From High Performer to Leader: The Playbook You Didn’t Get w/ Lia Garvin

Have you ever stepped into leadership… and realized no one actually taught you how to lead people?

In this episode, Jule sits down with Lia Garvin—author of The New Manager Playbook and host of Real Talk: Leading Small Teams.

Lia shares the raw reality of becoming a first-time manager—navigating difficult team dynamics, strained peer relationships, and the pressure of leading without a roadmap. From managing an underperformer who resented her promotion to losing a close friendship after stepping into leadership, her experiences highlight what so many leaders go through—but rarely talk about.

What changed everything wasn’t time. It was learning how to lead with intention, clarity, and structure.

In this conversation, Lia and Jule discuss:

 • Why high performers often struggle most when they first step into leadership 
 • How to reset relationships when managing former peers or friends 
 • The importance of setting boundaries—and why leadership is an identity shift 
 • How to build trust through consistent, specific recognition and follow-through 
 • Why clarity, structure, and practical frameworks make leadership easier over time 

If you’re a leader who feels like you’re learning in real time, with everyone watching, this episode will remind you that you’re not alone.

Because leadership isn’t something you’re just supposed to “figure out.”

It’s something you learn, refine, and grow into—one conversation at a time.

Connect with Lia:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liagarvin/
Website: https://www.liagarvin.com/ 

Connect with Jule:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julesalem/
Website: www.julesalem.com

Dialing In is a leadership podcast for operators, executives, and founders building under pressure. Each episode explores how connection—when it’s intentional—becomes a true performance advantage.

Join us and subscribe to the show to be the first to hear new episodes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I would say connection looks like folks feeling like they are a part of something bigger. I think sometimes when we say that, it sounds like, oh, I have to be solving world peace or ending world hunger or doing something so huge and world-changing. And feeling connected to something bigger doesn't mean that. It means that like I'm seen for the value that I bring and that someone else sees like where that's going. And that's where I got so passionate about working with managers and leaders because that's kind of the whole job of that connection in the workplace of feeling like, hey, when I show up, I contribute in this way, and it helps this company or this vision or this thing move forward. And I'm not just punching a clock or a cogging machine, but I'm really here making a difference.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Welcome to dialing in. I'm your host, Jules Salem. And this is the podcast where we talk about the real work of leadership. Not just the wins, but the moments that force us to grow, recalibrate, and reconnect. Now let's go to the moment you step into leadership for the first time and realize that no one taught you how to actually lead people. How do you give feedback without damaging trust? How do you manage someone who resents you? How do you navigate the shift from being one of the team to now the person responsible for it? I know, I'm Ben there. In this episode, Leah Garvin, author of the New Manager Playbook and host of the podcast Real Talk, Leading Small Teams, shares what really happens when high performers get promoted into leadership without a roadmap. We kicked off our conversation with Leah reflecting on her first experience managing a direct report, who also happened to be the person that believed they should have been in her role. Let's dial in.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So my experience, as it is for so many of us, was really, really rough. I think a lot of us go from being on a team with peers, and we were the high performer or the 10Xers. So we're asked to be the leader because we were doing a good job as an individual contributor. And then the next day we're the manager, and everyone on the team is kind of like, uh, okay, well, it's a little bit weird at first. And we're all of a sudden supposed to be in charge of the situation. And I think everything that can kind of go wrong went wrong for me with this person, Paul. So he and I were peers. We did similar kinds of work, but had our own respective projects. So we didn't really have a lot of overlap, and I didn't really think much about it. Now that was until our shared manager, Kyle, told me he wanted me to be the manager of the team. And when he told me this, I was working in corporate and big tech, and I was so excited because in the corporate world, at least, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you really had to be a manager in order to rise through the ranks. Like progress in your career. Yeah, to progress in your career to get promoted. So this was about 15 years ago. So it was a kind of very structured, like you have to have a team and grow and kind of rise up to ranks, right? So I was thrilled because I wanted to be promoted and be growing. And I was like, yes, this is my big break. Well, I didn't realize Kyle had kind of also told Paul that one day he would be the manager. Oh no. And so yeah. And when he announced this, Paul looked at me and said, Oh, you stole my job. I'm gonna make your life a living nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Real quick, did he actually say that? Like, okay, I had wanted this job. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because I know I had that experience. Same exact. Someone telling me that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

I think like what you get is a manager making a lot of promises to a lot of people on the team. And then one person feels like you got picked arbitrarily. But the other thing that we see in the situation is inheriting what really was a low performer. And Paul, he didn't become the manager because he was like barely doing his work. And that wasn't dealt with. Instead of giving him the feedback, Kyle had said, Oh, one day, you know, you'll be, you can do this and that, and the other. And that became the problem that I had to deal with of someone that was frustrated because they felt like I stole their job. Then they're not delivering their work, then they're rubbing everyone the wrong way and kind of like really abrasive. They're always kind of creating conflict. And so I'm the manager and I'm dealing with a really disrespectful employee, someone that's not doing their work, like having to give feedback, people complaining about him, and like every horrible situation all at once. And you're like, welcome to leadership. Yeah. And I'm like, I didn't know this was about. I just wanted to get promoted, you know? And so I thought to myself, okay, this is horrible. I never want to do this again. And because I still remained working in big tech for a long time, it actually happened again the next time I was, I became a manager. And this time what made it a little bit worse was this was of a person that we were like work best friends. And that's, I think, the next thing that can happen is you don't just go from peers, but you are really good friends. We went to lunch every day. We hung out on the weekends. We it was kind of like us against the world. And then I became the manager. And I made the mistake of thinking, oh, well, we're really close. We know each other. It's all the same, like nothing changes here. And she felt like I had leapfrogged her in her career. She felt like I thought I was better than her now, and like it kind of created all of this new stuff that was like equally challenging to Paul, just a little bit sadder because I lost a friend in the process. So that was like strike two of being a manager. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah. Real quick. So going back to Paul, yeah. Did you have to face that? You know, here you are stepping in as his new leader, giving him feedback on his performance. And even how did you approach that with that being your first time having to do that?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, it being my first time, and I would say this happened with both the first and second time managing, was like thinking, oh, if I say something, it's gonna get worse. They're gonna get mad or they're not gonna like me. So really not being direct, I would say, hey, hearing this, I don't know, what do you think? Just completely talking around the issue, and then finally being like, hey, like this has to change. And they're like, Whoa, like who the heck are you to say that? You know, no real authority, and then coming down and like this isn't working, you know. And I think that was a big mistake in not really knowing how to give feedback, assuming incorrectly that because you became the manager, the person's gonna just defer to you and listen to what you're saying. And then the other piece that was really hard was having to give corrective feedback around the performance. It was really taken as, oh, you think your way is better. Like I was doing fine until you came along. That's the thing that, like, I think is the hardest. A lot of times we inherit a team, and our previous manager or whoever it was, the manager, did not give feedback. And we noticed something, we're like, hey, like, none of this is working. Don't we want to fix this? And it's like just said it, everything was fine until you came along. Now you're the one that has problems with everything. What a hard situation to inherit as a new leader who's optimistic, thinks, oh, I can make this team perform better, I can really add value here, and you're really in a deficit from day one.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Right. Certainly been in those same shoes. I remember starting a corporate role, and yeah, my first week, one of my direct reports was like, I was supposed to have your job. And you're like, okay, great. This is a great starting point for our relationship. But, you know, I'd love to get your input on what helped you most in navigating that. I hear you describe, like, okay, I tried to maybe approach some of the performance issues more delicately, and then okay, that wasn't working. So I came in with a tougher fist. In trying those different approaches, did you feel like at some point, okay, I'm I'm finding what's working?

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Yeah. Candidly, I did not find that with Paul. He actually ended up getting managed out by aka fired by like our higher ups because it was really fortunately, quickly in that situation, it was obvious to others, and I didn't have to deal with that any longer. With Mindy, yes. This was one, okay. Candidly, I started by asking my manager, like, please let me not be her manager anymore. I don't want to do this. Oh, wow. Yeah. That was a no. So she said, no, I'm sorry, you have to. So I knew I had to deal with it. It was a job I wanted. You know, I had other folks on the team it was going well with, right? So I was managing, I think, four people at the time. The other three were going really well. This was a situation where I tried a lot of different things. A couple things helped me work through this with Mindy was first resetting the relationship. Whether you had a relationship with folks prior or not, whether you're friends or peers, or just started off on a rocky foot as a new manager. Maybe you were hired in from the outside and somebody we felt like they were kind of skirted by the situation. Resetting the relationship, it is not about proving I'm supposed to be here, I'm the better candidate, I'm this. No, there is a broken relationship here and you've got to repair it. So I sat down with Minnie and I said, Hey, we had a rocky start. Like I think I made the mistake of kind of acting like everything was the same because we know each other already, but it's not the same. You know, like I'm the manager and I have a different level of responsibility. And it's this is hard. It's hard on both of us. And really naming all of the awkwardness that was showing up and then talking about how do we want to have hard conversations? How do we want to talk about feedback? How do we want to talk about kind of things that need to change if and when they come up? And that right there changed the game. But it wasn't going to get better without actually taking a step back and saying, let's really define how we want to engage in this work together. And then from there, really demonstrating, and I used the same approach on a team where I was hired in from the outside and became a manager on a team that had a revolving door of managers. They had a manager every four to six months for the last two years. So they looked at me and was like, okay, now we know here we're going to be able to do that. Here's the next one. Yeah, exactly. And so this next strategy I really worked with that and with Mindy was saying, hey, I am here to help you do your best. And I know that just saying that is that's just talking, but I'm going to show you that. And what it looks like is, you know, I want to know what your goals are and what you want to do. And I will work every day to help figure out what projects can align to get you there, what feedback you need, what visibility you need, and to really kind of walk the talk of I am here to be an advocate for you. I don't want to get in your way. I really want to kind of enable and unblock and just to show that and to keep backing it up. Again, hearing that once is lip service, but showing it and week by week and your one-on-ones and saying, okay, what are we working towards? That's where that really creates that shift and you can build trust pretty quickly with folks. Because I think in the end, people want to be able to rely on their manager. They want someone to be advocating for them. It's harder to be like, yeah, we'll see for like six months, right? If if you see someone that's showing up and consistently, they're they're gonna get on board. So that I would say the resetting the relationship and then really understanding what the goals were of my team members and showing up again and talking through those, having ideas about that, helping them troubleshoot, talking about not just the work they need to do, but how can we get them visibility, really showing I have like a really clear vision for how I can be supporting them in a bigger way.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

For where they want to go.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah. Yeah. I describe them too similarly as micro moments, right? So those like small, consistent daily actions to show your team that you're doing your best to show up for them and to try to support and elevate the direction that they want to go.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

So not to get off Mindy, but I do I want to dive in a little bit more there because I think your experience with that situation, I know I've encountered it and others going from being friends or or even sometimes I've seen where leaders just get a little too comfortable with their direct reports and then form those out-of-work relationships. I know from my own experience, like you almost can't be both in a sense.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

And would love to get your thoughts on what do you recommend for people that they're currently working with their peers and they're watching the football games or you know, going to the happy hours outside of work and then get thrust into having to be their manager. Because I do think people don't appreciate how drastically that can shift their relationship.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yeah. I think part of taking on that new role is recognizing it is forming new relationships with the rest of the team. And I think if you are not willing to do that, then you're gonna have a really hard time because the definition of like a peer group and friends is that everyone is equal and everyone has the same say in everything, right? That's why friendships work. When you become the manager, there is a different power dynamic and a different hierarchy. And so it's kind of like when you're all pretending that's not the case so that you can continue the social relationships as they were. There's gonna be a point when you run into something. And I'll say I was really close with my manager at the time of Mindy, and where that bit us on kind of like both ends.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

So I felt like my manager put me in this bad situation, and as a friend, she did. If I didn't have that personal friendship with her, it would be like, yeah, this is just business, it's a tough situation, it's too bad. But I felt like personally wronged by it. You know, it was so bad. And she knew how hard it was with Mindy. And I had worked with her for a number of years before that never ran into a single issue, being pretty close, right? So I think what we can forget is that it sort of comes to a head in the tougher moments where you as a manager, your hands are tied, or you're getting pressure from your higher-ups, or potentially there's layoffs that you know about that your team doesn't know about, or project restructurings that like there will be a moment when someone will say to you, How could you do this to me? I thought we were friends. And like when you don't create that boundary of like, there's gonna be some things that I know about that we can't talk about. There's gonna be some things that come up that you know, I'll share when I can't. When you never create that boundary and it's like just boom, like an anvil drops like on someone, it's so much more challenging. And you go back and wish you had done that. And I don't think that means you can't be friendly with team members, can't show them that you care, you know, still go to lunch. But I think it's really helpful to have a boundary that makes it very clear you're not all friends hanging out. And it means maybe removing yourself in certain situations. I think it means at the first and foremost, bare bones. It's like you're not commiserating around things other people, other people, never about other people, or about like the company and what they're doing and the priority shifting restructuring. You're kind of like, you have actually a different level of response to things like that. And it doesn't mean you're just kind of a corporate drinking the Kool-Aid. Yeah, exactly. But it's saying, yeah, that is a really tough situation, or that's frustrating. Here's one of the things that I how I look at it, or what I think I'm hopeful of for the team, you really shift the way that you talk about it. It really demonstrates that you have a different engagement that you're gonna have with the team.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Similarly, when I had been working with a peer, because I think the reality is just human nature. Like peers, they like to talk about their boss, or to your point, what the company's doing, or gosh, how could they make that crazy decision? And this person and I, yeah, we were really good work buddies, and we'd get together with our significant others outside of work and was someone I really respected, and we worked well together. And later in my career, had the opportunity to bring this individual on in a role at the company I was working for at that time. And it was a totally different dynamic because in that role I was this person's boss, and so our relationship of getting along so well in the workplace, well, yeah, now I was the boss to complain about. Yeah, so exactly it definitely shifts. Yeah, yeah. So I appreciate you sharing that because I think a lot of people, especially as first-time leaders, don't really have a true appreciation for how big that shift can be.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And it's hard because as you described, we're friends with these people, you know, we want to maintain those relationships, but it, you know, it's often can't be the same when you shift into a leadership role.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah. And I and one more thing to add is I think we don't talk about that. It really is an identity shift, and there's a loss with that. Like you actually are not a part of this peer group anymore. And there's a lot to be gained. But I think I actually heard in a mastermind for women entrepreneurs put on by Jaclyn Johnson, who started the Create and Cultivate community for women entrepreneurs. And she shared a story of when she was a founder and and started hiring folks. And then one year, like everyone went out for drinks after the Christmas party and didn't invite her, and how hard that was. She realized like she truly was a CEO in that moment that like she was seen as the boss. And she was so sad that she didn't get invited with everyone after that. It's kind of like we have these moments that sort of open our eyes to like, oh wow, like I didn't realize how much had changed. But I think when we resist that is that when we get in trouble, right, as leaders, because when we don't recognize that and then get ahead of it by having the right conversations, setting the right boundaries, we can be in this place where we fear really stuck.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

And I think we can get really, really stuck with that when we don't set those boundaries up front.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, no, for sure. I was laughing to myself as you were describing your friend who didn't get invited to the after holiday party. I, uh former HR manager, she used to, we worked out of separate offices and she would call me like Friday lunchtime, and she'd be like, Yep, they all just went all to lunch and I didn't get invited. I was like, I know, same happened to me, but nobody wants like the boss and HR there.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

So exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

But I think what you're describing through creating those boundaries, and then even as leaders, just accepting that is what comes with the territory and not taking it personally to heart and just knowing that that's just kind of the way it goes. Yeah, yeah. So I know you describe in your book that then you had a third, I think was Sharia. Yeah. If I'm saying that correctly, and that you felt like that's really when things started coming together for you. I'll let you describe, but it sounded like she helped in some of that based on her nature. And so what did that look like and what started coming together for you?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, well, this was a situation where I was able to hire a person, and so I think that's an easier situation just going in as a leader, like when you inherit someone versus you know, you're hiring, but it can also be problematic, right? Because there's never any guarantees with people. The real difference was I was hiring someone to be my own backfill. So they were gonna take on the work that I was doing already. And that's a really tough situation because you know exactly how you did it and how it worked well. And so I recognized that could be a challenge. So I think the first thing was knowing, hey, okay, this is gonna be a little bit of potentially like a trigger for me to want to micromanage or say like this, I would do that. Like that was something I went in really eyes wide open. And so when I was looking for someone, I was wanting someone that did bring new ideas that could like elevate and amplify the kind of foundation I had already laid working in this capacity. So that kind of came through in the onboarding process, right? Where I said, hey, you know, this is what I've set up. We had a lot of kind of programming that was company-wide that we had created that we wanted to keep running and then building on, and said, here's the things that we want to keep going. And then I would really love you to bring new ideas in these different areas. And I think giving her really a lot of clarity on what to keep doing and really where to add her own flavor. And then as she was adding things, really being excited about that and not shutting down ideas because it was a little bit different than I would have done it, or really demonstrating that, yeah, we do want to take this program to a new level. We do want to keep evolving it. It ended up being a really great dynamic that allowed her to make a huge impact and showed me in the power of not being afraid as a leader that someone's gonna like do it better than you and it looks like you didn't do it well the first time, or some kind of like narratives that we come up with, or that, oh, well, now how am I gonna show where I add value? Sure. Because with Sharia, the better she did, never had more often folks come up to me and say, gosh, you hired so well with Sharia. Sharia's awesome. Like, great job. She is fantastic. And that is the reality of it. That's the power of being a great manager, is finding people that can be awesome, right? And finding people and letting them, you know, flirt. Do their thing. Yeah. So that was a huge eye-opener. And I think really where I could exercise that self-management around, okay, I want to make sure that I'm not making all of this be done my way because I know it wasn't perfect and there was a lot we wanted to do that we could evolve on. So a lot of clarity up front, and then really amplifying and recognizing where she was really elevating this program overall. A piece of that too that's really important for managers is knowing where they can be making an impact so that they don't feel like, oh, I should be getting in the details so that I'm showing that I'm doing something. You know, and that's a big trap. I think in that shift of hiring someone to do that previous role, I got really clear on okay, what is my role now and what am I responsible for now? And how it's not just like loosely overseeing the day-to-day of Sharia, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah. I think what you're describing isn't unique in that even as leaders, we often fall into, well, I need to be having my own like individual responsibilities.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

And not maybe fully appreciating the amount of time and effort it takes to truly lead and manage others, you know. I know for myself, with the goal of bringing out the best in them to meet with success.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, exactly. And I think we might have had a leader in our time where we're like, what do they even do all day? Or we we have some preconceive, right? Like of like, we've all said it. Right. We've all said it. So we don't want to be that. And then we're like jumping in and meddling. And I think it's another one of those identity shifts that's could that can be challenging. But the answer is not just to hold on tighter, right? The answer is not to just push your team out of the way and say, I'll take it from here. You know, it's it's to be operating in a more strategic way. And if you're inside of a bigger company, building relationships with partner teams and looking at where your team can be making an impact, optimizing internal systems, there's like no shortage of work for managers to be doing. I think we can jump into the stuff we did in our previous role because we're comfortable with that. So that's something to really be tuning into. Am I in a little bit too deep in this specific area because that's the area I'm most familiar with, or I like the most, or maybe has the most visibility right now or scrutiny. So I'm getting most worried. There's a number of reasons we get stuck there, but the more we're involved, the truth is the less ownership our team members take. And if they're super high performers, they might say, Well, there's not really a future for me, so I'm gonna leave. And if they're like middle of the pack, they're feeling disempowered. And if they're low performers, they're like, Great, they're just gonna tell me what to do. I'll just wait here until I get my next instructions, right? So it's really a losing battle. So we've gotta let our team members thrive and do things on their own.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Absolutely. No, I'm totally guilty of falling into the trap. Oh, I'll just do it. Yeah. You know, try to juggle all the things. I know I've sensed even over the years, people on my own team that end up getting a sense of, oh, but if I show someone else how to do it, then is that going to take away from my responsibilities or how much I'm needed, you know, kind of to what you're describing.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

And I know for myself, I mean, it's still a work in progress, but trying to delegate more and give people the autonomy to complete things with the goal of always having the same outcome that we're expecting as an organization. But easier said than done often. It is.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

And I've gotten that question. I mean, one of the ways I support small businesses and founders is I come in a fractional COO capacity and create what I call their team operations playbook. And it spells out all of the sort of lightweight internal systems and processes from like what are our priorities and expectations, how we make decisions, hiring onboarding, work tracking, and then how we measure performance. And I've had prospective clients say, Well, if we make this playbook, like won't an employee just kind of go steal it and make their own business the way I would? And the answer is no, I've never seen that happen before. The playbook isn't the whole magic of the business. It's so that we're all clear and can be successful. And I think that's what we're saying here is the more clear you are and the more shared knowledge you have around how to be effective and successful and how we get things done, the better everybody can show up to work. It's actually a requirement for people to be able to do a good job. And so I think if you're scared, it's a real opportunity to think about okay, where am I really best equipped to be adding value? What really should I be focusing on? Like looking at what's driving that fear, because when projected back on the team, it's not gonna create an environment people want to work at. Business owners that roll out this playbook, they end up being able to have fewer hard conversations, feedback is easier, like they're less in the weeds, everything gets easier, which frees their kind of brain space to be able to actually grow the business. When I implemented similar things working corporate and with my corporate clients, like managers can actually feel like, oh, I can come up for air, I can have more meaningful one-on-ones. I don't have to be canceling every meeting. I don't have to be going to every meeting my team members are in. Like, this is something I see a lot in really kind of any kind of manager company, big or small, is folks feeling like I'm spread so thin, I can't even have my one-on-ones, I can't, can't, can't. And then I'm like, okay, let's look at how you're spending your time. And they're in 80% of the meetings that their team members are also in, even when they're managing managers, like they're also there. And I would say that is where you can save time. Go and look at all the ones that are overlapping where your team was also sitting there and figure out how you need to set up kind of expectations, guardrails, constraints, communication so that someone can run that on your behalf, loop you in, but that you don't have to also be there. Because it's guaranteed when you're in that meeting, someone's contributing in like lesser of a way that they than they could be, or they have the potential to be, right? Maybe not today, but when you tee it up and when you really help them kind of be prepared for that. Are you limiting them by being in the meeting? Right. Because they're like, oh great, you know, like hard conversation, the boss is gonna answer it. Yeah, we'd all like that, someone to help us with our hard conversations, sure. But but, you know, we don't learn the things we need to learn when someone's there to save the day.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Well, I wanna kind of circle back to the start of our conversation from reading your book. One of the things that stuck out to me, and I I hope you'll share the dedication that you made for your most recent book, I should say, the new manager playbook, who it was dedicated to.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

It was To all managers, it gets easier, I believe. Something like that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So that that really, yeah, sorry, I'm making you uh reflect on your memory here. But it really stuck out to me. Your dedication was, and I'll quote, to first-time managers, I promise it gets easier. And so when you as Leah look back to when you first took the first management role that we talked about when you were having to lead Paul, and you know, someone out there is thinking about stepping into leadership.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

What are the things that they should be most mindful of as they they look to embark on that?

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah. I've I'm glad you asked it. I actually haven't been asked that in that way. You know, the New Manager Playbook, the book, and I have a digital program that really reinforces the content in the book for new managers. It was all written and created because of the situation with Paul, because of going into being a manager with no tools and no support in a big company that actually had quite a bit of infrastructure to provide that. So like I worked in big tech, like a company that everyone's heard of. And when I worked at Google, where they have quite a bit of manager training, I still had the same challenges, right? And they had given some training and support, right? We feel like ill-equipped when we're just kind of thrown in there and we're supposed to just figure it out. And I think why it feels so hard is because we're dealing with people and they're complicated, and what works with one person doesn't work with the next person. And then, you know, what worked one day doesn't work, and someone's in a different sort of role or life stage. Sure. So I think the promise that it gets easier is I'm all about giving practical tools, frameworks, but how do we deal with it in the moment when we're having a hard conversation or someone's defensive or starts crying and we give feedback, or we have to tell them they didn't get the promotion. Like, what do we actually say and do in that moment? That's what I'd like to give folks is the actual playbook. Literally, that's why all like all these things I call are a playbook because I believe we all want to do a good job and we all want to be a good leader and show up in a better way. We just haven't been given the how. And it starts to get easier when you don't have to guess on the how. The how may not be applied the same way to every situation. So that's why I am an advocate for ongoing training and I do a lot of work, you know, live with folks and coaching folks and working hands-on. But when you have a foundation of a how, which I share in the New Manager playbook, you have a place to start. Like I had no idea how to talk to Paul about what was going on. I had no idea how to manage a former friend. I had no idea how to, you know, reset a relationship. I had no idea how to run a one-on-one. And when you're guessing at every single piece of it, like you're learning at the expense of your team. And I think that's the biggest thing we don't talk about. A friend of mine said this, and I was like, the I loved how it was framed. She runs a big team in an advertising company. And she said, It's wild when you're a manager, you're like learning with an audience in front of you, and everyone's watching if you're doing it right or wrong. With a microscope. Yeah. How scary is that? Like, that's that's so wild. And it gets easier the more we actually have some scaffolding, we can apply it. And we see that not every conversation is kind of like a make or break either. Saying, like, this is a really hard time right now. I'm working on showing up better. Like, you know, tell me what you need from me. You know, if you have a day that things don't go well, or you were like, I didn't want to handle that that way, maybe like say that to your team. You know, let it, let it bring it into the conversation. To acknowledge it. Yeah, exactly. That's what starts to get easier.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

I love that. And I will say I highly recommend your latest book, The New Manager Playbook, and also your podcast, which you'll have to do a plug for. Oh, yeah. Wrap up here. Because one of the things I always say, I read a lot of books and listen to a lot of things, but so often it feels more like theoretical. And so one of the things I love about the work that you do is that you make it so practical and actionable. So for those listening, Leah's latest book, she gives some really great frameworks and even details out how to approach the conversations that we've been discussing today. So if you're just starting out, or even if you've been in leadership a long time, it's a great refresher.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Thank you. I appreciate that. And Real Talk Leading Small Teams is the podcast. Actually, renamed that from the New Manager Playbook Podcast so that leaders really of any stage would, you know, see, hey, this is not just for new managers. It's really a leader in any situation.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah. Just love, like I said, how actionable and practical all of your feedback is. So, Leah, outside of the podcast and getting your book off Amazon, where is the best way for people to find you?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, start with the podcast, Real Talk Leading Small Teams, follow on LinkedIn, just Leah Garvin or Instagram. I put out a ton of little kind of like bite-sized videos with tips and tools. So that's at Leah.garvin. And if you want to get in touch or get support for your team, reach out at hello at LeahGarvin.com and we can have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Wonderful. Thank you, Leah. I appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Thank you for tuning in to dialing in. I hope this conversation brought you something meaningful, whether it's a new way to lead through complexity, a reminder of the power of connection, or simply the comfort of knowing you're not navigating leadership alone. If you found value in today's episode, I'd be grateful if you'd share it with a colleague, a leader in your circle, or someone who could benefit from the insights we explored. The more leaders we bring into this dialogue, the more positive change we can create. And if you have a story of disconnection, reconnection, or breakthrough that you think would help others, I'd love to hear from you. Reach out, tell me a bit about your journey, and let's explore whether it could be a fit for a future episode. This episode of Dialing In was produced by Michael Osborne of 14th Street Studios, edited by Talia Anilli, and mixed by Morgan Honeker. Until next time, keep dialing in one moment of connection at a time.