When the Role Changes: How to Turn Setbacks into Stronger Leadership w/ Casey Jacox

Have you ever had a setback that challenged not just what you do—but who you are?

In this episode, Jule sits down with Casey Jacox—sales & leadership expert, keynote speaker, author of Win the Relationship, Not the Deal, and host of the Quarterback DadCast.

Casey shares a defining moment from his teenage years that challenged his sense of identity and changed the path he thought he was on. What followed taught him lasting lessons about vulnerability, resilience, and how to find purpose when circumstances unexpectedly change.

For leaders facing setbacks, unexpected challenges, or moments that force them to adapt, Casey's story is a reminder that growth often begins when things don't go according to plan.

In this conversation, Casey and Jule discuss:

• Why vulnerability and asking for help are often the first steps toward growth as a leader
• How adversity can reveal purpose, resilience, and new ways to contribute
• The role curiosity plays in building stronger relationships and more effective teams
• Why great leaders ask thoughtful questions instead of rushing to provide answers
• How slowing down creates space for trust, clarity, and better decision-making
• Why focusing on people and relationships leads to stronger long-term results

If you're navigating change, leading through uncertainty, or looking to strengthen your impact as a leader, this episode will remind you that some of the most meaningful leadership lessons emerge from the challenges we never saw coming.

Because leadership isn't defined by a title or a role.

It's defined by how we respond when circumstances change.

Connect with Casey:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseyjacox/
Website: https://caseyjacox.com/

Connect with Jule:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julesalem/
Website: www.julesalem.com

Dialing In is a leadership podcast for operators, executives, and founders building under pressure. Each episode explores how connection—when it’s intentional—becomes a true performance advantage.

Join us and subscribe to the show to be the first to hear new episodes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Connection to me is when everybody can be their authentic self. I mean true authentic self. When we don't allow the phrase fake it to make it to enter the workforce, because when we fake it to make it, then we can't be our authentic self, my personal opinion. Connection means that we're gonna have grace for people, we're gonna have grace for ourselves. I think the foundational values of celebrating humility, vulnerability, and curiosity. I think when those three skills are present, authenticity shines, ego goes away, fear goes away, and we can be ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Welcome to Dialing In. I'm your host, Jules Salem, and this is the podcast where we talk about the real work of leadership. Not just the wins, but the moments that force us to grow, recalibrate, and reconnect. Before we jump into today's conversation, I want you to think about this. What happens when the role you thought you were meant to play suddenly changes? Not because you stopped caring, not because you stopped working hard, but because life, leadership, or circumstance forced you to see yourself differently. In this episode, I'm joined by Casey Jacobs, a top executive sales and leadership coach and keynote speaker. He's also an author and podcaster, having written Win the Relationship, Not the Deal, and host of the Quarterback Dadcast. Casey and I start our conversation with a story from early in his life that shaped the way he thinks about leadership, resilience, humility, and vulnerability. And what I appreciated most is that Casey does not speak about these topics in theory. He makes them incredibly practical. Let's dial in.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So just to be brilliant, everybody, I'm the ripe-old age of 50. And this moment that happened to me, I was 17 years old. And I think about this often. I even think about it more because of what my daughter's going through right now with an injury she just had in high school. But set the stage. So I was 17 years old. It was my first really big chance to compete in high school football, to compete for the starting quarterback job. And my high school football coach did a really good job of teaching visualization, goal setting, mindset, a lot of the work I was building and doing later in life that didn't really realize I was doing, maybe unconsciously I was doing. So that first, I guess, real intense moment of competition, I was lucky enough. I won the quarterback job or junior year, worked my tail off from lifting multiple times a day, lifting weights multiple times a day, throwing whoever would catch the football, just squeezed every ounce of athletic ability out of me. So doing the work. Doing the work, 100%. Fundamentals matter. So start my junior year. Things are going pretty well. We had an okay year that year and started to get a little bit of recruiting interest, but nothing really. My teammate was a really good running back, and he had the chance to go to this camp at University of Washington. He goes, Hey, do you want to go with me? I said, sure, I'll go with you. And so I go and I'm thinking this might be fun. Surround myself around like some true Division I athletes, see how I'd compete. Well, being around that talent brought another level out of me. And at the end of this camp, they're handing out all these awards, and I didn't think I was just a typical naive 17-year-old kid, and I'm looking around, like, I wonder who's going to win this thing. And they get ready to announce the most valuable quarterback of the camp and they say my name. I'm like, wait, what? I was totally surprised. So now all of a sudden I go from not being recruited to now I'm getting recruited by them, like, oh my God, this is crazy. And coaches are like, hey, you're under the radar. What we saw here does not match what we saw in film. It's now our senior year, and we are primed for the best year of our life. We're primed to go deep in the playoffs, set the story. Best senior year ever. Well, we have this thing in Seattle called Jamboree's. And so Jamboree is like a practice game, small little miniature games before the season really starts. We played these two practice games where things were great. The last game, I get put back in. For some reason, I thought I'm done for the day, and I get put back in. And the last play of the Jamboree, I would take the snap from the center underneath as a quarterback. The snap was a little slower because it was like one of our, called it our JV line, but I got put back in for some reason. The nose tackle, which is the person right in front of the center, kind of shot the gap in between the guard and the center, and his knee came down on my foot, so I couldn't move. I was stuck. And then, so as I'm trying to pull my foot out from this guy's knee, stuff's happened around me. The guy from the right defensive end came around and hit me from the back. Felt like the tongue of my shoe flew off.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And I was like, something did not feel right. And the shock immediately stead in. I stood up. I tried to walk, took a step, collapsed. I'm like, uh-oh, this is not good. Didn't really go into too much pain because of the shock. A couple hours later, our trainer's like, I think you're gonna be fine. You should be back, you know, whatever. And then pain started kicking in. And so I now all of a sudden I feel emotion starting to come out, like I'm starting to really worry. And I told my mom, hey, I need to get to the doctor. So they take me to the emergency room, they do x-rays, doctor comes out, he goes, Hey, you really broke the unuwe out of that thing. We got to get you in surgery here in a couple hours. Senior year done. So the gentleman who I beat out my junior year, as I told later in the story, he was gonna play tight end for us that year. He would now get thrust in to play quarterback. Jewel, the world moves on. And this guy's name was Shane. Shane would take us to the playoffs for the first time in 20 years. Shane would break our single season passing yardage record, and Shane would be named second team all-league quarterback, and I was a captain and I had to watch. Now, for the first three games of the year, all I was thinking was, I hope he sucks. I hope we lose. I hope the team is so sad without me. I mean, it's just selfish, immature thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Coming from a place of I want to feel like I'm important.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Belonging. I lack belonging. Now it wasn't to no one's fault. They just moved on. And something inside me clicked. This is where I really truly understood what being curious, humble, and vulnerable meant as at the later stage in life. And so I remember going to my high school football coach, Marty Osborne, and I remember walking in there and I said, Coach, I need help. He's like, Why? What's going on? He's like, I'm the thoughts in my head are the worst thoughts ever. I'm not a captain, I'm not a leader. I'm hoping Shane does bad. I hope you guys stink. I hope the world, this is just not fun. He's like, Man, I'm so proud of you. I go, how could you be proud of what I just told you? You'd be, I thought you'd be mad at me. He goes, No, what you're realizing, this is what vulnerability is about. It's being honest with your emotions. It's asking for help. It's realizing that sometimes you got to have someone else pull you over the wall to get to the other side. And so he's like, we're gonna find a role for you. I go, coach, how there's no role for me. I have a cast on, I can't walk, I can't, nothing for me to do. He goes, J.Cock, you know this offense better than I do. Why don't you go up in the booth, get a headset on, be my offense coordinator? You know you know this offense almost as better than I do. I go, I do. He instilled belief in me. Hence the word behind me. Yes. Now, again, one of the things I learned as a leader, when you instill belief in people, they can accomplish more than they think. So all that negative energy back to the high school story, it's gone. It's like a vacuum sucked it out. So now I have purpose, I had clarity. I was a captain again. I wasn't selfish about what I couldn't achieve because now I knew I could make an impact. Now my job was, well, I know I can't play, but I could be the best quarterback coach possible for Shane. I think about that often. That story hit multiple times in business where you have when huge projects have to lay a bunch of consultants off because the client lost funding. You'd ramp back up again, you'd ramp back down. I just I learned to stay right at cruise altitude, not get too high, not get too low, and just realize there might be some bumpy air from time to time. But if you have the right fundamentals, you have the right values of how your mind's trained, you can get through anything. Someone said adversity is life's golden ticket, and I couldn't agree more. It's and you said blessed earlier. I agree with you too, Jewel. Like it that didn't happen to me, happened for me to prep me for later in life.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And maybe it happened happened for me now because my daughter, as I mentioned briefly in the intro, she tore her ACL.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, how ironic. Yeah. Poor thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Or serendipitous.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

She tore her ACL, her senior year's done. But I I know what she I know what she's going through because I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Right. So, but going back to your moment when you decided to come forward to your coach about this. Did you have any reservations about if I share this, what is he gonna think about me?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Or no, mainly because I was in such a dark place. I'm like, it couldn't get worse.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

So you just had to get it out.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

I had to get it out. And maybe I was wise beyond my ears at the time. Maybe I was just typical naive. I don't know what gave me the confidence to do it, but I just like I had to go do it. It's funny, I I think later in life, at the end of my corporate career, there was a time where we won a huge project, then we end up losing it. And this is one of the first times I actually worked for a leader younger than me, which required a lot of vulnerability and a lot of me checking my ego. But I remember going to him and I'm like, man, I'm kind of stressing about this because it was gonna impact a lot of people. And I was worried about obviously our stock price. I was worried about how it would impact people. And some people were banking for like, once we win all this revenue, we're gonna do A, B, and C with it. And that that was all gonna go away. And I remember just telling him how I'm feeling it. And he I remember he just said, dude, it's not your fault. It's not like you woke up to say, hey, we want a client to lose all the money. You'll get us through this, man. And it's funny that gentleman, I actually ended up speaking at his company earlier this year. So it's fast forward the story. He's now CEO at a different company now, but we told that story. So I think again, sometimes this stuff is seems simple in theory when you think about it, but in the time it's really, really hard, it's messy. We're all flawed humans, it's emotion. But that's why I just encourage people that I work with my coaching practices get really clear with your values. And when you're really, really clear with your values, it's your decision making is I think a lot more spot on because you're making decisions based on values. And for me, like those experiences I shared, Julie. I mean, it just gives me goosebumps thinking about it still to this day.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

I can only imagine. So this humility, vulnerability, and curiosity. One of the questions I wanted to talk through with you, because I think from my own experience, a lot of times when we say, Oh, take a genuine interest in other people, that comes across as, oh, that's a certain personality trait, right? And I know one of the things in my own business that's really important to me is this idea of connection in the workplace and being able to foster it across the organization. But a question that I I continue to come back to is how do we create that genuine curiosity in others, right? Without there being an ulterior motive or a strategy perhaps behind it. I'm interested to get your take on that from your own experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

So when I was 41, I was always curious, but my when I was 41, my curiosity went to like the moon, rocket fuel type curiosity. And this leader asked me a question, he goes, Do you believe what you do matters? And I said, Yeah, I do. He goes, So you you believe that any question you ask, it's because you believe it'll help someone else. I go, 100%. He goes, Would you ever ask somebody a question where you win and they lose? I go, No, I never would do that. He goes, This is what value-based selling is about. When you truly are asking about something, because you either believe you can help them because you've helped another client, or you truly care about them. Or even if you can't help them, you're still going to be curious to maybe connect them with someone else. For me, what separates great leaders or great salespeople is the second, third, fourth level question.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Most people ask a question, they turn into like a cat, they sniff catnip and they pounce from the couch to the toy. What I teach and what I believe is using what I call TED-based questions, which stands for tell me, explain, describe. Hopefully, people are taking notes, a very actionable thing you can take. Specifically as parents with kids who are in junior high and high school, you will get them to talk. So you might ask you a question, and then once they answer you, or you might say, Tell me more about that. Describe whether that's important to you. You have to show that you genuinely are curious. It's great eye contact, it's your tone. It's not asking two or three questions inside of one question, is creating space for someone to answer these questions that you ask. I've seen these skills work for years.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, I totally agree with your philosophy on that. Maybe a different way to go about the question is, because yes, we can train people and say, this is how you should be asking questions to help foster a relationship. From you taking that approach, what would you say you have gained through that? How does that add value to you as a person to help motivate and incentivize others to want to do the same?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yep. I would say instead of telling people to ask questions, I think the people have to practice asking these questions. You can get better at curiosity by practicing. So if we're clear on maybe the problems that our company solves, if we're clear on how do we help people, if we're clear with the stories of how we've helped, practice them. Practice, practicing asking questions that might bring those stories out in a conversation. And if you don't know how, ask one of your teammates for help, ask your leader for help. I think how is it added value for me? I get my time back.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Your time back. Ooh, tell me more there.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Good TED-based question, Joel. I always say, elite sellers, we want to spend time with the the right people at the right time. If I've ever tried to convince myself that a customer really needs me, but they don't, and I'm gonna just try to keep convincing them and they won't, that's my ego. But when I'm curious, I have a sales process I follow called Medic, which is a way to kind of really decipher if a deal does it meet qualifications for us to spend time and resources on. If I'm not asking enough questions, then that's risk. I'm giving myself permission to have poor qualification, poor deals in my pipeline. I don't want to do that. I want to spend time with people who have a need, have a problem, or in my ideal customer profile. I know I can help them because I've helped other people. And even if you're new, you still can get good at this because you can learn from your more senior people that have already had this experience. And if they don't know, ask this is where again being curious can pull a lot of these stories out. So for me, it's time, but also just relationships. That's why I wrote the book, Win the Relationship, Matthew. I want to win people.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I've got it here.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

There we go. Thank you very much. I want to win time first, then people second. If I'm winning those two things, I really increase my chance to win revenue. I mean, if it's meant to be, if I'm truly meant to help somebody, like if I was selling you something, you're gonna close yourself that I'm the right fit, not me.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

That might be naive again, but the ripe old age of 50, it's worked.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

I know you describe even in your book about one example you gave that it had taken five years to land the meeting. And I think really helps exemplify going about it for the purpose of the relationship and wanting to be genuinely helpful versus how can I just make myself persistent and perhaps win a meeting when they're not really ready for me.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah. I mean, that example was, you know, her name's Nadine, and I still have a relationship with her to this day, and I've I haven't worked at that company in six years, seven years almost. She was the vice president, I was working with people underneath her, and she wouldn't take a meeting, she wouldn't take me. But then once I asked questions in the right way or told the story in the right way that, hey, Nadine, I'd love a chance to introduce myself to you to make sure you're aware of the problems that we're solving for your organization. I think the people that work for you are doing a fantastic job. I highlighted their names in the meeting, made it all about them, which is essentially hopefully was tugging at her ego because it was written the right way, but it was value-based for her. It was more me just wanting to serve versus me not trying to sell her anything. She said yes, and I was like, oh my God. And this is where I kind of learned some of these skills that later in my career. I'm like, it worked. Now once I had that feeling of uh it worked, then I wanted to replicate it versus just winging it, trying something like, hope it works. It was very specific, but I had to be long-term. And I knew deep down, because I believe what I do matters, I know I can help her. I know that because how we're helping her team, we can help her. I just had to stay patient, continue to meet her where she's at, and believe that in time she'll eventually want to meet with me.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Sure. I think you just touched on something so critical, which is making it about other people and not yourself. And I know that's something even anytime I'm reaching out to a client, I always try to put that hat on of like, wait, is this about me or is it about them? I have found from my own work, if we just take those moments to pause and be like, well, okay, how am I really directing this? Because of making it about others, I have found results in such a more favorable response.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Can I share a question that will really help people, hopefully listening right now, accomplish that?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Please do.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

When I first learned this question, there's this voice in my head, which is also called my ego, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

We all have it.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

The voice is like, Man, you can't ask this question that way. It doesn't sound like you. And I'm like, Yeah, you're right. I just let that devil on my shoulder keep talking to me. This angel's like, yeah, but check your ego, bro. Just try it out. I'm like, I don't want to try it out. It's back and forth. But the gentleman who taught me this question was a gazillionaire, if that's even a real fiduciary amount. But he was super successful, but super humble in the type of person I really wanted to surround myself with. And so he taught me this question, which is when you start a meeting, common sellers, if I'm role-playing this, hey Jewel, I'm excited to talk to you about sales and leadership work and how I can help you coach and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That's all about me.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And what he taught is, which is now what I teach, is Jewel, thank you for your time today. I know we spoke a few days ago. Everybody, this is we're gonna take notes. I'll start the role play again. Thank you for your time today. Before we get started, describe what would make today a successful outcome for you in the 30 minutes we have today. So out of the gate, I'm asking, hey, you took the meeting for a reason. Why would you like to meet with me? And they might say, Well, two things are gonna happen. They would say, Why I haven't heard that before. I'd like to learn more about A and B. Now, the common approach now is to start either selling, or the uncommon approach is to say, Great, tell me why. Great, tell me more why that would be great for us to accomplish today. And I've yet to have anybody at home say, Screw you, Casey, I don't want to keep talking about me and my problems. Because I show a genuine interest, they will talk. Now, for the person at home that's listening that might say, Well, yeah, Casey, it's easy to say, but what happens if the client says, Yeah, but you've been calling me for four months. Tell me everything you can. That's when I would then say, You're right, I have called you. But you gave me 30 minutes and I have about two weeks of content I could deliver, which means I'd be guessing and probably wasting your time. I'm sure you didn't take this meeting just for a free cup of coffee or for fun. Tell me what would be one thing that would be good for us to accomplish today. Well, tell me all about that. Okay, well, how about instead of me telling you all about that, maybe I don't want to ask you a few more questions? Based on what you know about ABC Company, just tell me two things you think we do and two things we don't do. I'm just using curiosity to get the conversation started to then carry it on. But the number of times, back to this question, I'm gonna say again and hope people took notes, is describe what would make today a successful outcome for you in the 30 to 45 minutes we have today. That's a staple for me now. I teach it, I do it myself because I don't want to guess what you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Right. And then they're helping give you the roadmap for what they want to accomplish from meeting with you.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah, I'm not a mind reader. I mean, I don't know, maybe if so there's other people that are mind readers, I don't have that skill yet.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

That's also I'll piggyback and say that's also a great closing interview question I often recommend to candidates is you know, okay, I land the job. What does success look like in 30, 60, 90 days? What should I be up to speed on? Because again, they're helping tell you what their expectation is.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Even an even more simplistic way, I used to ask that when I was in staffing consulting, I would say, describe how you're gonna measure consultant he or she's success. Tell me how will they know? How will you know? How will everybody else in your team know? Trying to get ahead of any potential curveball that might derail b because we are f humans. There's emotions and we're all flawed, but to try to take all that risk out using curiosity to make sure that we're always thinking versus well, because she's nice. Just because you're nice doesn't mean you're gonna have a good project.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Or he, you know, we've got to get specific. So I love that you asked that.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, what do I actually need to be accomplishing? Well, this is kind of a good segue off that point. I wanted to chat with you about vulnerability and specifically vulnerability in leadership. I had the opportunity to hear you speak at Tempnet recently, and one of my takeaways was that was one of the resounding themes, and I know something that you describe in your book, too. I get it, yes, we have to be sharing of ourselves, and vulnerability leads to creating authentic relationships. But one question that's been on my mind since hearing your presentation, which quick side note, one of the things I loved about your presentation is that you also make it practical, very relatable, and also have breakout work, right? So that you're able to actually put it in practice in the moment. But one of the questions that I've been pondering is, and a question I come back to for myself, is as a leader, how vulnerable does my team really want me to be? Obviously, I'm not meaning like, oh yeah, we're sharing all of our dirty secrets. But the reality is, you know, as leaders, we're constantly facing things too, right? I know I talk to a lot of leaders these days who are struggling in business, right? Times are more challenging. Challenging, or even in my own life, helping a spouse who's going through a health circumstance. So I know I feel like I'm always trying to balance because I think myself as a case study, I maybe take the making it about other people to an extreme and wonder where are those moments where it's helpful to share more about myself and what's going on in my world?

SPEAKER_00 22:31

It's a good question. All roads are leading back to curiosity, Joel.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So what I we what I teach and I work with leaders on now when we're trying to work on vulnerability is ask a question before we get vulnerable. So for example, let's say that I was working with you and your team and we worked together. I might say, and I was a leader, let's say, tell me, would it be helpful if I shared a quick story team where I was really scared when this moment hit me in my early part of my career? Or tell me, would it be helpful team if I shared a story where I really struggled and I actually got hung up on early in my career? Because as leaders, when we can lead like that, you remove fear. And you have might have the confidence. Now, some leaders might be fearful of that's because they don't want to throw themselves under the bus. I would challenge you, why not? There's probably deeper issues going on around ego, I would think, if they don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Touche.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

But when we share these stories, you're leading by example. You're showing your team that, hey, you can get better. You're not afraid to say what you don't know. When we're vulnerable, even when someone wants to ask a question, do we give them the answer or do we ask a question back? Another way to be vulnerable and humble, to encourage them to give the response versus you being always the smartest in the room, which is what we don't want to do as leaders. We want to create the smartest room. Brene Brown, for those that don't know, has one of the most downloaded TED Talks of all time. She's like the the queen of vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And shame.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah. They're superpowers. I don't know if you remember the story I shared with a client that I when I talked about vulnerability when my dad was dying. Just real quick, I'll say for everybody. I had a client I was working with, CEO was really trying to work on her vulnerability with the team. Two weeks before my dad's gonna pass away, this is back. My dad died December 29, 2021. So this would have been like early December. And this client goes, Casey, how are you doing today? And I said, Good. Which I was lying to her. I wasn't telling the truth because I didn't want to be vulnerable enough to share, hey, it might be a tough day. And then at the minute 47, Mark, something clicked. I remember I stopped, I looked at her on Zoom, I said, Can you ask me how I'm doing again? And I I lied to you, and she's like, What are you talking about? And I told her, and she asked me, goes, How are you doing, Casey? I go, I'm doing awful. She's like, What? I'm confused. My dad is dying, and I should have, I'm teaching you vulnerability, but I'm not being vulnerable. And that doesn't make sense. We would go on to have this amazing two-hour conversation serendipitously. My had two meetings got canceled right after I did that. I thought that was kind of eerie. She had meetings get canceled. Our connection, I'm still now super close with her. I don't work with her anymore, but I'm friends with her. We're on Facebook together. We she knows about my kids because I was vulnerable, wasn't afraid to share. And I think when you have the confidence to go first, someone's gonna go first. Why not you? I've had people too strongly disagree with me, and that's okay. I don't want to be right. I want to get what I want.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

What is their reason for disagreeing with you?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I think it's ego. It's funny, one of my friends I work with too is shout out to Chris Mader. Chris talked about the study. I think 97.5% of people resist change when they first are dealt with it. So one thing that's constant is change. This might be a change in behavior, change the way they deal with things. But if there's stories of how it's helped, why not try it? Like when I was learning all these skills, I was the number one rep at a company called Kforce for years. I could have easily said, no, I'm good. I don't need to learn all this stuff. I'm fine. But I love learning and I love realizing that if I can get a little bit better, great. If I can be a better husband this week than last week, I bet my wife sure wants me to be that. If I can be a better dad this week, why not learn?

unknown 26:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Which requires us to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Getting continuously better and developing ourselves. Okay, Casey, I'm gonna give this a try. Cause I do. I I love making it about other people, learning about them, what their challenges are, so that I can help in solving that. And I think sometimes I I do have this line of thinking that most other people want it to be about them. So I need to work on incorporating my own.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

I would practice the skill of asking a question before you tell a story.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Almost like asking for permission. See, even when you described that though, the first thought that pops in my head is well, people will be polite and say yes. Who's gonna answer that question and be like, no, Jewel? I don't I don't want to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Permission to coach?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

I think that's a story you're telling yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Okay. Well, touche.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

We as humans, I learned this in like my first year in on entrepreneurship. I was around some neuroscience folks. I don't know. You might remember this from my presentation. We have number of thoughts on average a day. Some science says between 80 and 90,000 thoughts a day. Of those 80 to 90,000 thoughts, 75 to 85% are negative.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

That is true. Yeah. I've heard that.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I mean, think about what we're talking about. I backed that setup earlier when I said, I don't want to ask this question. It's gonna be different. It might not sound like me. But when we practice these skills, you get a different outcome based on what you think is gonna happen. It's not as hard as it we once thought. It just takes a little bit of confidence. I always tell people we can get uncomfortable inside the game or we can be comfortable on the sidelines and never try it.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Very true.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

And someone, again, what gave me the confidence to try these skills, Jewel, is because someone did it before me, and this gentleman was really, really successful. And then I saw Brene Brown talk about it. I was like, ooh, that's a sign. Maybe I'll keep trying this. But I don't want to convince you, you gotta convince yourself to try these things.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Nope. I hear ya. All right, I'm gonna put it out there.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Good questions, though.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

The other question I wanted to ask you, you know, obviously you work with and coach a lot of leaders. And so I was interested to hear what are you seeing these days as the most common themes that leaders are struggling with?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Slowing down. They don't slow down enough. Perfect example is their team comes, ask them a question, they give them the answer. Versus slowing down to ask a question back, using curiosity to help build critical thinking skills. I see leaders struggle with like productive one-on-ones. I did a post recently about this where I work with leaders on if you have set expectations with your team that the one-on-ones are their one-on-ones, not yours. Set expectations with them that if they don't come prepared with like a success, a challenge, a goal, and they're not prepared to talk about any of that stuff, the one-on-one will be canceled. Now that might sound a little, geez, that's a little harsh. We are what we allow.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Sounds like you're shifting ownership of the one-on-one.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

100%. Yeah, it's not your one-on-one, it's theirs. When I learned that, I was scared to try it when I started doing it, believing it, and leading with like, hey, I this is where I was also vulnerable. I said, maybe I haven't done this the right way. That's on me. So going forward, we're gonna do a new way to draft one on one so you get more value out of it, since I didn't do a good job. Going forward, here's my expectation. Are we in agreement? So asking for the agreement, now there's accountability. That person's invested. And then the last thing I'd say what I see leaders focus on is not having, I think, a clear understanding, maybe this is more sales leadership perspective, a clear understanding of do we truly understand why we exist? What do we do? How do we do it differently or better? And then does my team know how to answer that? So our messaging is not aligned. So there's two tracks there, but the third track, the most important track, is does your customer know how to say those same things? So slowing leaders down to really make sure that they're clear, because unfortunately, like I learned this the hard way, our clients forget what we do. They're not studying our marketing material, reading their kids' bedtime stories all about your company. They're not taking their husband or wife out to date night and reading all about your company. They're forgetting what we do. Sure. And it's our it's our job to ask questions. So I think long-white answer, helping leaders slow down and then giving themselves grace that hey, when no one's perfect, but we can say curious, humble enough to get better, vulnerable enough to ask for help. And then I think when that takes hold, it creates a flywheel.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Okay. Yeah. What you were just describing too, uh particularly on why we're doing what we're doing, I know that's something I have to remind myself of, not for myself per se, but making sure that the team continues to be aligned behind that. I know in my own organization, sometimes that can be taken for granted. Like, oh, everyone knows what we're doing and what we're trying to accomplish. But what do they say? The positives versus the negatives. But you know, people need to hear it seven, eight times before it really starts to set in. But that's one of those things like you were talking about, the flywheel. You have to keep resonating and repeating rather, you know, what the goal is.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

They people forget. Like I think of when you said that story, Joey, you remind me to my days when I was leading a one of our largest accounts when I was in the staff and consulting industry and our recruiting team, they would ask me questions like the same question numerous times, and I'm like, We've worked in this. How do you not remember? Then I had to just change, maybe they're just not learning the way I'm teaching them. So then I used curiosity, I was like, hey, I know we've talked about this, but I obviously am not doing it the right way. Let's slow down. What can I do differently to make this stick so that you don't keep asking the same question? Because I'm obviously not teaching in the right way. I had to slow down to help meet them where they are and realizing that everybody doesn't work at your pace as leaders. And again, we don't slow down. We got to remember that part of our hiring process, at least most companies I've worked with, they're looking for mind readers. You know, so like if you're not gonna slow down and assume people are reading your mind, that's on you as a leader, not your team.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah. And making sure that you're tailoring it to how they can best receive it to take action. So I want to circle back to the story that you shared in having your high school injury and being vulnerable and going to your coach and then identifying that you had a role in the game, even though it wasn't directly playing. So when you look back on that experience, what would you say was the biggest takeaway that has stayed with you that you've carried to where you are today?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

I would say always ask for help. Always ask for help. You can always can learn something. And the other thing I learned is that what we do doesn't always define us. When I left high school injury, I was lucky enough to play in college. When I got done with college, the world moved on. 20 years at K Force, very proud. I was a number one rep, 10 straight years nationally, very successful career, way more than I ever thought. When I left, they didn't go out of business. When you dial 911, my phone doesn't ring. It taught me that if we're not clear with our values, then we can sometimes tie ourselves to things that aren't really important. I'm present in who I am and I work on myself all the time. Whether it's reading a daily stoic, whether it's doing gratitude work, daily scripture work, there's things I do to stay grounded in those thoughts. So that injury made me just continue to realize that bad stuff's gonna happen in life. But how I react and how I respond and the things I do to go through it can make me get out of it quicker than people that I just want to freak out and blame others and make excuses versus what role do I have in this and how can I take ownership of either getting better, getting healthier, changing my habits, fixing this, fixing that, whatever it may be. But it's funny, with that question, Jewel, I also it helped me when as an interviewer, and I usually teach just to my clients and I work with, I always tell them ask people what was their biggest moment of adversity in their life, and how will you use that moment to get you through tough times in this job?

SPEAKER_01 34:12

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

And so, like in most jobs, that first year they're they're hard. And if they haven't, if someone's not done hard stuff or gone through adversity or doesn't have grit, well then they could struggle. Let's prepare them for the right mindset with proper expectations so they can be set up for success. And I think for me, that injury, I think about it often. And I think now my unfortunately my daughters make me think about it more often than not because she's going through it too right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah. What I'm hearing you describe is really the quality of resilience. And I know the unfortunate part about that is you have to go through the hard times to discover your resilience. And then the second part that I heard was what we do does not define us as a person. Really staying true to our values and who we are as people, not necessarily what our job or because as you described, those will change in life.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, and I mean, if you're not clear in your values, then I think what happens is you can get stuck in these loops sometimes that we either become the hero or the victim, whatever moment we're in, externally or internally. And I just don't like getting stuck in those loops. I go back to how can I be the most humble, vulnerable, and curious version of myself at all times? I'm not perfect. I mess up on this stuff all the time, but at least I'm really clear. Those are the things for me that I want to continue to work at.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Love it. Yeah, it's definitely a continued practice. I can say that from my own experience.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

So a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Well, Casey, thank you so much for being here today. Before we close out, in case people are interested in learning more about you, your book, When the Relationship, Not the Deal, and also your podcast and the leadership work that you're doing, where's the best place for them to find you?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Thank you for asking. I'm super active on LinkedIn, so you can just find me there, Casey to C-A-S E Y, J A C O X. There's not too many of those out there. My book is on Amazon. It's in Kindle, paperback, and Audible. I narrated it myself, which was a very fun experience to go through years ago. And then if you want to just learn more about the work I do, I check out my website, which is caseyjaycox.com. But I do run a podcast. It's called Quarterback Dadcast. Every Thursday, episodes come out. We're at episode 350 as of May 14th this week. It's in season seven, and I'm on the quest to interview a thousand dads.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Kudos. That's awesome. You'll get there. Casey, thank you so much again and enjoyed having you with us today.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

It was an honor spending time with you, Jill. Great job.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to dialing in. I hope this conversation brought you something meaningful. Whether it's a new way to lead through complexity, a reminder of the power of connection, or simply the comfort of knowing you're not navigating leadership alone. If you found value in today's episode, I'd be grateful if you'd share it with a colleague, a leader in your circle, or someone who could benefit from the insights we explored. The more leaders we bring into this dialogue, the more positive change we can create. And if you have a story of disconnection, reconnection, or breakthrough that you think would help others, I'd love to hear from you. Reach out, tell me a bit about your journey, and let's explore whether I could be a fit for a future episode. This episode of Dialing In was produced by Michael Osborne of 14th Street Studios, edited by Talia Anili, and mixed by Morgan Honaker. Until next time, keep dialing in one moment of connection at a time.