Max N - Happyness

In this episode, I’m joined by Max Nijst.

Max has been clean and sober for almost twenty three years. He is a substance abuse counsellor, recovery coach, husband, father, grandfather of twelve, and someone who has spent decades helping people rebuild their lives after addiction. Before we even started recording, I knew this conversation wasn't going to be about drugs or alcohol. It was going to be about what sits underneath them.

We spoke about recovery, but not in the way most people expect. Not about putting the drink down. About what happens after the drink is gone. The anger that remains. The shame that remains. The stories that remain. Because abstinence and emotional sobriety are not the same thing, and that is something I think gets missed far too often.

Max speaks openly about relapsing four times before finally finding long term recovery. There is no performance in the way he tells those stories. No attempt to make himself look better than he was. Just honesty about what addiction actually looks like when you are living inside it. The guilt. The denial. The bargaining. The part of you that keeps believing this time will somehow be different.

One of the things that landed for me was how much we spoke about projection. The way human beings instinctively point the finger outward because looking inward feels too threatening. We both laughed about how easy it still is, even after years of recovery, to find ourselves thinking, "It's you," before catching ourselves and realising, "Oh fuck. It's me."

That really sits underneath this entire conversation.

We also spent time talking about childhood. The stories we build about ourselves long before we are old enough to question them. A comment from a parent. A moment of embarrassment. A teacher. A family member. Tiny moments that quietly become identities we carry for decades. Not because they are true, but because nobody ever challenged them.

What I appreciated most about Max was his humility. After more than two decades sober, years working in the addiction field, and helping countless people recover, he still speaks as someone who considers himself a student first. There was no pretending he has arrived. No pretending he has life figured out. Just a willingness to keep looking at himself before looking at everyone else.

This episode isn't really about addiction.
It's about responsibility.
It's about the stories we continue to believe.

It's about the courage to stop asking why the world keeps happening to us and start asking what part of us keeps creating the same experience.

The question Max leaves for the next guest is this:
How can you make this world a better place by starting with you?

Max can be found at: https://www.fearlesshappyness.life/

It’s You. Oh Fuck. It’s ME. In Session with a Psychotherapist
Hosted by Chad Taylor. Author of It’s You. Oh Fuck. It’s ME

No tips.
No fixing.
Just real conversations.

GROUPS/COURSES: PATREON

WEBSITE

INSTAGRAM 

BOOK SALES: SHOPIFY

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I'm Chad Taylor, psychotherapist, author of It's You, Oh Fuck, It's Me. No tips, no fixing, just real conversations. Today I've got Max with me. Max, who the fuck are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

I love it because that's when I asked you the question. So I'm a recovering person for almost 23 years this September on the 27th. I'll celebrate 23 years clean and sober. But first and foremost, I'm a child of God. I'm a husband, a father, and a grandfather of 12, which I love that job.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Grandfather of 12.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, and I'm a substance. I've been in the uh addiction field as well for uh 17 years as a substance abuse counselor. So I got many hats.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Many hats. What brought you onto the podcast today?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Uh this dude named Chad asked me to come on here and say, let's have a great conversation because he blessed me with his presence and we had a wonderful conversation about who Chad was and what Chad does. And I said, sure, I'm honored to be here, right? Because we just wanted to have a real down-to-earth conversation about what's going on in the world today, but how we as people, right? I like from previous guests, like us having a spirit, we are spiritual beings having a human experience, and we have to be a little bit more spiritual, I think. Chad and I discussed that before on the podcast when he was a guest.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, and straight into it. What's going on in the world today, or what's our reaction to what's going on in the world today is the biggest thing that's the topic of conversation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I love that you bring that up because right, you and I you'll relate to this. In early sobriety, I was taught that I had to slow down and learn to respond instead of react. But in my humble opinion, when I get caught scrolling through social media and watching the news, we see a lot of reaction going on where people, I think, aren't taking time to connect with each other to get to know each other, but you know, based off whatever belief you have or political affiliation, right? You're either a bad person or it's to me on my 58 years on this earth, it's been the craziest time, at least for me, to see this stuff going on, which tells me that I really have to stay on the path and treat people with kindness and love and compassion and respect, right? Because I think I told Chad one of my favorite quotes from Jesse Jackson is you never look down on anyone unless you're picking them up or helping them up. So, you know, that's been my purpose ever since I got sober, is you know, because after four relapses, my sponsor said, Well, you know, I am responsible, right? So when I said that, right, that really hit me after my last relapse. And it goes like this, right? I am responsible when anyone anywhere cries out for help, let the hand of AA be there. And for that, I'm responsible. And my sponsor said, You're gonna take the AA part out and put when anybody, right? Not just people in meetings, it could be someone on the street that needs your help holding the door open for someone. And that was probably the best advice he could have given me at the time because it made me really focus, right? Instead of focusing on myself and what I needed, it turned it around to see where I could be helpful, right? So I could take the focus off myself and actually do some work, you know, and do something worthwhile because, you know, before getting sober, it was all about me. And it didn't matter who it I hurt. It it was I was gonna get what I needed to get, and it wasn't gonna no one or nothing was gonna stop me, you know, unless I landed with those silver bracelets, and then for a little bit, yeah, I got stopped.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

But it still can be all about us. I think that's part of what I see in the work that I do. But I usually go straight into a business promo straight up, just in case somebody finishes the podcast early. I want my guests to get their spiel out at the start rather than leave it until the end. Who do you work with and where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

So I'm on every social media, I think, just about LinkedIn, TikTok, uh, mostly on Facebook and Instagram. So on Instagram, you can find me at the Fearless Happiness Ninja or the Fearless Happiness Podcast. On Facebook, it's max.nast. Um, where else am I? And that's about I think the major ones that I'm on. And then I have a website. You can reach me at max nijst.org and it shows you what I do there, which I have a private practice, even though I still continue to work in the addiction field. I'm kind of like the continuation when someone I'm like the accountability partner that someone needs once they leave treatment. Because I don't know about you, Chad, but I think you can relate to this too. When I got out, it was like, what do I do now? Because I was in that little cocoon of a place, kept safe, had rules. And so I kind of help people with some accountability along with some substance abuse counseling and recovery coaching and just helping them learn some tools to let them keep thriving instead of just surviving. That's what I do.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah, there's a big difference between emotional sobriety and abstinence from drugs and alcohol, right? And I think a lot of people don't realize the difference that you put the drugs and the alcohol down and you don't replace it with the program, or you don't start to work on the issues deep down that cause the drug and alcohol use or the gambling, or it doesn't really matter what the behavior was. Don't actually work on that. We might as well be drinking and drugging because we're just as fucking detrimental to ourselves and to people around us.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Absolutely. And I found that out the hard way, right? Where in my early recovery the first time around, where I, you know, I wanted to look good, right? And keep obviously probation or whatever off my back, but never really like doing the steps. If you know what I mean, like really, because I would get to the four step, and it's like, I'm, you know, I still had that mentality. I'll tell my sponsor this, but he doesn't need to know that, right? Like, I'm not gonna snitch on myself, right? Because of that jail mentality or street mentality. But once you get your butt kicked enough, you know, I finally, you know, after my last relapse, which was only a day, right? One use, but it the guilt and shame that kicked in and the feeling like I had been out there for another 20 years, it was I can't describe it, right? But I look in the mirror and it's like I'm looking at myself and I there's two ways I could go. I could go to prison or I'm gonna die doing this. So what am I gonna do? And I remember dropping to my knees and asking God for help and going, God, okay, I know I've asked you for help before, but you know, if you keep me sober, I promise to do the work to stay sober, and that's why I'm here 20 almost 23 years later, right? Because then I finally got to that third, fourth step, and I was like, I'm gonna tell my sponsor everything, I'm not holding back. And that was one of the most difficult things to do, right? Because you know, you don't want to tell people your deepest, darkest secrets, right? But that man, by sticking by my side through those four relapses, really showed me that he cared and that you know, he wasn't trying to tell me how to do recovery, but he was showing me by his actions how recovery was done. And it's been an amazing journey, right? And then along that, like I've gone back to school when I was going to school to become a certified substance abuse counselor. One of the things they teach you, and I'm sure you heard this in school too, like a good therapist has a therapist, right? Then that meant for me I really had to dig deep and get those root causes of why, you know, for me of finally figuring out it was like my anger and resentment at my father, even my mother, and most of all myself, right? Because I swore when I was growing up and I got married I would never be my dad. And I ended up being worse, right? Because my addiction took off and I could literally be two houses down, but the shame and guilt was so so bad that I wouldn't see my kids, and that lasted for like nine years until I finally surrendered and got sober.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Thank God for yourself and for the kids and for everybody around you that you did, because we're a minority. The amount of funerals and the amount of suffering I've seen through untreated addiction or untreated alcoholism in the world is fucking phenomenal. And even hearing you then four relapses, people listening that aren't an addict and alcoholic are probably thinking, fuck mate, why did it take four times? But it takes what it takes. And I think the most abnormal thing for an addict and an alcoholic to do is not use or drink.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Well, you know, in your studies, I know in my studies, and with one of my mentors who was um a teacher, also a licensed marriage and family therapist, but who helped here in California put together the board that oversees uh certification. And uh he was very active until the day he died. I always called him Mr. Laws and Ethics, man. He was always the guy I could go to. And he pulled me aside one day when I was visiting class, and he goes, You know, there's proof now that there's it's in your DNA, right? Like you're predisposed to addiction if it's anywhere in your family, right? And I like to say fortunately, right, because it led me to where I am today, but I have it on my dad's side, I have it on my mother's side, and you know, four of my children all have the ism, two of them are sober, and but there's also you know, the people that say, you know, well, that's not true, right? Because I have kids that whose fathers or whatever are, you know, but they're totally opposite, and absolutely, right? Sometimes that gene doesn't affect them. But I know for me, I was because I have an older brother who's gonna be 45 years clean this year in December. I have another brother who's sober, who's 10 years older, and then my youngest brother who passed away because he lost his battle to addiction and decided to take his own life, right? So it runs deep. And um, I kind of always knew, but I never I don't know about you, Chad, but I never heeded the red flags. I was like, ah, anyway, that's not me, right? It ain't gonna happen to me, but it happened.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I think it progressed so quickly in me that I didn't I was a kid by the time I was in addiction and alcoholism, I was a kid, really. So I don't even think I really I think I knew I was an alcoholic when I was 16. I was already trying to manage my drinking at 14, manage how much I drank and whether I drank light beer or whether I drank full strength beer, and this was at 14 years old. So I knew I chased it from I was really like my sponsor always used to say to me, You were like you were the pig at the trough for him, his drinking progressed to and I was pretty resentful about that. I used to go to meetings at 22 years old, and I'd say, It's alright for all you fucking old pricks, you guys got to drink till you're 50. I'm fucking 22 and I'm in here, and I was so resentful, but that's the only place you can go where you can get up and abuse the fuck out of everyone, really, and say, I don't want to fucking be here, but I have to be here, and exactly that. It's alright for you guys, you just got to drink till you're fucking 50, and it's like thanks, keep coming back, keep coming back, don't get the clap, and and I think I couldn't do it. I hopefully I'm not doing that after five years, but in the early days, I didn't want to fucking be there. I was in this point where I knew I couldn't drink and drug anymore, more drink for me than drugs, but I knew I couldn't live that life anymore. But I really didn't want to fucking live a life without drinking and drugging because to me at 22 that was like I'd rather be dead. But I think we talk a lot about staying in the middle of the herd, staying in the middle of the tribe. If you stay in the middle of the herd, you can't get pecked off. If we're crossing the river and it's full of alligators, the safest place to be is right in the middle of the pack. And I think that's what I did. Even though I didn't want to really go, I knew it was either the I'd be in the middle of the pack at the pub being a fucking idiot or bottle shop, or I I could be in the pack, even though I didn't want to be there. And I think the people in the rooms, I don't know if I really like that word, love me back to life, because it wasn't easy for me. I fucking I feel like I've been just as ostracized in the rooms because I'm a bit of a rule breaker than what I have as anywhere else. I was never in the clicky group anywhere I've been, but I stuck with it, and I think now it's allowed me to live the life that I live today and work with the people that I work with. I've just come back from Bali, I went over to Bali for the International Alcoholics Anonymous Convention, and then a week a week later they have the Narcotics Anonymous Convention, and so I had a big like eight or nine days full of fellowship and connection, and then I got asked to go and talk in a rehab at the top of Bali Island, and they drove us up there and put us up and fed us. And I was sort of saying when I was there, and I've always said this, I'd fucking go and live in a rehab if I could. And I know you said you work in treatment facilities because that is my tribe, right? When I'm around those people, I feel they're probably the people that understand me the most outside of my family and my friends. My partner understands me, but she's one of us, she's in recovery. But I think a lot of people don't get it. Even when you said then four relapses, I think people that don't understand this think, why the fuck would you do that four times? Didn't you get it the first time?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

The first time was my worst, right? Like that was a three-day run, right back to where I left off. You know what I mean? As it never gets better, it always gets worse. And and I asked myself that too, but when you're in the grips, right? And the last three weren't bad. I was getting high and drinking, right, and sneaking off, but I wasn't like like the first one. But like I said, the one day was one use, but it felt like I had been running the streets again for 20 years, doing and um and like you too. I mean, I got sober at 32, and I I thank God for the fellowship, right? Even though when I came back after the fourth one, because you're right, right? You get the looks like, oh, here he goes again. Like, is he gonna stay sober? Right, you get the looks and the whispers, and right, and even though some of it and 99.9% of it was in my head, like for instance, one time we're at a meeting, I'm sitting next to my sponsor, right? And meeting hadn't started yet, but we're sitting in our chair, and like you look at people across the room, and they're like whispering, right? Talking to each other in my head, I'm like, Hey, Daryl, check that out. Man, they're talking shit on me. He's all what? Like he yeah, look at them, man. They're talking shit. He goes, Max, he goes, Well, I got bad news for you. You're not that important. Shut up and listen, right? And I loved it, right? Because he, I mean, he never yelled at me, everything was a suggestion. But when I needed like the kick in the butt like that, I was like, dang, he's right, right? They're probably not even talking about me. But this journey of of like the onion, right? The the uncover, discover, and discard, right? Which you and I get to do on a daily basis, right? And like some people, like my wife, she's a normie. Well, she won't tell you she's a normie, but she's not one of us, right? And she threw all things, I feel for her, I feel for her. But she's been surrounded by addicts and alcoholics, so she gets it. But certain things she she like, I'll teach her and tell her what I mean. And and and that's why we're we have that discussion. She's like, Look at my kids, right? Their dads aren't, they were all suffered at one point. One still is, but all her children are productive, right? They're they're good parents, they take care of their families. Because, like that first drink, like you said, I take the first drink, and then that drink takes me. There's no moderation whatsoever, because then you get that fuzzy warmth feeling for a minute, then you go chasing it, right? And then other things come into play that oh, if that was that good, then this must be better. Like I had a talk with a clinical director one time, and he goes, I don't get how people say there's functioning alcoholics, right? There's no such thing as a functioning alcoholic that I know of, right? Every alcoholic I know doesn't function well. But we had the discussion and he had met some valid points, and he goes, I probably would call it something else, but this this path, right? Of like turning inward, because I know you could relate to this too. Like when they said I got to turn inward and really take a look at what is going on with me that I need to change, right? I remember my sponsor would suggest that, right? We're gonna do the steps, and you're gonna have to take a deep look. You got to be honest with me 100%, or I can't help you, right? And um, but it taught me, right, that nothing was gonna get better if I didn't tell him what was going on or tell him the truth, whether I was having a good day or a bad day, or even a blot, not a bad or good day, just kind of going with the flow, right? I I learned with him to get honest, and I'm talking sometimes brutally honest, right? But they teach us rigorous honestly, honestly, honesty in the program. I just had to certain people I had to be rigorously honest with, right? Because that brutal honesty might damage a relationship. But it's the best thing that's ever happened for me. It's the best thing I think if my kids and my grandkids were to tell you they they wouldn't want their opa or their dad any other way but sober, right? Because that's all they've known. None of them have ever seen me pick up a drink or a drug, my children, my grandchildren, or anybody. So, and like you said, I I have a small, there's seven of us from when I went to treatments, last sober living. There's seven of us. My sponsor just turned 25 years sober on Sunday. So he's now officially an old timer. So I got to call him and go, You're officially an old timer now, man, because you're right behind me, right? But there's seven of us that still talk to this day that are all 20 plus years sober, right? In some circles, that's rare, but we all made a decision, right? Because we talk like we talk about in the book, right? We make a decision to turn our life and our will over to the care of God as we understood Him or her, whatever you want to believe. But I believe there's a power greater than myself that's keeping me on this path. I just have to continue doing the work. And I got plenty of people when I should be going left, will tell me, Matt, you're going right, you need to go the other way.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, and I think that's a testament to you guys to still be alive because that isn't the statistics at all. So, what I do in this podcast, the last guest leaves a question or a statement or a line for the next guest. And the last guest left, what are you most willing to sacrifice for someone?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

What happens when you feel that? What happens to you when you hear that? What resonates?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

See, I think I'm not the richest man in the world, right? But I believe I have a great life, right? Because of sobriety. So that always, like I said, and it's things we see. I think about I saw this thing last night, right? My wife, I could hear her going, oh my, like under her breath, cussing, right? Because she saw something that was pretty brutal, right? So I uh what I would say is I would give my life up for my kids and grandkids for them never to even experiment with a drug or drink. Right? Just because I know, like you said, I can't even count anymore on either people I do know that decided to go out and never came back, never made it back, or in as a veteran, I've known many combat vets who 22 a day, right? They they didn't make it. Yeah, it's just that's what I think of when you ask that question, right? I would give my life. I think I've lived a full life. So if that if God came down and said, What would you do? I say, take me, make sure they don't ever have to experiment with a drink or a drug.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, and that's amazing, right? Because I think coming from that world, I don't know how my daughter's gonna go yet. I've got two daughters, and I don't know if they are gonna be um the same as me. And I guess that's something that comes up when we've got kids is I'm learning to not force my will onto my kids. We don't know, I don't think, whether it's genetics, whether it's environmental, whether it's a spiritual issue, whether it's all of the above. Now they're seeing now more it's a digestive enzyme problem, and that's the allergy comes from a lack of digestive enzymes, and that when we put alcohol in our system and drugs, the liver, the digestive enzymes in the liver can't process the alcohol and the drugs the same, and it almost sends signals to the brain and tells us we need more. Which to me makes a lot of sense because 50 years ago they used to inject alcoholics with vitamin B and things like that, and part of this digestive enzyme issue is that we don't absorb vitamin alcoholics don't seem to absorb vitamin B the same as other people. So I don't know about you, but we've got to take an activated vitamin B to get the vitamin B because we have a deficiency in it, which drives the allergy. There's so much that it goes on behind the scenes, I think. Yeah, and to avoid that suffering for our kids, I would I would give anything because fuck it's not a it's not a nice life, right? Especially I'm a man and when I was drinking I was overweight and fucking just a complete mess. So women didn't really take advantage of me then, but having two daughters, I really pray and hope for them that they don't have this illness that I suffer from this dis-ease. And if people can't cop the the disease component, I tell them just to hyphenate it that we're at dis-ease, which Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Absolutely. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you. Obviously, I gave you a copy of my book after your podcast. What what from my book landed for you, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Right? Because I caught myself doing it even if 20 almost 23 years sober, right? Is his title, Chad's title? It's you, because I found myself just the other day doing that to my wife. Like, it's you, and then I happened to glance down at my phone, and your book was on, right? And I said I laughed at her and I go, sorry, honey, oh fuck, it's me. I'm sorry, right? Even with a lot of time, and Chad will probably tell me or back me up on this, validate it, right? Doesn't mean we're perfect, right? But those things over the years that we used to do are still right, those unconscious things that drive us will find its way back to the surface. And I have found myself, especially if I know I'm working hard, right? And I make a mistake, when your boss calls you on it, right? Not mad, but I find that I get angry because I'm ready to like rip his head off and go, How dare you tell me I'm wrong? Because I'm perfect. I mean, but um I love that, right? I love your title because I think everybody needs to read your book because I think the more we can point the finger back at ourselves and work on ourselves, the less we'll be it's you. Oh fuck, it's me. We'll be able to get along.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Why do you think we do that? Why do you think we blame others? Why do you think our instant reaction to everything is to blame others rather than look at ourselves? What do you think a human drive? Why do you think we because this is a common issue in the world, projection is we're all projecting, right? What is it about human beings that do that?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

I'm gonna just say from my personal experience and my studies in psychology, those stories we tell ourselves or that have been built from the time we were children, right? I think I talked to you about it on uh when you're on my podcast, right? I was helping an uncle sell some stuff at a swap meet, and I used the calculator, right? So I could give the customer the correct change. But right there, he belittled me in front of the the customer and then did it again and told my mom, and then she did it in front of everybody in the family. And so it was one of those stories that's like one of the things I can think of where it's like I have to point the finger at you because I'm still that hurt little child that got told his math sucked, right? Which is I know it some people are gonna go, what does that have to do? But the story I told myself was I was not good enough, right? In order for me to feel good enough, I had to point the finger and point it back at you to get that heat off me. And that worked for many years. And then, as Chad and I know, it doesn't work, right? I have to take a look at myself. If I want to be the change in the world, I have to make the change, or like Michael Jackson's song, The Man in the Mirror. It's I that song gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it. Not because it's Michael Jackson, because it's so true. He says, apart, I'm paraphrasing right, is like if you want to make the change, look at the man in the mirror and then go make that change. That's how we're gonna change. That's how you and I chat are gonna be the best fathers possible because I have two daughters as well, and I have a son, two sons, and then I have stepdaughters and granddaughters. So I I it's it still happens, right? And I'm still a work in progress, progress, not perfection. But that's where I have found in my own backyard, as they say, is that's why I did it. Because I when I would sit and reflect, it was like, okay, I was getting put down again. So my defense mechanism was to blame you for my problems.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Same as what your mom and your uncle did, right? Like, this is the problem. It's a big game of tag. It's a big game of tag in the world. We're just we're just tagging everybody with the shit that we've picked up along the way because we don't know how to deal with it. So we just pass it on to someone else through tag. Like, even when you tell that story, what is it about us adults that don't belittle my daughter? But if I'm completely honest, there's certain things she does that I I try and push her to change, say chewing her fingernails and things like this, and it's not it's not belittling her, it's like, hey darling, do you reckon you could stop that? And then a lot of it is for me, it's like, why when I really go in and I do an inventory on it, what is it about that that bothers me? What is it? I want to tell her inventory, but things she might do that I think I'm trying to make her conform into what I think she should be, so that it soothes me. Like at the end of the day, I was just thinking about that story and I don't want to follow it too much, but what you just said then, it's like you you you were damned if you did and you're damned if you didn't. If you didn't use the calculator and you gave the wrong change, you would have copped it. You do the right thing as a little kid and you use the calculator, so you give the right change and you copped it. We're fucking we are we are so unconscious as human beings, and this isn't a bag out on your uncle and your mum at all. It's just we're so unconscious that I don't think we understand the effect we have on other people because a lot of us in relationships or with our children parenting, it doesn't really matter what it is. I think we do put a lot of people in positions where they can't win.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Absolutely, right? And what I've learned like a lot of it's generational, they were taught what they were taught, they know what they know. Um, and I plan on being one of those that breaks that generational curse. Because a lot of times, I don't know about you when you were growing up, but when I was growing up, like that generation, my older generation, it was like, do as I say, not as I do, right? And they were always telling you, do this, do that, and you couldn't talk back, or you couldn't say anything. But what I want to do, right? If I'm gonna be that change, like if I see something going on with my kids or my granddaughters or grandsons or whatever, right? Because no one ever explained, like when you couldn't do something, or if you got in trouble, it was that was it, right? You got in trouble, but if you can catch them, right, and I think they'll remember it, say they do something wrong, you tell them, and then you tell them why, then they're gonna understand, right? But I never got told that it was either the wooden spoon or you're going to your room or you're on restriction, right? With no explanation. So growing up, it's like I know if I do something bad, this is gonna happen, right? So I gotta be sneaky and not get caught.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah, and I think it's funny. I I almost get the opposite from my daughter because I do give her the explanation if I've if I've yelled at her and sent her to a room, which is very rare, or something like that. And I open the door and I I've done my inventory, I've done the inventory and I see my part in it that I might have overreacted or that I was carrying stuff from the day that ended up coming out on her because we're all human and I go in, she'll almost just look at me and roll her eyes and say, Dad, do we have to do this? Can you just yell at me like a normal parent and just leave it at that? She doesn't like the understanding, so I get the opposite, which is quite funny. And I suppose where I was the question I was gonna ask you next was where do you think we can hide behind awareness or identity? Like, where do you think, as counsellors and therapists and people in recovery, where do you think we can hide behind that awareness, or where do you think that yeah? I suppose that's what I'll ask you. Hide behind that awareness of who we think we are in the world.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Wow, that's a good question. I've never been asked that before. Like, hide behind the awareness of who we are.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Well, I have the authority here because I'm a counselor, I'm trained, I've got a university degree, like I know human psychology.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Gotcha, gotcha. I see what you're saying. I think the only way to under and the way I've been taught, right, is to as right, you meet someone where they're at and try to understand, right? I had this interesting conversation with someone who's in recovery, but they're they wrote a book about leadership and how surrender, you surrender to win. And that was told to me when I was in early recovery by an old timer, right? Like you need to surrender, Max, to win. And where I came from, and there's no surrender. There's you just don't you fight till the end, right? You go down, right? And especially being ex-military, right? You're taught never surrender. And it took me a long time to understand that, right? So, what I try to do is let the person I'm working with know that I'm just an equal, right? I just have a couple more days ahead of you. I'm no different, right? And I always tell them, look, we're doing this side by side, and it seems to ease their mind when I do that, right? Like, no one walks, you're not gonna walk behind me, I'm not gonna walk in front of you. We're gonna do this together, side by side. And most of the time I could see the little light flicker, like, oh wow, they're not talking down to me like I know nothing and they know everything, right? But that's what I've learned in my recovery. The longer I stay sober, the less I know. And when I come with that kind of attitude, right, I know that that's why I'm a lifelong learner, right? It's funny, since you've been on my podcast, I've been thinking about going back to grad school. So I've been putting out some applications and about to talk to the wife and see if that's okay with her, right? Because I know that's a lot of work. But I I I want to become a psychotherapist, a licensed marriage and family therapist, because I don't think there's there's a lot of the times I've had therapy with someone who's just out of school, and nothing wrong with them, but they maybe have no idea what addiction's even about. But I mean, like, but I think with the mental health issues going on in the world, there needs to be more guys like you, Chad, that understand it, that have been in the trenches and continue to stay in the trenches and talk to people that understand our language, right? Because, like you said, some people can come and say some things, and you're like, Man, I didn't know I was in college today, like I didn't know I was in a class. Thanks, Professor. Can you please explain yourself, right? But um, and that's why I think you and I got along so well, right? Like we talk the language of the heart, right? We talk the language that we understand and that people right because iron sharpens iron, right? And like we have to help each other become better people. I mean, if you believe in God, which I do, that's his sole purpose is for us to be helping each other, becoming happy, and then turning around and doing it with other people. I mean, there's nothing in the Bible that I know of that says you're gonna step on your fellows and get to where you got to go. Like I said, put your hand out, right? Whoever puts their hand back, that's the person you were meant to help at the time, right? And right, I try to keep it very simple so that I try not to because I've had people do that to me, and I'm just like I understood them, but I'm like, you're really gonna use that language that really matters in this situation that we're talking about right now, right? That's why I love our conversation when you were on my podcast and now, right? We can understand each other, and hopefully the audience does too, because it's all about helping each other, right? Remember that 16-minute TED talk from the journalist from Great Britain from England that talks about everything we know about addiction is all wrong, right? And then he talks about how Portugal legalized all the drugs, it worked really well for a while, but it was the ending that got me because he was right, right? Because he would say, Okay, what's the opposite of addiction? And you could hear the crowd going, recovery, sobriety, this or that, right? And he's like, Yeah, those are good answers. He goes, but the opposite of addiction is connection. So whether you're in recovery or not, I believe we all have to learn how to connect better on a human being level to make this a better world.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Yeah, connection is everything, everything, and that's probably a good spot to leave it because I try and keep this pretty trimmed. But I'm gonna get you to leave one sentence, one question statement for the next guest.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

How can you make this world a better place by starting with you?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Perfect. How can you leave this world a better place by starting with you? And we'll leave it there.