What's Got the World Talking?

Celebrity vs Influencer: What Works for Brands in Today’s Fame Economy?

• WPR • Season 1 • Episode 4

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How do we define ‘celebrity’ in 2026? We’re discussing whether traditional celebs can still drive real impact, when influencer relevance trumps reach, and which sectors should (or absolutely shouldn’t) bother with a famous face. From red flags in celebrity partnerships to what to do if your chosen star generates the wrong sort of headlines, we’ll explore the pitfalls as well as the positives. 

In this episode of What’s Got the World Talking? Jane is joined by associate creative director Dan Gabriel and senior news director Amy Brookbanks as they share their favourite brand/celeb partnerships (spoiler alert: BIG fans of M&S!), discuss how much control brands really have, and debate what AI influencers might mean for the future.

If you’re wondering how to choose the right talent, whether it could shift perception of your brand, and how to avoid expensive mistakes, this conversation is your guide to navigating the tricky waters of brand/celeb partnerships. 

If you're fascinated by the topics that get the marketing world talking, make sure you don't miss an episode of What's Got the World Talking?

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SPEAKER_03

MS have done a great job.

SPEAKER_01

Some head-to-toe MS today.

SPEAKER_03

MS if you're uh interested.

SPEAKER_01

And then how are contracts and prices negotiated, disputed, agreed upon?

SPEAKER_03

Prices, I think there's a a little bit of that sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

The right posts from the right influencer can have lodges sold out for months in advance.

SPEAKER_03

There's risk associated with working with anyone, whether it's an influencer, whether it's a celeb.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you can only look at what they have said.

SPEAKER_03

Celebrity scandals sells newspapers.

SPEAKER_01

Always have.

SPEAKER_03

It always has. And I think it's something that has filtered down into modern technology. It's about driving traffic to the site, it's about driving um engagement on social.

SPEAKER_02

I think the Beckhams will never go out of fashion no matter what they do. Not with Brooklyn currently. No, he's feeding the machines.

SPEAKER_03

And I think actually that can be a more powerful tool to unlock for a brand than just going for a mass market approach.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. I think what we're seeing now is far more creativity. It's not just enough to say, I have a brand, I'm going to pay this person to say it, it's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

People looking to how can we creatively amplify that to make it really resonate with audiences? Welcome to What's Got the World Talking, the podcast that delves into what's on the minds of the marketing, PR, and social media world. Today we're talking about the blurred lines around the role that celebrities and influencers play in brand marketing strategies. In a world where fame is constantly being redefined, who is shaping public opinion? Is it traditional celebrities with real cultural capital? Reality stars riding their way over 50 minutes of fame? Or niche influencers building passionately loyal audiences from their bedroom? I'm joined by Associate Creative Director Dan Gabriel and senior news director Amy Brookbanks to unpack how celebrities defined now, how influence is generated when audience attention is more fragmented than ever, and what senior marketers need to know before hitching their brand and its reputation to the celebrity wagon. Hi, Amy Dan. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_02

Do you want to start by introducing yourselves? Yes, I'm Amy Brookbanks, the Senior News Director at WPR.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm Dan, Associate Creative Director at WPR.

SPEAKER_01

So today we're here to talk about all things celebrity and their role in uh marketing. So let's start with the basics. How do we even define celebrity now as the lines blur between celebrities, influencer, influencer, celebrities?

SPEAKER_03

Shall I take this one? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Do you go first?

SPEAKER_03

I don't think the I don't think the definition of celebrity has necessarily changed. I think the way that we categorize celebrities has certainly evolved. And this isn't something that's just happened over recent years. I think it's taken a long time. I think if we think back to what we would see as more traditional celebrities 20, you know, 15, 20 years ago, it was film stars, it was people in TV, it was sports personalities. And I think we uh in more recent years saw the rise of what we would call manufactured celebrities. So I think we saw a big influx of reality TV stars, you know, driven by the likes of X Factor and Love Island and all of those shows that kind of catapulted people into the limelight. And I think more recently we've shifted to more of those sort of micro celebrity audiences, some more kind of niche communities, creator economy, um, looking at um more sort of tailored audiences, I suppose, rather than mass reach, kind of broadcast reach um celebrities that we would have traditionally seen over recent years.

SPEAKER_01

So when does an influencer become a celebrity? Or when does a celebrity become an influencer?

SPEAKER_02

I think Molly May's quite a good example of that. So she was a big sort of fashion and beauty influencer first, then she went on Love Island, then became a reality star, and now she's one of the UK's biggest, most successful celebrities. So I would say she was a good example, but the lines are quite blurry these days. You've got uh influencers who are now sort of celebrities, yeah, and then you've got you know, your classic sort of celebrities trying to be influencers in order to get these big brand deals, and in and it's successful for them, you know, if they've got a big following on Instagram, then they're able to get these big name brand deals, and that's what people are sort of looking for these days.

SPEAKER_01

I suppose the line between celebrity and influence maybe cross when it comes just down to number of followers you have on on social media.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I think I I mean I also don't think it's as clean cut as that. I think it's really easy to sort of carve up uh your community size and and try and establish sort of macro, mid-technique, exactly. You've got nano, you've got micro, you've got macro, you've got mega, which I suppose is that sort of one million plus.

SPEAKER_01

But I think because the terminology changes by the week, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. And it'll be different wherever you look, it'll be different depending on which which article you're reading, essentially. So I don't think it's as clean cut as follower numbers. I think there are sort of other elements that establish whether that person has celebrity status because celebrity status could be you know defined within a really niche community, it could be something that's really specific to a certain audience. Um so I don't think it's necessarily as clean cut as how many followers do you have on social media these days.

SPEAKER_01

So, from a brand's perspective, what are the key differences between an influencer and a celebrity?

SPEAKER_03

I think it's a really it's a really interesting question because I think from a from a brand perspective, I think previously it would have just been about mass market reach. It's getting as many eyeballs on your brand or your product as possible. And I think the dial has has shifted slightly in terms of the objectives for a lot of brands. And sometimes it's not just about reaching as many people as possible, it's about making sure that you're reaching people with relevancy and having a smaller community or more of a niche audience might be uh the case of working with a different type of personality to ensure that you're reaching an audience where they are most active.

SPEAKER_02

From a journalist perspective, Amy? I think celebrities are those people that are currently on TV, they're on big shows, they're sort of legendary, iconic um mainstream media, mass market celebrities. So, you know, your Hollywood stars, your TV presenters, your sort of ITV daytime crew, or if they've got a Netflix show. And then I think your influencers are those people that um predominantly make their money off Instagram and TikTok. Um, and you will see that they're being written about much more in the mainstream media now. And then, of course, you've got things like Netflix doing documentaries about them. You've got Louis Thoreau's Manosphere on at the moment, which is all about influencers. Um so the lines are blurry, but I think there there is still that categorisation of these people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the lines are definitely blurry. You can see that that big crossover. What do marketers need to think about in terms of how fame is generated now versus 10, 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_03

I think it's it's really important to think really specifically about your audience and and where they're most active. As I say, I think for a lot of brands it's easy to go into that default of we need to reach as many people as possible. But I think the relevancy of that reach is becoming more important than ever before. And I think you know, certainly over the last five to ten years, we've seen a rise in the creator economy, we've seen more brands working with niche or specialist creators to reach really specific communities online, and I think actually that can be a more powerful tool to unlock for a brand than just going for a mass market approach. So I think it's it's about really thinking uh of your audience first and and where they are to make sure that you're aligning your partnership with the the key demographic that you're looking to reach.

SPEAKER_01

Do you think there's even more homework that has to be done now before you appoint your chosen celebrity and andor influencer?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I think so. I think it's really important to do your research and to really understand. Um, I think particularly if you are working with celebrities, it's about making sure that they have no skeletons in their closets, doing uh you know, really deep dive into their past and just making sure. And there's a there's risk associated with working with anyone, whether it's an influencer, whether it's a celeb.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you can only look at what they have said. You can't predict what they're going to say in future, can you? It's there's always an element of risk attached to it.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I think it's about making sure that you have the right protections in place as a brand so you are able to you know end a partnership if anything came out or anything came to light that would be deemed as potentially damaging for the brands. It's making sure that you have those reassurances in place, but just doing your due diligence and making sure that you're kind of researching that partner uh in as much depth as you possibly can, um, as well as using it as an opportunity to sort of news test and you know again, sort of making sure that you are keeping the key objectives of that partnership in mind. If it is about driving media coverage, we'd always recommend speaking to someone who's worked in the media, speaking to a journalist and and sense checking. Like, do they have that relevance? Do they have that appeal to the audiences that you're looking to reach? Do they also give you the traction that you need from an earned media perspective?

SPEAKER_01

And again, from a journalist perspective, Amy, have you ever, when you were on the dark side or the light side, whatever you want to call it, did you ever kind of see a celebrity slash brand partnership that you thought was particularly spot on, or one that you just thought that's not working for me, I don't get it?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I think Michelle Keegan and Very is a good example of that. You know, everybody always wants to know what she's wearing, where she's getting it from, and it also needs to be affordable. Um, so Very and Michelle Keegan, I think was a really great partnership, which has been going for years and years.

SPEAKER_01

I think it going for years and years helps the consumer buy into it as well. It's not just a sort of flash in the pan moment. You believe there's a great brand partnership there.

SPEAKER_02

I thought, yeah, I think Mrs. Hinch and Home Bargains is another good example. Obviously, everybody wants what she's got in her house, and and again, it has to be really affordable for her fan base. Um, but also, you know, it's it's good quality, it looks nice. Um, so yeah, I thought that was a really great idea. I agree. And Dan, you've got anything you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_03

I think a recent example of a celebrity brand partnership I think is was really successful. I think um MS have done a great job sort of harnessing influencers and celebrities. Ah, that is the best example. And it's such a good example because I think they've really done a great job in shifting um audience perception of the brand, particularly within the clothing range. And I might just be saying this because I'm at the the sharp end of 30, but for for me, I think they have really diversified their their audience. And I think the um the Spencer Matthews and um what's his name?

SPEAKER_02

Mark Mark Wright, was it?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the Marks and Spencers. Obviously, there was the the humorous element of that partnership, but it really helped to um change the perception of MS being a slightly older, kind of a bit of a stuffy brand, I think, in some ways. And they've worked with a lot of younger creators and they've worked with the likes of Jordan North and you know the the Capital One crew more recently. Um and it feels like it's uh it's a fresh, it's a cool brand, it's one that you know certainly the millennials are going well. You know, I'm my eyes are open to MS again. I mean, I think pretty much everything I'm wearing is some head to toe MS today.

SPEAKER_01

This has not been uh sponsored by MS, but we might be coming to them in the future because appear to have major brand fans here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, their home stuff and their food is amazing. Um, and I really like how with the influences um and the food, they're just using them on Instagram to be like, oh, night into night with my snacks, and it's brilliant. Yeah, that's that's the best example.

SPEAKER_03

I think a lot of brands are harnessing celebrity partnerships in a way that really helps to elevate brand messaging and tone of voice and personality. Like I think of some of the more recent ones that have been over the last few weeks. There's the the Gemma Collins partnership with Canva, which you know they appointed her as their creative director. Yeah, um, it was it was really funny, you know. It was the GC being as only she can be, and I think bringing that sort of humour and relatability to the brand is something I think is really important. I think more recently, um, MS and the Gillian Anderson partnership was was really great. And she was speaking about the um the manosphere, which is a really shocking documentary I watched over the weekend, but it made me really think about how algorithms can really feed on negativity. And I think what MS has done really successfully with Gillian Anderson is they've flipped that narrative on its head and they're going after something that's really positive. That love that message I think was a really great one. You know, the doom and gloom that's out there at the moment, and they're really leaning into positivity and sort of people bigging each other up and providing that support for others. So I think the Gillian Anderson partnership is another great piece of work from MS in terms of driving that message to I agree.

SPEAKER_01

I think what we're seeing now is far more creativity. It's not just enough to say, I have a brand, I'm going to pay this person to say it's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

People looking to how can we creatively amplify that to make it really resonate with audiences? Which is why we spent so much of today talking about MS.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Fair play to me.

SPEAKER_03

From fans.

SPEAKER_01

So I have a sort of separate question away from MS. Do you think celebrities can still shape public opinion? Or is that the role of influencers now? I think we see a lot of celebrities try to shape public opinion and it and it it backfire. So, what's your views on that area?

SPEAKER_03

I think celebrities can shape public opinion when it's done in a really authentic. I mean, we talk a lot about it, again, it's that word that's banded around a lot in marketing, but I think authenticity is more important than ever before when it comes to shaping public opinion, when it changes when it comes to changing uh perception of a brand in the eyes of the consumer. I think one of the things that we really see from brand marketing is that longevity of partnership, and when it feels really authentic and relatable and it's consistent and happens over time, that's when you can start to turn the dial in terms of driving public opinion. Um, so I think consumers have become a lot more sceptical of partnerships. I think you can spot it from a mile away if it doesn't feel authentic, and I think um certainly where we have um brand collaborations that feel like they're really grounded in something that's real um is is where it can actually really start to tackle um the public perception of a brand.

SPEAKER_02

I think this is where the influences have sort of crept in, really, because consumers and readers and audiences um want that authenticity, and so they started to think that celebrities weren't telling the truth, they were just cashing in. Um, and this is where influencers have sort of stolen the spotlight a little bit because they are authentic, they're real people. Um you know, they weren't starting out with brand deals, uh they were talking about things that were genuinely brilliant on their social media pages, and this is this is why I think they've become so popular now. And people are sort of distrusting celebrities a little bit, aren't they? Unless it is a genuine, authentic uh partnership, like you say.

SPEAKER_03

I I I totally agree. I think, like so many things, I think that consumer behaviour was accelerated by COVID because I think we we got to the point as consumers where we didn't want to see this perfect polished picture of this image of celebrity being.

SPEAKER_01

There were a number of celebrities, weren't there, that just did see a backlash and moaning about their life from inside their palatial abodes.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. And if it felt really inaccessible for the everyday consumer. So I think we saw this real shift in behaviour. People were looking for real sort of peer-led connection. They wanted to see people who were real and unpolished and relatable, and I think that really helped to fuel the rise in the creator economy because people were looking for something that felt a little bit more authentic and a little bit less polished. And I think it started to turn the dial away from the typical celebrity that felt a little bit more inaccessible and out of reach for the everyday person.

SPEAKER_01

So let's think about when and why working with a celebrity might work for a brand. Are there specific industries that you think celebrity or influencer partnerships work really well for? And are there any industries where you'd say, I can't see a celebrity influencer partnership?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

There are definitely industries where celebrity endorsement, celebrity partnership feels more authentic. I think the the ones that instantly sprang to mind are fashion, uh the beauty industry as well, highly influenced by online communities, by kind of seeing products being used by like-minded people. Um, so I think the sort of the fashion and the beauty industry has has always used celebrity to sell products and to kind of endorse uh a brand or a you know a certain way of life. I think there are certain sectors where you have to be careful with the way um spending is portrayed. So, like the charity sector, for example, a lot of you know charitable organisations will work with celebrities in terms of partnerships and ambassadorships. I think if you're ever in a situation where you're paying a celebrity, you've got to be really careful the way that that's represented to a consumer because it's that sort of charitable spending that's going on that partnership. So I think it can work for a really broad range of industries, but I think if there's anything that might be contentious or divisive for a consumer, it's probably best to steer away and just making sure that you know it's perceived in a way that would be seen as being a responsible spending for um that brand or organisation.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I agree with all of that. So you're in a you're in a sector where working with a celebrity makes sense. Um where do you start with choosing the right face of your campaign, your brand?

SPEAKER_03

It's a really interesting question. I I think um I made this point earlier, but I think it's really important to start audience first. I think having that real grasp and understanding of your audience, where they are operating, what channels are they on. There's no point if you're trying to reach a Gen Z audience in in working with a mass market, mass reach celebrities that's going to get you loads of tabloid coverage, for example, because ultimately that isn't going to resonate with your audience. It's really important that you're considering the channels that they're operating on, you know, where are they most prominent and the type of personalities that they are most likely to resonate with. I think if you have a really uh a niche audience or a niche community, it's definitely worth exploring more of that sort of creative marketing approach. Whatever industry you're in, there is almost always a specialist area of the internet or uh on social that will kind of match the demands and will meet the community that you're looking to target. So I would certainly start by looking at depth into your audience, their behaviours, what channels they're operating across. And I think where you can actually start to get a feel for the sort of celebrity that might resonate with them as well. So whether that's through focus groups, whether it's through social media, social listening to try and understand the sort of celebrities that might resonate with them, that's kind of where I would begin.

SPEAKER_01

And Amy, until not all that long ago, you were a showbiz editor. So what celebrities are the media most interested in at the moment and why?

SPEAKER_02

So it's not your Hollywood movie stars. This is why the office.

SPEAKER_01

That isn't true at all.

SPEAKER_02

Probably. Yeah, it's uh it's still your classic sort of reality stars, they're still doing really well. Um, but you'll see now that there's more uh content around influencers because that's what audiences are interested in.

SPEAKER_01

Um there is more content because I remember when you first joined, you were saying, Oh, the media aren't so interested in influencers, but I've seen a shift in that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there's been a huge shift recently, and I think I'm told it all stemmed from this uh influencer called Brittany Miller, who uh was revealed to have faked her own cancer. Um so uh all the mainstream media started writing about this influencer, and uh it did so well that they started to sort of experiment and do more stories about influencers. Um I'm told it's all the sort of bad news that does well.

SPEAKER_01

So when you say done really well for them, I presume you mean from a click perspective. Yeah, a journalist would I presume decide which lepters they're most interested in, it'd be the ones that get the most clicks, comments, etc.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly, it's the clicks on the websites, and so that also influences what is written about in the print uh editions as well. So they're very much looking at what our readers are interested in, who's driving the most clicks, um, and also with the subscription sites there to seeing how many clicks they get on that as well. So they have all this data to hand, and that's what journalists are looking for with um, you know, uh marketing or a media partnership as well. Uh, they want to do um interviews with celebrities for brand campaigns that are going to drive traffic to the website. I think a lot of the time they're offered um celebrities with brand partnership deals that they're not interested in. Um it might it's a celebrity that doesn't drive traffic for them, or it's a celebrity who won't talk about the biggest news story in their life at the moment, and so that's not of interest to them. So I Think there's that sort of line, isn't there, that a brand might pick a celebrity for a partnership, but the media aren't interested in them. Um, so that would wouldn't be very successful, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think the other thing that we're we're seeing a lot of um in earned media is that rise of stories that start in social. Um, and I think we're seeing a lot more of influencers as experts, and you know, I was talking earlier about that rise in sort of niche communities. I think um journalists are now starting to see influencers as credible spokespeople within certain spaces. So um, you know, content that goes viral on TikTok now translates into editorials, so you get news coverage around stories where people have been talking about particular subject matter and it's gone viral. Um, and that kind of virality of content I think is translating into earned media really effectively, but also using creators as the voice of a certain topic or a certain area of expertise. Um, we're seeing a lot more of that, I think, over recent months.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you've still got your classic celebrities though. Um, I think the Beckhams will never go out of fashion no matter what they do. Not with Brooklyn currently. No, he's feeding the machines, so that'll keep going. You've got Katie Price, she's dominated headlines with her weight loss.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, celebrity scandals sells newspapers.

SPEAKER_01

Always have.

SPEAKER_03

It always has, and I think that that notion of taking a peek behind the curtain and understanding a bit more about what's going on in this person's life, I think it's something that has filtered down into modern technology. So now it's not just about selling hard copies of the paper, it's about driving traffic to the site, it's about driving um engagement on social. And there is a there is a darker side of that as well, because I think that sort of almost uncovering of uh of people's lives, um, you know, it it can it can bring a darker side of the algorithm where it is driving engagement around people like Katie Price, who's you know, clearly deeply, deeply troubled.

SPEAKER_01

But do you think celebs can ever really shape the perception of a brand, or is it just about getting eyeballs on a brand, making some noise around a brand at a key point?

SPEAKER_03

I think this goes back to without mentioning MS over and over again, obviously. I think MS did a brand.

SPEAKER_01

Should be sponsored by MS.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, MS if you're uh interested, uh you know, to find this. Um so yeah, I mean I think MS did a great job with the brand partnership, with the celebrity partnerships, with that kind of creator marketplace, um, because they delivered it consistently over a sustained period of time. Um it wasn't just one campaign that they they did overnight and it disappeared and they went back to their old ways. It was something that formed a really key part of their strategic approach and how they were going to position their brand in the eyes of the in the eyes of the consumer. So I think um having that consistency, the authenticity of the partnership, but doing it over a prolonged period of time is where you can really start to drive impact. And I think that's what MS has done really successfully in terms of shifting not just the perception of the brand but the the entire audience profile and the fact that we're all massive MS advocates now is is is testament to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I agree. So that's when it works really well. Do you think there's ever a risk that a celebrity is bought in as a sticking plaster for a weak idea to make up the failings and other areas of brand marketing?

SPEAKER_03

I think it can be seen as um a lazy tactic in in marketing. I think if you don't have a really good creative concept at the core of your campaign or your um your activation, a celebrity can just be seen as an easy route to generating eyeballs on the content. And I think if it doesn't have that resonance with the end user, that's when it can really backfire. So um I think it's really important to make sure that any campaign, certainly from a creative perspective, if we're suggesting a campaign and it would never hinge on the celebrity, the celebrity will support and amplify the message, but it wouldn't be the crux of the campaign, it wouldn't be the only thing that that makes it stand out because if you take that celebrity out of the equation, ultimately it needs to stand on its own two feet and have that sort of visibility with the audience. Um, so yeah, I think it can be a bit of a lazy tactic for getting cut through.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And we all know that celebrity partnerships don't always go according to plan, but we could list many examples which we're not getting to. Um obviously, if you get it wrong, it's a it's an expensive, high-profile disaster. What are the most common mistakes brands make when working with celebrities slash influencers, and how can you avoid making those?

SPEAKER_02

I think um from a journalist's perspective, it is that type of they they assume that everyone will be interested in their brand or their campaign because they've got a celebrity. But they might not necessarily have the intel that you know newspapers and magazines aren't interested in this person, they've got nothing to talk about in their real life. I think a lot of PRs and brands just assume, oh, they'll write about it and they'll give us a credit and they'll stick in the you know, the pictures and and things, but actually, if they don't have a strong exclusive line to talk about, if they don't if they're not open to talking about their real life, um they're not going to get the press for that brand.

SPEAKER_03

Certainly, from a a brand perspective, I think where they miss the mark the most is when it's not in line with current societal beliefs and and understanding. Um I think a really good example of this is I don't know if you remember, it's quite a few years ago now, but when um Pepsi did the ad with um Kendall Jenner, where they she was out at protest, and this was around the time of Black Lives Matter, and we had Kendall Jenner out with a kind of Pepsi, and then she gave it to one of the policemen at the at the protest, and he drank it, and all was well. And it massively backfired for obvious reasons because it was really out of touch with society and what was going on, and it actually trivialized something that was really important to communities, to people all around the world. Um, and Pepsi were really quick to act on it. They pulled the ad within 24 hours and they issued an apology. They understood that it missed the mark because it didn't really recognise what was going on in society, and it didn't kind of it was out of touch essentially. So I think it's really important to make sure that any messaging that you're putting out there to the market is really in line with with your audience, but really kind of understands some of the challenges of current society.

SPEAKER_01

And do you think Pepsi stood by their chosen celebrity sufficiently? Because I've seen a few examples where it has gone wrong and the brand has just walked away and left this poor celebrity slash influencer just in the eye of a storm on their own.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, I think in in fairness, I I don't actually think it was the celebrity's fault in that circumstance. I think it was it was a misguided campaign from the start from Pepsi. So they did there there was not much that they could do to really counteract that. I think what's really important with any um celebrity partnership for a for a brand is if the celebrity does something in the public domain that doesn't align with their values that could be seen to damage reputation. Um I think distancing from that celebrity is probably the right thing if it, you know, if it's done in the right way. And I think staying true to your values as a brand, um staying true to your customer and to your audience is is probably the most important thing, making sure that you have the protections in place if the celebrity does something untoward that could be perceived as damaging to your brand.

SPEAKER_01

The risks are two-way as well, because a celebrity can get involved with a brand and there could be some incident surrounding that as well. So there's a lot of due diligence to be done on both sides, I think.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, but I think I think staying true to your brand and staying true to your values is is the most important thing. And consumers will understand and and and they'll forgive if you are transparent. I think it when brands try and brush things under the carpet, that's when it becomes a little bit more contentious because people want to feel that they have that authenticity from the brand as well as any celebrity that would be partnering with them.

SPEAKER_01

And is there such a thing as a safe celebrity anymore? Is any celebrity free of the investigations and the digging that you might have done in your days at the San Amy?

SPEAKER_02

I would say a safe celebrity. There are some uh Giovanni Fletcher. Oh, yeah. Um, she, you know, there's no scandal, there's no skeletons in her closet.

SPEAKER_03

Not mine, not the mile. You never know. It could be the quiet ones you've got to look out for.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that will be the story, won't it, if she's got some scandal. Um, you know, she's a wholesome mum who's married to a lovely pop star. So yeah, I think she's a she's an example of a safe celebrity, but but really it is hard to find those people now because you never know what's going to happen in their in their lives.

SPEAKER_03

I think the fact of the matter is we, society at this current time, like we're in a cancel culture, and I think the mainstream media can make a celebrity overnight, but it can also break a celebrity overnight. So I think it's really important that brands do those safety checks. You you know, you do as much digging as as as is humanly possible to try and understand and evaluate the potential risk of that partnership. And like you say, there will be certain celebrities that seem to be lower risk. You know, if they're not outwardly controversial or they don't say anything that could be deemed as damaging to a brand, the chances of them doing something during a partnership are pretty low. However, it's always possible, so it's just about making sure that you have those adequate protections in place if anything was to happen.

SPEAKER_01

And what about celebrities who might be having their 15 minutes of fame? Because I think there obviously is a moment you step out of the jungle, the Love Island villa, whatever it might be. There's a real temptation for brands to say everyone's talking about them now is a moment to strike up that partnership. But that presumably is a moment of high risk as well, because you don't know all the skeletons in those closets.

SPEAKER_03

You don't, because those people are newer to the limelight quite often. I think, particularly if they come off the back of a reality TV show, and you know, you do see it. People come out and they they they get these kind of you know massive brand partnership deals, and then stuff does come out, something they said on Twitter 10 years ago. You know, it's um it it's really important to try and do as much digging as possible around. And I think you know, there there is a benefit, a short-term benefit of those partnerships. Sometimes I think if they're done in the right way, you can ride the wave of that 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01

And you've got to strike where the iron's hot. Yeah. Because another series of the the traitors will be upon us before you know it or low line, whatever it might be, that you haven't got long, have you, to capitalise on that mass interest in that person at that time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. And I I think it's also just about making sure that it's hyper-relevant to the brand and to the message that you're trying to communicate, not just working with them because they are in the limelight at that moment. Because I think consumers will see through that. So I think where it does have that relevance and credibility, or you can lean into the more sort of humorous elements of the stuff.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's where it works really well, where you're very direct about we're partnering then because everyone's talking about them, but do that. Yeah. And that goes back to what we're discussing earlier, having the creative hook underpinning the campaign.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I think Innocent did it, because it can also work with celebrities who perhaps haven't been in the limelight as much recently. And I think Innocent did a really good job of this.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I know what you're going to talk about. Duncan from Blue, that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_03

They worked with Duncan from from Blue, and it was many, many years after Blue had been, you know, at their peak of their stardom. And it was really tongue-in-cheek because they were just posting pictures from on social media being like, oh, you know, we've got Duncan from Blue on board, like best 50 quid we ever spent. Like it was they they was absolutely bright.

SPEAKER_01

We still talk about it years later.

SPEAKER_03

It was really funny. They kind of lent into the fact that he wasn't actually really in the limelight at that point in time, and it it it was very on brand for Innocent. It it really aligns their tone of voice, it drove a huge amount of online interaction and engagement around the partnership. So I think um that uh it goes back to that sort of playful element of working with celebrities and making something that is unexpected and a little bit more tongue-in-cheek to elevate Brand's tone of voice.

SPEAKER_01

So we've talked about celebrities and capturing them when they're having their 50 minutes of fame. Is there a a moment where a celebrity is past their peak and you need to question working with them?

SPEAKER_02

I think there's definitely those uh celebrities who have cashed in too much, they've taken on too many brands, and now um their fans and the public start to question whether um, you know, they're real, they're they're actually they believe in this product, or is it because they're getting paid loads of money to say it's it's good?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's hard as well for a for an influencer that starts out as an influencer becomes a celebrity, they can have kind of made their name on talking about saving money or great deals or whatever it might be. Then all of a sudden it's like, well, we know you're worth millions and millions, so I don't buy that from you anymore. What a celebrity can be used for can fluctuate and and and change quite a lot.

SPEAKER_03

I think there is an important point because the the mainstream media will be really quick to pick up on anything that comes across as hypocritical. So if somebody positions themselves as, you know, I'm salt of the earth, I'm down to earth, I'm here to help people, it's about kind of saving money and all of that sort of thing, and then you're seen jetting off to the Maldives. It it you know it can be picked up on very quickly. So I think it's important in terms of how you represent yourself as a brand as well. It's always the same, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Bad news sells, scandal sells, and an article that is knocking somebody is gonna get again more clicks. I'm not proud to say that's the world we live in, but it's the it's the truth of the world that we live in.

SPEAKER_03

It is, and it's a it's a really scary thing again, going back to that Louis Threw um documentary. You know, these people have you know, we talk a lot about the positives of creative marketing and the value that it can add for brands, but there is a there is a dark side of social media and algorithms that will feed negativity. Um, and I think it's it's something that we also need to be mindful of as marketers, particularly when the end user is young, impressionable children ultimately, who still haven't formed an opinion of the world. So I think it's something that can be seen as a, you know, it's a it's a force of good in many ways, but it can also be quite dangerous in the wrong hands.

SPEAKER_01

So, away from choosing the right celebrity, let's talk about the practicalities of working with a celebrity. How are contracts and prices set, fixed, negotiated, disputed, agreed upon?

SPEAKER_03

It's a good question. Uh prices, I think there's a a little bit of that sometimes. It's uh it it's it's really difficult. And you know, a lot of like creators uh they they recognise and and understand that for a lot of them this is their you know their main source of income, you know, they've they've monetized it really effectively, rightly so. It's uh you know, it's a career for many people. Um, and they will have rate cards and and guidelines on you know how much they'll be charging for a reel or a you know a carousel post or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01

But it'll be sure to be really flexible as well because if if your brand that influencer really wants to work for because it's a great association will elevate their profile, you're gonna get a better rate than if you're a brand they're relatively indifferent about.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I think authenticity is really key from both sides. So there has to be that alignment piece from the brand's perspective with the creator, but it it goes both ways. And I think if that creator really wants to, really believes in that brand or the products, that's when you get the best partnerships because it feels really authentic on the feed, it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. I think with higher profile celebrities, um, it's a lot harder to determine what sort of rates they're going to be charging because I think a lot of it will depend on how in demand they are at that point in time, you know, how big is their media profile, have they got a book coming out, or are they about to go into the jungle and do other celebrity? That will massively dictate the rates that they're able to charge. So it's a lot harder to quantify how much you should be paying for a partnership and also what value you're going to receive from that partnership from the brand's perspective. So I think with the the bigger profile celebrities, you get a feel for how much you might be paying, but it can be you know it can be wildly different depending on the celebrity and the activity that you're asking them to take part in.

SPEAKER_02

What's the most you've ever paid a celebrity for?

SPEAKER_03

Me personally, uh, we've gone to six figures for clients before for longer term, bigger strategic partnerships that involve multiple channels, multiple activations. I think on the smaller partnership scale, you know, that that there are more cost-effective routes in. Um, but it all depends on the brand and and the celebrity, really, how how big they are at that point in time. So, and I think we've we've probably seen a bit of a shift from marketers and in terms of willingness to invest in in those collaborations. We know that they can be really impactful from uh from sales from a revenue perspective. If you look at um Adidas obviously recently collabed with Bad Bunny, obviously I'm sure that wasn't the cheapest collaboration, but it was culturally relevant in that moment. It increased their overall revenue by 14% um with the um the Super Bowl and you know, obviously Bad Bunny's profile being elevated significantly within that time frame. So I think it can drive real commercial impact for you've seen that, haven't you, on some of our clients?

SPEAKER_01

The right posts from the right influencer can have lodges sold out for months in advance.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely, it can drive a huge amount of consumer action, it can it can drive website traffic, sales, um, video views, it can have a huge impact. And I think actually when you get to that sweet spot of alignment with the right partner, the right product, and the right channel, that's when you can really drive tangible impact. You can have like it works really well for FMCG brands or you know, like Fashion and Beauty. Like I said, you can have products just selling out in minutes because a certain creator has posted about them on the right channels, or they've sold, you know, through TikTok shop and it's gone absolutely viral. So if you get to that sweet spot, that's when you can drive real commercial impact for brands through those partnerships.

SPEAKER_01

Which I think leads really nicely onto one of my last questions. What are the KPIs that you would use and you'd advise a brand to use when working with a celebrity or influencer?

SPEAKER_03

I think it really depends on the brand and their objectives and what they're really looking to achieve. Um I think we think of celebrity partnerships a lot of the time sitting at the top of the funnel because it's usually about how can we use the credibility of this well-known person to drive visibility, awareness, eyeballs on your brand. But I think celebrities and creative partnerships can work at all elements of the funnel. Um, yes, it can be about reach, video views, driving traffic to the website, but it can also really impactfully drive conversions for brands, it can drive sales of products, services. So I think really defining what the partnership is looking to achieve with the brand is the starting point. Um, and that would very much lead into how we measure its effectiveness and what those KPIs look like. So it can work at all element, it can work at all levels of the funnel, essentially, uh, but it would be specific to the brand.

SPEAKER_01

So inevitably, we can't get through um, I think a single podcast without mentioning AI, because what else is everybody talking about? Um how is the world of celebrity going to be affected by AI? We're gonna see a rise of AI generated celebrities, deep fakes. That's a that that's a problem as well. Um can you can you even believe that it is a celebrity telling you to buy what they're rec recommending?

SPEAKER_02

Sheer Lux are using them, aren't they? Um they've got this whole AI department where they're using, you know, fake models. Avatars and yeah, avatars to advertise their clothes and things. But they did come under fire for doing that. But now they've sort of owned it. They've created their own social media channels with these AI bots modelling clothes. And yeah, I mean, I don't know how successful it is, but it looks it looks like the real deal. I can't tell the difference between them. But I think I think in we will see a world with AI movie stars and things in the future because obviously we're saying younger people don't care about Hollywood stars. Are they still watching those you know iconic movies, or are we gonna have AI actors and actresses in the future?

SPEAKER_03

It's a scary concept, isn't it? I think you're saying you're taking work away from real creatives and taking work away from from real humans. And I I think I think to on the flip side of that, I do I do think that you know we talk a lot about the need for human connection in an AI world, and I think we're seeing that in the media landscape, we're seeing that need for trust and authenticity when it comes to experts and um the stories that we're putting out to the press, making sure that they do have that human-centric element to them to drive real connection with audiences. And I do think there will there will be people counteracting the AI influencer world because you know the reason that we work with creators is to drive authenticity, it's to build trust, it's to create connection with communities. And I think once we take that element away, it it for me it feels like it loses its impact because an AI avatar has to be programmed by someone, it's it's the input of a brand. I would feel that I was losing an element of trust there if they were selling a product or service, because it's not a genuine endorsement from a human being. Um, you know, you saw the um the AI uh Influencer he went to Wimbledon, was it?

SPEAKER_01

I follow this AI influencer. People are following this. Not because I care, I'm just really intrigued.

SPEAKER_03

I'm just interested.

SPEAKER_01

Why? Why? Why is it this AI influencer? We have plenty of influencers already. Without an AI.

SPEAKER_02

This is it. I think if if you're making a living out of your face, then potentially you're not gonna have a career in the future.

SPEAKER_03

So again, scary thought. But I I do I do think I do think there is an element of so working with uh a celebrity, for example, I think there's a there's a dangerous territory that we're getting into around copyright infringement, you know, the the deep fake conversation. Like people I saw that a a brand had done an AI post where they'd created a a visual of Snoop Dogg, and that looks like a brand endorsement then. Like how much are you gonna pay for a brand collaboration with Snoop Dogg, and you've just done it using an AI tool. And I think we're gonna get into it, it's not regulated heavily enough at the moment. And I think we will get into a space where there is going to be tighter regulation on these things to make sure that artists are being paid fairly and uh you know, for any kind of brand representation that or perceived brand representation. Um I think the the thing that we might see in the future is um individual celebrities almost licensing their likeness, if that makes sense. So it would cost a lot of money to fly a Hollywood star over to the UK to do a photo shoot, for example. But if you were to work on a licensing basis where you can say, well, we'll use your visual representation in our marketing campaign, AI will get to a point where it's smart enough to take that person's face and create video content, ads, a whole ecosystem of content, but you've just paid a license fee versus doing all of that in person. So I think we might get to a space where celebrities and influencers will license their likeness, if that makes sense. But this is all getting a little bit black mirror at this point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but that is fascinating. I just don't know what to believe at the moment. I look on Facebook, I keep getting ads for all these products ranging from personal trainer fitness mirrors through to bone broth. It's a theme, isn't there? Um and it they've all been on this morning or have you? I don't know. Is that an AI or have yeah?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What to believe?

SPEAKER_03

I think title regulation is needed. I was reading an article on the BBC about um working to sort of trademark an uh a human-generated logo or a stamp that says that this isn't AI, essentially. And I think because AI has accelerated at such pace, I think we've just got a little bit out of touch with what's real and what's not at this point. It's it's completely snowballed, really, and I think at a pace that hasn't allowed us to put these kind of regulatory processes in place to make sure that individuals are protected, that revenue is protected, and and I suppose ultimately the brand's protected as well.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's um a slightly terrifying uh uh moment to end on. Robots are coming for everything, but it's all good. We don't know what's true and what's not. Um, but thank you both very much for sharing your views on the future of influencer and celebrity marketing.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.