IALEFI's Zero'd In Episode 4 Lt. Brian Murphy

On this episode, our guest is Lt. Brian Murphy, retired from the Oak Creek, Wisconsin Police Department, and one of the most compelling voices in law enforcement training today.

On August 5th, 2012, Brian was the first officer on scene at the Sikh Temple mass shooting — one of the deadliest attacks on American soil that year. He was struck by 15 rounds, lost part of his thumb, and had a bullet come to rest behind his carotid artery. He was alone, his long gun was inaccessible, and the gunman he faced had been practicing 300 rounds a week and had scouted the location twice.

Brian didn't just make it out. He stayed in the fight, communicated with arriving units, and helped bring the incident to a close.

In this conversation with IALEFI President Greg Pickering, Brian breaks down what the 2012 shooting revealed about the state of officer readiness, what firearms instructors need to prioritize right now, and the one message he leaves with every audience he speaks to across the country.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Zeroed In, the podcast brought to you by ILFE, the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors. I'm your host, Greg Pickering, and whether you're a seasoned instructor, a law enforcement professional, or someone passionate about firearms training excellence, you're in the right place. Each episode, we bring you expert insights, real-world experiences, and actionable strategies that you can take straight to the range. Because when it comes to firearms instruction, precision matters, not just in marksmanship, but in every aspect of how we teach, train, and prepare professionals for the field. So lock in, stay focused, and let's get zeroed in.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Hey, welcome back, ILFi family. Again, Greg Pickering, President of ILFi. I am honored to be joined today by Lieutenant Brian Murphy from the Oak Creek, Wisconsin Police Department. Um, retired. Um, and uh I'll tell you if uh you don't know Brian's story, uh, you're in for a treat today. Um, man, it's uh so I got to do a little bit of uh just kind of to set the stage. So it's probably 2014, 2015. So we're three or four years after this incident. I'm coming back from the IACP conference in Orlando, and our flight back to Portland gets delayed. Um, so a buddy of mine are there. We sit down in these nice, comfy armchairs, uh, waiting to try to figure out how to kill some time. And I look to my left, and who's there but Lieutenant Brian Murphy? And this guy doesn't know me from Adam, and he probably doesn't remember this interaction. But I was like, oh my gosh, and I kicked the guy with me. I said, Oh my gosh, this is Brian Murphy. And he's like, Who? Not a firearms guy. Uh, and so uh I struck up a conversation with Brian, and I gotta tell you, um, one of the most humble, uh, inspirational, probably 15, 20 minute conversation that was probably just a blip on the radar for you, Brian. But for me, it was hugely impactful. Um, so you know, I just appreciate the guy that you are, I appreciate the man that you are and uh who you were and as an officer. And so I'm really excited today to get an opportunity to sit down and chat with you about what you went through back in 2012, what happened that day, what you learned, what we can take away as firearms instructors, and we can depart to our members. So uh without further ado, Brian, I'll have you just give a quick synopsis of uh that faithful day in August back in 2012.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

All right. I so it's uh August 5th, 2012. It's my off day because my last name is Murphy and it's Murphy's Law. Shit's gonna happen on my watch, right? So uh we get a call at 1025 in the morning that there's a possible fight at the Sea Temple. So if I start heading up there, then as I'm going, call gets upgraded to possible shots and then shots. So I I know I'm gonna be there almost exactly when uh the next responding officer is. So uh as I'm going, I'm running it through my head, when have we been there? What have we gone through? And it was a fight there about six months prior between two people that got escalated to uh a, I think a bat and a knife. So in my head, I'm thinking, okay, this is probably the same two guys, maybe it just escalated. So I remember asking, and I was worried about uh uh was the guy on the scene with the gun leaving? So when you go to the temple, it's a big long entry in. It's only one way in, one way out. And my concern was if I made the turn in, that person would be leaving with the gun, and and I didn't want it to go mobile and all that. So uh anyway, I get there. It took a minute and 59 to get there. Uh, pull in. There's uh a body down next to a car, get out, check them. They were obviously deceased. See a guy come out of the front of the temple. Um he starts running to my right, his left. Didn't see anything at the time in his hands, but it's a parking lot, so there's cars, and then am I gonna drag it out? And then all of a sudden, his hand flips up. He's got a gun. I already have my gun out. We shoot at 42 yards. He's running away, not even looking at me, and I'm moving, and his shot hits me right in the face, uh, bounces off my jaw, goes down, hits my spine, and it lodges uh right behind my carotid. So felt like a really good punch. Uh I go down, uh, check myself, and first thought is shit, I'm in a gunfight. And you know, it's kind of surreal, it doesn't happen every day. And next thought is, all right, let's let's get it on. So I'm looking to where he was running to. I don't see him. Uh remember, I fired my weapon, so my hearing is not the best. Uh step out from behind the car. I was done, I thought I was on the X too long. It was about 10 and a half seconds to step out. But what had happened was he had as he was running, took that shot. He took two, three steps, and then he came back around the opposite way and flanked me. So as I'm stepping in front of the car, if I'm facing 12, he's at like seven. And next shot, uh, hits me in the hand, takes my thumb off, uh, gun goes flying, and he continues shooting, hits me in the upper arm, and he hits me in the in my femur. Uh, it went in, bounced off my femur, and came out my my grunt. Uh so I'm I'm kind of screwed at this point, no weapon, I'm I'm getting blasted. So the only thing I have is uh uh there's a vehicle there. Go under the car, stick my vest out. He walks by, shoots me a couple times in the vest, and then it got super quiet. And and uh all they can think of is all right, I gotta I gotta make a plan, and my thought is I gotta get back to my squad. If I get in my squad, then I can run them over. And but in my head, it's like I composed myself, got my breath back. Uh, and in my head, this is like 30 seconds, and as it turns out, when he went by, he shot and then ran out of ammo. So when I roll out from home to the car, he reloads, uh, and then he just opens up and uh keeps going. Uh I'm moving backwards. And it did, and and I'm sure we'll talk about this later, Greg, but the truth of the matter was he had practiced for this for so long that this was second nature to him. And and I think that's probably, you know, when when I when I go and debrief this, that's one of the things that I stress the most is, especially in active shooter situations, there are people out there who are practicing this every day. And in their head, they're running it through, they're running it through. He told his girlfriend, every time I pull the trigger, I see a head explode. So his cognitive resiliency is off the charts. And again, we're just we don't know what's going on. So you you arrive at a different level. So long story short, I flip over. I'm still in my head, I gotta get to the squad. And a couple more shots come, and then the last shot comes. It hits the strap that connects your back panel to your front panel of your vest, skimmed off and went into the back of my head. Uh, and that one just flattens me. And uh then my partner, Sam uh Linda, arrived on scene and they exchanged gunfire. Uh Sam, who is a uh they we're not allowed to say sniper because it's unruly. Uh we use selected marksmen in Wisconsin. Uh, but Sam was uh Sam was a sniper. He he's been around, and uh he hit him, it transected him, went in his oblique, and it got stuck in the other one, then the uh bad guy goes down, didn't die right away. Uh but very shortly thereafter took out his uh took his gun and ended his own life. So from there, uh they did an officer rescue, loaded me up in a rig, and the rest the rest is over.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

So yeah, wow. It's an incredible story. Um, you know, it's uh I've had the opportunity to listen to your presentation a few times, and I I'm so impressed with I think the biggest thing that I take out of all of this was just the mental preparation. And and maybe it wasn't as you've talked about before in other podcasts and then presentations, you know, it may not have been something that you consciously thought about, but just you talk about your upbringing as a kid and you know, getting in scraps as you're growing up and then being in the Marine Corps, being in the embassy, having these opportunities to really just prepare yourself for what it looks like to be in a battle. So when you find yourself, and I, you know, one of the most intriguing pieces of me, if if you ever have the opportunity to see Brian speak in person and he shows video clips, is the video clip when they load you into the back of you of your patrol car, and you're as you're as calm as a cucumber. I mean, you've been shot 15 times, right? You're missing part of your thumb, you've been shot in the throat, you got bullets in the back of the head, and you're you're calm, and you're that is all mental preparation. That is all staying in the fight the entire time. So I mean, we kind of touched, I kind of touched on it a little bit, you know, not doing it justice, but you know, give us your perspective on what that really looks like and what that leads to, having that mental preparation of walking yourself through and being prepared for these situations.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Yeah, that the old saying, iron sharpens iron, is is it's a true statement and it's a fact. And and I think because I I learned very early on that it sounds weird, but pain is not your enemy. Pain sometimes you you need to go through it uh to realize what you're capable of. And and all those different times being you know one of the smallest guys in the neighborhood in Brooklyn, getting in scraps then, and then you just learn, you know what, everything's a test. And uh it could go all the way back to, I remember my my sister, who was two years older than me, we would have I'm sure you had to, uh, a staring contest, right? You can't blink. So my sister was deadly at this point, but you just learn, like it's painful, but you get over it, and and then you come to realize, you know what, the more I do things like that, then when something lesser happens, it's not a big thing. And and I I look at things now, like my my son's older, and I remember talking to him when he was in high school, which was six years ago, and saying, you know, well, where do guys go to duke it out? And he said they don't. And and it it shocked me in as much as what's gonna happen then when you do get into a fight. Yeah. You know, that then you know this. Like I go around, I talk to academies and whatnot, and you you talk to these young kids today, and a lot of them have never been in a scrap, have never been in a really good knockdown drag out fight. So you don't know what your capabilities are, and and that's not where your starting point should be. Because that and and and you know this, I throw a slide up. You know, but if you had to train knowing that you're gonna be in a fight tomorrow, how hard would you train today? And people are always like, well, I would, I wouldn't. And the answer is, yeah, but how do you know you're not going tomorrow? Yeah, do you know what I mean? How do you know when you go to your car, somebody's not gonna jack you, and all of a sudden it's on now? So again, you don't you don't get to pick when bad shit happens. It picks you. And if if it's you don't have that mental preparation, not only do you not only do you lose part of that battle, but you're gonna, and and and this is a kind of a hard concept to fully wrap around. But those that's what's gonna make things more traumatic. That's where you're going to uh unfortunately lead more into PTS related incidents because you've never experienced it. And now this is an absolute overwhelming shock to the system. Uh and I I I know for me what I I learned uh, especially when I was in the Marines, is that the person who's in charge really dictates how everybody goes in a in a volatile situation. If you can remain calm, everybody remains calm. And if and calm is contagious. And if that happens, man, you make way better decisions. Uh, and and even as far as your own health goes, like for me, by the time I got to the to the level one trauma center, my blood pressure was normal, my respirations were normal. You know, the firemen were called, they called me the iceman because he was like, man, dude, he was just as cool as a cucumber. And I just thought, you know what, there's a lot on the line. Not only my own life, but my my guys, if my guys are like off the charts because I'm yelling and screaming, maybe a bad incident happens there. And, you know, as it happened, like two minutes after they take me out, a guy comes out of the front of the temple, and the distance from where it was, uh, the the guys were were um stationed and and set up a perimeter to the entrance of the temple was actually fairly far, and they couldn't see it, and he had a black thing in his hands, and he's kind of waving it all around, and they were ready to light him up. And as it turns out, it was a cell phone. But having that everybody was on that lower plane, so I think everybody made better decisions.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah, it makes total sense. And you know, I know we touched on it a little bit, but you you got struck 15 times with 15 bullets. And in the middle of that fight, as as the Sam shows up and puts the round into the bad guy, the bad guy goes down, you know, they're looking for you. They're trying to find out, hey, where's Murphy? Where's Murphy? Trying to figure out where you are. And you have the sense and the wherewithal to be able to roll out from underneath the cars or move out in between the cars where they can see you, and then again, be able to give descriptions. It's one shooter, there's one, you know, and and again, I think it's just a testament to the preparation that you had and the ability to stay calm under pressure and continue to move in a direction that that you know provided safety for all of those incoming officers and all those other responders that were showing up. So it's incredibly commendable, Brian.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

And and uh it's funny, and we talked about this when I after that shot in the head, I I kind of shook it off and then and the cavalry arrived, thankfully. But like you said, I crawled out, and that's where Sam goes, you know, officer down, and he caught me. And I I was worried about the people inside the temple. I was worried about the the people that were down on my guys, but I was more concerned because I was supposed to go on my honeymoon in eight days, and I'm like, my wife's gonna kill me if I die. So I had that it was just one of those random thoughts, like you're like, shit, she's gonna kill me. I'm we ain't going on a honeymoon.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

So uh it's it's funny, like even in those situations that you get intrusive thoughts and whatnot, but so as we talk about your experiences and what you went through, and we look at how they relate to training. So I know that you now travel all over the country um providing training to new officers, to groups like ILFE, and you know, and and get the opportunity to share your experience and what you've learned. So when you talk about active shooter training and the response to active shooter training from your experience and and what you've studied and what you've learned, like what what are those things that you see are probably the biggest flaws or things that at agencies and officers really need to focus on when we talk about responding to an incident like this?

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Okay, so uh one, which I think is absolutely beyond huge, is I'm and a lot of people disagree with me, and that's fine. But if you have a long gun sitting next to you in a squad, there's no reason why it shouldn't be charged. I'm I'm sorry. And I I then you know this because I show Sam's video. So from the time Sam gets out, uh or gets on Tory, he yells the first time he yells, drop the gun, which is obviously the guy's pointing at him till he shoots is 33 seconds, man. And and part of that, and again, Sam is our firearms instructor, he's a sniper, he's all these things. And as much as you train, and you should it we'll get in, you know, training is important, but dynamics change when there's actually rounds going. That's just the nature of the beast. But not having that weapon charge is just huge. And there's I I keep hearing, and I you know, I speak at Chiefs' conferences and whatnot, and I'm like, well, why would you not have a round in that in the long gun? And the answer is always AD, right? Yeah. Well, if there's an accidental discharge, and I I always said, Where where is the where's the muzzle pointed? Okay, the roof of the car. So what happens to that round when it goes through the roof of the car and uh and with the squad light, it's gonna break apart. It's it and nothing is gonna happen, but I will show you a video that a trained, well-trained officer took 33 seconds to get his gun up on target charge and fire around. And that's a trained guy. I'm and I'm sure, like you, there's guys you know all around the country who are not. Yeah. And they don't practice with it, they shoot qual once a year, and that's that. So I remember I taught at the FBI National Academy for five years. So it's 250 guys four times a year. So you you add all that up, and in those five years, I asked the same question: do you allow a loaded weapon long gun? Only one guy. One guy out of 5,000. And and I stopped and I go, why? And he said, I was a platoon leader in Fallujah, and I sure as shit wouldn't let my guys go out with an uncharged weapon then. Why would I do it now? And I was like, that that's hard to argue with, man. It's so one, we don't have the weapon charge, two, we don't practice with long guns nearly as much as we should. Uh I think the other thing as as well has to be even that team concept. Yeah, I know there's a single officer response, and that's that's absolute and it's huge. But knowing where your people are going to be, and I guess the other thing too, Greg, I think is super important is if you're a range master and you're training guys, you need, you watch them shoot. And if you know they're jacked under scenario situations, man, you got to redo that. You have you have to retrain this. Because if we're letting people out there are all hyped up in training, what the hell's gonna happen when it's real? Yeah. And and and you know that more than more than anybody. Like what you do in training is what you bring to the street. So if you don't have one dialed in, the other's never gonna be dialed in. So that those things and knowing your equipment, you shouldn't know all your equipment inside and out, how to release it when electronics don't work, you know, and do it every day. That that needs to be second nature. It just and there's still last thing, why the fuck is the long gun in the trunk? What when are we getting beyond that? Like when do you get and and I say it all the time, you get sent to a call and you're literally a minute away. So your long gun and your your your armor kits in the trunk, when are you getting it? And and if you get there, are you gonna stop and pop a trunk and start putting on all your gear and get your long gun? I that you know, there's there's a volume of things that that were things that weren't bad, it's just things that needed correcting. Uh, and I know at Oak Creek, they the all our stuff was in the trunk on August 5th. It was all in the front seat on August 6th.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Because it was like, we're not waiting. It's it's gotta be now. So I I think some of that is you get you gotta stop waiting and just say, no, this needs to be done right now, because it could be somebody's life.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

It yeah, and that's you know, those points you bring up are are are super valid and uh they make a total a ton of sense. You know, we have the opportunity with ILFE to meet people from all over the country and we have these same discussions. And and so, you know, those points are just those are things that are awesome. Um, you know, I want to touch back a little bit when we talk about training and you know, I being in this job for almost 30 years, you know, looking across the country as we go, average police departments qualify once a year, twice a year. Maybe three times a year if they're lucky. You know, in your incident, you're talking about a guy who was shooting 300 rounds a week and was, I mean, so as you talk about this, wasn't this wasn't just an off-the-cuff situation. This was rehearsed. This wasn't a situation where he was prepared mentally and physically. You talk about in some of the other conversations, you talk about he showed up the day before and he he walked through and got a layout of the of the inside of the temple. Twice. Yeah, I mean, this is a this is a planned out, you know, much like we would see in a tactical event, you know, in a police department, doing floor plans, doing layouts, doing, you know, thinking about the raid, how this is going. This is what you encountered on that day was a guy who was physically, mentally prepared and was ready to go. And as you talked about, as you rolled out from under the car and looked at him in the face, he no, no emotion. This was just part of the plan. This was how he was going. And so I I think, you know, one of the messages that we try to get out to, you know, to the members of ILFia who, you know, are firearms instructors, and some of them in agencies that are small, some of them in agencies that are large, is that we have to find a way. I get budget dollars are are tight. I get training time is tight, getting off. But how do we as instructors convince our students that on their time, at on their opportunities, they have to work on their craft, they have to work on their draw, their side picture. As we've now introduced red dots to you know, pistols around the country, you know, if if our if our officers aren't taking the opportunity, at least on a weekly basis, not of a daily basis, to draw that pistol and acquire a dot, I mean, they're doing themselves a disservice. And again, the the more things that we can do to encourage people, just rep after rep after rep, because as we're learning from the research, and as we're learning from like your incident, you know, as an example, those on the other side are doing it. So why aren't we? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

I I'm I'm with you. And I mean, and in this point in time, it, you know, I get it. Like 15, 20 years ago, you didn't have some of the equipment that you do now where you can dry fire. And and that's the part that I'm always like, I'm sorry, dry fire costs you exactly nothing. So dry fire your weapon, get nowhere front out is get it. So it's and it it's hard to say, hey, listen, man, if you're if you're on this job and you're upset because, well, we only shoot once a year, my answer is yeah, but it's your life. It's your life, own it. The bad guy doesn't care about the budgets, the bad guy doesn't care about training, the bad guy just wants to kill you. And and if you really do want to go home at the end of your shift, if you really do want to, and I hate the word survive because that's you want to win. You don't survive, you win. And and you should think of that every day. I'm winning every single day I get to go home. And and that again, that sometimes we get too focused on blaming them when it's a an eye issue. Like when I started with you know, one of the guys I started with was uh into uh martial arts, and we would just we would just roll right after shift. So I I didn't need somebody to necessarily complete you know the defensive tactics training because I'm rolling already. And and I know, okay, well, he was better than me. So it's always better to, you know what I mean? Like you got to get into it, and it doesn't, it does not cost you anything if you dry fire and it doesn't really cost you that much time. Jesus, how much of what you look at in officer-involved shootings, it's that first three seconds that's everything. So you I'm I'm sorry, you can't spend three minutes just doing, you know, doing you know, but bringing this the gun up and putting it on and changing mags. Like, come on, it's I I don't understand that concept, that it's a them issue. It's not. It's a it's you have to own what you do. And and I I'm hoping that it's coming back around because you have, I mean, let's face it, the bad guys are probably better trained now than they ever have been. You know, whether it's you know video games or just going and doing more stuff. Like I said, the guy from Aurora, I I know Jad, who was the IC then, he was like the same thing. Guys have like three, four hundred rounds a week. And I get, I'm most expensive, man. I get that. It it it is, but okay, so just how about break it down like this? It's a Starbucks coffee every day that you go to work, add that up, so just dump two boxes, two boxes a month more than what your department does, you're still gonna be better trained than the next guy. Yeah. And and you have to, you know, right.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Well, and I you know, I think that goes back to the old adage that, you know, under stress, we don't rise to the occasion, we fall to what we know, and we fall back to what we can do reliably. And so I think just you know, the more that we can strengthen stress rep after rep after rep and getting that opportunity to, you know, just hone that craft is so important.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

There was a study done a while back with this Dr. Art Wall, who did uh uh 101 officers involved in deadly force encounters, and 74% of the officers went went went right to automatic pilot. So my and I always say that, well, who the fuck's flying your plane? Because if if you're not training your autopilot to work under stress, then you're what what are you doing? You're gonna fumble, you're gonna pause, and and you can't. So yeah, but it's funny, like you I watch guys, even now, I'm retired, obviously. But I, you know, if you drive by and it's a traffic stop, what do you do? You're watching what they're doing, like where they position themselves, what they're doing. And I remember talking to my guys, and I'm like, if you're the backup officer, you should be standing there, what-ifing everything. If he reaches to his waistband, I'm gonna do this. If he moves his arm up, I'm going to do this. And the one thing I've learned, uh, especially lately, is that I'm getting into this whole neuroscience thing and plasticity. And here's the one thing that is highly overlooked. If you run it through your head, it's the same as doing it. Your brain doesn't really differentiate between reality and psychology, and as much as thinking it over and over, it doesn't cost you a dime to go through it. Where I'm thinking in my head, if he reaches here, I'm gonna step to my right and I'm gonna draw. And I in my head, I'm just doing it and I'm doing it. And if it doesn't happen, great. But I'm already mentally going through the reps. Like, if you listen to Michael Jordan, he's like, well, I I picture every shot. That's why he was so good. And and there's no reason why you can't do the same. So whether it's dry firing or whether it's just getting that moving your body in that same motion doesn't really cost you anything. And I'm I'm sorry to say, if you can't invest that time in yourself, then you must you must not value your life that much, because again, man, that guy doesn't care. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Stay tuned for more with Lieutenant Brian Murphy.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

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SPEAKER_01 30:19

August 5th, a Sunday morning. It was your day off. You're there switching a shift with the Sarge, and you come to find out that morning that the AR release in your your squad doesn't work. It's it's broken. And you know, not until after you learn how to how you could have taken that out an opposite, you know, another direction. And so just the opportunity to sit in your car. And how do I get this out? How do I get this, you know, depending on where it's located, how do I get the rifle out? How do I get the shotgun out? How do I get out of the car? How do I unend where I'm at at this certain situation? How do I draw my pistol? Or how do I do from sitting in this car? I mean, just all those mental reps of walking through and walking through, you know, spending, you know, night after night after night on night shift and in the small town that I worked in, you know, you had nothing but time to think and and to look because it was pretty quiet at night. And so having those opportunities to drive around and stop at an intersection and say, what do I do here? Where do I go there? What do I do here? What do I go there? Um, you know, I learned that from a one of my first c my first coaches, you know, very early on. And it was as simple as, where are you at right now? And uh day two of FTEP, we're driving on a on a city street, he stops the car, says, get out. And I said, Okay, why? And he says, Where are you? And I had no clue, right? And that was the that first lesson right then is like, man, I gotta watch everything around me, everything that I get that's going on, I gotta pay attention because I live and work in a fishbowl. And if I'm not paying attention to what's going on outside that fishbowl, people are watching what I'm doing. And so, you know, we talk about that mental preparation, preparing for what this looks like, what does that look like? And like you said, you know, dry fire doesn't cost a dime. Working through scenarios doesn't cost a dime. You know, getting out on shift and walking a building and looking at where would I go if this happened? Where would I go if that happened?

SPEAKER_04 32:13

You know, absolutely there's all to be said that way. You know what I mean? And no way you know that the other part too, Greg, is there's no harm in going in a building that you think is more of a at a at a high risk than another building. Yeah. Go familiarize yourself. What the hell wrong is that? You know what I mean? Like just go go to whatever church, go to whatever it doesn't matter what it is, because there's domestics that happen. I mean, Jesus, you saw that thing in Shreveport. Uh, that was a domestic incident all of a sudden. But that, you know, but you those are the things you can run through your head and go, you know what? Like when I was out in bed, when I was on SWAT, we would go and anytime we went to a building, we would uh video it or photo it just in case you wound up having a barricade, then we would have all that information and just compiled so you know. But remember something that the bad guys are doing this. And here's the last piece of that puzzle. Like my guy, there was no exit plan. And and that as law enforcement, you you gotta understand that, man. You are the exit plan. They're not leaving until you finish them. And and you've honored this is uh probably the the harshest statement I could ever make is if you can can't honestly say if there was someone threatening someone's life or your own life that you wouldn't pull the trigger, I respect you 100%, but you need to go in and say, I need to go to a different position that doesn't put me in there. Uh there's admin stuff, there's you know, investigative stuff, but you can't do this job because people's lives are at stake. And and I can remember we had a guy a long time ago, a super smart guy, went to Wake Forest, and he came, went through the academy, did grade in the academy. He came to our training, but we put in the you know the extra couple of weeks in, third day of training, he put the gun down and said, I can't do this. Yeah, I don't think I could end somebody's life. And you know, you look at it and you go, Well, you wasted the money, you did no, no, no. I'm like, thank you for doing that, because who knows? That again, you get out on your own and now it's now it's go time and you can't. So that that's all the you gotta run that in your head too, and ask yourself when you look in the mirror, could I be that person that has to pull the trigger?

SPEAKER_01 34:45

No, yeah, you know, in your situation, this this whole this whole incident from when this guy shows up in the parking lot, gets out of his car, engages the first two, what you believe to be one, but ends up being a set of brothers in the parking lot, enters into the this the temple, uh, encounters a few people, fires it, makes some shots, works his way through the temple, I think ultimately killing five or six as he works through. And by the time that he does that and to the time he comes back outside, it's like a minute and a half or two minutes.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Like this this the first 911 till me getting there was a minute 59. So it was ridiculously fast.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yeah. And so I think as we talk through the training points, I think one of the big things that what we need to understand as as the responders is how quickly these things evolve and change. The importance of us getting there as quickly as we can and taking action as quickly as we can. And I, you know, I I think you know, you talk about you you pull in your squad. Um, again, in your presentations, you you talk about walking, he's walking into the kitchen um looking after uh three different women that were trying to turn off stoves. Um it just happens as as he walks in, he fires three rounds, thankfully misses those rounds, but then looks up and sees your squad and it decides, well, I'm guessing I'm done in the here, let's go outside and play. Um, and works his way back outside whereas where you encounter him. You know, I I think again, as we talk through theirs, I mean, what's your perspective on how do we can you know condition our officers that from the time that you turn into that parking lot, it's go time and it's time to go. I think you know, sometimes we get complacent in, oh, this is another call for this or another call for that or whatever. And you know, how how do we convince our officers to just they gotta stay on the edge?

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Honestly, I think all you have to do is show officers who died who didn't do it.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

And I know that sounds bad, but you know, and then we talked about this before. Complacency click kills, like, and and I remember my my first homicide that came in as a possible fight. So, like in my head, I'm like, oh, two people are fighting, and then when I got there, one man was shot three times in the chest. And like, holy shit. And that was my giant wake-up call. I was only on for like three months at that point. And then I'm like, nothing is what it seems. And and I guess part of it too is going back to the muscle memory, is when these calls come in, you have to think to yourself, well, it's gonna be the worst case scenario here. And it's easy, like, think of it like a perimeter, right? We always talk about that. It's easier to move a perimeter in than out. It's the same way, it's easier to de-escalate in your brain that it's not a thing to, okay, it's then you get there and it's it's so out of hand. And it's again, it's that mental as you're going, what am I gonna do? But I'm listening to the call, all right. It's a fight, okay. Now it's shots. Now it's definitely shots. And nowhere in that entire six minutes from beginning to end is the two words active shooter ever used. Right. So, yeah, you're again, I uh the the one we went to, it was like five years prior, was the same way. And there was a guy upstairs shooting in a hotel, killed his girlfriend. My guy was 30 seconds away. That was it. 30 seconds away, and when he got there, uh there was another the fire alarm was going off, and there was an officer, 2 a.m. He's from a totally different jurisdiction there for in our city for training, opens the door, and he's like, What do you got? He says, I got a guy upstairs shooting. He says, I'm a cop. My guy handed him a sidearm. So he's in his underwear, and now it's game time. So can you ever totally go away from it? Kinda, but I think if you're in this business for it for the right reasons, there's always part of you that has to be understanding. Things go sideways with no rhyme or reason. And that the only thing you can do is prep yourself mentally and physically and then spiritually as well. Like, you know, you have to come to terms with certain things. And I think uh the best thing you can do is ask for more training. And then it doesn't cost you anything. We used to do on-duty training all the time. And hey, if there's some, you know, if you're a supervisor, and I know you're a chief, but if if you're a supervisor, if you're the first line supervisor, you see your people, and you better be out there visually seeing your people in action and gauging them objectively and going, okay, Greg's an absolute monster shot. Hall is a fucking phenomenal talker. Somebody that and and I I suck at both. I would hope both of you would come to me and say, hey, I noticed you need a little bit of assistance here. And and that's that's what we should be doing, is if if we always talk about the brotherhood, but you have to make it a brotherhood. Like I'm watching Alfie. I'm not looking to hurt you, embarrass you, but I want everybody's everybody's bar to be as high as it could be for them. You you and I will never be on the same wavelength. My bar for shooting and your bar for shooting are not going to be the same. And and we know that yours is gonna be way higher, but it doesn't mean I can't get to my peak. And and that's that that's the other part of the puzzle, is you have to know where your boundaries are and and you know, know how good you are at certain things. And as for help.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah, I think that's an important point. You know, you bring up the brotherhood, the sisterhood of law enforcement, and what this is all about for us. You know, um, you know, I've like I said, I've been in this job for 29 years. There's a there's not very many people who will walk up and say, dude, like this is not your forte, this is not where you are. But, you know, my brother, who uh I've been with now for 50 years, um, has no problem pointing out my flaws. And uh, you know, he's one of my best friends and the guy that I love that I love to death. And but I think that's what it is. Like he's not afraid to say, Nadu, that's not you. Like, you can't tie that fishing hook right, you know. But I think we get stuck in our ways when we comes, you know, to our brotherhood in the office of not, you know, not wanting to upset our our shift mate, not wanting to cause a rift, but also you know, at the same time, not taking care of our brother or our sister or saying, hey, you need to tune this up, or you could help do let me help you with this, let me help you with that. You cannot write police reports or like you drive terribly. Like let, you know, but I you know, again, I think it's important, and and I I would I would put that challenge out to the instructors that are listening to this podcast is that we all know those people, and we don't want to make waves, and we don't want to upset and hurt feelings. But when we got when it comes right down to the end of the day, it's the protection of those that we serve, and it's for protection of those on our right and our left when we enter into these crazy situations. And so, you know, we'll all talk about somebody who's deficient at the man. Did you see that person shoot at 25 yards? I don't know about that, but what are you doing to then turn around and say, hey, let me help you learn how to shoot at 25 yards, or hey, let's go back and shoot that again. Let's get the opportunity to shoot that six more times. So you can put all six rounds on the paper, not just into the dirt burn. So, you know, I think I think sometimes we have to check our own egos and we gotta we gotta be thick skinned and and take that constructive criticism and and run it forward.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

So which is hard because you're in a type A game. Right. Everybody's a type A personality to a certain degree, and there's that, you know, and your opinions of yourself are already formulated. Uh, and you you almost take offense if somebody is, even though they're trying to help you, uh, you don't want to say to yourself, man, I'm I'm better than he thinks I am. And the answer is, man, there's always somebody better than you. Always. And and accept that. Like, man, I that so then uh actually it was at the ILFy that I just did, right? So, you know, I always talk about that 42 yards running away, flip your hand behind your back, hit the target, that's moving. Nobody hit that shot, and this one guy goes, I could. And I said, Oh the fuck you could, right? So so on the break, he came up and he explained he was an uh an air marshal. And and their way of shooting, there was no paper. This was you were on target or planes go down, kind of thing. Right. And and I'm like, In my head, I'm like, I would love for you to show me. Because that's all beyond CQB. That's all tightness and and you know, I and but in my head, I I had no qualms saying, Oh yeah, you're a way better shot than me. Let's you know, show me something. Uh but and you have to accept that fact. Like there's always man, it's there there's something every day that that you can learn. And I think we get when when we don't open ourselves up to accepting that, you you're just hurting yourself more. Because even after 29 years, there's somebody who could show you, hey, did you ever do it this way? And you're like, never saw it, and go, yep, that's I I agree with you, that's a better way. You know, by and and again, like training, training's great, and training that doesn't change anything other than your repetitions make you better at what you're supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Well, and and you know what? Some days you're lucky, some days you're good, right? And you know, you you talk about them, about that guy coming out of the front, looking over his shoulder, firing that one round, right? And it catches you in the chin, right? I mean, and a once in a million shot, but it's that one round that found that mark that day, and you are all of a sudden forced to get back in the fight. And you talk, you know, you talk about dipping down, checking yourself, and then your immediate thought was it's go time, right? And you know, again, I think that comes from that mental preparation, that just that readiness of nah, not today. And you know, I think that's a true testament to to who you are and and what you bring and and uh you know the the amazing story that comes with it. So so I appreciate that. Well, you know, it's it's it is too, you know, listening to you know, it's a it's an interesting perspective when you listen to some of the stuff you talk about before. You you talk about some of the members that were in the church and some of the or inside the temple and some of the lengths that they went to to protect their flock. And they were not afraid in that moment, and their job was protection. And you talk about Mr. Kaleika, um, who's in a back room protecting a family that's hidden in a bathroom, and he fought to the death to protect those people. And you know, again, it's what what a warrior or a savage or what that person might be look like, we don't know until we're in that piece. And the you know, the best way that we can do to prepare ourselves is just that mentally, physically, emotionally prepare yourself of what that looks like. When you're walking downtown, holding your wife's hand, walking for dinner, and something pops off in front of you. What are you going to do? And I I know for a lot of people that's you know, that seems extreme, but again, you know, I I heard uh I heard I heard a guy say one time, be professional, be polite, but have a plan to kill every man you meet. And you know, there's that there's just that piece that you just gotta know, you know, what does that look like and how do we prepare for that?

SPEAKER_04 47:13

So so big in that vein, and I think this is important, you have to know what your whatever you want to call them, your warrior, your beast, your your top tier. This is everything I got. You have to know what that is. And if you've never unleashed the beast, for lack of a better term, you should. Because it then you realize, you know what, I have a lot more inside of me than I think I do. And and it's I think we bind ourselves in our mind, you know, like Sun Tzu, the battle's won before you ever get to war. And it's the same. Don't don't think you can't. That's probably the the worst two words to ever start anything is. I can't. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna give it my best, but it I can't, shouldn't fall into it. But you should recognize within yourself, you know what? I got a lot of potential, and I I know that, and I'm gonna work on that. Because the first time you see it for real, you're like, oh crap. Because you didn't think, you just did. Yeah, your mind is what holds you back. Just, you know, Mr. Miyagi, just do.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

You know. Yeah. So, Brian, hey, as we start to wrap up here, just a you know, one final question I'll ask you. So, you know, we we have instructors from all over listening to this podcast. So, as a as a young officer, you you talk to a lot of young officers, a lot of young firearms instructors. As they listen to this right now, what what is one thing that you would want them to walk away from this conversation? Is and not necessarily something tactical, but more so as like, what do you take away from this as a human being, as a survivor of an incident like this, somebody who had to face incredible adversity? And, you know, for a doctor to tell you you're never gonna eat, you're never gonna talk again. And here we are in April of 2026, 14 years after, having a conversation, you know. And you know, so what is one thing that you would you would tell a young officer or a young firearms instructor is as they embark upon a career?

SPEAKER_03 49:19

It's a team. It's a team, and bear with me, everything's a team.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Your family is your team, your your colleagues are your team, and you owe it to everybody. Uh you owe it to yourself, you owe it to them to be the best the best version of yourself that you can be. And and uh, and you know this, I didn't realize how much my family had been through until afterwards, and then you know, like I didn't prep them properly. I didn't say, hey, this could happen. And I I learned after the fact that they were always there. Uh your family is always there, and don't don't lose sight of that. But you owe it to everybody around you, and you owe it to yourself to be that best version. And you talk about, you know, and I show it at the end with Churchill, who says, you know, there's always there's gonna come a time where you're figuratively or literally tapped on the shoulder and asked to do something that's specific to you and your abilities, and what a shame it would be if you weren't prepared. So be prepared for yourself, be prepared for your family, and be prepared for for the citizens who need you, maybe when it's the worst time of their life.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Well, Brian, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with us today. Again, just an awesome conversation. Um, you know, I know I know you don't like to hear it, but you are an amazing human. Uh, you were, you know, and uh I appreciate everything that you've done for this career, everything you've done sharing your experience and you know, imparting, you know, information and knowledge among among those that are coming behind you. Um you you're a true leader, and uh, you know, I I appreciate everything you've you've done for ILFE so far, and and uh we continue to to be excited to work with you in the future. And again, I just say thanks for coming on and spending time with us today.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

I appreciate it. Thank you for your service and and not only with your department and for law enforcement, but for ILFi. I appreciate everything you do.