"Getting Cheated On Was the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me" - Michelle Seydel

This episode dives deep into the emotional aftermath of being cheated on and what it really takes to rebuild your sense of self, standards, and relationships. Michelle Seydel shares a raw, unfiltered story of discovering infidelity in the middle of a family trip and making a decisive exit without looking back. What follows isn’t just heartbreak... it’s a complete mindset shift.

At the core of this conversation is a powerful reframe: being cheated on isn’t the end. It’s often the wake-up call. Michelle breaks down why betrayal is rarely about you and almost always about the other person’s unresolved issues, low self-worth, or addiction patterns. The discussion explores how gut instincts, subtle behavioral changes, and “guilt gifts” can signal deeper dishonesty long before proof appears.

The episode doesn’t romanticize closure. Instead, it challenges the idea that you need it at all. Sometimes the way someone leaves, lies, or fails to fight for you is the closure. The real work begins afterward... rebuilding self-worth, detaching from the fantasy of who you thought they were, and confronting the patterns that led you there in the first place.

Michelle opens up about dating after betrayal, including a second relationship built on deception that reinforced a key lesson: consistency and truth matter more than grand gestures. The conversation highlights how being hurt can sharpen your standards, if you let it.

Sobriety becomes another unexpected turning point. Removing alcohol brought clarity, better emotional regulation, and more intentional dating choices. The episode explores how alcohol can mask incompatibility and lead to poor partner selection, while sobriety forces you to connect more authentically.

Key themes throughout include:

•  Why staying after cheating often leads to long-term anxiety and mistrust 
•  The danger of idealizing partners and ignoring red flags 
•  How self-awareness determines who you attract 
•  Why loneliness is better than misalignment 
•  The illusion of being “replaced” and why it’s rooted in insecurity 
•  Letting go of the need to fix or save people 
•  Choosing partners who actively improve your life 

Ultimately, this episode is about radical self-respect. It argues that the moment you truly believe you deserve better, your dating life and your tolerance for dysfunction changes completely.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Therapy is too expensive. Used to be the end of the conversation. But what if it didn't have to be? With Grow Therapy, care is designed to be affordable, insurance-friendly, and easy to understand. With no subscriptions, just support that fits your life and your budget. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over a hundred insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com slash headcase today to get started. That's grow therapy.com slash headcase. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Welcome back to Headcase. I'm Stephanie Hoffman. This season, we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human. Let's dive in. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Headcase. This episode, we have a very special guest, my good friend, Michelle Seidel. She's a content creator located in LA. We've been through a lot of ups and downs with relationships. So welcome, Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Thanks. It's crazy too because when you were living here, I remember we did like a mock episode of this. And I just feel like so much of your opinions on the topic have kind of changed since then. So I'm like really excited to kind of hear what your stance is now.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we did this whole mock-up episode, and Michelle is actually the one who was like, you should do your podcast on relationships this season and talk about getting cheated on and making up and being in a healthy relationship after that, which obviously things have changed. My trailer episode is different. I don't live in LA anymore. Um, a lot has happened, but so and Michelle has some great advice and you know you you have been through a lot yourself in the past two relationships you were in. So can you tell me a little bit about that first relationship and what you went through?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah, for sure. I mean, first off, I want to say if you have just been cheated on and you're listening to this because you're looking for some kind of guidance on what to do, I just want to say, congratulations because this was the best thing that could have ever happened to you. Um, the man who cheated on me, I want to say, I mean, it was in my late 20s. It was during the time of my Saturn return, if you know astrology, but um he was a major lesson for me. Um, he he just sucked. Like, I don't know how else to say it, but um it he did me the biggest favor because I think about what my life would have been if he hadn't have done that. And it just like completely changed my perspective. Basically, my situation was I had been in a relationship with a guy for about a year. Um, and I found out at you know, 3, 4 a.m. that he had been cheating on me with his girl best friend. Um, and it's actually funny because of the way that I left, he actually has no, no one in his family probably has any idea what happened. Like if they're listening to this, it's gonna be the first time any of them actually find out what happened and how I found out. Um basically I just had a gut feeling. Like he started acting super weird. Um, and two, like I have a saying, it says nothing says guilty like a random present. So if all of a sudden a man starts doing the things for you that you've always wanted him to do out of the blue, just now it's not, it's not random. Like he feels guilty about something. He's he didn't just wake up and get you the present you've been asking for. He did something. You just figure out what it is. And if you have a gut feeling, do not ignore that. Um, but yeah, I just remember I had a strong gut feeling for weeks that he was lying to me, that something was off. Um, and he had changed his phone password before I had known his phone password, but I had just not gone through it. Cause I was like, I just trust him. And then when I started not trusting him and I went to look, I was like, oh, he's changed it. That's not good. Um, and yeah, there was one night I just had a horrible feeling, horrible feeling. And we were literally on like a family reunion trip up in upstate New York, like worst worst place to find out. Um, and I remember his whole family was like, Are you okay? Like, you seem off. And I was like, Yeah, I just like I'm feeling super weird. I don't know. I'm just not gonna drink tonight. And he did the opposite. He was getting wasted all of the time because his anxiety was through the roof. He was like living double lives, like you could just tell something was going on with him. Um but yeah, I didn't drink and he ended up going out to the bar with his cousins. And I went home and I went to sleep. And when he came home, he was wasted, absolutely wasted, and he fell asleep watching a TV show on his phone. And I woke up and I looked over and he's passed out, and I plucked his phone out of his hand, and I was going through all the girls. I thought it may be I was in his Instagram, all these things, because I just never suspected it was this girl for just so many reasons I won't name. But um, but yeah, all I saw was him trying to cheat and like getting rejected, which was like almost worse than him cheating. I was like, wow, like no one wants to hook up with this man. Like he's like trying to cheat on me and no one wants to. Um, and then I was like, let me go through his girl best friend's text and see if maybe he said something to her. And that's when I started seeing text about them like to meet up. Hey, you're out of toothpaste. Like on all of the nights where I didn't spend the night there. He had like canceled um going to my cousin's wedding a week before and said it was he blamed his dog. And it was actually so he could drive up to a wedding she was at in Richmond. We were in Atlanta at the time, um, and hook up with her at a hotel, like on the way. And then he picked me up from the airport the next day. Um, yeah, no, he was a real treat. But what I did was I didn't take any screenshots. I was like, I don't care who believes me about this, I genuinely don't care. I I had seen what I needed to see, and I just saw and I was like, there's no world where I forgive him or we have a normal relationship after this. Like I've I'd kind of been through it before. I dated a hockey player before, and we definitely had some cheating scares. Um, and so I was just like, I know what the relationship's gonna be, and I want no part of it. And I just remember being like, I don't need one scrap of proof. Like, I don't need to take one screenshot. I never want to see this conversation ever again in my life.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

And I yeah, I closed the phone and I threw it on the bed and I I woke him up, turned on the lights, and I said, Hey, I know about your mistress. Do you have anything to say? I'm leaving. And this man was so, so wasted. He could barely like sit up, look me in the eye. And he was just like, guess we're fucked up. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go now. Yeah, so I packed up all my stuff and I literally left. I I it was four o'clock in the morning. I was at his grandparents' house in upstate New York. His grandparents had a gravel driveway. My suitcases were 70 pounds, and I'm dragging them across the gravel, get in the Uber, call my mom, just cried all the way to my friend's house in New Jersey. Luckily, my friend was like awake and I went to her place. And then next morning he had the audacity to text me, Hey, did I have a weird dream or did you leave?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And I was like, You gotta be kidding me. But I mean didn't even remember.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Didn't even remember. And I remember I didn't respond. He's like, Hey, did you go into the city? And I was like, Are you safe? And so I just was like, I'm just gonna let him know I'm safe. I don't need him like causing a whole thing, like texting my family, my friends. And I just said, you know, I'm safe. I know about you, you in blank. And he was like, nothing happened, but like glad you're okay. I was like, listen, babe, I've seen all the text messages, I know. And he tried to tell me, like, nothing happened when we were together, all this stuff. He was claiming that we like had broken up at some point, and like he was just like grabbing for anything. And then he said, But sounds like you have your mind made up and this is wrapped. I'll never forget that was the last thing he said to me. Because I was like, you know what? I'm actually gonna let that be the last thing you ever say to me in my entire life. Because, like, what an insane thing to say after you've been cheating on somebody for six weeks. And I blocked him on everything, and yeah, I ran into him nine months later at the gym, and he was like, What are you what are you doing here, girl? Like he looked at me like we were best friends, and I was like, That's crazy. Um, other than that, we never talked again. I let him keep all the stuff that was at his apartment. I probably had like over a thousand dollars worth of skincare and clothes and everything. I just caught it a loss. I was like, keep it. I don't want anything from you ever again.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah, sometimes it's just not worth it. You just have to take the L in that case. But I think that last text he sent you, I still think about it. Yeah, him saying this is wrapped. I couldn't think of a crazier ending to a relationship. I mean, you don't even get closure. So what how did you feel after that? I know you and I have like a really great sense of humor when it comes to getting heartbroken or traumatic experiences, but it obviously has to eat away at you at some point.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Oh, yeah. After luckily, I was like my my cousins have a place in New York and they were up in the Hamptons. It's extremely, extremely fortunate because I was like, I can't go back to Atlanta right now. I feel I was like, I need to just deal with this somewhere else. It's incredibly hurtful because it's not like too like he was really distant. Like the week before I found out he was cheating, he like introduced me to a pastor at his grandparents' house, and he's like, This is the pastor I want to marry us. Like, it's not like he was, you know, saying, Oh, we're having problems. Like he was digging himself in a deeper hole, like trying to get more serious. And we were talking about moving in with each other. So I think like there was a lot of me that like had to mourn, I think, what was almost promised to me or what I thought was going to be more than like the person. Also, too, like he was my best friend in a lot of ways. I was in New York and I remember I was walking like 20, 25 miles a day. I was listening to podcasts about people that had been cheated on and just trying to understand how someone I loved could have done this to me. Because I was just like, this person was my best friend. This person was telling me this, he was doing this. Like, how did I not see this? Like, yeah. And it's just kind of realizing that it had nothing to do with me. I mean, I was reading books, like I was just like doing anything to just be like, this had nothing to do with me because my self-worth was like in the garbage at that point. Because like when we would get in arguments, he would try to convince me I was this person I wasn't. Like he would try to convince me I was saying things I wasn't saying, doing things I wasn't doing to our, I was starting to feel crazy. Like I was when I think back to the person I was, I mean, I felt like the stump from the giving tree. I just felt like I was giving so much to try to make the relationship work. And it just was never enough. He just kept taking and taking and taking. So I also too, like one of my friends is kind of dealing with a breakup right now with an addict. And unfortunately, my ex that cheated on me was an addict. And I think there is something to say about somebody, especially functioning addicts. Like cheating is very common with people who struggle with addiction. And my ex that cheated on me was a nicotine addict, an alcoholic. Like in so many ways, he was a functioning alcoholic and all of these things. Um, and I think cheating just kind of goes hand in hand. But I think, like, with addiction, it's so closely tied to narcissism. I remember a therapist at the time, uh, because I was calling him a narcissist, and she was like, babe, he's just an addict. She was like, the traits of narcissism and the traits of addiction are just so closely tied, it's just a dopamine thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

But I don't even remember what's going off about why that was relevant. Um, and it just has nothing to do with you, and that's so true. I I mean, after I was cheated on, I I went through the same thing. And I think when you're broken up with and you don't know why, and you find out why, if it like in my scenario, finding out it was cheating almost was more of a relief because you it gives you an answer that it's not really about you. And I know everyone takes takes it differently. I mean, obviously it you're like, what did I do? Am I not enough? Why would he be interested in someone else? But if you really read those books and listen to people's stories, it really rarely has anything to do with the other person. It's always about the person who cheated and their lack of self-worth and their their inability to amount to the person that they said they were when you started teaching.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

No, because a healthy person would just say, Hey, I'm not feeling XYZ in this relationship. I need this from you. Um, and kind of as I get older, and the more I know myself and the more I understand what I deserve, the more I realize I'm not gonna stay in situations I'm not happy. So if somebody's not giving me what I want, I'm not gonna stay in the relationship and cheat on them. I'm gonna go find somebody else that can give me those things. Um, and unfortunately, when somebody cheats, it's really tough. Like I dealt with this in my, I guess, second serious relationship. I did it a hockey player for a long time and he would be long distance away at games and you know, away in a different city for the whole season. Um, and you know, we had a lot of, I guess, emotional cheating, maybe scares and you know, probably physical. I just never found out about it. But I will say, like, after the first time it happens and you decide to stay with them, you have like this constant anxiety every time they don't answer your text messages, every time you don't know every like where they are, every time something's not adding up. Oh my God, they did this to me again. Even if they haven't, it's just like this constant anxiety that it's just not worth it. So for me, everyone, like I get cheating is really complex, like especially in situations where maybe it was like they got wasted and made a bad decision. Do I throw away the whole relationship kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Like a one-time thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, but unfortunately, it's just that thought never goes away of like, are they gonna do it again? Right. And I think like if I've learned anything in my, you know, 34 years, it's that every single time I've dated somebody, they've been better than the last person I dated in some way.

unknown 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So it's just why right, yeah. It's just know yourself more and you know what you want and you don't want. So you don't look for that in your next partner. So it's just why would you stay in a relationship where you're gonna be anxious when you can just go meet somebody else? Unfortunately, people are replaceable. Like, yeah, yeah. Like that, like everyone's unique. Yes, you're not gonna date that person again, but there's so many things where it's like, thank God, you're not gonna date that person again. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

You know? Yeah. I think if you're in a relationship with someone and you obviously it's there's gray areas to the cheating and betrayals and stuff, but I think if you are giving that person a second chance, you have to do it completely free of any doubt and mistrust and harboring any ill feelings towards them because if you do, then that's just not a relationship. You're not gonna you're not gonna grow, you're just gonna stick stay in the past, and that is such a hard thing to do. That's something that's even I I thought I was completely okay with that in my relationship. And looking back, I think I was just numb, and that numbness was like a different way of dealing with it that I thought it was like I was like, maybe I just don't care that much.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah. Um yeah, and like unfortunately, it's one of those things where it's like cheating is like a self-worth issue. A lot of times, yes, it is a mistake, but at the same time, you know, you've gone out and you've drank too much before, and you you weren't like, I'm gonna cheat on this person that I love, you know. I think in very, very rare cases it is just an accident. I got too messed up thing. But I will say, like, because I hate to be black and white. I really do, I really try to be open-minded about stuff. I don't want to say all because I don't want to like scare people or whatever, but I I genuinely think in every situation in my personal life that I know of people personally that have been cheated on, they've gotten cheated on when they've gotten back with their partner again. I know that's not every situation. I know there's exceptions, all these things, but like, unless your partner comes to you and is like, I realize that this was something having to do with me and my own self-worth, and I'm gonna go to therapy and I'm gonna fix this issue. Like, you need to move on. Do not waste your time because it's just so much has to do with the other person and how they feel about themselves, how they probably don't feel worthy of being with somebody like you. And it's probably true, you know. I think like me being cheated on, I took a really good look at myself. I put all my energy into like being like, why did I attract somebody like this? How did I let them get me into this place? And I I spent over a year just single and I was on a really good routine. I would wake up, I would gratitude journal, I had a success journal where I had my goals, and then I had a journal where I just wrote and talked about, you know, everything that was going on in my life and the journaling and the self-reflection. I just completely rewired my mindset of like looking on the bright side of things. I think that's really important. Um, and yeah, I think my biggest takeaway and regret when I think about healing from that situation is I gave him so many allowances of like, oh, he's an addict or he has trauma, like he feels bad. He doesn't know how to like communicate with me. And like I just told myself all of these things because it was easier for me to accept those things. Like it, you know, he loved me the whole time. I wasn't wasting my time. He just he had problems within himself, he had therapy he needed to do. He was just a shitty person. Like he, sorry, but like he was just a shitty, unhealed person. And it's so crazy. I actually, my friend Timmy recently reached out to me and she said, Hey, when did you and let's call him Colin? When did you and Colin break up? And I was like, what a random question, because it was almost four years ago. And I said, July of 2022. Why? And she goes, So crazy. Um, he's dating my friend's cousin. They started dating July of 2022. And the girl that he's dating, they're still together to this day, somehow, by some miracle, maybe they're soulmates, but um more power to her. Um, but yeah, no, he immediately hit her up. I guess they had like hooked up prior, I guess before we started dating. Maybe they were talking the whole time. I don't know. But he started dating someone immediately after. Here I was for months after we broke up, sitting there thinking he misses me, he just doesn't know how to talk to me, like telling myself, no, this man immediately moved on. He was already in another relationship. He moved on to his next victim. He completely just like blocked out whatever he did. And that's like most of the time, what people like addicts do is they just pile on their trauma and they don't deal with it. He's and that's just like a pattern. Yeah. So I think if you are dating someone that struggles with addiction, make sure that they are very self-aware because and that they've they they are very responsible about handling their trauma because unfortunately, I just made so many excuses for him when I shouldn't have. And you know, I just was fooling myself. I was just wasting my own time. So I think back on to when I was healing, and I just the only thing I wish is that I just accepted the truth sooner was that this man didn't care about me. I don't care if he said he did, I don't care if he was promising to marry me. If he cared about me, he wouldn't have done this to me for six weeks with somebody that I knew. That somebody like his best friend was pretending to be my best friend. Just so many things about it where it was just clowning me essentially. Introducing me to his family, introducing me to the pastor that was gonna marry us. Crazy. It's wild. Yeah, I think just kind of accepting the reality and like not focusing on the good times because that's what I was doing too. I was looking back at the relationship and I was like, I'm only looking at all of the amazing things. I'm not looking at all of the horrific fights we would get in, you know, where there would just be no way. Yeah. And I was just like, I felt insane because he was telling me I was doing and saying these things I wasn't doing. And I was like, Am I just gaslighting you? Yes. I was like, am I crazy? How am I forgetting these entire events? I'm a pretty logical person too. Like, I don't raise my voice, I stay, like I don't scream. Um, and I'm not a hurtful person. I don't like hurting people. So, all right, I live in a homeless encampment. Um, there was a part where I was just like questioning my own sanity. And it's just I that was the bulk of the relationship. The relationship wasn't the good times we were having as best friends. Like, and it's just not fulfilling to be with somebody like that. It's just we can't romanticize the relationship into something that it wasn't because if it was a good relationship, this wouldn't have happened. You know, if it was a good person, it wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

The cons don't out if the cons outweigh the pros, then you know you're looking back on the relationship like you're grasping for straws, you're trying to find something that makes sense. It's your brain is trying to find a reason, a solution, and um to to make it make sense, especially an ending of a relationship like that that has no real closure and you never really got the closure that people look for in a relationship. And in that way, it's almost you almost did in a way though, that was it it wasn't you know tied in a bow for you, but it was it was he showed you who he was and you believed him and you didn't it he didn't he didn't fight back, he was just like okay, this is this is done then, bye. And that is the that is the closure in some ways. That's what you needed to see.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Well, and what's crazy too is when we broke up, I guess he had just been also fighting with his friend group, his entire friend group. Um, and you know, I had only ended up in Atlanta because I got stuck there over COVID. So I didn't really have friends there. I'd been living in New York, and so his I was friends with his friends. And when I found out he cheated, his friend group literally reached out to me and they were like, Hey, we actually think he's A bad person, and we don't like what he did, and we think you're cool. Please hang out with us. We don't talk to him anymore. Yeah. And I'm like, that tells you everything you need to know. That's everything. Yeah, that his friends were so quick to just be like, Yeah, we actually like don't think this behavior is okay. And like, yeah, you didn't deserve it. You don't condone this. Yeah. Yeah. And what's crazy is well, when I ran into him like nine months later, um, I remember the only reason I went up and talked to him. I saw him at the gym, and then I saw him in another time. I was playing volleyball outside with my friends, and he came out with his dog and was throwing the ball. And he had, I swear, because he had an apartment that overlooked where I was playing volleyball. We like shared a courtyard essentially from our apartment buildings. And I swear he saw me out there and he brought the dog because he knew that I would come and, you know, talk to the dog. Yeah, I hadn't seen the dog since we broke up. The dog was at the mom's house and I was at the grandparents' house. I never got to say goodbye to this dog that I essentially, you know, was in my life for a year and my dog had passed away. So there was all this weird trauma. That was another heartbreak. Um, but I remember I went up to him and I was still in my head giving him a benefit of the doubt. Maybe if I'm nice to him, he'll apologize and he'll own up to what he did. Just because I was still living that lie in my head. Like I was holding on to that truth because it was just so much less painful. And I remember he was like, So you're hanging out with uh Alex, one of our friends, like one of his old friends. And because Alex was out playing volleyball with us, and I was just like, he was like, Yeah, it's kind of crazy that you just became friends with my friends like after we broke up. And that's the thing. It's like his close friends weren't really my close friends. Like, I was kind of close with friends that were in like the middle of these other friends. It wasn't like I was intentionally only friends with his friends. I was like very casual friends with his specific friend group. And he kind of just was still trying to make me into a bad person. Like he was making this narrative like with these the girls I was close with, he wasn't even friends with. I didn't even know him like anything. He had was trying to twist the narrative until I was doing it despite him and all these things, never apologized, nothing. And I was just like, these lies I've been telling myself about, you know, all he needs is for me to be nice and then I'll get the apology. I'm like so deserving of. And he just all he cared about was himself, how I was friends with some of his friends now. All of these things that still weren't true. I really wasn't close with his close friends and all of these things where I was just like, oh, something went off that the light bulb clicked, and I was like, Oh, he's just sucks. He's just as a terrible person. And then after that, I was over it. I just kind of it kind of been weighing on me for a minute. And then the second I just accepted he's just a bad person, I'd be like Clarity, freedom. Yeah. And so I was just like, damn, I wish someone had shaken me this whole time and just said, because all I was doing was putting a band-aid on a wound that just needed to literally be sprayed with saline. And yeah, it sucks at first, where you're just like, oh fuck, I hurt sorry to mean it ghosts, but like where you're just like, oh wow, that that hurt. And then all of a sudden it's clean and then it starts healing. And then, you know, so it's just accepting that truth initially is so hard and it's gonna be painful. But once you accept the reality and the truth of the situation, instead of living in what could be or what was promised to you, or the good of the relationship, or who you think he is, you know, not who he's showing himself to be, but what the version you're making up in your head of why he is this way, why he did that. As soon as you accept the reality of no, this is not a healed, healthy person, a healed, healthy person would have sat me down, had a conversation with me, and said, I'm feeling XYZ in this relationship. I think I may want to see other people. There's no reason on this earth that somebody can't sit you down and say that I'm having problems with you, especially somebody that loves doing cares, but there's no excuse. There's zero, literally zero excuse. Like that if there's anyone on this earth that you should feel comfortable sitting down and expressing concerns to, it should be your partner that you're literally being intimate with.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

So I think he I think he probably tried to paint you as the bad guy in this scenario to make himself feel better. So he was like, Let me think of everything that was wrong with her, wrong with the relationship. So I can make it okay that I was this rude and and hurtful and honestly evil in the way I went about things. And you know, yes, like you look back and you're like, why didn't someone shake me? But it just it wouldn't have made a difference. You needed to come to that. Sometimes it just takes a certain moment or certain realization just to hit you. And then the clarity comes and then you're you're able to move on.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

A thousand percent. And I remember because I was really close with his family, his sister, especially, um, of just what are they gonna think? Because I had known from the sister and some of the stuff that I had talked to her about that he was already lying to her about, you know, things I was doing, saying he was kind of just painting me as this horrible person.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

And I just was like the only person, not the only person. I mean, I really loved his family, but really loved his sister. And I just remember being like, I just need her to know that this was not, this was so out of my control. Cause we had just gotten so close. And I had been telling her actually for weeks, I think he's cheating on me. I literally was talking to the sister about it. And she was like, no, Colin is not a cheater. He would never do that. Like he may be going through XYZ, but he would never cheat on you. So I was like kind of making me feel better where I was like, okay. And so when I found out that he had, I just sent her a text message and I was like, Hey, can you talk? And she she sent something back, very respectful, like, you know, I really love and care about you. I just like I don't know how I'm supposed to be here for you. It was just very kind of I don't want to get involved text, which I totally understand. And I kind of just sent one back. I I not in like a crazy way, I just sent one back and I was like, okay, I just need you to know this is what happened. And I just explained the entire situation to her. And poor girl, I mean, it was so long. It wasn't a note long, but it was probably a few sentences away from turning into a name. Yeah. Um, but I felt better after because I was like, I just needed her to know that that was the case. And it sucks too, so much when you love the family. I always guys like you're grieving the family, yeah. Because like that's half the reason I stayed in it too, was I love that we both come from like these great families. And like, I don't know. I think I let him get away with stuff because I had this belief in my head, I'm never gonna find someone again that you think that the your person you're dating is so much better than they are. Everyone wants to hook up with them, everyone wants to date them, and when you kind of get away from them, you see them for what they truly are, and it's they're not usually that great.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

The rose-colored glasses, thousand percent. Yeah, yeah. So you also stopped drinking. And as someone who also is sober, it's I just find it well, how do you navigate dating now that you're sober? And when did you stop drinking? Because I feel you've been sober for uh four years now.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah. I mean, what's crazy is that I mean, I've never been a big drinker. I definitely had stages in my life where I was like, whoo, it's fun, you know. Like but I never feel the same way, yeah. Yeah, but I like, I mean, that's the thing. When I was dating Colin, he was a big drinker. Like, I was drinking so much, and my anxiety was probably the some of the worst that it's ever been in my entire life. And I'm not an anxious person. Um and I just remember I stayed drinking after we broke up because I was going out, I was having fun, I was living my life, and I was getting my boobs done. Like this way, that's what happened. I was getting my boobs done, and um, I didn't want to drink because I didn't want to be swollen essentially. So I didn't drink for a few weeks before the surgery and a few weeks after just for healing purposes. And I remember I was sleeping so well, I had zero anxiety. Um, and my face, like I get like a puffy face if I eat the wrong thing, drink the wrong thing. My face loves to puff up. Um, and so my face was like really like toned slim looking, and I was just like, hmm, I might be allergic to alcohol. Um, I think I just was like, I'm not gonna drink. And then my friend had a birthday in Cabo, and she was like, no one's drinking with me. Why is no one drinking anymore? And I was like, okay, I'll drink with you. So I drank, I had maybe one or two drinks that night. And the next morning, anxious, slept horribly, in a terrible mood the next day. Nothing about those true drinks last night was worth it. I didn't make the night more fun. Like, I'm already a fun person, I don't need alcohol. Um and yeah, I think I made a decision after that where I was like, it's not that I'm never gonna drink again. I'll drink when it's worth it. And then now I'm three and a half years later and I haven't had alcohol. Not because I'm like, I'm not drinking. It just hasn't been worth it to me to have anxiety, to sleep like shit. I genuinely have such a fun time with my friends. So I drink Diet Cokes all night long. I'm jazzed up on caffeine. Um, sometimes I'll have a Shirley Temperal. If they have like a great mocktail menu, I'll have that. Especially, I mean, I live in LA now. The mocktail choices are immaculate. Um, and so I think that kind of helps. And luckily in LA, a lot of people don't drink. So it makes my life a lot easier from that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

But super curious people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And I think too, if it's a problem with someone you're dating, like I think that's a red flag. You know, why is alcohol such a high priority? If anything, it shows like I'm healthy, you don't have to worry about me, you know, making bad decisions. I don't know. If anything, it should be a green flag to somebody that you're not drinking. And that's the thing. Some people handle alcohol better. It's not to say everyone needs to stop drinking. I personally was allergic to it, I think, or shouldn't drink it. That's not a normal, you know, symptoms after you drink. Um, and I think some people handle it better, some people love it, and that's fine. Um, just for me personally, like, I just I don't have anxiety around people. Like, I love waking up the next morning, especially too in LA. I'm consistently meeting really cool people, celebrities, all of these things, like really important people. And I wake up the next day and I'm like, thank God I wasn't drinking. Like, thank God I wasn't under the influence of anything because that person loves me now. We're friends, and I probably would have embarrassed myself had I been, you know, drinking. I literally was drinking too. It was too much fun. I had a name for my alter ego. I called her Mopsy, and I would be like, that was a Michelle that made out with her overdriver, that was Mopsy, because Michelle wouldn't done that, which was true. Like, you know. So no, I if someone has a problem with it, fuck them. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

I feel when you rely on drinking, especially while you're navigating dating and like finding your person, you can pick the wrong people. That was people use it as a crutch to get through social situations, people's personalities change, you just don't really know. So I think it's important, even if you do drink and that person drinks, or you don't drink and they do, you have to have situations where you're not drinking to get to know them. Because I can't imagine just building a relationship on constantly partying and being wasted and not actually knowing the person underneath that.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Why do you need a drink to loosen up? Are you hiding? You know, like why do you need a drink to be yourself? And I get it's nerve-wracking, yes, but how exciting, you know? Yeah. That feeling you get of like nervousness, the way I live my life about everything, not even just dating, is like when I'm 80 years old, am I gonna look back and be like, thank God I did XYZ? You know? And I think the 80-year-old version of you is gonna miss that nervous feeling and just be like, I wish I had been a little bit more in the moment for that. I wish I had like taken that feeling and just really, I don't know, I think you're gonna miss it. I think you're gonna miss being nervous. And you know, I think too, when you're nervous, that's it's quirky. I think it's what makes the other person relax. And I'm such a believer, too, in that everything happens for a reason. So if you go on a date and you're nervous and you say something stupid, not an accident. The universe was like saving you from being with the wrong person, you know? Yeah, and if someone scares that easily, then like you don't want to be with them anyways. Like, there's so many things where you have to stop being nervous because if a person was meant for you, like these things wouldn't happen. Like they, especially with cheating. Like, if that person was meant for you, like they probably wouldn't have cheated on you, you know? Sometimes, like, I will say I'm like a big believer, I'm very woo-woo. I don't know, but um, I just think sometimes you're in such a bad relationship that the universe was like, you are supposed to be with somebody else. And sometimes the universe just has to like slap you in the face and be like, wake up, not your person, get out. Like, you know, yeah. So unfortunately, like you just have to read into everything, whether it be them cheating, whether it be not clicking on a first date because you weren't wasted, and just see it for what it is and just be like, not my person. Like, because if it was my person, this wouldn't be happening.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Exactly. I think sometimes we just make that mistake where you stay in something too long, or you know, I give myself grace in that in that way, because sometimes you just you need to stay a little longer to see really to to see it through until you're ready. And in that way, I don't consider it a waste of time, but obviously you go back and forth. Did I waste a whole year and a half? Did I, you know, I could have been doing this and that, but you don't know until you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

So no, a thousand percent. I do. I have a friend right now who's currently going through a breakup. She was dating an addict, and he cheated on her, but he had relapsed. And um they broke up and they got back together after he cheated, maybe six months later. He said, You swear he changed, he was sober, he wasn't that person anymore. And I think that there was a part of her that was like, in order to accept that this isn't my person and that this relationship is like done, I need to date him sober and see what it is. And we got back together. He was cheating again and sober, like you know, I just I think you know, he was just a cheater at heart. And so it's one of those things that where she had to know herself. Like she could listen to her friends all day. He's gonna do it again, he's gonna do it again. But sometimes you have to experience it for yourself, and you just have to be like, I need to see this through. I need this person to just literally mess me up so badly to where I don't want to go back. And you just have to do it sometimes. Sometimes you just have to look like a clown and flag with the person. But that's what I'm saying. At the end of the day, you're gonna be the one at 80 looking back on your life. Like, do I regret not giving that person another chance? Maybe that was in my life. So it's just, it is your life. Who gives a fuck what anyone else is gonna say? If you have to clown yourself, clown yourself. You know, sometimes that's the only way you can move on.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

But eventually you're you will hit a point where you see the person clearly and you're like, I'm actually over this, and you move on, or you don't, maybe they change, but I think a lot of times in relationships, there are things that come out later that you avoid talking about, just differences come out and things that you don't really pick up on because you're just so in love or you're idealizing the person so much that you maybe you avoid talking about like the future, the big things in common, the the you don't have the same alignment. And and I think you know yes, I totally agree because in my relationship I remember because of the way the first breakup happened and how kind of abrupt it felt, I felt I had to see this through because if I I just didn't want to wonder what if, and now I and now I don't wonder that. So in that way I don't regret it, but obviously, you know it's time it's time you don't get back, but also again, it's kind of outweighing the pros and cons of the lesson that you're given. But I definitely I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot of lessons through that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

So I in that way I don't it's not like I I regret it, I also again everything is there's gray areas to things, but yeah, I well I think like the main difference too between my relationship and your relationship was my friends hated him, hated him, they were like, he sucks, and you need to break up with him. We don't like him. Whereas like we all loved your ex. He fooled everybody. We were all just like he's obsessed with stuff, nicest, funniest guy. We love him, and it he fooled everybody. Whereas my ex was just sucked and everyone hated him, you know. So I think with your situation, it was a lot more understandable that you had forgiven him because we were all like, we love him, and this doesn't seem aligned with who he is. And he the way he would look at you and all these things, we were just like, he's so obsessed with her, you know. Yeah, he fucked up XYZ. We were almost making excuses for him. So when you got back with him, we were like, Yeah, you know what? Like, we love him too, give him another chance, especially because you had given it a break and you had dated other people, and you were just like, I need to see this, I need to get back with him, I need to see it through. And you know, I think given the circumstances, you guys were in a distancing, and it was definitely like a different situation than me and Colin's, which was like, we weren't in distance. That man had no excuse, he sucked. I see when I look at your reasoning for getting back together with him, it makes sense to me. I think in my situation, it made zero sense for me to get back with Colin. He was gonna do it again, he hated himself, he was a bad person. Whereas with your ex-boyfriend, it was just one of those situations where it's not so black and white. It was a very gray area, but it was a different situation, and it did make sense for you to revisit that and like see it through because I think it was something you needed too.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah, and I had just moved to LA, I was grieving there and going through the motions, but at the same time, I we did so much talking and so much uh uh communication that I think needed to happen even before it got to that point that we had just been avoiding, and then it just hit a wall later, and you know, obviously um we broke up before I even found out about the cheating for the second time, but um yeah, I mean it definitely gave me a sense of it was a weird sense of betrayal the second time because you're like I'm not with you, but kind of my image of who you are is is tainted now because I thought it was almost amicable, and now it that's just ruined in some way because I don't want anything to do with you now. No, a thousand percent. Yeah, I mean I I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I'm just a very empathetic person, so I in some ways I do just feel bad for him, and you know, I think he has demons he's working through, and it again, I just don't it just has nothing to do with me, and I think I was already kind of dealing with things in the relationship and slowly grieving it in some ways, so it was just a different I had a different reaction than I did the first time, and also the first time he told me about it, the second time the girl told me about it, so it was just different, but it it's still betrayal, it's just a different feeling, and uh it makes you question yourself and your judgment, and I think that's the worst part about getting cheated on is just how you you're like, What what is wrong with me and my picker?

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Why can't I pick the right no, but I'm glad you said that because I really do think that if you are attracting a certain type of guy, you need to stop dating because there is a certain belief you have about yourself or like there's a reason. You can just say, Oh, it's just dumb luck. No, you attract people on the energy level that you're on, on the frequency you're on, you attract people that are like you. So if you don't like what you're attracting, you need to take a break from dating because it's just like you're there's a reason you're attracting that. And a lot of times it's because that pure that person's mirroring you. So it's just if you don't like what you're seeing, take a look in the mirror, babe, because you were clicking with that person because you're similar, and you know, or else you wouldn't have put up with it for as long as you did. Because I think accepting their flaws is kind of saying this isn't okay and this thing that I do isn't okay for whatever reason, you know, or it may not be a similarity. It may be why do I date people that, you know, are long like I I love an international thing because I swear I'm avoidant now. Why do I love men that don't live in the same city with me that are in complete different time zones? Yeah. Um and it's because there's a part of me that's avoidant and it's scary to date somebody that's here that's real, that's really making me prone to being hurt, like all of these things where it's just like be self-aware of why you're choosing these partners because it's not just dumb luck. Like there's a belief you have about yourself, or you know, maybe you're in a similar place, but it's not it's not for just no reason at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah, I think not even wanting to live in that place and just be long distance is is just a sign that maybe you have a commitment issue or you are avoidant. But yeah, that leads me to your relationship after that, and this is why I understand why you would be avoidant in relationships in general, because your your relationship after, once you healed from the previous one and you were like, Okay, I'm gonna start dating. This is this relationship was so crazy to me. And I also have met this person, and this is when you first moved to LA. So again, from the outside perspective, this was a completely different type of man than the than the one before. So, of course, you're gonna be drawn to that because you're like, okay, he's nothing like my ex. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 43:56

No, a thousand percent. Um, basically, the guy I dated after. That was um. I don't know. That's the thing. On paper, he made himself seem really great. I think um he kind of knew that I was out of his league. And I think that he lied a lot to me so that I would think he was somebody that he wasn't, so that I would date him essentially. Just because when you look at us realistically on paper, I would never date him. Um and from night one, just completely lied to me about who he was, what he did for a living. Um, and he just kept up the lie for a really long time. Um and I just remember starting to see kind of holes, and it was all about his business, what he was doing. Um, and he let's let's say the way he portrayed himself was this knight in shining armor. He was just this great guy, had a great dad. His parents were still together, and he just like knew how to treat a woman. Um he was great. Like that's what sucked is he was my dream kind of partner, but I wanted to mean we were best friends. We had an amazing time together, we had great sex. Um, he was an amazing boyfriend. I remember I would wake up like almost every morning and I would have coffee on my bedside table and flowers and handwritten notes. Like it almost just felt like a dream. Yeah. And um yeah, it just wasn't real. He was lying about, I don't, I still don't really know how he made money. I still don't know how he was paying my rent. He started just being like, You shouldn't pay your rent. He's paying for my rent, he was paying for my flights, he was taking me on trips. Like, um, I don't think he was doing anything shady. I will say that. I don't know what he did. I just remember as soon as I kind of realized he was lying, I was out. And that's the thing is like this once you start to kind of date after you've been hurt or lied to in a relationship, it doesn't matter what they did for you in the relationship. You just know I've dated before, I've moved on. Every time I move on, I date someone better. And so you have the confidence of like not only will I find this person again, but I'll find somebody even better.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Yeah. Um you know what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah. And then I think after that relationship, I did date and I was having fun and I was just dating and I was traveling a lot. Um, and then I think I got too comfortable being alone to where and it's not that I'm I wouldn't even say that I'm avoidant now. Like I think a lot of people label it as avoidant. I think it's I know what I want and I know what I deserve, and I'm not just gonna date somebody that's not that. Yeah. And I think with the international guys, it's like this kind of gray area where it's like they kind of know what the relationship is gonna be too, and it's not gonna be anything serious. And we're just we're both not looking for that. It's kind of just you're in town, let's hang out, let's you know, I'll see you when you're in town. Um, just because I know what I want. And that's the thing. It's all my friends are always, how do you find these like great men? Because I always end up dating and finding somebody great. And it's because I don't settle. I don't settle for the weird in-between people that I'm like, oh, they would be perfect if they have this. I'm just gonna try to change them. Yeah. And I just date people, you have to date somebody for who they are when you meet them. Because if you meet somebody and you're like, I can just help them fit. No, no, no, no, no. You're you can't do that. You have to you have to accept someone for who they are when you meet them. And if you don't like anything about them, give it a give it a week. Someone else will come along, I promise you. And if not, who cares? Like, my whole thing now is if you're not making my life better in some way, it's just not worth it to me because I'm so happy alone. I have such an amazing group of friends. And if you're not changing my life for the better, why would I give you my time and my energy? It's so precious. I'm really busy and I'm surrounded by great people. Why would I take time away from them to be with somebody that makes me feel like I'm not enough? Or that's, you know, that I'm just not aligned with essentially. So it's just like be picky because you only live once. Just like I said, you don't want to look back when you're 80 and be like, I wasted a year with this person. I wasted four years with this person. I spent eight years really on the first guy that I dated. And, you know, I don't regret anything now because I think everything's led to the place I'm in now. And I I wouldn't trade anything for the world because I love my life now. But I think it's just being aware of this person isn't my person and someone else will be better for me. I just have to kind of accept that. I want to ask you too, because a big part of breaking up with somebody is not wanting to see them with somebody else. So did you kind of have that like when you were thinking about forgiving your ex or you mean as a a reason to get back together or yeah, getting back together and even to you know, when you break up, it's just something that kind of keeps you in the relationship for longer. I don't want to see them with somebody else. Like I would rather die.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Yeah, I mean, God, do you ever really want to see your ex with someone else anyway? That's a good question. I think that can definitely be part of it, maybe even subconsciously. I think in my relationship it was just that person was my best friend, and dating is so hard and getting to know someone is so hard. And especially for someone like me, I am very picky and I am picky on who I open up to and let my guard down with. But that definitely plays into it. I think especially if you end a relationship and it's amicable, it's almost worse because you're friendly with them, and you're also you're also like, wow, I'm friends with you, and I still can see that you're dating people. I remember my first real love when we broke up. We didn't even really break up, we almost just kind of just moved on from each other because we left college. And I was always like, I can't imagine him with someone else. I can't imagine me with someone else in the beginning, obviously. And then when you start seeing that and seeing someone move on and date other people, it just becomes normal, but it's weird at first, especially in your 20s, because you only have a handful of relationships that are really meaningful to you, or you're only a couple times you really love someone.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

And I think if you the thought of them with someone else makes you sick, then you know that you actually love that person or love them and you hold a piece of them in your heart. If you don't care, which I've had a relationship like that where the person moved on, I am I could not care less. So I feel like you know great, fine. That was like my relationship, yeah. Yeah, and I feel then you just know maybe that wasn't love, but yeah, I think that is definitely a reason people probably stay in relationships longer than they should, because they don't want that person to be with someone else, even if you're not the one who wants them.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

I will argue though, because like I I mean, I definitely struggle with self-esteem issues, maybe like potentially abandonment issues, but I have a big thing on that I don't want to be replaced. I think that's a big reason where I'm like, ah, he's gonna love love them more and the family's gonna love them more and all these things, whereas just who cares, you know. And I think that's something I wish I could tell teenage self and 20-year-old self because now that I'm in my 30s, I've seen so much and I've experienced so much that I just know I'm gonna find love again. I know I'm gonna find another guy that has a great family and all of these things that I thought were irreplaceable. So, like if you are in your teens or your 20s and you're like have that mindset of like, I'm never gonna find someone like this person again. Let me tell you, not only will you meet them, but you will meet better, more evolved versions of them. There are 8 billion people on this planet. You are going to have much greater loves than this person, and you deserve more than somebody that like had the audacity to literally make the decision to cheat on you. And it just sucks at first. And like, I will say, like, that was a big thing is I hated the thought of the hockey playing ex-boyfriend being with somebody else. And I think that kept me in the relationship for a lot longer than I should have been. But you have to think about it from the same 80-year-old perspective alternative. Am I happy that I stayed with somebody that I wasn't fully happy with and that I knew I wasn't fully happy with? Cause like now me and that guy are friends. Funny enough, um, so literally a bridesmaid in his sister's wedding a year ago. And like he was there and we're friends, and I met his ex-girlfriend. And I say we're friends very loosely. Like, we do not talk on a consistent basis. We're friends in the fact that we are amicable, we follow each other on Instagram, we do not speak, we do not cross any weird boundaries. I mean, me, I mean this guy dated for like eight years. And so, like, obviously, I became very close with his family. I became very close with his sisters. You're friendly. Yeah, and he was okay with it. I think it would have been something where if the girlfriend, his current girlfriend at the time, or he had been uncomfortable with it, I would have been like, absolutely not. But it's just, you know, every relationship will work out the way it's supposed to, and you just can't worry about being replaced. I literally was at the wedding with him and his girlfriend watching them dance XYZ and did not feel a ping of affection for this man. Once you're away from the relationship, truly just have to give it time. You will not care if this person what happens to them at all in any way, shape, or form. It's just a time thing. It sucks in the beginning, and just mute them on everything. Have to go no contact. As much as it sucks, it's just, it's just gonna make you feel bad. It never helps. Mute them on everything. Do not look at what they're doing, do not think about what they're doing, and just focus on you. Put all your energy back into yourself. And there will become a day where you wake up and you just do not care if they're dating somebody now. But I think until that point, just don't think about it. Don't ask, don't look, don't do that to yourself because you will not care eventually, you know?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Yeah. Because I just Yeah, and I think you're also just you're not replaceable, you know. You're an individual and you made an impact in that person's life and their family. You dated for a long time. You that's just not that's you're not replaceable. It's not oh, I'm gonna substitute Michelle in for this new person. It's just that that, you know, it didn't work out and they're gonna find someone, you're gonna find someone, but you know, they they'll always remember, you know, it's always gonna be it's just a different person, it's not let's get a carbon copy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

No, and one could say too, it's like pretty fucked up to stay with somebody for that reason. Like if somebody said, I'm only with you because I don't want to see you with somebody else, it would be like, please break up with me. Please let me be with somebody else because that's such a terrible reason. So it's kind of one of those things where if that is a sole thing that like you were staying in the relationship because you just or a sole reason for getting back together with somebody that cheated you because you're just like, I don't want to see them with somebody else, do not let that be because you will find somebody better. I promise you that. Because like I think about all the time how him cheating on me changed the entire trajectory of my life. Like, yeah, I did not want kids and I did not want to make like I did not want to get married. Like I've I've known that about myself. Um, and he, Colin, the one that cheated on me, really wanted kids and really wanted to get married. That's why him introducing me to a pastor that he wanted to marry us just felt so bizarre because we had gotten into actual arguments where he was just like, please tell me there's just a chance that you want to get married to me. And I was just like, this just isn't something I want. Like, I don't want kids. I want to live my life for me, and like I don't want to have to give that up. And he just couldn't grasp that. And I think that I eventually just the place that he had me in would have convinced me to marry him and have his kids. And so I just think like now I'm living out in LA, I'm, you know, doing social media, which is something I could never even dream of doing. And I love doing it, it's like my most rewarding job that I've ever had. Um, skateboarding. I didn't even start skateboarding until I moved out here and I'm already sponsored essentially. Um, and so there's all of these things where it's like, I'm living my dream life now. And had this man not cheated on me, I genuinely think I would have stayed in that relationship out of a place of like abandonment, out of because like how he had just gotten me into this really dark place. And I think I just would have stayed in it because I had this belief that I was never gonna do better. So, like, that's why in the beginning of this podcast, I was like, congratulations, because it freed me. Like I was in a prison and it freed me. And you know, a few months after we broke up is when I decided I was gonna move to LA. I'd never been here before. I just had a gut feeling and I followed it, and it's changed my life. I'm literally out here and I'm living my dream life. And obviously, there's ups and downs. I'm not saying my life is perfect by any means, but but it's just to think that this is my life now. My whole family's in Georgia, having children, being married to someone that's probably cheating on me, probably gaslighting me into thinking I'm this person I'm not, where it's just him cheating on me is the best thing that ever happened to me because I started the journaling, it shifted my mindset, it shifted everything, like how I dated, how I felt about myself, all of these things to where I would not be in the amazing, happy, like place that I'm in today had he not done that to me.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yeah. So thank you, Colin.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Thank you, Colin, because you actually did change my life.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

He did you a favor. Such a favor. They I feel I really feel like everything happens for a reason and leads you to where you're supposed to go. And obviously, even if it's so painful, you grow from it, and that growth just propels you forward.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

And you know, obviously, there are people who just repeat cycles and patterns and you know, date the same kind of person, but they're not doing the work like you did, which is journaling and reflecting and therapy or whatever it is for for you that works. I think a big part of that is not jumping into like the next relationship and actually grieving and and reflecting on everything and being alone and being okay with being alone because I'm the same way when I was single, I was happy as a clam. And I could not could not even be bothered at times. And it takes like a very special person or a certain connection to actually make that worth it and you know, make it worth it to not spend time with my friends, but spend time with this person or like leave my house to do something with that person instead of just going to sleep at nine o'clock, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

No, and I will say too, I used to be God, probably pick me is probably the only word for it, but in my 20s, I would do things that I thought guys would think were like hot or cool. Or like I'd pretend to have hobbies, like this isn't an actual example, but a great example. Like, say that they played golf, I'd pick up golf, which never actually happened, but like to some extent, there definitely wasn't a a situation like that where I would adopt a hobby or a you know, a liking to something because a guy liked it. And as I got older, I realized that they actually ate that shit. They don't want you to have similar. I mean, it's cool if you guys have similarities, but they want you to have your own life. They want you to do something because you enjoy doing it. They don't want you to cancel your plans because, you know, to see them. That's not romantic to them. A guy, I don't know if anyone's read the book, it's called Why Men Love Bitches, but she makes an amazing metaphor. And I always say it to my friends because it's just such a good example. So basically, she said, Men like to hunt. So if they, you know, they wake up in the morning at 6 a.m., it's freezing cold, they cover themselves in like paint, whatever, and they trudge through mud and sticks and God knows what else just to shoot a deer. And then they're posing with the picture of the deer and they're all smiling and they're all proud of it, right? Because he hunted for it, he worked for it. Versus if you were to drop a dead deer on their doorstep and they woke up in the morning, they're not gonna be squatting on the ground taking the picture with the deer. They're gonna be like, who on earth left a deer on my doorstep? Like, this is disgusting. Get this dead deer out of here. It's probably covered in diseases and God knows what. So I'll call tell my friends when they're making themselves be too available for men or like canceling plans or bending over backwards just to date them. You're being a dead deer. Because it's true. Don't dead deer yourself for men. Like stick to your own schedule, have your own life and make it. So that's like the other thing between my between Colin and then the guy that lied to me, my my last serious boyfriend that I dated, um, is in the relationship with I don't know what should I call him? Bob. Um with Bob. I made it so that my life really didn't change when he left. I had the same schedule, I had the spends. Obviously, financially, things were a little different. Bob was great though. Bob actually paid my rent three months after we broke up because he had made the commitment to. I I honestly even hate saying bad things. But I mean, he took responsibility and you know, it just shows that yeah, he was lying, but he still, I still leveled up in terms of what I was dating. Um, and when I was dating Colin, I had given up and sacrificed so much of who I was, and I'd given up so much of my life that when he left, there was this gaping hole where I just felt empty. Versus when I broke up with Bob, he left, but there wasn't much of a hole to fill. It was sad, and I was like, he's my best friend, and that kind of sucks. But he also lied to me, and that's kind of messed up, and I don't deserve that. So the healing process after Bob, I really wasn't that sad. Like, unfortunately, like I was a little bit, but not as much as like after Colin that that messed me up, and it's because I had a much bigger hole to fill because I'd given up so much of my life and myself to make that relationship work. So it's just almost be if you feel super empty and you miss that person so much and you're dying to get back with them after they've literally cheated on you. That's a sign, that's a bad sign that you gave up way too much of yourself to make that relationship work. You were giving up too much and you need to put that energy back into you before you can even revisit getting back together with that person. You need to recalibrate your energy, recalibrate your schedule. That's a bad sign if you're missing someone so much to the point of thinking of even getting back together with them without having them do therapy or something. There needs to be a solid break in between them cheating on you and getting back together. Like they need to prove themselves that they're working on themselves, that you know, you're putting energy into your like there's so much that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah. I mean, it's so easy to lose yourself in relationships like that. And I feel your example about the golf thing. While it's important to obviously take an interest in your partner's interests and be open to, you know, exploring their hobbies with them and things that they like. You also can't pretend you like something when you don't, because then that person also doesn't know who they're started dating, just like with your situation with Bob. It's like you didn't really know him, and maybe that's what made it easier in some ways, just to kind of get over it, because you're like, Well, he lied, so I don't really know who he is. And our relationship was great for what it was. But if you don't really know the person, it's like, what are you even grieving? You're like, I don't really know you. So exactly that's kind of how it is. If you if you kind of are a pick me girl, or or you go through relationships trying to fit into that person's mold and who they want you to be, then you lose yourself, and that person also just never really gets to know the amazing person you are, and then no one makes the right decision because you're like, who who am I even sleeping next to?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

No, a thousand percent. And and I I do think that's part of the reason why it was so easy for me to move on from Bob. Yeah, because I was like, Who are you? Like, I don't even know who you are, like you've been lying. Um, yeah, no, but I think that makes up that brings up a good point too. Of if you want somebody to miss you and want to be with you, make yourself missable. Don't take who you are, be genuine, be real. Cause it's just like two, why would you want to attract somebody that doesn't love you for you? Because with Bob, it's like he attracted me thinking, okay, the only way this girl is gonna date me is if I do XYZ. And then, you know, eventually I find out who he is. Like, no one wants to live a lie and have to keep up with the lie. Cause eventually it's and why would you want to be with somebody that doesn't want to be with you for who you are?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Why would you want to live that lie? And it just it would it would start to weigh on him after a while, trying to keep up these disappearance that of someone he's not, and it it robs you both of the experience that you could have had if he was honest, because maybe if he was, you would have loved him for who he was, or maybe not, but at least you would know and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Um I think he made that relationship so in that breakup was nine day. Like, I I think I was going on dates a few weeks after, you know. It was just and it's simply because I just hadn't I had no idea who he was.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Like I was just there's nothing to grieve when you don't know the person.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Yeah, yeah, no, and that's the thing too, is everyone loved Bob. Like my all my friends, well, there was one friend that was on to him, and she knew she knew. Um, but yeah, the rest of my friends were like, he's so great. My family loved him, and I don't know. I I don't know, I think everyone eventually too. Some people started swaying. I think my sisters towards the end started being like, I don't know about Bob. And um, yeah, listen to your friends too. I will say the majority of your friends have a consensus about the person you're dating. Maybe, maybe listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

Yeah, because you you have blinders on when you date, and you know, especially if someone's treating you that well, you're just like, Well, what's wrong with him?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

But is he compensating?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Yeah, if he's treating me this way, what could be wrong?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

I will say there about Bob too is Bob did not let me, not let me, I still did it. He we would get in and fights because he didn't like that I had male friends. And that that was Bob's fault. That's a huge red flag to me. If a guy is not okay with you having friends of the opposite gender, um, because it makes me wonder why do you have those? Why can you not be friends with women? You know, it's weird. It's either showing a huge insecurity about that person, or it's another thing. If if your partner is accusing you of cheating and you're not cheating, maybe take a look into that because that projection is real. I've seen that before where the partner will be like, You're cheating, you're cheating. If you're not cheating, they're they might be cheating.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

Yeah, yeah, you might be cheating. It is project projecting because they could be like, I know the signs because I'm the signs.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Yeah, well, too. I think you're just paranoid because you're like, Well, I'm doing it, so maybe they're probably doing too. Yeah, um, yeah, no, I've I've seen that one a few times as well for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Yeah. So do you think that after dating Bob you were in a healthy space? Because you said you started dating right after. Do you think that you were in this like a healthy head space? Because I remember we would almost laugh about it and and how that went down just because it was so out of it was so obscure.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

That that kind of lying just doesn't happen very often. I feel like it's something you re you watch in like a documentary.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

No, that was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Yeah. Yeah. So how did that affect your ability to again like pick someone or or know or trust yourself or your or your decision making or your intuition?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

I think I didn't see it as this was the person I'm choosing the wrong person. Because it's not I chose him knowing that that was the case. I kind of saw it as I thought I was choosing someone great and they deceived me. I loved the guy, like he was my best friend. We were having amazing sex, like the relationship was great. There was not like we would get into the fight about the guy friends thing, but other than that, the relationship was like perfect. So I was just kind of like, if that's the worst thing about our relationship, great. Um, and so when I left, I was I didn't see it as this is a me problem. I was like, no, I was deceived by somebody. And then the second I realized that he was lying to me, I left. So I never saw it as like I'm choosing the wrong person. I think had I found out and then stayed and given him chance after chance and he just kept hurting me, I would be like, I need to take a look at why. But I mean, the second I realized he wasn't who he was saying he was, out, get your stuff. I'm done. I don't care that you're paying my bills, I don't care you're doing XYZ, I'll find this again.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah, you also lived together. So that was a little complicated.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

But really soon off the bat, because what happened was I was moving to LA November, like November 1st, I think. And I met him September 30th, earlier on that time, September 25th, something like that. Um, and so we had like a really intense month in Atlanta, and then he came out to LA and stayed with me. And he started being like, You don't need to find a place, I'll get us a place. And he was essentially living with me at that point too, because he was coming and staying with me out in LA. And then he's we started looking at $20,000 a month homes. And so he kind of sold me on like, I'm gonna, you know, make it so that you can just focus on XYZ and I'm gonna pay for all the groceries. And that's the thing. Like, we were going to Erawan and getting groceries, we were going to Nobu and Malibu, like the man was getting money somehow. Um, and so it was one of those things where it's like I had no reason to not believe him. And that's when that's when I kind of started to see the faults when all of a sudden he'd be like, I can't pay for this because X, you know, this money hasn't come through. And I started being like, Well, why is that? You know, you've made it seem like you have all this money, so why is it a problem? And I don't want people to think, oh, you were only with him because you had money. It's like, no, you were he presented himself as like, this is no problem. I'm gonna do this for you, X, Y, Z. You know, it's just like like not the only reason I was with him, but it was definitely a perk of being with him, it was great, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Presented himself as the provider.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Yeah, yeah. And he was like, I was just raised this way. And I was like, that's amazing. Um yeah, I think from the from the camp, like he lied. He we met at a concert. He came out to me at a concert and he's like, Are you and your friends coming to the after party? And I was with, you know, five of my beautiful friends. I was just assuming, you know, he just wants hot girls there. You know, I was not thinking this man's trying to date me. I ended up finding out later that we had actually been at the same bar the weekend prior. And I think he had seen me there and then seen me at the concert. Who knows? I don't know. Yeah, but I do remember I went to this after party after the Drake concert, thinking I'm just going because it's gonna be fun. And I actually just ended up talking to him the whole time and being like, this is not somebody I would be can normally attracted to. We just had so much fun together, like really hit it off. And he was just so great to me and like all these things. I really didn't understand even that he had money or anything at that point. I thought he just like had friends in the industry, which is really common, especially in places like New York, Atlanta, LA, Miami. Um but yeah, no, I I think I'd spent so much time healing after that that I knew it wasn't a me thing, you know? Yeah, I think it was just like this person straight up deceived me because I was so great and they knew that I they weren't gonna be able to date me otherwise, essentially. Yeah. But I think too, like as long as you leave a situation once you start to see the red flags, I think that's the positive sign. Because, okay, wait, this is not what I thought it was. I'm getting out. Yeah. Um, I mean, people do lie. The first three months you're dating somebody, you're not gonna tell them all your I mean, some people do, but you're not gonna tell them all your trauma and you know, all the bad things about you. You're putting your best foot forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

And then it comes out later.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Yeah, and I think he just kept adding to the lie, adding to the lie, and then he got so deep in it where he was just drowning. And I didn't even know it was true anymore. I just remember like how I found out he was lying was was because of a small lie. It was because he lied about losing the keys to my apartment in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

And something about him lying about that small thing, it was just I something clicked. I can't explain it. It was a revelation where I was just like, he's pathological. And I just remember for hours, probably two hours, I sat there and I went hung out with you after. Yeah, but I remember I was just like, this was a lie, this was a lie, this was a lie. And he was just like, Yeah, yeah, what he just wasn't even denying it. It was crazy. And then we slept in separate bedrooms for like two weeks and he had my location. It was a weird breakup situation. Yeah, because we're still living together the time, but we were in separate bedrooms, it's weird. Um, me and my friend Maggie were supposed to go look at apartments, and instead we packed up my whole apartment, and while Bob was out on a run, and Bob came back as I was loading the last thing in the car, and I literally just went and I stayed with one of my friends for a week and then got an Airbnb. I went home for a little bit because I was planning on going home anyways, and then I got an Airbnb in LA, found the apartment that I'm actually living in now, and have been here ever since, and it's been great. Yeah, and that's the thing, it's like all the guys I've dated since, like, no one's really like traumatized me, I would say. You know, Colin was the the one that really did the um I think the worst. Colin Colin and my uh hockey boyfriend, I think they really did a number. And to the point though, it's once you get hurt like that, you'll never feel that hurt again. You will notice the signs and your brain will register it as like uh-danger. And that's what's nice, is like you'll never date a a Colin or a Bob or Hockey Boy Ann or you know, yeah. So that's kind of what's nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

Yeah, it's true. Also, when you're dating, you think things won't happen to you that and then when they do, you're like, Well, I I didn't know that could happen to someone like me because I have high integrity and pick the right people, and then you know, some people just again it's not black and white, but some people just make mistakes and or they're just bad people. So everyone's different, but you have to basically separate yourself from those people and take the experience for what it is and how much you can grow and learn from that. And obviously being self-aware is really important, I think. A lot of people aren't. And that's when they make the same mistakes again and fall into the same patterns, or subconsciously choose people who they know are not right for them, or just gonna lead them down a path that they it's almost like you're uncomfortable with growth in some ways, so you just keep picking the same type of partner. I feel like in the past I maybe had commitment issues, and I personally was almost picking people who are unavailable because I was scared to be so available just in dating. But I feel like the older you get, the more you know yourself and you're more comfortable with who you are, and you're comfortable with having boundaries and being like, you know, this is who I am, this is what I'm gonna tolerate, this is not what I'm gonna tolerate.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

No, and and being alone. I think I mean you grow up in you know a house with your parents and your siblings and you're not alone. You go to college and you're not really alone. I think it takes time alone to realize actually how amazing being alone is. I think you need to be so okay with being alone before you date again. Because I think that if you are scared of being alone, then you'll stay in the wrong relationships, you'll attract the wrong people because you're also going to attract other people that have that same fear. Yeah. Um, and I also think too, if you don't take the time to heal after especially getting cheated on or a bad relationship or anything, um, you bring that trauma from the relationship into your next relationship. So you may be dating a great person. You may have lucked out, date a great person, but you may project, you know, insecurities that your last partner caused onto that person. You may be like, what are you doing? Who are you with? It's not to say that because your ex cheated on you that you're the next person you date is, but it's just being in a place where you know that you're not going to attract somebody like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

Yeah. Um yeah, I think if you have these unhealed trauma or your healing, I again, I don't think you ever have to be fully healed to be in a relationship because no one is ever really fully healed anyway. I think you're always working on yourself, but noticing the patterns of like, okay, I'm projecting right now because this is something that happened in my last relationship, and that's why I'm like acting like this, or I'm snapping, or something like that, like recognizing that in yourself and then moving forward, that is the best thing you can do. I think obviously if you're like, oh, I picked my now partner, is so amazing, and why am I acting this way? It's likely because you haven't dealt with things from a previous relationship.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

No, for sure. And like I was saying earlier, I'm such a firm believer in you attract people on the frequency level that you're at. So it's just like if you are putting all your energy into yourself, if you are putting energy towards what you want to do, what you're supposed to be doing, you know, you're taking care of yourself. I think you're gonna attract somebody with that same energy. And if you're not doing those things, you can't expect to someone to come and, you know. Yeah. I think that's what happened with Bob because um I was in a place where there was some reason where I wasn't feeling a hundred percent about where I was. I think I was in like a really uncertain place with my career, what I was doing. Um, I was also about to make a huge life move. I was moving, you know, to the West Coast. You know, it was a scary thing. All my family lives back in Georgia. Like, I think it was an uncertain time for me. And that was a big financial risk, all these things to where like there's a reason that I attracted somebody that was also in that place. Of like maybe his life was uncertain, maybe he was looking for purpose, like maybe I was looking for purpose. But yeah, I mean, there's a reason I attracted somebody that was like living a lie, you know, like to some extent, like I either was like just hoping someone to be a distraction, like there is some reason I attracted that energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

Maybe scared to make that move by yourself because he eventually he essentially came over there with you. So yeah, in some ways that he was like a like a safety blanket.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:22

And yeah, no, a thousand percent. And I will say too, like I'm off topic, don't get a dog if you get cheated on, or don't get a dog or a cat, don't get an animal. Because a lot of times I see this really commonly after a bad breakup is people will get a dog or a cat to fill the hole. Don't do it. Get a dog or a cat because you want a dog or cat. Having a dog or cat is a massive responsibility. It's going to limit how much you can travel, it's gonna limit how much you can be out during the day. It's a huge responsibility. Do not get an animal until your hole is filled, until like I am responsible enough. I have a yard or I have the time or whatever to take care of this animal because it is not fair to the animal. And it's not fair to be able to do it. It's a band aid. Yeah, it's a band-aid. I've just seen it so many times that people get an animal to fix, fill the hole that you need to fill with yourself. Being alone, with getting to know yourself, because it's just like if you believe that you deserve somebody that doesn't cheat on you, that treats you well, that's loyal to you, that doesn't lie to you, um, that's you know, whatever your standard is, you have to like put energy into yourself and make yourself like, you know, feel like you're worthy of those things. Because if you feel like you deserve those things, but you're not taking care of yourself, like just doing like basic things, take care of yourself, you're not gonna attract that person because you're lying to yourself. How you actually, you know, there's gonna be a belief where I don't actually deserve these things, and you're gonna attract somebody that has these same unrealistic expectations.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:53

Um yeah, I mean, maybe people want an animal after a breakup because they give unconditional love in some ways, and that's what everyone is looking for is unconditional love. But yeah, I think I think the same also in couples who you know shouldn't proceed in their marriage, but then end up having a baby because they think that's gonna fix the marriage, and it ends up not fixing things and makes it worse because obviously that's the biggest responsibility in life, and that is the hardest thing because then you are really you're making you're digging yourself into a hole that you can never get out of.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:33

No, and I mean it's the same, yeah. Animals, kids, tattoos, yeah, don't make a permanent decision. There's so many things you can do before you take that step. But yeah, I mean, I think the ultimate goal, whether you're in a relationship, whether it's happy, unhappy, whatever, is just take a look at your life without that person. If this person were to break up with me tomorrow, what would my life look like? And if you have a great group of friends, if you have hobbies, if you have, you're gonna be just fine. Oh, it'll be sad, but you're gonna be just fine, I think you're in a good spot. I think if you're looking at your life, or say you're going through a breakup and you feel empty inside, just know that it's because you were you were dating a drain. You're a fountain and you were dating a drain, and they just sucked all the energy and the life out of you. And you need to turn your fountain back on and get that baby flowing because the drain's not there anymore, and you need to put that energy back into yourself. Um because I think your life shouldn't change when somebody leaves you, you know. Even you should be financially okay, you should never be financially responsible or anybody. You should be able to break up with your partner and be a hundred percent okay to walk away. And that's the only reason you should be in a relationship. If your life or your relationship isn't like that, write down what you need to do and figure it out. Yeah, um, because you never yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:54

Yeah, I agree. I think if you're not with that person and your life has stayed the same in the way that you're still working at your work going after your dreams, doing what you want to do, spending time with your friends, not you didn't make like sane sacrifices that changed who you were and where you lose yourself. I think if all of that is good, all of your your life is stable without that person, and you still want that person back, or you still feel like I just really care about this person, I really miss them, and I'm not talking about like someone who cheated on you or was emotionally abusive or any of that, but then you'll know for sure if the relationship is something that you they you'll know for sure if you really miss that person for real, or if if you just miss the comfortability of being with someone.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

Yeah, yeah, the companionship. Yeah, um, and you should love being with yourself that much, genuinely. You should have those same feelings towards time to your self-reflection. It's so important to keep yourself accountable and you know, make sure that you're in the relationship for the right reasons, that you're doing what you need to do, that you're not sacrificing too much of your time, your energy, time by yourself. It cannot emphasize enough, is so important. There's no reason you should be with somebody all of the time. There's no reason somebody should be your only friend or the main person that you see. The amount of time you spend with your partner should be equal to the amount of time you spend with your friends, spend doing your hobby, um, your family, I guess if you're close to them. Like there should be a balance because when that person leaves, that's when you're gonna feel a hole in your life. And it's just you don't that's another thing. You don't want to look back when you're 80 and be like, I spent all of my time with this one person. I I, you know, limited myself so much in my life, just you know, with one being. That's nobody's there's that's nobody's purpose. Like life is meant to, you know, make relationships with multiple people, experience different things, try new things that you wouldn't try. Like live your life for you, don't live your life for somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

Yeah, it's important to keep maintain your relationships with your friends just as much as it's important to maintain the relationship with your partner. So you have to and your family, but you have to, you know, spend time with those people. And honestly, it makes your relationship better when you have your own thing. You miss that person more. You you want it makes the time that you actually spend together even better because you're like, I haven't seen you in a couple of days. I I or even hours that we're miss this person, and it just makes the relationship stronger in that way that you can like be secure enough and happy enough to spend time with the other people that you love.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

No, for sure. And like God forbid the day comes where something happens, they cheat on you, whatever. You need you're gonna need a friend group. You're gonna need people there for you. No one likes that friend that all of a sudden reappears when you know they're going through a bad breakup. It's that's not fair to anybody, you know. And that's a thing too. It's um start doing what you love, start doing the things that you've always wanted to do. It's never literally too late, you're never too old. Start putting energy into things you love, start thinking about what the 80-year-old version would want you to do. Because I think even me posting on social media, I lived so long in this world where I cared so much what people thought about me and I needed everybody to like me and what social media has done for me, and and seeing not everyone's gonna agree with me, trust me, everyone's gonna agree with me. Um, I think most people aren't gonna agree with you. And I think you have to think about it from the perspective of you don't really like most people either, you know? And if everyone's agreeing with you and everyone likes you all the time, you're probably not living your truth and being yourself. I think you just have to know if a partner with friends, with anybody, if you are living your truth, if you are doing the hobbies you want to do, if you are living your life how you would want to live it, you're going to attract people that mirror that. So just know you will attract a partner that mirrors, you know, back that same way. And like that's the thing is lateboarding has brought like so much self-love and so much self-worth because it's a hobby that I'm working towards and I love doing it. And I've met people who also love doing it. And it's just brought so much into my life where it's just one of those things where like I can't even imagine my life without that thing. And had that horrible thing not happened to me, and had I not had this massive hole to fill, I wouldn't have started skating again. Cause I I did start skating 20, broke up 2022. Yeah, I started skating in 2023. Um, and so it's just like, you know, just start replacing that hole, not with animals, not with anyone living, nothing with the pulse, nothing with the heartbeat. Um, and just things that would make you happy. Do the thing you always wanted to do when you were younger or that your older version of yourself wants you to do, and just stop living your life for other people. It does not matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:40

Yeah, because once you're then in a relationship and if it ends, or even if you spend time apart, you don't lose your friends. You don't have to rebuild relationships because you have them there the whole time. You're not abandoning yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Yeah, and like even with skateboarding, it's just made myself worth so high. I truly think that's just why I don't put up with stuff now because it's just allowed me to really believe in myself. Look what I'm capable of. Look what I'm saying. Yeah, so it's just one of those things where I believe in myself so much now. And so I think I'm really great, and I think that's why I attract these men. Like I now I attract men who like think I'm the coolest person ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

You know, I've seen you skateboarding, and it's crazy how far you've come from literally the beginning where you were taking lessons to now and just watching you, and it's really inspiring because you really went with your hobby and you you kept it going. And a lot of people just abandon that. They're like, Oh, I'm gonna try this for a while and then abandon it. But you actually did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:42

Well, I will say, I mean, two things. I think sometimes you have to. I've I've tried so many things too since skateboarding that haven't worked out. I actually tried doing my own podcast and didn't work out, you know. Yeah, but it's sometimes you have to try and fail at something to be like that wasn't meant for me, and you know what? Now I know it wasn't meant for me. And people can say all they want, they can be like, you know, she made a podcast and And didn't want to, you know, I just didn't love it. It was a lot of work and it wasn't for me. And skateboarding too, like I skate at Venice Beach Skate Park. Um, that's my local. And you have, you know, 50 to 100 people at a time watching you skate. And you fall sometimes and you mess up. And, you know, it's just like being okay with people and realizing you're not perfect or realizing you're not, you know, is great. But that's the thing is most people when I tell them I've been skating for in bowls, I've only been skating in bowls for two years. Now I started that in 2024. But when I tell people that, they're like, I thought you've been skating your entire life.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:32

You know, they're like astonished that you can just learn that like caliber of skating, I guess, in such a short amount of time. But if I just get hyper-fixated, I guess, and really kind of my all, it's my whole life now. But um, I think it's it's more to say, just don't give a fuck what anyone thinks because you're not living your life for other people. So don't stay in a relationship because you people are gonna say, Oh, you you guys broke up or your relationship. You know, stop living your life for other people. Do what you want to do. People are gonna say either way, and it's just news cycle. People care for like three days and they never talk about it again. Like everyone's just really focused on themselves all the time. And, you know, you're really just not that interesting anyway. They'll they'll say something for a day and then they'll be on to the next thing. So don't stay in a relationship because you're worried, you know, Mary Lou is gonna come in and date your man. Please let Mary Lou date your man because she's gonna get traumatized just like you did. The same way that he cheated on her and disrespected her. I promise you, he's not gonna change for another girl. Unless this man goes and does serious therapy, he's not gonna, he's not gonna change at all. He's gonna do that to Mary Lou. And not only is he gonna do it to Mary Lou, he's gonna do it in every relationship for the rest of his life until he heals up for himself or until he can't pull girls anymore. But like you can't, you know, stay stay with somebody for the belief that what if they change for somebody else, they're not. They're not. If they too change and they don't come back to you, that's not your person. You know, that person's not meant for you, and you will date somebody better. I have seen it every single time I date somebody, they're a level up than the last person I need without.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:01

I think a lot of people worry about, you know, if you're the one who put so much into the relationship and helped them grow and opened their eyes, that they're gonna it's all my work is gonna go to someone else. And I think that is something people struggle with in moving on or breaking up with someone. That's all my effort that someone else is gonna reap the benefits of. But at the same time, it's like you said, really the relationship that matters is the one with yourself, and if you have a strong enough relationship with yourself, it it won't affect you as much.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:35

Also, too. Let me just tell you you will never ever waste your time like that on or energy like that on a man again. Like the the more I date, the less energy I put into changing somebody or fixing them or buying their clothes or changing, no, when accept them for who they are when you meet them. If you are upset that you they're gonna, you know, you put all this time and energy into them and you know, some someone else gets to read the benefits. You need to look at why did I put so much time and energy into fixing this man? Why didn't I have a belief in myself to just go find that person? Because when you do that, you have a belief about yourself that I'm not able to find another relationship, therefore I have to fix that person. Yeah. So you dump all of your time, all of your precious time and energy that you should be putting back into yourself, into this other person, because you have a belief about yourself that you're not gonna be able to find that otherwise. And it's like, no, if you did that in your last relationship, you need to look in the mirror and say, why do I have this belief that I'm not gonna, you know, find somebody that loves me the way that I need to be loved? Like, why did I feel the need to fix this person instead of just breaking up with them and finding someone that does? And I think a lot of that can be chalked up to like if you're young, if you're in your teens or your 20s, a lot of times that's just lack of experience in dating where you just haven't seen it firsthand. But if you're in your 30s and 40s and you're still trying to fix people, you need to really spend time alone and take a look in the mirror. Because if you haven't seen that by your 30s and 40s, then that you are a prize and that anyone would be lucky to date you. You need to build yourself up into a place where you do feel like that. Because people are replaceable. If that, if if a relationship goes wrong, it's not because one person's better than the other. Truly, all of that's just so subjective. It's just that person wasn't good for you, the same way you weren't good for that person. It's nothing personal, it's just you're different. You want different things, you're different people. No one's better than the you weren't in the same place, you wanted different things.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:30

And so and that the difference between like dating or marrying potential versus like growing together. So obviously you could you could try to fix someone if they're not doing it on their own and you're supporting them, if you're the one putting all of the effort into just having them change or be this other person, like that's that's not healthy and that's not good. Like you you obviously it's important to grow together in a relationship. Obviously, this person doesn't have to be like top success, but they have to have that ambition and that has to be there without you in the picture, regardless. And it can't obviously you can inspire someone to like be better and grow, but like they have to make those moves themselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:14

For sure. And too, like you're saying, you just you change. If I look back at the people I've dated in my you know, my teens and my twenties, what I want now is so different, and who I am so different, you're just gonna change. You're still a baby. Me at 34 years old. Sorry, I'm still extremely young, and it almost takes being 34 to realize that that's still young. I genuinely think you're young up until you're like 50, honestly. And then you kind of start being in an adult.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:39

Um, but you're just especially before your prefrontal cortex is like fully developed at 25. I can't even imagine getting married at 25 and how different I am as a person now, just in the way I know myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:54

I mean, I just think about the person I was in my 20s versus who I am now and what I want and all of these things, and it's just night and day. I'm such a firm believer in please don't get married in your 20s. Please do not, for the love of God, get married in your 20s. I remember when I was 25, I was with the hockey player and our relationship was kind of starting to go downhill. And I've never wanted to get more married or have a child more in my life. Mm-hmm. Because I was like, I need this will fix our relationship. I love this person. He's my best friend. And if we get married and have children, it'll, it's just what we need to do. It's just I was looking instead of just realizing, you know, maybe we've outgrown each other. We've it's been like, you know, eight years of on and off, four years of living together. Maybe we're just different people now. We want different things. Um, and I was like, no, marriage and kids, marriage and kids. I that will that will fix it. And then we can be best friends and I can be in his family forever and no one will ever leave me. And what we ended up doing was breaking up because we, you know, we're different people and changed. And I think that's just part of being in your 20s is figuring out what you do like, what you want. And I think a lot of times, like like you said, that's the hardest relationship to get over, is the ones where it is amicable. Because I think, you know, it's just hard to be like we just want different things and we're just different people and everything else is fine, the relationship is perfect. But it's just time, dude. Eventually, eventually you move on, and eventually, like you will be okay. And I think that's well.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

I also think if you have different if you want different things and you don't align on certain things, and like maybe it's the micro things and the macro things are okay, or vice versa, like that, those are the signs that that the relationship isn't perfect. So maybe you get along with them and you're you're able to laugh and have fun with them, but those other things don't work. So the relationship just isn't right. And it doesn't mean that it's there's maliciousness or there's some big drama around it, but like those things matter. So uh it's easy to avoid talking about those things. And I encourage people when they're dating to talk about the things that they want in a relationship, like right away, especially the older you are, because you just you don't want to waste your time. But you need to know right off the bat like, does this person want kids, marriage? Are they spiritual? Like, how are we gonna raise kids? All of these things that non-negotiable, like also, yeah. And if those things scare the person, they're also not right for you either. If they scare if that scares them to talk about on like day one, two, or three, then bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:26

Yeah, I mean, that's a thing. It's that's really important to you and it's not important to the other person, then problem solve. Because like someone brought that up to day one, two, or three and me. I mean, I think I would honestly, I'm such an open-minded person. I think I would just be like, no, you know, I don't. I'm glad you asked. Um, but I think too with Colin, like we met during a time where like I hadn't been living in Atlanta. I was COVID. I didn't have any friends. I would, I mean, my sister was my best friend at the time. I had been living with her and we kind of had a falling out. And so I had nobody. Um, I just found out my dog had cancer and was passing away. He had just gotten a dog. Um, and so meeting him, I made him a whole world where we overlooked the fact that he really wanted to get married and have kids. I was just like, you know what? We're best friends, we'll figure it out later. We're best friends. Yeah. He's got a dog and he's filling, you know, this hole in my life. He had just got a dog, and I think we just knew that we were in these different places, but we still tried to just make it work and all that in.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:24

Your growth is at a different speed, and you you suppress it, and you're like, it will work on it later, or you're secretly hoping they'll change their mind or be open-minded to your lifestyle or the things that you want. Or he maybe was like, She's young, she's gonna change her mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:40

We thought I was gonna change her mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:41

The biological clock will tick.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:43

No, we he would start actual arguments where he'd be like, I just need to know that there's a 1% chance that you're gonna change your mind. And I would be like, There's a 1% chance someone's gonna walk in there and punch me in the face right now. You know, like there's a 1% chance of anything happening. Is there a 99% chance that I don't want kids and I don't want to get married? And I think like he just wanted so badly just marriage and kids because he thought it was gonna fix a lot of his like sadness he was feeling in his life and emptiness, um, the same way I did when I was 25. I think men are a little bit delayed in that department. So I think it it made sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:15

I was also trying to change you, like he's trying to to fix you in a way, thinking you're okay, she's she's got all the things that I want except these things that are really important to me, if that's the case. And and if in that way, he's he's dating the potential that you'll change into this person who wants those things, and you don't. You just have to find someone who wants cool with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:41

No, and that's the thing, is when I look back on my relationship with Colin now, I'm the same way. I don't think he really loved me. I don't think I ever loved I think we needed each other. I think like we needed each other in that time of our life. Like his cousin ended up like tragically passing away and terrible. And you know, he I kind of was there for him through that. And I think we went through a lot together. My dog died when I was talking to him. Um, my who was my child, who I I got the dog because of the hockey player boyfriend, and um my dog unexpectedly died of cancer, and he was there for me, and then his cousin died, which obviously human person different levels, but still traumatic event. And that happened in the first few months of us dating and talking, so we were almost trauma bonded together. I don't even know if we were like even super attracted to that. I think we got along as friends and we neither of us wanted to be lonely, and I was desperate for just like any kind of companion at that point, and I think he liked a lot of aspects of like the lifestyle, what dating me kind of meant for him. And yeah, I don't think in either of us were together for the right reasons, and I think we were just clinging to just this relationship. So obviously wrong. Yeah, he had really limiting beliefs about a relationship the whole time. He'd be like, Why are you dating me? Why are you with me? You could do so much better. All these weird things. I think um I think he cheated because he he knew that I was gonna kind of gonna break up and end the relationship with them, like kind of see that that's where the relationship was headed. He had a lot of self-esteem issues, and I think it was easier for him to stomach that the relationship ended because I did this fucked up thing and not because of who I am or I wasn't enough or because she didn't want to be with me. Because that's where the it was headed. We definitely had been Rocky talking about breaking up all these things that had to do with who he was. Nothing about his um job or appearance or anything like that, more so just not being aligned, wanting different things in life, having different goals, just not being my fit, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:36

It's essentially self-sabotage, especially the way he did it and who he did it with and all of that, and the degree to which he was disrespectful. It was sign sealed that it was burning the bridge and not even just leaving it in a place where oh, maybe in the future you could get back together or something. No, he made it so we won't get back together because she won't take me back.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:58

And it wasn't that it had it was something that didn't have to do with who he was, it had to do with like something that he did.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:04

And what's crazy too is I feel like kind of important to talk about when you're cheating, is like I remember being like, oh, well, you know, him and the friend deserve each other. Like they can go date now. And what's crazy is that as soon as I found out about them, I mean, I don't know for sure, but I've heard through the grapevine that it fizzled out. They stopped hooking up. He started dating whoever he's dating right now, and she kind of was left in the dark. I don't know if she thought their relationship was gonna turn into something. I don't know. I never talked to her again either. But I think that what was fueling the relationship and what was fueling his attraction to her was that not only was she the complete opposite of me in every way, shape, or form, but she was exciting. She was this exciting thing to where once I found out about the relationship, it wasn't exciting to him anymore. He was like, Oh, that dopamine doesn't go as hard. I don't want to date you. It was like the second I kind of was like, oh, like, no, yeah, you guys can go do that. I'm out, you know, take me out of this weird whatever you guys are doing. It was no longer fun to him. And the girl who was knowingly hooking up with my boyfriend was kind of got the karma she deserves. So I think there's like an aspect of when you get cheated on being like, oh my God, is he gonna date this girl that he was cheating on me with? Whatever, whatever. You just have to know that like once the excitement gets taken out of the equation, it it wears off. It wears off and like nine out of 10, the girl and the guy are gonna get kind of what's coming to them, and that he's gonna realize he made a mistake because he was looking for the 10% of whatever you were lacking, and he's, you know, gonna have this delayed response to the breakup once you're already moved on and over it. And then she's going to have to deal with the fact that he used her to like deal with whatever wound, you know. And the same way your ex the girl that was cheating knowingly with your ex-boyfriend, I mean, she's out for vengeance right now. She has a whole album, huh? She has a whole album about this man, and she is out for blood. Um, but I mean, that's just a show. She's not gonna be the exception. He's gonna do to her the same thing he did to you, and it's only a matter of time. Like, just be patient. Just be patient. That girl will get what's coming to her with that boy. If it's a guy listening and your girlfriend she's on you, the person will not change for somebody else. They're not the karma's real. Karma is real, they're not gonna end up together. And it's almost worse if they do get married and have kids because it's just gonna happen eventually, and it's gonna be so much worse if they're married and have kids and so much more damaging. So you just can't worry about it. You just have to know in the way I don't know what it is. I don't know if I have like a powerful witch in my bloodline. Every time a man has wronged me, they've lost their hairline, they've lost their hairline. Carmel will come in whatever way, shape, or form our hairline, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:53

That is so funny. Well, Michelle, I love having you on. So I can just keep talking to you all night. Um you've given so much great advice already, but what is a piece of advice that you could leave for our listeners today?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:08

Uh that's tough. I think just be okay with being alone. I think if you if there's one thing that really changed my life, it was getting myself into a place where like I was okay with or without somebody. Um, I think really prioritizing to my mindset. Cause I think I changed my mindset to where I'm almost delusional now. Everything's gonna work out. Everyone that leaves my life wasn't meant to be in it. It means that there's someone else coming. Um, and just kind of getting yourself into this place where it's just everything's a loss. Everything's a loss that leaves, and I'm meant for great things. And just getting yourself into a place where you're like, what do I love? What do I want? How can I live this life for me?

SPEAKER_04 1:44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:55

What are you gonna do so that when you're 80 years old and you potentially can't anymore? Like, how are you gonna make that person proud? So that when you're 80 and you're looking back on your life, you're like, damn, I did everything I wanted to do. I think just get really clear on who you want to be and what you want out of life, and then do that. I think what people will come and go, and at the end of the day, all you have is yourself. Yeah, and sadly, all you really can rely on is yourself. But make it so that you're attracting great people, you're doing great things, and that if anyone is to leave or anything is to happen, you have yourself, you still have your hobbies and you're doing what you love. And I think as long as you have that, you're always gonna be okay. So I think just if you're in a place where you just got cheated on and you feel really sad and you want to get revenge and you want to be the first person in a relationship, just know that the best revenge is being a great person. I just I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to just make sure you're okay, you're putting energy into yourself. And yeah, that way when if someone ever cheats on you again, you're just like, I'm great. Why would they do that to me? And you can just move on. I think just have that same respect for yourself. Don't fight for somebody that's not fighting for you or treating you in a way and fight for yourself, advocate for yourself and advocate for the life you want to live and do what's best for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:18

Living well is the best revenge.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:20

Live, I mean, truly, there's there's no better revenge than just leveling yourself up, being the hottest version of yourself. Then that's when you're gonna attract somebody with that same energy. So just get yourself into a headspace where you believe that you are great, and then that's when you're gonna attract somebody great.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:35

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks. I talked so much. No, this is so good. We could, you know, talk forever, but I obviously would love to have you back on at some point too.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:48

Yeah, for sure. Maybe I'll have some some nice juicy dating stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:53

And everyone check out Michelle's content, watch her skating videos, she's amazing. I will link your socials in the description.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:03

So fun.