The Climb with Cherie Clonan

How to hire a team that protects your energy

• The Digital Picnic • Season 1 • Episode 10

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We break down what it really means to hire people who protect a neurodivergent founder’s energy. We share the frameworks Cherie uses to spot friction early, set boundaries and build a team culture that supports performance and wellbeing. 

Key Takeaways: 

  • Hiring the right team means hiring people who protect your energy, not just fill a role.
  • Energy raisers reduce friction, support momentum, and make leadership feel lighter.
  • Energy drainers create conflict and unnecessary mental load for founders.
  • A quarterly team energy audit helps founders spot green, amber, and red dynamics early.
  • Strong hiring decisions should measure friction removed, not just work produced.
  • The best hires bring solutions, systems thinking, and lower executive function strain.
  • Do not get seduced by charm or a polished CV while hiring.
  • Brilliant jerks and chronic conflict cost more energy than their output is worth.


This episode was proudly sponsored by Graham Psychology.
Receive an ongoing discount of 20% off all appointment types [therapy and assessments].

Listeners can book directly via the website and enter ’THECLIMBPODCAST’ into the booking notes or call or email and mention the podcast. 


Mentioned in this episode: 



Hosted by Cherie Clonan [@cherie_thedigitalpicnic] and co-hosted and produced by Steph Clifford [@stephssocials] 

Follow us on Instagram @theclimbpod_

Check out our agency @thedigitalpicnic > we teach digital marketing, and we can manage yours, too. 

Sponsor Offer With Graham Psychology

Cherie

At CDP, we cover the full cost of any neurodivergent assessment for our team, and we've seen firsthand how powerful it can be when people have clearer language for how their brain works.

Steph

And that's why we love that at Graham Psychology they have no wait list for therapy or assessments because when you're ready for support, waiting months can be a huge barrier.

Cherie

They've got a large team with a diverse range of experience, multiple locations across Melbourne, and telehealth available for accessibility, convenience, or if you're interstate or overseas.

Steph

Plus, they have payment plans available and low-cost therapy appointments without needing a mental health care plan.

Cherie

And for the Climb listeners, they're offering an ongoing 20% off all appointment types, including therapy and assessments.

Steph

Just book directly through their website and pop the Climb podcast in the booking notes or call or email and mention the podcast and their team will apply the discount.

Cherie

If therapy or assessment support has been on your list, head to the link in the show notes and book with Graham Psychology.

Country Acknowledgement And Show Setup

Cherie

We're recording this episode on the beautiful, unceded lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We want to express our gratitude for being able to create this podcast on this land, and we pay our respects to their enduring culture and connection to country. We recognize that sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to the Climb, a podcast about the messy, brilliant, relentless journey of building something meaningful. As an introvert who believes in adding value, not noise, every 40-minute conversation is built to respect your time, but also actually teach you something useful.

Steph

I am so excited for today's episode because, Sheree, you are going to tell us everything people need to know about hiring a team that protects your own energy and your brain. Being neurodivergent, Shri, I just feel like I have so much to learn from you. So I'm so excited for you to be able to share in this episode. And I'm also excited for our listeners because they are going to be able to walk away knowing how to audit their team's energy, what they're giving them, maybe what they're detracting, and from there make decisions about their hiring and potential moving on, etc. of team. Yep.

Cherie

So we've got the full freaking framework. Yes.

Steph

Step by step. So jump on board. Cherie, you are going to kick us off. Tell us about you've got a you've got a story.

Professional Divas

Cherie

I've always got a story. I mean, do we I feel like we started?

Steph

I could just clone that bit in every episode, really.

Cherie

We should at the end of this whole uh season 551. Yeah. I got a story. You've got a story in Cherie. You got a story, story, story, story. It would be such a good compilation. Um, but no, I I I do have a story, and it's mostly it's it's not huge, it's just that I log online like most content strategists would, and I'm sure you've seen the same thing uh circulating. Again, this one does the rounds every year. I feel like it's, you know, almost um cycle-based, where it's this grab from, I don't know, like a C-suite someone at maybe Apple or Google, I can't quite remember. And he's talking about hire the divas, hire the divas because dot dot dot. Honestly, for the most part, I agree with that. I love a diva, but I love a professional diva. And I think people misunderstand what a diva actually is within the workplace. And it made me think about this particular podcast episode because I can wholeheartedly say that where a diva can sometimes land has been also the same place that's landed me, an autistic woman with a PDA profile, um, founding up this business here at the digital picnic in the worst possible spots. So I want to unpack, you know, parts of that in this episode today and have you really understanding what is actually the right person to have on your team versus someone or, you know, a particular situation that might drain you of all energy.

Steph

But anyone who hasn't seen that viral meme and they say hire the divas, like define diva. What what are they implying that is a good hire in a diva?

Cherie

Yeah, I think what they're referring to in this particular piece of content is hire the sometimes difficult people. And I agree. I completely agree with this. I love people who are willing to challenge me, who don't all they don't agree for the sake of agreement, you know, they definitely don't sit in artificial harmony. And then that's all of the, you know, professional stuff. But I think where people have landed with that viral piece of content is come into a workplace and be my problematic entire self and still expect to probably even retain my role. Absolutely not. You know, and so yeah, I I love a diva, but I really hope people are clear on what that actually freaking means, you know. So yeah, we're gonna unpack that today. I can think of, I don't know that she would call herself a diva. I think she would laugh, her eyes would roll to the back of her head if I was to even name her, so I won't. But there's one person on my team that I absolutely adore with my whole heart, and she is a professional diva. I love her for it. She has openly said to me many times, is this the standard you want to walk past, Shuri? And calls me in so courageously and says, You're walking past. This standard is not it. What are you gonna do? Because I can't. I'm not the founder. Yeah, you know, so that's on you. And then she calls me in, challenges me, disagrees, and yeah, shouldn't even really probably be giving that feedback as in I should be a better leader that I'm not walking past a particular low-ish standard or something to that effect, but I have, you know, um, and it's that professional diva who'll call me in and call me up. It's not just folk taking up pay run, it's your neurological real estate space, you know. So you've really got to think about that. And so I want that to be something that really people walk away from this episode saying, hey, this isn't just a particular number in the pay run. Do I actually want this in my neurological real estate space? Yeah. I was scrolling through Instagram, like I do, yeah, you know, and I guess my algorithm knows that I'm an employer, and it definitely, you know, spits out some content that I'm like, are you in my freaking brain? Yeah. So there's one particular Instagram carousel actually that I stumbled upon. I will include it in the show notes because it just really brought home the point that I'm trying to make in this podcast episode around, you know, honoring your energy. Um, not just for the neurodivergent founder, but I'm talking the folks within the middle management layer, which is the most exhausting. Spot you're managing down, up, sideways, yeah, within self, you know. I'll read from this carousel, but I'll absolutely put, or you will. I'm not doing any of the show notes, lol. Sorry. I'm like, what an egotist, you know, but um no, I don't know how to do that. Thanks, you're back, guys. Thanks. Um,

How work has changed

Cherie

so this particular carousel sort of introduced um the topic of, you know, like, hey, if you feel as though your team is becoming a little more fragile by the day, you're probably right. And then it went on to say, here's why. The workforce used to be full of robust people who didn't question the fundamental expectations of the job. Now, some people will hear this, especially employee side, and they're going to be like, this is giving Kim Kardashian, like, it's like people just don't want to work, you know, and maybe some of this will feel like it, but until you've, for me, um, as one example, until you've run a pay run that's more than $2 million, you just can't understand how important anti-fragile workforces are, you know, to be really honest. And so then it goes on to say, but now it's more likely that your average worker has an elevated sense of entitlement and a worrying lack of resilience. I would agree with some of that. I've experienced it personally. They then go on to say at the same time, conventional leadership wisdom is telling you to prioritize people's feelings over team performance. I agree with that. When I log into LinkedIn, I'm just feeling like I'm being fed all of the best that I'm meant to be as a leader. And hey, don't forget the feelings and don't forget X and Y and Z. And I'm like, yeah, but I I do that, but I've also got to think about team performance, you know. So then they go on to say, like, this leads you to navigate trauma, anxiety, and emotional overload, often with little support from above. And what I mean by that is we now regularly as leaders and for me org leaders, I cannot tell you how many people trauma dump on you and expect that you are not just founder and ex and y and z, but you're also unpaid therapist. It is absolutely exhausting and such an unrealistic take on what is acceptable and not acceptable within a workplace, and especially on someone's energy. I'm not qualified to be anyone's therapist within this workplace. I can be a really EQ rich human being, but I just can't tap into therapist, you know. It goes on to say that a lot more people are choosing to bring their whole selves to work, which forces you to deal with issues that are way beyond your job description and expertise. Yep. I could write the book, you know. Feel free to check it out in the show notes. Just know when you hit it, it wasn't me that put it there, it was our incredible step. Um, and it's a really good read and it's really interesting. And I'm good on the nuance piece. Like I could read through that and say there's parts of this that I agree with and others that I don't, but for the most part, it really did bring home how important it is to make sure that the people I have on my team aren't draining me of my literal will to live, you know. And the same goes for anyone in leadership roles or, you know, the list goes on. I really think about TDP's middle management layer because they are honestly copying so much of this. And you and I had some honest conversations before today kicked off. I've been in middle management before. I couldn't last more than two years in that role. I would need to move somewhere else at some point in time. So if you're listening and you're in the middle management level, look after your energy. If you can stick it out longer than two years, you are going to have to become such a boundaried human being. You're gonna have to have a healthy set of hobbies. You're going to just have to really focus on energy preservation because middle management just has this unbelievable ability to completely sap it, you know.

Steph

So I think, you know, hearing this from an employee side, yeah, we, you know, which it's been so great over the last, I don't know, five, ten, however many years that employees are asking so much more of their workplaces. Yeah. Which I think is a good idea. I agree. Yes.

Cherie

Yes.

Steph

But at the same time, then it can the scales tip into entitlement or asking a little bit too much. Like at the end of the day, your business is uh sorry, your workplace is where you go to do business.

Cherie

Yeah.

Steph

Then you have a personal life. And it's just the same as with anything in life. Not one thing can give you everything. Like your work can't be your sole sense of happiness, nor can your partner, nor could your parents or your kids. Like, you can't put all your eggs in your work basket and expect it to figure out your life for you.

Cherie

Yeah.

Steph

And I think that that maybe is a trap. The the more workplaces do accommodate, that then people get a little bit comfortable and go, oh, well, they can also help me with X and Y and Z.

Cherie

It's mind-blowing,

Entitlement Stories And PDA Limits

Cherie

Steph. Like, I've got a friend who put someone on a team, and actually their work from home schedule was spot on similar to ours. It was six days per month in office, the rest from home. And this person needed those six days in office for their role. They had to be able to do a particular role that did require those particular days in office. Um, and then they said, I once they came and saw and even maybe thought they conquered, they said, I can't do these six days in office anymore. I need to be completely work from home. Not possible for their role. So when the negotiations went back and forth and it got pretty aggressive from that team members, you know, from that side, um, they said, Well, if you want me here six days a month, you need to pay for my dog's doggy daycare because they have anxiety and you are contributing to my dog's anxiety. This is what I'm talking about. You were trying to figure out where this was going.

Steph

Yeah, wow. We got to doggy daycare, okay.

Cherie

We got to doggy daycare and that the dog's anxiety was the responsibility of the employer, the dogs who are not on the pay run. You know, so I know that's an extreme example, and my friend told me I nearly fell off my chair. Yeah. I just, but I also didn't because I just truly believed because I've had similar experiences myself, different animal, probably. Yeah. Um, you know, but I'm like, I can relate to that.

Steph

What about from your side of things? Like, was there ever a time where you've just thought, you know what, I've reached my my limit, my PDA limit. Yeah.

Cherie

The PDA limit is what I call it. So for those who don't know what PDA means, it's not public displays of affection for everyone. Um guys, I've thought that a lot when I first started at TDP. You poor thing. I can only imagine. I've been educated. You've been educated. Um, so yeah, look, in my land, in my world, PDA can mean for some pathological demand avoidance, or others like to call it persistent drive for autonomy. I don't give a fuck. It's one of the both. Like honestly, I am pathologically demand avoidant, but I'm also, I've got this persistent drive for autonomy. What that means is what others would consider to be like a non-demand, we would consider a pretty heavy demand. Doesn't mean we're a diva. Um it just means our nervous system is, you know, honestly built differently. And so there was a particular time once upon a time at the digital picnic where I, for the first time ever, and I've got oh, I have got so much patience. I can handle so much more than other people can handle in terms of I would even say really shitty behavior from people. I've just got this like, eh, bloody serious, like internally, but it's just, I don't know, I'm just able to not get flustered. There was once upon a time someone on the team who just pushed me to my freaking limit. And I remember saying out loud for the first time, I put my head in my hands and I just said, I just I can't do this anymore. I don't know how to help you. And I've never said that out loud. It was like the intrusive thoughts one. And I was so ashamed of myself for saying that out loud. They didn't feel good hearing that. I still feel really sorry that I said that out loud. I didn't mean to, it just literally came out of my mouth. And so they pushed me to my limit. Years and years later, after that, they apologized and said they took advantage of a radically accepting founder and an overly generous workplace. And I appreciated that apology so much. We're good now. We're mates. But I didn't, I still don't love that moment where I said, I just can't do this anymore. That's not what it should ever come out of a leader's mouth. That's when you know you've got folks on your team who are depleting you of so much that things are coming out of your mouth that you don't even recognize as being your own voice. I would never speak to someone like that. Yeah, and it wasn't mean, it was just I fucking exhausted. I literally said to them, and I don't even think I made eye contact, but hey, eye contact's overrated anyway. But I had my head in my hands and I was rubbing my temples, and I just said, I actually can't do this anymore. You know, because they had just been so for so long that I finally hit a limit and said, I can't help you. Daily shit fights, fighting with almost everyone on team about something different, taking everything personally. Um, everything was a personal attack, you know, um, needing me to walk them through each dysregulated feeling from beginning to end, each and every time. Do you really need to come to me every single time someone challenges or gives you constructive feedback or X or Y or Z because I don't have the time or the energy to do this, you know? So yeah, it was a lot.

Steph

I think everyone who is a business owner would probably relate to understanding how a misaligned hire messes with the orb chart. But today we're talking about the neurodivergent brain and the impact. So how does that impact a neurodivergent founder's

Stress Signals And Culture Drain

Steph

brain?

Cherie

Oh yeah, and look, hey, this one might not even be skewed to just neurodivergent brains, but I'm sure anyone can relate. But for me, um, it shows up physically, um, to be really honest. I have this thing, I don't know, this is so niche. People will, I don't even know that doctors would probably even know what I'm about to talk about here. It is so niche, but I have this thing um that I clocked in VCE. It's called nasal impedigo. It's so sexy. Okay. Right. So it's um the doctors are researching right now. So what is this thing? Um yeah, lucky me. And it's sort of, yeah, it sort of looks like a cold sore in the nose, right? Yeah, it's so painful and it gets really big and inflamed and awful. It usually for me it doesn't make its way out of the nostril. Like, how lucky are you to hear the insights of the insides of my literal nostrils?

Steph

Is this like a career highlight for you? When I said I'll start the podcast, this is not what I had in mind.

Cherie

Welcome to my nose.

Steph

She's like, right, cold sauce, nostrils.

Cherie

Yeah, so I get this, and it flares up with stress and stress only. So yeah, for me, that's the dead giveaway that something is yeah, kicking that off. So that's just one example. But something else I would say is the fatigue that doesn't feel normal and doesn't show up problematic in a blood profile. Like it's not your low iron, it's not, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but whatever shows up in those blood profiles to say, uh-oh, yeah, we need X or Y or Z. It's it's not that. You've got this level of fatigue that isn't medically problematic, but you are down to your freaking bones, exhausted. Yeah. Um, that's how it shows up for me. And then I've got this other one, Steph, where there's a level of grief that only the people who've led team can relate to. But I would say it's especially tricky when it's your business as well. You're running the pay run, and Steph, every year I think I can't believe I've pulled off another year of a two mil plus per annum pay run. Like that's not easy. And then there's these moments where there might be some people on my team who have been here for whatever period of time. It's usually that they've been here longer, to be really honest. They don't want to leave, but they have outgrown or whatever it is, right? And then they hit this resentment spot and they hate their job, but they don't want to leave the digital picnic. It is my biggest challenge as a founder. It has happened so many times, but I would say there's like four times that I can explicitly remember. So on one particular occasion, I'm in the car park after work and I had one of my famous car cries, Steph.

Steph

Now, for those who don't maybe know the TDP law here, yeah, those videos of you having a car cry, those three videos, and it's been, unfortunately, the reactions to team spaced out.

Cherie

Spaced out. It was over six years, so three car cries, six years. I've cried more, I just don't film it. Yeah, that's a bit weird. Yes, you know, um, but on these three occasions I filmed it for some weird reason. And there was one particular car cry that I had when I was at my wits' end with the person who was here, didn't want to be here, didn't want to leave as well. It's so confusing to me. It's like, what do you want me to do?

Steph

What do you want from me? Yeah.

Cherie

I'm just a girl standing in front of a person asking, you know. Um, and so yeah, I just thought, wow, I've hit the point where this is literally so devastating, I'm crying. Not normal for me. I actually don't cry very easily. And so I was crying the night before because I just thought the energy was so bad. It was so bad. And the impact of this very angry, resentful human was permeating across the culture that I'd worked so hard to build, and I just wanted to be goddamn good. You know, they were impacting everything, and they were so angry. So then I roll into work the next morning. First thing they say, hey Sheree, can I talk to you? And in my head, I'm like, please, I don't resign. Please. In my head, I'm just thinking, please, please, please, please, please. And we sit in this room and they say, I'm resigning. And I just thought, oh, thank fuck. Thank actual fuck. I love you as a professional. I've loved every year that we've worked together, but the minute you didn't want to be here and stayed here, you are making it so difficult, not just for me, but you know, everyone. And so, oh, I just have to try really hard in those moments to make sure I don't look very obviously relieved. Yes, because the truth is the relief is more than I'm just happy for someone I've cared about for, I don't know, four, five, however many years, right? Because I do, I care. And so they resigned. And you know what, Steph? The minute they resigned, there's a notice period, they worked it out. The second they resigned, everything was just back to good again. They just needed to freaking rip the band-aid off. Yeah. And I was like, I missed you. And we just we got to a good spot. And now we talk all the time on WhatsApp, and it's just sweet, it's perfect. But the drain of the energy when they sat here festering and so bloody angry at a workplace that had had their back and grown them and promoted them and provided multiple opportunities. I just thought, come on, do the right thing. Yeah. Not necessarily resign, but whatever it is, take on a new project, do whatever it is that you need to do, but just don't come in angry. Every damn day.

Steph

Okay,

The Can And Will Quadrants

Steph

what about a hire that protects the brain? What does that look like?

Cherie

Okay, I can only speak for me. My brain needs energy raise instead of energy drain.

Steph

Yes.

Cherie

Do you too? I was gonna say. Because you just answered in a way that I thought, are you the same? Yeah.

Steph

Oh my god. Yeah. I can't deal.

Cherie

I can't handle energy drainers, you know? Like, I just can't relate to people who, when you ask, hi, how's your day, and they're like, Life shit, everything's bad. And I'm like, there's gotta be something good in here.

Steph

Yeah.

Cherie

And I'm not this toxic, posy person, nothing like that. Totally. It's just like you can't see one good thing. And so within my workplace, and and for me as a founder, I'm mine is an interest-led brain. I'm really interested by energy raises. They keep me motivated, they they get me a little bit, well, they're happy and definitely high. They don't have to be energy raise all the time, and I'm not asking people to summon something from a place that might not necessarily exist. All I'm asking for is energy raise, even if it's not extroversion, it's not this huge, loud workplace personality. It's the people who sometimes, even if they're having a back-channeled conversation or catching a back-channeled conversation, they're like, Don't you think you should take this directly to the person that you're talking about? That's energy raise. Energy drain is saying, Yeah, let's let's talk about this person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Throw them under the, you know, whatever. So yeah, just I love energy rays. And what I will say is we've got four quadrants at the digital picnic, Steph, as you'd know, you know so well what this is. In the top two quadrants, it's either bright green or light green. In the bottom two, it's either bright red or light red. So let's start with the top, because that's what I do look for. And it's the people in the bright green, it's the people who can do the thing and will do the thing. They're your A players. Love that. Yeah. Okay. In the lighter shade of green, that's people who can't do it all, but they they are willing. So can't but will. So either can and will, a player, can't but will is someone who's got an A-player mindset. They're just lacking a few technical skills in whatever space.

Steph

A bit of training, a bit of education.

Cherie

100%. We love them both. I don't want too many bright greens because they're ready for a promotion and then they might get to the resentment town that we just named earlier. That's right.

Steph

You shouldn't sit in bright green for too long.

Cherie

Thank you. Yes, exactly. And if we can't grow, go somewhere else. And I will give you the best reference ever if you have the courage to do that. So there they are. Yay, we love that. What is drain is the either light red or start there. They can do the role, but they won't. They've become disengaged, they're lacking motivation. It's a nightmare, to be really honest. They need heavy coaching and it's training.

Steph

You know, they've got the technical skill, but just for whatever reason, mindset is telling them that they can't do something. They don't have to do that. 100%.

Cherie

Yep. And it's exhausting for the person leading that person or for me, the founder. I've had examples of people like this where they might be good for one week in a four-week um period. So for one week, we'll get the momentum. And every uh all the other three, like the three weeks within that month, it's just come on, come on, come on, come on, come on. It's like, yeah. And then in bright red, they can't do the role and they're also not willing. That's a need to exit. Yeah. You know, um, so we would be heavily performance managing that situation with the view to either coach them back to green, like light green or bright green, or exit out, uh, you know, whatever it might be. I hope it's green. I'm always, I'm always, I'm still an optimist. I really think that I can coach most people back to the green, but when you can't and you won't, uh-oh, you know, and it just has a really physical and mental impact on me as a founder. I can't stand it.

Steph

Okay. So what about when someone's experienced, they're talented, they're they're lovely, but they're still not a good fit.

Cherie

Yeah. This is on me. I take accountability there. There might be people who it's exactly as you said, the perfect candidate on paper, but not the right fit for me. And um, fortunately, if they don't match up with what I need as an autistic woman with a PDA profile, it's not gonna work. And I'm gonna tell you what that is, Steph. I cannot work with people who uh just need to fight for the sake of it all day, every day. Bulldos, bulldos, bulldos. Just you know those people who actually get a thrill from fighting. And I've worked with a couple of those people, thankfully, honestly, really not at the digital picnic. It's exhausting to be around them for me. I maybe other people cope with that. Maybe there are particular industries that really benefit from someone like that. It's not this industry. And I'm gonna say, for reasons related to neurodivergency, but also just in terms of you know, profiling from a leadership perspective, if anyone believes in disc profiling, I'm an I on the disc profiling situation, a hard I. There's no D, there's no S, there's no C. I am all I. So for those who are fluent in disc profiling, you'll know. Um, and even if you don't, I'm about to tell you, I cannot honestly handle being in conflict 24-7. I'm not built for it. Yeah. Um, I just I can do it. I'm a really good mediator. I've got strong EQ and I've got very like calm, regulated energy, but the impact that that has on me on an ongoing basis, I'll I'll grow an ulcer. Like I really would. Um, so I just honestly, I've once upon a time hired people on my team who've rolled in from week two and just spent the entire time in conflict with the entire team and blowing up in meetings. And I now know, you know, that's not going to make it past probation. It is an absolute disaster state for me to be working with people who want to be in conflict, you know, all the time. Like I've I've jokingly, and this is I guess not funny, and I'd never be able to do this really, but Dave and I have said, you know, that when when it gets really hard and there's people that are obsessed with fighting each other at, you know, um TDP, I just almost want to get an oversized t-shirt and do the mom and dad thing of this is your get along t-shirt. I'm gonna, if you have mom or fucking fight, I'm gonna put you in this t-shirt, and it's the get-along t-shirt, and you need to get along. Can't do that. I wish I could.

Steph

I was gonna say be funny.

Cherie

Yeah, but that's what I crave, and that's how I know if I'm craving putting people in a freaking oversized t-shirt, they're in conflict. This isn't cool. I'm not here to be an umpire and a referee. I'm here to be a creative and a strategist. And what drains my creativity and my strategy in seconds is dealing with people who are obsessed with being in conflict 24-7. But on the flip side, there are people who are the antidote to all that and the sum of everything that you didn't even know you needed until they entered your beautiful little world. For me, that would be, and there's many, but I'll just give one very obvious example. It's my EA Danny. She is everything my neurodivergent brain needs, and I'm so grateful for it. You know, she brings a three solutions to every problem, not just one. What in fact, I don't remember a time that she's brought a problem to me. You know, um, if it is, it's like, here's this problem, here's three solutions. Yeah. So she's thinking in mental load, which has a really positive impact on my executive functioning. Um, as a neurodivergent founder, I've got to protect protect that executive functioning um at all costs. And Danny is someone who never depletes from it. She doesn't get high from sitting in conflict all the time. She thinks in systems and processes, which again is exactly what I need. I'm, you know, uh again, let's move out of disc. Um, but keeping in mind, remembering I'm an I, we're more like the visionaries. We're not always like, I'm not gonna get high from um spending my time on operations Monday to Friday. Yeah. Um, you know, and so on. So that's not just that's not me, but it's certainly Danny. She loves it. So I don't want to go like this. Danny would hate every minute of this. So I'm gonna stop myself there, but I need to let you know that there are people that you can add to your team that are a whole load of at least 50 bullet points of everything you needed as a neurodivergent founder to raise your energy rather than drain it to the point where you're rocking nasal and pedigo in your right nostril.

Steph

What about for uh our founders that are listening to this? How do they know that they're making sure they're hiring people, not just based off what they think is compatible on the page, but actually what is going to be compatible with their brain?

Stop Getting Charmed In Hiring

Cherie

The only way I can answer this is with radical honesty. Um, so this is a really hard lesson that I learned in charm. Okay. So a founder and especially with an autistic brain, we take everything as gospel. I say what I mean and I mean what I say, so I assume everyone else does by default, not true. When you're in recruitment and you meet a charmer for the first time, and then you recruit that person onto team, you're about to learn a lesson in your right nostril about how much you just fucked up. You know, so um, yeah, look, I remember once upon a time I thought, what if I hired folks with like really heavy corporate backgrounds to an indie agency? I don't know. There's never been a time that it's worked, to be really honest, you know. So um don't get seduced by the CV, honestly, especially if that actually doesn't suit your workplace. So there'll be some people who've got these really big um companies on their resume. What if what's that gonna do for you?

Steph

Yeah, that's it.

Cherie

You know, especially for me and an NDA, indie-sized agency. What I've learned about those people is they would very quickly and easily find a way to turn Monday to Friday into um sitting in meetings about meetings, about meetings. Yes. Doesn't translate well to an indie agency. The team, they're like, yeah, we need doers. You know, so yeah, that doesn't work. They love hierarchy and heavy on the big org structure, and you know, just again, it's not that I'm completely anti-hierarchy. I do, we we need hierarchy here, but it's it's about as flat as we can possibly make it, I will say. They might have the impressive title, they might have the decades of experience and so on. Their answers in an interview are so polished, you think it's almost chat GPT. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, answering in real time. They've technically done the job, and none of that's irrelevant. Absolutely. I'm not discounting that, but capability on paper can become really dangerous when the founder just forgets to ask, and I've written this down because it's really important. Can this person actually thrive inside our pace, our standards, our communication style, our level of ambiguity, and our season of business and our culture? So that one's transformed everything to me, and I've been on an anti-charm war path in more recent times because I've realized that's my biggest vulnerability as an autistic founder in the hiring room. I do still fall for charm. Yep.

Steph

I love that. Love the awareness too. I think for people who are listening to this episode, they are going to love that, but they're also gonna love this next bit, which is the practical takeaway.

Cherie

Okay. I knew you were excited. I was, you I'm so excited.

Steph

All right. So someone who's listening to this and going, yep, all right, maybe I'm seeing some things I'm not loving in my team right now. How do they do an audit of their team?

Cherie

Yeah, okay. Well, you're learning this for the first time. And now I feel I feel slightly vulnerable sharing this because now you're gonna think, well, I've been here longer than a quarter.

Steph

So this is what I'm about to enter. Oh my goodness. Okay.

Cherie

Okay, so

Traffic Light Energy Audit

Cherie

on a quarterly basis. This is a one-on-one. Yep. I'll give you ratings. Okay, great. No, um, once per quarter, I run a energy audit. So once a year I run that same audit on myself, just as an individual, but every quarter I run that same audit on team. Wow the whole team. Oh my gosh. Yeah, love that. So it's like a bit of a it's energy, it's brain space, you know, it's like really speaking to that first point that we talked about when we kicked this off, that neurological real estate space. I have to, that's like that real estate space for me is like the homes, the the land at Sydney Harbour. I don't know, whatever rich suburb, is it Mosman? I don't know. I'm sorry, I'm so not Sydney.

Steph

Beyond me, yeah.

Cherie

Yeah, I don't understand. But whatever those rich people places are, this is um this is that. So I give it a traffic light system. I pick one person on my team, or honestly, I especially look at some of the roles that feel heavier than they should. Yep. And I ask myself, does this person reduce friction for me or create more of it? So then I give them a traffic light system. So let's go to the green. In the green section, this person gives me cognitive exale. This person helps me feel clearer, calmer, and more supported. Yeah. In the amber, this person is good, but expensive for my brain in certain ways. Sometimes I can't even name them. There might be friction there, but it should be fixable. So that's amber. And then in the red spot, this one's easier. This dynamic consistently leaves me foggy, dysregulated, avoidant, or overloaded, and sometimes even all of those things. Enter right nostril. What do you do with the traffic light system? If it's green, protect and reward it. If it's amber, diagnose the friction and address it quickly. I've moved people from amber to green, click of a finger. Yeah, yeah. If it's red, ask yourself, is this sustainable? Yep. So I honestly start measuring folks on my team by the friction that they actually remove within the workplace, not just the work they produce. If we just went on work they produce, that's falling into brilliant jerk land sometimes for some people. You don't want that as a founder. You definitely don't want that as a neurodivergent founder. Those brilliant jerks, it feels really jerky, not just for you, but the beautiful human beings on your team who deserve to be around people who aren't just the output but the amount of friction that they can remove, you know, as well.

Steph

So I love that traffic light system.

Cherie

So good.

Steph

I actually feel like um I know we're applying it to a business lens, but that reminds me of when with friendships sometimes. Yeah, so I knew you were gonna say friendship circle. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can walk away from a a night or something, and you think, hmm, maybe I've left feeling a little bit worse than I entered. That was weird. I shouldn't feel like that with a friend. And then maybe sometimes it's ambar, and then you've always got those mates that are like, we're just always green, we're just green, and we're good to go.

Cherie

So true.

Steph

So many applications of that, but yeah, we'll we'll keep it in the business uh realm for sure. Yes.

Cherie

Well, I mean, at the time of recording, you can only imagine you can work out the timing. I've just conducted that audit. We are mostly green.

Steph

Yeah.

Cherie

Yep. And I'm just having honest conversations in amber.

Steph

Yeah.

Cherie

You know, um, and it's good. We're good. Great. Yep.

Steph

All right. So, what about going back to an earlier version of yourself? Yeah. Anything that you would change with your hiring?

Cherie

Yeah.

Steph

Knowing what you know now.

Cherie

I would begin with, I wish I'd introduce the anti-charm system that I now have.

Steph

Yes.

Cherie

Um, so I've had to develop like a, oh, this isn't groundbreaking. Um, but it's a dashboard, it's a scorecard in the recruitment setting. And there are particular things that charmers do that are the dead giveaway. I know how to look for ego in an interview, and even if I don't, and for some unlucky, bloody reason, they land here, I've clocked it within a fortnight stuff. Two weeks. Yeah. They will never make it out of probation. Charmers, they don't work. If anyone doesn't, if you if you're thinking, why does she keep saying the word charm? Read up on how Patrick Lencioni describes charmers and their very negative impact on your workplace. So they can it, they're dangerous. Yeah, really dangerous. They delegate the bulk of their role to others within the workplace. They take credit for it, they're egotistical, and they don't work here. They hate this workplace. As soon as they arrive here, they're like, I hate this place. You know, um, it just doesn't work, you know. So yeah, I I guess if I could go back to those early days, I would have brought in this dashboard, this scorecard system much sooner. I know so much more now about looking for charm. The only other thing I'll add to that, Steph, I forgive myself for falling for a charmer now.

Steph

Yeah.

Cherie

I do not. I just I'm I used to beat myself up for every wrong high that I made. Yeah. Okay. And it's not that they're wrong people, it's hardly that. It's just I got it wrong, you know, and I used to beat myself up, and now I just say it's mathematical. I've made over a hundred hires now. I'm not gonna get every single one right. No, but I've got enough courage now to have very early on conversations, especially in charm or bulldozland. And I'm like, mm-mm, no. I especially I have a calendar invite with myself at month five for every person who's joined TDP. And I ask myself, how do you feel at month five? And how would you feel after probationary period ends? You know, yeah.

Steph

I feel like there's so many checkpoints people can pop in their calendars. Definitely if you're a business owner now. Set a date with yourself. Set a date for that five-month mark. That um was it once a quarter for the traffic light system?

Cherie

I mean, and given that that's once a quarter for the traffic light system, maybe you'd run that traffic light audit for a knee hire at two weeks, um, six weeks, you know, like you do you, you figure that out how you want to roll it. But that could be a really good sort of system. Just remember though, that some people are bringing friction into a workplace because they haven't got the systems to help them set to be set up for success. So just be really bloody honest with yourself and make sure that you're not the problem, you know, and that there aren't systems that aren't setting them up to succeed. If you feel good about all of that and it's still feeling friction-like, then you can have bigger conversations and and decisions with yourself. Yeah.

Steph

That's right. All right, to finish us off, yes, will we ever have the perfect team?

One In Five Rule

Cherie

No. No, there's no such thing. And what I learned recently from a woman called Shelly Johnson from Boldside, and it made me feel really good actually learning this, is for every five people you have on your team, you're gonna have one performance challenge. One in every five. Wow. So we're a team of 31. I actually, we are sitting well unders on that statistic. So even on some of my harder days, I'm like, yeah, but if I think about any performance challenges on team at the moment, it's well under one in five. Yeah. Well under. You know, so yeah, it's never gonna be perfect. You're never gonna have the perfect team. Most of us all will probably have one performance challenge in every five. So if you're gonna do this and if you're gonna just like if you want to work in a business that requires people to work in it and you're gonna scale team as a result of that, get around that statistic, hear it, ask yourself, how does that make me feel from an energy perspective? And have I got what it takes to pull that off? And if I don't, where can I upskill or do I even want to, or do I stay lone wolf slash solopreneur? These are the sort of questions you'd need to ask. Energy's important, yeah.

Steph

So important. And you've spoken about how energy is a KPI for you as well. So I feel like this is a perfect little. Yeah.

Cherie

It's not just a KPI. How do I get there? How do I hit it? Yeah. Traffic lights and nostrils, basically. Yeah.

Steph

Those are the key takeaways from today.

Cherie

Yeah.

Steph

Okay, thank you guys so much for joining us. We will see you again next week.

Cherie

Thanks for listening to the climb with Cherie Clonan and Steph Clifford. Here's to growth, grit, and bloody good stories. At TDP, we cover the full cost of any neurodivergent assessment for our team, and we've seen firsthand how powerful it can be when people have clearer language for how their brain works.

Steph

And that's why we love that at Graham Psychology they have no wait list for therapy or assessments because when you're ready for support, waiting months can be a huge barrier.

Cherie

They've got a large team with a diverse range of experience, multiple locations across Melbourne, and telehealth available for accessibility, convenience, or if you're interstate or overseas.

Steph

Plus, they have payment plans available and low-cost therapy appointments without needing a mental health care plan.

Cherie

And for the Climb listeners, they're offering an ongoing 20% off all appointment types, including therapy and assessments.

Steph

Just book directly through their website and pop the Climb podcast in the booking notes or call or email and mention the podcast, and their team will apply the discount.

Cherie

If therapy or assessment support has been on your list, head to the link in the show notes and book with Graham Psychology.