Learning to Climb New Mountains

In this episode of UNLOADED, Michael and Shannon dive into the lifelong process of growth, learning, and becoming comfortable with failure.

What starts as a conversation about building a custom timekeeping app quickly turns into a deeper discussion about self-development, overcoming limitations, and the courage it takes to keep learning new things—even when you're not sure you'll succeed.

Michael shares his journey from struggling academically as a young man to discovering a passion for learning, leadership, and problem-solving. Together, they explore the difference between healthy fear and limiting fear, why failure is often the greatest teacher, and how personal growth can sometimes make other people uncomfortable.

Whether you're starting a new career, learning a new skill, rebuilding your life, or simply trying to become a better version of yourself, this conversation is a reminder that growth rarely happens inside your comfort zone.

In this episode:

•  Learning new skills later in life 
•  Building confidence through failure 
•  Why growth attracts resistance 
•  The difference between fear and caution 
•  Trusting your instincts 
•  Becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable 
•  Taking the next step, one step at a time 

"The mountain doesn't get smaller. You just become stronger climbing it."

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I would like to welcome everybody back to our podcast, Unloaded. This is Michael Seahorn. Shannon Morrow. And we are glad to be back. So last episode, uh, Shannon helped us out and he took the lead on the on the last recording, which was uh it was a good change, man. It was exciting. It was we it was different sitting here. I felt like I was able to really be a little bit more immersed in in listening because I wasn't worried about leading. So it was a that was a good change, man. Yeah. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Yeah, and I felt more what you often feel, you know, just uh being in the lead a little bit more, doing the majority of the talking, a little bit more of that responsibility, you know, and so it was cool to have that each of us have that different experience.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah, that's good, man. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Well, what what do you wanna what do you want to roll with today? Well, it's cool. Just before we hit record, just literally about 120 seconds to go, Michael and I, as we do, we got in a conversation just as you know, two old buddies, and like, hey, how's this going? What's going on with that? And what really? Whoa, cool. And he starts explaining some stuff to me, and I start asking some questions, and it starts getting really good as our conversations often do. I'm like, well, whoa, man, we should have hit record on this one because there's so many like times like, dude, this would make for a great episode. Wow, that would have made for a great episode, we keep staying. And so we decided, hey, let's just hit record. Like, we got to do this other episode anyway, and so let's keep with this momentum. And uh toward your question, what do you want to talk about? You are just telling me that you're really enjoying learning now. And oh my, I've watched Michael learn how to do so many things. This guy has to be learning something new. If it's not building a computer or figuring out day trading, or painting seracotes on firearms, or the list goes on and on. His bitchin' pickup truck out there, like yeah, it just it's yeah, but Michael is very engaged in growth, in wanting to learn new things and um pushing himself, and it's it's quite fascinating just to witness it as I have through the years, and he was just telling me now he's learning how to build an app an app. He's he's already figured out he's good at building websites, he's good with a lot of the tech stuff, but now he's like, What? You you can build an app?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, it's it was crazy. So we we were having an issue at the company I that I'm a vice president for, we were at we've we've always had some issues with with timekeeping, just timesheets in general. And it's uh you know, we're not talking about you just you you walk in, clock in at eight, clock out at five, and you go home. You know, in in the industry that I'm in in the construction world is it is a lot more in-depth. There's a lot more that goes into timekeeping. And I have, and this is not an exaggeration, over the last probably good five years, I have I have had countless Teams meetings, uh, Zoom meetings with software providers out there that's supposed to provide the end all be all timekeeping software. And you know, I I offer them my half an hour of my time and go through the pitch and all that stuff, and without fail, it just never worked out. So uh one of my staff members came to me and they were just frustrated because we're using these Excel spreadsheets on Apple, it's a different iOS than Microsoft Excel, and we're you know, we're using a file sharing platform called Dropbox, and there's just too many things going on, man. It's always an effing pain in the butt. So I finally was just like, you know what? I know what we need. I know exactly what we need, so I'm just gonna freaking build it.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yep, that's what you do.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

So so uh so that got me onto the uh world of app building, and there are so many amazing platforms out there right now that are uh assisting me in that development process to not only speed it up, but to really help just be the check and balance, if you will. Uh and for the listening audience, if you if I think we've might have mentioned this before. My my education and degree is in information technology, so um it's been a passion of mine for a long time. So I like techie stuff and uh so it fits well with with my personality. But Shannon is right, it's I find a lot of um uh you know, going through the military for so long uh in the US Army I know what I can do physically. I know where I can push to in the physical world, uh I know where my fail point is, I know when I need to pull back a little bit. And that's great, right? And it it continues with you through life. It obviously changes as you hit these 30s and 40s and definitely after 50, but if you did it long enough in the military, you you will always know where that threshold is for your body. I find this more enjoyment out of the intellectual tiredness that I get from learning. That's where I get like you know, when I'm learning to build an app, it's exciting, it's new. It's like, okay, what's step one? Then you go to step two. And as I progress through that, man, it's just this mountain of stuff that's just coming in from me, right? And you're you're like, oh wow, I didn't know you could do that, oh wow, I didn't know you could do this. There's an AI software out there that'll you know write all this out for me. You know, I just have to give it the data, I gotta give it the intel, and it'll help me sort the data, sort the intel, and put it all where it needs to go. And so it's speeding up that process, right? But at the end of the day, you know, when I when I leave and I started with just a thought, and then I turn that thought into a practical application, and then I take a theoretical idea, and now I have a um, you know, now I have a version one of our development app so I can actually physically see it on a laptop or or an iPad or whatever, the your phone. It's just very satisfying to see that progression.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

You like climbing the mountains.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

I do, you know, yeah, you know that. I love climbing mountains. But somebody once told me long ago, you gotta stop once in a while and turn around. Enjoy the view, right? So I've learned that even in my ability to learn something new, I'm not just charging straight up the hill anymore. You know what I mean? I'm stopping and just enjoying this moment. You know, once I got through all the technical writing for the app, I just was like, oh cool. Look at that. There's like 40 pages of technical writing, right, for for a timekeeping app. And then the timekeeping app turned into uh a project management app within the timekeeping app. So it grew as I was developing this uh this app.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

And let me remind the listeners that this is the vice president. And uh I I know he quite a bit about you know his his work um and the amount of responsibility that Mike has, the amount of duties, the amount that he's managing, all his staff, all the stuff going on out in the field, um, all like there's just so much all the financial stuff, all I mean he he's got a good staff, of course, that he's created, and um, but for him, like we led into this before we hit record. He's just like, oh yeah, I've taken over the website now. You know, I just our website person moved away, and I just I decided just I can do it myself. And so I'm like, wait, but what about this and that and that? Because I just I know all his responsibilities on the daily, on the weekly, on the monthly, and his plate just I just as I've visualized it, I it just seems like he has this heaping plate of work responsibility, and he just keeps heaping more on. And as his therapist, I get really concerned. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hey, what, wait, wait, now you're having to do the website too, and wait, wait, wait. You're building an app and 40 pages of technical shit and wait, what? And like, dude, bro, what about all the other shit that's pulling at your attention? I of course, because every, you know, he's during our podcast, he's still managing work stuff. And I'm just like, man, like it's it's not my job to protect him, to not, you know, hey, maybe maybe, you know, but when I see from time to time, when he comes in and just he's he's topped off, man, he's had a huge week, the emails won't quit pouring in, all the little fires that he continues to have to do with personnel issues, just da-da-da-da-da-da. As vice president and the amount of work and responsibility that this man carries, hence this podcast unloaded, right? He like, when I hear about him now learning to build apps, I'm I guess I'm a little bit relieved. Oh yeah, this is fun for you. You are you want to do this, you're choosing to do, you need to be learning new different things. And man, I just pray you have enough time for this. Because if because I'm worried about when you get to that hit that next burnout point when you're ready to I'm out. You know, that's we know a little about Mike. He he's described this in past episodes, you know, like he he's not afraid to bounce. So, you know, keeping it sustainable for him is a little part of my duties as his therapist, you know. But if and he loves he loves learning this this new stuff, if if he's got the time for it.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, it's I appreciate your concern, Shan. I always have. And uh, yeah, they you know, when I when I was offered this uh opportunity to be a vice president, you know, it was a it was a good time in my life. I think I needed this opportunity in the company that I started at. And um I'm very grateful for my ownership. I I couldn't have asked for uh, you know, uh a better pair of owners. It's still family driven, it's still family run. And um, you know, for for somebody to give me the platform that I'm on now and the opportunity that I have, you know, it's it's nothing but gratefulness, man. You know, so like always, and like Shannon's alluding to, is I do have a uh severe tendency to just, you know, as Shannon will tell you, there's no such thing as 110%, but I I I definitely try to exceed that 100% all the time. And you know, it's it's it's crazy to think about the amount of stuff that goes on in a day, but when I see something that has to be fixed or needs to be fixed, and could be improved upon. Or approved. I and I and I I feel like at my level as a vice president, that's that's something that I do on the daily. I'm always refining, I'm always looking at things for like can we do it a little bit quicker? Is there is there a little easier way for my staff to do something better so maybe they can be more productive in doing something else, right? So the timekeeping app just came about, and like I said, I was a sick and tired of because as the VP and as the guy that is the IT guy, you know, that's the default. Just call Mike, right? And that's okay. That that's what they're supposed to do. But like Shannon was leaning to I get to a certain level where I don't have the time to sit on the phone for a half an hour trying to diagnose an iPad that's out in the field, and I'm I'm sitting in the office, you know, 60, 70 miles away. So I think I just got to that point finally where I was just sick and tired of being sick and tired of all the all of the issues that we're continually having, and we've been having them for years. Okay. And then uh, you know, my owner came in uh two weeks ago, and he I'm a big whiteboard guy, so my office will tell you, my staff will tell you, I love the whiteboard still to this day. It's good for me to put my thoughts and stuff on my workflow. Is it multicolored? It is, yeah, of course, cool, man. Of course it is, right? So I'm writing out kind of my workflow that I want the app to be because you gotta have a workflow, right? What you can't just create a random ass app, like it's gotta make some sense. So I whiteboard my workflow and my owner came in, he's like, What do you what are you doing, Mike? I said, Hey, I was like, This is the this is what's going on, so I'm just gonna create an app. And he had the same thing. He looked at me, he's like, What do you mean you're gonna create an app? I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna create an app. I'm gonna create our own timekeeping app, I'm just gonna do it. And he's like, Okay, well, glad you know how to do that. And he turned around and just wrote out, told me, Good luck, have a good weekend, and I appreciate that, you know. But you know, learning um for me personally, because you know, growing up in Baltimore, growing up in in the environment that I was in, growing up in the household that I was in, is I didn't have a good learning in school. It was quite the opposite. And um so really wasn't until probably hmm. Well, I took my first ASVAB when I was 17. Uh, I tried to get into the Air Force and uh this was pretty um loving everybody and everybody's equal. Uh I took the ASVAB pencil and paper, and when I went back to the recruiter, he's like, Man, are you fucking retarded? And I'm like, What? He's like, seriously, man, like you retarded. I'm like, no. He's like, Are you in school? I go, Yeah, I go to this high school, and he's like, uh, well, that explains it. He's like, Yeah, you get no shot at getting the military. Oh, no. Go back to school, dude. Whoa. Yeah, that's how bad it was. You know, they did not care back then, they don't care about your feelings, they didn't care about anything, they just told you the way it was.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Dummy.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah, he's like, you your your English is uh, you know, like third grade level, your your mass a joke, dude. He's like, you need to go go back to school.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

You didn't even score high enough on that as well. No.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

No, no. So I uh defeated as I was, I just cut tail and uh went on with life, right? And didn't even think about that ever again. Tried to forget about it, to be honest with you. Probably wasn't until I was like 20, I think it was 21, I I I went into the police academy in California and um I got a rude awakening, man, quickly uh because it was very uh academically uh high on expectations. You had it you had to cut it 80% on every written test or you'd fail. Then you got one remedial opportunity to pass. If not, you're out.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

So I learned real quick where my shortcomings were. You know, because I I think for the first like four weeks of the police academy, uh we were it was heavy into the law, constitutional law, right? Now, mind you, this is something that I have no idea about because I'm just you know semi-retarded at that point because I didn't I didn't get a high school education like I should have. Uh it was very difficult. Uh I remember being pulled aside by the uh instructor at the time, and uh he took me off into the side office and he's like, Well, here you go, Mike. He says, This is where I'm at. He's like, You failed every single test for the first four weeks. He's like, I don't know if you've got what it takes intellectually. And I go, No, I can do it, man. I can I know I can do it. He's like, Well, listen, you are gonna come in on uh Friday and when everyone's doing lunch, and you're gonna take your four failed tests. If you fail one of them, your day of wanting to be a police officer is over. Bye. So that was a rude awakening for me at a 21-year-old level as a young man, and uh from that day forward, I I just I studied and studied and studied and studied and studied. And for me, I wasn't the guy that would read something and remember it. That that wasn't my forte. I could I could read it 15 times and I just wasn't getting it, man. So I had to start writing shit out all the time. That then it's read, I'd write it out, read it again, write it out. Finally, it started to get a little bit better. I started getting things to stick a little bit more, and you know, you had I had to change my learning habit to adapt to that high level of expectation. So that was my groundbreaking experience in learning. And then uh after graduating the police academy, it wasn't but two and a half years later I was off to the US Army because I just I I knew that was still my thing. I needed to be in the military, and that was in 1998, I think, yeah, 1998, and conversely, I went and took the ASVAP, still paper, pencil back then, and killed it. Killed it, man. Like and you know, the recruiters like, oh, what do you want to do, man? Here's a list of everything you can do, pretty much whatever you want, you know. And I picked my path and uh never looked back. So I think that was my start of where I really started enjoying how to, you know, I was learning, I was becoming better, I was speaking better, I was understanding things better. Uh people were treating me differently. So all of that being said, uh shit, I hate to say this, but you know, 30 some years down the road, I love learning new things, man.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Wow. Thank you for that, man. That's powerful. From initially, like, nah, it was quite challenging and to face that and work through that and flip that to now where you are today as vice president of this company, loving, building out, creating apps, and the rest of us are what? Like, uh, you know, that's that's inspiring, man.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, you know, I just there's there's a lot of negative on that path, man. You know, because there's a lot of haters out there, and uh I had to learn to figure out you know, it's not personal. I didn't I didn't take it personal. Um the one thing I have learned is when you when you when you start creating a new you that makes any sense. I don't know if that's a good term for it, but when you when you change direction in life and you really start pouring into yourself a lot and you're trying just to to grow and be better, man, your list of haters gets along quick. And I what I found out is it makes people uncomfortable because they're not doing the same thing. Or they're not maybe maybe they don't have those desires or those, you know, and sometimes and also wait, that's not the Michael we know.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Wait, no, no, this is the Michael we know. This is how we understand Mike. This you know, and then whoa, wait, you're you're changing your and like you just referenced, yeah, that why you know it can like pick people up personally inside themselves, you know, if they're feeling kind of stagnant or stuck, but they will project that onto the other one, the person who's actually going facing the difficulties of growth, and yeah, you that list increases.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, it's it was crazy, man. So my my advice out there to any listener that's listening to this is if you are on a path where you're creating a new you and you're doing things that maybe make people uncomfortable, man, just pour into it. Don't stop. Don't stop, man. Because it gets easier, it gets a lot easier, man, to ignore it. Yeah, to be honest with you. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I'm I'm comfortable with me. I mean, I'm sure the audience by now knows that I'm comfortable with who I am as a human being now. I don't have anything to prove, I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I'm just doing me and I'm and I'm enjoying my life. And in my life, I like to learn new stuff, man. You know, and it's it's the silliest things too, you know. My my wife says that a lot. She's like, you know, oh, this broke. And I'm just like, ah crap. You know, I go out there, get what I need out of the shop, and next thing you know, I'm out there fixing whatever, and she's like, I didn't know you could do that. I'm like, well, I'd never really done this, but you know, I'm just giving it a shot, winging it, you know what I mean, and just kind of using some common sense, right? And you know, just she gets amazed sometimes too. It's just like just out of nowhere. She's like, I you got the most like rid she knows, man, like Saturday morning probably by zero seven. I'm I'm itching, man. I'm itching. I gotta get something done for the day. I got in my head, I got a long list of things that I would like to do. And then there's the reality of what probably will get done. Uh I I just start getting, you know, and I start getting after it and pouring into it. And then along the way I get like these weird thoughts of, oh, you know, it'd be nice if if I just built this, it would help, you know, whatever the whatever that project is I'm working on, right? So I just go down to the hardware store, get what I think I need, I come back, and I just start building it. And uh, you know, I and I know that's a special thing. I know not everybody can do that, but uh it definitely helps. And I think the reason is is because um I I really do enjoy just learning, man.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

And try new stuff, dude. What a testament, man. Thank you for that, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

I don't care if I fail at it. I mean, I can't learn any other way, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Comfort with failing. Right, because maybe that's part of it. Um that's kind of uncommon. You know, it's it's a lot more intimidating to a lot of us. What if I fuck this up, man? What if I uh You will, huh?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

You will, but but at some point, I don't want to break it, I don't want to mess it up.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Like, uh-oh, like what if I'm not I'm not condoning, don't go out and try to build your own house if you don't know what you're doing, okay? That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that fear is a healthy thing if you understand if it's real, right? Like my wife's terrified of snakes, she hates the snakes. She opened the front door the other day, there's little little gopher snakes sitting at the front door, and she literally lost her marbles. That's legit fear. She's just fearful of snakes. What I'm talking about is in the military, uh, you're taught right out of the gate is that you're gonna fail, but it's okay. It's part of learning, it's part of the lesson, right? It's like when you go to the gym, you can't build muscle unless you tear that muscle down. You've got to go to failure, preferably beyond failure. Because if you can go beyond failure, that's when the growth really starts kicking in on the muscle side, right? Especially inside your body. I used to use the same theories in my learning world. I'm not gonna do it 100%, right? I don't know how to build a fence, but I built the fence. Is it a perfect fence? Guess it depends on who you ask. I don't care what anybody thinks. It's my fence, it's my house. I think it's a cool fence. I built it by hand, I didn't have a diagram or a schematic, I just had an idea in my head and I went with it. Everybody loves it, looks cool. It's mine. And it works, and it works. I don't I don't care what anybody else thinks. Somebody come to my house and be like, that's the stupidest fence I've ever seen. Get out of my house, dude. I can't wait to see this fence. Get out of my house, dude. You know what I'm saying? You're not out you can't have the barbecue no more. You're not getting any elk today. Go away, right? I I don't have any people like that in my life, but um, I the point to that is is uh it's okay to fail, man. It really is. And don't be scared to fail. Uh uh man, my biggest lessons have come through failure. Those are the big ones. Man, when I fail flat on my face, man, it's like I don't want to do that again. It wasn't fun, it's uncomfortable. How do I fix it? How do I grow from it? Change whatever it was you were trying to do, try something different, that sticks, it works, boom, you're on your way. Can't be afraid of that, man.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

That works really well for you, man. Yeah, yeah. And thank you. No, that that's super useful. And the fear is still there.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Oh, yeah. If people ask me all the time, are you scared? Yeah. I'm not a person that's gonna sit here and try to tell you I ain't scared of something.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

You just said don't be afraid.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

You don't need to be afraid. I think there's two different things. There's there's a healthy being afraid of something, right? Um, let me give you an example. Somebody asked me uh uh at the office, hey man, were were you scared when you jumped out of that plane? Absolutely not. I was not scared at all. I wasn't fearful at all. I was in the moment, and that's what I wanted to do. And you can see on the video on our on our YouTube or on our um our webpage, you can you can see my face. I was in complete bliss. I loved it. Now, if I'm hiking up a you know steep mountain, is there some healthy fear there? Well, yeah, I'm not dumb, man. Like I know the consequences of that. But how do I navigate it? How how do I go about it as safely as possible to limit that overcoming fear to where you maybe you look at the mountain and go, fuck that, and you turn around and leave. Conversely, it's like, okay, I'm a little nervous, kind of scared, but I think if I stick to what I know, don't go crazy, take a path, work the path, and you just keep working at it, man. It's just one step at a time. You know what I'm saying? And if you if you focus on that one step, and then the next step, the next step, you minimize that fear, and then along that path, what you'll find out is man, you'll start getting a little confidence. You're like, hey, I holy crap, I've I went up quarter of the mountain, didn't even realize it. You know what I mean? So am I scared? That's that's a very difficult question for me sometimes because it's really going to be dependent on what the scenario or the circumstance is.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

And it can be a healthy fear, right? Oh, weather's moving and oh, I only have three hours of daylight left. Ooh, it's, you know, like that that could steep up top there. You know, how much how much water do I want to bring? Do I need a jacket? Do it, you know, like just considering things. It's fear is often our greatest ally. It keeps us safe. It's it's it's there for a reason. It's a very powerful emotion that serves us quite often, while at the same time it can often hinder us and become out of proportion with the actual thing we're facing because our mind does that weird thing of spinning things up more than they actually are.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, I mean, I I'll give you a real life example happened this week is uh my wife went to the bank, she was uh wanting to get a little cash out of the bank. She's you know, they were getting ready to go on a couple days trip or something. She was standing in line inside, somebody came in behind her, and she was very uncomfortable. Just made her feel uncomfortable. So she chose to get out of line and exit the bank and uh decided to go another day. You know, she goes, Oh, I know it's silly. I go, absolutely not, and it's not silly. No, so that is your intuitiveness as a human being. Women, they're they're just I mean, I think they've got it way more than men do. But yeah. I told her, if you felt uncomfortable, doesn't matter the reason, you felt uncomfortable and you then exited on your own and went back to your day. I said, kudos to you.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Trust that.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Trust that. You don't don't don't ignore it, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Gut feelings, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

So that was a she was feeling a little bit of fear, a little scared. So she listened to it, exited the bank, and I ended up going to the bank for her, but neither here nor there. But you've got to listen to yourself. Yeah. So the crazy part is it's been 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Here we are already.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Barn burner, man. Yeah, you know, it's crazy. Well, like always, Shannon, I appreciate you, man.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Yeah, likewise, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I know you got some fun stuff coming up here in the next few weeks. I I I wish you uh the best on your journey and be safe out there. Yeah, big motorcycle ride. Big big bike ride, and just be careful, man. Be careful out there. Yep. As a bike enthusiast, man, I'm I'm envious, a little envious of you, man.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Yeah, you you're the one that told me about track days. I'm like, what? You could actually get there.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

We'll get there one day. You know, another another thing that we're going to have to get to too before we cut off for the episode is uh I was looking back in some of our earlier notes, and I I'm we talked briefly about my trip to Colorado back in 2020.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

I think that'll be something that we'll we'll have to maybe uh that'd be a good one to to tell for our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Yeah, that'll that'll be uh uh a two-parter probably. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

We've we've done an hour episode in the past.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah, yeah, I was on my list to talk about, so I figured I'd just bring it up while it's on my on my brain, man. So uh listeners out there, we appreciate all of you, man. Thank you so much for listening to Shannon and I, taking some time out of your day or whatever you got going on when you're listening to us. Like always, this is in no way, shape, or form uh therapy or or mental health advice. This is just Shannon and I having a conversation. Uh 988 is at your dialing ability. You can text or call them for help or just someone to talk to if you need somebody 24 hours a day. Uh, like always, looking your local area for some mental health providers out there. And other than that, man, as uh I always sign off. I wish everybody out there the very best. And this is Mike Seahorn. Shannon Morrow. And we'll catch you on the next episode.