Menopause Yoga with Petra: Learn how yoga can support strength and calm during Menopaue

During this episode listen to my conversation with Petra Coveeny. Petra is a yoga therapist based in the UK.  A senior yoga teacher, yoga therapist, teacher trainer, author and the founder of Menopause Yoga - launched in 2013. Based in the UK, her Menopause Yoga teacher training courses are internationally recognized, and she has trained over 1500 teachers in 50 countries so far. Petra is also a Personal Trainer level 3 and practices tai chi qigong. She has two children and lives by the sea in Brighton, Sussex, UK, with her dog Alfie. Her website is www.menopause-yoga.com

As a yoga therapist myself it has been so helpful getting to know Petra. Her work on behalf of women in Menopause is  complete but her extended reach into Strength Training goes above and beyond in providing women with a full exercise routine well beyond yoga. 

In this podcast you will learn:

• How yoga provides a way to calm the nervous system, build strength, create balance and provides a gateway into understanding this new self.
• The history of Menopause and how our perceptions of ourselves are largely based on this and germinate the care we take or don't take of ourselves
• A simple practice you can do to get cardio without overdoing or taxing your nervous system.
• How to ensure when you exercise you aren't overdoing and spiking your cortisol causing more stress. 

If you want to work with Petra Coveney, you can find her online at wwwwMenopause-yoga.com and on Instagram and Facebook. Her books can be found on Singing Dragon and Amazon.

If you want to attend one of my classes based on some of Petra's book and tailored for Menopause including strength resistance using your body weight and relaxation you can find me at www.closedlotusyt.com or on Instagram and Facebook. I am also on yoga Tube under Yoga for Healthy Aging and Menopause. Here you will find some Menopause focused practices. 

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the podcast, Finding Balance in Menopause with Jill. I'm your host, Jill Cober, a social worker and yoga therapist, owner of Closed Lotus Yoga. I created this podcast for women in menopause who are interested in finding a holistic way of moving through menopause Nothing's off the table, and all sorts of interventions will be discussed. Each episode, I'll have a new expert on the podcast who has experience working with or going through menopause, sometimes both. When I started menopause, I had zero information, and I'm gathering it from some of the most knowledgeable women I've met. We'll talk yoga, nutrition, hormones, supplements, emotional and physical transitions, and more. If you like the podcast and wanna know other things I'm doing, visit my website, closedlotusyt.com, and subscribe to my newsletter. Let's get into our episode. Hello. Thank you for joining me in my podcast today. And my guest today is Petra Coveney. She's a senior yoga teacher, yoga therapist, teacher trainer, author, and the founder of Menopause Yoga, which was launched in 2013. She's based in the UK. Her Menopause Yoga teacher training courses are internationally recognized, and she's trained over 1,500 teachers in 50 countries so far. Petra's also a personal trainer level three, and practices Tai Chi, or Tai Qigong. She has two children, and lives by the sea in Brighton, Sussex, UK with her dog, Allie. Her website is www.menopauseyoga.com. Thank you so much for joining me today, Petra. Thank you so much for inviting me, Jill. Uh, I'm just gonna start a little bit with how I came to find Petra. Um, obviously we're in different countries and different time zones, which we've acknowledged. And, um, I just wanted to give a little context. So when I started menopause, um, I was feeling pretty disoriented and overwhelmed, not really quite sure where to go or what to do. So yoga's the thing that I know, so I thought, "Well, there must be a, a whole bunch of yoga teachers who are doing yoga for menopause." And so I Googled it, and I found nothing. Um, and so I looked some more. Still came up empty. And then I came across, um, another, a yoga teacher, Nim Daley, who I believe is in Ireland, and I found her book, and so I ordered the book right away and started looking through that. And then I also found, uh, Petra's website. So I was kind of doing, going through Nim's book, and then, um, looking into what Petra offered. I know I originally had, like, signed up for something she offered online. And just since then I, then I went out and bought her book, um, Menopause Yoga and Wellbeing. And just have been kinda making my way through that. Um, the book is very much not something you just, like, read from start to finish. You kinda... I've been kind of using it as I've been going along, and just as I've been constructing some of my classes, I've taken some things from that Um, letting people know that, you know, where it originated from, and just kind of trying to integrate that into my life. So to find someone who, um, validated what I was experiencing and offered something for it, like ways to manage the symptoms, ways to, um, help support my body and my mind in the transition was just really comforting. So I'm so glad that, that you're doing this and sharing it with all of us. Oh, you're so welcome, and thank you for buying the book. Uh, and yes, the, the there are two books. There's the, uh, yellow book that was published in '21. Um, and this is really a guide for teachers or more advanced yoga practitioners. It's got a lot of theory, a lot of yoga theory, philosophy, um, a lot more detail. And the pink book, which was published last year, '25, is really for the public, but also for yoga therapists because it has videos, everything from video classes showing breathing techniques, uh, restorative yoga, to the, uh, specific movement techniques for, um, different menopause symptoms. Um, and so yes, it's, it's got lots of illustrations, it's got videos, it's got instructions. And the classes in this pink book, they are from anything from five minutes to 30 or 60 minutes. So you can basically construct your own class using the different components. And the reason why I created the book in this style was, um, I call it bite-sized menopause yoga for busy women. Uh, because I'm, I'm a busy woman. Yeah. And if someone said to me, you know, "Wake up in the morning, do 60 minutes of this yoga practice," I just found that unrealistic. Mm-hmm. And so I thought, okay, the women I'm working with, and also yoga therapists, they want to give their clients maybe 5, 10, 15-minute practices. Yeah? Yeah. So that was the kind of concept behind it, busy people and yoga therapists working with clients, because what we know from yoga therapy is that people often don't do the work. They don't do the exercises- Yeah unless it is manageable. Right. So yeah, that's where it all came from. Yeah, and I feel like, um, that has really helped me to, in all forms of exercise, to have those bite-size workouts that you can do, that you just have to block maybe 15 minutes in your day as opposed to the expectation of doing a 60-minute class. And I love that it also, um, allows for those days when you're feeling energized and wanna do a little more, and the days that you're feeling fatigued and, uh, maybe sore with joint pain or other things and just can only manage some more gentle or restorative postures Absolutely. And that's really another key message behind the book. It's saying the most important thing that you can do as you're going through perimenopause especially, is to tune in. Listen in to what your body needs that day. Mm-hmm. 'Cause where we see the most injuries or, um, step backs is when people want to stick to a so-called program. Maybe it's something they've gained from the fitness industry and they think, "Okay, I've got to do this amount of exercise every day to achieve this goal." Right. Uh, then what you end up in perimenopause is you end up with injuries- Mm-hmm or burnout. And that becomes much more serious at that perimenopause/menopause stage of life because your body is transforming, and so you need the energy in the mitochondria to fuel you through your day at a time where everything is changing in your body on a cellular level. That takes energy. Change takes energy. You know, maybe someone is experiencing hot flushes. The energy surge of a hot flush in itself, or I think in America you call them flashes, that is going to be using up energy. So people can feel quite, uh, burnt out afterwards- Mm-hmm and dehydrated. You can have people who have the migraine headaches or the insomnia, the broken sleep, and they're waking up fatigued. So... Or you can have the bloating or abdominal discomfort. So, so many different reasons, as well as, and I'm speaking a lot from experience here, inflammation. So we know, don't we, Jill, that menopause is an inflammatory process. Now, I knew this years ago because I had many symptoms such as frozen shoulder, um, uh, soreness in my lumbar spine, discomfort, sciatica, uh, problems with bloating, problems with digesting food. I knew my body was experiencing inflammation. But at that time we had no information about nutrition. Uh, your doctor would just look at you like, "Oh-" "Have you got depression? Can I give you some SSRIs? Can I give you some antidepressants?" And you're like, "No, I'm not depressed. I'm feeling quite low, but actually I've got inflammation." So, um, because we now know that backed by science, I've been teaching it for over 15 years, but we know now that you have to be so careful with your body going through perimenopause and menopause because of all of those issues I've just mentioned, the fatigue- Yeah the tiredness, loss of sleep, the mitochondria, the inflammation, uh, headaches, other soreness or aches and pains. If you try to push through and do some kind of exercise program on a day when you're not feeling capable, then you're going to ca- take a big step back in your health. You may not even be able to function in your daily life Yeah, and I think there's a certain point of needing to be of acceptance that has to happen in order to be able to really fully take care of yourself during perimenopause. Um, acceptance is something I find comes up a lot in this time of life for me and for other women that need to say, like, instead of fighting and pushing into the workout you used to do or the yoga practice you used to do, to say to, to be more accepting of where you are in the moment in that day so that you can really take care of yourself. Which is actually so much vaster, so much more challenging than it sounds. Mm-hmm. Because we, you and I, Jill, we live in, um, a consumer, productive society where women are treated as little men. And so we are expected to function like men, not having menstrual bleeds or changes in our hormone cycles, or the need to take time out at certain times of the month or in our life. And so if we don't push through, we are treated as failures. Yeah. And I think it's always worth us remembering that women's health is a feminist issue. It has to be feminist in the sense that women's health was ignored. Women's health, you know, for centuries has been ignored because our needs were not recognized. So even taking the time out to say, "My body needs to rest today," well, maybe your work, your job, your family don't give you that time, that space, that permission- Yeah to take the rest and time off. Right. So it's so fascinating, isn't it, Jill? When you think about, um, the other major times in a woman's life where her body is literally transforming on that cellular level. So you think about the teenager in puberty- Puberty can last many years. It's not just one year. But in that time of puberty, what are teenagers like? Do you have any teenagers in your house? I do. I have a 13-year-old now. You're so young. And yes, there's a lot of ups and downs. So they have the hormone fluctuation, whether they're male or female. Mm-hmm. They have the sleep changes, so maybe waking up or staying up later but needing to sleep later into the morning. They have the hangry mood, so when they're suddenly hungry. Um, but they also have the times when their body is literally crying out in pain. So for instance, I'm gonna think about my son. When he was 13, he had, um, Osgood-Schlatter's disease, which is basically growing pains. Ah. His body was transforming. My daughter, absolutely exhausted from, um, coming into her menstruation. So that's what happen- We give them a little bit of a break, don't we? They're teenagers. Like, ah, okay, let them sleep. Let them be grumpy or whatever. Mm-hmm. But then you think about the next major change, which is pregnancy and then postpartum. You know, would we say to the pregnant woman, "Well, go out there and go... You know, work harder. What do you mean you're sleepy? What do you mean you need a nap?" Mm-hmm. "What do you mean you need extra food or you just need to not do the household chores? Get out there. Work harder." Can you imagine? Or, um, let's say she's just had the child, and she's got that s- that big drop in, uh, hormones postpartum. Would you say, "Cheer up, love. You know, what are you so down about?" No. We'd say, "We know that you're exhausted, not just from having the baby, not just from caring for the baby, but because your whole body is changing again." Mm-hmm. So why is there so little understanding, uh, acceptance, to use your language, that women at perimenopause and menopause need that extra time, care, support and rest on the days when they need to rest? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the aging, the aging piece, right? Like that, um, not seeing the older woman because she's no longer in these childbearing ages or years. Um, and that, um- I've heard the crone period being used very positively, but I think in general it has, like, a negative connotation. Um, and just not recognizing that, not seeing women in that stage of their life for, for what that stage is. That's right. And we both live in consumer societies where Your value is whether you are productive or reproductive. Mm-hmm. In the woman's case, it will be the reproductivity. So if she comes to a stage of life, whether that's midlife and menopause or before, if she is not reproductive, she automatically loses some of her value. A very great deal of her value, in fact. Right. And plus we do live in a consumer society where youth has been idolized. Then a woman's hair turning gray, wrinkles, sagginess of skin is seen as unattractive, and therefore her sexual cachet has diminished. Yeah. Um, so it, it is fascinating that, you know, when you look at women in our society, um, but this has been going on for hundreds of years, if not longer. So it's not just, just part of the, the modern world or modern life. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then I think there's that, um, that relates, the societal pressures that we're facing then kind of go back to how are we taking care of ourselves. Um, I always think that there's probably an increase in, like, divorce and things like that because of those spouses who are not supportive of their partner needing to take a break or needing to rest. Um, I can think of my own husband who, um, you know, has, has really tried his best to, like, take a little bit more of the meal prepra- prepping over. Um, you know, if I'm, if I'm making dinner he'll ask like, "What can I do to help you?" Um, instead of waiting for me to ask him to help me. Um, and then if I say, "You know, I just have to go," like usually I'll, I'll make dinner and it'll just be cooking or something will need to be done, I'm like, "I have to go lay down." So I'll just go and I'll, like, put the legs up on my couch or I'll grab a bolster and a blanket and go into, like, a supported fish or, you know, do something even just for a few minutes just to reset, 'cause my body is just saying I'm totally overwhelmed. Um, so I think, like, the work that, that you do and the things that you provide and the work that I'm trying to do, you know, is really helping to show women how to support those moments in their day when they do feel overwhelmed and, you know, need to take a break and, and rest. Maybe you can tell a little bit, so we kind of... I know we got into talking about other things, but so e- obviously you went through menopause. Had your own experience there. Is that what really made you create this menopause yoga, is your own experience? Absolutely. So I, uh, turned 60 this year. I went into my perimenopause earlier than my social group, so the women around me my age. Nobody was in perimenopause. Um, my mother unfortunately had passed away quite young, so she wasn't there for me to consult. And so I didn't have anyone in my social group, my family group, who I could really talk to about it. So I went into perimenopause at approximately 43, 44. That was the first stage of it, where I started noticing changes. But of course, back then, this is the dark, dark ages, a long time ago, um, we didn't even know the word perimenopause. Mm-hmm. Like, most people didn't even talk about menopause because it was taboo. It was, you know, not spoken about. But we didn't know the word perimenopause. Mm. In fact, most of our doctors didn't know, and in the UK, um, we have a, an NHS training for doctors, a National Health Service training, and in the seven or eight years of training for a doctor, they, um, would receive either zero education about menopause or they had maybe more recently, um, a recorded module that they could watch, like a webinar, and that was it. So even in the UK, our doctors didn't know, and that's because of our health system as much as anything. We don't have specialist gynecologists, we have general practitioners. But my point being that there was no support out there. So being a yogi, um, I felt the changes in my body. I sensed that my extreme exhaustion, one some days, uh, and high energy another. My mood swings becoming suddenly irritable, that menopause rage that we call it, that one, zero to 100 irritability. Shouting at my children or getting irritable with, I don't know, somebody serving a meal, like a waiter, a waitress. Completely unacceptable irritability at something. I knew something was shifting and changing, but I didn't quite understand what was going on because there was zero information. And so I started trying to do research for myself because the doctor had nothing. And this, Jill, was at a time when we had, I think it was the very early days of Facebook. Can you imagine? Uh, we did have, um, you know, Google searching. We could, you could look on the internet. But, um, all I could find were some books written at least 10 years old, maybe 20 or more years old What was fascinating, Jill, is that in the United States you had a very fervent, strong menopause movement in about the '80s and '90s. Mm. And there were even some yoga teachers who kind of got involved in that, and it was part of a wave of feminism and a wave of, um, women's health, a kind of almost revolution that originated originally from the women's, um, feminist movement. But after the WHO study, you'll know the, um, the World, um, Health study looking at menopause and hormone therapy. Do you remember? Not, not personally, but you remember the research that said that hormone therapy, hormone replacement therapy could cause breast cancer? Right. Now, we now know that that research was faulty, and it was very badly misinterpreted by the media at the time because they wanted big headlines. Mm-hmm. And what that meant was in the United States where you have a very litigious health system, um, doctors stopped prescribing hormone therapy, but it also kind of shut the door. There was almost like a fear of treating women in menopause. Mm. And so what seems to have happened, because I've been trying to piece it together over many years, it seems that even the other holistic wellbeing practices were shut down as well. Mm. Um, and so the books were out of publication. The, the authors were very hard to contact. Um- I did find, and I, I hope this isn't boring. I, I hope it's interesting to- No. Yeah, it is interesting. Mm-hmm. So, and then I start- I really tried to look around the world. And again, this is in very primitive social media times. I found, um, a, a teacher in Brazil called Dina or Dina Rodriguez, who was approximately 80 or 90 years old by this time, and she had led a, um, what she called a hormone yoga therapy course. But she had built her course kind of out of the Jane Fonda fitness years. So even though she was Iyengar trained in India, her, her version of hormone therapy was really based around stay young and beautiful. Mm-hmm. It was how can you retain your fertility? Do these exercises, these breathing techniques, and you'll reignite your ovaries to produce hormones. Now, for me, I was... I should point out b- at this point, um, my first profession was as a journalist. So I used to be a journalist, a producer, a reporter for the British Broad- Broadcasting Company, BBC. So I, I have, um, uh, journalism training, research skills, but also ethics. So I looked at what's going on in Brazil and I thought, we pay homage to everyone who comes before us, and this teacher is, was doing something so valuable and important for people. But where I am now in the UK, I'm not trying to be young and beautiful. I have reached middle age, and so I know my ovaries are going to come to the end of their function. So for me, I was looking for something that was going to help me to transition. How can I age gracefully? How can I go through this major change without fear? How can I emerge into my post-menopause feeling wonderful, healthy? And that's when, because Western medicine was offering nothing, not even hormone therapy. Nothing from, um, the holistic wellbeing side of things. So I thought, what can I do? What can I research, try and test and create- Mm-hmm for myself, but also for all those o- those other people out there. And then Jill, what happened is all of that menopause rage and irritability, I turned that rage into outrage. Outrage at why is women's health so poorly looked after? Why is there no support, advice or guidance for women in perimenopause and menopause? And because I had that journalistic head, I was like, "Right, I'm going to create something which is both factually correct." So none of this woo-woo nonsense about, ooh, what is menopause? Oh. No. Fact. What's happening to your hormones? What's happening to your body? Why are you feeling this way? Mm. But I was combining that Western medical science from the modern world with all of the benefits that I knew came from yoga and holistic practice. Mm. So that meant that I leant into Ayurveda. Yeah? Mm. I leant into traditional Chinese medicine. And it was at that point when I was doing my research, Jill, that I came across a beautiful book that changed everything The book was called Reflections of the Moon on Water. Have you ever heard of this book? I have not. Oh, it's on my shelf still. Um, this book, the author, I'm afraid she has a Chinese name, and so I'm not able to pronounce it on a podcast. But I will go try and find it so I can show it to you so you can look at it. This beautiful book was looking at, uh, women's health from traditional Chinese medicine, and the author was looking at the stages of a woman's life as different seasons in nature. And she was saying that in traditional Chinese medicine, the transition from your reproductive to post-reproductive life is not negative. It's not bad. It is your second spring. So this is the first time I'd ever heard of that concept, second spring. And I was like, "What do you... Second spring?" I thought it was all just doom and gloom, and witches, and gray hair, and warts, and everything was horrible. Um, and it was like, no, second spring, it's your re-flowering, your re-blooming, your regrowth. And even more than that, she said, at this stage of life, a woman finally steps into her own shoes. She steps into wholeness. She becomes whole. And she also talked about the feeling that when you get into your second spring, your second youth, there is this spiritually very deep and psychologically deep connection with your teenage self. So the teenager before she fully went through puberty and menstruation, that teenager had aims, dreams, things that she wanted to do with her life. But by becoming fertile, your body no longer is your own. It has a different purpose in life. You have responsibilities, and then you get to your post-menopause second spring, and you start to feel like, "Oh, what did my teenage self want to do that I have not done yet?" So can you see that there is this really deep spiritual reawakening in menopause? It's not medical, although the medical, the hormone is really important to know. It is deeply spiritual, and that is what excites me, and I hope that all of my books that talk about this, I hope that this beautiful, positive concept, uh, lifts people's, um, mood or attitude to menopause. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's a big shift that we all need, is that, that feeling that... of, of youth and vibrancy in older age, and not just like, "This is my time to sort of give up and just waste away," which I think has- is sometimes how it's conveyed and how it feels. Um, and you had mentioned, um, hormone replacement therapy, and I think, uh, one of the things that I really struggled with is, uh, whenever I tell someone I'm in perimenopause, they're like, "Well, you're on hormones, right?" And I've decided not... I mean, I- my doctor and I decided that wasn't the best option for me, and so I know there's further exploration there. But I've really been going, like, with supplements and, you know, managing my symptoms, and some adding strength training and making sure I'm, like, exercising more. Um, and so I just, I feel like even today there's much more of an emphasis on the medical, traditional route to managing menopause as opposed to some of these more holistic ways of managing the symptoms like yoga, Ayurveda, um, acupuncture, things like that. Is there a question there? No, I guess there's not. Just like a, just a noticing. Um, so I, I like that there's, I like that there are these other options that are not necessarily resolve your hormone issue or, you know, fix your hormones, that there's this other way of approaching of this change. So this is where I think the, there's a misconception. So back when I was in perimenopause, there was no hormone replacement therapy available because of that health scare. Mm. Now there has been a revolution in the UK. I know that that has spread worldwide, especially now in the United States. And so hormone therapy is offered often as the first line of treatment. Mm-hmm. So remember, it didn't used to be. The way that I present it in menopause yoga, remembering that I have my factual journalist head on and my holistic head as well, the way that I present it is actually the way that is supported by the British Menopause Society, and what they say, which is also agreed by the International Menopause Society. They see it as holistic, so anyone listening, I'm actually drawing a big circle with my arms. You know? Uh, it's holistic, a big circle. So within that circle of support for a woman going through menopause, it will include nutrition. Nutrition, looking after hormones, bones, muscles, brain, heart. So nutrition. There will be exercise, but remembering that there are going to be specific modifications or changes that you need to make in your exercise in perimenopause that will be different at menopause, and then very different in post-menopause. So nutrition, exercise Sleep. Managing your sleep, and that's a whole other kind of subject within this because sleep is as essential to the human body, and especially to women in menopause, is as essential as food and water. Social connection, so staying connected to friends, family, social groups outside of family. And that's important too because relationships do start to break down for very good and real reasons. Or not good reasons, but very real reasons. So we've got nutrition, we've got exercise, sleep, social connection. There can be medical support in terms of hormone therapy or other kinds of medical intervention, and yoga sits within that as well in the circle. So yoga has the benefit of being able to release physically held tension. If you have inflammation in your body, it's going to help somatically stretch some of the muscles and tissues around the areas of inflammation, but doing it safely. Yoga can improve sleep, again, that essential. Yoga can reduce stress, and stress and inflammation increase in the menopause, and that's because as estrogen declines, inflammation increases. As estrogen declines, stress increases because we have more difficulties metabolizing, reducing the cortisol levels in our body so they... it hangs around for longer. So if we know that stress and inflammation increase, and we know that yoga can help reduce stress, reduce inflammation, improve your sleep, improve your digestion, then that's why it's part of that holistic healthcare package. But I would add something very special that we just talked about You mentioned the word, Jill, acceptance. That's a really important word. Going through the menopause is an opportunity to accept that we're changing. Our body is changing. Our function is changing. How we're seen in the world is changing. But also accepting ourselves, our physical body, but also who we are That's really quite deep. If we can accept and love ourselves even when we're grumpy and irritable or unkind or whatever it might be, if we can accept ourselves, then that becomes almost this liberating superpower. Mm. In traditional Chinese medicine, they say that you, as you're going through the menopause, that you need to practice in terms of your meditation acceptance of yourself and forgiveness of yourself, but also acceptance and forgiveness of others. So if we look back in our lives and we think about all the people who did us wrong, we think about episodes in our youth, our teenager womanhood, adulthood, where relationships or situations broke down, can we forgive that person not because we condone what they did, but because letting go of that attachment to that time in our life will liberate us? So it's an ex- it's an extraordinary spiritual and psychologically transformative time in your life. And what you know, Jill, through yoga, is that yoga and the yoga philosophy, the Buddhist philosophy, it teaches us that nothing is permanent. Everything is changing like that river flowing downstream. And that if we can breathe into that and accept that change is happening, then that takes away this tension, this holding, this fear, physical and emotional in us so that this will hopefully ease the passage and soften our symptoms as we're going through menopause. Yeah. It's getting rid of that fighting against, that energy that you're expending fighting against what's happening or holding that grudge against that person and allowing that to, like you said, um, liberate your- yourself instead of that even if you don't condone what happened or, you know- Yeah. And I, another part of what I love that you offer is the strength training piece, which I know you're focusing a lot on, um, in the coming months. And also you said writing a new book potentially that focuses on... or are writing a new book that focuses on this aspect of what you offer. Um, so maybe you can just talk, I know we're run- kind of running out of time, but maybe you can talk a little bit about the strength training part and how you, how you kind of guide women through that part of... 'Cause I, I know that's one thing that I've heard with justification for the hormone replacement is, well, um, there are all these things that are happening in your body. If you don't take the hormones, then all these things will break down. You'll have muscle loss, bo- your bones will fail, you know, all this stuff. Um, and obviously, I think that's, you know, probably a part of it, but there has to be a path forward of finding strength and finding balance with, if that's not an option for you or you choose not to do that. So, um, maybe you can speak a little bit to the strength training piece that you're offering. Okay. So very, very briefly before I talk more in depth about strength, it's the recognition that in perimenopause, for anyone listening, your hormones are fluctuating. They're not just fluctuating in a normal cycle of, uh, menstruation. They're flu- fluctuating every day, um, every hour in some times. And so that's going to affect your energy and inflammation, um, in your body and also affect sleep, et cetera, appetite, digestion. So in the perimenopause, yes, it's important to maintain your muscle strength, your bone density, your cardiovascular health. But on the days when you're tired, you really do need to rest. That is non-negotiable unless you want to completely burn out, end your employment, cease to function on a daily level Once you have come through the perimenopause transition of, you know, unpredictability and inflammation, you get to menopause. And menopause, the definition nowadays is so antiquated, it dates back to 1823, 1824. Menopause is not one day or even one year. That's what the doctors will tell you because that's what the books were written about, you know, in 1823. No, menopause is a transition of maybe five or even seven years where there is a sharp decline in your estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone. So of course at that stage you haven't got the unpredictable ups and downs, you've got a steep decline in hormones. And so that's when you really need to be thinking about your bone density. That's when you get the major amount of bone loss. And you may notice also that there is sarcopenia, the weakening of your muscles. Not just weakening of the muscles in your arms, and I've got sarcopenia even though I lift weights, you know? It's kind of part of aging as well. But, um, you also get the weakening of your pelvic floor, so that's going to affect all of your genitourinary symptoms, also your sexual pleasure or your sexual, uh, feeling, bladder infections, et cetera, et cetera So when you come through menopause, obviously you've got to do some strength training, bones and muscles, but again, you're having to be cautious and careful because there is still this steep decline. But when you get out of menopause, the hormones are more level. They are lower, but they are more level. And whether you're taking hormone therapy or not, hormone therapy is not enough. You need to strengthen your body. So for women who are in post-menopause, we need to increase, work harder with our strength training, resistance training. So, uh, if you could see me, uh, I'm in my living room where I often teach, and I've got a whole stack of hand weights. I've got resistance bands, um, yoga blocks, bolsters, and blankets. Now, why? Why would a strength class include bolsters and blankets? The reason is that in your post-menopause, there are going to be specific areas of your body you need to strengthen, but also specific areas of your body where there might be weakness. That means if you go into a general gym class with a bunch of 20-year-olds or 30-year-olds, the instructor won't know how to modify the strength practice for your body So I'm gonna give you a few of those. So one area will be the pelvic floor. So helping to engage the pelvic floor because the basket of muscles, Jill, as you know, uh, at the pelvic floor lift and support all of the abdominal organs and connect to the abdominal muscles that wrap around to your lower back, and we know that lumbar spine L4/5 disc impingement, deterioration in bone density, nerve compression, sciatica, this is so common in menopause and after. So if we know that, and we know that the pelvic floor is weak, we're not just going to focus on lifting arm weights or leg weights, we need to start at the core and pelvic floor. So I have specific, um, exercises that I do using bands, blocks, weights, et cetera. So that's just one, uh, uh, one condition I've mentioned. The other one, um, that you'll be very familiar with is frozen shoulder. The inflammation in the shoulder capsule at menopause, perimenopause, menopause, that can mean it's harder to lift weights or more dangerous. So you need to think about how to modify that practice or use resistance bands to stabilize around the shoulder joint Another area that we haven't talked about is balance, proprioception. So the decline in estrogen affects your ears. It affects the little tiny hairs and the liquid in your ears that helps you to be balanced upright. So you may find yourself getting dizzy, vertigo, or simply falling over. So we need to really work on our balance. And again, I won't go into lots of details, but we do that in the classes. And then the, the final part that I just want to mention is really important. We talked before about how the decline in estrogen compromises our ability to reduce cortisol, the stress hormone. Cortisol creates inflammation. Cortisol adds weight gain over time. So if you're doing an exercise practice strength training, where you're lifting your heart rate, you're moving your body, you're building your muscle strength, you think, but maybe the movement is fast, there's loud noise, there's flashing lights, the instructor's got a microphone shouting at you, you know? And I've been to many strength classes where I've even had instructors swear at me, um, to-- as a kind of motivation. Uh-huh. So what that is doing to your nervous system is increasing, increasing cortisol That's not gonna be helpful for maintaining your muscle because stress decreases, it depletes muscle and bone. So at the end of every menopause yoga strength class, we have stretching and relaxation to stretch the muscles that we've used, prevent there being any lactic acid buildup, and also to reduce that potential cortisol so that at the end of the class you feel restored, maybe even as if you've put energy back into that mitochondria battery. Yeah. That really emphasizes how important the, that type of class is for, for women. And I think about, um, I mean, I know I'm offering classes that are like that. Um, and it's not always, it's not always, um... like, I don't have a lot of people signing up for those classes 'cause I think we're just so conditioned to have a certain type of yoga class and a certain type of movement that people don't realize what an opportunity that is to, to be able to focus on. And I don't use weights in my yoga teaching 'cause I'm not... I know you've emphasized it and I've heard it from others how important it is to have experience with conducting a class with weights before just jumping in and, and offering that to people because of the risk of injury. Um, but I feel like even just the traditional yoga in term- when it's, when it's more mindful and slow-moving, and the ability for that to lower the cortisol and to still, if you're actively using your body, and, um, like I've been told about just even tensing your body or, like, pulling muscle to bone is always how I was, I was told that, and it makes sense to me. Even that action and then the relaxation can be so healing and, um, can help to encourage more strength on top of maybe some kind of- mild weight training that people are doing. Um, but just, I've just... And it just emphasizes how important that is to have those- Right things together. And I just want to add something in there. So we do need to increase our heart rate. Mm-hmm. In post-menopause, the biggest killer of women is cardiovascular disease, and that's not just in the UK, that is all over the world. The biggest killer of women post-menopause is cardiovascular disease. Now, there are many reasons for that. Don't even get me started on the medical profession. But what that means is we need to increase our heart rate, but do it safely and carefully. And I'm just gonna give your listeners a really simple practice. So if you raise your arms up to shoulder height or above, you are increasing your heart rate because your heart is having to pump blood against gravity So for instance, if you were going to do, um, Urdhva Tadasana, which is a mountain pose with your arms raised, and if you hold that pose, you don't even have to be holding weights. If you hold that pose for, say, one minute, you are going to increase your heart rate. You're going to deepen your breathing. That means more oxygen, blood, energy going around your body and to specific muscles. Let's think about Warrior 2 pose. Yeah? We think about that as a nice strong pose. But in so many yoga classes, which I love, but lovely vinyasa flow classes are good for stretching and calming the nervous system, they are not strengthening your muscles or bones. Let's just be honest here. But if you were to stand in that Warrior 2 pose with your arms raised to shoulder height and you stay for one minute, you are gonna be increasing heart, deepening breath, and gaining all of those cardiovascular benefits without having to go jogging. Yeah. Yeah. So for some of us, this is a safer, more accessible way to slowly improve our health. Does that make sense, Jill? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, and that's, um, I've noticed that transition in my own practice of instead of moving from one posture to the other, and I think that was the yoga therapy piece too, that I've always... The way I do yoga therapy sessions is to stay in the discomfort, so you stay in a posture that's uncomfortable. So that, you know, it's also that carrying over. But, um, yes, I mean, staying in Warrior 2 for any kind of time, you can clearly feel the effort, especially if you're grounding your feet, you're pulling up and belly in towards the spine, and you're really grounded and stable there And I would say less pulling belly into spine, more pelvic floor lift. Yes. Start, start that abdominal strengthening- Mm-hmm by lifting up at pelvic floor. Right. And for those of your listeners who feel, cannot feel your pelvic floor, I was one of them. I came through my perimenopause, my sarcopenia was very bad. I lost so much muscle strength. And I had to literally use a block, which is a tool I still use today, placing a block between my thighs, and I squeeze the block in chair pose. I squeeze the block as I'm going up and down in a bridge pose, and this is a really helpful way to strengthen your adductor inner thigh muscles, but also to feel the pelvic floor. So, um, so much we could talk about, Jill, and we have such a crossover in our practice, don't we? Yes. Yeah, that's, I mean, it's on purpose too, um- because we have worked together. But yes, um, so how would you- people engage with you if they wanted to? I know you provided your website at the beginning. Um, I also know I've followed you on Facebook, so you're on there. Um, how might people connect? Well, um, so it's- menopause-hyphen-yoga.com, menopause-hyphen-yoga.com. And you can find many of my courses and classes there, or you can email me. Just put Petra, P-E-T-R-A, petra@menopause-hyphen-yoga.com. And then there are the two books. So if anyone's interested in the teacher training book, you can, um, still purchase the yellow book from the Singing Dragon or, um, Amazon websites, and that one also comes with 90-minute class plans. The newer pink book, as I said, has the bite-sized yoga practices for busy people, but also yoga therapists, and it's accompanied by some beautifully filmed video classes. So you can be sure that you're practicing the breathing or the movement or restorative yoga, um, as, as intended. And then as Jill said, little secret that I shouldn't really be telling you here yet, but I have just been asked by the publishers to, um, write a book, uh, on menopause yoga for strength and longevity. So that book will be coming out next year. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. Great. Well, I, I so appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today and, um, I hope that all the information you gave, I'm sure, was really beneficial. I know I learned a lot, so thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, Jill, and I hope to see you in class sometime soon. Thank you. Yes. Bye, everyone. Thank you for joining me today during my conversation with Petra Coffey. Petra has such an array of knowledge, and it was so nice being able to learn from her today. I hope you learned more about the benefits of yoga, the history of menopause, how it's been treated historically and is treated today, both in the US and in the UK, and the human power looking at the menopause as an opportunity for a new spring, a way to bring yourself into the best you possible. Whether you choose yoga, light strength training, or something else, I hope you find a practice that fits the new you and allows you to be with yourself as you are and to gain an acceptance of this transition in your body as it is now. No one expects this to happen overnight, but with time and attention to your body, it can. If you're interested in learning more about Petra, find her online at menopause-yoga.com or on Facebook under Menopause-Yoga. She offers online classes British Summer Time, and she has two helpful books that can help guide you through your second spring. If you're local to the Finger Lakes in, Finger Lakes in Upstate New York and are looking for a class that uses some of the techniques, techniques discussed in our conversation, please reach out to me at Closed Lotus Yoga, closedlotusyt.com, and on Facebook and Instagram for a schedule of classes and sessions available. Thanks for tuning in, and stay, stay open to your truth. Till next time.