When Growth Outgrows the Therapy Room

What happens when therapy works?

In this candid and deeply personal episode of UNLOADED, Michael and Shannon pull back the curtain on their unique relationship as a former therapist and client-turned podcast co-hosts. What begins as a conversation about rest and burnout quickly evolves into a discussion about healing, growth, and what happens when years of therapy begin to transform into something more.

Shannon shares the therapist's perspective on helping clients build independence, while Michael reflects on his 11-year journey of personal growth, the challenges of continuing without regular therapy, and the importance of finding trusted people who help us carry life's weight.

Together, they explore the value of self-awareness, the power of vulnerability, the difficulty of starting over, and why personal growth is a lifelong commitment rather than a destination.

Whether you're currently in therapy, considering it for the first time, or simply working to become a better version of yourself, this conversation offers an honest look at the healing process and the relationships that help shape who we become.

In this episode:

•  The evolution of the therapist-client relationship 
•  Why growth often comes through discomfort 
•  The importance of finding the right therapist 
•  Building independence and self-reliance 
•  Trust, vulnerability, and human connection 
•  Continuing the journey of personal development 

The weight we carry. The truth we speak.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'd like to welcome everybody back to our podcast unloaded. Uh, this is Michael Seahorn. And Shannon Morrow. We are glad to be back with our listeners out there. Shannon, how's how's it going?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Well, man. How are you doing, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Doing good too, man. I got a little free time this weekend. Just gonna be alone by myself with the dogs, man.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Heck yeah, man. There's nothing better than free time. Yeah, a little rest. We we don't get enough of that these days. You should have seen his expression as soon as I said that.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

No, we don't, man. And uh, you know, that's probably a good topic. And I and uh I'm gonna let you lead this one today, too.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

So I wasn't gonna lead about that, but yeah, it's just yeah, free time rest.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Why don't we talk about that free time, man? The the rest. Um, maybe maybe even we could talk a little bit about some burnout indicators, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Yeah, yeah, whatever you want, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Because you're you're getting ready to do your own rest and relaxation coming up here in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a little motorcycle trip. Well, not big motorcycle trip, actually. Big one, big one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So yeah, it's all yours, man. Uh I'm here to chime in when I need to.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Oh man, look at this. Yeah. Little handoff. Okay, cool, man. Yeah, it's it's been fun creating this this podcast, of course, here with Michael. He's been in the lead. This was his baby, if you will, and uh he's done most of the heavy lifting with it all. It's you should see us in here, man. He's he's got all the computer and tech, and he's doing all the hard hard work, and I'm just gonna hang back here, just kind of insert my two cents here and there. But uh yeah, he's he's allowing me. Well, how we came to this today. So when uh Michael primarily was creating this whole podcast, um he had so many good ideas for it. He really had the vision for it, the direction he wanted it to go, and uh just um he outlined it out really well. I mean, you can go back to the very beginning, even you know, the the the intro, you know, he created, he got help creating, and then those first several episodes just kind of we were talking about what the podcast is all about, um, why we're doing it, you know, the weight we carry, the truth we speak. And uh a lot of those early episodes um were well outlined. You know, we're we're winging this, we're not really, you know, on any kind of script or anything. It's it's very organic, and just that little outline we've been relying on, you know, each week. You know, we're just okay, what are we talking about this week? Okay, episode seven, learning to sit with a weight. Episode eight, community and connection, you know, moving forward, not moving on. And um so each week we have our little routine. He comes in, we get everything all set up, ready to go, and he I have the outlines. He's okay, what what's our episode this week? What are we doing? And uh believe it or not, that's it. We've burned through the entire outline that Michael created pretty much from the beginning. And uh here we are now, really um without a script, without even much of a plan. So I'm like, oh let me let me uh see what direction this goes now that we don't even have that. And uh and Michael, yeah, go for it, man. And uh so yeah, it's it's been this podcast has been um as you can tell, um just uh new for us. We're we're kind of figuring it out, we're learning along the way. Um and you may or may not, you know, depending on how much you've listened in the past, um seen it uh evolve a little bit. Um and now here we are kind of entering this next, what do you call it, Michael? Not like scope or arc, you call it. Yeah, it's like an arc. Yeah, we're kind of in entering our third arc, because um, but uh, and yeah, huh? What's this gonna look like? Where's this gonna go? And um it's okay. Uh me being the therapist side, you know, as as you likely know, you know, I've been working with Mike for more than a decade now. He's been a client, and I've been his therapist, and we know each other really well in that relationship through the years as we've gotten to know each other really well and work together through quite a few things, you know, and you can imagine now co-hosting this podcast, creating this together, has can really kind of stepped up, evolved this relationship. And the interesting part that has not been addressed until right now, I'm going live with this, and Michael doesn't even know it's coming at him. But uh man, we haven't even really done much therapy anymore. You know, we've we were consistent for so many years, every other week you'd come in, we'd have our session, and now this podcast has mostly replaced that. And what a difference. I in a way, Michael's therapy has mostly concluded with me and mostly now been replaced with this podcast. And I've been kind of wondering, but kind of curious, like, huh? I wonder how that's been for Mike. I wonder how he's doing with all that. And I'm again, he didn't know this was coming at him today, but I'm addressing this in a very live manner right now with a question: how's it not really doing therapy much these days?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Well, you know, it it it's a actually it's a pretty valid question to be honest with you, Shannon. And you know, I think the last two months for sure, so um well two last two, two and a half months for both Shannon and I have been crazy busy. Um just our calendars have been packed, um, but we still want to be dedicated to the listeners and to the podcast. So we've been double recording some days and you know, dang near triple recording just so we can get you guys content out there.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

But every week, we committed to every week, we're gonna drop one every week.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And we're gonna stick with that. So we just we're we're filling the gaps when we need to fill those gaps, but to to answer your question candidly, it's you know, um, I I depend on our our talks through the month. Now the listeners have gotten a little bit more um they've gotten a little bit clear insight into a little bit of how our therapy is because of some of the the past podcasts lately, right? Because they've been very personal to me, or um we've talked about some things that I've been going through, you've been going through, and um that's exactly how our uh actual one-hour sessions are. It's just personal stuff that we're we're struggling with. Uh some weeks maybe not so much, it's a little lighter. Some weeks are very, very heavy. But with anything in life, when you're putting so much energy and time and discipline, if you will, into whatever it is you're creating. So for me, it's been the a self-help journey for the better part of 11 years now, and you've been the the crutch of that. So when we started the podcast, we were still pretty regular on you know getting at least one therapy session a month in, uh, usually two. Now it's a lot different because um we only get to chat a little bit prior to a recording, a little bit after the recording when we're packing up and heading out the door.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

So you'll try to squeeze a little micro session in really quick to just unload a little bit. I try as we're setting up.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, I try. Uh you know, but uh Shannon, like you say, he knows me he he he probably knows me better than even my closest people know, intimate family circle. So uh you know, he knows when something's really going on, and he's pretty intuitive on just making sure, hey, checking in, making sure that I'm good, you know, and I appreciate the crap out of that. Um but my hope is is once we get through these uh June, July, probably, um, and then definitely once we get into the August time frame, hopefully Shannon and I'll be kind of back on track and I'll be back in doing a normal session. Because for me personally, I have to have that. Have to. Not not want to. I have to have that because when you've created that discipline, your your mind and your subconscious then looked forward to that, right? Because it's a normal part of my routine. It's like when I don't exercise in the morning or I don't get a chance to read or a journal. Like you you miss it. You're like, damn, I I missed that, right? So to answer the question, if I didn't answer it very clearly, I'm missing it. Uh I look forward to getting back into that here in the next month or so after Shannon gets back from playing evil Knievel or whatever he's done. Yeah. Most people might not even know who that is.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Uh we'll let that one go. We'll just let that look as brave. Um you say you have to have it, and that's a big statement. Yeah, have to. And you know, thank you for comparing it to other regular practices that very much benefit us, such as exercise. You know, we come to rely on the routine, the discipline, how much it benefits us. And so, yes, of course, and you know, which it does kind of from my side over here as a therapist, part of our training is in a way we're supposed to kind of be working toward putting ourselves out of business with each client, right? Like, we we don't want to create too much dependency. And not that um that's take that for for what that means, you know, not like real, like other kinds of dependency, but just that, like, okay, yeah, of course. Having regular therapy is very beneficial, and we really look forward to it, myself included, my own personal journey with my own therapist, and okay, I very much understand. And um, this is an interesting balance for mental health providers because we part of our duty is to um help our clients create um greater independence, greater um self-reliance to like, huh? They don't need us anymore. They're good, right? They like, hey, they can do this without us, so to speak. And um and then, of course, the clients counter with, yeah, of course, no, I I am good. I've made it, I've made a ton of progress, I'm feeling much better, I'm big improvements, and I don't want to quit, I want to keep going just because it's so beneficial. I I could quit if you if you're moving out of town or if you get hit by a bus, but can I keep going? You know, and so generally, of course, the clinician, well, yeah, of course, you know. Um, but it is, I don't know how many clients or even just the public is aware that clinicians do have to be mindful of like, uh, what is in the best interests of the client and how do we get them on their own two feet so they don't need us as much.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

It's very, very interesting because I was sitting here around listening to you explain this. So I I have some Shannon knows this. Uh I have some severe um post-military injuries that I've dealt with since I've left the service. One of them is cleaning back. And when I first met my chiropractor, which uh has recently retired, which um if he's out there, man, just I miss you, bro. Yeah. Doc, I miss you. I miss you, Doc. I hope all is well with you and your retirement, but God bless America, I miss this guy. Anyway, when I first messed first met my doc, he told me the same thing as Shannon just said. In the chiropractor world, it's the same thing. When I first met Doc, it was every week for like six to eight weeks straight to get to get my body back into the right position to get it uh put back where it's supposed to be, and then to keep that. And then the maintenance started, and then we went to like every two weeks, and then we went to once a month, and then we finally got to the point where Doc said, Hey, call me when you need me. Right. So when you were sitting here explaining this um on the mental health side, it rings rings through to me. That makes total sense. And I think what I would say from my side of the table is uh Shannon and I, and this is a little TMI, but I'll just throw it out there. Shannon and I have had these personal conversations about, hey, do you want to keep going? Do you want to, you know, just see me once a month, or you know, do you want to call me when you need me? I think the power of this therapy is it it's definitely resides with whoever that person is. Because some people might be like, hey man, you helped me get through this tremendous thing, whatever that thing might have been, but I feel good, I feel strong, I feel like I've got some new tools in the belt, and I think I can stand them on two feet for a while. Personally, for me, after uh 11 years now uh with Shannon, this is a choice for me. And the choice is that because of my journey and because of the things that I have learned along the way on this journey, there's a lot of times that Shannon and I are really learning from each other on both sides of the table. So I don't I don't really look at our session as therapy in this maybe in the clinical clinical definition. I look at it as, hey man, this is my confidant. He's a trained professional. Uh, there are things that I'm still learning, there are things that I still struggle with, there are things that I still haven't unpacked after a decade. This is true.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

And I'm I'm somewhat aware of those things. I've caught little glimpses, and I've mostly let him be, you know, uh maybe uh occasionally just huh. You'll tap the button a little bit. You know, just gently. And uh and thank you for speaking to this, Mike, because that it's it's actually a whole modality, it's relational therapy, because once you see a client through some pretty challenging stuff, and they you have that relationship established, that trust, that and they are just like, man, you do know them better than most people know them because within the confidentiality, within the safe space, within the professional standards, there is just that that comfort to really be seen. That one of um my favorite, you know, kind of um I can't like call him a mentor, I've never met him, but one of the OGs of therapy, Carl Rogers, you know, unconditional positive regard. It doesn't matter what you tell me. It doesn't matter what you tell me. I'm here for you, man. I I I will have unconditional positive regard for you. Like it's because I so understand how we are all human. We all fuck shit up, man. We all have some really gnarly shadow stuff in there, we all have those skeletons in our client. And you there's nothing you can bring out right now that would make me stop liking you, man, because it's just that and and having that safety, having that trust, that confidence within the confidentiality, you know, it's it's a pretty powerful relationship between clinician and client that is created. And it's so it's very understandable how many of these relationships continue for years and years just because where else are you gonna go? You're gonna I mean, sometimes clinicians retire or move. And yeah, it's hard. We often hear from clients, it's hard to start over. You know, it's hard to meet day one. Who are you? Uh, what's your story? You know, after so many years of someone who knows you so well, and when you start talking about that thing, they have the knowledge to like circle back around and oh wait, but I all you know, kind of challenge this or give that perspective a little bit, or just kind of reframe or reflect that. And it's um yeah, it just to be honest, it uh it makes it difficult um sometimes when necessary for what they call um forgive the term, but it it makes sense. Um, when clinicians or f or clients, it goes both ways. It's time to break up, you know. And it's in fact, years ago, I had to break up with Michael when I was leaving the VA because I Michael and I, as you probably know the story from previous episode, Michael and I met when I was employed by the VA as a clinician. Michael came in, what's the psychotherapy bullshit? I don't want to do this, whatever. But he was going through some really tough stuff in his life, and we met, and then when I chose to resign from the VA, take um a clinical director position for a little nonprofit, I had to break it to all my clients, yep, I'm out, I'm done. I'm this is my last, I got two weeks left, this is our last session. And um I remember the day I had that conversation with Mike, and uh for a moment he he kind of dissociated. He was like, he didn't hear me. And and I and I I a couple seconds later I recognized, oh wait, he didn't actually comprehend what I just told him, and I had to circle back around and like, no, actually, bro, I'm out. And then like, what? Like, oh whoa, whoa, and you're a cool as hell, man. You're super happy for me moving on, you're super supportive, you're as of course it's Michael, cool as hell, man. And you know, and but there's that, like both sides, you know, like whoa, oh damn, oh shit, okay, okay, wow, happy for you, man. And ooh, this is gonna be hard for me. And like, unfortunately, as circumstances, you know, it was years, no, year and a half, uh less than two years.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, it was about a year and a half, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

And then finally, um as my private practice was up and going pretty strong, I I called Michael and said, Hey, just just an option if you wanted to return. And so here we are today.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, it was tough, man. And I I think after you left uh the vet center, I think I think I went to one I think I went to one appointment after that, and I don't remember the gentleman's name. Nice guy. Not for me. Yeah. Not for me. Yeah, and again, I was in a different place, different time, and different space for sure, but um you know I definitely would say that that was a very challenging year and a half uh for me. However, it did force me to do other things to try to figure out if I want to continue uh being a better human being or not. So uh it was difficult for sure, but I I was absolutely you know thrilled for you and your your opportunity to get out of that environment and do your own thing, right? Because we can always connect the dots looking backwards, man. You know, you can look back now and go, man, it all made sense. Well, shit, that day didn't make sense to me. You know, it it was like, Well, what the hell do I do now? You know, who do I talk to? So I get it, man. It's it is heavy uh on both sides. I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's uh for both people, the therapist and you know, the counseled, if you will. But yeah, like Shannon said, you know, when he called me, it wasn't even I I didn't take a second. I'm like, yep, put me on the calendar, man. I'm back, you know, and as they say, the rest is history.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Yeah, here we are. Yeah. Michael, thank you for addressing the difficulty on on both sides, and yet it is, as I mentioned earlier, kind of in our training, we look at this a little. Um difficulty does often inspire growth. It is through difficulty, like, wait, like you just said, thank you. I wasn't as aware of this. You kind of had to, well, what now? You know, well, let me try seeing this other guy provided that referral, and you you you try it, you checked it out, you're like, nope, not for me. Okay, but then to suddenly find yourself without your regular therapy that you would so come to value, you know, and that was, you know, like okay, you know, you had to choose then to continue on your path of personal growth, of you know, just your working on self, your self-awareness, the self-acceptance, you you continued moving forward through that time, even as far as I know, without regular therapy. And yeah, that was like oof, you weren't expecting that. And yet to be had to have that opportunity to then okay, well, I guess I'm gonna rise to the occasion and keep going with this, that is sometimes more growth. Than even a therapist can provide if just continuing as usual.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah, and you know, we've we've talked in great detail um since this podcast started about you know unloading and and putting the weight down and everybody's journey is different. What I will say in anything I've ever done in my personal life, whether it's been my fitness years or health years or mental health or whatever the case may be, man, if you just really pour that energy into something because it means something to you, the sky's a limit, man. In my opinion. It's it's when when you're truly pouring energy into something that you really believe in, not something that you just saw on TikTok or YouTube or some other social media platform that all that looks cool, and then it it burns out real quick and goes away. It's because it wasn't true to you. Things that are true to you and that you're pouring that energy into, man, you know, you get so much traction, and you get a lot more bang for your buck, if you will. You know, when when we parted our way, it forced me to figure out I could quit and give up. That's easy peasy, man. It's so fucking easy to quit.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Good enough. I made it this way. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

I did my thing, peace out, I'll go live life, and then uh slip back to the the guy that I used to be. I chose a different path. And you know, I poured into meditation and zen and Buddhist traditions and things like that, and up my reading, I started journaling more, right? So it's really up to the person, man. You can either just let the wheels fall off or you can just pick yourself up and drive on, man, and and see what see what comes out of it. I I never I could have never guessed 11 years ago that this is the the road we'd be on.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

No, I think we didn't see this. Uh of course. Not even in my preview.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

You know, so it's crazy to think about, but you know, that's um that's exactly kind of how it went for us, you know what I mean. Is that a time as for the episode today?

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Uh time um so sorry, Michael just showed me his phone with a timer on it and it was counting down. I'm a little slow on the uptake. I'm like, oh, okay, we have about six minutes left, is what Michael is trying to show me right there. I was trying to do it incognito, but Michael's so much sharper than me. I'm like, I'm sitting here purely focused on like this weird microphone in front of me. Michael, while we're doing the podcast, he could be, he's, he's there's text coming in at him, and he's like checking his emails, and he's running all the IT stuff, and he's like, he's really good. His like at doing like his mind works very quickly. I think mine works much slower because I can't even look at his phone and like, what are you trying to show me?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Totally didn't mean to throw you off track. I was just trying to give you a heads up, dude.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

We have about five minutes left. Okay. Yeah, we're good. Good, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh so yeah, but it just huh. So that that balance, of course, between like, you know, okay, what what is the most healthy thing for our clients? You know, like this this is beneficial. I I'm not speaking to my work with Michael now. I'm speaking to most therapists, most psychotherapists in their work, looking at their caseload, looking at their clients, just their approach to their work in psychotherapy, um, often in the back of their mind is okay, yep, this is beneficial. For, you know, I've I've been my client came in to see me about these things. We've we've mostly worked through these things. There's been some resolution, there's been some insight, there's been some growth. Cool. We're okay, you know, we we can keep going. There's always more stuff under there, there's always new stuff coming up, you know, and and it often does keep going for a while and it remains beneficial, while also sometimes would it be more beneficial to like, hey, you know, it's we've we've had some resolution, we've uh, you know, check out the treatment plan. We've achieved our goals, right? And um, you know, why how do you feel about maybe taking a little break from therapy? How do you feel about seeing how it goes, you know, just for the next few months without, you know, just kind of on your own for a little continuing continuing your work now, and and in fact, now that maybe not having therapy for a few months, man, you might be surprised how you really step into that and fill that with your own things, you know, and see see what you do for yourself. Or often, you know, then the clients can find a someone else, a different therapist. And sometimes a different therapist with a different approach and different insight can be um very beneficial because while therapist A was, you know, even while therapist A was really great and helped them with a bunch of stuff, but you know, just sometimes a different perspective, a little bit different of a approach, you know, is you're just getting differences, which can also be very valuable. So um it's just one thing that a lot of clinicians um I I'm I hope kind of keep in the back of their mind, you're just always kind of considering what's best for their clients, even if it means like, ooh, you know, hey, how how about a little break, you know, from the therapy? And and that was not my intent here with Michael. Um it was just the hey man, summer's been kind of crazy. This podcast has of course taken priority, and we haven't gotten a therapy session in for more than a couple months now. And for him to be game, for me to let that for him to let me bring that up live today without I I just blindsided him with this. And um it was a valuable discussion though, and thank you, Michael, for um having it with me.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah, no. It's been good, you know, and uh you know, listeners get to hear me ramble on enough, so it's good to hear from your side of the table because you're rambling. Because it is it is important out uh for all of our listeners out there to really understand each of us from you know a different side of the table, because that's what makes us tick so well. Um I I don't have really anything to hide these days. Um if I feel that it's uh a value to the listeners and there's value in it for somebody out there that might be going through something similar, then I'm all about it. Shannon knows me so well, if I don't want to talk about it, I'll literally just say, no, I'm not comfortable talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, you do have some themes that you wouldn't be comfortable about talking about.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah, no, of course, but you know, I'm I'm open enough in this environment for our podcast listeners just to say, hey, I I'm not cool talking about that right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Nice. And to be able to just clearly set that boundary. You know, just like no, no, not gonna talk about that. That that's healthy.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah, and it's not meant in you know any disrespect. I think that's on the contrary, this is why this works with Shannon and I is because we've got the trust between us to have those conversations. And if Shannon were to ask me something, which I don't think's ever even happened to be quite honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Our next episode, but maybe we can try. Yeah, try. Try. We're making this real now.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

We'll shoot, we'll shoot at the target and see what sticks. But we'll we'll figure it out. Uh it's been a good time today. Uh, we are out of time on the podcast for today. Yeah, um, you wanna you want to close this out?

SPEAKER_02 30:02

No, man. You get the opening and closing, and let's not change it up that much.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

All right. Uh we appreciate Shannon today, man, for sure. I appreciate him and uh everything he's done for me, and definitely for being my co-host, because you know it wouldn't be the same without you, man. So I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah, I sure appreciate you creating this whole thing and bringing me on board, and this has been really fun. It's been growth for us both.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

It's been a great, it's been a good time for sure, man. Uh like always, uh to all the listeners out there, um, if you are in a position where you need someone to talk to, uh, you can always call 988. It's out there, it's free. Agreement tests, yeah. There goes our timer. And uh it's free. They're 24-7, so uh it doesn't matter the time of day or night. Call, text, call or text. Yep. Different languages available out there. Uh, like always, though, if if you are in your local area and you need an hour uh to talk to somebody, look at your local provider list out there and give it a try.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah, there's a lot of good therapists out there. Um, most of them can be found at um psychologytoday.com. Most therapists in most areas, it's just the kind of go-to where there's all the profiles, the photos, the modalities, the descriptions, the prices, and everything. Just like yeah, psycholytoday.com. And if you considering, like, huh, maybe, maybe might want to check this therapy thing out, you know, just just scroll through, just see who's out there, and if someone seems like it might be a good fit, man, be brave, make that call.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, and and from my side of the table, don't be afraid to try a couple different until you find one that sticks.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Please shop around, man. If the first one's like, uh yeah, no, keep yeah, keep trying. It it's normal. We we want that as clinicians, please. We want the good fit as much as the clients do.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah, absolutely. So find one that you like, find one you click with, and and uh and the best of luck to you and your journey. Heck yeah. I hope everybody out there has a has a good weekend, be safe, enjoy. Um, as for me, Mike Se Horn. Shannon Morrow. We'll catch you on the next episode.