GEO Explained: How AI is Reshaping Brand Discovery

In this episode of What’s Got the World Talking?, we’re talking about Generative Engine Optimisation – otherwise known as GEO - and how AI-powered search is reshaping brand discovery.

Search is no longer just about rankings and clicks. Audiences have swiftly embraced the comprehensive, nuanced answers delivered by AI-powered search in place of those old lists of blue links, and it’s changing everything from visibility to content strategy. 

So, after years of refining search strategies, optimising for keywords and climbing rankings, what should brand marketers be doing now? What determines whether your brand appears in an AI-generated answer? Has SEO fundamentally changed and, if so, in what ways? And why are authority, credibility and earned media suddenly becoming some of the most valuable assets in a marketer’s toolkit? 

Jane is joined by associate director Rob Jones and senior content director Tom Went to explore what has changed, why it matters, and how PR, content and SEO fit into the new ecosystem.

If you're fascinated by the topics that get the marketing world talking, make sure you don't miss an episode of What's Got the World Talking?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think now people expect they want a single answer rather than a set of choices that they can scroll through. And I think where the LLMs have come in is they've they've offered that clarity, that single sort of source of information.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I mean that it's a good thing for brands that have always invested in PR because they believe it's great for I think credibility to their organisation. It's just a kind of second payoff now in terms of the earned coverage that they're receiving.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Owning the conversation doesn't necessarily mean owning every conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

The very, very early adopters could probably gain traction through optimising for machines, but I think then the machines change and they learn that people don't want to read rubbish that's been churned out by AI to tick multiple boxes. They want to read unique content that is aimed at their area of interest.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

The integrated aspect. Sometimes people have worked integrated in name, but maybe not in spirit, and I think that's probably where it might need to change.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, there's there's no hiding from it now. You've got to do it, haven't you? Hello and welcome to What's Got the World Talking. In this episode, what's got us chatting is generative engine optimization, GEO, and how AI-powered search is reshaping brand discovery. Search is no longer just about rankings and clicks. Audiences have swiftly embraced the comprehensive, nuanced answers delivered by AI-powered search in place of those old lists of blue links, and it's changing everything from visibility to content strategy. So after years of refining search strategies, optimising for keywords and climbing rankings, what should brand marketers be doing now? What determines whether your brand appears in an AI-generated answer? Has SEO fundamentally changed? And if so, in what ways on why authority, credibility, and earned media suddenly becoming some of the most valuable assets in a marketer's toolkit? I'm joined by Associate Director Rob Jones and senior content director Tom Wendt to explore what has changed, why it matters, how PR content and SEO fit into the new ecosystem and where we're heading. Hello, welcome back. I think podcast regulars now. Do you want to start by introducing yourselves?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Uh so I'm Tom, uh senior content director at WPR. So um yeah, very much in the sort of content-space GEO so looking forward to that discussion.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I'm Rob, Associate Director here at WPR. My third time on the podcast, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

You must be good. We keep inviting you back.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Hopefully, yeah, yeah. Like to think so.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

So today we're here to discuss all things GEO. Uh obviously everyone is talking about GO, AI, and search engines. Let's sort of set the scene by explaining what GEO actually is.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I'll go first. I think the in basic terms, it's a strategy to rank on the LLMs effectively. So making sure that your brand is present and mentioned, cited, or or even named as a source for the queries that people are now searching on these bots. Beautiful explanation.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

And yeah, when we're talking about sort of GEO, we're referring to platforms like Google in terms of its AI functionality, but new, probably not new anymore, but kind of newer. Developing emerging platforms, Claude, Perplexity, Chat GPT, um is sort of the household name at the moment. So the sort of chat bots that people know them as.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah. So how has how has it changed in terms of how people search for brands or just search online?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

I think we're all seeing it, aren't we, in in in our daily lives almost without realizing it? I think search has become a lot more conversational, a lot more specific. Um, I think people are, and we see this across numerous different channels, platforms, about how time poor people are and how impatient people are. I think now people expect they want a single answer rather than a set of choices that they can scroll through. And I think where the LLMs have come in is they've they've offered that clarity, that single sort of source of information, sometimes recommending a brand rather than a sort of infinite number of search results that people can scroll through. And I think that that in itself has sort of resulted from the fact that search is is more conversational, um, sometimes longer tail, um, less reliance on keywords, more reliance on very specific questions and queries.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, I think as Rob said, it's it's changed from a keyword-based approach really to a sort of longer tail question-based search behavior. So um the way the technology interfaces with people now is is is much different than it was before. I think we treat you know these bots in a much different way than we do to Google. Um, and obviously in terms of what we do, we need to obviously respond in kind, make sure that content's answering those questions, uh not just in terms of like keyword relevance, but also in terms of like authority and relevance for the for the brand that we're trying to produce content for.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Have we got any insights and data on just how seismic this shift has been in can in consumer people's behaviour?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I I think the the biggest impact we've probably seen is is the introduction of Google AI overviews. So I think traffic, traditional organic traffic has has dipped significantly in the sort of time that's been introduced. Um I think we've seen 30% dips, is it? Possibly even even more than that.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, it varies, doesn't it? But I think um you you there's this zero-click sort of term that's that's not necessarily crept in, I think stormed in, stormed to the party. And and we're seeing now people are not necessarily needing to visit a brand's website to get the answer that they're looking for. And for brands, it's created a real challenge because it's it's kind of like it now suddenly becomes the the interaction that you potentially have with a user, a prospect, a customer becomes much less reliant on channels you can control.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

And are there any kind of demographic insights in terms of which people, which audience types are more likely to use claw versus chat GPT versus sticking to Google because they know it and like it?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I think originally we were seeing this, you know, it's like a lot of sort of emerging channels. We see the younger generation, the sort of Gen Z millennial um audiences potentially being those early adopters, but it's not, you know, from what we're seeing now, and partly due to the the way that AI's now become baked into the likes of Google, yeah. This isn't a young person's thing as such. This is just whether people realize it or not, most of us now are using an AI search mechanic of some description. So I think there's a there's a bit of maybe a uh generalization sometimes, and people almost assume and have apply this connotation that, oh yeah, that's just for the you know, the kids, the graduates, the sort of university students that are using AI now. Not the case at all. It's um it's it's being applied to pretty much every industry that we work across and every market that those industries serve as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, it's it's good to keep in mind as well, though, that those search behaviours probably have changed substantially, but there's also a great deal of people that are still using the traditional organic Google search or another search engine. So while the change has been profound, I think it's it's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as it were. Um, we shouldn't have this wholesale shift towards this way of creating content and this way of searching. So it's just something to bear with.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Well, I think it depends what you've gone online to do. If you've gone online to find the answer to a question, just do some research. I think you go to the the AI tools first, but if you've gone to buy something, you still need to go onto the website ultimately, don't you? So probably a little bit of both. And what's your search tool of choice these days?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

I'm still uh well, yeah, Google is still my main search tool. But I think uh increasingly day-to-day in in work, I do use more of a bot, so copilot here at WPR. But um yeah, I think uh eventually that will probably change to uh I'm very similar, actually.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah, still Google, it's a weird thing. Outside of work, it'll always be Google. Um insider work, we're a Microsoft business, aren't we? So Copilot's sort of baked into uh a lot of the programs that we use. So yeah, it becomes almost second nature, I think. So for me, yeah. But again, you know, think about the the technologies that these bots and these um platforms are built on, even Copilot sort of uses a chat GPT or the OpenAI sort of product in its in its background. So, in a sense, you're using the same data, if you like, the same um source information, but in it through a different interface.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I was gonna say, for the purposes of this conversation as well, obviously for our GEO service, we're looking at all of the platforms, so not just Copilot, of course. So I suppose personally I'm using Copilot, but in a sort of work capacity for clients, I'm looking at all of them really.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

It's really rare you've got two people sat on a sofa, neither of which go to chat GPT first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Well, Claude's Claude seems to be one that people are talking about most at the moment. What are the what are the advantages of Claude over the other?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

So I I think the assumption is Claude has the most powerful model at the moment. So I think in terms of the quality of the outputs, it's that much greater than what has typically been Copilot's the most popular chat bot. But it's interesting in in talking to clients that have marked you know uh offices and markets overseas, Claude is a lot more popular in America than apparently uh ChatGPT is. Obviously, the assumption would be that ChatGPT is the most popular, but not the case apparently.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Oh, I didn't know that. Learn something here every day, and that's what I've learned today. So it's clearly a rapidly evolving space. So from a marketer's perspective, how much do we actually know about how best harness geo for a brand right now?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I think uh the assumption is that good SEO still reinforces a lot of what we need to do with GEO. But I think the intention behind the searches is something that's changed quite substantially. So moving from a keyword-based way of searching to a longer tail question conversational format, as Rob mentioned earlier, the the way you create content in response to that has changed quite substantially. So it's more about understanding the searches' intentions and their follow-up intentions as well, and not necessarily just optimizing content for a particular keyword or a friend.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I think it's been really interesting to see kind of how this sort of space is developed because there's there's there's almost an irony baked into the conversations that we're having, which is people are now using AI a lot more to find information. But as a result of that, I think the AI algorithms have evolved to the point where they're rewarding that kind of human-centric, trustworthy um quality of content that AI potentially can't deliver. So, on one hand, you've got, and I know we've spoken about this in a previous episode where we spoke about the use of AI and the potential pitfalls in using AI to generate content. And the irony is, in terms of AI search, the rewards are really there for the brands that don't just delegate their content to an AI model and actually invest in human-centric content, case studies, interviews, testimonials, opinions, insights, proprietary data, all of those things that really build trust and credibility are being rewarded no end through the LLMs as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So it probably brings brings us really nicely on to the next question is what are brands getting right and wrong in relation to GA at the moment that you're seeing across the board?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

So I think one of the big challenges at the moment, and it's very uh indicative, I suppose, or evocative of the early year of SEO, where companies are now producing like best of lists or comparison lists in the same way that companies used to keyword stuff their websites in order to rank quickly for certain terms or topics. So that seems to be an approach at the moment, but I don't think it's going to last for long because as we've seen with Google over the years, the the uh the interfaces behind these or the systems behind these um search consoles have have got more sophisticated and they they sort of block out these these uh quick win tactics, I suppose. So, in terms of what people are getting wrong at the moment, I think that's probably a strategy that's doomed to fail. And they should focus more on content that will answer people's questions and intentions satisfactorily, uh, and obviously making sure that that's up to date over time.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

I think the other thing that we see a little bit, and it's forgivable because I think this is all uh it's a rapidly developing space that you know it's it's difficult to stay on top of this stuff. But I think one of the things that maybe brands are getting wrong as well is sort of not breaking down that silo between owned channels and earned media as well. So I think we've you know we've seen and and read a lot about um and the evidence all proves it, this this concept of corroboration, i.e. the algorithms pick up information that they can they can see your brand associated with across multiple channels. So it could be that you've got a particular product, you've got content on your own website, but also you've got thought leadership around that product category within the trade press, for example, all of that kind of ecosystem works together to really kind of bring results. So I think, again, completely forgivable that those brands, much like we saw, we've seen with sort of SEO and PR over the years, there's there's sometimes a gap. The brands that really succeed are the ones that close that gap.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

It's a it's a massive challenge for brands because you've they've invested so much money, tens, hundreds of thousands, millions over the years, in getting their websites P2B optimized, the backlinks rolling in, it's all lovely, then something just comes along and says, Well, that model's in the bin. You've almost got to start from scratch. Is it is it starting from scratch?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

I'd say it's not really, in some respects, because the the way a website's structured, the the schema, that's very important to your chances of being cited or or sort of um you know retrieved, I suppose, in one of these bots. So no, I think good SEO principles still reinforce uh GEO success, really.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

So I think sometimes, you know, we we've mentioned that kind of credibility factor. We've we've run audits, haven't we, for brands sort of looking to enhance their AI visibility. And and sometimes it's just been a case of you know, the recommendation would be you take that product category page and you add in more trust signals that the you know the the algorithms will pick up and sort of value. So it's not to say that all of the hard work of years gone by is is lost, but I think sometimes it's it's enhancing that and bringing in kind of new um might be new functionality, it might just be a bit more information um around a product or around a service, or again, keep going back to it, that kind of evidence and proof is has become really, really important as well.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily starting from scratch. I suppose it's more thinking about all of the points in between now. So companies may have before only thought about search in in search terms, but yeah with GEO, we now need to start thinking about authority and relevance and how the brand, I guess, is perceived by these machines. So that obviously brings in lots of different teams that wouldn't necessarily be or traditionally be part of the search function. So I guess that's where some might be starting from scratch.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

True. A question I'm often asked by clients is how important to backlinks still these days?

SPEAKER_02 14:46

I would say it's still pretty important, right? Yeah, we from what we understand, they're still important, probably not not the be-all and end all, as people may have sort of bought into over previous years, but still a massive signifier of trust to search algorithms that we're still we're still relying on today. Um again, I think we've always sort of been maintained that view, and we've seen it within analytics for the brands that we work with. The links don't necessarily prove to be a really strong referrer of traffic to a website anyway, but what they do do is offer that um that signifier of it's a trustworthy, this is a trustworthy source of information. And that that still stands today in the kind of AI search landscape as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

I think to me that it's a good thing for brands that have always invested in PR because they believe it's great for I think credibility to their organization. Is this a kind of second payoff now in terms of the earned coverage that they're that they're they're receiving?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I think we all got slightly biased, but I think.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Well, we're very biased. I think we all got very excited, didn't we? Maybe um sort of back end of last year, there was a lot of sort of data that was coming out of the likes of SEMROSH brilliant, you know, brilliant data and brilliant research that um that was being brought to prominence around the most common sort of citation sources, the websites that are being cited the most frequently. And you start to see the the takeaway was earn media is is where you really need to invest because that's where those trust signals that the algorithms are looking for really come through. So it's no you know, it's no surprise we've seen the likes of Reddit, LinkedIn, YouTube, they're among, you know, they're among the top um websites in terms of citations and what do they all have in common? They're all largely centered around human-generated, user-generated content. So um that authenticity is really what the algorithms are looking for.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

So, how should brands tweak or overall transform, I don't know, their PR strategy with LLMs in mind?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

I think it's it's perhaps again go back to a point that we mentioned earlier on. It's not it's it's about seeing earned media as part of an ecosystem, a really important part of an ecosystem, but looking at how you can generate content that can be deployed across multiple channels, even social. So it particularly in the B2B space, we see now, you know, that thought leadership campaign that we might have just looked at getting coverage for in some quality trade media outlets. It's really important that that same viewpoint, that same sort of school of thought is deployed across LinkedIn as well, purely because of how prominent that is as a citation source. So I think I think in terms of the strategies, those that have sort of had really effective PR strategies and were invested in it before, probably don't need to massively overhaul what they were already doing. But I think there's a real thought that needs to go into how that single message can be deployed across multiple channels, encompassing owned channels as well as earned.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah, we talk a lot in consumer social about sweating the assets if you produce a piece of content by TikTok, it well works well for Reels, et cetera. And I think that's how brands need to look at all the content they're producing now.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, and it's that cor corroboration point that we we mentioned earlier, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I was just gonna say, I think in terms of like the tactics, I suppose it's making sure that those messages are consistent across all platforms. But that's not just the brand, it could be a spokesperson as well. So if you're doing um some thought leadership on LinkedIn and also in the press, you need to make sure that it's the same author, the same points being raised, and the same um date of publication, because these things are all feeding into the sense that this company knows what they're talking about. This person is an authoritarian.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

I didn't know it went down to such minutiae. That's a really good point. Well, I say minutia is it might not be minutiae, but I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

No, it is, it's a really good point as well, actually, around the timeliness of it, because I think we're seeing now as well data that shows us that the it's the more recent content that that's being published that is being picked up and and sort of rewarded, if you like, within the the um generative AI answers. And I think, yeah, it maybe for those brands that would have worked on a campaign-by-campaign basis. So if you were you know a seasonal sort of brand with very seasonal sales cycles, for example, maybe worth thinking about activity you can do to sort of bridge those gaps between campaigns because that recency has become become a really important sector as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

I was gonna say it's almost in even more important now to be able to recognise news opportunities and be able to insert your brand into that conversation because those those periods between the stories that you really own and the ones that you may be able to contribute to are what will make the difference in terms of visibility long term, I think. So, particularly with the recency biases Rob mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

I th I forget the figure now, which I'm kicking myself for, but something like 7570% of citations up in the last 12 months. We're all gonna kick ourselves now, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

There's a lot of data. Put it in the comments. There is a lot of data around that, and I think the the trouble with geo generally, so just to sort of broaden the net, I guess, things are moving very quickly. And the assumptions that people made to begin with, yeah, when this became a sort of new discipline, I suppose, or even if it is a new discipline, that's another conversation. The pictures changed substantially in that period. So what we're saying now may actually change in the future, I guess that's obviously just a caveat for us as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

And you'll come back when we need to do another one.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, there's that next week and do another one.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

It's all and it's all relative to industry, isn't it? So I think again, we talk about recency, but recency is all relative. If you're real in a really highly competitive market where there's you know tens of brands all competing in the same product category, that recency is really going to matter a lot. If you're in a really niche specialist B2B sector, for example, not to say it's not important, but you perhaps don't need to worry quite so much about the um, you know, investing in recency as as maybe some of those faster moving um product categories might.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

But I think what it does say is across the board, you can't just say, right, AI search is here, LLMs are really important. So we're going to do a PR campaign. It doesn't work like that, does it? You can have campaigns with spikes of activity, but you've got to underpin that with always on and activity.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

And to be completely transparent, you know, when we first started looking at this as a as a service we felt we could offer, I think we were maybe a bit guilty of going, well, brilliant. All the all the site, you know, the the sort of common citation sources, the websites that are being really pulled through to the AI answers, they're earn media. That's great for PR. And then you do some testing and you start seeing, well, in certain categories, actually it's not earned media that's driving the results at all. It's owned. It's the client's own website, for example. So getting that mix is really important. And I think to think that, or to assume it's one or it's the other, is a really dangerous pitfall to fall into, particularly because of how fast moving this space is. Um, it could all change. I think you've got that to it to an extent, uh, this isn't the most strategic comment you'll ever hear on this podcast, but there is a degree of hedging bets that I think needs to take place within the GEO arena as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, well, much like LLMs themselves, we're all just still learning and we're not we're not going to stop learning for a very long time to come.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

And I think that's the thing. There's there's obviously a a bit of uh a short sightedness about treating it as a campaign. It's you know, you shouldn't really treat these things as a campaign because. They're an evergreen aspect of your brand, right? Visibility and relevance and authority aren't really things that you can engineer over a short period. They're they're the long-term projects that you really need to invest in.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

I think you've touched on this, Rob, but is there any clarity around the type of content that's most likely to feature?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah, I think we uh to go back to that point about authenticity. I think what the again, the irony that the algorithms are now recognizing that it is easier than ever before for anyone and any brand to create content about a particular subject. Um as a result of that, I suppose the fight back is what the algorithms are now starting to sort of cite um in their answers is proof points. So it could be case studies, it could be proprietary data, so data that your brand has that no other brand can offer. Um it could be testimonial from customers, reviews, tensor.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Industry reports, I see that like which reports, yeah, absolutely. General roundups of 10 of the best.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, and and one of the areas that I think is really interesting is that kind of user-generated content space where you know Reddit was getting all the headlines, I think, probably six to nine months ago for how prominent a citation source it was. And it's a tricky one because it's really it's a space I think brands have got to tread very carefully if they think they can get involved in those those organic communities online.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Well, so you've got to be very transparent, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, you can't pretend if you want to go down that route. But I think one of the other things that we've seen um that you can do really effectively is use it as a source of insight. So look at what what are your customers.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

What people are actually asking, and you provide those answers, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

And that that can be fed back into any sort of content framework to really aid that visibility. And that again, that you you are you are then able to answer genuine queries, genuine kind of knowledge gaps within your market as a brand, and and sort of grow your um your visibility as a result of that.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I think there's a lot of concern about control of message. So is the answer that you're being given by Claude, chat, GPT, whatever, right? And what can marketers do to control that? Can they? It's a huge question.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

It is it there is an element of risk with the way these bots work, but I think what we've said earlier on the podcast as well still applies. So it's making sure that everything you put out there is consistent and accurate. So that's making sure that your pages are up to date or as much as they can be, um, not leaving information out there that could be passed or or um inferred by these machines in in a in an incorrect way. So I guess the the consistency and relevance point and accuracy is really where you can keep as much control as you can, but there is an element of risk. So uh yeah, it's it's a wild west in some senses, but also there are there are moves you can make.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Yeah, it's it's also where the risk, the risk is around updating one channel and not the other. So I think we've again, you you know, you see, you see it all over LinkedIn at the moment, those kind of stories about brands, they might have updated the product category pages of their website, but content still exists out in the the ecosystem, you know, earn media sources, for example, that refer to an old product. Now, there's not realistically, are we going to go out to press contacts and say, oh, we need to take that, take down that article that appeared three, four, five years ago. Probably not. But what you can do is is sort of continue that cycle and make sure that you've got campaigns and you've got activity that really sort of shines the spotlight on those newer products in the same way your website does. So it all acts as a kind of one acts as an amplifier of the other.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah. And to bring this back to earned media again, I think there's such a reputational question for clients as well, because one negative article could come back to haunt you. I'm I'm seeing it for quite a long time to come on these sort of AI search models.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah, I guess that just reinforces the idea that you need a good PR agency to be able to do that. Oh, you do.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I I I know one.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Me too, actually. Uh, but I I I guess, yeah, the you know, the serious point is that like those those things will have a lasting effect, but there is a, as we say, a recency effect that can obviously tip the balance in some respects. And obviously that's just making sure that what you're putting out there is consistent, positive, and you know, accurate to to users' intentions. So there are there are things you can do, um, despite the fact that these these negative stories can have an impact.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Well, protecting your reputation has always been really important, but perhaps more so than ever now.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

And there's an episode about that that you can go with. Oh, there is, yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Good plug, good plug. I can't remember the number.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

It's interesting though, because the it's not just the story that the the bot will see, I suppose, and understand, interpret, but also the response. So, say a brand has had a crisis, the bot will be able to understand the steps that have been taken since in a way that maybe a casual reader of a newspaper hasn't. So if you've had a negative story, that's not to say you can't put steps in place after the fact to correct the course because of the way these machines now read the internet. So, yeah, it's it's not uh it's not a lost course.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Another excellent point. You're on fire today, Tom. An excellent guest indeed. So, are brands optimizing for machines or humans when they're looking at their strategies?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

I think ultimately, you know, you see development of algorithms across numerous digital, you know, platforms that we've worked across for years, LinkedIn, Meta, you know, you name it. They've all kind of the algorithms evolve and adapt based on what they know human beings want. And I think we're seeing that same thing happen in this space with GEO and AI search, where the the very, very early adopters could probably gain traction through optimizing for machines, but I think then the machines change and they learn that people don't want to read sort of rubbish that's been churned out by AI to tick multiple boxes. They want to read unique content that is aimed at their area of interest, and that's not going to change.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

It's funny, more things change, the more they stay the same in many respects. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

So are the challenges facing B2B businesses and consumer brands the same, different, overlap?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

I think the challenge in terms of visibility, authority, relevance apply across both strands. But I think the bigger challenge for B2C is obviously that there's a, I guess, a greater surface area. There are more users and more engagers, typically with a consumer brand than there would be with a B2B brand. So um people will post reviews about products or a service or a brand, and that may have a more profound impact on the, I guess, way these machines interpret uh a company or a business. So um that that's probably the bigger challenge, I think, for for consumer brands. But as I say, I think that's right, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I think the the sort of battleground where you can win and lose, I think, can differ between B2C brands and B2B brands, you know, like where whereas you might have a case study or a testimonial for a multi-million pound piece of kit in a B2B market, that could be you know you might need, you know, that could be the equivalent of thousands of customer reviews um for your product on you know FIFA or or you know, an equivalent. I think it's factoring in kind of where your customers take their information, where they sources that they trust. I think that can vary across across the two. Um, but the broad principles, like you say, around you know, trust, third-party accreditation, um, social proof as well, I think is a big one. Do is there evidence that people are actually using your product, enjoying your product, reacting positively to your product? There, you know, that stands true across both segments, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah, it's interesting as well, because I kind of want to go track back on what I said initially, but there is also that that social strategy element you really need to keep in mind for B2B brands, because LinkedIn, for instance, is such an important source of information for these bots. So what you're putting out there will obviously have a a sort of very big impact on how these machines interpret your brand. And that's kind of the similar challenge, I suppose, for like consumer reviews in B2C. So, um, yeah, I guess in some senses the challenge is actually quite even, but um just different in in nature, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

The more we talk about it, the more I just realise, or I think I realise it anyway, but just how huge a challenge this is for marketing teams. Do you think marketing teams are realizing the scale of the challenges facing them and are being quick to embrace them, or you see different pictures?

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Very mixed, I would say. I think some, I think some are. I think I think some are, and some are quite daunted. And I completely understand. I feel daunted just listening to it. Yeah. Um I think others maybe buy into this idea that, well, GEO, it's not really any different to SEO. Do we need to overcomplicate it? I think, again, like with all of these things, there's a lot of nuance around it. There's a there's a grey area somewhere in the middle of all this that we need to we need to operate within. What I would say advice to any sort of marketing team that is maybe scratching their heads a little bit about the the challenge that they're facing is bring your channel specialists together.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Well, this is going to lead on to my next question. You know, there's always been marketing teams always say it's really important that our agencies are integrated, they work really well together. But when GEO relies on the SEO teams, PR more and more social content, how do you knit those specialist teams together really well to deliver this sort of harmonious result that from a practical standpoint?

SPEAKER_02 31:33

I would say, and again, you might say, well, you would say this, wouldn't you? You know, the more of those channels you can bring within one under one roof, within one team, I think that that consistency of message that Tom mentioned earlier, it it's it's a lot easier to deploy when you've got the same team or the same, yeah, you know, the same network of people all working towards that that same goal. So I think that's one thing I would say is is sort of minimizing any friction between teams is is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah, I think uh the integrated aspect. Sometimes people have worked integrated in name, but maybe not in spirit. And I think that's probably where it might need to change.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

We need to actually Yeah, there's no hiding from it now.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

You've got to do absolutely some people that maybe would have been able to get away working in a more of a silo, I suppose, might might not be able to do that now.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

And I think, you know, even if you're an agency partner that's providing just one service, I think there's an obligation to say to a client, this is the idea, this is how it would work on earn media, but this is how it could also impact the other channels. It might not be us as executing it, but this is what that investment could deliver if all the teams work seem to see together. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

We're we're all ultimately we're we're all here, or we should all be here to prove demonstrable impact on a business's bottom line, and what however that could look. And I think it's in everyone's best interest whether you're responsible for social or not. If you've got a campaign that is being deployed on one channel, giving some thought to whether and how that can be deployed across another to get that message across to the same audience is is more important. It's always been important, but I think it's potentially more important now than ever before.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Than ever. And as you said earlier, it's not just about the the getting the same message out, it's getting out in a timely fashion, in a unified fashion, same spokesperson, etc.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Consistency, and I guess the the strategy aspect of things is more important than ever now, just simply because obviously everyone needs to be sort of singing the same same tune, really. So um, if you don't have a clear direction of where you're going, it will be very difficult to sort of put the foundations in place for visibility, I suppose, and obviously making sure that you're having a it's lasting success, I guess, really.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

So if you have a client that comes to you and says, obviously, we're aware the way that people are discovering our brand is is changing. We haven't invested anything to date in GEO. Where do we begin? And that is a big question, isn't it? But where where should they begin?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

It's quite comforting in some respects because a lot of people are at a very early stage. Even I would say the more sort of mature adopters or people that are playing in this space at the moment are still at a very early stage. I think it is a sort of rapidly moving picture. So I guess the first thing I would say is don't worry too much. But on the other hand, make sure that you're obviously working with people, either have access to tools that can sort of determine visibility and uh performance from a benchmark, and then obviously have an understanding of how all those pieces fit together to sort of you know uh improve visibility.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, I think we you know we've invested in a really sophisticated platform that can that can do a lot of this stuff that can basically shed some light on where you might want to start or how your competitors are faring compared to you. Um I think the other thing to bear in mind is don't necessarily see this as a sort of monumental task that is going to take you years to overcome. We we try and break it down into bite-sized chunks, look at one product category initially, or look at one market initially. How can we sort of make traction and make gains in that area? And then once we've sort of started that ball rolling, there's there's potential then to expand out into other areas.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah, owning the conversation doesn't necessarily mean owning every conversation. You can start from a a sort of quite singular point and spread outwards that way. Much in the same way SEO works, really. You don't have to start from the ground up.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So if brands haven't got a limitless budget, as I'm most don't. Uh, where should they start? Where would you say the the biggest investment should be?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Well, it's a visibility challenge in essence. So the the starting point really should be a benchmark, understanding you know what your position is to begin with, I suppose, and obviously having access to a a platform or an agency partner that actually can do that for you. Um, because obviously you can't rank it.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

You can't you can't just sit there asking chat GPT questions all day to see how many you appear in the arms.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

I mean you could, but yeah, I mean that that is part of the process. Obviously, you you would like to see that more over time, but obviously that's a very one-ended picture of the search process. And obviously, that's one platform as well. So you don't have a more holistic view.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah, I think it's really important that brands invest in that insight up front, understanding who it is that they're trying to reach and get their message in front of, what are they interested in, where do they hang out, where that the which platform, which are their platforms of choice, which which platforms do they trust? Um I think really from that, it it in a sense, whether you're a marketing team of three or you've got a network of 10 agencies working for your marketing department, you then know that the areas. You're gonna invest in the right places. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

So I know certainly you've you've pulled a lot of data from me on clients, and it's fascinating. You can just find out how many AI searches you're appearing in, how that compares to the competition. Uh, yeah, and look at individual parts of the business. And so that's gonna be our priority. Like you say, break it down.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Not just the initial search as well, but where that search ends up is quite an important feature, I guess, for like a you know, thinking about my content hat on here, the strategy. So, what where are those initial searches ending up? Because we know from the well from the way we all use these bots that you don't just start and end with one search, you usually do a follow-up, and it's obviously making sure that you've got content that's addressing those follow-up intentions, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah. I've got a really random question. When you ask, you know, co-pilot or GPT a question, do you put please? Because I just can't seem to stop myself doing it.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

I think I do as well. I heard this. One of the very early webinars I sat on, um, there was a speaker, really good speaker who made the point that she seemed to be getting better results by using good manners.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I knew there was a reason I didn't. I'm just thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

We're all very polite people, aren't we? So I think you know, it's uh it's just the thing to do. But yeah, there was there was a suggestion. I don't know if it's true anymore, but I I can't I can't train myself out of doing it now.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Well, I'm just thinking I'm I'm um you know uh playing it safe when the machines come for us all. I might be I might be I might be put aside as one of the more polite ones.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

I love this because I've I've learned that not only am I not on my own in this behaviour, but actually I'm right too.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

So last question, a huge one. What your predictions for GA is gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

I think it will only increase in importance simply because these machines are integrated, as Rob mentioned earlier, into almost every product we use now. And uh whether or not that's a good thing or not, it's a fact of life, and that is obviously clearly gonna have an impact on the success of brands and you know their visibility in these in these platforms. So uh yeah, it's gonna be bigger probably in the coming years, is my prediction.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, I think we're gonna see more very use of these platforms as well. So I think you know, this isn't new, but I can I think we're gonna see an increased dominance of voice search as well. So, you know, we're all very used to typing things into our phones on Chat GPT. I think people using them as literal sort of conversation partners, if you like. I think that's gonna that's gonna happen more and more. And I think with that will become the conversational nature of search will will completely skyrocket as a result of that.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

But we'll still say please and thank you.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Absolutely, we'll still say please and thank you for the reasons Tom said before.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

And do you think the different platforms will have will find their own niches or yeah, I think quite possibly.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Um I think ultimately, you know, we shouldn't forget that these platforms are commercial entities, so they all want they probably all want ad revenue ultimately, but they all want they all want a point of difference, a USP. So I think we will probably continue to see specialist areas of you know, whether, yeah, what that looks like. I I I wouldn't want to speculate.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Uh well it helped to refine investment. So you could, for example, for B2B brands, co-pilots where it's a hat for consumer brands, it could be something different, but it would perhaps help.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Some models do appear to be more effective at certain tasks than others. So obviously it's just making sure that if you're say a data-heavy business, you're choosing to uh target or create content for that platform so that it matches up well.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Something that I don't think is talked about enough is it's actually quite a skill to getting the information out of those platforms in the style that you want it.

unknown 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

I'll use it for prompt engineering. Well, I'll use it for image mockups or pitch. We want to visualize something that doesn't exist. So you've got to it can take four or five attempts.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

I think I just need to I need to work on this as well as Yeah, but it's an interesting point though, because I think that's where I think we were probably all guilty of when, you know, when um AI search first became a thing, you'd almost go, you almost type a one-liner into it and go and and expect the answer to be perfect. And it's just not the case. But I think people are getting wise to that now, and that's affecting that's affecting behaviors massively, which is why you're now seeing massive spike in the number of search prompts and search queries people are using to get their answer. And and the nature of search queries become much more long-tailed because people are uh feeding in you know multiple sentences as a search query now because they know they need to do that to get that really specific information out of the platform.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Yeah, well, we're all learning. As we have throughout this podcast, which I think's been truly fascinating. So thank you both very much for your time.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

No problem at all. It's been great.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Thank you.