Rogue or neurodivergent? Unpacking the labels we give Founders

We unpack how the labels founders wear can start as a joke and end up reshaping trust, authority, and decision making. 

We share the “Rogue Clonan” story, why neurodivergent leaders get labelled so fast, and how to reclaim your voice.

Key takeaways: 

• How self-deprecating founder labels can undermine leadership 
• Why calling someone “rogue” can damage neurodivergent founder authority
• How humour and masking show up in neurodivergent leadership
• Why founder labels can lead to exclusion from key business decisions
• How language shapes trust, credibility, and leadership perception
• Why neurodivergent founders are often labelled for what others cannot predict
• How to reclaim authority when a founder label no longer fits
• The bigger lesson, you’re not rogue, you’re the one who built it

Hosted by Cherie Clonan [@cherie_thedigitalpicnic] and co-hosted and produced by Steph Clifford [@stephssocials] 

Follow us on Instagram @theclimbpod_

Check out our agency @thedigitalpicnic > we teach digital marketing, and we can manage yours, too. 

Transcript

Acknowledgement And Podcast Premise

Cherie 0:00

We're recording this episode on the beautiful, unceded lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We want to express our gratitude for being able to create this podcast on this land, and we pay our respects to their enduring culture and connection to country. We recognize that sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the Climb, a podcast about the messy, brilliant, relentless journey of building something meaningful. As an introvert who believes in adding value, not noise, every 40-minute conversation is built to respect your time, but also actually teach you something useful.

Steph 0:40

So today we're exploring the labels that we give our founders. Sheree, you have a story that you wanted to share about a label that you actually gave to yourself, but the implications of that. So did you want to walk us through it?

Cherie 0:53

Yeah. Okay, so it's definitely going back into real history. Like TDP's got some history because we're turning 12 years old this year, for example. So uh it just feels like so many eras, you know. And one of those eras was a real rogue clonen era. So it was a name I gave myself because I guess most founders can probably relate to the need for rogue. You have to be a bit rogue, you know. And I've got a really self-deprecating sort of style of humor. Like I can just seriously laugh at myself. Um, I probably laugh harder at myself than anyone else because it's fun and it's funny. But when you're the founder, at the start that can work. When you're a baby team with folks who honestly won't take the piss with the self-deprecation, there's no harm, no foul, right? Um, and so yeah, I would constantly refer to myself as Rogue Clonan. And then it just really sort of, you know, permeated TDP's culture. It was definitely picked up and embraced by team, definitely begins affectionately, but it really is true. And, you know, there's a reason why neuroscientists kind of research this so heavily. We really become what we say about ourselves, you know, and so what can start as, you know, fun or funny and so on, and just a bit of self-deprecation, um, ended up having me feel like I didn't like the label that I first gave myself that was heavily picked up by team. And as we kept growing, um, more and more would just consider me to be this rogue loose kind of human. And I I just I really hated that. So yeah, um, definitely getting back into the history, I would say that title was really damaging and definitely over a longer period of time. And sometimes you just can't realize when it gets to that, oh, this is damaging kind of part. Uh, it's already sort of just got there itself in its own way, and before you know it, you're like, I feel uncomfortable. And yet, how am I meant to call this in? Because I think gave myself this label. Yeah.

Steph 2:58

Was there like a point in time where you actually could pinpoint, okay, now this label is actually undermining me?

When The Joke Stops Feeling Safe

Cherie 3:05

Yeah, it's when it stopped feeling funny. There was this absolute distinct moment where it was like, oh, we're all in on this joke, you know, to oh they're all laughing at me, you know. Um, and it just showed up in different conversations, and I felt like in some, you know, ways and definitely sometimes I would have been excluded from rooms and particular decisions being made for the business because it was just, oh, don't bring Shrean, she's too rogue, you know. And I that's not a good feeling. Um, I'm definitely not like a micromanagey kind of gal, but I definitely felt like I was being excluded from conversations and decisions that I definitely should have been in, given it's, you know, like my business. Um, so yeah, it just sort of naturally got there and it definitely reached this point where I was like, oh, this is really unfunny, and I don't know how to stop this because it just feels like it's really gaining some momentum. And still at that point, the team absolutely would have genuinely meant it in the most endearing and affectionate way. Um, bar a few examples, I would say, you know. Um, so truly no one ever says anything like this, I would imagine, because I've got faith in just people mostly honestly being inherently good. Um, yeah, there's definitely, it wasn't like they were just, you know, thinking, oh, what's this really nasty way we can describe Sharie? That's just not it at all, you know? But it became harmful because it just wasn't funny anymore. So yeah, there was this moment where I thought, uh, this started as humor and now everyone's laughing at me without even realizing it.

What Rogue Really Meant

Steph 4:47

And what like when you went to describe yourself as rogue, like what were you actually referring to? Like what did you see in yourself as being rogue?

Cherie 4:55

Just being a founder, literally just being a founder. Like you have to uh for anyone who's listening to this who hasn't been a founder, but maybe you've worked alongside founders and so on, watch them. Just watch them. It requires weekly rogue. You have to just think on your feet, um, think on the fly. So you I I don't like the word visionary. I don't even know that I am honestly a visionary. Um I've certainly met some founders who deservedly fall into that category. But um, you know, I've done some pretty cool things that um and and big things that have required rogue to get there. Um, some of the thinking is a little more loose. Um, some of the best things that I've sort of thought up have just been on the fly, you know, and all of that just requires a culmination of rogue. Like there's there's rogue moments that each founder will have that they feel so proud that they're that rogue. You know, like one of my favorite rogue moments was this is again way back, uh, but COVID was still COVIDing, except we were out of lockdowns. And one of my team members uh was really looking forward to an international holiday, and she really needed this because she was one of the university kids, I say kids in inverted commas, you know, who uh never got the gap year because it was in the thick of lockdowns. So this was that person's first time going to their dream destination that they'd wanted to go to for so long. Now, because COVID was still COVIDing, another beautiful team member came in without realizing that they were COVID positive right before her international trip. And it was really an uncomfortable morning at TDP HQs. And you know, Steph, we're we're here six days a month. So god damn, the absolute shit luck of all of that, you know, coming together like that. Now, me being allegedly rogue, walked in with really strong neurodivergent pattern recognition. You could cut the air with a knife, a super tense kind of what's happened? What's going on? I'd just done school run and I was probably 10 minutes late, but I just felt like it wasn't our usual workplace. I picked it up in 15 seconds. I could just, hey, what's happening? Learnt the story and have said, firstly, you need to go home to that person who was traveling. Uh, like go home. And the other person had, of course, gone home when they tested positive, um, because we had rat tests here to test for that. Uh, and then I went straight into my office and whipped up uh a policy to make sure that everyone at TDP moving forward who is office-facing can spend the week before they go overseas uh working from home. And that's the solution. And that just needed some rogue thinking and rogue pattern recognition ability to recognize that was shit. I don't want that to happen again. I don't want people to save up for, spend time on annual leave, save their hard-earned dollars for a holiday they can't take, which then they'll resent the team member, not meaning to, but you know, grudges be grudging. Um, and I don't want that, you know. So rogue fixed to that. So for anyone listening, I don't want you to hear the word rogue and think that it's there's no good or bad words, but that can have some bad links to it. But God, there's so much good about rogue. When I used rogue cloning, I had initially in the early days meant it as a compliment about myself. My rogue is my favorite thing about me. It's just that it took some darker undertones with time.

Neurodivergence Trauma And Humour

Steph 8:26

Yeah. I know we've spoken a little bit about how you, as a leader and a neurodivergent leader, lean on humor a lot. And I suppose, is that something that you see in other neurodivergent leaders too?

Cherie 8:40

Yeah, I do. Neurodivergent leaders and also anyone with a trauma background. So some of the funniest people that people meet have had some of the hardest lives, and you just learn to laugh about it, you know. So I think if we're talking to neurodivergent founders, um, you know, uh, there's with most, I don't want to generalize here, but with most neurodivergent folk, there's a trauma background. I mean, for uh ADHDers, it's alleged that by age eight, they've heard 20,000 plus pieces of negative feedback about themselves by eight years old. Wow. That's why so many ADHDers have learned to be funny. You know, they they have to be. For me, also, we can throw in the fact that I was an Air Force kid. Um, so we often moved every six months. You know, it's really hard to move to a new school, um, especially as an undiagnosed autistic girl. And the extra challenge for me is that I I'm really close with my little sister. We only have a 14-month age gap. It's almost Irish twins, I guess, like a couple months shy of that. Um, so she's not just my best friend, she's my soulmate, except that she's the spit image of my bio mum. I'm the spit image of my bio dad. Now, my dad's really handsome, but how that played out for me as a kid, I was an ugly duckling, you know, like, and so you're walking into a new school, I was so skinny and lanky. I was covered in pimples, not that like go for it these days. I love how Jen Alpha's just getting around acne, but back in those days it was a different time and it just wasn't a great thing. I cut my own fringe, I looked like Bjork.

Steph 10:18

You're really painting a picture here.

Cherie 10:21

Right. And um, I just yeah, had to, I quickly figured out I'm not exactly getting either the boys or the girls to gather around me. Whereas my sister was just this man, she belonged in a back in my days, like a dolly or girlfriend magazine. She was so breathtakingly beautiful, like objectively beautiful. So she and I would walk into the same new school. It would play out the same way every time. I would be in the lunch on my own, you know, library at lunch on my own. Bestie was always the librarian. I think they just felt sorry for me. Whereas my sister would have an invite to every high school party within, I don't know, you know, 15 minutes or something. So I just learned to be funny. Um, you know, I just thought I haven't got a lot else going on for myself. So I'm gonna be really funny. And that's what I did. And so that's where the self-deprecating, you know, kind of humor kicked in. And I think neurodivergent folk uh also especially learn if I laugh at myself first, I'm gonna beat everyone else to laughing at me. Yeah, and it's both sad and beautiful. I wish that it didn't have those sad links to it. It's like we're always like, well, I I fucking beat you because I'm laughing first, you know. And yeah, nowadays I just I laugh at myself all the time, still to this day. Even yesterday, Steph, we were in the offices. I shared a cute but endearing video of my daughter's last like basketball game, and it had a really emotional video in it. And I just shared it onto Slack with the team, and yeah, one of my team members said, Oh, it's a little bit blurry, like 0.001 seconds in or something. And I'm like, What? No, it's perfect. Like the edit is perfect. And she was like, No, sweetie, I'm crying. And it's something that I always fall for. I'm just really, really literal. So that pops up a lot because I share um emotional content online because I I like to tell stories. Um, and the internet, especially on TikTok, that TikTok, they'll always say, Oh, it's blurry this many seconds in, and I fall for it every time. So I've just learned to laugh at myself before anyone else laughs first.

Steph 12:28

Yeah, I feel like I could nearly rival you with some um like funny, interesting photos from back in the primary school days because I definitely had a rough time there as well. Full mullet, um, people that know me will will know those photos. I can't believe that. Don't worry. I'll I might share them privately, not publicly, but yeah, tough time in school. So you just really do. You develop the personality and the humour.

Cherie 12:52

Man, man, that's so surreal. Because as I'm looking at you, I just would have thought the polar opposite. You would have felt for me, I feel like you would have fallen into my sister's category.

Steph 13:01

No, no, no. I was um I was hanging out with the guys, went and played footy because I was just like, yeah, this tall mullet human.

Cherie 13:11

It's hard to be a tall kid at school. I was tall, not as tall as you, but I was definitely one of the tall ones. And yeah, I just, I don't know, people don't, they they the kids, they tease the tall until they realize by the 20s we're all like, lol, yeah, you brought it home strong.

Becoming Invisible In Your Own Business

Steph 13:28

Then you start playing team sport, and you're like, oh, it's okay. This comes in handy sometimes. So, what point do you feel like self-deprecation stops being, I guess, that bonding? And actually, you start feeling like, oh, I'm actually becoming really invisible here. Like my true personality is like being disregarded, essentially.

Cherie 13:47

Yeah. Well, my God, you answered it with the question, like, that's just so strong, Steph. You kind of nailed it, but I can remember a point. I um, as an autistic woman, uh, the way I cope and understand my world, because this world ain't it's not designed for me. Um, so every autistic person is different, but for me, it's always been music. I sink into lyrics, like it's the only way I it's as if someone's just injected songs into my goddamn veins. You know, um, it's the only way I can describe it. And so how I knew that we weren't in a good spot with Rogue Clonen was that I couldn't get through listening to Liability by Lord without it, wasn't just crying, Steph, like it was fucking Muriel's wedding levels of crying. Like I just felt so, so sad and so misunderstood and so infantilized, disrespected. And just I thought, how has it got to this point where some of the best things about me are just ridiculed by my own team? And they weren't meaning to, and I feel uncomfortable almost at this point in the episode because I would never want my team to just even feel even remotely uncomfortable with where this is going. But I also know we've had this discussion as a team and we're good, you know. So um rest assured by the time anything's ever hitting a podcast here, we've we've we've had conversations, we've done the work. We're all we always are at TDP, you know. But yeah, I just I felt really shit. And I and to make myself feel extra shit because feeling shit wasn't enough. I would drive into work and just listen to that song on repeat. So um I stim through music. I just need to really get it into those veins. Um, and I needed to sit in the sad and really feel it and let those lyrics pour in and say, Hey girl, you did this to you. You just tortured yourself. I did. I goddamn made the the name, you know, and it just got picked up with momentum. And now we were at a point where I couldn't drive into work without crying and feeling like this invisible woman and like I was just a liability for literally existing. Um, I wasn't trusted, I wasn't respected, I was, yeah, definitely sometimes even mocked. I was left out of conversations that I should have been in that could have honestly been really good for the business. Um, if anything, my rogue was really needed, but it was getting sort of just like leave that there. Um, let's not trust you with something big girl like profit and loss and spreadsheets and X and Y and Z. And I was just like, that's such a goddamn shame because I'm probably the best person to be on this, um, to be really honest, you know. Uh, and I wished I was trusted more because I have got such an ability to understand so much about business, because you know, you can't get to close to 12 years without having developed some significant business acumen. And I think people should trust in the acumen more and also back the rogue a little bit more because it's a bloody good thing.

Steph 16:51

Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't just that the word became a negative, but that actually decisions were being made based off this nickname that were genuinely leaving you out of conversations in your own business. Like it was a huge impact.

Cherie 17:04

Yeah, yeah. You would walk into meetings and it was said again, not meant to be disrespectful, uh, but it was just like, hey, I'll do the talking here because not in these exact words. I'm unfairly paraphrasing my memory doesn't serve super well in these moments because these are some sad days, you know. But it was something to the effect of like probably just be a little quiet in this meeting because you can tend to kind of ruin things. That's not fair, that's not the right words. I just can't remember the exact line. Along that line. Definitely along those lines, I can assure you. Yeah. Um, and I just thought, oh my God, I'll just shut the fuck up then. And I remember shutting the fuck up and watching things really not go well. And I just thought, if anyone wants to put me in, coach, with the rogue, I can um I can help here because this isn't looking good. But I I did, I shut the fuck up for about nine to 12 months and just almost watched and thought, this is this is going really bad and it's gonna get so much worse. But I will respect the need to be quiet. God forbid the loose enters the room, enters the chat. Um and I just thought, yikes, I'll never do it. It's hard for me to share that one now because I'm just so I'm I'm a different person now. I would never ever allow someone to excuse me from a conversation like that and decisions and associated decisions about my business, you know. Um back then I was just a bit of a baby leader and a massive people pleaser, and yeah, you know, just my rogue wasn't trusted.

Steph 18:40

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you think about, you know, that young Cherie who is at school and is feeling like out of place, you know, like what do you wish that you could tell her about, you know, letting people define you in this way?

Cherie 18:53

I I think you just especially for the younger, younger people, like teen era type stuff, you've just got to sit in the discomfort of adolescence because it's really uncomfortable. Adolescence is really uncomfortable. Um, and I I just feel like much like the tall, skinny girls grow into their own bodies, because that's me. And I don't know if you can relate to this, Steph.

Steph 19:14

Yes.

Cherie 19:17

Oh man, I can remember stuffing that episode. Let's do it.

Steph 19:21

I don't know.

Cherie 19:22

Oh my lord, I was climbing my way into bras for the love of God. Like I'd stuff those tissues into my little um whatever A cup bra, whatever. I'd be like, come on, just grow, please. They grew. But um, you know, you just you grow into your body. But for that girl back then, I and actually for that baby leader, let's not even talk adolescence. For that baby leader, you're gonna grow into your rogue and you grow into it really beautifully, and you just kind of own it. So they're the moments that I kind of wish I could go back and say, one day you're gonna grow into this, so much so that you'll feel insulted in the moment when people don't kind of back that rogue.

When Teams Dismiss Founder Energy

Steph 20:03

Yeah, yeah. Love that. You've also told me that you've seen this in other teams as well, where the teams have kind of dismissed their founder. Did you want to kind of tell us that story?

Cherie 20:14

Yeah. It happens every week that that I do want to share. And maybe this is the part within this dep this episode where people are gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable because you might, as you're listening, realize, ah, I'm doing this too. And I'm not meaning to, but I really still believe everyone is inherently good. No one's born bad. And there's no such thing as bad. Like it's just what we learn, right? So for anyone listening to this part of the podcast, just know that if you feel cold, just feel cold in, you know. But Steph, I see this play out every week because I'm in a really interesting position at the digital picnic where I am speaking to so many founders every single week in something as simple as an exploration call. You know, and they're often joined by their team. But there's one specific moment that I can remember in particular, and it was years ago, where um the exploration call kicked off with team, um, and it was a really inspiring business. And I was really excited to talk to them. So I do just want to preface this by saying that when I walked into this call, I was really giddy with excitement. However, how it ended up was that it was like finding out that Santa wasn't real all over again.

Speaker 21:30

Oh.

Cherie 21:31

Spoilers. Spoiler. Oh my gosh. Yes, if you're traveling with kids, I am so sorry that I'm not.

Steph 21:41

This episode just probably isn't for kids.

Cherie 21:44

So I went into the exploration call really excited. I was joined by two team members at the beginning. The founder was joining about 10 minutes late because they were coming from this really big thing that they were doing. I think they were presenting to just I don't want to give too many like Identifying it was a big deal that we're coming from a really big deal situation that they should have felt really proud about. Their team should have felt like, oh my God, I can't believe this is who we get to work with. So we get into the meeting, it kicks off, all fine. Then the founder joins, everything's great, and you feel that person's energy the moment they dial in. It's just like, wow, that's big founder energy. And it's so great. And I'm still at this point feeling really good. Then she has to dial out to get back to that really big thing that I just spoke to. Um, so we're like, bye, wow, what an honor to meet you. I'm like covered in goosebumps at this point. My team as well. My team can get around a rogue, you know, founder. So we're all just like, I can't believe this is the work that we get to do, or potentially if they say yes to the proposal. She leaves and then the team um went all in on just destroying her character.

Steph 22:56

Wow. Yeah. And like, what did that kind of look like?

Cherie 23:00

Just it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal. It just went from going from the biggest high to realizing this person has no idea. Because this is back in the days where there were no AI transcripts. We'd never heard of it. The meetings aren't recorded. Uh, I wouldn't ever want to give what was said about this person to that person anyway. It was horrific. Um, but they were basically just slaughtered for being rogue. Um, oh, she she's gone. So now we need to tell you. And it just felt like I was in on a really dirty gossipy session, which is not what I like to put my name to. I'm not here to gossip. And I felt really sad. And and it just hit me the hardest because I realized as well, this is how neurodivergent people are going to continue to be described. So this uh founder was an ADHD founder, and I just um I just wanted to almost yell at them on behalf of her, but that's not my style anyway. I just wanted to say, Who the fuck are you? Yeah, yeah. How literally dare you? Yeah, you know, yeah.

Why People Label What They Cannot Predict

Steph 24:01

Why does like why does this happen with neurodivergent founders so often? Do you think that these labels are rogue and loose and whatever it is? It just seems to happen so easily and quite quickly.

Cherie 24:12

I think people label what they can't predict. And honestly, um neurodivergency is pretty unpredictable. You know, we we we think different. We are genuinely. I meant when I said earlier, I meant it when I said, I feel like I'm moving through a world that is absolutely not designed for me. You know, I just I know I'm different. And growing up in an undiagnosed um era, I genuinely thought I was an alien. I really did. I just, there were so many moments where I'm like, am I from another planet? Um, I really just I remember asking my dad, am I adopted? Like, am I, what is, why am I like this? You know, so people label what they can't predict. Neurodivergent founders, they they challenge norms. Um, we move through, especially corporate spaces and just workplaces in general, really different. You would know, Steph, I'm I'm really anti-hierarchy. You know, I I don't understand what is the point. Can't we just all collaborate together and get this really great thing up? Like at TDP, we refer to it as one team, one dream. Um, and that's a beautiful thing. But even at TDP, sometimes that can get weaponized, you know. So um, you know, I've seen and had really great conversations accordingly, but I'm like, ah, that's moving away from one team, one dream, and that's actually weaponizing the sentiment behind that statement, you know. So uh yeah, we're we're disruptive, you know, we um definitely challenge norms. I see on a weekly basis just people genuinely uh discriminated for the way that they speak differently, think differently, especially those, and I'm the same, um, who can speak without a need to scaffold. Uh it can hit pretty hard. Uh and if people aren't used to that level of honesty, um, maybe they would feel uncomfortable. I still think my honesty is uh yes, it's direct, but it's really kind. You know, I just I don't know. I just I don't think I'm one of those like brutally honest people, but I'm definitely honest. You know, I I haven't got it in me to lie, unfortunately. It ain't an option. It just doesn't even enter the brain. And so for that reason, that can make people feel really uncomfortable. Here's the part where people need to feel cold in in hopefully a really gentle, I want you to feel like you walk away from this podcast episode a better person. Those labels aren't actually about the founder, it's about what and how and what within on the other side is feeling uncomfortable for the person, you know. So um it's all it's I guess it's just it's ego, you know. So if we use the example that I used before about someone who hits really honestly, um, for someone who hasn't gone on that big sort of like uh journey on receiving feedback well, they're gonna feel wounded. They're gonna feel really wounded. And yet, um, some of the absolute honest conversations I feel like I've had, especially TDP side, it's with that person's career growth in mind or even their personal development. You know, I'm on their side. When I give that feedback and I tell them, I'm like, I'm gonna give you some feedback and I need to let you know I couldn't be more on your side when I'm giving you this feedback. Um, and parts of it might feel uncomfortable and you don't even need to respond in the moment. You can take your time, come back to me four hours later or next day or even the next week. You don't have to respond in the moment. I just want you to hear it, receive it well, disagree if you don't agree, challenge me back, you know, or if there's some truth in what I'm delivering, let's grow together, you know, let's make this relationship so much better. What I ultimately land on though is I just find it so bloody fascinating. The labels that we give to neurodivergent founders for having built something that, let's be real, some of those other people giving those labels, they couldn't build, you know. So I have someone who uh I think will for the remainder of my days continue to give me really unfair labels in my life. They, I remember in some of our first conversations before things got a little mean um between that person and I, they actually, I'll never forget it. They said to me, Um, I tried to build what you've built and I couldn't. Um, and I thought, oh, I'll help you. Oh my gosh. Generosity to a fault. What was this gal thinking? So I was like, I'll help you, I'll help you, you know. Um, and now I'm just forever labeled by this person as some of the nastiest descriptions I've ever read about myself, Steph, you know. And I just think that sometimes people use really unfair labels like chaotic or um rogue or rebellious, or you know, um, as this episode is being recorded, our literal prime minister referred to Grace Tame as difficult. Like this is the stuff that continues to happen to neurodivergent women, Steph, and I'm so sick of it. You know, but it's because these labels are delivered by people who weren't able to do probably what that person has done that they're describing. So that's the part that I want folks to just sit in and maybe for some of you feel gently called in on next time you're going and thinking, oh, they're so dot dot dot. What's missing in you to make you want to throw that label down so easily? You know, um, but that person uh tried to grow an agency and they got to a team of one. Team of one? Is that including themselves or? Oh, sorry, plus one.

Steph 30:11

Okay, let's call it two. I was gonna say team of one, any of us can do.

Cherie 30:16

100%. No, they were themselves plus one employee. Um, they are some easy days. I still look back at the days when TDP had less than five, and they were some of the easiest days I've ever had as a founder. Anything less than five is self-managing. You have a team of unicorns who can seriously self-manage, you know. And so I just find it wild that someone would feel so comfortable, you know, sitting in that labeling me, a neurodivergent woman, the way that they continue to do, when I just want to say, hey man, um, tell me about where, where did you, how did, how did you go?

Steph 30:58

Yeah.

Cherie 30:58

You know what I mean? Like, how did you go? You tell you tell me the stories of um how you managed what you managed. Um, because I was such a good leader when I had one team member. Yeah. I could be, I had all the time in the world, you know, and it just gets really, real, really fast. It's like Jumanji level 900 at a particular point.

Steph 31:19

So I guess people just don't really understand sometimes the experience and maybe the pressure that founders have on their shoulders, especially as that team grows bigger, right?

Cherie 31:29

Yeah, no, absolutely. I see this um every single week. I mean, for me, um, Dave, my husband, always reminds me, he's he sits me down and he's just like, Hey Cherie, I just need to let you know that you are building a business that pay run alone is more than two million a year. And he said, most people would have a nervous breakdown trying to pull that off. Um and he sort of gives examples because you know, he's um been in his particular industry for a really long time and um led teams, and you know, that's not easy. And um, he gives examples like times where he's given someone some really constructive, very fair feedback, and they've had to head home for the day and take the remainder of the week off. One piece of constructive feedback, um, delivered really kindly because my husband's um he's a gem, you know. Imagine being able to go home and take the week off because you couldn't sit with one piece of constructive feedback, right? That's cute. Um, but have you ever tried to run a business with a two million dollar plus pay run? And so there's just this uh this weight on every founder's shoulder that if you haven't done it, you can't relate. And even if you have, you quickly forget. You know, um, and I mean, my EA um is forever just like, wow, Cherie, you, your team would not even be aware of what you're managing week by week. And most people would think, I'm one person, I've got this challenge, I'm gonna escalate it here, but they don't realize they're one of 31 in one week, you know. More recently, we delivered this incredible strategy for a client that we've worked with for two years. I love her so much. Um, and one of our team members who heads up our entire digital division at the digital picnic said something really validating and she wouldn't have even been aware of it. But it it really um, I just I was like, okay. Um, where she said, You couldn't pay me enough to be a founder. She did that to validate our client.

Steph 33:41

Uh, but I was just sitting there like, so how do you, you know, if a founder's listening to this and they're thinking, yep, this has been me, I've been reduced down with labels, how do they reclaim that authority?

Cherie 33:55

Have the conversation. You know, um, so if you've got descriptions of yourself that you're uncomfortable with, you're allowed to call that in. And that's what I did. Yeah. And it's not confrontational. That's the thing. People, especially neurodivergent folk who tend to sit in like a fawn response with regards to just like a lifetime of trauma, probably. Um, so they can really fawn. Picture neurodivergent founders before they've healed. They're kind of like if you if we talk dog park mode, they're like the dogs in the dog park that are on their backs, all four legs in the air, whenever another dog comes near them. You know, I just look at those kind of dogs in a dog park and I'm like, that was me when I thought that every um just gentle conversation was confrontational. So you've got to have the conversation. I can remember I just put a little deck together. I do love a deck. Um and I gathered the team and I just said, hi, all. A long time ago, I coined this description of myself. I'm actually no longer comfortable with it. This is why. Um, and I just kind of walked them, you know, through it. Um, and what helped me get there to finish, you know, this episode off, hopefully the the same way it kind of started at points. Music always helps me, Steph. Um, it helps me more than any self-help book, sometimes even coaching sessions with relevant people. If I can sink into lyrics to help get around a situation that's feeling really true to me, um, I would say listen to the right song. So at that point, it was from now on from Hugh Jackman. Really revealing. Um, but I just needed that energy. But even still now to this day, um, I need music to regularly coach myself out of self-deprecating labels that end up getting picked up by the wrong people with a bit of mean energy attached to it. So I guess like I wanted to sort of um share some lyrics actually. Yeah, are we gonna sing?

Steph 35:46

Oh damn. You don't want to, maybe.

Cherie 35:50

Oh my lord, no. Um, but just you know, it's this song that if anyone with kids, especially, um, we all know the song Golden. Um, it gets played, you know, religiously, but I I listen to the lyrics in that, and it feels like the journey that I've gone on with shaking off Rogue Clonan, actually. So there's lyrics like at the start of the song, it says something to the effect of I've lived two lives, tried to play both sides, but I couldn't find my own place. Um, and then it goes on to say, I was called a problem child because I got too wild. But now that's how I'm getting paid.

Speaker 36:27

You know this.

Cherie 36:29

I'm like, is this fucking play about us? Um, and then you scroll down and it it's sort of in the middle of the song, I guess. Like it makes me think of this part that I reached next where it's like I'm done hiding. Now I'm shining like I'm born to be. We're dreaming hard, we came so far, now I believe. So we're going up, it's our moment, um, we're together, we're glowing, it's gonna be golden. And that reminds me of where I got to, Steph, because it wasn't just I that had to go on that journey, but I had to take a team of I got the I got the kindest team. I they're the aren't they the best people?

Speaker 37:03

Yeah, they're so golden.

Cherie 37:06

Yeah, but they just needed to know, oh, I'm not actually comfortable with that language. Um, you know, and so yeah, it's been up from here.

Golden Era Reframe And Closing

Steph 37:14

All right. So if we're in our golden era, as the song goes, yeah, um, and you had to replace Rogue Clonin, like what's what's the new nickname? What's the new label?

Cherie 37:25

Well, I think I'm not rogue. I'm just the one who built this. Um, so building something like this requires rogue. Um, and if if I could be really honest, I think I was just ahead of my time, you know. Everything I've ever called people, like some reactions, they're like, what? Um, and then one to two years later it was that same thing that's just become so normalized, you know. So I'm I'm not rogue. I'm the one who built it. Um, I'm not rogue, I'm just a little bit ahead of my time. Um, you know, and maybe to the people listening to this, maybe that's you too.

Steph 38:00

Wow. All right. Well, if anyone out there has got a label they need to shake off, hopefully um they got some great advice from that story. Thank you for sharing, Sheree. And if you are listening, we would love your support with a subscribe, and we will see you next week.

Cherie 38:16

Thanks for listening to the climb with Cherie Clonan and Steph Clifford. Here's to growth, grit, and bloody good stories.