First Principles: How Africa Rebuilds Featuring Robert Kirubi

Guest: Robert Kirubi, Former DHL Vice President (EMEA & Global Programmes)

Most people who leave Africa for 40 years don't come back. Robert Karubi did - Robert Karubi spent 31 years building global supply chains at DHL. Then in December 2024, he came home to Kenya and discovered he didn't actually know what money was.

Robert explains why most Africans never learn what money fundamentally does, only how to earn, save, and invest it. He breaks down why your 8% savings account return is silently eroding your wealth, why Bitcoin isn't an investment (it's a store of value), and why boda boda riders in Kibera already understand something our central banks have forgotten.

But the deeper conversation is about systems. After 31 years watching global corporations navigate change, Robert identifies the real reason African digital transformation fails: governance structures can't adapt as fast as technology accelerates. It's not about importing Western solutions faster. It's about having the courage to build African ones.

This is an episode about rebuilding from first principles—both personal and systemic. It’s for anyone asking: What needs to actually change? What are we getting wrong? And who gets to decide what Africa becomes?

Key topics: Momentary systems, Bitcoin, Digital Transformation, Governance, Reverse Migration, Financial Sovereignty, Corporate Values, Systems Thinking

Credits
Host:

• Suban Nur

Producer:

• James Njoroge

Executive Producers:

• Harry Hare
• Agutu Dan

Transcript

Suban 0:00

Hi Robert.

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi Steven.

Suban 0:01

Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Suban 0:03

When systems break, is it usually the technology that isn't working? Is it the leadership?

SPEAKER_02 0:09

You missed out governance and that.

Suban 0:11

Can you explain Bitcoin to me?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

You're not studying from the future to fund the present. Sitting alone in my apartment. I ignored Bitcoin in 2013. I ignored it in 2017. Like everything starts with one person, um, and that one person gets to really understand it and then tells the next person next to them and like a network it spreads. Obviously, we born quite a few years ago. We're not going to go into the number of years there.

Suban 0:34

You were telling me that you went to visit Gibera the other day.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Taking some initiatives on different things as a community in terms of how they can better themselves economically all through our lives, school, university, wherever it might be, we learn about how to make money, how to save money, how to invest money. Never actually learn what is money.

Introduction

Suban 0:56

Hi Robert.

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SPEAKER_02 0:57

Hi, Suban.

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Suban 0:58

Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Thank you. Thanks for having

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SPEAKER_02 1:00

me.

Suban 1:00

Very welcome. Before we um get into systems and digital infrastructures, we want to know who Robert is. Who's Robert Karubi, the human

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Suban 1:09

being?

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Robert Karubi. Born quite a few years ago. We're

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SPEAKER_02 1:12

not going to go into the number of years there. No, we're not going to do that. Um,

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SPEAKER_02 1:16

went to nursery through to secondary in Kenya,

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SPEAKER_02 1:19

moved to the US for my university in Boston, at Northeastern University, uh back in uh 86. Um, graduated with a business and master's of business. Uh, and then lived in the US for 10 years. Uh, met my now ex-uh wife uh in Boston, had my firstborn, was born there in Boston, um, and then uh moved to Europe on the back of a job with uh a global corporation, um, where I stayed for 31 years working in Europe, based in Europe. Um, and uh yeah, I've just moved back to Nairobi, Kenya uh as of December last year, and I'm looking forward to this next phase of my uh of my life.

What is Bitcoin?

Suban 2:05

So you said um you are very active online, um especially on on X. And um I really want to dig into Bitcoin. For someone who doesn't understand what Bitcoin is, can you explain Bitcoin to me or to

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Suban 2:20

the viewers?

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Um

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SPEAKER_02 2:24

Bitcoin is it's just a technology that unlocks opportunities for people to um save their value, their time, and energy in a form that helps them grow.

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SPEAKER_02 2:41

Okay Grow in

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SPEAKER_02 2:47

You're not stealing from the present You're not stealing from the future to fund the present.

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Suban 2:54

I would like you to break

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Suban 2:55

that down for me.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Um it's a technology that allows you to save

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SPEAKER_02 3:03

your earnings in a better way, better form than we currently have today.

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Suban 3:08

Okay. But I so I currently save and I have a saving account. I go in, I put my money in my saving account. I can look at it every day. I know the interest, I know it's safe. Why would I

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Suban 3:25

why would I move from my traditional way of saving that I've been thought and based on to I think the the question comes down to understanding what money

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Suban 3:38

is all through our lives, school, university, wherever it might be, we learn about um

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Suban 3:44

how to make money,

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Suban 3:46

how to save money, how to invest money.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

We never actually learn what is money

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SPEAKER_02 3:53

and what is it supposed to actually do. Yeah. And in my eyes, so the three criteria's three criteria, there's about eight or nine of them,

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SPEAKER_02 4:05

but three, which everyone understands. Yeah. Unit of account. So this cup of coffee costs 25

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SPEAKER_02 4:10

shillings unit of account. If I want to buy this cup of coffee for 25 shillings, I need to give somebody uh notes that

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SPEAKER_02 4:18

say 25 shillings, medium of exchange. The one that we tend to walk past is that money is supposed

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SPEAKER_02 4:26

to be a store of value. Okay. So that 25 shillings today should buy you that same cup of coffee five years from now, two years from now. You know that, as well as anybody else knowing that you're gonna spend

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SPEAKER_02 4:40

35 shillings next year to buy the same

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SPEAKER_02 4:43

cup of coffee.

Suban 4:44

Cost of living goes up, too.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

But that's a function of money, store of

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SPEAKER_02 4:50

value. Bitcoin is what compounds your purchasing power over

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SPEAKER_02 4:56

time.

Suban 4:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

So when you're investing and you're getting your nice eight percent interest, is that eight percent interest keeping up with the debasement and the devaluation of your shilling? Okay. But we all get excited by the nominal increase. I put a hundred shillings and now it's a hundred and eight shillings, haven't I done

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SPEAKER_02 5:22

well? But that 108 shillings still wouldn't buy you that cup of coffee. You'll still need 110 shillings

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SPEAKER_02 5:30

to buy that cup of shilling. Bitcoin helps

Bitcoin Regulation

SPEAKER_02 5:34

you mitigate

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SPEAKER_02 5:35

that.

Suban 5:35

Okay. So is it regulated now? Bitcoin? How does the regulation of it

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Suban 5:42

work?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

How um regulation comes at the point of entry

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SPEAKER_02 5:47

and exit into the system. So exchanges or banks or whatever, wherever you're gonna go buy or exchange back into shillings, that's where the regulation happens. Um Bitcoin is just Bitcoin now.

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Suban 6:00

Okay. Um so there's a whole new bill of law that's just been passed in Kenya. VASP, virtual assets

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Suban 6:08

service providers.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

That's

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SPEAKER_02 6:10

what I mean by the entry and exit points.

Suban 6:12

So does that harm you, Bitcoiners? What does that do for Bitcoin is?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Does

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SPEAKER_02 6:18

it actually give clarity to people in terms of um it takes away the mystique of buying and selling Bitcoin? Yeah. Regulated providers who will exchange your Kenya shillings for Bitcoin, or exchange your Bitcoin for Kenya shillings. You now know that they're regulated. So there's clarity around that one, which is good for the industry. Um but that's it, yeah. That you're no longer working under the covers of darkness, or you're not uh being seen as uh uh anti-money laundering or whatever it might be. Bitcoin is Bitcoin, it's there. It's uh it's a neutral bearer asset. Anybody can access it, but now the points of accessing it are regulated, and that's clear, yeah? So that's

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SPEAKER_02 7:03

a good thing.

Suban 7:03

So do you think um we'll see a lot of companies that start putting bitcoins on the balance sheet in Kenya and Africa? Or is there something that the government is trying to kind of keep us away from?

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SPEAKER_02 7:14

I don't think they're trying to keep anybody away from it. Um I think just as you've asked me questions about well, what is it, et cetera, I think there's still a long way to go before companies feel comfortable

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SPEAKER_02 7:25

in Kenya. No, let me let me say that in Africa, feel

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SPEAKER_02 7:28

comfortable doing something like that until they actually understand what

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SPEAKER_02 7:32

the the thing is and how it can serve the purposes of their organization. Uh, but that'll come. Um if you look at there's since 24, 25, there's over 200, 250 global publicly listed corporations that have Bitcoin

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SPEAKER_02 7:50

on their balance sheets. It's all

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SPEAKER_02 7:53

in the US, but things always roll downhill from there. People start to take notice of that and start asking, or they should start asking the question, why? What what does this mean? Um, but those questions always

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SPEAKER_02 8:06

come. It's inevitable. Um and uh and hopefully uh corporations, SMEs in in Kenya will start to really start to figure out what is this thing and how can it really help us? Um

Bitcoin Usage in Kenya

SPEAKER_02 8:19

so we'll see.

Suban 8:19

Isn't that what they're doing in Kibera right now, the young people?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Are they paying and then purchasing

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SPEAKER_02 8:25

they're just using it as what

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SPEAKER_02 8:27

it's it's money? Uh so um they accept it as a merchant, you accept it and you keep your money in Bitcoin. Um and if you're a border border rider, you're earning in Bitcoin, and you use that bitcoin within the community to buy your milk, eggs, uh, whatever you're doing at lunchtime, uh, they use it across the

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SPEAKER_02 8:47

how big is the community in in Kenya? In terms of Bitcoin?

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SPEAKER_02 8:52

Bitcoin, yeah. Stereo, stereo. I don't know everybody. Yeah, but I think there's uh there's a growing community across the country. All

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SPEAKER_02 9:00

areas of the country.

Suban 9:01

And where are they getting this education from? Is it self-thought?

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Is it online or

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SPEAKER_02 9:07

uh like everything, it starts with one person. Um, and that one person gets to really understand it and then tells the next person next to them, and like

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SPEAKER_02 9:17

a network, it spreads.

COVID Rabbit Hole

Suban 9:18

How did it start

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Suban 9:19

for you?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Um COVID

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SPEAKER_02 9:22

lockdown.

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Suban 9:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Uh sitting alone in my apartment. Um I ignored Bitcoin in 2013, I ignored it in 2017,

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SPEAKER_02 9:31

um, but then 2020 came across, and all of a sudden everything was shut down, and I had nowhere else to go, and I wasn't busy on a plane flying, meeting customers, whatever

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SPEAKER_02 9:40

it was. I had time on my hands, and uh yeah, just something came across my timeline on X. I clicked on a link and I started

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SPEAKER_02 9:49

to read.

Suban 9:50

Was it going through a rabbit hole?

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SPEAKER_02 9:52

A complete rabbit hole.

Suban 9:53

Okay. Talk to me

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Suban 9:55

about that.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Well, the rabbit hole is um learning how things actually work. Again, what is money?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

And yeah, what is money and how's it supposed to be? And then you understand, you go down the rabbit of well, how does a current system work? How does current fiat system work? And why does it work this way? And what are the issues or good things, and there are good things about fiat. Um, what are those things? But you really have to start at what is money? And then you start to see everything else from that

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SPEAKER_02 10:30

perspective.

Suban 10:30

How long did it take you to

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Suban 10:32

get there?

SPEAKER_02 10:32

I'm

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SPEAKER_02 10:33

still going through it.

Suban 10:33

You're still going through it? Is it easier

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Suban 10:36

now?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Do you Yeah, it's easier now.

Suban 10:38

So what do people around you think? Friends, family. Um,

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Suban 10:47

no, no.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

I mean, a lot of people get

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SPEAKER_02 10:49

what I'm saying. Yeah. A lot of people don't

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SPEAKER_02 10:52

get what I'm saying. People don't have the time and luxury that I had in lockdown,

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SPEAKER_02 10:59

maybe now. Um they're busy.

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Suban 11:04

It can't just be

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Suban 11:05

busyness.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

They're busy.

Suban 11:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Um I suddenly like I said, I ignored

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SPEAKER_02 11:09

it twice. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was busy. I knew about it, but I just, you know, people are busy. And I understand that going reflecting on my journey, I know what it means. If you go down that rabbit hole, you spend your time in that rabbit hole. And people need to make that decision consciously that I'm going to spend time in this because I can see what this is. I can I want to I want to learn what this is. And that's a step that uh many people come to in their own way. Now, my view is over the next five years with Bitcoin, everybody will everybody will be f I don't want to say forced, will be forced to really understand what is this, because it's what two trillion dollar

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SPEAKER_02 11:59

market cap right now.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Over the next five years, that market cap's gonna it'll be a major part of the global economy, and people have to engage with it and understand what is this and how do we

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SPEAKER_02 12:10

use it.

Suban 12:10

I um I was reading the other day, um, I can't remember what year it was, but there was a time that it completely crashed.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Or it's

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SPEAKER_02 12:18

Bitcoin's crashed several times.

Suban 12:20

So so let's let's talk about that because if I'm investing my money, right, as a as a normal fiat loving or traditional money saver, when I see that, I panic.

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SPEAKER_02 12:35

And that's a natural reaction.

Suban 12:37

It's like, oh my god, my money, it's gone. So how how do you tell the young people that want to invest in that that it is valued highly? It goes up and down. But you need to.

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SPEAKER_02 12:50

So the lens you've just used, and Bitcoin's over 17 years now, 17 years old now. Uh over that period of time, Bitcoin has crashed 60, 70, 80 percent more than once. And here we are.

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Suban 13:04

Where when was the time that you were

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Suban 13:06

really scared and it crashed?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

I'm scared. I thought once you understand it, it's not an investment.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah.

unknown 13:13

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

And

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SPEAKER_02 13:15

again, the point about it is to store my time, energy, and value in something that I know will compound my purchasing power capability going forward. So despite all those crashes.

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Suban 13:28

Okay. I think I'll start reading up

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Suban 13:31

on it.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

It's price

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SPEAKER_02 13:32

discovery. Yeah. And it's a natural thing. It's completely it's probably the only free market that there is

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SPEAKER_02 13:38

out there. It is still being measured in dollars

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SPEAKER_02 13:42

or can it shillings or euros or whatever it might be. Um and P and it's the most liquid asset out there. Tradable, tradable, 24-7, 365. Yeah. So people do put money in because they want to see their shilling go from 100 to

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SPEAKER_02 13:59

500. Yeah. But the moment something goes wrong, I'm gonna pull my money out. And it's easy to do that. It's not a stockbroker

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SPEAKER_02 14:06

who's open at 9 to 430.

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SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah. I can do that at any time. So those things will happen. Uh the world's gonna we're gonna have World War III. Let me get my money out. Boom. It'll do this measured in dollars

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SPEAKER_02 14:20

or shillings. Yeah. So it's it's just the most liquid thing that you can, and it's easy for things to to move up and down like that. Um But you need to go beyond that layer of the onion to understand that those are those are opportunities to exchange

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SPEAKER_02 14:37

more money into Bitcoin. And that'd be but but but to be fair, don't put money in there that you're gonna

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SPEAKER_02 14:44

need to pay rent next month.

Suban 14:45

Okay. So

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Suban 14:46

it's money that you just have to forget about it, keep it in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

You don't buy a house to sell it next month.

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Suban 14:52

Well, I've seen I've seen people who've very fine. But nothing.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Was it in New Zealand or something like that? Um it's something you and uh you put something, you buy a house because you want it to be there

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SPEAKER_02 15:04

for your children and everything else. And you know, based on the way things work today, it's a hard asset and it's gonna increase in value

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SPEAKER_02 15:14

over time.

Suban 15:14

Or it can come down.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

In Kenya? Would you say that in Kenya? Would you say that's pretty good?

Suban 15:22

No, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. No.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

No. So the next step is that nominal increase in value of your house

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SPEAKER_02 15:30

over time, what has Bitcoin done against that? And what's the purchasing power of that, whatever the increase is,

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SPEAKER_02 15:37

now versus whenever you bought the house?

Suban 15:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

That is the point

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SPEAKER_02 15:43

of understanding.

Suban 15:44

You're you're sending me in a rabbit hole. I will

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Suban 15:46

I will start reading off on this. Um

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Suban 15:48

You were telling me that you went to visit Kibera the

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Suban 15:51

other day.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yes.

Suban 15:52

Can you tell us a bit more about what you went

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Suban 15:55

to do there?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Um it's a community that I've been involved with online, primarily, because I was living in Europe, obviously. Um they're taking some initiatives on different things as a community in terms of how they can better themselves economically. Um yes, Impest is there and everything else, but they're still locked out of a lot of aspects of society. Um so I've been talking to people there for a lot for quite a while now. It was an opportunity for me to get to meet people face to face and for them to meet me face to face. They just see my name online or on emails, whatever it might be. But who is, as you asked, who is Robert? So I took the opportunity to go and meet with

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SPEAKER_02 16:38

people.

Suban 16:38

Okay. So you moved to Europe, join a global corporation. Can you tell us which one?

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SPEAKER_02 16:46

Uh DHL.

unknown 16:48

DHL. Okay.

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Suban 16:49

Tell us a bit about your journey with DHL.

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SPEAKER_02 16:52

Um, where do you start? Uh at the time when I first moved from the States to Europe with DHL, when they gave me the opportunity, I looked at it as a chance to move

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SPEAKER_02 17:03

back home to Kenya back then.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I joined them. I hadn't worked in a corporation before. I was doing lots of different jobs in the US at the time, just odds and ends. Um, but I moved to Europe, joined the organization uh just as a business analyst working for some of the commercial

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SPEAKER_02 17:22

people. And I found an organization that from a social perspective, from a human perspective, fit my values and everything else. Um I thought I'd get home in about a year's time. I can move from I can move back to Kenya after about a year and that would be okay. Yeah, I managed that 31

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SPEAKER_02 17:43

years later.

Suban 17:45

Okay. Um so when you say social values, I I want to get into that bit more in details.

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SPEAKER_02 17:54

Um life is about people. Um, and if you're happy around the people that are around you, um you're all sort of trying to achieve the same goals and objectives, uh, and you're approaching them in the same way in terms of how you engage with each other and uh and work with each other. I think that's important. Um, as opposed to being selfish, focusing on yourself and doing whatever it is that you

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SPEAKER_02 18:23

can to get ahead at the expense of the people around you. That wasn't DHL.

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SPEAKER_00 18:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah. So I just found a natural fit for myself and how I am as a person. Um, and I was given I got opportunities. They weren't handed to me. I had to work for them. But once you were given the opportunity and you continue to work well, you

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SPEAKER_02 18:41

got more opportunities. And it went from there.

Suban 18:43

How was it a young Kenyan coming into this global corporation? How is how did you perceive that and how did people perceive you? And how did the opportunities, how did the doors open for you on that?

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SPEAKER_02 18:57

Um yeah, that's maybe a question to ask the people that were around

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SPEAKER_02 19:02

me at the time that could give me those answers. But uh, I honestly don't know. Um I've been able uh through my life, just being able to grow and adapt in different environments,

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SPEAKER_02 19:15

not just I'm not sure how to put this, just not just being a Kenyan in a Kenyan environment. I've been exposed to lots of different environments and people and cultures um throughout my entire life. Uh and there have been lots of knocks and bruises,

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SPEAKER_02 19:31

ups and downs through that process. So by the time I got to DHL, um, it was just part of how I the environment I've just learned how to adapt to those situations. Um so if you go into something and you don't focus on being different or you don't focus on things are different here, you

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SPEAKER_02 19:53

just are and you just be a person. I think people take note of that. Of course, doing good work around that as well. Um yeah.

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Suban 20:02

But what is good work? That's what I'm trying to get into.

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Suban 20:06

Especially for a young African who goes after Europe right now, who wants to set up their life. It's it's different cultures, it's different behaviors, it's different systems and social structures that work.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

So what

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SPEAKER_02 20:20

always be open. And that means be open to learning, always be learning. I'm still learning today, uh, but always be willing to learn, always be willing to

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SPEAKER_02 20:30

ask questions, uh, but also be open to teach people about who you are, where you're from, in your culture

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SPEAKER_02 20:37

as well. People curious, and and some of the issues we have across the world of different peoples is that people don't know. So they react

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SPEAKER_02 20:48

from a certain perspective. Um always and they don't ask, so be willing to be open and teach, be vulnerable. Difficult thing to do, but be vulnerable and teach people and

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SPEAKER_02 21:00

talk. Um, but then do the work as well. Whatever that work is, wherever whatever environment you're in,

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SPEAKER_02 21:07

yeah, try to do the best you can every day. If you leave, if it's an office environment, for example, you go home, reflect on what you did that day. Did you achieve what you wanted to achieve for that day? Uh did you help other people around you? Um, and did you talk to the higher-ups, whoever they may be, expose yourself to them. Let them know you're there. They're just people at the end of the day trying to do stuff

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SPEAKER_02 21:29

as well. Yeah, they just have to have a certain title and certain pay grade. But at the end of the day, they're

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SPEAKER_02 21:34

just people. Don't be afraid to talk to people, no

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SPEAKER_02 21:37

matter who they are.

Systems and Governance

Suban 21:38

So global so DHL, big global corporation. Where do you think we're we're going wrong in can in Africa when it comes to our corporate world, our state owned private entities? Is it systems? Is it the way we educate our young people? Where are we getting it wrong?

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SPEAKER_02 22:00

It's a difficult question to ask. Where are we going wrong? I don't know if it's right for me to say we're going wrong or right, but I think working in any environment, corporations, state, organizations, whatever it might be, again, it's about what are we trying to achieve?

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SPEAKER_02 22:19

And is it a solo or a silo objective versus the entire global topic? And as long as people focus on the individual perspective and not trying to help others achieve the global objective, those handoffs between functions, silos, whatever it might be, that's where problems are caused

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SPEAKER_02 22:42

and execution of what the global objective

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SPEAKER_02 22:46

is.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So and it's not just Kenya or Africa. I mean, that happens everywhere in the

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SPEAKER_02 22:51

world.

Suban 22:51

Okay. So Africa is moving very fast digitally. We're expanding our digital infrastructure is expanding. What excites you about the future of Africa, especially digitally, where we're

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Suban 23:06

going?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Digitally. And yeah, we go back to MPESA and what that unlocked

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SPEAKER_02 23:12

for Kenya, the economy, and for a lot of people across the country. It's exciting because it opens up a lot of new opportunities

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SPEAKER_02 23:22

for us. And from that perspective, I'm excited. It connects a lot of different things and people, and we plug into the global network as well, not just from an Africa perspective, from a Kenry

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SPEAKER_02 23:35

perspective. So that's exciting.

Suban 23:38

Okay. Anything else that's exciting?

SPEAKER_02 23:42

We've got tools now that we can use that can really unlock a lot more

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SPEAKER_02 23:47

for the country.

Suban 23:48

So you've pro you've seen systems work, fail, leadership, being blamed on systems not working. From your perspective, having worked for DHL for over 30

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Suban 23:58

years, when systems break, is it usually the technology that isn't working? Is it the leadership or is it the culture? What where where do you think it goes wrong?

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SPEAKER_02 24:11

You missed

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SPEAKER_02 24:12

out governance and governance.

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SPEAKER_02 24:14

Um I think so just to go back to your question about the digital future and everything else, it's moving really fast. And it's that speed is compounding.

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SPEAKER_02 24:24

Yeah. Yeah. And it's gonna get even more now with AI and everything else.

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SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

If we don't get the governance systems right

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SPEAKER_02 24:30

and adapt those at the same pace, then that is the is the issue. That happens at corporations, it happened

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SPEAKER_02 24:39

at DHL. Um, you get very locked into this is how we've historically been set up,

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SPEAKER_02 24:45

yeah. And everything will be round peg into this square hole. And that's where the issues come. You need to adapt your governance structures and processes to this new environment. If you don't do that, then

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SPEAKER_02 24:59

you're always playing catch-up. It comes down to the policymakers. You're you're you're always playing

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SPEAKER_02 25:03

catch-up. Yeah. And things break and people get harmed in that process.

Conclusion

Suban 25:07

Okay.

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Suban 25:08

Um now that you're back home, Robert, what's next? What do you what are you going to

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Suban 25:13

do?

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Suban 25:14

How long

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Suban 25:15

have you been back?

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Since December.

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SPEAKER_02 25:17

Okay. So not long.

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SPEAKER_02 25:18

December is for I've been away

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SPEAKER_02 25:20

for 40 years. Um I'm taking it one day at a time at the moment. No rush to jump into anything at

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SPEAKER_02 25:26

this moment.

Suban 25:27

What's changed in 40 years? Your friends, you've come back and seen people. Do you feel like you it was easy for you to walk back into the people that you knew, or is

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Suban 25:38

it completely rediscovering who they are and vice versa?

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SPEAKER_02 25:44

Um this is just maybe a function of me

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SPEAKER_02 25:49

as a person, but I still have a really good friend who's now pilot for Emirates.

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SPEAKER_02 25:53

Okay. Um but I met him at nursery

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SPEAKER_02 25:56

school.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

I'm still friends today. I have friends from St. Mary's, I have friends from Hillcrests,

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SPEAKER_02 26:02

um, and they're still they've been friends all this time. And when I see them, it's like we met each other yesterday, and we're just having a conversation and continuing

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SPEAKER_02 26:11

from that point onwards. Um, I have a group of friends coming out from Europe uh in March. We're gonna have uh a week together, and it's like we we haven't seen each other since Hillcrest secondary school, uh, but we'll be together and it'll be like

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SPEAKER_02 26:26

nothing's changed. Nothing's changed. So that's that's me. And you have the wider circle of people that, yeah, I come home on holidays, two weeks at a time, three weeks at a time. We get together, we go to Mombasa, we do our thing on New Year's and all the rest of it. Um yeah, it's yeah, it's gonna be uh interesting. It's they're busy, they're working, their kids are at school, um, and I'm not working.

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SPEAKER_02 26:52

So there's a difference in terms of how the engagement happens. And I and I acknowledge that. Um so yeah, it we'll we'll I'll find my balance and I'll see what happens.

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Suban 27:02

Talk me through your day. So you wake up, you go for

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Suban 27:05

a walk, you read a book.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

And I have breakfast.

Suban 27:07

Um you go on X,

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Suban 27:09

look at how much money you've made on Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

No, uh it's it depends.

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SPEAKER_02 27:16

Uh you know, like I'll I spent the day in Kibera, I spent time with the Bitcoin community in Kenya, uh getting to meet people that I've

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SPEAKER_02 27:23

known online versus in real time, in real face-to-face. Um

WAV_The_Hip-Hop_Podcast_Intro - Part_1

SPEAKER_02 27:28

yeah, I'm just taking

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SPEAKER_02 27:29

it a day to time. Uh I've got a new apartment, I've got to furnish it, I've got to sort of I've had to deal with the banks, I've got to figure out how to pay all the you know, all the usual stuff. Exactly, all that's good stuff.

Suban 27:42

Must be very refreshing and freeing waking up and just seeing where life takes you that day.

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SPEAKER_02 27:50

That's that's why that's why I left corporate life.

Suban 27:53

Yeah. I um I I can't imagine having to wake

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Suban 27:58

up and and not knowing because I'm so programmed to have this structure. How long did it take you to make this um the

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Suban 28:08

switch?

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Like two or three years for me to really think this through. Okay.

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Suban 28:12

What was the main reason for you wanting to come back and be like I'm

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Suban 28:18

um I think COVID lockdown has a lot to do

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Suban 28:22

with it?

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SPEAKER_02 28:24

Yeah.

Suban 28:24

Okay.

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Suban 28:25

Thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you.