David H - Projection

In this episode, I’m joined by David Hackett.

It’s a fascinating conversation because while David speaks openly about control, codependency, loneliness, and emotional pressure inside his previous marriage, there are still moments where you can hear how easy it is for all of us to stay focused on what the other person did.

Not from malice. Not from manipulation. Just from being human.

That’s what made this conversation interesting to me. Listening to someone genuinely trying to make sense of their life while still unconsciously sitting inside parts of the same patterns most of us do. The need to explain. The need to justify. The need to make sense of pain by locating the cause outside ourselves.

And to be fair, some of what he describes sounds genuinely difficult. There are clear elements of emotional control, anxiety, pressure, and losing yourself inside a relationship dynamic. But what fascinated me was hearing how awareness starts to form in real time. You can almost hear someone halfway between blame and accountability.

That space is uncomfortable as fuck.

Because once we stop seeing ourselves as completely innocent, we also have to start asking harder questions. Why did I stay? Why did I ignore myself? What part of me accepted that dynamic? That is where the real work starts.

This conversation with David, shows the human condition of relationships, without blaming or defending his ex wife. It is about showing how messy relationships actually are when two people collide.

And now another layer has opened up.

David’s ex wife has reached out and wants to tell her side of the story.

It’s You. Oh Fuck. It’s ME. In Session with a Psychotherapist
Hosted by Chad Taylor. Author of It’s You. Oh Fuck. It’s ME

No tips.
No fixing.
Just real conversations.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm Chad Taylor, psychotherapist, author of It's You, Oh Fuck It's Me. No tips, no fixing, just real conversations. And today I've got David with me. And this is gonna be a bit different. It's gonna be a collab show. So I don't know how this is gonna go for all of us, but we're gonna give it a go. So it's David, who the fuck are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hi Chad. Um yeah, basically in a nutshell, I'm David, I'm 42. People might recognise my accent as being a British accent, but I'm residing in America, haven't been in America for eight years. And why the fuck am I in America? That's what we get into in a minute. That's what I'm saying for now.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

But tell us a bit, you you're single, married?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I'm engaged to my partner, um my partner I met after my first marriage, and this is where why the fuck I am in I'm I don't mind spreading it. I know your podcast has got the pod, you know, spread expletive into it, so I don't mind saying it, but I got married eight years ago. And I thought I found the person I loved I truly loved. And she promised me everything. She said, you know, I'm in a relationship with you, even though she was in America, this former partner, and I'm not gonna judge her in any way, but there is reasons I will go into how she is, and I will say it in the way I feel comfortable. But she promised me everything. She said, You'd be loved, you'd be safe, you'd be feeling secure, you will have a new start, you'd be this, you'd be that, and from the get-go, she said on my status on Facebook, we're married, even though we wasn't married, she put herself as married to me, she put us living with me in England, even though she was in America. And then it came to the crux of we have to meet, because obviously when you meet someone online, it's natural it in a logic sense to meet up because you want to see if the person's real.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

And especially if you're married to them right.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

And I prophetically married at the time, and yeah. And so I said, okay. So I started saving some money together because it's not exactly a cheap flight from England to America, like it's not cheap from England to Australia, or even America to Australia, it's never a cheap flight, and I put a lot of money back, and I met her a year later, it was about a year later, and it came to it and she said, you know, we should be together. So yeah, and stupidly, and this is a big jump in now, it was, she said, let's get married. And I said, Okay. Which at the time I was all loved up, you know, I was excited. And she said, Let's get married on my birthday, or her birthday. And I said, Okay, thought nothing of it. Now there was loads of red flags, and I know your podcast talked about, you know, about psychological, you know, issues and about personal recovery, you know, intimacy issues, anxiety, addiction, you know. There was a lot of anxiety within me because people were telling me you jumped too quickly, you shouldn't have got married, she's got control over you. And personally she did. Even when I was in England, I was always on the phone to her, you know, from the moment I got up to the time I went to bed. Five hours differently.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

What do you think was driving that? What was driving that need to be in contact with her all the time?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

She just wanted to be, as she worded it, part of my life.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

What about for your end though? What was it for you that wanted to be on that call?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Just to keep her happy.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

She had meant to I'm It was all about her, it wasn't about you?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

No. I realized when people started telling me the warning signs, it was like it's not about me, it's about what she wants, and I was being the people pleaser by making her feel validated, and in a sense, there was that kind of love which I was being shown, but at the same time, when people were trying to tell me red flags, I was ignoring it because I was like, I'm happy, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

And as we do, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, and and people were like, and it goes back to the title of what it says on the gap on the podcast title. Oh fuck. People were like, fuck David, you got listen to us, we're telling you because we care. And you know, I had a stable uh house to live in when I was living in England. I had a stable position in what I was doing, I was part of a community radio station in England, which I'm still passionate about, very close to me, and I always rule out that community radio station close to me because it's part of who it's made me today, because it's made me a stronger person. But the fact was she wanted to be part of it. She wanted me to be on the phone. When I was doing my work fair, I was distracted because she was always on the phone. I couldn't be David the David they wanted me to be because I was always on the phone, distracted.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Did it serve a purpose for you? Were you enjoying the phone calls, or you felt like you just had to have them?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I felt like I had to have them admitted. I really do admit that. And I felt like if I didn't answer it, and I have had done that, I felt bad because she made me feel bad. She had bi um like I said, I'm not judging her anyway. She had mental health issues, she has bipolar.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Which Yeah, we all have a degree of mental health issues. Even that same, she made me feel like I think sometimes that personal responsibility too, that we feel a certain way when people do things, like the feelings happening inside of us.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, and she made me feel bad a lot of the time. Like I said, last last few times before I left the radio station to come to America, I chose to turn that phone off because also she was monitoring where I was all the time, just for uh reasoning to know where I was. And on my leaving day, where I had a party phone by a couple of former work colleagues, I turned my phone off. She knew I was going out. I told her, I said, they've invited me, and she's like, No, not you're not going out. I said, I am, I'm going regardless. And she said, No, not.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

But the moment I turned out Yeah, and there was probably a need, probably a need from her to be connected to you, right? Like at that time. I think we do what we do at the time. Like looking back on that, do you think that it was manipulative or do you think she was unconscious to what she was doing and she just wanted to be close to you?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

She wanted to be manipulative in a lot of ways. She wanted that control over me. And when I came to America, first of all, where in the state I was at the time, I was with for five years. Obviously, during that five years, COVID came along. I was expected to have a job, which don't get me wrong, I appreciated the fact that I was able to have a job in America because, you know, it was a new start for me. I was right about doing that job. But it was a job that was, and this is where my partner talks to me about things now. You know, my new partner, she says, it felt like you were obliged to do what she wanted you to do. What she wanted me to do was being in a safe job that I, you know, was comfort, what you're used to, not completely what I was used to, because I couldn't do radio station work. I had to be a custodian in a hospital. And obviously COVID was around at the time. You know, so I was working in uh I stressful situation which was potentially life-threatening. Because imagine if I caught which I did catch COVID, but imagine if I caught COVID and I was very ill from it. I was blessed in the fact that I had the not so aggressive of it, but I had it.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

And I usually do something on my show where the last guest leaves something for the next guest. And what was left was pretty relevant to what we're talking about here is they had left a question, which was if there's one thing you could have done differently in your life, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Bluntly, truthfully, not get married to her.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Even looking at yourself in America now with your new partner?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Like you're not thinking I'm in I'm in a new state. I've progressed further, I've been with who I'm with now for three years this year, and I'm in a stable place. Yes, I've changed jobs now, which is in a sense gone from what I was doing, cleaning, to stacking shelves. But stacking shelves in a supermarket is better than having no job and being reliant on other people. Yes, I lean on my partner, she's my support, she's my rock, she's my everything, and I will always praise her up. And you know, in the podcast previous on my side of the podcast, I've always said to people when people ask, I always praise her up because this partner I'm with now, I'm proud of her, and she's proud of me, and we're proud of each other for doing what we do together and not apart.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Exciting. It's great to hear that. How do you think you went from what do you think's different in this relationship to the last one for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Understanding, compassion. More I'm here, David, I'm present, I'm listening. Even though I got my and you say everyone's got mental health issues, even though I got my mental health issues, and I've been diagnosed in recent months of with, you know, PTSD because of past traumas, she's there, she's present, I'm present, she's present, we together we're present.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Do you also have a therapist or do you rely on her a lot?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

I rely on her a lot because in America, I don't know how well you know about the American health system. In England it's okay because you've got the National Health Service, which is free healthcare, but in America you've got to have a job that will provide health care. Because if you don't have health care, you end up being thousands of dollars in debt. So the only way to survive properly and have proper help is if you get a full-time job. Now, my job, what I do now, is part-time. When I was working in the hospital, this full-time and I had all the benefits, but I always look at it. I'm helping myself because I'm able to talk about it now. I'm able to say I've come out the other side and said, fuck, I've done it. But because of my mental health, I'm always in a dark place still because I'm always thinking the worst, thinking the worst.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

And what's the basis of your podcast for people out there listening? Tell us a bit about your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And this is for the listeners who know me as well. Podcast I present is called For Journey. Well, at the time I used to say Sharewise wrote the two. It was just a passion because of my radio work. I wanted to do something that would benefit people. And uh in the beginning, I interviewed a couple of British celebrities, which got me excited because, you know, I never expected them to say yes. And then I interviewed the bucket list guy, I believe he's from Australia as well. And I interviewed him, and then I started exploring people's journeys, and I started exploring the life behind the microphone, the life behind the camera. And I thought, if one has a journey in life, I've come on a journey. And they should come back.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Life is a journey, right? Yeah, it is. It's not the destination.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, and you know, as well, when you're on a journey, when is that journey ever as straightforward? It never is. You know, I made pretty much little fuck-ups in my life, I admit that. But it wouldn't be a journey if I didn't have those fuck-ups.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

And that's why I asked you before, you know, you're in America now, right? And you've got an amazing partner. How have you not taken that journey with the other partner? I think some sometimes life's like a choose your own adventure book. Yeah. We make a choice, and it's there's many different endings in the end of a choose your own adventure book.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

And our journey's still always ongoing. We're always doing something new. That's the exciting thing for us. Our journey's still ongoing. It's not it's not stopped. If it stopped.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Like the people on my podcast, where can they find you? Where can they find David? Where can they find the journey?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

They can find the journey by searching for journey. David Hackett spout H-A-C-K-E-T-T on most audio platforms like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the trying to think what else. You and then those are two examples of where. And then you can Amazon Music. And then if you want to watch the visual, which this one is being recorded visual and will be visual and audio, they can find me on YouTube, youtube.com forward slash at wisewords 1983.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

So visual, audio, and my ethos now behind the podcast is to amuse, educate, which you educated me because you're talking about you as a person, even though you've been asking me the questions. We've been inspired because we've you know, you're in Australia, you're pretty much as the people would say, in the future.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

I am, I'm coming to you from the future, David. It looks pretty bright.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, only how many hours I forget, because that's the thing. Australian time difference compared to what I'm used to is like America. I'm used to saying five hours for British time, which is at the moment four hours because yeah, it is. Yeah, four hours because clocks went forward. This Sunday just gone. But you're like 13 and a half hours, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, we're about half a day in the future. It looks bright for people out there, there's hope. Just hang in there and enjoy the ride.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

It is, and then it goes into inspire, and we're observing that every day. And you even said it yourself, every day is a brighter day. You know, no matter how passionate or how dark it is, it's about observing what's out there and observing what's new, and then it goes into the you understanding, understanding what's around you, and not just thinking it's a one-track vision where you've got the blinders on all the time, and you're like, huh? Because there is life around those blinders.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

There's a lot of life around those blinders. So, what for you stood out from my book? Do you think? What sort of content from my book stood out for you?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Honestly, you talked, I briefly mentioned it about you said working with individuals and couples, but navigating it, and this is me reading your notes. Anxiety, intimacy issues, and long-standing relational patterns. Those little things stand out for me because I know from experience, and like I said, I'm not saying everything's 100% because life is never 100%. But when you read things like anxiety, that's a common thing. When you're in a relationship, yes, you will have intimacy issues, but it's about understanding. And from my perspective, I know I'm still trying to learn about myself. So that's what I picked up from your book because I read your book. You sent me the copy via email just to read, and I read through it, and it's like it does make sense what you're saying, and it's good, and I make sure people will get the if it's okay to share the link in my description, read it.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

100%. It can be pretty brutal. Was it hard for you? Was it hard for you to read those topics that we all have a part to play in our relationships, and it's not always the other person. We have do have a part in it. Was that hard to hear?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

It's hard because if I was married, yes, I would find that more odd, more so. But reading it as I am now, I can relate to and understand it. That's where the understanding from my point of view comes from. I do understand it. Like I said, it's not about one person. If you're in a relationship, there's two of you. It's not one of you. Yes, you might have the stronger alpha type, either the male or female, trying to be the dominant one, but there's two of you in a relationship. That's what people forget, it's two. If you've got kids, yeah, so be it. But two of you. In the beginning, before you had children, there's two of you.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Exactly. And where do you think for you there's been a time where you've almost like obviously the name of the book being It's You, Oh Fuck It's Me, in other words, that projection of she's the problem or he's the problem or they're the problem. Where's some examples in your life that you've almost thought that they were the problem and then caught yourself, actually, hang on a minute, I'm just as much of the problem here, or I had a part to play in this. I think there times in your life where that's happened?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

A few times. Especially when I was growing up. When I was that age where I was starting to rebel against my mother, because my mother raised me as a single mother. Yeah, there was times where at the time I was like, it's my mum, it's my mum, it's my mum. But like I said, it goes back to reflection and I reflect back now and think, yeah, maybe I was that, but I can't change that now. I wish I can, but but at the same time, I'm living the best life I can by saying, yeah, it's me, but I'm felt because I'm doing the best I can and where I am now.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, and this isn't the whole basis of the book for anyone listening, isn't about beating yourself up. It's all about if we can learn personal accountability, we can actually have better, more fulfilling relationships and better, more fulfilling lives, really, is what the basis of the book is about. What about with your previous relationship? Can you see any part in that one where you might have been a part of that, even if it is choosing the wrong partner? Like have you reflected much on that?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

I tend to think, and it's me being honest as possible, yes, maybe I should have done more. But because of the situation it was, I couldn't. So, yes, if you say it's me, I wish I could have done more from my side. But I was I couldn't change it. I can't change it. That's the thing, I can't change it.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

No, we can't change it, but we can definitely learn from it.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

And I have learned from it. Like I said, I'm in a better place now. She's in a better place herself now, and I think the only reason she wanted that way of thinking is me looking back again, is and I see it. I think she just wanted the companionship so she wasn't alone.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah, and we get pretty needy, right, as human beings. That connection to be loved is so great. And I think this is what we don't see. There's a lot of talk these days out there about narcissists and empaths and all this labels, labels, labels. It's all a desire to be loved. Like if I don't have boundaries, if I don't learn boundaries in my life, I'll get taken advantage of. But is that the other person's fault that they've taken advantage of me, or is it my fault that I haven't learned boundaries? And there's so much you talked about childhood, there's so much that we need to we all should be in some sort of therapeutic work, whether it's podcasts, talking to others. For me, it's preferably not my partner because she's also a therapist, and I think I need to go to a man personally because I didn't really have strong male role models growing up. So for me, having a man that I go to on a regular basis and do therapy with on a weekly basis for me is so beneficial because otherwise I can almost think as a therapist, oh, I've got it all together now, I'm always in the right, or I know what I'm doing because I've learnt this intellectually. I don't think we always live it as much as we'd like to.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

And do you think is there any way where any areas in your life where you hide behind awareness or identity of who you think you are as well?

SPEAKER_00 21:17

I think the awareness was a bit blurred when I was in that situation. Like I said, I'm more aware now than I have been. And I'm more aware of the certain situations I don't need to hide because that was the problem. I used to hide because it was the stigma of she was saying, David, you're this, David, you're that. When it was new people, she introduced me as David, you're this, and then that person came to me privately and said, David, you want to be this or do you want to be David as that? And I said, I want to be David as you see me now, and not as a label what's been put on me.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

And so someone out there, how did you get? out of that if anyone's listening and they're in an unhappy relationship where it's not the right fit, how did you go from there to where you are now? How did that relationship, if you want to share that, what did accountability ability look like to get out of there for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Accountability was because she was I'm not saying I was avoiding it because things happen, life gets in the way. And yeah, it gets back to the title, fuck it, it happens. But she was ill. I was alone. I was not reaching out to people, but I was there supporting people and there was a website well app on the phone back in the day that out people and I was on this app that I was a part of and I just saw who I'm with now and she was reaching out she wanted that reassurance and I said I'm here for you and then we just started getting closer and our talk started getting more close and I said because she you know not my place to say what Olive was like but she wasn't in a good place.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Saying there's a level of codependency there that formed right which is pretty common in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

And I was there for her you know it was not like the same situation as it was with my former wife I was there for my partner I'm with now I was there understanding when the shit hit the fan I was there when she needed someone I was there helping her feel comfortable in saying you can get past this you can be who you want to be just be strong and you can get out of that situation. And she didn't know about me being married at the time that was one thing that I did wrong and I should have told her from the get go and I always tell her I feel bad because I didn't tell her but she said the thing is you're with me now and I said yeah I am and I'm proud of that but ultimately what made me get out was because I knew I could do it.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

I was able to say I got this and I've grabbed it and I took it and I ran with it and I am where I am now the other woman's house the original partner how did you get to where you are now what did that look like she she met me the Ur now met me which is a mutual understanding like I said you have to meet people to understand that the person's real to understand.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

So I said to her meet me at this location and I'm not gonna say the location just in case my former spouse does listen to this but I'm trying not going to but she knew roughly where I was I think but I met who I'm with now and she took me back to the state I'm in now and I was like I'm happy I felt happy and I felt believed it was almost an intervention was it she almost rescued you out of there. Yeah even though she didn't come to my physical door and knock on the door and say come on I'm getting you out I met her like 40 minutes down the road in a public place and she we you know got to know each other we shared how we really felt for each other we shared that love from the get go and then the next day she took me back to the state where I am now and I've been here ever since and the divorce happened last year for me and my well that's the story right that's a journey in itself what about all your belongings and things like that did you just leave them all did you or how did you get all your stuff? I took three suitcases okay because I didn't want to make and this is dumb of me to say I didn't want to leave a trail of things to trace back to where I was even though it was obvious I was gone I didn't want to leave that trail and yes I left several things that probably could have been sentimental value to me but at the end of the day I wanted to start afresh.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

So what price is freedom right for anyone out there we can't put a price on freedom like if you're in an unhappy relationship you know I'm not always saying it's good to be rescued out of there but things happen for a reason right you've got to take some accountability and get yourself out.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah and you've got to do it in the way that you can do it. Now if you why were you like why was there a level of not wanting to leave a trace were you fearful are you fearful of your ex-partner or was it just that you just wanted to I was feel I feel she's dangerous she's not I'm trying to say this legally so I don't get into trouble in any legal way but she wasn't dangerous but the fact was her family made it difficult for me and I knew if her family knew where I was it would have been more ardour for me because they were in the same umbrella of using the stigma on me saying David is this when David is not this he's what you see now David is present and because for five years of that time I was with her it was always David is this and never David is present and I just felt like I couldn't be myself so if I tried to do the normal thing by moving everything out at once it would have been more damaging for my mental health.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

So that's why I wanted to I'm so glad you got it out of there David and on my podcast you know I usually get the guest to leave a question or a statement or something for the next guest.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Not really a teaching so leave one sentence question statement for the next guest okay my closing statement and I'll keep it very simple you got life in front of you you admit it's difficult and you know it's difficult but never leave yourself questioning the fact that you are never alone even if you think you're alone because there is someone always out there for you and my question is do you know who that person is it's a person who's with you supporting you now and you can say their name anytime because they are fair and knowing that person good on you keep it up so if it was one sentence what would you leave from what you just said then give me one sentence I guess the legally that I can give the next year.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Dreams are possible dreams are possible I love that there dreams are possible and we'll leave it there.