The Hidden Psychology Behind the “Ick” and Self-Sabotage in Relationships

In this deeply honest conversation, attachment coach and recovered fearful avoidant Rachel Smith from Rewire With Rach breaks down the hidden psychology behind fearful avoidant attachment, emotional self-sabotage, relationship anxiety, and why so many people struggle to feel safe in love.

The episode explores how childhood trauma, inconsistent caregiving, and nervous system dysregulation shape adult relationships, creating patterns of push-pull dynamics, ghosting, deactivation, overthinking, hypervigilance, and fear of intimacy. Rachel shares her own rock-bottom breakup story that forced her to confront her attachment wounds and begin the healing process that eventually changed her life and career.

We dive into the difference between anxious attachment, dismissive avoidant attachment, and fearful avoidant attachment, while also unpacking how modern dating culture, social media, dating apps, “the ick,” and instant gratification are fuelling emotional avoidance and disconnection.

The conversation also explores:
• Why talk therapy alone sometimes isn’t enough
• How nervous system regulation changes relationships
• What deactivation actually feels like internally
• Why fearful avoidants often regret breakups later
• How unresolved trauma affects trust and intimacy
• The role of hypervigilance and emotional overwhelm
• Why healthy relationships can feel unfamiliar or unsafe
• How to stop confusing self-protection with standards
• The difference between reacting and responding in relationships
• What healing attachment wounds actually looks like in real life

Rachel also explains how secure functioning doesn’t mean becoming “perfect,” but learning how to pause, regulate, communicate, and stay connected even when triggered.

If you’ve ever struggled with relationship anxiety, fear of commitment, emotional shutdowns, overthinking, or feeling trapped in repeating unhealthy relationship patterns, this episode offers practical insight, compassion, and hope that real healing is possible.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Ever tried to Google therapists near me and ended up way more anxious than when you started? Yeah, same. Grow Therapy makes finding a dream therapist who gets you way easier and faster. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accept over a hundred insurance plans. Sessions averaging about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit Grow Therapy.com slash headcase today to get started. That's grow therapy.com slash headcase. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Welcome back to Headcase. I'm Stephanie Hoffman. This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human. Let's dive in. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Headcase. Today we have on Rachel Smith. Rachel is an attachment-focused nervous system-led relationship coach that helps clients build secure love. A healed, fearful, avoidant herself. She specializes in helping those with this attachment style and their partners and exes navigate relationship dynamics to heal. She has coached thousands of clients in building and navigating secure, healthy relationship dynamics and is just getting started. So welcome, Rachel. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. So you describe yourself as a fearful, a recovered fearful avoidant. So looking back on that version of you, what what is while in thick of the attachment style that you were in? What was the specific time that kind of made it click that you were like, I have to change this and recognize that this was a pattern?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I am healed at this point. I I am secure functioning, which is um, but of course, you know, like I I think during it's it's really hard because I honestly for the longest time I thought I was an anxious attacher. Like I always was very anxious in relationships. So um, but I I kind of always had this history ever since I was a kid. I like because I did, I looked at my parents and I was like, oh my god, I don't want to, I don't want to be like this. And so I did kind of take it upon myself to, you know, I told my parents when I was 12, I was like, I I need to go to therapy, I need something. Um, but it was very quite I always was kind of in this constant need to fix myself for most of my life. So I would consume like so many books, I would try all the different belief work and do a bunch of things, but um, but I I I could never really sustain it, to be honest. Um, it was more so of a band-aid, but yeah, the part that actually made me really like hit rock bottom and and make me want to truly heal and commit to it, it was actually I went through a breakup with um another pair for avoidant, and it was a relationship that after years of not being chosen by people, of course, that was you know, I would historically date unavailable people or I would chase unavailable people. And I really put a lot of effort and investment into this relationship. It really just broke my heart to the degree that I was like, I cannot keep living like this. I don't want to feel this way anymore. And I think a big part for me was that I realized how my behavior hurt the person that I deeply cared about. And so that was a big thing for me, but it was mainly because I just really like I couldn't like I had nothing to lose, honestly, at this point, because I was like, I I'm so tired of feeling this way. Like I have nothing to lose. I lost everything at that point. I lost my job, like literally three days before they broke up with me. I and we lived together, so I had no way of paying for my home. Like everything was just kind of like so unstable. I was like, I have nothing left to lose because I would often do something and start something, but I would always self-sabotage, and I was so aware of it, and I was like, I cannot, I have to keep going. I cannot keep doing this because I know that I'm just gonna sabotage myself again, and I could tell that I was doing it, and I was like, no, I have to keep going. So that was really a huge catalyst for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Wow. And how did that kind of shift into becoming your profession and where you are today?

SPEAKER_00 4:49

It's so funny because when I was a kid, I honestly looked at my life and I thought this has to be for something, and I feel like one day I'm gonna use this and I'm gonna help people. I just don't know what that's gonna look like. And I always had a dream of doing it, I just never believed that I was worthy or like I was entitled to helping people. Um but it was really interesting because it was always something that I I kind of explored. I just never really had the confidence to do it because I always felt that I had to be perfect and ready to um to be able to offer something. Um but it just became really clear to me that I really understood, but also I was embodying the work that I was doing. And it was also there was so much information out there that was really confusing and contradictory and not helpful because I spent years and years trying to heal, and I was like, I'm just doing what everyone's telling me to do. And um so it kind of became where I just I started implementing things that I found and that I had researched and I had worked with therapists on, and it was literally so much trial and error, and I had essentially taken my healing journey to to the point where I was like, okay, this is what's working, this is what makes sense, this is what doesn't work. And so um I kind of took it in as filling the gap for something that I know how deep what deep of a need it is to be understood and to be seen and to know that I can change this, and that's exactly such a deep need for fearful avoidance is to be understood and to be seen and to be heard, and um so yeah, I mean, I I just kind of took it as I felt very cooled to help people, and yeah, so here we are.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Yeah, it's so funny how the most h amazing professions come out of a bad place, or and it that's usually the catalyst for some calling that someone has. I've even started this podcast kind of in the same thing, just in a bad place, and you become you become what other people need, I guess, because you've lived through that experience. So that's that's incredible. And so there are therapists, and then there's attachment coaches, relationship coaches, and obviously you just said you kind of took bits and pieces from what you've gathered and your own experience. How do you define what you do with Rewire with Rach? And how does that differ from traditional talk therapy for the listeners who might be used to just that way of getting help?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, so and you know, the thing is is that talk therapy is it's a great tool, like it's really helpful, but it's it's such a it's scratching the surface. And you know, I I I do tell clients I'm not a licensed psychologist or therapist or anything. I actually have a quite a few clients who are trauma therapists and psychologists and and whatnot, but that's the thing, is that um like it's the it's I think both professions are so important, and that's why working together is really crucial. But essentially, you know, talk therapy, it can be really helpful, but if you don't have the embodied structure to integrate it, and for instance, if you don't have the the capacity to be able to move through, like let's say the emotions that come up when you're talking about it, or if you can end up re-traumatizing yourself, or you can come from a place of intellectualizing something, which is you know, it's exactly what I did as well. I was in talk therapy for years and I thought, oh, checked her off my list, went to therapy, sounds great, but again, like nothing was changing, and I would be so I felt so disempowered when I just kept repeating the same thing and I didn't understand what was going on because I was doing all the stuff. But essentially what I do, I mean, of course, you know, coaches vary of how they help people and what exactly it is that they do, but for me, like I take all of this psychology stuff, I take all the terms, the the research, and I essentially I break it down into something very digestible for people so that they understand what it is, why it's happening, what it looks like, and how to change it. So I'm very focused on the embodiment part, and you know, I do focus on nervous system-led approach because that's the whole thing is if we don't feel safe enough to change it, it will always default back to our protective responses. So we have to be able to walk with the system and have the awareness as a whole rather than you know, just understanding all of our beliefs and trying to change it that way because it's just it's not gonna create tangible lasting change.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. I think we over-therapise sometimes with talk therapy, especially. I think it's such a useful tool, but there is a point sometimes where you just talk too much and you overanalyze too much. But if you don't actually understand what's going on, you you're just it sometimes it could just be the the therapist or the person that you're talking to just validates your feelings without really giving you tools to deal with them or recognize what is actually going on.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

And it sort of just keeps you in that loop.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah, 100%. And you know, I've worked with many clients, you know, their partners will go to therapy, and if the therapist isn't validating them, and if they don't agree with them, then and they hold them accountable, then it's like boop, I'm gonna go to another therapist. Or and it's also, I think, as well, like you said, like where we over-therapize, and I think that it has become something which is amazing that we it it's become such a normalized, you know, part in society, but also again, like we keep talking about things and we we check it off a list, we're like, yeah, I felt really good. Like that felt, but that's the thing, is that it's a temporary relief because you essentially regulated through sharing with another person, but we're not doing anything with it. And so this is where so many people get stuck, and also, you know, it's like when we overthink or we loop on things in our brain. What are we actually doing? We think that we're getting clarity, we think that we're, you know, solving a problem, but all we're actually doing is trying to create the illusion of control in the sense that we are literally just talking and thinking and looping, but we're not actually integrating it or alchemizing it into something that's gonna actually change the behavior. But of course, that's sticky. That's that's it's hard because it's like maybe if I understand more and I talk about it more, then I'll be ready to do the work. But then you'll notice that that day like never comes. And then as soon as you start doing the work, you're like, oh, I don't feel confident in this, I'm not doing it right. Let me go back to talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Right, right. It's almost um validating your feelings, but you it you're right. I mean, it's like you if you don't hear almost what you want to hear, you might move on to the next therapist, or you're gonna say that this person isn't understanding you're not right. You you almost don't want to accept that something could be wrong with your patterns, and it's easier to intellectualize it and be like, oh, maybe it is my partner, maybe something's wrong with them instead of recognizing that this is something that the person may trigger you, but it's still something that has to do with you at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah, 100%. And I think a lot of times it's also kind of not the awareness of what kind of therapist are you gonna go see, right? Because if you see a general uh psychologist and you like you talk about stuff, but they're not specialized in what it is that you actually need help on, they're not gonna be able to help you with the tools or being able to connect the dots and actually change the behavior, right? Because like I've had a few trauma therapists with my clients, and they're like, theory is my jam. Like, I really like I'm a psychotherapist or like I'm a trauma therapist, like I I love theory, I love telling my clients what to do, but at the end of the day, I tell them to do this because I know they're supposed to do it, but I genuinely don't know why. Like I don't know how to do it myself, and that's the thing is like if we don't know how to actually walk a client through something, and again, this is nothing against you know professionals in the field because I've had a lot of um clients explain this to me where it's like you know, they're great at understanding the terminology of things, but if you're not specialized in something and being able to like see the whole picture, then it's gonna be really hard to actually, you know, help that client be able to, you know, even if you're saying, like, okay, like we're doing this, and you know, but what about the somatic portion? Like, what are you what are you teaching them of how to actually build the tolerance to discomfort or to be able to communicate? Because it's great being able to say, like, yeah, like use items, you know, don't don't use them, don't blame your partner. But if you don't have the nervous system capacity or the ability to regulate your emotions when you're communicating, that skill is going to go out the window. So it's all about being able to integrate it all so that you can actually see the change and sustain it.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Right. So for for those who don't actually know who are listening, can you define what an avoidant attachment is and how does it differ from the others and if there are variations?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, so um we hear avoidant as like one kind of conglomerate of attachment styles. So there are two different ones, they're very different. So, what a lot of people refer to as the avoidant attachment style, they're usually referring to a dismissive avoidant in terms of someone who is just like quote unquote purely avoidant, right? Versus you have a fearful avoidant or someone with a disorganized attachment style. Technically, yes, they're avoidant, but they're not fully avoidant. And so this is kind of where the variations happen. So, but essentially, like as a whole, you'll find that avoidant attachment styles have a deep discomfort or fear around emotional intimacy. And when things feel overwhelming or intense or they're feeling stressed or whatever, they will tend to pull back to regulate or create distance rather than seek out closeness, which is like what an anxious attachment style would do, right? But um, so this is typically, I mean, and the thing is is like what is our attachment style, right? So we all have one, and you know, these two are what are considered insecure attachment relationship patterns. Essentially, you know, our attachment style is like a survival mechanism, it's a series of ways that we want to survive and connect and behave in relationship and to get our needs met as well, but also we had to learn how to adapt in our conditions. So typically you'll see um, like for fifth avoidance in particular, um, they had a very inconsistent upbringing typically that it was unstable. There was a lot of emotional unpredictability, and usually there was some form of trauma. So it could have been a big event, like a big traumatic loss in their life, or it could have been just a series of traumas, right? So essentially that means that something happened outside of their control that they didn't have the capacity to handle at the time, which is of course makes a lot of sense as a child, right? We did not have the capacity to handle things. So, um, but also with that, your caregiver was both the source of comfort and the source of fear. So sometimes they could have been affectionate and warm and you know, held space for you or whatever, but other times they were not, and so they could have been really reactive parents, they could have not had the capacity to handle emotions, and so essentially you ended up wanting that this is unsafe, that I don't know if I want closeness or if I'm afraid of it, and so you develop these two opposing drives. So, you know, an anxious attacha, obviously, they have the anxious drive and then a system, and a dismissive avoidant has the avoidance, so it's more of the shutdown, the pullback, the um they have like the single strategy systems, but for physical avoidant, you got wired with both. And so it's this contradiction that's constantly happening in your body, but so there is this fear of intimacy, but there's also such desire for it, and so that also is very different from a dismissive avoidant who again it's like that single strategy of you know, the parents were unresponsive to their emotional needs, there was profound emotional neglect. Um, they really want to rely on themselves, and so you know, they ended up suppressing a lot of their emotions down, but the fair full avoidant can do that as well, but they also feel so much that it's just very it's there's so much internal conflict happening. So, yeah, there are definitely a lot of, and of course, within you know, the fairful avoidant attachment style, there's a spectrum as well, which is also to make it even more nuanced. You know, some do lean more anxious and some lean more dismissive, and some are like more in the middle, but also it depends on also the relationship that they're in. So there's so many nuances within that attachment style, but they are very different from dismissive avoidance, even though some can appear like dismissive avoidance. That was a really long explanation.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

No, that's a great explanation. I'm just thinking about myself, even. But um, do you find that do you find that the patterns people show in relationships come up more when their partner based on their partner's attachment style? And because I I can see if someone is really anxious, it might kind of put that pressure on the person and they might become a little bit avoidant, or if they're really secure, their partner might be like, why is this person so put together? I'm not like this, and then pull back.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah. So are you referring to fearful avoidance in particular or just people in general?

SPEAKER_02 19:36

I would say fearful avoidance in general.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, so it does depend on the partner. It does. It because they are like because this this push-pull, it is very much they will mirror or they will they will respond based on how the other partner is. So again, like if they if their partner is a lot more anxious and they are going to be more avoidant in that connection because they are gonna get more overwhelmed by the anxious partner, and so they will tend to pull back. But there are obviously going to be moments where they do connect because they still have the anxious drive. But then if they have more of an avoidant partner, they're gonna appear a lot more anxious in a relationship, but also sometimes they don't because sometimes they are far more protective and they lean more dismissive. So it's like two islands in a relationship. And then if there's um like a consistent, stable, secure partner, it depends on the fearful avoidant because it depends on a, it depends on how they kind of associate connection. Like if they're more drawn to intensity and inconsistency, that stability is going to be very confusing for them, and so they might try to sabotage it unintention obviously unintentionally, because it's not what's familiar to them. So they assume that something must be wrong, but other times they actually feel better in that connection because there is stability, because you know that's what they really want, and so you know, they're able to actually navigate discomfort a lot better because they're not as activated too intensely in the connection, so there's a lot of nuances, but it definitely depends on the connection for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah. And can you explain uh how like what is happening in the body of a fearful avoidant from an like a nervous system approach? And you know, when or even and when they have that urge to deactivate and pull away.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, so um I always tell people like the internal experience is like it's very chaotic because you're just constantly like it's like you're literally waiting for danger around every corner. You're always on, like you can never fully relax. And so when things do start to relax, immediately think. Something is wrong. Like that's it's always like you are like your identity is I have to always protect, I have to prepare, I have to like be ready, right? And so you can't just exist. And so when something is happening, and I can tell you like from my experience, it's like what it felt like when I was deactivating. It's um, and this kind of like goes across the board for for most fearful avoidance anyways, but um, like when I would be deactivating, it usually came with I was hypervigilant for a long period of time, or I was I was scanning, I was constantly scanning for like what's going on, like is this safe? And I was just I was always monitoring the situation, but it usually came from either something happened that made me pull back, as in something was said or something was done, or it could be a series of events where you know, um, but it typically was when something was being like it was crossing my threshold of I felt like I was like my energy was being taken away from me and like something was expected too much of me, or I felt like I was being taken advantage of, or it was just the fact that being in connection with someone, it does require you to show up, right? And so a faithful avoidance is like used to just kind of isolating, doing their own thing, you know, just like going about the business. But when you're actually in a relationship, you have to consider the other person, you have to be consistent, you have to show up, you have to message them. You can't just ghost them all day because you don't want to message them, and so it starts compounding where you start feeling like, oh my god, like why does this person keep messaging me? Or like, why does this keep happening? Or you know, like, oh, you know, I don't like what they said. I, you know, and so it's just constantly like this, like your energy is being siphoned off, but then also it feels like you just start pulling away, but you don't even realize that it's happening, honestly. Like a lot of times, unless you are aware that this is what's happening, you don't actually realize it's happening because it's very automatic. Like if someone says something, I used to literally just pull back and go quiet, but I didn't even think of it actually impacting the other person. I thought more of like, oh, I don't like that, and then I would just go quiet, and then I wouldn't really I wouldn't engage at that point, and so it's more so of it's like an automatic response, but then your brain starts to justify it, and so there's a lot of story making happening at that point, yeah. So you start scanning for all the reasons it's not gonna work, you start focusing on all the flaws of like I don't like when they do that. Oh, that's really annoying. I'm not sure if I can keep with this up for 10 years, and so you just like really start thinking of all the ways it's not gonna work, but your brain is also always paying attention. You like the faithful avoidant brain is constantly assessing risk and it's constantly thinking, like, I don't, you know, what do I need to do to protect me? So it's going to pay attention to little things that kind of fell off at one point, and it's gonna really bring that up and start thinking of all the pieces of evidence that are going to support this. Um, so when you're deactivating, it really is like you're really starting to pull back rather than just communicating, it just becomes something where it's you just essentially distancing yourself from the other person, and it can happen throughout a relationship multiple times. I mean, it doesn't mean that the person necessarily has to leave the relationship, but it is very much this like it's almost like an invisible boundary that you put in place. Like you lock yourself in a room and then you just stop like thinking about the story, but that's kind of what it feels like. I I don't know if that really answered your question.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Is sort of your brain is not used to being safe, so it looks for its comfort zone, which is uncertainty and constantly on alert. And I guess it can mistake that safety for danger too, and kind of keep you hyper-vigilant, making sure you don't put your guard down and interpreting all of those things as a way out, even though they're they could be completely normal, or I mean every relationship has its forms and there are gaps and stuff. So that is so interesting because your brain believes what you tell it. So if you keep telling it the same story, it's yeah, going to automatically just uh raise those red flags every time you're in a relationship, or or if you continue that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, and the thing is, is like your brain is responding to the sensations in your body because those are real, yeah. But your brain is just trying to make sense of them. And what it means is like again, it's like the distancing, it it's creating distance. And so your brain is incredibly creative at whatever it needs to concoct a story to bring you back to this baseline state of safety or to bring you, put you back in the box of the familiar, it's gonna do that because, like you said, like most of the things that when people are when a fearful avoidance deactivating and they're really focusing on, it's really not a big deal. Like when you're regulated and when you know what's going on, and like I remember some of the like the most bizarre specific tiny things used to bother me, and it would be deal breakers because I think that that's like such a a state of being a fearful avoidant lives in, which is literally like crisis mode. Like it's literally like everything is an emergency, everything is a big deal, everything is so heightened because it does, it feels like that. And so when you think to yourself, like, oh my god, like this person, like there were sweatpants to dinner. Like, I don't I'm not sure if I can be in public with this person. Like, I remember like I when I was deactivating, I focused on on something like my partner's hair was like he didn't gel his hair one day, and it like really, really bothered me because I'd be like, Oh my god, like this is like he's such a slob, but he doesn't think about this stuff. Like, I I don't know if I can be in public with him, like I don't know if I'm doing this, like I feel like I'm losing myself in the relationship. I mean, it just like went into catastrophizing with like something so small, but like if you're what when I was regulated, I'd be like, Oh, it's so cute. Like, it's just like you know, it would got the ick. Yeah, no, I did. I got the ick many times in relationships, and then and a lot of times, but even like when I loved someone, like I would get the ick, and I would really like that's when I would pull back because I would I would get the ick and I'd be like, This isn't gonna work. But then the next day I'd be like, Oh, I love them so much, and it would just be like this constant thing. But it usually took me a bit to get back to it because I really had to be like whoa whoa whoa, like because I would just ghost people before and I'd be like, I can't just do that, so I need to figure out like hopefully this goes away. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

So, how do you suggest to your clients to rewire their brains when they're doing this? Like how how do you I guess also how do you decipher as someone if they are listening and they're fearful, avoidant, what is their j just their preference or things that they just don't like versus their body reacting in a way that's you know telling them, you know. Because I I mean when you're you're in a constant state of fear, you don't really think clearly. So you're that's I I just sort of how do these how do these attachment styles decipher the two?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, that's really it's it's a it's not as simple as like you just need some time, but like the big I think because I I work with a lot of clients who are in this predicament of are we just not compatible? Do I need to leave this relationship? Am I staying too long when really it's not working, or is this me? And so a big thing that I tell people is you don't need to decide this right now, you need to create a pause between the sensation and the response, because a big part is a lot of fearful avoidance will act from this feeling, and it's usually like an impulsive, like this isn't working, like I need to break up, whatever it is. Yeah, because the feeling is based on their state, and so when we are in a dysregulated or activated state, we cannot make a decision that is from clarity, and we're not gonna be able to have clarity in that situation. So, um, but oftentimes it kind of swings the other way, especially for a lot of um highly self-aware faiful avoidance, they will overintellectualize and they will start thinking, like, okay, but what is it? What is it? Like, okay, uh, is this how I feel, or is this not how I feel? And so they do actually attempt to try to figure it out in the relationship. But what ends up happening is that it creates more pressure. And so then essentially what's happening is like it's escalating to the point where it's become so overwhelming that they have to create relief, which is I need to leave, usually. That's like the last resort typically. But so a big part of this is that we have to do the nervous system work because we need to build the capacity as far as like a expanding a window of tolerance, so nervous system capacity, where we expand the window of tolerance so we can stay connected without shifting into this survival mode. But also, we need to be able to understand the awareness of what is the trajectory that's leading me to this point, because a lot of times it's like this sudden cutoff of like, we're not compatible, like this isn't working. I don't, like I just lost feelings. But really, what happened was that we missed all of the state shifts that happened before it became behavior, but it's because we're not aware of what's happening. All we know is that sensations are happening, my brain is making sense, it must be the relationship. When reality, it we need to be able to differentiate between the two, right? So actually building the skill of differentiation is really important. So, like what I would start my clients with, and it's so simple, but this is the point, is that we actually like kind of scan the body of like, do I feel hot or do I feel cold right now? Is my jaw tense or is it relaxed? Right. So we need to be able to have the actual vocabulary for what's happening so that when we start tracking the nervous system state that we're in, we can understand, like, because I know that feeling of like I'm feeling trapped, I need to leave, rather than do I just need to take a breath and slow down for a second and I don't, and I can stay one minute longer in this discomfort, right? So it's actually being able to have the language and awareness so that we can create the pause. Because if we don't, then we're not gonna be able to essentially stop it. It's just gonna escalate and we're not gonna be able to interrupt it. So and when we have that clarity, then we can start actually building the self-trust. Because a lot of it is we don't trust what's happening in our body, we don't know which version of us to believe. And so, do I stay or do I go? And so we think too much about it, and then we don't trust that we're gonna be able to respond if something comes up. So that's another big part of it, is that it's a complete lack of self-trust. And so that's where that's why we take such urgent action, is because we're afraid of being stuck, we're afraid of making the wrong choice, so we end up taking an impulsive choice because it's gotten to the point where we couldn't navigate it long enough, so we had to take the like necessary action to completely pull away.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Right. It's like self-protection, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah, like it's basically like it's gotten to the point where there was a tipping point, but we're trying to make sure it doesn't escalate to that point so that you don't feel the need to just cut the cord.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Right. I guess that's where it comes having an understanding of your childhood and any trauma you went through is helpful to recognize why you are acting the way you are, and that is why in that case therapy would be helpful. But it is important, I think, to be able to recognize what's happening in your body and that impulsive decisions are usually the ones that lead with regret later. So that that's also with your clients, um, both you know, people in partnerships or exes. Do you see a pattern of that regret in a post-breakup and how they I guess if they come to you months down the line after a breakup and they're like, I am regretting this breakup, I don't know what led me here. I made this impulsive decision. Do you find that they kind of process it later than than a secure attachment would in a breakup?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah, for sure. Um, avoidance in general are quite slow processes, they're internal processes as well, but faible avoidance often do times oftentimes do regret. Um that's actually a really big feeling that faible avoidance don't like feeling, hence the reason why they're so conflicted of making decisions and things like that. But it also depends on why they broke up or if they discarded, because you know, they are different, but also how how if they're actually processing things and they had the space to be able to regulate to the point where they're starting to kind of reflex on things, they will get to the point of regret. Um, I do have a lot of clients that come to me being like, I can't believe that I did that, I didn't actually want that. And you know, and that's the thing is like a lot of the decisions or a lot of the behaviors are driven by this intense intensity of like I just need relief now. So it's very much like a temporary, like, I just need relief, rather than it's what they actually want. And most of the time it's very contradictory, but that's the thing, is their behaviors oftentimes don't reflect what's actually happening inside or what's what they actually want. But it comes down to I just need I need to reduce the overwhelm, I need to reduce the intensity, and your brain tends to jump to well, like this sounds like a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah, yeah. Especially if there's a lot overwhelming them at once. That yeah is the nearest thing that you could get away from. So it's yeah, the easiest thing to Yeah, I feel a lot more discards.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, discards tend to happen when there are definitely other external factors, like because the window of tolerance for a faible avoidant is so much smaller than other attachment styles, like so the Wi-Fi not working will send them into like a survival state. Like it's so small. And so when you have other factors like work stress, family stress, finances, something happening, they're not getting the job, there's instability in other areas of their life, that is going to add so much stress to them, which is going to make it's going to have so much pressure on the relationship. So for them, the like to their system, the thing that's causing them the most quote unquote pain is the relationship. So if they just remove a factor, then they'll be able to regulate. But in reality, it's because they they they don't really they struggle to be able to stay connected and stay safe. So it's literally like cutting off a factor, and that's causing them the most overwhelm. Um but yeah, so typically I'll see discards happening with that as a factor.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Yeah. So they're unable to stay present in the moment and keep thinking kind of working in, I guess, black and whites instead of that gray area, which just life is uncertain. You don't know if things are gonna work out, but it sounds like because they had that hot and cold upbringing, it's in most cases, they're used to that and they can't they almost don't believe people when they say, you know, I'm here and I'm with you and I'm not going to cheat on you, I'm not gonna do this, that, and it sounds like they can't it's uh it's like a mistrust again in themselves, but also with other people and the people closest to them.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah, 100%. Because, you know, the driving wound is the betrayal wound. So there is this unconscious belief that's always being carried that I can't trust anyone, and it's not necessarily the people that they can't trust, it's more so of I don't trust that safety lost, I don't trust that you're not gonna leave when things get hard. And so it's and I don't trust that I'm gonna be able to sustain this or whatever it is, but it really is this like especially with absolutes when someone says, like, I'll always be here, I'll never leave you, or whatever it is. That's always like really tricky language because it will be like, Well, you said always, and here you are, right? So it's very black and white thinking, but it's also they'll often use absolute language as well, where you know, because there is a part of them in the moment that is true for them, and that's what is also really confusing, is that you know, because you know, I mean, I grew up with that as well because I grew up with incredibly inconsistent parents. My both my parents have very unhealed fetal avoidance themselves, so with their own set of things, but it's it was very much like I was let down so many times that when someone says something like you know, like, oh, I'll always be there, I'm like, I want that, but I, you know, we'll see, we'll see, right? Because I mean that's kind of like what I ended up learning with my parents was that yeah, like they would always promise something and they would be really excited about it. And there were so many times that I believed them growing up that I would be so let down every single time to the point where I I got to it to the point where I was like, okay, yep, okay, sounds good, we'll see. You know, but then it's it's sad because then you end up learning that you like words mean nothing at that point, right? And it's very true for faithful avoidance, is your actions matter more than your words. It's all about the congruency. Like, do your words match your actions? Which is ironic because they're often very inconsistent in relationships, but like that's a huge thing, is like when you say that you're gonna do something, do you do it? Did you if you told me this story two months ago, why did you change this detail? Like, I need to I need to know, right? So, but it is, it comes back to trust, it comes back to you know, it comes back to safety. But a big thing is it's about trust.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Do you find that a lot of fearful avoidance or avoidance in general tend to look for partners who are also avoidant as a comfort measure, almost like oh, if I pick someone who's unavailable emotionally or unavailable, or I know deep down it won't work out, it keeps me safe because there's just no uh it kind of it sets you up to avoid that heartbreak.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Yeah, I mean it's it's we our nervous system is attracted to what's familiar, not what's best for us, right? So, and the same thing with our subconscious. So it's it is very much we you see a pattern of who you tend to be in a relationship with, and that goes for anyone, but fearful avoidance do tend to be attracted to um it depends also on the fearful avoidant, like which wounds, like if they leave more anxious or they lean more avoidant, or you know, it depends on their familiar dynamics, but you'll notice that they do tend to be in more relationships that um like that have that push-pull, that have the intensity, that have the roller coaster. And so, but some may be more attracted to a dismissive avoidant, like the mystery of like trying to figure them out and like chasing them. And you know, I find that that's from they had one parent that was like really unavailable, and so it's almost like they're trying to like unimprove and and chase this love, but also I find with a lot of avoidant women in particular, they will tend to date a lot of unavailable people like that, and they will tend to be more anxious, and then it gets to a point where they've been hot so many times that it swings the other way. So then they actually meet someone who's reciprocates, and then now it becomes a completely different dynamic. But it is something that, like, I know for me, like I would be attracted to people that were unavailable and I knew I would never be in a relationship with because I was terrified of being in a relationship. So I would always be the flut, or I would be the one that got away, or I would be it would be like the almost, the the potential. And so we'd have like these little crushes, but as soon as something was reciprocated to me, I immediately I like would shut down and I would run away. So but that's the thing is like you're always chasing the fantasy and the intensity and the potential rather than if something's actually in front of you, it doesn't feel the way that you thought it would. Or it scares you so much that it just keeps reinforcing that it's safer for me not to be in one. So you're either constantly wanting to be in a relationship or you're staying away from them entirely. And it it does, it kind of oscillates depending on your history and the dynamic. Because I know that for me it did change throughout the history of my dating because like, you know, my experiences impacted how her or you know how protective I became, and then it got to a point where I literally just stayed out of dating and relationships entirely for years because I just couldn't develop feelings for people. Like I just literally, my body wouldn't allow me to be in a relationship and be attracted to somebody.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah. Do you think that social media has made people more avoidant, even if they have maybe a great upbringing, just in maybe not in the same not in the same sense of they're fearful avoidant and they're not used to being treated a certain way, but just the culture of choice and you know having all these options online for dating and um you just see a lot online about you know girls getting love bombed and then discarded and the person comes on so strong and then moves on to the next person really fast. So what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. I think our our dating culture has really set us up for really unhealthy dynamics because first of all, I mean, I remember like going back to when I was a kid, the kind of advice that you'd see it was all about games, it was about strategies, it was about what are you getting out of this relationship? It was very focused on um it was very focused on like a checklist. It was very focused on like look for red flags, look for this, look for that. But then I find that a lot of people struggle because people don't understand what a relationship entails. And so dating in general, it's very much like as soon as something gets hard, people walk away or they stay in a dynamic that is not great, but it's a little very it seems like for me the dating culture now is very transactional, it's very surface level, it's kind of set us up for, I mean, look at the divorce rates, like divorce rates are insanely high now, and part of it is because people are getting in marriages that aren't really ready for like they don't have the foundation yet, or things were really solvable and they just didn't know or do it, right? So I find that, and of course, this is just my opinion, but I find that people tend like as a whole, I feel like our society gives up really easily on relationships, and so uh, you know, like I mean, I just like I mean all my friends, they're like, Yeah, like this person was really annoying, I stopped messaging them, or like, you know, they'll be like, um, it's just the way that we kind of approach it, it's so I think it's just really unintentional. I think a lot of dating now is really unintentional. It's very much about, well, what can I get out of it? Oh, this person's not meeting my needs. I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna go somewhere else. So yeah, and I think what's interesting though is that I feel like there's a a whole nother perspective for women where we're it's okay, this might be controversial, but I was actually speaking to um, because I mean I have a lot of men that are clients, so like I obviously like I want to hear their perspective on things, but yeah, you know, um there's this huge rise in like women being like high value, like I'm gonna like it's all about risk, you know, I'm gonna receive, you know, this person has to take care of me and all these things. But like, yes, in theory, that's great, but however, how does that contribute to a reciprocal relationship? Because what that essentially teaches us is that the man has to give and give and give, and it's not gonna be enough. And then what does like it's I think what I feel like I'm trying to explain this. I feel like I can do like a whole seminar on this, but like I think really what it what I found is I think not necessarily avoidance per se, but I think that I think yes, to answer your question, I think that our dating culture has definitely created avoidance, but it's cloaked as it's like it's it's it's disguised as like I know my worth or I I don't need anyone, like I'm good on my own, or whatever it is. Protecting your peace. Yes, protecting your peace. Oh yes, protecting your peace, but it is so it is, it's a bit avoidance. And I think that now our dating culture, and honestly, a lot of personal development culture in general, like I think it is fueling this idea that as soon as something is hard, we don't engage and we don't have to stay and try to figure it out or repair. And like it's always the other person's problem, and that you know, I I think that as well, it's kind of fueling this idea of non-reciprocal relationships as far as what a relationship actually entails. So it's not just about this person needs to love you, you you need to love a person the way that you think the person needs to be loved, and they need to have the same needs and love languages as me. It's more so of how can we connect as humans and walk through something rather than this person has to be so compatible with me. And if they're not, then it's not gonna work out. But I think it's so multi-layered, like in the sense that I feel like I maybe I didn't answer your question very clearly.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, to answer your question, yes, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

I fully, I fully agree. I think we have you know, it's even goes back to the ick thing and how it it's it can be really funny when you hear these verses of these videos. Yeah, talking about it. And and I get that in some cases, I mean everyone has gotten the ick at one point or another, but yeah, we kind of treat people like they're disposable and yes, while people, yes, they're replaceable in some cases, you also they're they're human beings, and yeah, we have to you know if they have 80% of what you're looking for in a partner and that 20% is a deal breaker, then that's fine. But if that's just you being picky and you're not able to work through that the rest of that with them, then there's obviously some introspection you have to have.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

100%. And I think it's like we've mistaken standards for self-protection. Well, self-protection has standards in the sense that, like, yeah, a lot I I hear a lot of like, oh, I'm just really picky, or like, oh yeah, like the men out there are terrible, like whatever it is. And it's just like okay, but I think also, like, I mean, I again, like a lot of my friends are on dating apps and they're saying things like, oh yeah, I ghosted them because you know they they didn't respond to me, or you know, people ghost me, so I'm gonna ghost them. It's just like, where are we gonna move from here if we're just matching the same behavior that other people do? Because this is why we keep perpetuating the issue, right? And saying but then I yeah, and I think also people lack personal ownership because I hear a lot, I shouldn't have to do that. They should just know, or I shouldn't have to do that because you know, it it's it's the avoidance problem, or they're the ones doing it to me, and you know, it avoidance in general are villainized a lot, and it's always the they're the ones and and I feel justified for why I did it because they were being mean to me, or whatever it is, and it's just like, but where's the personal ownership and how you're showing up? And they think that, or where's the personal ownership of your dating life or the patterns that you keep repeating? Okay, there's a reason why this keeps happening, and I think that people are getting more curious about it now as a whole, but I definitely think that there is a huge gap that people are complaining about, and we're trying to find a solution, which I'm really grateful that there are people who are leading this because I mean, and it's even something here like I'm creating an intentional dating event here because it's true, like people don't know like the questions to ask, they don't know they don't know how to actually intentionally date or what they're looking for. All they know is the outdated information that doesn't work, and so um, but it definitely there are more approaches that people are open to because it is, it's such a problem, and I don't know where you're located, but London the dating scene is a bit scary, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Scary everywhere, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think also it's hard to navigate when you are absorbing this content online that's telling you if your boyfriend is not doing this, then you're with the wrong person, or if your girlfriend's not doing this, you're with the wrong person, and that just instigates those insecurities and those fears. 100% and you're not really able to you don't really know what you want, and then when you have something good, you don't even know how to recognize it because you you just are in your own head, you're you're overthinking too much, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

And like that's the thing is like we have so much information out there, but a lot of it is incorrect information, and so but people a lot of it's like quick bake information. So people are like, oh my gosh, like this is gonna get me a result, or this is gonna get me like instant like behavior change, whatever it is. But it's also I think that what people lack a lot now is discernment between what is actually helpful and versus like I feel like we rely so much on, you know, how does social media impact it? We rely so much on instant gratification, instant information and access to things. And it's like we are so terrible, like we can't be bored, we can't slow down, we can't just like take a moment and be like, hmm, let me think about this for a second before I make a decision, right? It's like it's all very kind of urgent now. And I think that like I think we live in a society now that is so dysregulated and so distrustful and so disconnected that it is, it's like a fundamental issue, like as a whole, but it doesn't impact all areas of our life, including dating.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

I know we have the we're so fortunate to have the access to be connected, but we are yet the most disconnected and confused and lonely and just disorganized group of people trying to navigate romantic relationships and even friendships, too. I think people are just so used to performing almost online and being this persona that they don't really know how to even be with themselves, let alone with another person, without the phone involved at all.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Oh my gosh, I know. I I've seen that where like I'll go out and I I don't like to pull my phone when I'm when I'm around other people, but I'll go out and I'll see people and like I saw this group of friends and they didn't they barely spoke to each other, they were just on their phones the entire time. And that's the thing is like we are with people, we're not with people. And yeah, we it's like when you know you have a parent that, yeah, you were there, you were physically there, but you weren't present, and that's what people are missing is presence, and that's what I feel like. I mean, it starts with ourselves, like we're so disconnected from ourselves that I know that like humans as a whole, like we're always looking for something. We know that something is missing, but we don't know what it is, and so it's like you know, but that's what we try to find in relationships, or that's what we try to find in, you know, all these different areas and facets of our lives. But I think humans as a whole know that there's something missing as far as connection-wise, but I mean, luckily we have a lot more thought leaders and people in the field trying to help people create that because people do want a solution, they just don't know what it is, or they're just not looking, or they're not like really at that point where they're curious about oh, wonder what I can do to change something, rather than what does everyone around me need to change so that I feel better.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Right. And not just recognizing that you have a problem, but actually making steps to change it instead of acknowledging that you have this, but yeah, you don't have to and that leads to this question that I have about as a recovered fear of full avoidance, does that fear ever really go away? And do you or do you just become more skilled in recognizing what triggers you and is it possible to change attachment styles? Obviously, we kind of touched on that before, but yeah, I guess you could even revert to a an attachment style that isn't secure from fearful avoidant, as you said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Yeah, so I mean that's the beauty of it, is that we can heal our attachment style and become secure functioning, right? So, but what that means is that you still have the architecture of your insecure attachment style because that's how you were originally wired. But you can, it's like if you think about it like software, like you have the original like kind of hardware, and yeah, it was originally you've got the old outdated software, but the thing is you can update it. So as far as like, does it do you just become skilled at managing it? Secure functioning, like not only it's it's all about the triggers don't fully go away. Now I can tell you that things that used to literally send me into an absolute panic mode, like because I also used to have CPTSD, so it's like I literally would get so triggered and I would, I would, I mean, I would see red, like I was completely offline, but I can tell you now, like those things do not trigger me in the same way. I feel the urge coming up, and I'm like, this makes me uncomfortable. But and I can feel the urge where I want to do something, but I also have the capacity to pause and I stay like my prefrontal cortex stays online, and I can be like, Yeah, I don't like this. This is I am a little triggered right now. And so I can then be like, okay, how do I respond to this? Because how you respond to the triggers is what changes as well. Like you actually are able to resolve experiences so that things don't impact you the same way, but it doesn't mean that things just completely go away. And I think that that's what a lot of people have a misconception on is that magically everything has changed, and you never feel anxious and you never get triggered, and you know, these protection strategies don't come up anymore, and it's like, yeah, of course they do, but not to the same degree. And obviously, some things trigger me more than others, and that's okay. I'm also a human and I accept that, but that in itself, having that relationship with myself, knowing that, hey, yeah, I got a little reactive in that moment, it's okay. Like, you know, I can repair, I can come back. That in itself, that's secure functioning, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:37

Because that's even secure people get yeah, secure people does their shit sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Like it's like we're human. Yeah, yeah. But that's the whole thing is that you your complete relationship to yourself and to to your into your reactions and to your responses, everything changes, but also there's the the space in between, so it's not the immediate I feel something, I act on it, right? And I still have doubts and I still don't trust myself 24-7. I'm a human again. But the point is, is that then I can be like, hey, okay, I didn't really make the most aligned choice just then. That's okay. I can understand that I can understand where it came from, I can notice it, and then I can come back to myself, but it's also it's consistently I respond in a lot more secure way than I would in like an insecure or protective way.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah. Do you notice that some of these attachment styles go hand in hand with other mental illnesses? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Yeah, I see that I see that I say that a lot, um, in the sense that like I have ADHD and I have OCD, and like, you know, I had CPTSD, like I had all of CPTSD. Yeah, P P PTSD. Yeah, I always kind of do excuse. But so like I do notice this a lot with vital avoidance in particular, but it makes a lot of sense because you know, it's an adaptation to trauma, and like I also notice that there's such an influx with ADHD now as well. Like, yeah, but also we live in such an overstimulating world, and like we have to adapt as well. And so I think but I do notice that a lot of people label something as like, oh, it's just my ADHD, and I'm like, well, maybe is something happening underneath this that we actually are not addressing the route. So I do notice that there is an overlap with a lot of things as well. Um, yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah. Um, I guess so to close out the episode, what is a piece of advice that you could give to our listeners who maybe are recognizing that they have these patterns? To work with you. Um to work with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

So I think that um I think a honestly, like I think a big thing is to not overconsume information because I think it's really easy to get into the mode of I'm just gonna keep watching and watching and watching. But what that actually ends up doing is it's it's a nervous system attempt at it's like procrastination, it's literally trying to protect you from doing the work, and something that I think a big thing that people struggle with is that how do I even get started? Like, where do I even begin? Because for a lot of fearful avoidance, it is the process that's the hardest part because they want to get to the other side, they just want it to be over and get to the other side, so yeah, which makes sense. I get it, I was there too. But I think a big thing is that the first thing that I would say is you do not need to figure it all at once, out at once, and you can take one step at a time. And there is, I think just the simple fact of you can heal this, is what I would say. Like you can change this, and your whole life you thought that you would always be like this. I promise you, this can change. Like, I am literally proof of that, my clients are proof of that this can be changed. And I think just offering hope and understanding that there is a there is a pathway, there is a way for you to change these behaviors is one of the I think it it helps provide hope to people. So I think that's probably the piece of advice I'd give.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

Yeah, that's amazing. I think it's it's daunting the task to get help and heal yourself, but healing is painful and it's not comfortable. And if it was, everyone would be healed.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

So 100% makes sense. Yeah, it was the hardest thing I did. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, I always tell my clients that too. I'm like, this will be the hardest thing you will do, but I promise you, if you keep going, you will be so grateful that you did.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Right. And it's short-term pain for a long-term success.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

So 100%. Yeah, like I I think that it got to a point where the pain of staying the same outweighs the discomfort of changing it because that that's the thing, is it's temporary discomfort. It feels like it's gonna last forever, but it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Totally, yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I encourage everyone to follow your TikTok and Instagram. Your content is so good, it is so nice and refreshing. Uh, even though we just said don't absorb too much content, but absorb your content. It's just such a refreshing take from someone who has been through it rather than from the other side where people, you know, are valid validating to just avoid these people and never give them a chance and to recognize that it's it's not people are multifaceted and we have to we have to be kinder. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. No problem. Join our community. Subscribe now to Head Case because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.