Calm leadership: Founder habits that protect your energy

What changes after you survive a brutal season of founderhood? In this episode, we unpack calm leadership, the founder habits that help you protect your energy, and why reactive leadership can pull a team straight into chaos. Cherie shares the leadership boundaries, mindset shifts, and everyday decisions that help her choose calm leadership over overreaction, protect her energy, and lead more steadily when work gets messy. If you’re trying to build better founder habits, move away from reactive leadership, and create a more grounded version of calm leadership, this one’s for you.

Key takeaways:

• Calm leadership is built by choosing peace over chaos. 
• Reactive leadership creates stress, slower leadership creates better decisions. 
•  Protecting your energy is a core founder habit, not a luxury. 
•  Fake urgency trains founders to react fast instead of respond well. 
•  Healthy leadership boundaries stop other people’s chaos from running your day. 
•  Creator mode helps founders solve problems, victim mode keeps them stuck. 
•  Strong leaders ask better questions instead of rushing to fix everything. 
•  Quiet confidence in leadership comes from protecting, not proving.

This episode was proudly sponsored by PocketSmith.
Get 50% off your first two months of PocketSmith’s Foundation plan here.

Hosted by Cherie Clonan [@cherie_thedigitalpicnic] and co-hosted and produced by Steph Clifford [@stephssocials] 

Follow us on Instagram @theclimbpod_

Check out our agency @thedigitalpicnic > we teach digital marketing, and we can manage yours, too. 

Transcript

Money Chats And PocketSmith Deal

Cherie 0:00

Every Sunday, my husband and I sit down for a money chat. I know that's not sexy, but it's been wildly useful.

Steph 0:05

No, I actually love that because I feel like I'm at the age where I'm like, okay, I need to stop guessing where my money's going.

Cherie 0:11

Yes, and that's exactly where PocketSmith helps. You can track what you spend and earn, categorize and label spending, set up budgets, and view your finances in a calendar and actually forecast your cash flow up to 60 years into the future. And for neurodivergent brains, that flexibility matters. Sometimes you don't need more willpower. You need a system that makes the information easier to see.

Steph 0:33

So whatever your goals, like saving, paying things down, or just trying not to spend your whole salary on takeaway, PocketSmith allows you to easily track and measure your money and get to enjoy the process of building toward your financial goals.

Acknowledgement Of Country

Why This Follow Up Matters

Cherie 0:46

If you'd like to manage your money like a pro, PocketSmith has a special deal for the Climb listeners. Get 50% off your first two months of PocketSmith's foundation plan. To get your deal, go to PocketSmith.com/slash the Dash Climb Dash Podcast. See our show notes for more details. We're recording this episode on the beautiful, unceded lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We want to express our gratitude for being able to create this podcast on this land, and we pay our respects to their enduring culture and connection to country. We recognize that sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the Climb, a podcast about the messy, brilliant, relentless journey of building something meaningful. As an introvert who believes in adding value, not noise, every 40-minute conversation is built to respect your time, but also actually teach you something useful.

Steph 1:43

Hello, everybody. I am gonna break the fourth wall here a little bit and let you know that we are recording just after we have released episode one and two. And Sheree, we've kind of been overwhelmed, would you say? Is that fair enough? Or understatement?

Cherie 1:58

Understatement of the century. I'm actually, we were saying, weren't we, how grateful we are that we're recording as a season, so therefore batching. And we've now experienced the genuine borderline overwhelming joy of having feedback on the first couple of episodes by the time we're now recording this one. And I don't know about you, but uh the DMs are DMing, the feedback is feedbacking, and it's just bloody beautiful.

Choosing Calm Over Chaos

Steph 2:22

Yeah, we're so grateful for everyone who has sent a message and listened to the first two apps. It was, I think everyone just fell in love with how vulnerable you were with telling that story, Cherie. And we wanted to do a little bit of a follow-up, I guess. Yes. Um, I mean, this episode could definitely stand on its own, but it also just feels like the most beautiful follow-up to episodes one and two. And so we want to talk to okay, you've climbed. What are those habits in founders that, you know, keep you on the island side rather than tunnel of shit side? So, my first question for you, Cherie, is thinking about that version of you who was in the thick of a really deep climb. Yeah. Or steep. Both. Yeah, steep and deep. And shitty.

Cherie 3:10

Absolutely.

Steph 3:11

What do you think about that old version of you now?

Cherie 3:13

Yeah, I I'm proud of her. I'm honestly so proud of her. I'm aware so much that we can only grow through what we go through. You know what I mean? So for me, I definitely grew through what I went through. Um, some people don't honestly grow through going through. So I already think that's that's one of my favorite things about myself. Like, I won't just go through something, I'll freaking grow through it as well. And for me, the biggest shift has been just landing on, you know, calm instead of chaos. I've always been someone who prefers, you know, calm over chaos. And I I, as a personality type, I guess, I'm an introvert. I'm a demand-avoid and autistic woman. So I have to be really honest with you. I've always shied away from really chaotic people. They honestly terrify me, and I don't mean that in a judgmental way. It's just it's just who I am as a person. Like my nervous system just doesn't seem to be able to cope with a whole lot of chaos, especially if it's a choice, you know. The thing about that though is, and and the thing about founderhood is you can just get plunged into chaos, even if it's not your preferred state of mind/slash being. And so when I was in my tunnel of shit era, it felt like I hate this almost forced chaos when that's just not how I roll. I think in those early days of that, especially that climb, you know, it was just more reactive leadership because I was still learning. It was fast, parts of it, many parts were messy. You know, now I'm just I'm so much slower. Like it's like my autistic brain has the ability. If you think about like the hair and the tortoise, right? My brain wants to go at hair speed, but it's a choice for me now to be tortoise. I just prefer tortoise speed. I'm responsible for so many more people now. We've been growing. Don't know if you noticed.

Steph 5:05

Yeah, I noticed. We don't have any desks.

Cherie 5:07

Oh my goodness, we don't. Thank God for those 15 freaking bean bags as we look around and look at them. Um, that's your desk. But um, exactly. My brain is hair speed, but turtle is a choice, tortoise is a choice. I love being there, and I think people are relying on me to be less reactive and chaos and so on. I'm really proud of that growth, you know. So I wanted to ask you, like, you know, um, more like not a question, but just a thinking statement, Steph. Like, have you ever noticed, you know, that some of the strongest people you've hung around and enjoyed their present, they don't overreact. Have you do you when I share that, do you think of a certain person in your mind that you just kind of look up to? That's why I really look up to Jacinda Art. And it's also why I look up to my dad. Like you can just say so much more with less, you know. And so I want to hope that that's a little more. I'm not Jacinda and I'm definitely not Shane, I'm Cherie, but that's me now coming just um home, I would say, Steph. Like I, it wasn't me always, unfortunately. I'd say that's you know, part personality. Like I want to stay in the calm over the chaos just through a PDA profile, but also my upbringing. I was raised by one of the most calm, regulated human beings I've literally ever met. I'm 43 years old today at the time of recording.

Steph 6:30

And I just for a second I thought you meant it was your birthday, and I genuinely nearly died. I'm gonna have to watch me back on the video because I was like, what?

Cherie 6:40

Hilarious. That's me bringing chaos, unnecessary chaos, into your beautiful little world.

Steph 6:44

And I know it can't be your birthday because our birthdays are very close.

The Cost Of Reactive Leadership

Cherie 6:47

So we are, no, not today, but I'm you know, I'm 43 years old at the time of recording. And I think I was trying to think about this before I got into this podcast. Um, I think I've only ever had my dad raise his voice at me three times. He still commanded such a strong presence in our home. We look up to him, we respect him, but he's only raised his voice three times. And all of those three times I completely deserved it. I was being a complete asshole. You know, so I also think like those people who rarely overreact, part of it is all of what I've shared. Like it's, you know, your personal preferences and so on, but it's definitely also training. So I've had to learn, you know, through what our folks would have heard in episode one and two, how to stay centered when things feel like they're falling apart. Because if you can't stay centered, you're gonna take your team on the worst ride that they never signed up for. And that is not fair. Nobody is remunerated enough to go on a bullshit founder ride. It's not a magical carpet ride. It's a, I don't know what, like a, are we allowed to say an acetrip or something? As a girl who's never used anything illicit in her life, I'm imagining it would be like that. I also don't pretend things are fine. You know, I I refuse to let chaos own me now. I've got a little bit, I guess, controlly with that. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna get owned by this. Like, I'm gonna own the chaos instead, and that's like a decision. I also refuse to be owned by someone else's chaos. You know, those people that just suck you into their bullshit worlds. I just don't want to do that, you know? And it's the reason why is I've realized by neurotype, personality, upbringing, positive influences in my life, like my dad. You know, I perform best when I'm at peace. And the better my mental state, uh, I would say the sharper my decision making is. And I really owe it to my team to be in a really good mental state. So leaning into people's chaos just it's it's never gonna get me there. And then also choosing chaos as a lifestyle choice as a founder is never ever going to get the best out of my beautiful team. The people addicted to chaos, they're addicted to that because it's all they know, you know. So they actually sabotage peace, either their own and especially the peace of those around them. They create problems where there are none, you know, they start fights for no reason. I've come to realise it's because peace actually makes them feel uncomfortable, so they only know how to destroy that. And I've realized you can't fix that. So that's hard for a solutions-oriented woman. But I'm like, I'm out. You do you. This ain't for me.

Steph 9:24

Do you feel like with this journey that you've come out the other side of something?

Cherie 9:28

I think I've come out of many things, but probably could speak to a couple of the bigger things, which is I've definitely come out the other side of reactivity because I've experienced the worst of what reactivity has to offer and the impact that that has on me, my life, my founder experience, and my team as well. And a lot of my reactivity, when you hear the word reactivity, sometimes people might have a negative connotation with that. My worst reactivity is um so well intended. It's usually because I'm trying to do the best thing possible for a person, which leads to the worst possible outcome. Uh, it's like, I don't know, the people who just feel compelled to pick up a hitchhiker or something, like they want to do good and then neck minute, you know. Um, so that would be me. You know, I've just um had to overcome that as a founder, and uh I can think back to one particular example. And I'm not I'm not gonna go into details about this one, it's just a little too private, even for a podcast, absolutely. So I'm protecting my peace and choosing calm over chaos here. But I just wanted to give an example for other founders, and I shared this in greater detail at our recent comeback conference, knowing that I also shared with everyone, you're not to share this to the media. Um, so I had that little disclaimer there. I sort of remember a few years, like many years back, my I guess hitchhiker state of mind, like picking up hitchhiker state of mind, meant that I was picking up phone calls at like 10 p.m. at night from team, you know, um, just thinking, oh God, it's 10 p.m. This must be urgent. I better answer. Um, and I just think, well, I should treat myself like an employee. I've got uh my husband works in work cover. Like that's a work cover claim to be called at 10 p.m. for a non-emergency, right? So on this particular evening, I picked up the call. Uh, it was after 10. Uh, in their mind, it was urgent. For me, it wasn't. And I shouldn't have picked up the phone. And I'm not going to go into any details, but just to answer your question, Steph, these days I will never pick up a call at 10 o'clock ever again. I just don't think anything is urgent enough to do that. And if it really was, I imagine I'd get a text-based update that I could probably screenslash do I really want to? Because again, without going into too much detail, that 10 p.m. phone call changed my life for the worse for a pretty long period there, to be so honest with you, and really negative impacts on my family. And I had to spend a lot of time, I guess, away from my family to really reflect on my reactivity and what sort of landed me there. And I was grateful for that to just sit in peace and have to sort of ask myself hard questions around why did you why did you feel like you needed to pick up that phone at that time of night and solve a problem for someone beyond what any CEO's role is to do, and so on. And so yeah, I guess I realize through all of that, I it's not that I'm addicted to chaos, I don't put myself in that category. It's actually the opposite. I still will say I seem to be too reactive as a leader. So I've come out the other side of that, but it's an ongoing journey and an ongoing decision to make. But also uh, this is a sadder realization that I could be exploited for my brain. Um so hear me out. Like, I am wired for solutions orientation by neurotype. My brain's also a fast thinking one. When there's a problem, my brain immediately wants to fix it. It's an autistic way of being for me. That's at least I can only say that that's my lived experience as an autistic woman. Um, and unfortunately for me, the wrong people will exploit that because they'll realise I'm fast thinking, solutions-oriented, and I want to get to a fix really quickly. You know, so they benefit from someone else solving the problems, you know, for them. And that's popped up a lot in my life, you know. So I think that and that alone has felt like really coming out on the other side in such a huge way.

Steph 13:33

So, what about maybe a habit that you feel like you have been able to completely shake post tunnel of shit days?

Cherie 13:40

It's a really interesting question, Steph. And actually, um, I had to shift up my answer before we hit record on this one because I was actually in a sales call this morning before we um rolled into the studio. Studio.

Steph 13:55

I'm like Cherie, the cameras are on. They know we're not in the show.

Cherie 13:59

They're gonna figure out on YouTube that full episodes on YouTube, by the way, guys. I mean on podcast recording days, this is a studio. Uh any normal day at TDP officers of this is our red sofa. But yeah, before I got into this studio, this your set, I was on a sales call with a really interesting brand. Actually, I'll tell you all about it later. And before, while we were waiting for one or two more people to join um the call, I was having a conversation with someone about how your early days working gigs kind of really shape you. So I was a Maccas kid. Um we've shared, we have the same beeping at night. Yes. You know, my Maccas days, we were always taught, I don't know if this came through for you as well, you got to be there 15 minutes early. And if you're not, that's considered late. But that messed me up so much that now, Steph, unfortunately for my two long-suffering children, I get to everything 15 minutes earlier than the 15 minutes. Yeah. It is a sickness. And McDonald's, you know, kind of yeah, shaped um that habit. Like, let's fast track to my early days copywriting, and I'm working for two, like one after the other, but in consecutive order, two of Australia's largest online publications. Really intense environments to the point where you actually had to put an out of office on your emails when you stepped away from your desk to go to the bathroom.

Steph 15:23

Oh my god. Yep.

Cherie 15:24

Yep. I know. Wow. I I wish you could all see Steph's face, like her eyes.

Steph 15:29

Clip it up.

Cherie 15:31

You know, and oh man, that's some fake urgency. You know what I mean? And especially for a woman with endo, like I can't guarantee that I'm just gonna have a two-minute bathroom visit. Like sometimes it can be a whole ordeal, you know, in that bathroom. And so that really shaped me as well to be a very reactive human being because I just thought, I can't even switch up a sanitary pad situation for myself without this feeling like an emergency/slash fake urgency because I've had to put an off out of office on my emails to say, hi, I've stepped away from my desk for five minutes. I'll be back soon. Like, how infantilizing, you know. So yeah, that really shaped me as well. And, you know, I would say I'm 43 now. Don't worry, it's not my birthday today. Um it takes a long time to shake off that fake urgency. It just kind of moulded me in my really early years of trying to be a professional woman. So these days I no longer respond quickly. I choose not to respond quickly and instead to respond well. That's like every day I'm like quick as shit. Well is just well, you know. I actively listen. Really, I'm just I I hope this episode doesn't sound like I'm pumping myself up, but I'm just sharing what I'm really proud to have um, you know, got to as um, I guess this point in my journey. But I'm a really active listener. Ask the right questions as recently as I don't know, a few months back, I guess now, where a particular client, we um had been on probably a five-year journey with them. Um and I just wanted to ask them, hey, uh it's been five years. Do you want this working relationship to continue? Because we were just getting to a weird little spot. And so I just wanted to ask really honest questions as a non-reactive, non-chaos, like just I want to hear you. And it turned out they did, uh, actually. They just needed me to shop really honestly and and in a non-reactive way in that moment. And they even sent an email prior saying they were feeling a bit nervous about that meeting. I'm like, nervous? Like, I'm the agency, I'm the one who's meant to be nervous. There's nothing to be nervous about here, you know. So that five-year relationship, you know, kind of continues. But uh, I would say that's one of the best meetings we've actually had with them because I said, I do you want to work together on a on an ongoing basis? Because you can dip if you don't. Like I needed them to hear, we're not that agency that is retention at all costs. I would say as well, um, another flex. Lately, I have like a little chat GPT thread going with myself, and it really helps me with this, I would say, most annoying uh thing about myself, which is the neurodivergent urge to overexplain. Yep. So I'll throw something into that thread and just say, this is how I'd love to respond as an over-explainy autistic woman. And then it usually says, calm your farm. Strip that bad boy back and get bloody serious if you want to be taken seriously.

Protecting Energy Like Revenue

Steph 18:30

You've also told me that you developed another habit that had a really significant impact as well.

Cherie 18:36

Yes, I have had a really big impact as well. And it was this moment where I realized, I think I just read one of those viral leadership quotes on Instagram. I'm embarrassed to even admit what the account was. It was like borderline bro. And it was something like, and I I do agree with this, it was like the CEO of Apple Now, maybe where he was like businesses don't go out of business because they run out of money. They actually go out of business when the founder runs out of energy.

Steph 19:02

Yeah.

Cherie 19:03

And so that was a real moment for me. I think it should be a moment for anyone to listen to that and just you've all seen the quote. It's go it goes viral every two months on Instagram. So this is nothing like revolutionary or anything, but that one just kind of keeps me coming back to knowing how important my energy is, you know, and so I protect it at all costs. And so that's actually one really big habit that I've um built in. So I actually protect my energy now, like it's our revenue at TDP because it is. Yeah, I guess to break away even further from that. I actually made my own energy a KPI that I had to hit on my job description. I love that. Yeah, right. Yep. Because I also just know how expensive it is for this business when I run out of energy, you know. And then the second thing I would say, uh, another habit that I've probably always floated around knowing how important it is in my own personal life, but it's honouring, and I've spoken about this on, you know, honestly, other episodes, but honouring how important creator mode is instead of victim mode. Do you want to be the victim of your own business or the creator of it? And so I ask myself this all the time. I'm like, am I being a bit of a victim here? Like, why does this keep happening to me? And it's more like, no, no, how do I create my way out of whatever scenario I'm not particularly liking for myself? Um, I do just want to say though, on the victim mode, creator mode thing, I just I really need to hold a space for like genuine victims, you know. Um, there are things that can happen in your life that you're a genuine victim of. And I don't want to like diminish anyone's experiences there because, you know, I'm not gonna go into it in too much detail in this episode or I don't even know if any, but you know, I I had a really tough first five years where I could easily say I was the victim of some, you know, genuinely horrific things, but I'm just talking more like it's it's just a job, it's not that deep type stuff. Yeah, they would um be uh the big changes for me and the the the bigger habits with the biggest impacts. And so I often Dave and I we just um I think it's like a family guy quote or something. It's like it's a lifestyle, Brian. You know, I don't know where that is from. I don't watch the TV. That sounds like Stewie for the babies. Yes, got it. Um those two things that I've just spoken about, they're a lifestyle, you know. Creator mode is a lifestyle and energy preservation is a lifestyle.

Steph 21:27

It's funny because ever since you've been talking about creator mode and victor mode, which I feel like it's probably since I started TDP, but we've been speaking a lot about it since doing the podcast. Yes. And um, you said to me, once you start seeing it, you can't unsee it. It's almost frustrating how much when you see it.

Cherie 21:44

I know.

Steph 21:45

It's so hard to ignore it. And if anyone's watched How I Met Your Mother, they have this episode about like the glass shattering. Yep. And it's kind of like when you date someone and um once you notice a certain quality about them. It's kind of like our version of the gicks nowadays. It's like Once you notice it, you can't unnotice it. And it's um incredible, yeah, when you do start picking it up and you you'll you'll just be listening to someone speak to you and you're like, oh victim. What a victim.

Cherie 22:10

Yeah, I know it's so true, isn't it? Like, yeah, and that's an ick for me actually. Um, too much victim mode talk is a bit of an ick. I'm not here at TDP. If someone's gone victim mode, I it's my job uh or their leader's job, their their direct manager to coach them out of that. I don't let that become an ick, but yeah, Steph, like in my day-to-day life, I'm just like, oh, you know, it's like when you ask someone, hey, how's your day? Oh, well. Yeah. It's like, oh, come on.

Steph 22:36

What about any habits that you've developed that maybe people wouldn't be able to see from the outside looking in?

Cherie 22:41

Yeah, this one I feel most proud of this actually. I love when you change things up so much that people can't even recognize it from the outside looking in, but I can feel it. That's all that matters. Um, I don't need to prove myself anymore. So I would say I've definitely hit my quiet confidence era and I'm really proud to have finally arrived. I don't need validation anymore, especially external, um, which is a big thing for someone who works in marketing where we get validated with every single piece of content that we share online kind of instantly, you know, for our clients, for our own content, you know, things like that. I could not care less anymore. I just don't need that. I no longer react to noise. Um, I say noise in inverted commas. I'm not talking literal noise, although I would also react to that as an autistic woman, but I'm talking like the distracty stuff that's just a waste of your time. I know my lane. I really do, you know, know my lane. And I just I find that I don't need to prove anything anymore. Instead, I just focus on protecting um rather than proving.

Steph 23:47

How do you protect your energy now in comparison to earlier in your career?

Cherie 23:52

Oh, it's so different. Um, bit of a boundaried queen now. Um, I've got really strict calendar boundaries. A lot of them I can't even take credit for. I'm only more empowered because of the 5'2 powerhouse by my side, not even behind me, she's by my side. Her name is Danielle Prince. Um, she's my formidable EA, and she's a calendar boss. Like she just knows my calendar so much better than I do, and we have really strict calendar boundaries. We also, Danny and I, notice that I drown in requests for free. It sucks. It's the worst thing about being a disabled founder in that people just exploit me. They really do. They just exploit marginalized folk, I've noticed. Um, and they really just hold me to that bullshit tagline of allegedly nicest place on the internet. So, you know, they think that they're just one person, but they don't understand their 70 DMs in one week asking if they could um buy me a coffee. I don't drink coffee, um, and I also don't have time or energy um to have my brain intensely picked. And so Danny really protects me from that as well. In fact, she gets insulted on behalf of me because she sees every single request. And so she really protects. Uh so for that reason, I lean on her really heavily. I'm also really careful about who gets access to me. I'm really strategic about where I place my focus. Um, it's coming back to that energy KPI, to be really honest. Um, I'm really sorry. No, I'm not sorry to say this actually. I'm gonna rephrase that and say, I'm proud to share this. I have got zero fucking tolerance for team escalating a problem to me without coming with three solutions attached to it.

Steph 25:44

Nice.

Cherie 25:46

I'm like, oh, come on, just pretend to try. You know what I mean? They don't have to be right. None of those solutions have to be right. I couldn't give a shit about whether they're the right solutions or not. I just need to know that someone's given enough of a fuck to just have a crack before bringing the problem to me to solve, you know. So that's something I'm really like crystal clear on now. If someone escalates something to me and there's not even like a half-baked solution, I'm like, try that one again, bruh.

Steph 26:14

You know what it's like? Um, sorry, this is too niche, but it's like you're doing your math test. And you remember you used to get um marks for your working, and if you didn't show you working out, then you don't get the extra marks.

Cherie 26:26

So true.

Steph 26:27

Show us how you did it and how you got there.

Cherie 26:29

Spot the woman partnered up with a teacher. It's that is exactly it. Just show me you're working out. Yeah. Um, otherwise, I kind of deem it. I don't like to use the word lazy because that's quite a triggering word for neurodivergent people, but can't think of another word like just escalating something so reactively themselves without any solutions or working out being demonstrated. I'm like, this feels a bit lazy, you know, and I I just feel a bit disrespected in this moment. So I'll I'll push back straight away. Yeah. Um, proudly so. Uh never it's it's done kindly and it's with their growth in mind, you know. So I've also had really incredible conversations with my incredible EA, Danny. Um, I had to tell her, like, hey, I don't need to know everything, I trust you. Um, and that was such a breakthrough. That was like the absolute betterment of our working relationship because I honestly needed her to know that I completely trust her to put out fires without my even needing to hear about it. And if anything, hearing about every fire that she's put out messes with my energy. She's the best. Shout out to it.

Steph 27:36

Okay, so what does a good day look like for you now?

Cherie 27:40

Yeah, okay, so a good day for me now looks like me being less involved in the day-to-day. I like to go bigger picture now. That's my happy estate. I do not need to be in everything. I don't even want to be, and I couldn't be now. Um the size of our business, I just can't be in every meeting or decision or proofreading, whatever, right? So it's just not going to be like that. So for that reason, I let my team lead. Um, I let them fail. I celebrate that. Well, you know, we have even failure awards called flearing. So uh learning from fail. I want folks to learn and flirn. And I'm just into trust now more than I am control.

Steph 28:20

And are there any other ways that your role has changed now that the business has changed so much and grown as well?

Leadership Without Proving Yourself

Cherie 28:26

Yeah, definitely. I think it's, you know, shifted from being the person doing the work to, and I say this really proudly, being the person designing the environment and I hope good environment where people can do their best work. You know, so I tell everyone on team clarity is honestly not my agency strength. Um, I rely on really strong operations folk to interpret my visionary um ways of, you know, moving and being and do the best thing for it. But I do try so hard to honour the clarity piece, uh, given the industry that I'm in and how important that is. I set the direction, I protect the standard, and I think I was reminded of how important this is and how proud this work is now when uh more recently we had a team member resign after a lengthy period of time at the digital picnic, and our client obviously uh felt, oh um no, you know, and I said, Hey, this is a good thing. Like I wanted to pass on my non-reactivity to them as well and help them get to a calm, regulated spot with that. And they they got a little bit like I'm nervous. And they said, Can you just guarantee me that there'll be no other changes after this? And I said, I can't. That would be absolutely dishonest for me to do that. I said, but what I can promise you is that everyone you'll work with during your partnership with the digital picnic will be a kind genius. And if they don't fit that bill, you probably wouldn't meet them because we probably wouldn't have them pass a probationary period. In fact, not probably, we won't. Yeah. So it's my job to protect the standard now, and I can really proudly as a result say to clients, can't guarantee you forever attention. That's ridiculous, you know. But what I can guarantee is you will always work with kind genius, you know, and that's a proud statement for me to make. So I am less involved in the day-to-day. It doesn't mean that I care less. It actually means that I'm trusting myself and everyone around us more.

Steph 30:23

What about what leadership feels like to you now compared to what it felt like in the earlier years?

Cherie 30:29

Uh well, I don't want to sing, but if there was uh a TikTok audio, it just reminds me this journey that I've been on. I think I would be sounding like that Olivia Rodrigo um trending once upon a time audio where it starts out where she's like, oh my God. And then it flicks to all the time. I'm grateful. Sorry, you had to hear that. You are welcome. I'll just let you go. You're watching, honestly, for anyone who's listening to this Jeff was like, oh, she's still going. It's the only audio I can think of. Like I've just gone from ah to um I'm grateful.

Steph 31:11

I did know the word.

Cherie 31:14

But you just wanted to watch me sing it. Thanks. Um, you know, so I feel like that's been my journey, you know. Um, so it was loud, now it's quiet. I would say not even loud, it was screamy at times. Like, not me screaming, but it just felt screamy in my head, you know. Um, I am not easily pulled into noise at all. I'm a bit of a Killian Murphy. Like I just sometimes feel like in the team would say this, um, and I think they like it about me, but they're just like, oh, I think I just tried to pull you into a fake crisis, didn't I? And I'm like, yes.

unknown 31:49

Yeah, yeah.

Cherie 31:50

You know, um, so I'm just not dragged into noise very easily or even at all. I can see things more clearly. I won't sing to you again. The rain has gone. Um, I don't feel the same pressure, honestly, to prove myself in every single moment. And I trust myself more, you know. Uh, more recently, we had I it was probably that same person, it was a long-term tenure. They resigned. I was really happy for them. Um, always want someone to chase something better for themselves. We just had this moment where we got to say, what do we want to do next with this role? Because actually, when they resigned, it was at a point where I was actually thinking this role could use a big JD update. I felt like we've grown so much that the JD no longer reflected like a lot of that. So I was probably gonna do a bit of a big update with that anyway. And so I said to the team, and I was really proud of this non-reactivity when they resigned, I said, I'm not gonna immediately fill this one. I need to take my time. I need to figure out what this role looks like, more honestly, moving forward. And I landed on that. And I felt really proud because it did impact one person more heavily than others, in that uh a particular departmental lead would have to start reporting through to me instead of that particular title for however long it took me to find the right JD for that role and then the right person that they're really happy now. And we've got someone in the role, and it is so early days, but already that departmental lead is like, huh. I think they even said to me as recently as yesterday, you did a goods. Yeah, you know, um, and so I just that was that moment for me where I was like, I love how non-reactive I am now. Like it's just the team sometimes wouldn't even know, but it really can be the thing that gets us to a much better decision rather than a reactive one. Um, so I think in my early days, leadership felt more like performance, whereas now it's actually it feels like something I get to hold, which I feel really proud to hold, actually.

Why Making It Gets Harder

Steph 33:47

Do you think people have a bit of a misconception about what it means to have quote unquote made it?

A Love Letter Of Founder Habits

Cherie 33:52

Uh yes. They definitely do. I think if we were speaking to this particular topic and like making it with regards to this topic, I think people think that it's this like a desk, it's a destination. And once you've arrived, you've made it. Um, sorry to break it to everyone, but when you make it to this particular destination, it doesn't get easier at all. In fact, it's a lot harder. It gets so much harder because you're growing and your leadership is developing and suddenly you're taking on much bigger challenges. I don't want to give a comparison to motherhood here, and I especially want anyone who's got really young children to close their ears. Because everyone talks about, oh my gosh, newborn um baby, this is so hard, this is so hard. And yes, physically, it really is. Hate or break it, it gets so much more challenging. She said it. It's just a different kind of challenge, but it often reminds me. And look, I'm so down for people to slide into our DMs and passionately disagree. Um, and maybe I'm coming from the lived experience of raising neurodivergent kids. But I've actually found, yeah, it's harder at teenager levels. It's full on. And so the same applies to leadership, Steph. Like I've just found that never treat this like a destination where you arrive and suddenly you've made it. Um, because you'll find really surprisingly that when you arrive at the destination and you think you've made it, it's about to get even harder. Um, but the difference is you'll find it easier to navigate the heart because you've built the acumen to be able to do that. So, same as parenting. So that's why I just want to restore like if you're still closing your ears or you actually haven't just um decided no more, I can't listen to this episode. For our parents, um, I'm gonna say that's the easier part with teenagers is that you are ready. You just get more comfortable making decisions without certainty. That's the biggest thing I've noticed, Def. Um, also, I'm gonna say really proudly, I'm actually no longer scared to tell people, I don't know. You know, when I I just am over the ego days of um thinking that I had to have the answer for everything. What a stupid amount of pressure to put on one person. I don't know all the time, you know, and I'm really proud to tell people that I don't know the answer to that, but I'll do my best to find out, or there'll be someone on my team who'd probably have a better chance of answering that well for you. So I would say early on you're chasing growth, you know, but later you're protecting it. And those two things that I've just mentioned there, they require completely different versions of yourself.

Steph 36:28

Yeah.

Cherie 36:28

Yep.

Steph 36:29

I think this episode has obviously been a lot about island life. Yes. But if there are people listening that feel like they're still in their climb, what are those habits that they can take from this episode and walk away with and start implementing early? Yeah. So maybe that tunnel of shit isn't as um long.

Cherie 36:48

Yes, absolutely. So oh my gosh, I could write the book on this one. Yeah. Um, so instead, I wanted to, I got a little romantic on this, if you don't mind. Okay, yeah. I wanted to just almost write like a bit of a love letter to people who might be listening to the podcast. And I've just, I've made the love letter, but it's like a list. Um, so I will read some of that out. So I would say to anyone listening, you know, who's in that um phase right now, I would say if you can learn to pause in the chaos, you'll be able to lead in the calm. That's my favorite thing that I've learned. Um, just pausing in chaos has had me leading so well in calm. Uh, the next thing, don't respond immediately. Let things sit before acting. Protect your energy like it's revenue. That's probably my favorite one. Don't insert yourself into everything. Ask better questions instead of giving faster answers. Don't chase every idea. Uh, normalize not knowing immediately, separate emotion from decision, revisit decisions uh instead of defending them. Like it's such an egotistical thing to defend something that just doesn't even make sense anyway. Like you deep down, you know, you when you don't you fight with someone you know halfway through the fight, what am I doing?

Steph 38:01

Damn it.

Cherie 38:02

So yeah, just you know, um let go of that. Don't confuse urgency with importance, let silence do some of the work. Some of the folks that I've worked with with the lowest self-esteem just cannot sit in comfortable silence. And it's actually uncomfortable for me to watch people do that. It's like just just let it be silent for a bit. This isn't a Zoom call in 2020. We can fill silence with silence, you know. But hold boundaries without over-explaining them as being a really big one for me. Don't take everything personally, and you don't need to be the smartest person in the room.

Steph 38:38

Love those.

Cherie 38:39

Yeah.

Steph 38:40

What's something that you do now that would have felt impossible at an earlier stage in your career?

Cherie 38:46

Oh, I know this without even having to look at any notes that I've written. I um have finally got to a point with thanks to Danny Prince, our icon hero, um, Maven, all of the above. But I actually build time into my calendar to be able to freak and think. Wednesdays, I try my hardest to block that for TDP content because it's an autistic spin, special interest of mine. I I love collaborating with you, Steph, on our content. It's like some of my favourite work to do, and I look forward to Wednesdays. And if someone creeps into that and takes my time on a Wednesday, I'm like, motherfucker.

Steph 39:22

And and we have laughed before when we'll have a meeting on a Monday and Sheree will go, yep, I'll get to that Wednesday. And then Wednesday she'll slide into my Slack DMs and she goes, I don't know what to tell you, but thanks to myself.

Cherie 39:34

I can't believe I thought we were gonna get away with this. Literally, I just love when that Wednesday block stays as a Wednesday block. And anyone who creeps into that, I'm like, you'd really want to be making sure you're creeping in for the right reasons.

Steph 39:48

The big things, yeah.

Cherie 39:49

Yep. And then Friday, and this isn't just for me, but we try to keep this to be the case for the team as well. It's Focus Fridays, so we don't have any internal meetings. We're not on Slack, um, and we're just like leading in and getting the work done. I mean, we tried at the beginning with this to say, oh no, Slack at all. But some people actually, that was actually really anxiety inducing because they just needed an answer to a question. So now we're like, all right, we'll send the message, but if you don't get a response, it's because it's Focus Friday and you just got to kind of wait a little bit longer or shoot off a WhatsApp if you really need um something more urgent. Um, so I love now that I have thinking time and and doing time. And I would have said, oh, to know that that comes twice a week for me now when some of my other you you work like right in front of my office, you see it. My Mondays and my Thursdays. Those days are stacked, but good stacked. It's like um big, important business needle moving business uh meetings and so on, or my one-to-ones on Thursdays, which I love, love all of that, but only because I'm really strict on my Wednesdays and Fridays.

Closing Thoughts

Steph 40:51

So yeah, yeah. Amazing. I feel like there's so many great takeaways, and hopefully this feels like a well rounded out episode to one and two. Yes. Um, and that island life can be pretty good when you put the right habits in place. I guess it's a continual practice, right? It's not just a one and done. You've got to keep up with those self-faceted. It's a lifestyle, Brian. Yeah. What a way to finish. All right. Thank you guys for listening, and we will see you next week.

Cherie 41:21

Thanks for listening to the climb with Cherie Clonan and Steph Clifford. Here's to growth, grit, and bloody good stories. Every Sunday, my husband and I sit down for a money chat. I know that's not sexy, but it's been wildly useful.

Steph 41:37

No, I actually love that because I feel like I'm at the age where I'm like, okay, I need to stop guessing where my money's going.

Cherie 41:42

Yes, and that's exactly where PocketSmith helps. You can track what you spend and earn, categorize and label spending, set up budgets, and view your finances in a calendar and actually forecast your cash flow up to 60 years into the future. And for neurodivergent brains, that flexibility matters. Sometimes you don't need more willpower. You need a system that makes the information easier to see.

Steph 42:04

So, whatever your goals, like saving, paying things down, or just trying not to spend your whole salary on takeaway. PocketSmith allows you to easily track and measure your money and get to enjoy the process of building toward your financial goals.

Cherie 42:17

If you'd like to manage your money like a pro, PocketSmith has a special deal for the climb listeners. Get 50% off your first two months of PocketSmith's foundation plan. To get your deal, go to PocketSmith.comslash the Dash Climb Dash Podcast. See our show notes for more details.