Lessons in Unoffendable Leadership

Today we talk about unoffendable leadership and why staying hurt makes leading a team harder than it needs to be. 

We share some of Cherie's honest stories from business ownership, plus the practical tools to regulate your reactions without becoming cold.

Key Takeaways:  

• Unoffendable leadership means still feeling hurt without leading from hurt.
• You cannot control other people’s emotions, only your own response.
• Trying to keep everyone happy is a fast path to leadership burnout.
• Being constantly offended is expensive, emotionally, physically, and professionally.
• Feel the hurt, but don’t stay there, pitch the tent, don’t live in it.
• The 4, 24, 48 rule helps regulate conflict before reacting or making decisions.
• Victim mode keeps you stuck, creator mode helps you move forward.
  
  

Hosted by Cherie Clonan [@cherie_thedigitalpicnic] and co-hosted and produced by Steph Clifford [@stephssocials] 

Follow us on Instagram @theclimbpod_

Check out our agency @thedigitalpicnic > we teach digital marketing, and we can manage yours, too. 

Transcript

Introduction

Cherie 0:00

We're recording this episode on the beautiful, unceded lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We want to express our gratitude for being able to create this podcast on this land, and we pay our respects to their enduring culture and connection to country. We recognize that sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the Climb, a podcast about the messy, brilliant, relentless journey of building something meaningful. As an introvert who believes in adding value, not noise, every 40-minute conversation is built to respect your time, but also actually teach you something useful.

Steph 0:39

Today we are talking all about unoffendability in leadership, which I feel like this could probably be a part one, right, Cherie.

Cherie 0:47

Part one of 350 something.

Steph 0:50

So part one, and I suppose this is something that you've really kind of anchored for yourself as a leader, Cherie, being unoffendable. But it's not maybe always been that way. You correct me if I'm wrong here, though. That is correct. So um I know this today's episode really anchors on a personal story of yours. So I'd love you to walk us through it.

Cherie Finds The Slack Thread Story

Cherie 1:13

Well, I would say always in my personal life. So I will just say in my life, I've always been an unoffendable person. I've never been able to relate to jealousy. I've never got um, I've never understood particular dynamics within friendship groups. I've always been people, my friends would almost tease me and call me Switzerland because I can stay really neutral and I just don't get scooped up in a lot of drama. But you know what? Business ownership can take even folks who've prided themselves on unaffendability to really um offendable spots. And yeah, I've gone on a real journey with that. So I can remember like really, really early years at the digital picnic. I'm in the midst of what was at that time a really challenging time for myself because I was separating from a business partner and just trying to make that as good as I possibly could. It's not easy to separate in anything, like, you know, business partnership, friendships, marriage, like the list could go on. So I'm doing my best to manage that um pretty well. And at the time, you know, had a small team as well as some contractors. And yeah, I can remember one particular evening. It just was going to be one of the first of many tests on shaking off offendability. And this was one of the first big ones because it was really early days. I'm getting smashed sort of professionally in terms of separating from business partnership, you know, um, felt like every second phone call is a different conversation with lawyers, which is just nervous system destroying in and of itself, right? So your gal's not going well, you know, but still feeling like I'm showing up to work um in the best way I possibly can. I roll in on one evening because we have this uh VIP program for our students at this time, um, and I needed to live stream to the group. And I had a really young family at the time, so live stream, you know, you've got to make sure babies ain't crying. Um so I drove into work after hours. Our contractors had wrapped up for the day. I went to login to live stream from my laptop, but it just wasn't working for some strange reason. So I went across to just a contractor's um, you know, desktop, knew the login, because, you know, um, in the whole scheme of things, it's my computer. And we all shared passwords. Like we were just so small at this point, like really different kind of TDP days. Logged in, uh, our internal comms platform is open. We use at the time something called Slack. I go to close it out. I literally have my little mouse on the X to close that bad boy out, uh, except I see my name. Uh-oh. You know, and I curiosity has killed every cat, right? It just why did I read it? If I'd if today I saw that, I still would have closed it out, Steph. I wouldn't read it. I wouldn't want to know because it's not going to serve a purpose for me to know what people are saying about me on a private, you know, uh tool. Um, so nobody wins from that read. And these days this cat would have beat curiosity. I would have just been like, um, I'm good. I don't need to know.

Steph 4:16

Yeah, wow.

Cherie 4:17

But not then. So I read it and it was absolutely brutal. Uh, if I would have printed out, it would have totaled four pages of dialogue. Um, now just to set the power, I guess the the tone, Steph, like I'm 20 minutes away from needing to live stream to a whole group of people who want to learn about something digital marketing related. So it, I guess if I could describe it, the impact that that read had on me, I felt like that woman in love actually, when she thinks she's getting this beautiful necklace, but she gets the Joni Mitchell CD.

Steph 4:50

Stop it.

Cherie 4:52

Heartbreaking. It was. It actually was. I felt like Emma Thompson. I just cried and cried because I think I cried as well because I was just so tired fighting um legal type stuff. I was just tired anyway. Yeah. But also it was just so unnecessarily mean like, get me for big things, but it was just, oh, she's so stupid. She she doesn't know how to spell, her grammar sucks. Um, she bought the wrong size coffee mugs, they're gigantic. I don't drink coffee. Sorry.

Steph 5:22

What niche insults.

Cherie 5:24

They were niche. I got a credit where credit's due because and you know, to the reason why I got the fucking coffee mugs was I kept getting complaints about there not being enough coffee mugs. So, in the thick of just being so bloody busy at this point, I drove down to Kmart on a lunch break one day and just bought coffee mugs, but apparently they were too big.

Steph 5:42

A couple of buckets.

Cherie 5:43

I bought some buckets, let's be real. Um, so I'm not gonna go into the thick of you know what was described in there. It was, but it was just pages and pages of just ripping into me about really, in the whole scheme of things, pretty basic shit. But I could quickly and easily see I was not liked, you know. Um, so I cried uh because I was a baby leader. Uh like to be fair, I think anyone would probably cry if they actually took that in anyway. Uh it just felt so mean-spirited and a little bit pathetic, you know. And so anyway, dried my eyes, um, like Emma Thompson, got out to the family with the kids and thought, no, we're gonna celebrate Christmas, you know, and you just have to, you know, um, and just like really turn it on Emma Thompson style. And I delivered this live stream, and then I just got in the car and I just thought, fuck my life. Why am I trying so hard with people? You know, um, and so that was lesson, I guess early days lessons in offendability and unoffendability. Like I just I think it was, you know, I was not realizing it at the time, but I was like, hey, sweetie, when you're employing humans, you are gonna get hurt like this all the time. And sometimes it will be for the most unfair reasons related to coffee mugs, you know, and and you won't be able to sit them down and say, you complained about not enough mugs, so I went and got the mugs and now they're too big. Just fill it up less. Like, I mean, I don't drink coffee, so I mean, I don't know if that's really insulting to coffee culture, but I'm like, just fill it up less, you know. You know, I could have gone any way with it. I rang a friend who owned a business and she's she's a badass, and I love her so much. She's an icon. But she's like, oh, okay, my advice to you print it out, bind it up at Office Works, put it on their desks, and let them walk into that. Whoa. Whoa.

Steph 7:34

I don't I can't imagine you doing that to me.

Cherie 7:38

Oh man. So I was like, all right, um I appreciate the advice. I'm not gonna do that. And so then I rang my husband's cousin and she said, just just take take them for a walk to the coffee shop. God forbid they drink from the oversized coffee mug.

Steph 7:56

The appropriate size glass.

Choosing A Calm Response

Cherie 7:57

Yes. Uh so went for a little walk and just did a gentle call-in. Like, what is this? Why? Yeah. Um, you're better than that, you know. And I just need you, even if I don't need I I can remember saying, I don't need you to like me. I don't really care, you know, but I do need you to respect me. Uh so can we just do better than this because you're also working in a particular role that sets the tone for this place that we call work. And I just need you to do better. Even if you don't like me, I need you to do better. And if you don't like me to the point where this isn't worth it for you, just you can you can wrap it up, you know, if you wanted to. Worded better than this, I promise. Um, but yeah, it landed pretty well. They did cry because they, but not because of anything in it was nothing related to my delivery. It was more just like, I think they just felt I I don't know. I'm gonna assume that they didn't feel great about what they'd written, you know, and yeah, things changed and got better, you know, from there. So went the unoffendable route, didn't do the printout, um, and just decided a little coffee walk might be better.

Steph 9:05

A brave thing to do because I think the initial reaction is yeah, just like anger, upset, and like wanting to be like, okay, well, you know, here's my action. And instead, it's like take that beat and just really think about what to do. What did that moment, I guess, teach you about leadership and people?

Cherie 9:27

Uh, people are never happy. Yeah, they're never happy. So you've just got to not get wounded about how they describe you on a bad day. They might just be having a bad day at work or even in their own lives. And people are people, and you know, you can think that you're solving problems for people by getting the goddamn extra mugs, you know, and they still find a way to just go, you know what? She's irritating. You know, so I think that was an important lesson as well. Um, I didn't clock it quick enough then. I just still very much so for years. I just thought if I keep solving problems for people, they'll just be happy. But no, Steph, I have realized people are so beautiful. I'm literally obsessed with them. It's always been a lifelong autistic special interest of mine, and it will never go. But I also have to prep and prime myself for the fact that people are people, and there's no way to satisfy a collective. You just can't, and you'll die trying.

Steph 10:21

Yeah.

Cherie 10:21

Yeah.

Steph 10:22

I think, you know, even just as like a human being, regardless of being a leader, that's so true, isn't it? It's like you can only control the controllables, and other people's emotions do not fit within that.

Cherie 10:31

They can't, they just don't. People are people.

Steph 10:34

People be peopling.

Cherie 10:35

Yes.

Steph 10:36

Okay, so thinking back to when you were probably a baby leader, which I don't know if you would say, is that at that time? Would you have described yourself as a baby leader back then?

Cherie 10:45

Baby, man, that's a compliment to my leadership, Steph. I was still in utero.

unknown 10:49

Okay.

Cherie 10:51

I I had no idea, and yet I thought I had all the ideas because yeah, I'd led teams, but they weren't teams within my own business. It's so different when it's your business.

Steph 11:03

So when you did become a baby leader when I was born. When you were born. So how easily did things offend you back then in utero?

Cherie 11:13

Man, um, it's so hard to go back to that spot because I'm such a different person now. Yeah. Um, but I would say I was offended daily. I would just take offense to almost everything. I would read email tone and just think, is this play about us? Um, I took it all home. I would ruminate. Uh, I think it was just a lot to do with the fact that again, as an autistic woman with a special interest in people, I just wanted to figure people out. And I've realized now you just can't. It's not possible. You're setting yourself up for lifelong offense, you know. So stop trying, start living. But yeah, no, baby leader days. I was so different to how I am now, and that's okay. It's, you know, I'm talking this is first year in business. Employing team for the first time. Founders give everything their all. Like we're just wired to just go all in. So it's such a shock to the system when you're giving everything, like everything. And it for the first three years, there's no salary. And after that, it's so humble anyway. So you're also slogging it for just quite literally nothing, and you're still copying it, you know. So uh yeah, super baby leader days. I'm not gonna say I wasn't proud of me back then. I'm actually so proud because it's an evolution. We're meant to have, you know, evidence of growth. I'm actually proud for just how much I was just trying. I'm like baby giraffe style, just learning to walk, and it looks ridiculous, you know. Yeah.

Steph 12:41

I think in that story that you shared, you actually acted really well, considering like that was a great reaction, or what like what do you think about that?

Cherie 12:50

Yes, on paper, sure. But cried so much, lost so much sleep. Some people still to this day, when I share that story, they're like, so they were contractors, so you could have fired them on the spot. And maybe I should have. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't think so. I still think I made the right call. I guess, sure, that's a compliment. Thank you so much. If you think I acted well in that moment, what I'll say is you can come across unoffendable, but if it's still really like the offense is within, you're going to destroy yourself. Like, and so I had to go on such a journey to sure maybe there was neutrality on the outside, but inside I was dying, just so devastated all the time, you know, just thinking, how can people be so ridiculous or mean or just whatever it might be? 12 months later, Steph, I was um on a surgery table, like for stomach ulcers, covering my whole stomach. Like those ulcers were ulcering, you know, and I just know from the stress. Uh, I don't know, it can't be proven, you know.

Steph 13:56

Scientists are still looking into it.

Cherie 13:58

Ulcers and stress have two really big links. And the doctors were like, your insides are just covered in ulcers. Like you just, I don't know. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist, but I just think I was internalizing so much that it showed up on my insides. So that can't be good. We we might be neutral on the outside, but inside I'm dying. Yeah.

Steph 14:19

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So at what point did you realize, you know, if I keep being constantly offended by everything, like this isn't going to be sustainable for me if I want to continue to be a leader and lead well?

Pitch The Tent Then Leave

Cherie 14:31

100% that. Um, it's not sustainable personally, professionally, but also financially, Steph. It is really expensive to be someone who gets offended by a lot of things, you know. So, you know, there's that famous quote where it says, businesses don't go out of business because they run out of cash. They go out of business because a founder runs out of energy. How are you going to run out of energy? By getting offended by literally everything and everyone. So it was just really expensive to stay offended. I just knew I had to go on a path towards figuring out how to become a much more unoffendable person, not just externally, externally, but internally as well. And so I always, you know, my business coach went so much deeper than this, but a quick takeaway from one of my many, many years of sessions that I've had with Amy from Craft Coaching and Development has been when it comes to feeling offended, sure, feel it. We're human. You can pitch a tent there, but you're not going to want to live there. No one wants to live in a tent full-time bar a very niche group of human beings that I can't relate to. You know, um, we want to live in houses, you know, we want to live in comfort. So when you're camping out in what she refers to as the red zone, feeling really rejected or wounded or offended or XYZ, stay there, like pitch the tent there. Just don't live there. Get the flip out of that, you know, uh caravan park with your little tent, ASAP, and get back to a far more regulated spot.

Steph 16:06

I love that.

Cherie 16:07

Shout out, Amy. Shout out Amy. She's an oracle. We love Amy.

Steph 16:12

Probably. Um, my next question, like, probably is aided by Amy's advice, but you've kind of said now, you know, you've been burnt enough times, like nothing really gets you anymore. Nothing can like break through that wall. Like, how do you get there?

Cherie 16:28

Uh, well, I hope this answer inspires instead of making anyone else feel sad. Any founder that's scaling a business that requires people to work within it. So people, not robots, um, because I'm seeing some multi-seven figure founders running businesses where they think they can literally automate everything and like amazing, um, tell me your secrets. But when you're hiring human beings, you're gonna get burned. It's mathematically so likely, you know. Uh, you can't clock close to a, you know, 12 years for us at the moment without kissing a couple of frogs. And some of those frogs really burn. So I've been burned. I've been, I've been burned. And some would say, uh, maybe I've burned in return. Like, sure, like TDP, we've had highs and lows, and I've had to make really hard decisions that would be considered to be burns to other people like making a role rolls plural redundant. Like the list goes on. I'm not gonna name, you know, every single thing. So sure, like I've absolutely burned in return on paper, but I've been burned. I've I've I've just been so, so burned. And I remember um in my baby leader days, let's go back there, I can remember getting invited to this event that I was so excited to go to. It was for founders only who were scaling team. And I was really excited. And I met someone that I had a real founder crush on, career crush on, and then they opened their mouth, and it was really uninspiring. Um, they said they loved their business, but the worst part about their business was their team. Yes. Oh. For those who are unable to watch this podcast, Steph's eyes just opened so wide, and her reaction was exactly my reaction at the event. I just couldn't believe that someone would hate what is honestly the best part of a service-based business. It's the people. I love it. You know, and so that was really depressing to listen to. What I can recognize now is how much that person spoke from a place of hurt and burn. They've been burned. You can tell. I know it. I know how to read burn now. I hadn't been burned at that point. So I was in my Willy Wonka, chocolate factory, sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows days, and I just couldn't relate to any kind of burn. But I I'm there now. I'm not still where that person was. I would never say that the worst part of what I do is my team. Holy shit. It is the most inspiring. Yeah. Doesn't mean it's easy, you know, but it is the most inspiring. But um, what I'm gonna say to finish this, guess this part of the question out is I'm actually grateful for the burns. I think I needed to get hurt because I was pretty rose-colored glasses when I like sort of headed into scaling this little business we call the digital picnic. I couldn't believe some people are capable of just doing and bringing what they do. I just couldn't imagine that because that's not how I roll. That doesn't mean that that's gonna be how everyone else rolls, right? So I'm grateful for the burns because it's just made me a really different person. And, you know, these days, I think I'm at a point now where there's just, and I say this to my husband especially all the time, I don't think there's anything someone could do or say that would shock me anymore. That's a bit sad. But it's also inspiring because it speaks to that evidence of growth. It's sad because it I'm in no way ever on this podcast gonna go into detail about anything like some of that, you know, that I've trekked. But um, what I will attach is always the lessons, you know. So the burns have been there, they've been really hard, they've been really sad. But the inspiring part of that is I think it's brought me to a point where I I don't know how I could be offended by anything anymore because I've seen a lot, you know, and I've experienced a lot. So it's a good spot to be in.

Steph 20:25

I guess for me, listening to this, it's not just maybe for founders, it's also for employees. Like you're gonna get burnt as well. And it's actually really good when you do, even though it won't feel like it at the time. But being able to realize that like business isn't personal, even though at times it can feel so incredibly personal. But just remembering that in everything that you do, because you know, as awful as sometimes it is, you know, anything can happen, everyone is replaceable, every business, like nothing is guaranteed. Yeah. So sometimes it's actually a really good thing to go through being burnt because you're a lot less naive to the realities of a of a workplace, and that's founder side or employee side.

Cherie 21:12

Yep, I couldn't agree more. Such an unoffendable queen response from Steph there. Like, that's it. That's literally it. It goes always. Like, unoffendability needs to be adopted by founders, sure, and employers. I'd love to see an era for workplaces everywhere where there's more um unoffendable humans rolling through it. But same goes, employee side. Like, yeah, everything you just said there. I've seen people handle burns with so much integrity and grace, and it says everything about them and where they're gonna end up within their careers. You know, it opens doors, that integrity and grace. A fence closes doors. It really does.

Steph 21:49

Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta hold your head up high and keep moving through it, even when, you know, the internal monologue is like burn it all down. Burn it all down.

Cherie 22:01

Yep.

Steph 22:01

Um, but yeah, it pays sometimes just to be, yeah, the bigger person.

Staying Warm Without Going Cold

Cherie 22:07

It always pays to be the bigger person, Steph. I, man, we don't want to bring Shane into this podcast too soon, but we love my dad, and that's just how I've been raised. No matter what happens, you've got to be the bigger person. You just have to be.

Steph 22:22

Okay, so what does like being unaffendable actually mean to you? Because it's not the same as being cold. I guess people might listen to this and be like, well, I don't just want to turn into this robot that doesn't feel anything. Yeah. So how do you balance that?

Cherie 22:39

Well, when you're still in that offendable spot, you are more wounded. Um, and so it can feel really tempting to become cold, Steph. I remember a little part of TDP's chapter. I actually can't remember what era this one was in. But I remember saying to my best friend, I'm just too big-hearted for this. I can't pull this off. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna get so fucked over and perpetually fucked over. And I didn't want that to be my story, and I didn't know if my nervous system was up for the challenge. So I said, what if I just, because I'm a I love biology, um, and I'm like, I'm just picturing my heart, and I'm like, well, maybe there's too many chambers open. So I'm like, what if I just operate from the left ventricle only? What if that's enough? You know? Um, and I closed down the other three chambers. Um, so we don't need the atrium.

Steph 23:29

Sorry, I'm back in the attendance science here.

Cherie 23:32

I'm gonna take you on a little journey. I'm like, I don't even need the right. I know where you are. That's yeah, yeah, yes, yes. I remember colouring that in red, blue, show the veins. Um, I didn't even need like a right ventricle. I was like, maybe the left ventricle is enough. I tried that for a little bit and it made me feel really shit. I can't do that. I'm not a cold person. I am a lover girl. I just am. I live to love people. I'll never change, unfortunately. It's tiring. I just I'm a bit, bit of a toddler like that. I don't want to infantilize myself, but I it's my favorite thing about me. I can be pretty childlike and I just get around people in a way that my 12-year-old daughter does. So I just I don't think I've grown up a lot in that sense, you know. And so I tried the the closing of the chambers and that didn't work. So I had to stay, you know, true to me. Um, and that was the thing that catapulted me more towards really figuring out how the flip to get less offended. Because if we want to keep the chambers open, we're going to need to find a way to make sure that it just doesn't um, I'm not gonna admit, need to be defibrillated at some point or something, right? Like, yeah, so uh keep the chambers open. Don't close your heart if you're feeling like that's how you want to move through your business world or your, you know, marketing career and so on. Cold for me wasn't the solution. I think the people who choose cold, they're still in offendability camp. They've pitched a tent there and they've chosen to live there and they've chosen cold for self-protection. I stay warm, I stay loving, I'll never change. Um, it's good for me. It's really good for my nervous system. I will continue to get burned because of the way that I'm built. That's what happens to the lover girls, and that's okay. I'm glad that I've throughout all of this stayed warm, and that's because I've been able to become so unoffendable.

Steph 25:29

And practically, like, what would that look like today if someone, you know, came and something another message popped up that you read and it was pages about you? Like, how would you practically actually deal with those negative emotions if they do come up?

How To Regulate The Body

Cherie 25:43

Uh well, these days I wouldn't even read anything beyond seeing my name. So that's the first thing. You can't get wounded when you don't read it.

Steph 25:52

Yeah.

Cherie 25:52

I don't want to know.

Steph 25:53

Yeah.

Cherie 25:53

I don't give a fuck.

Steph 25:56

She does not care, guys.

Cherie 25:57

I don't care. Honestly, I just don't care for anything that people say about me that's got a really just well, it's unintelligent. You know what I mean? Like it's just unintelligent to be that gossipy and mean. Yeah. Um, so I'm just, you know, a bit uh Michelle Obama-like. Like I'm like, if they're gonna go low, I'm gonna go so high I'm not even gonna read it. So I don't get hurt because I just don't take it in. Beyond that, you still have every right to go to your safe people. As long as I've made sure that my safe people can hear a lot of stories. Because um I'm scaling a service-based business and I'm uh I'm gonna learn some really hard lessons, and I'm gonna continue to learn hard lessons, especially about people. So I always need to sense check that they're down for hearing stories because it can be exhausting for them too. Especially for my husband, he's not built to deliver bullshit in anyone's worlds, especially professionally. And sometimes I'll just make a little confession here, he hears some stories and he just genuinely can't believe that people would consider that to be professional at work. He just, there's only so much he can take hearing about it. Um, so then I would probably go to my best friend. What I would say is beyond just going to people for support, what I had to learn was how to physically get to a neutral spot. So I could, I can nail the stay neutral in the moment and even beyond it, but it still can do that thing that it does to my stomach, you know, and I can still physically cry or I'll lose sleep. I hate it when it gets to the point where I lose sleep over stuff. I really hate that because I don't want it to cost me my sleep when I'm in my 40s and managing Perry. You know, I'm yeah, needing sleep. So I learned some physical exercises through a woman called Claudia Demancy from Body Story Method. And oh my gosh, why are we not teaching this to children in school? It gives you the physical feeling of neutrality within.

Steph 27:52

Wow.

Cherie 27:53

It's unbelievable. I wouldn't be doing credit on this podcast to describe how to get there. You just actually have to follow her page, you know. But that was the final loop for me that I had to close, Steph. I had to learn how to physically get neutral. It's a really simple set of exercises, but this feeling comes over you within where you're like, whoa, this is the physical embodiment of neutrality.

Steph 28:16

And so being unoffendable, it hasn't made you harsher, it's just made you better.

Cherie 28:21

Yeah.

4, 24, 48 Hour Framework

Steph 28:22

Okay, you've also developed your own way of managing um your emotional reactions. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about this framework? So it's four hours, 24 hours, and 48 hours.

Cherie 28:34

Yes. Okay, so I didn't develop it. I can't take credit. It's definitely Byron Katie from the US, who's a researcher on rejection sensitivity dysphoria in the US. So that's all her. But I got around it and loved it so much. And I realized it's almost like a hack for folks who live in who pitch a tent and stay there. So every day we're gonna go up against things that are genuinely offensive. And this podcast episode, by the way, is not meant to make anyone feel like they're numb to everything. I save my offense for what is genuinely offensive, like climate change or um XYZ. You insert what is offensive to you. I save my offense for what is genuinely offensive. And it's not reading a four-pager about myself on Slack anymore. I gotta be real. You know, so this framework that Byron Katie developed, I could get around because it really does help people get out of that pitch attent and more towards, you know, leaving the caravan park on it. So if something pops up, you have the hard meeting at work, or you've pitched something and it doesn't get up, or someone spoke to you and it made you feel a particular way, like let's whatever it is. This is everyday life. We're, you know, we're rolling in a world with people and not robots. So we're gonna have people say things that feel offensive, right? It's been proven by neuroscientists that uh it should take about four hours to shake that off. So give yourself the four hours. Uh, if it's been a hard meeting, just say, um, I'm gonna think about this one and I'll get back to you in about four hours. Or if it felt like Jumanji level, next level up, give it 24 hours. And if it's even worse than that, give it 48. If at 48 hours you're still staying wounded, it's been proven by neuroscientists that you're choosing to stay wounded. Because the brain can't physically hold on to a fence for that long.

Steph 30:30

Wow.

Cherie 30:30

Yeah. I sort of ask myself at the 48-hour mark, that's two nights of sleep on this bad boy. What am I doing to stay pitching my tent here and what's blocking me from moving out of there? And then I feel like it's probably on me.

Steph 30:46

Yeah.

Cherie 30:46

You know?

Snickers Moments In Leadership Teams

Steph 30:47

I feel like that's such a good framework to know for yourself. But then also, I guess you're leading this team who may or may not be able to recognize that or understand it or implement it in their own lives yet. So you have a thing at TDP called a Snickers? Snickers moment. Snickers moment. Tell tell everyone what that what that looks like.

Cherie 31:10

Well, it's like that really cool ad that Snickers developed, I don't even know how many years ago, right? And I think the catchphrase was like, you're just not you. Like, do you need a Snickers? It's like usually featuring some really angry, overt, something kind of person, right? And then they give them a Snickers and they're back to them. Yeah. Um, at the digital picnic, I've worked with some incredible human beings, big personalities as well. And I've watched them lose themselves in a Snickers moment in meetings, especially at senior leadership level when big hard decisions are being made. We sort of just introduced humor to those moments where we're like, you're not you, I think you need a Snickers. And that's kind of calling them in on do you need four, 24 or 48 hours to think about this, you know? And so we just kind of name the Snickers moment. Yeah, I wish I could get a vending machine here, actually, Steph, and just have nothing but Snickers.

Steph 32:04

Yes.

Cherie 32:05

And just encourage people to just bring humour in, laugh it off, and just recognize having I'm I'm offended and I'm allowed to be. I'm I'm allowed to be. Just name it. Yes.

Steph 32:16

Yeah.

Cherie 32:17

But also probably need to grab a Snickers, metaphorically or genuinely. Yeah. Um, and come back in for 24, 48 hours. And I can say that in those same meetings that have felt a little bit, ooh, this is blowing up, I've seen the best of those people 48 hours like later if they needed to. They just need to sit and digest and do better.

Steph 32:39

It's classic TDP as well, to like make it humorous. And like instead of us just being like, hey, we can see this, it's like, hey, Snickers. But it's yeah, I think for lots of leadership teams, like there's a powerful tool, which is humor.

Cherie 32:56

Yeah. I don't think people lean into humor enough in workplaces. So agree. I just think we could be a little bit funnier. I think we should give ourselves permission to just laugh off a lot more. Not everything's that deep. It's not that deep. It's not that deep.

Steph 33:14

It's one of our favorite sayings.

The Client Meeting Gone Wrong

Cherie 33:16

It really is, you know. And a few people out there will do your gallops strength tests and so on. It won't surprise you at all, Steph, but humour's my number one. I just need it. I need it to feel well, I need it to exist well. And I just think too much is too deep within workplaces when it doesn't need to be. So if we can, like the Snickers moment, just start bringing in a few humorous things. Like at the digital picnic, we have an about me book, which lists out people's like, here's how you get the best from me. These are my quirks. But at the top of them, there's a baby photo as well as their current day photo. And if you're ever just feeling a little shitty with your founder one day, just open up, you know, the that about me book. Look at their baby photo. You can't stay mad. They're so fucking cute. Yeah. They're a baby. That's it. So same goes for colleagues, you know, peer-to-peer and so on. Like it's just um bring in the humor or the endearing and just have an ability to laugh at yourself. Like, I remember a few years back now, a long time ago, I guess, TDP, we were not doing well from a lead generation perspective. And we got this call up, you know, from a bit of a dream client, actually, but a very intimidating personality. I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna say Miranda Priestley from The Devil Wears Prada, but something around that spot, you know. Um, and we really wanted to impress this person, and we definitely wanted them on our portfolio. So they wanted to catch up. Uh, they wanted to catch up at a cafe, which I was like, ah, it's not my favorite thing as an autistic person. I hate coffee, uh, it's super loud, I can't hear them. I'm concentrating on so much. Um, but I was like, yeah, I'll catch up where I would catch up on the muddy banks of a river for you, you know. So we get there, I get there and I tell my team a lot is writing on it. They really wanted me to nail this meeting. And so I get to the cafe. I'm early, because that's big shere coin and energy, and I'm scripting because autistic women script every social interaction, really, and it's very tiring, you know. So I'm like, all right, they're gonna walk in, I'll stand up, I'll shake their hand. And I was just playing that scene out in my head. But what I hadn't anticipated was they walked in, but they're a kiss on the cheek kind of person. Uh, so they leant in to kiss me. My brain couldn't keep up, just hadn't processed the cheek kiss. So I very aggressively, you know this story. Yeah, I very aggressively shook their left breast. And I kept shaking it. Like it just wouldn't stop. It was like, uh, like I just was like, no. My head was like, no. But the body just kept shaking that breast. And it was, you know, she is a beautiful woman with um just a healthy bust. It was just awful. It was so awful. I still think about that moment in the shower sometimes. I'm like, oh my god, you know, um, so yeah, she uh didn't bring it up at all in the moment.

Steph 36:17

Oh gosh, what a queen.

Cherie 36:18

Oh, I just I would have wanted her to laugh. Yeah. I would have wanted her to say, you just shook my breast. Oh. And I would have been like, I dare.

Steph 36:25

She was probably thinking, no, like I won't embarrass her. Like that's what I thought. But you just wanted it out on the table.

Cherie 36:31

I wanted it out on the table and just say, wow, did that did that just happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so that didn't get raised and we sat and just talked strategy. And I'm trying so hard to keep it together, you know. Um, and I I I still spoke strategy somehow, somehow. Got back to the offices and just collapsed on the floor with the team and described the story of the breast. And we won the client. Wow. And still to this day, she sends me a message every year on the day that I shook her breast and says, Happy breast anniversary.

Steph 37:03

So when did she acknowledge it?

Cherie 37:05

When did only on the first year anniversary? She's such an icon. Yep.

Steph 37:09

She really is a queen. Well, she's a queen. 365 days. She's like, I'll sit on this.

Cherie 37:14

She did. She's like, I'm gonna sit, I'ma have you sit.

Steph 37:18

You know, you didn't think about that.

Cherie 37:20

Absolutely. And then I just get a WhatsApp message out of goddamn nowhere that says, On this day, one year ago, I went to kiss your cheek and you assaulted me. Um, and I just love her for it. She's such a literal icon.

Steph 37:37

Yeah.

Cherie 37:37

That's on not staying wounded. Like I just got back and bloody laughed with the team. We just said, well, that's not gonna be your client that we're gonna win. Um, you've literally harassed her. And we did. We we got the client, I guess, you know, just sometimes being your awkward turtle self just leads you to your people who can wait 365 days like a literal icon and say, Remember that day? And I'm like, oh my God, is this when you first bring it up?

Steph 38:03

You asked it. Yeah, but yeah, just like not letting things worry you. It's just not that deep. Yeah.

Cherie 38:11

Uh I just have to be okay. I I have to go on a journey of making sure I'm not offendable because I will offend myself week in and week out by how ridiculous I really am. I just can't read a kiss on the cheek, for example. You know, so I'm I'm gonna spend my lifetime either being humiliated or laughing at myself, thinking, you just shook her breast, Shuri.

Steph 38:36

Yeah.

Cherie 38:36

Aggressively. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph 38:38

You've got to make it fun and funny to yourself, because otherwise, yeah, you can just go down this dark rabbit hole of, you know, why am I like this? 100%.

Cherie 38:49

I don't want to be wounded. I think it's just funny. It'll be a great story somewhere. So my kids will probably share that story one day. They love it.

Victim Mode Versus Creator Mode

Steph 38:57

Okay, so for those leaders who are listening and, you know, they might recognize in themselves that, yep, I do take criticism hard. I am struggling to be unoffendable. What's that first step that they can take to start on their unoffendable leadership journey?

Final Takeaways

Cherie 39:14

Yeah, you know what? I don't even think it's just for the leaders. I think it's just everyone. And I would say don't minimize hurt. Like I don't, I really can't stress that enough. And it's what I said before, Steph. We have every right to feel hurt by things that people say or do to us or situations that unfold if we're talking just here like workplace, sure, but it can go beyond that. Feel it, but don't lead from it. And I really have got to a point now as a leader where I think we've always we've got two choices. You know, there's two modes that we can play in. So on the left, there's the victim mode, and on the right, there's the creator mode. So I'm always asking myself, do I want to be the victim of whatever's just happened to me, or do I want to like be the creator? So in my work and in terms of my career, I don't want to be the victim of my career. I want to be the creator of it, you know, and that's sort of what I really guide people here at TDP all the time. I can recognize victim mode. I'm fluent in it. I can spot someone who's defaulting to victim mode when they have every opportunity to go creative mode instead. And I won't call it in those exact words because that would feel a little unkind, to be really honest. I don't want to say, oh, you're being such a victim. That's that's mean. You know, but what I'll do instead is name the things that are in victim mode and portray what creator mode could look like, you know. Um, and so to anyone listening to this podcast, I want you to ask the same questions of yourself. Am I being the victim of my career or am I being the victim of my own business, or am I being the creator of it? You know, um, we say the same, my husband and I, to our two children. We don't want our children to be victims, and they're hardly victims, they've had a really good life so far. But they're also two neurodivergent kids. Our son went through really horrific bullying in primary school, and so once we healed the very physical and mental parts of that associated bill, you know, that bullying, we decided what does creator mode look like for our son? And how do we get him there? And how do we get him to embrace that as well? And I'm really proud of where he's got to. Uh, it's just a masterclass in creator mode, to be perfectly honest, when he had every right to stay in victim mode and make that bullying story his ongoing narrative, you know. So, yeah, to people listening, victim mode doesn't look great on anyone at work, especially. There's not really anything that traumatic happening in a workplace, unless you're in a really horrific workplace that would really call for someone to stay in that mode. I think instead we should sort of try our very best to get to create a mode. And sometimes all we need is four, twenty four, or forty-eight hours to get there. You're allowed to just hang out for a little bit there, but try your best to get to that next spot and do whatever you need to do to get there. So, Steph, you and I had a mini masterclass in that the other week where something big had happened in my personal life and it rattled me. And we were due to actually record a podcast the next day, I think it was. And I said, if you really need me to, I'm gonna do it. But I want to let you know I'm rattled. And that's a big thing when it comes from me. If if your gal is rattled, she's genuinely rattled. Yeah. Um, so I said, if you need me to, I will dig so much deeper and I'll be there. But what I'm asking for is just XYZ more days, and then I can get there because dot dot dot. And you did that, and that allowed me to sit in my little victim mode for just, I just needed a cry. That's all I needed. I'm human. I had my cry, I got over it, and then I'm just back to my happy-go-lucky self, like two, what, 48 hours later, ready to roll in creator mode again, you know? So that's what I'd wish on everyone. That's the biggest lesson on offendability and unoffendability. It's like, well, do you want to choose to stay in that spot 48 hours after your brain doesn't really have the capacity to stay there? So, what are you doing that's choosing to stay there? And how can you get to that better spot that feels better for you and everyone around you?

Steph 43:29

Amazing. No pitching tents, everybody. Just sit there for a little while and then, yeah, keep on, keep on creating, keep on moving. Thank you so much for joining us. If you would like to support our podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, and we will see you next week.

Cherie 43:44

Thanks for listening to the climb with Cherie Clonan and Steph Clifford. Here's to growth, grit, and bloody good stories.