Carla Beck’s plan to defeat Scott Moe

Carla Beck, leader of the Saskatchewan NDP, sits down with Nikki and Tom to talk about her strategy to defeat Scott Moe and her economic plan to spur Saskatchewan growth.

Carla launched her Grid and Growth plan more that two years before the next provincial election, due in October 2028, just before leaked information from inside SaskPower showed premier Scott Moe's coal-generation electricity plan would cost billions more than admitted and modelling proving it was the most expensive energy option. Carla also talks with Nikki and Tom about help the federal government can give to her Saskatchewan plan, and the significance of Scott Moe's cooling relationship with Alberta Premier Danielle Smith.

Also, Tom talks about new StatsCan data showing a stagnating Alberta average wage despite oil companies pump record volumes and high prices. Nikki reflects on the heat dome that sent temperatures soaring five years ago, leading to 619 deaths, and the unfinished work of preparing for another heat emergency.

Transcript

Welcome!

Nikki Hill 0:24

Welcome to Left, East to West with me, Nikki Hill.

Tom Parkin 0:27

And me, Tom Parkin, looking forward to our guest today, Nikki, someone I think is gonna defeat a conservative government and become a become a premier soon. And I love the part that she seems to have a plan to do it.

Nikki Hill 0:40

Yeah, and so we're excited both about the new premier potential there and to have Carla back join us today. So as listeners will know, Carla is the leader of the Saskatchewan NDP and the official opposition in Saskatchewan. She's been building a lot of momentum with her caucus around issues like affordability, healthcare, and energy use. So she's coming up, but first of all, we're gonna go to this week Below the Fold, checking a couple of important issues that didn't make national headlines.

Tom: Alberta's average wage stagnating despite record oil production

Nikki Hill 1:18

Tom, you picked up in some interesting shifts in Canadian wages that was pretty low profile last week, but you tell me that it has it's worried has you worried about the mood in Alberta and conservative identity.

Tom Parkin 1:32

Yeah, you know, Nikki, for years obviously Alberta workers enjoyed the highest average wage uh of any province. Uh and it was a magnet, the province was a magnet for workers across the country. Uh but in 2016, the average wage, including over time, was uh over $26. Then the next group was under $24 BC, Ontario, Quebec. So quite a large, um, quite a large gap. But last Thursday, SATSCAN released its survey of employment payroll and hours for April, and the data shows that that that story is over. Uh this April, the average hourly worker in BC, Ontario, and Quebec earned between one and two dollars more an hour than last year, than April of 2025. But in the same 12 months, the average Alberta wage just went up 11 cents. Uh 11 cents. Uh Alberta wage growth is stalled, and it's not just a one-year story. And over the 10 years, going back to April 2016, the average hourly wage has increased just 21% in Alberta. That's below the rate of inflation. It's now the that it was the lowest increase in that during that period of any province in Canada during that same period um Quebec average wage up 50%, BC up 40%, Ontario up 39%. So the average Alberta wage now ranks fourth in Canada, below the national average. Um, and this is a big change. So uh a falling you know, the the thing that you know is so incongruous about this is the falling average real wage comes despite Alberta oil fields production being at record levels, not just production at record levels, but at very high prices at record levels. Earlier this month, StatCan reported 87 million barrels of crude coming from Alberta's oil fields in March, up 2% from last March, and up an amazing 43% from the March of 10 years ago. But very clearly, this money from this record-setting production at very high prices is not trickling down to Albertans. It's not even trickling down to the Albertans in the oil and gas extraction industry, where the average wage is well down over the past 12 months, according to that Stats Can survey. And and just as an aside, that probably is not because individual workers' wages went down. It's probably because uh of a reduction in overtime and perhaps a lower employment of the highest skilled, highest paid skilled trades workers. But Nikki, if um if people want to take a look at all this raw data, the footnotes and the charts and this stuff, I posted on my Substack data shows. People didn't go Google data shows substack and they could look at the uh at the data. So where is Alberta's natural resource wealth going? Well, uh as Jim Stanford said to us last week, it doesn't take a PhD in economics to figure out that it's going to the oil companies. Well, the average hourly wage increase 21% over 10 years in Alberta, um, investors in Alberta's oil resources have made off like bandits. Uh over over the same 10 years, the stock price of Canadian natural resources is up 189%, about 21%, 189%, Synovis up 96%, Tech Resources 311%, Suncor, 116%, Imperial Oil, 239%. And I'll bet you most of their shareholders have never even been to Alberta. Yeah, Alberta UCP has incre created this incredible machine for sucking wealth out of Alberta and pipelining it to investors in Toronto, in New York, in the Cayman Islands, wherever, to the global elite. But the wage data shows the UCP model does not deliver for everyday people. And and it's more than that because there's one other, I think, striking piece in the Statsakan data that goes to this. What they do is a quarterly Canadian social study and ask the same questions over long periods of time. Um and over these ten years, Albertans have gone to them from being amongst the most upbeat Canadians about their futures to the absolute gloomiest. The gloomiest of of of any province. And I and I worry that that is a good mood to work with if your goal is to set people against each other. And I worry that it makes it a lot tougher if your goal is actually to pull people together for the project of trying to reverse this decline and restore Alberta's progress. So yeah, I'm Nikki, I'm worried about Alberta's future. The bright optimistic story that the PC's told for years and years is still being told by the UCP. But it's just stopped being true. And and obviously a lot of people understand that and they know they need to have a better choice in the UCP. But for others, you know, the story of affluent Alberta conservatism is some sort of identity, not something that they kind of figure they have a choice about. So it has to be true. Um and to displace the thought that the policy of conservative leaders have have ruined that identity, people lose themselves in theories of separation or expelling immigrants or some other weirdo thing that makes things worse. Uh think Brexit or or MAGA. Um so for these conservative identitarians, the most difficult thing to consider is that it was the conservatives who be who betrayed their future. And I uh I I do find that politically concerning, not just for people in Alberta, but but for our country.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Mm-hmm.

Nikki Hill 7:26

Yeah, and as you say, you know, it it does set up the stage for for looking elsewhere for sort of who's to blame for that. And I mean, certainly sitting here in BC, we always hear how how strong wages are in Alberta. That narrative just continues over the bar. But as you say, you know, BC seeing a lot of growth here that also doesn't get some of that credit. So changing the narratives is is going to be an important here.

Tom Parkin 7:48

Aaron Ross Powell Well, and and if I could, you know, I'd s I've said this to you, Nikki, many times. Um, if there was something I could change about the leadership's communication of the BC government, it would be like, you guys are doing like not I wouldn't say great, but you're doing pretty good good given the times. And and uh they need to figure a way out to talk about the idea that you know this is this you know, BC has been a growth leader. Um their wages are are are strong, and there's a lot of positives in BC. So, you know, you gotta you gotta sell, but you know what, you also you can't just make stuff up, and that's where uh, you know, the UCP story has run out. Anyway.

Nikki Hill 8:28

I'm pretty sure I've amplified it. A few BC ministers getting out that strong GDP number this week, so I think they're deep building.

Tom Parkin 8:35

They did do that. I noticed that. So they're trying to turn the corner. It's like, gosh.

Nikki Hill 8:40

How do you get it out over and over?

Tom Parkin 8:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've been

Nikki: work still to be done to protect from heat emergencies

Tom Parkin 8:45

thinking about um the 2021 Pacific Northwest heat dome and uh the slow pace of policy change to address that. Tell me a little bit more about what you're thinking.

Nikki Hill 8:58

Yeah, it's interesting. It does feel so long ago now, um, but only five years ago, late June 2021, uh, BC did experience this unprecedented heat dome that's in our memories now, but does feel distance as many things do, given that you know, we're still in pandemic times then. People have moved on or tried to move on from some of um the traumatic events that were happening in this time period. But this really was one of those. We had record-breaking temperatures around the province for several days, and then 619 people died in such a short period. And so I think, you know, as we hit the five-year anniversary, there are a number of studies and reports coming out that are telling us exactly what the impact was. But I think where we necessarily haven't necessarily seen the level of policy change. Again, you know, poly crises and governments trying to uh address many of them, but it was quite a remarkable period of time in terms of that impact. And and also in the past month or so, just spring in BC has been very hot. So I think a lot of people are again thinking about what hasn't changed and what could change. Um, that what I think is important too is you know, it wasn't just about extreme weather. There's really about an equal about inequality here in what happened and why 619 people passed in in that short period of time. It was a very severe human toll. And 98% died in their homes. So imagine that, you know, with the weather and you're in your home and you can't deal with it. A lot of those folks being over the age of 70, about 67%. And then many living alone in lower income neighborhoods being really critical there, where there weren't resources, there weren't neighbors, they were in isolation, perhaps, but also emergency systems just got overwhelmed. It was a case where ambulances couldn't keep up. But it was also a case, I think, where, you know, sort of the true scale of the crisis wasn't understood till it was over. It was the deadly days and the system couldn't respond. And then to understand exactly what happened, of course, you had to get through it. Um, but I think, you know, what's was clear from the start is that, you know, and there has been a lot of research that the strongest predictor of who actually died wasn't just age or health. It was kind of that combined measure of poverty and social isolation. So here you have survival and during extreme heat or extreme crisis, deep click high to income, the type of housing they're in, and that social connection to make sure that people were okay in that time. So it's like the unanticipated disaster. I actually remember really clearly for different reasons. We were, it was our moving day. So we were in the middle of moving. And so there was only an inkling that it was going to get hot. So, you know, we knew to take care of basic precautions. We had senior animals, we were, you know, trying to take care of poor movers and friends, keep them hydrated. But I even think I can think so clearly about the moment of finding out after how severe it had been as you're just getting through it with the resources to do so. And and really, I think even in government's been quite honest. And and former Premier John Horgan spoke a fair bit about this. Like you can only take the the weather reports were uh and somewhat delayed. You can the preparation ahead of time wasn't there. And again, going back to the last month or so in BC, where we're having these spikes in heat, um, you know, uh how you look at policy change in the future is really important. And it's also a time where something that has hit the national radar, which was the destruction of an entire town, Lytton, completely lost to the a wildfire in the same time period, was in this zone as well. And all the aftermath of what is a you know pretty significant um monumental change here in terms of losing 90% of a town itself. I think the interesting thing though, too, and there's been new studies is uh that haven't really been leveled up in the last bit, is it wasn't just human costs. So it actually reshaped in the few days ecosystems around the province. There is, you know, marine life that has died in massive numbers, complete, like 92% of uh species of mussels wiped out, and you know, things that are all needed within their ecosystems. And so about three quarters of species, if we think about a three or four day period, negatively affected, even down to trees still feeling, you know, as we have forestry industry crisis and looking at the trade implications and impacts on communities, there actually was a really big impact from 2021 on trees and forests around the province as well that has to be calculated in here. So I think the big thing has people are looking at now is like we hit the five-year mark. What, you know, we know that these clear takeaways are it's not one-off events. We're looking at Europe right now and the level of heat waves that they're going through, people in the UK just really similarly not being prepared in their homes for the sort of heat that they're facing right now and this ongoing threat here. But also, of course, we're seeing the increase in affordability challenges, housing crisis, and then growing socialization since uh social isolation since the pandemic that is going to continue to put vulnerable people at risk and needs to have that full policy initiative. So there has been movement. I think you know, we have to give uh provincial, federal, and municipal governments credit here for seeing. I've certainly seen as we hit the five-year anniversary, municipalities talking about the changes they've tried to make. On a recent show, we were talking to Shauna Sylvester about the Keep It Cool initiative, which is an important one to try to very well coordinated, supported, to transition those low-rise apartments to a heat pump use. So could make a huge difference here for some of the people that we were talking about who could be vulnerable. And then we've also seen, you know, policy response evolve in change for Lytton itself, particularly around uh seeing new legislation to figure out how to collaborate better and faster with indigenous communities, which was significantly part of Lytton and the region, where indigenous communities response. And then how small communities need to be able to have the systems to support their own recovery. And Lytton, I would, you know, I think is very clear where that recovery isn't complete yet. Five years later, there's a lot of work still there to do. There was another fire in the region recently, just ongoing tragedy for an entire population there and a community. But we are, you know, I think the other thing that we've seen in terms of policies that haven't been changed is BC policy solutions. Uh, friends, we've had Aglika Igno Iganova on our show early on. They released a paper calling um for updated heat exposure regulations to better protect workers that have been advocated on for a while. So those are, you know, proactive changes that need to happen. Um, but I think, you know, we need to keep coming back to that core lesson, to that core lesson here is that extreme heat, it isn't just an environmental issue. It isn't just a climate change issue, it really is a social issue. And we need to ensure that people can stay in place and stay cool no matter what their income, age, housing, and that policy change needs to be coordinated across all levels of government. We're gonna see, you know, and I think we're uh a lot of concern right now with the heat spiking, that we might see some of these repeat patterns from 2021 again.

Tom Parkin 16:16

Aaron Powell Sure. Yeah. Um these things seem to be happening more and more. Um Nikki, the 690, 691 piece of people died, I think you said. So is this mostly like just a case of people being in their houses and and dehydrating and being just too hot and nobody checking on them?

Nikki Hill 16:36

Aaron Powell Yeah, and the state of their buildings being too hot and yeah, and no, and they're and no air conditioning. Yeah, emergency response not being able to respond. But also I think I was reading something else that like the space of time in which it took people to die was very short. Um so and then the emergency response wasn't able to get there in time because they were overwhelmed, or if they're isolated, nobody knows that they're overwhelmed. I think the other space here is that there's still not as much of a proactive preparation. I've talked to advocates in the downtown east side who can't get, you know, in advance. Almost like before the crisis happens, trying to get water and air conditioning and fans and things to people is is not the priority in funding. So it is really uh in many ways still kind of a retroactive or in the space of responding, but when everybody else is trying to get access to water and fans and all of the things you need.

Tom Parkin 17:29

Yeah, yeah. Which is why you're supposed to, I mean, why we need uh emergency management plans for these kind of things. So you can kind of go, okay, this is we have this plan written down. Let's activate it right now. We don't have time to think about what we're supposed to do.

Nikki Hill 17:41

And the right tools, right?

Tom Parkin 17:43

We should have been planning that a long time ago and made sure that the proper authorities have the proper powers to make things move fast.

Nikki Hill 17:49

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 17:50

When uh anyway, it's fascinating.

Nikki Hill 17:52

And that's what we're seeing in the U UK and Europe too, right now, right? Where you know there is not you fans are not necessarily the tool that you need for safety. Like there's uh also massive incidents going on if you don't have that air conditioning or the heat pump. So it's it is um, you know, you look across jurisdictions, the solutions seem like they're there. It's just getting them implemented.

Tom Parkin 18:11

Yeah, it's it's putting to putting it together. Yeah. Okay. Well, um word uh uh something to think about as we head into summer. Just uplifting, Nikki, thank you. Yeah, I know we're well, but let's take a quick break. Yeah, that was the downer. Um, but something a little more uplifting is is we're gonna talk with Carla Beck now, and she's got a plan about how she's gonna win this election. She's gonna get rid of Scott Moe, and she has a plan to govern the province, which is something she's cooked up two years in advance, is already talking to people, so I'm kind of inspired to talk to her about that. So let's took take a quick break and we'll be right back with her.

Carla Beck's plan to defeat Scott Moe

Tom Parkin 19:01

Welcome to Left East West Carl Abeck. Great to have you here.

SPEAKER_05 19:05

Great to be with you.

Tom Parkin 19:07

Yeah. Now, you you grew up in the Weyburn area, famous for uh as famous as the writing of another NDP leader, Tommy Douglas, went to university in Regina, graduated in social work, and did that for about 20 years before the thought of running and winning in Regina Lakeview. 2016 you won, 2022, re-elected, uh became the Sask NDP leader in 2024. And in that election, delivered a bit of a wake-up notice to Scott Moe, picking up 13 seats for the NDP. Um, and I remember that opening ad that you did in that campaign where you were there as a a baseball player. Um, and I thought that was very clever, actually, because it tied into something personal that also suggested that you were maybe had your eye on the ball and were going to score some runs for for Saskatchewan, a lot of different things people can uh read into it. But that's kind of true, right? You uh do have a can you tell us about your passion for baseball?

SPEAKER_05 20:02

Well, we we took a bit of a swing with that ad, if you'll pardon the pun. Um baseball. So my family, I grew up in Lang, um, about halfway between Regina and Weyburn, uh, obviously where Tommy Douglas uh first served. And um baseball was a huge part of growing up. Town of 200. We had a senior ball team. Um, I don't know if you can see my my brothers and my dad back here behind me in their Lang Angels ball uh ball uniforms. Um it was a big part of growing up. Sports days, uh, ball diamonds. Um my dad and my grandpa are both in the baseball hall of fame, and the Beck family um is in the Hall of Fame. So I am in the Hall of Fame in the Saskatchewan Baseball Hall of Fame. Um I would love to tell you it's because I was such a great player. Um I could hit. I'm a pretty good scorekeeper, but uh we've got more talented people in the family than I was. But I could hit a ball. Um but at 50, I whatever it was when we we did that ad, I wasn't sure um if I was going to be able to hit it. So we had some coaching before and and took some practice swings. Um I said if it's bad, my brother's gonna be the first to tell me. And yeah, I guess the first uh the first message was hey, great ad. The second was my brother. Um, well, hey, I saw your ad. I could have given you some tips.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Oh, that's cool. Thanks, buddy.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Yeah, no, but baseball's been great to us. Um got a couple of nephews that are playing in college ball in the US, one who's draft eligible this year. Pretty excited about that. Uh coach my kids in in ball and t ball. Um what's not to love about baseball? And memorable campaign ads. So yeah, you're and the ad the ad worked, you know. It was um I wasn't sure. I said just don't let me um you know look ridiculous out there. It was uh they won awards with it. And really what we needed to do was introduce me in a way that um we didn't have a lot of time. I had just become leader in 2022, so um, we didn't have a lot of time um and it it hit the mark. And uh it's one of the things I get asked about quite a lot, especially when I'm down east always about that. Oh, that's great.

Tom Parkin 22:24

Well, yeah, it it it was different. Yeah, you know, uh it was this is not just uh another pol uh political ad by another politician. It was it was different, so it's uh kind of stood out, and I thought that was interesting.

Nikki Hill 22:35

It was a lot of fun.

Tom Parkin 22:36

Yeah.

Nikki Hill 22:37

And human. Okay. And so now um bringing back in the human as well will be big in the pre-election period. So you got your focus on election expected in October next year, and you need to win four or five, four or so more writings from Mo's Skatchan Party to take the majority. So obviously, we're seeing Mo have some problems here, particularly around some of the issues you've been working on, like powering the electricity grid, and there have been some leaks about big costs. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Yeah, so we are about 850 days ahead of the next provincial election. Um, but this team hasn't stopped working really since that um since that election um where we came so close. Um, you know, one of the things that people will tell you in in politics, I think you've uh probably uh heard this many times, is you'll know when when you're getting closer, there'll be signs. One of them is people start sending you leaks, manila envelopes, obviously, how people usually describe them, but yeah these days they come uh electronically. Um we we had a right after the election, the SaaS Party had really a surprise announcement that I I don't think anyone, or very few people saw coming, um, which was to diverge from the the plan that the country had um coming out of uh Stephen Harper's government that we were going to transition off of coal. Um right after the election, January 2025, uh the minister stood in in the power plant in Esteban and suggested, no, we're gonna burn coal forever. Um very different time. It was uh was a shock to to everyone, I think, including some people at SaaS Power. And we um we received a a leak document. Someone took a really a hell of a risk, honestly, to send this to us because they felt that strongly about what uh the path that the government was going down. At that point, the government was suggesting that this was gonna cost $900 million. Um I think there were skeptics about that, but you know, it they're they're not the most transparent government, so that we were going with their numbers. Um the true cost in that briefing document that was leaked to us is $26 billion. So just for context, in Saskatchewan, the the whole of the provincial budget right now is just over $22 billion. Um the debt from 1905 until now, um over 90% of that from conservative governments, but it stands the the total debt of the province is $43 billion. Yeah, $26 billion on one plan.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

Refurbish coal. That is not a whole plan for energy generation into the future, or um that is to refurbish the coal plant um for fuel for for that coal plant and a little bit for transmission. Um all of a sudden, we have a huge contrast between the plan of the current government and our plan, um which we just happen to have been working on for the last year, which it which is our grid and growth plan. So um this I think was extraordinary for a few reasons. One of them um being the cost uh of this this refurbishment. Um the other is that people in this province, I think, are are signaling every day that they're looking for change and that people are starting to um speak out about that.

Tom Parkin 26:14

Yeah, and you actually put out your own economic plan called the Grid and Growth Plan um before this all started to become public, correct?

SPEAKER_05 26:25

Well, we were working, we were working on it. Uh there's there's there's a few lines that um intersect here, but you know, we've been talking about this for for some time, certainly after the last election, we were talking about um honestly some of the polarization that exists within the energy generation and um and environmental space, that um it's really, really difficult to make the decisions that need to be made today in in this hyper um polarized, this very heated environment. We we knew that we needed a plan here in Saskatchewan um for energy generation, not just for today, but but into the future. Um, if you'll indulge me, a Greek proverb, uh my maiden speech was based around um the Greek proverb that societies grow great when old men and women plant trees under whose shade they shall never sit. And we knew that a lot of decisions, a lot of that planning, that planting, if you will, in this province that we saw with with previous governments here, um wasn't happening under the SaaS party. That there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made at SaaS Power, um, about refurbishment of the grid, uh, about how we're going to generate um energy or electricity in this province, the plan, what was actually the plan to get off coal when we assumed that they had one up until last January. And we really, and Alina will describe it this way, our shadow minister for SaaS Power, um she engaged with one of the one of the top companies, one of the top modelers in in the country, um to run some scenarios. I think about two different dozen different scenarios, um, with really the only the only guardrail being that we didn't want to be a net importer of power. We wanted to be self-reliant when it came to power. Um and basically from there, I I say, you know, um, it was a leap of faith. She said it was a Jesus take the wheel moment, and we let the model. So they ran all of the models based on based on the government's own public facing numbers. Um, again, at that point, it was $900 million, which we know um has been rather inflicted since then. And it could have come back that coal, keeping coal, um, burning coal was going to be the cheapest option. That was a risk that that we ran. Um it didn't it wasn't something that we we thought necessarily we we should be doing, or you know, but we we let the model take um right. You know, we we we let the model modelers do their work. And what what came back was that even at that $900 million mark, the the government's plan was going to be double. Um the the other scenarios that were there would double people's power rates. Um, you know, so if you're looking at this from um an emissions standpoint, if you're looking at this from a cost standpoint, which really was what we were looking at, what is the best path to affordable um power in this province, predictable power in this province? Um theirs was the most expensive plan, even before the $26 billion. So what we sorry, when we presented four scenarios basically that would uh eventually get us off coal, although we still are running those assets to end of life. We don't have an option. We run we the the the the work between here and there has not been done in this province. Um, and uh a a huge increase in renewables, um, b things like battery storage, and we're going to need uh natural gas um to build up natural gas uh for for some of that transition eventually with a path to nuclear. So that was that was our plan that came out uh this spring. Um and and maybe uh we'll we'll get a chance to talk about a little more.

Tom Parkin 30:17

Oh, absolutely. I just wanted to ask you though, this there's a lot of focus in the plan on the grid on producing electricity that residents of the province need. What about the broader economy or the broader vision that you that you've put in that plan? Can you just tell us a little bit about this?

SPEAKER_05 30:33

You know, we we really yeah, there aren't a lot of things that I'll say that uh the premier and I agree on uh on any given day, but but this is one place we do agree. Saskatchewan is sitting on a pile of opportunity. We really do have what the world needs right now. If you're looking at critical minerals, if you're looking at uranium, if you're looking at um, you know, feeding the world, all of those things. There's an incredible amount of opportunity here in Saskatchewan. Um, one of the things that is really going to be needed to unlock that potential is going to be reliable, affordable power. Um, all of those things that I've described are not going to be possible without without having that that predictable power. And uh, you know, along earlier this spring as well, um, the government did announce two increases for for power in the province. And another one of those signs, there was a letter to the to the rate review panel that came from from some of the biggest energy um users in our province, some of the biggest businesses in our province saying that not only was this um lack of notice when it came to rate increases um going to impact their businesses, uh existing businesses in the province, that this was going to potentially impact the ability to attract more business, more investment to our province. And that is certainly what we've heard. Um, you know, we've been at conferences around uh around the province, but also uh outside uh outside of the country um and in other provinces, um, you know, the unpredictability in in that power generation space has has been a bit of a hindrance. And so that that is part of what um what we were doing with this model. The other thing um on the other side, perhaps, or or also part of this plan was um the need to get this plan out early to start building trust in with the public, um, with stakeholders. And I I will say for a you know, even even with our doubled numbers, um for for an opposition party, I think 900 days ahead of the next provincial election to do something like this, um we we haven't hidden it. It is uh available grid and growth uh.ca. We've invited input uh with stakeholders, with um municipal groups, with farm groups, uh, with industry, chambers of commerce, labor. Uh we've provided technical briefings. And um I think this is how we rebuild the trust in this space. The the decisions that we're gonna make with our power grid are going to outlive all of us. Um there will be um none of us left, you know, uh when when we see the the end of of some of these decisions. And I think the people of this province, I trust the people of this province um to look at our plan, um to be able to kick the tires on it, to look under the hood, if you will, and we're really proud of it. And potentially we've there there may be things that we've missed. Um we're 900 days almost ahead of an election. We've got opportunity to make the plan better. And I would contrast that with the current government's plan um that was announced just a month, a few months after an election in which they didn't speak of this at all, uh, their coal refurbishment plan. Um, some of the indications from from the leaked documents are that they've been working on this for some time. So we have a secretive, very expensive plan to refurbish coal um in this province, and we have a grid and growth plan that lays out for the people of this province um exactly what a Saskatchewan NDP government would do in this space. Um I would say it's not only the product, but it's the process that is showing the people of this province they have a choice.

Nikki Hill 34:37

Yeah, let's dig into the process a bit. So, I mean, you know, there is at sometimes benefit to being in opposition. I worked uh for the BCNDP both through government and opposition days, but I think there was an ability there in the opposition days to have this sort of widespread consultation process as well before elections where you're gonna be competitive to get that level. So, how did you actually engage MLAs, party, stakeholders in this process of building a plan like this? You spoke to other stakeholder groups too that you brought in.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

We did. Um, we we had folks who had worked rather recently in some cases with SaaS Power. We had industry experts, we had uh folks who were active in the environmental space, we we worked with labor groups. Um we weren't exclusive in terms of who we invited in. Uh, once we had the modeling, once we had um sort of a a sense of where the plan was going, we we continued to invite in stakeholders and refine um what we eventually released uh this earlier this spring. Yeah. And as I said, it's not um it's not just here's the plan and you know, go out and sell the plant. Um it's been a continued process. Um uh technical briefings with stakeholders, town halls, um, meetings with with various stakeholder groups, again, um labor groups, and inviting people to look at it and expla uh explicitly saying if you know if there are things that you think we missed or things that uh we've gotten wrong, um let us know. It's a refinement process at this point. Um I'm I'm not sure if others have have done it like this. Um, but I as I said, I think this is too important. I want to have a wide consensus, wide buy-in by the time the next election, so that we can actually implement um the things that we're talking about. And it's not, you know, written growth is one of them. Um we're also taking on a little project um around your care your say, which is, you know, re rebuilding health care, which is a small project. Small project, yeah. No problems for anyone there, yeah. Right. And and I and you know, I as as I said it with that with that project as well, we just um released the the first interim report. Right. Um I have come away from all of these meetings um being more confident than ever um that we do have a bright future here in Saskatchewan, that Saskatchewan people are still the people that I remember growing up with that care about their neighbors, that want to look long term, um, that are willing to, you know, look at what needs to be done and dig in and get her done. Um it has been it's been an incredible process. And you know, for a long for a long time, I think a lot of people didn't feel like there was a choice. Um, that maybe things were bad, but this is how it had to be. Um I I think we're showing people that they have a choice and uh they not only do they deserve better, um, but better is on offer. So that's really the project for the that and a few other things that we're doing over the next number of years. Yeah. Sounds like both choice and voice you're trying to give people too. Choice and voice, yeah. And and also a a sense that um I I'll I'll speak personally. I don't think I'm the only one who feels like this. Um, the kind of divisive politics that we've seen, particularly post-2020, um, I don't think it's getting us to great places. I don't like that, you know, you've got families who who can't have a civil discussion sometimes around the dinner table if if certain topics come up. That's not we've always had differences of opinion here in Saskatchewan, I think in in other places as well. Um I think that there's a way to do this differently, and that's that's what we're showing people. There there is a path forward that addresses the issues that most people care about um and delivers better better results for Saskatchewan people. So um and we've got a team that works incredibly hard, which uh which which helps a lot.

Tom Parkin 38:57

Yeah. One of the things I think that that's interesting about what you're the process that you're taking on here is it it it it shows uh some faith in the in the voters and in the people of the province, which is kind of showing a vulnerability in a way, but it's also showing your trust in them, which can be reciprocated to you. Um and that's kind of an interesting uh uh fusion of of policy generation and stakeholder management or or or just good politics, coalition building, however you want to look at it. It's kind of it's kind of both at once. It's a it's a building process, which uh I I think is um you know I think it's it's very it's a very interesting way to go about things. And uh I remember you've got this thing out early, and I I remember way, way back when uh when Mike Harris came to run Ontario, he got out there really, really early with a plan. That was obviously nothing like your plan. It ended up being a real disaster for our province. But the benefit of having the plan out early was that his candidates knew the lines, they knew what their policy was. The party members could read it, they could debate it, they understood what the party was trying to do, the PC Party of Ontario. Um, and so this plan, uh, you know, for you guys is becomes uh uh a path forward that clarifies what you're about. Like it shows that you're serious about governing and you're serious about uh being a uh competitive force uh in in the elections whenever they come. Um But the key there is I think, you know, like how do we make how do you how do you what is your thinking about how to use this as a as a tool for letting more people know about you know what is your direction for the province?

SPEAKER_05 40:45

Yeah. A few things there, and and and uh I'm I'm a bit tickled that you you saw that there, because that certainly is part of part of what we're doing here. Um and it is a vulnerability. Um we're taking uh, you know, as as I mentioned, Alina talks about this grid and growth plan uh as a bit of a you know Jesus take the wheel moment. Um it could have it could have gone differently. And we are um making ourselves vulnerable and and putting this out ahead of time, allowing, you know, the other side to um, you know, say what they're going to say about it.

Tom Parkin 41:21

Umx at it too.

SPEAKER_05 41:23

It's made a bit easier when their plan is revealed to uh you know the conversation. Massive vulnerabilities, yes.

Tom Parkin 41:30

Yeah, they may not want to poke too much. Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_05 41:33

But but it really is rooted in a deep love and and belief in the people of this province, um that they are reasonable people who can, when presented with reasonable things, um, right, will make reasonable choices. Really, really that's that's it. And I I am very happy to tell you that um that vulnerability um has been rewarded time and time again um when we've been out meeting with people across this province, whether that's on this issue or that is talking about healthcare. Um the biggest thing we had going against us, frankly, um, that I could feel in the last election, that people knew things were bad. Um, people had a lot of concerns, but they weren't sure about us. They weren't sure what we were gonna do. And what they did know about us often was uh the result of 20 years of rather effective messaging by the SaaS party, if I'm I'm being very frank. Yeah. Um we need to tell our own story. Um, we needed to build trust and we needed to do that quickly. Um, the first thing we started saying as a whole team, we've got to say the same thing in every room. This province is too small. People are already too likely to be distrustful of politicians. Um let's just say this, and and even when you know you're not gonna make everyone happy, you've got to say the same thing in every room. Um, I don't fear debate. I like debate. Uh I grew up, you know, in a in a big family um around a lot of baseball and hockey players. I, you know, I like a good desktop. All of those things. Yeah. Um I fear apathy. That's what I fear. When I'm talking to people on the doorstep, if they want to argue, you know, we we can win most of those fights or at least have a good time doing that. Uh I fear when people say you're all the same or it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:20

And that's not true. And so that's that's really what this project has been about. And as I said, it has been rewarded in many, many ways. I um I can't believe I get to do what I I get to do most days.

Nikki Hill 43:35

So let's talk a little bit, you know, obviously right now and and probably in the last 18 months more than ever, that the provincial federal integration is so important. So, what is the federal role that you're seeing here in terms of policy funding levers you need pushed in Ottawa to make a Saskatchewan plan more successful? And in the context of, you know, seeing where we're on the cusp here in BC of the major projects agreement, it looks like. Between Beastie and the federal government, we've got Alberta's next steps coming out. Where do you see the federal Saskatchewan rule?

SPEAKER_05 44:06

Yeah. There there are a few places for sure that we could and I think would be really, really helpful for some federal investment here. One of the things that I think most relevant to the Grid and Growth Plan are intertis. Making sure that we've got an electricity generation and transmission system that's going to work east to west west and to the north. A lot of what we would be looking to develop here, a lot of um a lot of the deposits in in this province are north. And I know that's the case uh up into the territories. We've seen some uh movement around the port of Churchill. Um I think those intertie um pieces would would be an important part of this. Um transmission infrastructure. And then it, you know, as we move out to in the nuclear space, I think that is uh a place where um, you know, you would need to see federal federal investment. I know there have been some announcements recently. I think that's important, especially if you're um, you know, looking at I mean, I think at this point everything is on the table, everything from full skill like a candy reactor, uh, which definitely would need um, you know, a larger uh role for the federal government. Um to SMRs where where the the federal government is putting a lot of time and attention right now. Um but again, that's uh that's down the path into the future when when those things become um viable and economical to bring online. Um the other piece that's huge, um, you know, one of the things when we're talking to people about uh how much we need to build not only in this province but in in the country, um I think that there are a lot of head nods. Everyone agrees, yes, we need to be building, yes, this is the moment. You know, we've learned our lesson. We need to make sure we're diversifying and moving east-west. Um but the quiet thing that people will will often say as well as who the hell is going to build it? Um the labor force piece. We need we need a real uh strategy to skill up uh workers right across this bus, um, skilled workers, um, you know, folks who are going to be working in in this space, um, you know, need need training. Um you need to be ensuring that you're you're bringing people into the to be able to take on these jobs. Um and I do think there will be um a lot of opportunity here uh in the short term and the long term in Saskatchewan, but we need to make sure that we're we're putting some time and attention into skills training.

Nikki Hill 46:45

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

So those are those would be a few a few places. Um I I'm I'm sure Lena would have uh a whole list of other things as well, but uh the there there are there are a few pa places there that uh we'd love to see some federal investment.

unknown 47:00

Okay.

Tom Parkin 47:00

And on the ground, you you are really the last election you drew so close uh to to Mo, uh to Scott Moe's SAS party, didn't quite make it. Is it four seats difference? You wouldn't you need to gain four seats to to become a majority?

SPEAKER_05 47:16

Four seats, sixteen hundred votes. Yeah. Right. Okay, but but it was counting.

Tom Parkin 47:21

Yeah, no one's counting. So it's it's obviously very tight. And um you know, if you take a look at the map, I'm not gonna press you on it any particulars, but you take a look at the map, you can say, well, geez, you know, we just need a few more seats to become a majority NDP government in Saskatchewan again. Uh put Carla Beck in the executive council office, make her the premier of a province. Um that sounds like a pretty good thing, but you know, there's these voters. So what do you know about the swing voters in those key seats? What do they want for themselves? What do they want for the province? Um, what kind of change are they looking for? Well, if you're speaking out directly to that target group, yeah, what what would be your pitch?

SPEAKER_05 48:04

You know, um one of the things that we noted ahead of the last election was despite, you know, some obvious differences, um, a lot's made not just here in Saskatchewan, but an urban rural divide, um, uh north south divide. Uh, all of these divisions um that when you got out and talked to people, and this was president present in polling, but also um more importantly, especially with the small sample size in some of these communities, doorstep to doorstep, the top issues really were the top issues no matter where you were in the province. Right. Uh maybe, you know, how they were talked about or the local flavor was a bit different. Um, but the cost of living is the number one issue in this province, continues to be. We have the highest rates of financial anxiety anywhere in the country right now. Um between four and five times the um rate of mortgages and arrears, for example. So so cost of living is an issue right across the province. Um, adjacent to that, of course, is uh, you know, jobs and economy. Um people um are they don't just feel like they're working harder and harder and falling further and further behind. They really are that purchasing power. Um, you know, we the amount of people that we've talked to who, you know, have have worked their whole lives, who've never really had to worry about taking a calculator to the grocery store, find themselves putting items back, or getting emotional about talking about buying groceries, or not being able to put their kids in hockey or or dance, um, take a little vacation. You know, that that's real. And it's born out, as I said, both in in polling, but but in in so many conversations. Um, healthcare is is a huge issue. Um we have the lowest rate of uh people who have access to primary care, which really is the the basis of the whole system. And um we have emergency rooms in rural Saskatchewan that are closing without without warning in many cases because of lack of lack of staff. I've heard those stories, yeah. It's and it's dangerous, yeah. Yeah, I mean, even in some some cases, I know of two for sure, where people would be directed by a a piece of paper at the ER door to another emergency room, only to find that that emergency room is also closed. Right. Um, you know, these are dangerous, dangerous situations. Um, and they affect voters here in Regina Lakeview that uh that I represent, they affect voters um home, uh, you know, just south of here, they they affect voters right across the province. Um, and and the the issues around crime and community safety um are are increasing in our province as well. So, you know, having being able to answer to um all of those issues and and have something on offer for people, I think is is incredibly important. Um but the other observation I'll make, and especially and when I became leader, I really, really had a sense that we had to get into a lot of places that we hadn't been for a long time um and start telling our own story. Um even if we had the objectively, if it if it existed, objectively the best plan, the plan that would fix healthcare, the plan that would do all of these things. Um if people don't know you, if they don't trust you, uh if they don't think most importantly you care about them, it doesn't matter what's in that platform. It doesn't matter what's there. You have to get out there, you have to meet with people, you have to um be able to form a little bit of trust and uh especially in a place as relational as as Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan in particular, um, before you can start talking about some of the ideas and policies. So that's really been the the process. I I I say to people, if if we had 20 minutes with everyone in the province, I am confident we would win. Um I've got some math geeks on my on my team. Uh we did the math. And unfortunately, and we can't do it. But we've been looking really hard to to go out and build that trust uh community by community. Um, and talk about the things that they care about. So really it's it's not fancy. It's a lot of work. Um, but but that's how we've gone about it.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Yeah.

Nikki Hill 52:24

So I always think of um uh John Horgan sort of used to have something along the lines of, I can't remember that the exact quote, even though we said it all the time, was along the lines of a lot of new Democrats in DC, they just don't know it yet, right? So it's that time to have conversations would be amazing. Um hey, let's just into those things that are heating up as well nationally. So watching Scott Moe there take a step back from his support for Daniel Smith and Alberta separatists. What do you think? Is this a matter of conviction strategy? What do you think about where that relationship's at and what it means for the province right now?

SPEAKER_05 52:58

Yeah. You know, I have um I've been asked this question a couple of times in terms of uh, you know, the relationship between Scott Moe and Daniel Smith. Um, you know, certainly we have watched um often in horror at different times uh this Mo's Moe and his government followed suit, you know, whether that was the Sask First Act or uh, you know, discriminary discriminatory bills against kids in schools, uh, you know, trans kids in particular. But um, you know, the list goes on and on and on. The use of the notwithstanding clause, like it was meant to be sprinkled everywhere. Um, you know, that has been um the relationship that we've seen between the between the two of them. Um he's been quieter, uh, perhaps in in terms of his support. Um I do think he needs to be showing more leadership than what we're seeing right now. I don't know that it's enough to just be silent in when it comes to um issues like this, like separation. Um I think it's important um to talk about what the consequences would be of this. It's uh he's and he's been really tepid on on his response, um you know, suggesting that he was not going to tell Albertans what to do or, you know, that he would follow the process. Uh there's this is I understand there's a way to talk about this that is not going to uh inflame, but uh, you know, going to um invite people to understand what the consequences are of separation. Um I understand that there are some very real grievances here, uh as there are in Alberta with, you know, and frustrations, long-standing frustrations with the federal government. All of that is the case. But as a leader who who says uh that he wants to keep the country together, um I think he needs to step up and he needs to be a little more explicit about that. Yeah, um in a way that's effective. Um but I'm not going to give him, and I I certainly don't give uh Premier Smith a a pass either. Um when it suggested, well, she has to do this or he has to do this, or his base will be angry. Well, sometimes you you've got to say what the right thing is. Um I think this is one of those occasions. I think the stakes are too high for him to um you know be sort of silent in in in his support or his um um his want to keep the country together.

Tom Parkin 55:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean uh Carlo, this is just my own personal observation, but I've always found that people from Saskatchewan are I think f feel very deeply about their Canadian connection.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 55:36

Um and uh a lot of Albertans do too, and it'd just be uh such such a shame uh if people started turning their back on that. It would just be uh be crushing, I think, for this country.

SPEAKER_05 55:47

Yeah. So anyway, and and I mean there are some loud voices. Um I get it. Um however, I think that's where where the leadership has to come in. Um there, you know, if there's a silent majority out there, I think I think people need need to be um organizing. I think they need to be effective. Um, you know, the the comparison that comes up all the time is Brexit, you know, where people woke up and so shoot, what have we done now? Exactly. I don't want to be in that situation here. Um this is you know, we know that even talk of separation, and certainly we've heard that from from industry from here and in Alberta, um, is putting uh a bit of a damper on investment, you know. Predictability You know, back to the fundamentals of our good and growth plan. You know, we need predictability, we need a long-term view. Certainty, yeah. This is not helping. So um it's time to speak out about those things. I think there I I will give that there is a way to do this that doesn't inflame and and um add fuel to to the fire. Um, but it's the time to talk about exactly what's at stake and and not um not be too cute about that. So again, I I understand that there's a sense that maybe they've they've separated uh paths a little bit. Um I'd like to see more. I'd like to see more clarity and um him take a stronger role. Right.

Tom Parkin 57:14

Well, Carla, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 57:17

Thank you.

Tom Parkin 57:18

And uh do you have a you have a convention this fall? And we do, we do and then uh I guess actually your election is 2028, right?

SPEAKER_05 57:26

2028, yeah.

Tom Parkin 57:27

2028, not next year, but a year following. So you've got two conventions. You're really ahead of the ball. So that's good for good for you of having uh having your your plan in place so early and getting out there and doing this work. I I hope we can have the chance to check in again. Uh I hope so too. Voters go to the polls, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:45

And certainly if you ever find yourself this way, um come come stop in. Yeah, we love that.

Tom Parkin 57:50

We'll do.

SPEAKER_05 57:51

Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Wonderful to talk to you both. Thank you.

Tom Parkin 57:56

Okay. We're gonna take a quick break and be right back with Love It or Heave It.

Tom is heaving "mythbusting" because it perpetrates myths

Nikki Hill 58:11

Before we wrap up, we've come to the part of the show that we like to call Love It or Heave It, about something one of us loves and wants to keep, and often something we want to heave and forever forget. So what do you have this week, Tom?

Tom Parkin 58:24

Well, I'm gonna go off on a little bit of a, you know, semi-rant, I guess. Um I I'm asking people to please stop myth busting, okay? Um today there's more myth masquerading as fact than you know we've ever had. And a lot of it is pretty vile and pretty socially corrosive, and obviously we need to fight it. I was on a unions webpage the other day, and that's when I I lost it, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna rant about this for a sec. And they and they had the 10 myths about unions on one of their pages. I I know it was well intended. Uh uh, but you know, the bold headlines of the pieces succinctly stated the ten arguments why unions are bad, and then in small text underneath it, rather long, were the explanations of why those statements were were incorrect. Now, I I know unions want to train their activists and staff to respond to anti-union attacks, and they so they create these myth busting tools. But, you know, honestly, uh my opinion is uh for what it's worth, don't. There's something better you can do. And I something that always left an impression on me was a kind of classic book that was written by an American communications service, George Lakoff. And he talked about this um problem that that the humans humans are not strictly rational. We think about topics in implicit association with other thoughts. So this idea that a thought is framed by other thoughts, and that's what gives it meaning. So anytime you repeat a topic within that existing frame, such as when you're myth busting, it actually kind of reactivates that that bad framing uh and reinforces in your mind uh the existing meaning, even when it's done as rebuttal, even when it's uh intended uh to change people's minds. So, you know, my plea would be it is okay to say uh I just don't I I don't see it that way, uh, and then move on to how you do see it. Uh that is a completely normal thing to do, uh especially when rebutting gets you nowhere, or worse, it strengthens the opinion that you uh uh that you oppose. And you know, i i if we are activists uh in a movement, uh it is literally our job to change hearts and minds. So please let's lead by putting out our goals in positive frames, and we can just heave rebutting the nasty things that some nasty person said about us.

Nikki Hill 1:00:52

Okay, taken. All right.

Tom Parkin 1:00:55

How about you, Nikki? What's in your mind this week?

Nikki: Heaving that Indigenous leaders keep needing to explain why we need modern treaties

Nikki Hill 1:00:58

Well, I want to give a lot of credit right at the top to Comax First Nation Chief Counselor Nicole Rempel, who publicly called out Federal Conservative leader Pierre Polyeb after his recent visit to BC. We've seen Polly Eb a lot here in BC, uh, coincidentally lately. So I wonder what's going on right now. Um we did touch on this a little bit on the last show. We were actually recording while Polyev was starting a press conference on private property rights here in BC. And that really fits into a broader pattern we've seen and we're talking about on the show, which is leaning hard in those divisive narratives similar to what we've seen with the from the BC conservatives as well. And what we're seeing when Polyev keeps landing in our province and driving some of the same messages as we see his polling concerns continue. So Polyev held a press conference saying he and other conservative MPs, so speaking for his caucus, would oppose the ratification of the Comox First Nations Treaty. So it's a treaty that's already just moved through the BC legislature this spring, received royal assent in BC before the session wrapped up in May. So now this process, it moves to the federal stage, gets ratified by Parliament, receives federal royal assent, and then COMOX First Nations, BC, and Canada are going to work together or would work together to get an effective date and move towards implementation in the treaty process. So, and when that's done because of BC's lack of treaties, Comax will actually just become the ninth modern treaty nation in BC. So, you know, we've got some work here to do still. Um, but we it also feels like Polyev's continuing to use uh reconciliation and DRIPA, similarly we've seen through the BC conservative leadership race and following as harder for himself, um, a bigger push to get some polling traction here. So coming back into BC, amplifying issues in a way that we all know is fueling anti-Indigenous sentiment in communities and concerning voters on issues like private property rights, which are spreading so that disinformation. So I think that is really what made Chief Counselor Rempel's response so important. Uh, she pointed out that Polyeb hadn't even reached out to the COMAX First Nations and said directly he was stoking fear and racism. And she also said, which I think really lands, that if he had taken the time to actually read the treaty instead of relying on talking points, he would have had a much better understanding of what it means. So I think, you know, that clarity, that willingness to push back publicly is powerful. And I appreciate seeing it. But at the same time, I hate that First Nations leaders are still having to do this work over and over again. So I guess my credit to Chief Counselor Rempel was a little bit of a love, but my hate is the work that we are making indigenous leaders do to fight political disinformation.

Tom Parkin 1:03:40

Yeah. I'm gonna go directly against what I just said and just think, uh like polyaddis are nut. Uh like okay. Positive framing, Tom. Positive framing is, you know, people who are trying to negotiate a treaty are trying to create the opportunity to move ahead together and to have stability. Like, is that just not obvious the way that things have to go? I I don't I don't understand Pierre Paul. How is he gonna go anywhere? Uh uh trying to just throw chaos. I Jesus. Anyway. Well, that's frustrating to uh to hear that that he was gonna hear that he's gonna oppose the the the ratification. Um you know, that is kind of shameful. Anyway, more fun. Uh you've heard from me and Nikki. Uh what about you? Uh you can email us at lefteastwest at gmail.com and tell us about something you're loving or heaving. Um, and also we'd love it if you would tap the follow button on your podcast player and get reminders of upcoming interviews. We've got Mark Stells coming up, uh leader of the Ontario NDP, Jared Walker from the Canadians for Tax Fairness, and somebody we just booked this last week, B. Brusk, the president of the Canadian Labor Congress, uh coming up in the next few weeks. So thank you for joining. Got a lot of interesting people to come. And Nikki, have a great week.

Nikki Hill 1:05:02

Me too. And we're having a break week as well.

Tom Parkin 1:05:04

So yeah, have a great two week.

Nikki Hill 1:05:07

Yeah, we'll be back in two weeks because it's vacation time.

Tom Parkin 1:05:10

Right. Well, enjoy your vacation, Nikki.

Nikki Hill 1:05:12

Thank you, and I too.

Tom Parkin 1:05:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

See you guys. Thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parkin. We'd love to hear your comments, ratings, follows, and shares. It helps people find us. To become a Left East to West community member and to help us reach even more Canadians. Subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or listen wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe. I'm Doug Hamilton signing off for Left East to West.