Fame, Failure, and Finding Love Again with Jaki Baskow

Jaki Baskow, CEO and founder of Las Vegas Speakers Bureau and Baskow Talent, shares lessons from over 45 years in the entertainment industry. She opens up about resilience, navigating celebrity culture, adapting to social media and AI, and the importance of kindness in both business and relationships. Jaki also reflects on personal heartbreak, abusive relationships, and starting over, offering wisdom on trust, vulnerability, and finding love later in life. The conversation explores career longevity, mental health in entertainment, and why passion, purpose, and connection matter more than fame.

Highlights

•  Jaki Baskow shares lessons from 45+ years in the entertainment industry 
•  Why kindness matters more than celebrity status in business and life 
•  Personal stories of marriage, heartbreak, and starting over 
•  How social media, AI, and influencers are reshaping entertainment 
•  Advice on relationships, trust, and finding love later in life

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome back to Headcase. I'm Stephanie Hoffman. This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human. Let's dive in. Hi everyone, welcome back to Headcase Podcast. Today I have on Kathy Pass Hell. She's the CEO and founder of Las Vegas Speaker's Europe Master Talent. She has over 45 years shaping the entertainment and corporate speaking industries, and she's recognized as one of the top 10 celebrity talent and corporate speaker brokers in the world. She works with people all over the world, and she's known for her innovative approach, unwavering consistency, and twisted reputation. So hi Jackie, welcome.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Good morning, Steph. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Good morning. I'm great. I'm so happy we got to connect.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So your career has been marked by connecting audiences like with world-class talent, navigating high pressure demands and the entertainment business. Obviously, that takes a lot of resilience and integrity. So my first question for you is how, being that the entertainment industry is so high pressure, how have you prioritized your own mental health in your long career?

SPEAKER_04 1:21

You know, I'm I'm very unusual because I love waking up in the morning and doing this every day. I'm gonna be in business 50 years in February. Wow. Um I think it's really, really important that I'm not impressed with celebrities, I'm impressed with people that are nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

You know, I think that in life, um, kindness is the most important thing for any relationship, whether it be a business relationship or it be a personal relationship. And I think that I've um I my parents were nice. My my mother was very, very kind, and she was always giving back to others. So I think it stems back from where you came from. Right, totally also how you continue that in your life.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Absolutely, yeah. And so what got you into this career path?

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Um, I always wanted to be an actress when I was a young girl, and I danced on TV as a kid, and I came out to Las Vegas to work for a movie studio that lost their funding. And um, a man named Telly Savalas, an actor, talked me into opening my company in 1976, and the rest is history. I love putting people to work. I love walking up to somebody in a a restaurant and giving them my card and saying, Would you like to be in the movies? Like when I'm casting and making people's dreams come true because um somebody made mine come true.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

That's amazing. So, what are some strategies you have to you know prevent that burnout because so many people rely on you for so much, and I'm sure you almost act as a therapist for so many clients.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Yeah. Well, I I will tell you for a long time, Stephanie, I wanted to put everybody to work and do everything for everybody, and then it started getting to me because you can't, you you can't make everybody happy, you can't put everybody to work, you can only do the best that you can do. Right. So I decided to do it. I needed to change my headset and do it one person at a time, you know, and let people know that I'm not responsible for their career, I'm responsible for giving them the opportunity to submit themselves for a job. And a lot of times we're not the final decision makers in life. It'll be an ad agency or producer or something like that. So after I stop making promises to a million people because I wanted to make everybody happy, including myself, um, you can only do what you can do at one one person and one step at a time.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

And that goes in relationships when you're you're married or you're dating somebody. Um, you know, it has to be a two-way street.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Absolutely. So have you noticed um any big shifts in the industry when it comes to like mental health and and that space, especially you know, working with so many different personalities and talents and people having their own struggles?

SPEAKER_04 4:24

I see a lot of actors and and celebrities putting peer pressure on themselves. You know, the um the movie industry, it's you know, it's up and down, and and television right now, a lot of things are streaming. So all the big movies are not in the movie theaters for a long time, making the money that it used to make. So I'm seeing that um a lot of people are really they don't have a game plan, you know, and and what I tell people, and especially new actors and celebrities that I know, you have to have a second life. You know, you make all that money acting, take that money, invest wisely, um, do something that you love every day. Charitable, you know, being charitable to people and paying it forward, it makes you feel good, it warms your heart. A lot of people are not charitable, right? And it's um, and then there are some that are. I do a lot of celebrity golf tournaments, and I can't say enough about the Brian Cranstons of the world and the Patrick Warburton's, and who does St. Jude's, and we work um with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Um, I have a 90-some-year-old client, John Arnos, and he still raises money for them. He jumped out of an airplane last year to raise money. Oh my god. So, you know, amazing. It's all about your passion. Life is about being passionate, about waking up every day, and whether you're a movie star or you're a nurse or you're somebody that's picking up somebody's trash, if you're a pat if you are passionate about what you do, that's important. And you wake up with a good attitude and and being kind and passionate to the people around you.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

That's that's like couldn't have said it better myself. Um, so obviously the celebrity culture and the entertainment industry kind of glamorizes perfection and visibility and like, you know, especially with social media, just like putting yourself online and putting yourself out there. How do you help your talent kind of navigate that pressure that you mentioned before?

SPEAKER_04 6:33

Well, I've been referring a lot of people to companies like Diamond Media and different companies that do social media. You know, it's so important to be out there. You know, I never knew about social media until the past couple years. Yeah. Now social media is everything. When I'm hiring an actor or I'm hiring a celebrity or referring a celebrity for a movie, the first thing people do now is they want to know about their social media. I have a new client, Mackenzie, that was on American Idol. He has over 20 million followers. But he's a yes, I'll have to put him on your show. He's a guru. Definitely. But he's out there, he knows how to do it. You know, there's a recipe for getting social media, and if you don't know how to do it, you find a company that does. That's great. You know, recently, um Stephen Diamond, who does our, you know, our SEO and things like that, he was telling us that the way Google works and the algorithms work, it's all changing with AI now. That AI are picking up different things, and that's how people are finding you on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, I can imagine. It's it's that's a big struggle too, with the entertainment industry kind of navigating AI and how that can take away from just people using talent in a different way. It's a whole different world out there. Yeah, it's moving so fast too.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

You know, I was hiring speakers for a Bitcoin convention in um Portugal, and they didn't want they didn't care about how great my speakers were. They wanted me to hire influencers so they could come and speak, and then they could social media that so they get attention. And that was the most important thing to them.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Wow, that's that's insane. It really is. I mean, that's the same with uh I used to model, and that was kind of how it started to turn in the modeling industry. Like, how many followers do you have in order to book a job versus like how you actually look, which is interesting, but yeah, times are changing. Um, so when it comes to being, you know, kind of the go-to person for so many people, how do you manage and balance like professional boundaries with your clients and your coworkers and things like that?

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Well, I try to make life fun every day. I wake up and every day has to be a fun day. I mean, not every day is a great day, you know. We have we live we're living life in in very challenging times right now.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

Um, but I try to wake up with a good attitude. Um, I actually have a 95-year-old ex-housekeeper I adopted. So and a little dog. So, you know, we try to find fun things to do. I try to watch positive television. I am a news junkie, but I try to limit that with what's going on. And I think that um, you know, relationships like personal relationships are hard, you know, especially um, I don't want to consider myself a senior, but I am, and you know, it's it's it's hard to find people that you're attracted to and people that have can have an intelligent conversation, yeah, and just want to go to the movies or have dinner parties with friends and go out and see a show and do fun things, you know. I think you know, it doesn't matter what age you are, um, that it's very important to want to continue enjoying every day and enjoying what's out there. Right. So there's so many fun things to do, and it doesn't have to cost a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, absolutely. So have you ever been married before?

SPEAKER_04 10:19

I've been married twice.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Married twice. Okay. So can you tell me a little bit about like how that has gone for you and and how you kind of picked yourself up after these marriages that didn't necessarily work out?

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Yes. Um my first marriage, um, I'm married at 30. I wanted to be in love and be married and the whole gamma. Um he was not loyal. He actually slept with my competitor the night before my wedding, which I found out later on. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Yeah. And he um wanted to be a movie star, and I think that's one of the reasons why he married me. I was married for three years. Um was not a good marriage. I um I left the marriage. He had anger anger management problems, and I am so um, I'm not a screamer, I'm not an argumentative person, I'm not a fighter. I'm all about, like I said, you know, trying to be nice and trying to um do whatever I can in a relationship for that person.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

So that relationship ended, and um then I got married at 40, and I married um someone, and I had a Greek mother-in-law living with me for almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Oh wow, I'm great.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

She's a great cook. And um um I married somebody um who I thought was my best friend, and you know, uh, he ended up having very picked up some very bad habits and he was became a very bad boy. And I walked away from that relationship after 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

And it's hard, you know, because you hang on, and I'm gonna talk from my heart as a woman that women want to be in love, they just want affection, they want somebody to, you know, give them little love notes and and and do nice things for them so they feel appreciated. And I think that what's really real, and you have to you have to give that back to your partner also, but I think what's really, really important that um if if you're in a um physically or verbally abusive relationship, you need to get out. Right. And you know what? Most women stay because we feel like nobody's gonna love us. Where am I gonna go? How do I start over? How do I pick up and leave everything that I own? Which I did. You know, I I left all my belongings, um, everything, you know. Um, and sometimes, you know, when you're married to somebody and they become abusive, you have to walk from that relationship. And sometimes it takes a long time and you don't listen to your friends, like, don't marry that person, or don't go out with that person, or or get out of that relationship. Yeah, but your heart tells you, and you really need to listen to your gut. And I I say it to relay that to other women that are out there that might be in a relationship. If you're not happy, why are you staying in there?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Right. You know, love is blind, they say. So I'm sure it's so much easier said than done, but it's so important to you know, see that there's like a light at the end of the tunnel, and that if it's that things shouldn't be that difficult in a relationship.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Well, you said the magic words light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, and there always is light, and there's always somebody out there. And if you have to go a couple years and you you're not in a serious relationship, then take it and enjoy it. Do things for other people, enjoy your friends, spend time with people that that appreciate your energy.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah. So after these things happen, did you just not want to get into another relationship? Was it sort of just discouraging?

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Um, I'm not a person that gets discouraged easy, but after my last relationship, my last marriage, um, all I really wanted to do was be married. They did not have to be rich, they did not have to be, you know, anything amazing or famous. I wanted to be with somebody normal that just wanted to do normal things and I just wanted to be loved. Yeah, you know, I wanted that family unit. And unfortunately, um, I wanted children, um, it wasn't in our cards, and I'm I I guess I'm lucky I get to adopt all my friends' kids, and I have two beautiful nephews and a brother.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Oh, that's an easy.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

So um I just think that in life sometimes we look for the wrong things. I have a lot of friends, and they're like, Oh, I want to marry somebody with money. Well, that doesn't buy you happiness, right? You know, it may pay your bills, but it doesn't buy you happiness. You have to have the whole picture. You both need to be able to support each other, it's very important. You know, you don't want to have to support somebody's um lifestyle. Yeah, you also have to have things in common, you have to have conversation, you have to be the best friend be before you're a lover, you know, and you have to have every that whole gamma, you know. Um, you want the romance, you want to be able to have great conversations and just you know, be in love. Yeah, and if you don't have that, why are you staying in that relationship? Yeah, just to be with somebody, and trust me, we've all been there. I have stayed for way too long in my marriage and ignoring the signs. I believed in the beauty of my dreams. I thought I thought things would change.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

I think a lot of people kind of some they they marry, they marry or they date potential before before actually being realistic with themselves and kind of looking at things like for who like at face value instead of what could be.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Absolutely. We all want to be in love. Yeah, and you know, you asked me, did I um have a hard time after my divorce? I had a very hard time. I just did not want to go out with anybody, and it wasn't being negative. I was on such burnout and so devastated. Um I had somebody put their hands around my neck, and I mean, I'm not even an argumentative person, yeah, but um the person that I was I was married to had problems, you know. Um he picked up some bad habits and and you know, he has cleaned himself up, but I had to move on. I just had to move on. You know, you can't go backwards in this life. Sometimes we always think, well, maybe maybe I'm gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Or if I did something different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

You know, Stephanie, it's like when you have a boyfriend and you want that boyfriend to be what you want them to be, they have to be who they are. You can't go in a relationship changing people. A therapist named Dr. Ann Manning, that I had during my my first divorce, told me something really important for your viewers out there. What you see in the beginning of a relationship is always there in the end. You can't go in a relationship changing people.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah, that's really profound, actually.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Even though we would love to. I know if you if you look at it, sometime it's always there at the end of that relationship, and you're like, ah, why didn't I see that?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

I actually have heard specifically men when you meet them, the time you start dating is exactly who they are when you get married, and it is exactly who they are when they die. Like they're kind of just always the same. I think women are easily changed in some ways. I think maybe just were more emotional and effective that way. But yeah, I heard I heard that. And it it's so far it seems really true. I feel like they never really change.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Well, you know, they say also it's how they treat their mother or their family, and um even you know, men that have been divorced, how they treat their ex-wives, you know, just because a relationship doesn't work doesn't mean you have to be the enemy. Yeah, you know, all depends what happened in the relationship, though, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Right. Absolutely. So you said that that second marriage had there was a physical aspect to it that was obviously really what was the downfall of the marriage. Yes, and as someone who's you know, you don't even raise your voice, like how did that affect you and your self-worth?

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Well, of course, you feel no one's ever gonna love you. Right. Um, I put on weight uh during my marriage. Um I, you know, my second husband did not spend a lot of time with me. You know, I brought him into my company, we worked together, and I feel that um, you know, maybe part of it, I can't blame everything on him, maybe part of it was I was trying to uh maybe I was overbearing and trying to help too much. I should have let him go out and do his own thing instead of bringing him into my company or with somebody 24-7. It's not good. And at that time, my company started becoming very big, I started becoming well known. And I I think that, you know, at one point he felt like Mr. Basco instead of himself. And that's not good. You know, it's not good to make somebody feel less than, and I never would do that. I always wanted to raise the bar for him instead of taking him down.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

But I think, you know, everybody has issues from one their childhood. You know, he was the youngest son, and all the other sons were um, you know, they had these big careers, and he was him. And I mean, everything he did was, you know, he was a perfectionist and obsessed that everything had to be perfect, and he could have been really fabulous, but he wouldn't allow himself.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

So, you know, um he spent a lot of time in the garage working on cars, going to his friends, working and and hanging out in places he shouldn't be hanging out in in Vegas. Right, you know, and um, you know, I um I I now, you know, I he has uh asked me for forgiveness for everything that he did, and I just said, I bless you and wish you well. Yeah, you know, I don't I don't I try not to hold any harbor any ill feelings because it's when you harbor negative things it makes you sick.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, I mean I agree. As a nurse, I see firsthand how stressed.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

I feel yeah, I'm ready to go meet somebody, and I I feel that I would like to meet somebody. I've I've met a couple people since then, and you know, um maybe I wasn't their cup of tea or they weren't my cup of tea, but it always is fun just to meet somebody and see what happens in that and that journey of finding love. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah, I feel like when these things happen, like infidelity or abuse in some way, it usually stems from something in it's like a self worth issue for that person. They're the ones who are really, you know, not happy. And kind of projecting onto you or in into their relationships. And he both of them just seemed like unstable in the beginning.

unknown 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Not really fit for a relationship.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

Yeah. I had a husband that's unfortunately started doing drugs. Our um landscaper turned him on to some drugs when they were fixing cars. And you know, when you don't live in that world, you don't know somebody's on drugs, you think they're having mood swings, you don't know what's going on. And it was it was bad. And you know, I tried everything to do for interventions, and so did my mother-in-law, and it just it was worse and worse and worse. And then finally I pushed it one day, and um the hands went around my neck and I went out the door.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Wow. Well, good for you for leaving.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

You know, people that are on drugs, they don't know what they're doing, they really don't. So it was that changes you're tough because you don't live in that world. Yeah, it was very tough. And I'm in a world where I was working 24-7, I was supporting the household and and a mother-in-law that lived there, and it was very difficult on me. So I guess I took it out on myself by eating. I started constantly eating, and you know, you beat yourself up because when a relationship doesn't work, we always think, what did I do? Not looking at the whole picture.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Absolutely. Yeah. It's so easy to blame yourself and and wonder like if you'd had done something differently, maybe this wouldn't happen, or if you had been this way, he wouldn't have done this, and and all of that. But how did you balance that time being so difficult with working 24-7? Did you find that work was a good outlet, or did it kind of bleed into that?

SPEAKER_04 23:51

I think work was my outlet. Okay. Work definitely was my outlet. Um, I felt that um, you know, by having him at the office with me, I could be with him all the time, and but you know, he would find excuses to go other places. But um I think my work kept my sanity, to be honest with you. Definitely kept my sanity.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

That's amazing. Um, and how did it affect your? I mean, I'm sure if you're working with clients for like really long periods of time, they're you know, you've you've formed these relationships where they're almost like your kids in a way, or your your siblings. You're like you become super close. Do they come to you with advice and questions if they've known what you're gone through?

SPEAKER_04 24:43

I have um one of my friends who's a pretty well-known actor, I'll leave anonymous. You know, his younger wife left him for a younger guy that's very wealthy, and um then she took a lot of his money, the husband, and um he's in devastation mode. I I think you know, first of all, I have to talk about men that think marrying younger women are the key, you know. And listen, we're attracted to what we're attracted to. It doesn't mean that when you get older, you're not attracted to younger men. But um in life, you have to you have to appreciate that person in front of you. I learned that both of my husbands were very, very handsome, but I've learned now that handsome is within. Handsome doesn't necessarily mean the most drop-dead, gorgeous person out there that you you know that you're gonna fall in love with. If you don't have any kind of balance, you know, you're not gonna have a great relationship, and you have to fall in love with somebody's self, not just the outside.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

You want to inside your best friend. You might find somebody that's not even that handsome and they're very romantic and loving, and you have the greatest relationship in the world, physically and mentally.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like the older I get, I I mean, I feel like when you're young, you just look at everyone based on face value, like they're attractive. I want to date them because they're so good looking. And then as you get older, it's like the really the things you're attracted to are their personality, their humor, how they treat others, and and that's really what's so important.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

But you're young and beautiful, and you should find somebody that really adores you.

unknown 26:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Have you been married? I am not married. I do have I am in a relationship.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Good. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Well, you know so coming from that, um, how does that how does those experiences kind of shape like your ability? I mean, you obviously are a very vulnerable person, but when you're in dating, like are you still open and vulnerable when you meet people, or do you kind of tiptoe a little bit in the beginning?

SPEAKER_04 26:59

You know, I think we're all vulnerable. You know, we all we just want to be embraced and loved, you know. And I think that when I meet somebody now, um I try to go in with an an open mind that, you know, if that person likes me, they like me. And if they don't, there's nothing I can do about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

You know, but um, of course, you know, we all want to find that perfect person. So um I'm still vulnerable at my age. I, you know, I um I'm very romantic and loving, and you know, I don't, I really don't want to be hurt again. You know, am I trusting? I I'm in this in a next relationship, I will definitely try to trust that person. I will work hard at trusting because you can't I will tell you, Stephanie, that you cannot go into a relationship bringing all the old baggage into the new relationship.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Because it's a new person.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

You can't have those expectations or think that that person's gonna right away go cheat on you or or do this or do that. I'll tell you, it's a very scary world out there on the internet. Um, I have friends that are doing that romantic dating on the internet, and they are talking to scammers, people that are saying they're people that they're not, and it concerns me. People do not want to listen, you know, because they're women that just want to be in love. And um I I don't go on the internet to find somebody.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

That's smart.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

You know, and you know, I'm hoping that through other people that I will find, you know, I will find love. I believe in fate.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

I believe that too. I think it's too dangerous, and it's again like kind of based on appearances when it comes to dating online. And I think you you're in a cur a career path, and your your job just is centered around being around so many people that I think it's inevitable for you to meet someone.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

It it's hard because I don't think I want to be with another entertainer.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

That's true. I I there's always people around.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

Yeah, I I'm gonna leave them anonymous. I dated somebody famous for three years, and it's like it's very high maintenance.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

It's very high maintenance. Yeah. I just want to be with a normal human being.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Right. Well, they're out there. I guess Vegas is kind of a hard spot to date, too, because it's pretty much an epicenter for enterprise.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

I think there's men out there that are feeling the same thing that we're feeling that they've burned or they've been cheated on. And you know, a lot of my friends, you know, that are men I talk to and they tell me the same thing. So I, you know, there's there's somebody out there for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really admirable to to want to still find someone and like actually know that you can still put yourself out there, even in later in life or after being burned so many times, because I mean, I have friends who've been burned and they're young and they're so negative when it comes to dating and men and just how they approach relationships. And I mean, I get that there's like a humor in it to an extent when you're kind of hurt and you're you're like, oh, I'll never date again, or you know, men are the worst. But I think it's refreshing to actually see that, especially as you get older, because a lot of people I see this with my own parents and stuff, they people are so stuck in their ways that they're not open to changing or meeting new people and like putting themselves out there. So I think that's great.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

And especially like I'm a very social person, so you want to find somebody that's not a loner that doesn't want to be around people because then you have two people now you're matching up, and it starts to it's the relationship starts on a wrong, wrong note. Right. You know, I have a friend named Dr. Edith Edgar, she's a Holocaust survivor, and she's 98 years old. And at 90, when I first met her, she had a boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Excuse me, and she talked about still being romantic and relationships at 90. She's like my hero. And um it it's amazing because there was still love out there at 90.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah. So I think I think people kind of feel like, oh, you know, if I don't get married by this time, like it's just I'm never gonna be able to have this passion. And I think it's surprising how much enjoyment you can get out of someone even after you've lived like all of these lives, and the end is not the end. Like, uh, I I just think it's fascinating because I know like personally, my dad has been married a few times, and when I talk to him about his personal relationships, I'm always like struck by how he he's lived like so many lives, and this is like the obviously he's been married to my mom the longest of his marriages, but it's I'm like, wow, you've had you have because I have half siblings, and I'm like, wow, you have like all these experiences, and like you think your life's gonna go one way and it goes a totally different way, but it's for the best sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Yeah, well, you know, it's not just about um emotional, mental, it's physical too. You know, people um like I hear all these things like they're married 30 years and they're sleeping in separate bedrooms, and I mean, how do they stay married? And they go, Oh, we're married for the kids. I mean, they don't have a life, yeah, and then they wonder why people go out and cheat on each other. Yeah, it's a give and take. Relationships are a give and take, and you and it goes both ways, right? You know, you can't take and not give up.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Do you think it's important to know how to be alone and learn to like love yourself by yourself?

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Very funny that you mentioned that. I am working on that.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

You're right.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

I have I have been divorced now over 15 years, and do I like being alone? No, I I like being in a relationship, yeah. I like hugging and waking up with that person's face next to me in the morning. Yeah, you know, I I'm I miss the romance, I miss the compatibility and the friendship, and I miss it all. Right. But I just don't want to jump into another bad relationship.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

And what was sort of your model relationship that you had growing up? Like how were your parents and and well, my parents both worked like way too much.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

And my dad owned a bar, he was unfortunately robbed and killed when I was a little girl.

unknown 34:00

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

When I was 16. But looking at my parents, um, it's funny that you mentioned that because I was just discussing this with one of my best friends last night. I don't think they had that romantic um lovey-dovey relationship. I think that my dad um loved somebody else before he married my mother. My best friend told me that he was in love with her aunt, which I was shocked to hear. But you know, as you travel down the road and find out about your parents, you find out different things in life.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

But my parents both worked 24-7. Um, my dad um had bought a bar, and my mother worked for a wholesale meathouse during the day. Then after she was done working there, she went and worked at my dad's bar till two o'clock in the morning with him because they had bartenders stealing money from them. So they didn't have a life, you know. Um growing up, my brother and I were always at our friend's house and we were left alone quite a bit. So I think that's why the the family unit is so important to me, right? And having a relationship with somebody that really cares and that's invested in it is very important.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, it seems like a lot of couples, especially back in the day, more went through kind of the motions in order just like to keep their family together rather than find lead in their happiness. I think like divorce was more frowned upon and it was just not something that was done. And I'm sure mental health wasn't even talked about enough that it would be addressed, like I'm not happy and this is why, and you know, couples therapy and things like that wasn't really prevalent. And there they obviously were working too much to even get there.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

I went to couples therapy with my second husband. Oh, you did? Yeah, he had a we both have issues, I guess, but he had a lot of issues, a lot of issues that he shouldn't have been married, right? Because he did not know how to give of himself, you know. His mother babied him his whole life, right? So it's like giving to an a relationship as a partner, I did not feel like he gave back.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

And you know, um, I don't I wasn't asking for a lot. Just give me a little love letter with a little heart. I love you.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, you know, little gestures.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

People want to feel appreciated. I will tell you, I think therapy is so important.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

I I actually um um started um talking to a therapist about my relationships and and things because everything stems from your childhood, and sometimes we're afraid of different things and afraid of being alone, afraid of and maybe that's why you stay in a relationship so long.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

And it's very important to find out who you are, where you're going, what's on your pet your journey path, and how you're gonna get there. Absolutely, and loving yourself is the most important. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah, I feel like there's so many aspects to your relationship that people don't think about going into it and how important therapy, like a tool like therapy, can be for people who maybe don't communicate the way they are supposed to and have maybe a different attachment styles or different love languages, even. I mean, if you believe in those sort of things, but I think a lot of people like if that passion and that that actual love is there, then there's like all of these uh layers to it that you that you need to make it work and make it strong. Um obviously for some people it can be pretty easy and you know some people just have a knack at like communicating and it comes easily to them.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

I'll tell you there's signs also. I'll like I would be walking with my husband and he'd walk real fast ahead of me. I wanted to walk and hold hands, you know. And uh, you know, sometimes we don't see the signs that are there because we're so obsessed with being in love and obsessed with being married and being in a relationship, and you know, I know for me, um, I'm a very romantic person.

unknown 38:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

I like to sit down and have somebody hold my hand all the time. Yeah, I like somebody to find the beauty and what I have to offer in a relationship, right? And it doesn't have to be the physical beauty, it's just the beauty of somebody loving you and appreciating who they are, and that if you get sick, who's gonna be there for you in life? Is that person gonna be there to take care of you? Right. And I I see um my best friend has a great husband, and she had uh broken her leg and he took care of her every single day. And you know what? That's love.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, that's somebody who cares, truly unconditional. It's hard to find. And those things kind of show you who someone is too when those things happen. So sometimes you get married and you you know, I think I think now people date for like a really long time before getting married, but and that's how they kind of learn, okay, they'll be good husbands or not, but that wasn't always the case years ago. So people get married pretty quickly, and then you learn as you go. So sometimes the signs just come out, but yeah, I think we're for your relationship, was there was there a sign leading up to the marriage, or did it come out later after he started doing drugs and things?

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Oh yes, and I did not go with my gut. Everybody told me not to marry him.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Really?

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Um one of the things is he would um disappear and say he was going out for a pack of cigarettes or whatever, and he'd be at a corner bar gambling all his money away. Um, one day I opened a drawer and I found a this little bottle, and I didn't have a clue what it was, and he was doing drugs.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

So, you know, you approach them and then they they're they start crying, they're gonna stop, they're sorry. This happened right before I was getting married, and I was gonna walk out of it. And we had the wedding plans and everything else, the engagement party, and you know, it's like we don't want to be embarrassed to say, Oh, I'm not getting married, or whatever. Instead, I should have walked out of the relationship, right? But I didn't, and they always say that they're gonna get better, they're gonna get better, and sometimes it's just conversation, right? So, and when you don't live in that world, like I I mentioned, Stephanie, you don't know who that person is because you're thinking maybe they're having um emotional problems or whatever, but it's so important to see the signs on everything, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Like you make excuses for them and everything, compulsive, oh absolutely, yeah, yeah. So, and from your first marriage, which was obviously shorter, but how did it end up lasting for three years? When did you find out about the infidelity?

SPEAKER_04 41:35

And and obviously there's more to that because you know um you see, you know, his mother came to visit visit us a lot, also. And um mothers love you. God, I'm a saint. And um he had a um a son from another marriage that was in an abusive home, and I actually was friendly with Frank Sinatra, and Frank made a phone call and helped us get custody of his son. So because I didn't have children and I wanted children, I loved up his son for three years. I got to spend time and be a mom, which I loved. And um, I think that's what kept the relationship going for three years. But the whole time my first husband was cheating on me, and um, you know, we had just bought a house and bought a new car, and yeah, you know, I had my business, and you know, you live in the fear. That's the problem. When you stay in a wrong relationship, you live in the fear, and then you know, I, you know, I loved his son. I was the stepmother, and I I didn't want to devastate his son by picking up and and leaving and and have him be in a dysfunctional household again.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

So I'm uh I stay in as long as I can until you know it's time to ready, ready to go, but I didn't listen to those signs. I just stayed too long.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

And I talk about um cheating a bit because I've experienced it myself, and it's it's interesting. Um, I always think there's like kind of a spectrum when it comes to infidelity, and um, it's never okay, but I think there's like I said, a spectrum in in what if if it's fixable or not, or like where it comes from and where it doesn't, and you know, the dynamics and who's involved and everything. And you said that he cheated with your competitor, which is like a double dagger to the heart.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Yeah. And why didn't somebody tell me before I got married?

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Right. I think I think friends try to, especially Especially friends, sometimes when you're with someone, they see you're so happy, they try to protect you by, you know, not speaking up about like I don't like this person, or maybe they're not right for you because you don't want to offend them and push them away. But in the end, it usually ends up being that the people who are outside of it know you best and see that something's not right. And unfortunately that's they also help you waste your time.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

So if there was a piece of advice you could give anyone like navigating a high-pressure career with complex relationships, personal challenges, anything, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Well, to women that are in an unhappy abusive relationship, if you're in an abusive relationship, um find your best friend, find find an alternative to try to remove yourself out of that relationship. Don't become confrontational with that person if they're confrontational. Um do the best you can to get out of that relationship. Also, there's women's help groups that you know and places they can help you get out, especially if you're in a really bad and dangerous relationship. Absolutely. Um if you're unhappy, why are you staying? Yeah, why are you staying if you're unhappy? There's somebody out there that will make you happy. Right. And if it takes a little while to find them, it takes a little while.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Um don't give up. You know, there's somebody out there, and if if you don't find somebody, immediately find yourself.

unknown 45:47

That's fine.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Fall in love with yourself, and um don't bring all the negatives into your new relationship, telling your new boyfriend, oh my husband did this, my husband did that. It's not important. Yeah, you're meeting somebody new, it's all about the new.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

That's so true. And if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would that be?

SPEAKER_04 46:10

To my younger self?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Your friends aren't all bad. You should have listened. At least open your eyes and listened.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

Uh, not that all of us do that, but I should have.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

And um that you are still in a young head with uh with a higher age, you've learned from your mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

And move forward.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

That's great. I love that so much. Well, Jackie, it was so nice having you on the podcast. Thank you, Stephanie. It's been a pleasure. I would love to stay in touch and uh I would love that. Yeah, I will I'll make sure to link your website and have you know, if anyone listening is in Vegas who wants to be in the entertainment industry, can contact you if they're talented enough.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Thank you. And I know a few people that probably you would love to have on your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

I would love that. Yeah, definitely send them my way. I will. Thank you so much. Join our community. Subscribe now to head case. Because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.