It's Donna in the Driveway

with Michael Kaufman MSW, PhD. Effective Leadership: Advocacy, respect, and elevating others through inspiration.

• Donna • Season 1 • Episode 3

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In this episode, my mentor, colleague, and friend, Dr. Michael Kaufman, MSW, reflects on his journey as a helping professional and educational and organizational leader. 

Dr. Mike has worked in psychiatric settings, schools, and clinics, with Veterans, with people with PTSD, abandoned children, and, of course, in special education, while mentoring many people along the way. His formal training in accounting, social work, and clinical psychology has led to a successful career building outstanding support services for children, adolescents, and adults, grounded in a strengths-based perspective and elevating others. 

Adding author to his list of accomplishments, “Doing good & doing well- Inspiring Helping Professionals to Become Leaders in their Organizations,” shares lessons from a 30+ year career through personal stories and lived experiences. It aims to inspire helpers to exercise the power they already possess and to pursue a fruitful, fulfilling path of professional development and organizational leadership.  

I have personally called Dr. Mike's book “A must-read for any helper who truly wants to be the change that makes a difference-you will be so inspired to step into your purpose with integrity and live the life of your dreams.” Helpers, we can do it!

May he inspire you as much as he has inspired me.

~Donna

Show Resources

References

Council on Social Work Education. (2023). 2022–2023 statistics on social work education in the United States. https://www.cswe.org/Research-Statistics/Research-Briefs-andPublications/2022-2023-Annual-Statistics-on-Social-Work-Education 

Kaufman, M. (2023). Doing Good and Doing Well: Inspiring Helping Professionals to Become Leaders in Their Organizations. Bloomsbury Publishing 

Special thanks:

Ellen for her fabulous branding and photos. If you need a photographer or graphic designer, esnapsone@gmail.com

Johnny Peacock Music for the music into/outro. Looking for a custom sound? Reach out to Johnny.  johnnypeacockmusic@gmail.com 

My cousin Gab for sharing your expertise. The best resource and expert to help pull this together. For any podcast assistance, contact gabdac@gmail.com 

Monmouth University: School of Social Work; Department of Communication (WXCM 88.9FM); and the Department of Psychology for all your support. Go Hawks

My capstone committee, and my fabulous professors and mentors, for pushing me past my comfort zone

“Team B” for your unending support.

And, to my children~ just because. 

humanUpNJ

Donna:

It's Donna in the driveway. How is everybody doing on this brand new week? I'm so excited to be back here with all of you listening, and you're having a safe commute. Today I have a very, very special guest. I am so excited to have this person in the driveway with me This is Dr. Michael Kaufman. He is a friend and a mentor and a coach and my inspiration for a very long time. I think I've known Mike for, I don't know, 15, 20 years, maybe Mike.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah. That sounds about right.

Donna:

Yeah, absolutely. Let me just turn up your mic a little bit. Let's try that again. We'll do a little mic check.

Dr. Mike:

check, check.

Donna:

Okay, I think I hear you now, Mike. I think that worked. I think that worked. Okay, I'm just gonna turn him up a little bit. You guys know I'm still kind of new at this, so just bear with Hopefully, I get this all together. Well, the reason why Dr. Michael Kaufman is in our uh in our studio today and in our in driveway is Mike has this incredible career. He has done so many things from an RA as an undergraduate at Rutgers to now a co-owner, right? A co-host.

Dr. Mike:

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Donna:

And an author.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

An author. So please, Mike, welcome to the driveway.

Dr. Mike:

Thank you. I love this driveway. It's great. It's uh very welcoming and warm. And um anytime to get, you know, an hour with you, Don, is well worth it. So it's my pleasure. So thank you so much for asking me and want me to be here. And um, you've inspired me too. A lot of, you know, hopefully we get into it today, but of why I wrote the book was a conversation that we had over one day.

Donna:

Oh, wait, you can't leave me with that cliffhanger. All right, so wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we go there, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. We didn't even take our seatbelts off yet. Um let me just give a little bit of your bio here because I every time I read it and I I look through it, and I did do a little you know, research on my own, looking at your website and So you went from a counseling coordinator to a clinical director all while starting a family.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay. When you started in 1998 with that that uh SESSI, you were director of one school, is that right?

Dr. Mike:

That's right. That's right. I ran one school, yep.

Donna:

And where did that grow to?

Dr. Mike:

It ended up growing to uh about 85 schools once I left. And um, yeah, it was amazing. The the the uh journey from one school to many was a lot of It was also you know, some heartache and a lot of growing pains and learning. And um, my favorite thing was creating leaders. And uh, you know, with each new school, is I found I've seen a great leader in a bad school. I've never seen a good leader, you know, meaning if if a great leader, that school's gonna be strong. If there's a poor leader, that school's gonna be weak. So it all came up with developing a model that would work the kids, but then also creating leadership and people that to be there, wanted to run a school, knew how to lead people, are easy to be around. And that's something I've really learned as I've gotten older is you can learn all these kinds of things and go to a million kinds of schools, but if you're not easy to be around, you're you're not gonna be a great leader. Yeah.

Donna:

And I I love because I've I've worked with you, like I've seen at your in your work capacity as well. And the thing that I love is like you have this formalized that seems all over the place, right?

Dr. Mike:

Right, right.

Speaker 2:

But it really isn't, it really blends together very well. So you got your bachelor's degree in accounting, You became a CPA.

Dr. Mike:

Yep. I didn't become a CPA. Um, I did what was interesting is I got a job. And when you when you want to become accountant, you senior get an internship. So I got an internship at Ernst ⁇ Young, which is like the firm. But I was working at the same time with people that um folks that had head injuries. It was called the Center for Cognitive Rehabilitation in New Brunswick, New Jersey. And I was weighing, okay, I can go be go work at Ernst ⁇ probably have this great career in accounting, but I wasn't about it. But I was so passionate about these people I was helping head injuries. They were unbelievable. And it was a night shift while I was going to college. I did it overnights, and I just fell in love with the clients. And I was like, to my boss, I would do this if everything life was equal, this is what I want to do. This is my passion, this is my heart. And then she goes, Well, you could get something called an and you could do this your whole life. And I totally changed course. You mentioned me being an RA, so I knew I could maybe be a director that would help pay for graduate school because I real concerned about that. How the heck would I pay for it?

Donna:

Yeah, all the students listening are gonna totally

Dr. Mike:

Yes. So being a resident director, I knew that that would help me pay and I could do something that I loved. It was a leap of faith. Um, yeah. And my mom hopefully is listening to this right now. And if she's out there, hey mom. But my mom is an artist. So she was, everybody told me I was nuts to not be an and not go that route because that's where money was. That's where I probably should have gone because I did well in it. And she was, she's an artist by trade, and she's done a than just art, but that's her heart and her passion. So I think when I told her, well, I want to be a social she was like, that's what you should do. You know, that that is um, you know, if that's what you want to do and that's where your heart is, go for it.

Donna:

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So it really is about the passion, right? Because I know you talk about that in the book, and we'll get in a minute. Because then there's there's this shift, right? So you're working as a social worker and you decided to go for PhD, but you did that in clinical psychology?

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

So tell me.

Dr. Mike:

Well, that was just the the natural lead from social work. So once I hit social work, the ground running, there was no back. So the business is a foundation. So if you think of building the house, like you, you have a strong b how you know, you gotta have a strong house. You need a that strong uh foundation before you put the the up, you know, to build the house. And business is important if you're going to want to lead and grow something. So I'm thrilled I had the business background. But after that, I was like, let me just go social work and And then I was able to start teaching, like you are. So I was teaching at Rutgers Graduate School Social Work, I loved it just to get in front of to pe you know, students, graduate students was really cool because it was people a bit older and they really wanted to be there and they were to be social workers, and it was just so much fun getting the message across. So I just wanted to go that social work psychology route. And I did find as much as I love social work, there were some people that respected psychology a little bit more. Yes. And some people that respected social work a little bit So I thought the combination of the two might make me bit more well-rounded.

Donna:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's also the different theoretical perspectives, So being a social worker and teaching in the department of like I get the same exact thing, right? And it depends upon who you speak to. It is a social worker, I mean, their values are amazing. And then you have the such great assessment and clinical skills from psychology. So if you put everything together, I think we make a very

Dr. Mike:

We do. I almost feel it's like a Xerox. Like when people you'd make a copy of something, people say, Oh, it's a Xerox. Like instead of a copy. And I think now when people are in therapy, they go, I'm And I'll go, is it really a psychologist or social worker? And they go, Oh, I'm not sure. But it's really many times more, it's social workers. Right. They're seeing licensed clinical social workers. So, you know, that field, I think everyone has started to see, wow, a social worker and a psychologist. Who's whoever's better? I don't care. They both are pretty equal. They're pretty great.

Donna:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. Being in both worlds, I agree. Um, so now you're doing all this and you've built all this and building a company, and now you're an author. love the book. The book is called Doing Good and Doing Well, Inspiring, Helping Professionals to Become Leaders in Their Organizations. So tell me, how did you get there? I mean, I I remember watching you a little bit while you were on the journey.

Speaker:

Yeah. So if you know, writing a book is like a marathon, going for a PhD. So somebody said that to me once is do you do you like a sprint or are you a marathon runner? And I'm a I love long distance running, I always have. So I'm in for the long haul. And that's what writing a book is. I would say to somebody it's a two-year process, probably a to write it, a year to work with the publisher on it, and they go back and forth with you, especially if you want to work with a publishing company. But I always just felt that the the helping professions have to offer beyond just our calling to do good and help people. That I also think that we have an ability to lead, that we're trained leaders. So when I started running the company and we got big and we up selling to private equity, I started being in the room a bunch of MBAs. And I was just, I was intimidated at first, thinking, probably better business leaders than me because they have master's in business administration, and that sounds like und all be-all. But I was starting to see that those of us that are social and psychologists are amazing uh leaders. We're we know how to compromise, we know how to actively we care, we're empathetic, but we're also really strong. And I felt corona really brought that out where people to see us as the heroes and you you know, uh nurses, social like you guys, we we couldn't stay at home during corona. We had to be out there, we had to put that mask on when we really know what was going on and go work with our clients. And um, you know, so we have the where you have toughness. So people would think, okay, you're a social worker, you're a good human resource person, but I can't see you leading making tough decisions. And I say the exact opposite. We're we make tough decisions, we make life decisions, visits. I've walked into homes where I wasn't sure I was gonna walk you know, and we we're not scared. Right. So a part of being a great leader is not being afraid of making a good decision, a bad, a strong decision, not a bad decision, but a decision that that may upset some people because you to make tough decisions sometimes. So I think we can do it as well as anybody with any degree.

Donna:

Right, right. Oh, I love that. I love that. So that I mean that's the whole basis of the book, right? To talk about all the different characteristics that you be to be a helper.

Dr. Mike:

Right.

Donna:

And the empathy, the having personality, making good decisions, being quick on your feet. Like you talked about coronavirus and and COVID. I I think my workload doubled during that time. Like staying home, that wasn't even an option. I was trying to be in as many houses as I could because people come into program anymore.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

Yeah. And setting up like um the virtual sessions and all that, like was really hard. And our nurses, right? And our hospitals and healthcare system really got pretty during that time. It was. Yeah.

Dr, Mike:

It was tough. It was tough. But um, we you know, we we had to rise the occasion and we're those people to do it. So I hope that people don't think that we're just good at soft business side, we're good, we're at the as good at the business side. And we know how to be empathetic and accountable. We know how to be strong and compassionate. And when you can be both at the same time, people respect They that resonates with them. You if you're just tough and people are scared of you, that work for a little bit. But if you've shown I care about you, I'm there for you, then when you have to give someone some tough feedback, like they've come in late for five straight days, it's a lot to do it when you've already shown that you care about They're gonna say, Well, they're not just being tough or a jerk to me. They they really want me to be at the job. So that's why they're saying this to me right now. So I feel if you put the time in with the the people that you lead, you can you can do both sides.

Donna:

Right. Absolutely, absolutely. That's that's pretty awesome. Uh, I'm really dying to get back to the part. What lunch conversation?

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, so we were having lunch, and I remember you were at an agency at the time, and I think somebody came in to run it that wasn't one of us, right? Wasn't a helper. And you and I were talking about why do they bring somebody in to run an organization that may have no, doesn't even know they do. Like they're gonna bring someone in from the pharmacy busin

Speaker:

who ran a big business to run a helping a service agency. They don't know who we are, they don't know how to lead us, they don't know what we've done, but they think they're gonna get results because they got good financial results somewhere. And I think I mentioned to you, well, why wouldn't you, Donna, throw your hat in the ring to run it? And I remember, you know, we had a great conversation of it it, and and I just saw your wheels turning of, yeah, like I just I felt you could run this organization listening to you. You had the answers, you knew what it needed, you knew what to be done, you cared about the clients so much, but you equally cared about the staff around you. So I was like, why is somebody not looking to you do it, haven't you said, Why am I not running this agency? Right. And then I thought there's some there's a lot of people like me and you out there that just may need a push.

Donna:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, because I think that's part of it, right? Being in a helping profession, we're not exactly like

Dr. Mike:

Right.

Donna:

Right? Why do you think that is? Why do you think that, you know, social workers, nurses, even, why do you think that that the financial model, I guess, or that business side?

Dr. Mike:

Well, you're you are right. The the the salaries in our field aren't as high. So I don't know if that that's why we're not maybe taken as as we should. Or is it, you know, I always like to look inward and at and to say, as a social worker, all we're taught to do is for our clients. Be there for your clients. I remember when I started, I would take my clients to social service agencies, and I saw how people looked at them and to them, and it really just upset me. Like they just didn't treat them with the kind of respect they deserved. And I just feel that, you know, but we we put them up and say we can be there for you, we can help you. But we're so busy advocating for our clients, and we for ourselves the same way we advocate for our clients. So I do think it's some of that that we accept, okay, this is a calling. I wanted to do good, I wanted to help you, and I'm not that much money. So maybe I shouldn't, you know, maybe that's what my life's is about. It's it's just about to help someone. It's not about necessarily making a nice salary, too. And then you get older and you have kids looking you in the and they want clothes, they want sneakers. Like when you have a kid's like three months later, their don't fit.

Donna:

You know, they want to eat every once in a while. (said

Dr. Mike:

They want to eat every once in a while, and um, food isn't nothing's cheap. So why can't we make a good salary too? So I that's what but I I think you know, you start advocating for yourself. And and I think what I what works for me, whenever I wanted motivate somebody, I've always said, like, so a social I had who was in one of my schools, and I said to her, she I don't want to give up my caseload, so I don't want to run the school. And I just saw she would be an amazing leader. And I go, Well, what if I tell you you have a caseload now? I go, what's your caseload? She goes, uh, 20, 25 kids, and I love working with them. So I'm like, well, how many kids are in the school? This is a private special education school. She says, 100. I said, well, then now the whole do you want the whole caseload to be a hundred instead of 25? You said you want to make a difference. She goes, Oh, wow. I never looked at it that way. And do you want the caseload to be the staff that you them? Help them grow, help them go from a teaching assistant to a a teacher to a supervisor, a supervisor to a principal. Like watching people grow in their jobs is such a joy. It's so much fun. And just changing the the playing field and and letting that social worker or psychologist know that you just caseload if you leadership. Look at it like that first.

Donna:

Right. That is a great reframe. That is an amazing reframe because that's exactly what it is.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

I remember when I first got into teaching, I hesitated for about a year, and a friend of mine said, "Well, you're trying to build good clinicians through supervision, but you can only see

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

"Like, why don't you do something else? Like you have this opportunity, go for it." That's how teaching to begin with, because we have to expand our reach,

Dr. Mike:

And why I love that you're teaching college here at this great university that we're sitting at right now is we if I'm a and I see you, you know, I I've a lot of my other teachers, I remember Economics 101 and 102. I learned a lot and I liked it. But the teacher up there didn't look wasn't passionate and and fun. When you get up there, I know I guarantee you that that's how you teach. And there's got to be people out there that was like, I be a social worker? I don't know, I'm thinking of social media, I'm thinking of And you might light that fire in them. So it's like, thank God you did. So you you the more we take a chance, there's gonna be more taking chances.

Donna:

Right. And that's the modeling, right? Like to be a good leader, you also have to be that leader. You have to be the thing, you have to show people that you can do it. So we're paving the way for other people that follow.

Dr. Mike:

Exactly, exactly.

Donna:

And hopefully surpass us.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, hopefully surpass us. And that's what you want. That's a great...I'm happy you said that. Like, one thing about leadership that I think us in the professions will do that others won't is I there was a that I now work with now. He was at the company SESI when I was there, and I saw that he was better than me. And I and I embraced it. I loved it. I saw this guy could be way better. He was younger, so maybe he had to work some things out, but I was like, this guy's gonna be way better than I'm gonna I am now. And he is way better. And I loved it, but I promoted, I wanted to see that. I didn't hold it back. And you do see that in some other agencies, or you do see in some other leaders where you're intimidated by someone may be more talented than you instead of looking at it like, wow, I can I noticed this person, I noticed they're great before they realized that they were great. And if you can give that gift to somebody, it's it helps your organization. Why would you hold this person back? Absolutely. Why would you not raise them, lift them? They're gonna make you look good. And if you're you and you got to work on those insecurities. So I I was an insecure leader and I had to work on those.

Donna:

Were you an insecure leader? I can't even imagine that.

Dr. Mike:

Oh my God, so insecure. If you, oh God, anyone who looked at me sideways. So if I was leading 100 people and 99 told me I was great, one said, eh, you're okay. Uh that one person is all I would focus on. What did I do? Did I look at them sideways? Did I um am I, you know, I don't know, did I have mustard on my shirt?(laughing) What did I do when I led this meeting? So I'm gonna focus on the one negative. And it it's something I call of taming your demons. And mine was uh you get defensive as a leader. So I had to work on that. So if you gave me feedback of something that I was doing that wasn't great, I might not respond well. And then you're never gonna tell me something ever again. So I worked at if you come in, if you have the guts, if I'm leader to tell me something I'm not doing great, like to tell me more, what can I do better? Listen, follow up with them. It's it's a gift you you're giving them because you're to them and you're but it's the biggest gift you give because you're never gonna change or or become who you want to be until you can let that go. I had to tame that and get that under control. Um and I still do, I still work on it, I still, it's still You just I've suppressed it, but it's still you know, hiding out somewhere.

Donna:

Yeah, it's like, oh, I didn't like when you did XYZ and it's like That twinge in your body.

Dr. Mike:

You feel it, you feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donna:

I tell my students all the time, I'm like, what did you think that? How was give me feedback, give me feedback? And I know there's like those power dynamics, right? So nobody wants to speak up. And I'm like, I will give you extra credit. Like tell me the truth because I only become better when I that feedback. I need to know what's working, what's not working. Otherwise, if nobody tells me, I just keep doing the same thing and perhaps making the same mistakes, right?

Dr. Mike:

Yep.

Donna:

You want to make sure that we we keep ourselves in check.

Dr. Mike:

And when I would when I lead people, I go to their office to have any type of discussion that could be a little because that's their office, that's their space, they're and control. So I'm sitting in that chair in front of the desk. They're behind their desk. So I want them to feel more powerful than than not. Like if you summon someone to your office and they sit in this little chair and you're behind a desk. That feels so ominous. So no matter what, I would always have a little side table in my office if we're gonna talk. Let's sit there, let's go out to eat. So nobody comes in. We're, you know, looking at our phones. Like when I started, there was no phone to look at, but there was people outside the glass window knocking that wanted attention. So, you know, take somebody out to eat, um, or go to or someplace they feel safe or in control.

Donna:

I love that. You're even changing the environment. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. And we're back with Dr. Mike talking about his book. Can you please describe why you wrote your book, Doing Good and Doing Well?

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, so I wrote it, it was it was a bucket list, you know, whole movie "Bucket List", I love that movie. And um, it was just something I always wanted to do in as you can relate to, right? When you teach at a college level, you know, a lot of around you wrote a book, and I just wanted something real that could capture the message I'm trying to get out. So when I was running SESI, I would do something we would these business unit meetings, and we'd bring all our and human resources and CFOs and things. So we had about 120 people, and I would do these I would bring in movies, I'd bring in music, I'd bring in I would try to do all kinds of things to get people leadership and creating these incredible results for the that we were working with. And I had all these things in my mind that were just sitting there, and I didn't know what to do with them. So I'm like, well, let's put it all down in a book. And um, my sister, who is an editor, I have to give her a out because if she didn't help me, there's no way the book happen because she's a writer. So she brought all that excellence to me, that diligence to And what she recommended is Mike, where do you want to go? And I think when I told her the title, Doing Good and Doing that then she got excited about it too because she was like, Wow, that's really cool. Good. And then I think I think it was her idea to do a table of So, like in our country, there's you know 10 chapters. So I came up with 10 different ideas. So once I had that table of contents, I knew it was going to happen. Okay. Um, and then I, you know, so I you wrote a chapter and then reach out to a publisher to say, is there any interest, Because I really wanted a publisher. Self-publishing is amazing. I nothing against it. I think it's incredible to do it, but I just thought I wanted behind me if I ever wanted to use it for a college Right. So somebody could say, because if you just write a book on own, you could put anything pretty much down. But with a publisher, you know they're going to do their own uh testing and make sure that this book is is good and and is solid. So I I really wanted that behind me.

Donna:

Right. So you used uh Roman and Littlefield.

Speaker:

Yes, Roman and Littlefield. They've been, I think they've been purchased by Bloomsbury so it's under Bloomsbury, but it was definitely Roman and which I felt was had an academic presence and a uh type of a book kind of presence. And a CEO of another company that did something similar wrote a book with Roman and Littlefield, and he recommended it to me, which I thought was so cool of him. He wrote a book and he's like, Mike, I think you have to say. So, you know, if you ever want me to do an introduction or let you know who you know the the lead publisher is over there, I'll tell you that.

Donna:

Oh, awesome. Well, you definitely have a lot to say. I had the pleasure of doing an advanced reading of the book. And uh I let me just read you what I wrote in my um let's see. I called it the "must-read for any helper who truly wants to be the change that makes a difference. You will be so inspired to step into your purpose with

Dr. Mike:

I love that. And of course, it's on the sleeve of the book, but I really you to read it because I felt you had both sides. You had the helping side, but you also have this leadership and and this desire to always grow and expand. Like you're you're constantly um challenging yourself. And that's the kind of person I really wanted to read it get their buy-in. And I also knew you would take it seriously, which I really Like if somebody asks you to do something, you're gonna do it to the Nth degree. So I knew you'd actually read it and not skim it.

Donna:

And reread it and reread it.

Dr. Mike:

And um, and yet you would give it your all. And and and I, you know, forever in your debt for that. Thank you.

Donna:

Oh no, I'm I'm in your debt for actually writing it. I I buy this book and send it to my supervisees. So anybody that comes into business with me, anybody that's my my care in terms of like clinical supervision or whatever, I always make them read the book. They have to read the book.

Dr. Mike:

Oh, thank you so much.

Donna:

Yeah, no, it's it's amazing. It's it's uh to me like a step-by-step guide of inspiration of have this inside of you". What is your favorite message that comes out of it?

Dr. Mike:

My favorite message, I think, that comes out of it is you you were you're an amazing person to be in this field. You're wonderful. You you've you've given your life to this calling of helping people, like that's what you chose. You could have chosen so many other fields, like AI right now is so exciting, and um, technology is so exciting, expanding. But we picked the oldest profession in the world. Like, let's roll up our sleeves and let's help somebody. So I wanted to say you're wonderful, who you are, as you are. You do not need to lead, you do not need to step up and do So I want to acknowledge that. And I also want to acknowledge the skill set of a helper. And I do think this world needs more uh leaders of the helping professions. Not to get political at all, but to think of if you thought a social worker or a psychologist or a nurse as a you think that they would be combative or do you think they try to bring both all the sides together? I think they try to bring the sides together. And I think they would see value in both sides. They would truly listen to somebody who had a differing view than them and wouldn't ridicule them or try to make you bad just because you have a different thought than somebody So I think I would love to see more of us, not just leading but in politics, in science, it all across the board. I just feel it'll be a kinder, gentler place, but stuff's gonna get done. So if if you don't think a social worker gets stuff done, we get stuff done on low budgets, too, right? So we know how to get something done for five bucks that somebody else would get done for a hundred. You know, we can get the we're getting the job done.

Donna:

Right, we're getting the job done. And we probably work a little overtime to get it done, but we do it without feeling that it's like a chore.

Dr. Mike:

Exactly.

Donna:

We just love doing it.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, I love we all love Malcolm Gladwell, the 10,000 hours. I I say a social worker helping professional, we have our hours.(both laughing) We've doubled the 10,000 hours, you know. So we we've we've put in the time, you're right, overtime. We've Saturdays, uh, we've we've done it all.

Donna:

Right, exactly, exactly. Uh I took another quote from the book. You you actually wrote, "you are already on the path if you're in a helping profession".

Dr. Mike:

That's right. That's right, because these are natural skills, right? So if you're a helping person, what your friends probably to you when you were growing up. You're sitting there, like, especially being a guy, a lot guys we we didn't talk as much, or it's not as cool to Like when I was growing up, that was messaging. It's so silly, right? To think about now. But I just found that my guy friends would start talking to about stuff. They would start telling me their problems. They would Were you with a vault? What's that? Yeah, and I kept secrets and I don't judge. That's one thing my friends still love about me is that judge. I just listen. And I just found that that I don't know. I uh people just started talking to me and sharing really important things. And I wouldn't give advice. I would just listen and sort of guide you, try to ask that help you to make your own right decision. Right. And that's what you need to do. Um, and I used it. So our middle kid, she she was gonna pick between Rutgers and Tampa to go to college, right? Okay. And do I want her closer to home?

Donna:

Especially being an alumni.

Dr. Mike:

I'll never forget it was signing day, and she came to me and said, Should I do Rutgers? Should I do Tampa? And inside I was like, Of course I want you to do Rutgers, but I was like, Well, what do you want? Where where do you want to go? If I didn't have this training, I would have said, Are you Go Rutgers, you're close to home, you could do laundry, you all this and that.(laughing) But I asked questions and she said, Oh my god, a no-brainer. It's Tampa. That's what I want. And I was like, When that's where you should go. But if I didn't have this training, I would have pushed her to do something she did not want to do.

Donna:

Right. Well, that's gonna go back to the story that you told earlier when somebody's giving you feedback, right? And you're getting that ego hit, that in itself is an ego hit, it? Yes. Right when you're when you're trying to send your child off like to this other, this other state and far, far away, like biting tongue and dying a little bit inside.

Dr. Mike:

Dying a little bit inside, but it she had to make her own And you the thing is, is when you make decisions for people, either they then rely on you or they're mad at you that you them down a wrong path. So relying on you can feel good, like, oh God, I need you. You're my only person who can make a decision, but that's not what we are. If that's what we're doing, we're we're doing the wrong We're supposed to be helping you and making your decision better and better. And that's what we do in leadership is I don't want to tell what to do. I've we've thrown the vision or the mission of the company to you. Now you I've given you a position of leadership. I'm not gonna micromanage you. I want you to now you make it. And if it seems so off, of course I'm gonna jump in, you know, and say, like, let's let's try to steer a different way. But usually people make great decisions. When you've trained them and you've you've believed in them they're now a leader, they're gonna make the right them and for for your organization.

Donna:

Okay. All right. So tell me, you were talking about like home visits earlier, and I think that I want to go back to that because to me, being a leader is a person who's actually doing as well, right? Yes. When you bring in somebody that's not a not a helper, not a not a nurse, not whatever, um, and they're a business person, see it from a different point of view. So I think that you had boots on the ground for so long and still do.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, yeah.

Donna:

Still do, because I know that's one of your favorite things. But tell me about one time that you were like really challenged going into a house that you may have brought that experience your leadership style now.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah. So I went into a house once, a student wasn't coming to It was in a tough neighborhood. I showed up at the house, and the mother didn't really want me to be there because she wanted her child to be home and not to school. But I was the social worker, so I needed to go into the to um, you know, make sure why are you not coming to school? The mother had a knife in her hand and was holding it, and it was like a steak knife, and she seemed a little unhinged, she was getting more fiery and more fiery talking to me and waving the knife at me. She wasn't really mad at me, but I was just in front of her. And I was quite distant. Yeah, and and I just tried to diffuse the situation and try to let her know, hey, I'm just I I I care about your your kid I want to make this, you know, work. And I'm like, wow, you have such a great knife set. Like, you know, that's really neat. Like, are you know, were you eating, you know, were you got you guys having steak tonight? And then she's we started talking about knives and she put it down and we she was calm and we could breathe. And we got back to just and but I got to see the family And that's what's so great about doing a home visit, is you get to see. I remember I did a home visit once where kids said my room's as big as a closet. And I was like, okay, it's a small room. I went. He lived in the closet in the room. He had a little mattress on the bottom of a closet where most people put their clothes. and then you ask, like, how that helps at work is that you to understand the people that you're leading. Who are they? Where do they come from? What are their motivations? Your motivations is to get great results for your busi... your company and for your clients that you're serving. But what's their motivation? Where did they come from? Who are they? Learn who they are. Ask them about their family. Are you married? Are you not? Do you have kids? What are what you what are your kids' names? And really care. And what, you know, where do you come from? Where are you? It's not prying. It's just wanting to know who who the person is. And the more they share, you get to understand them. And they'll tell you, oh gosh, I grew up, you know, you could have somebody that's such a high achiever, and they'll tell you know, I grew up without anything. And I didn't have a mom, I didn't have a dad. I I I I brought myself up by bootstraps. And you know that person has a lot of pride. So you want to lead understanding their pride. So you gotta really try to understand the full situation. And when you do, any one person is always a great person when you un uh take everything out and you really, really get to them. And I say that about the kids we work with. Yes, they're tough, but if you really sit down with one of you'll see they have a story. Even if their behaviors and their actions aren't great, that doesn't mean they're not great.

Donna:

Right. I think you're really you're hitting it right on the head with a strength-based perspective, right? Yes. Like we see people, but we don't see behavior, we don't see we don't see because sometimes there is no choice. Sometimes people have no choice.

Dr. Mike:

Exactly.

Donna:

Like that kiddo who was sleeping in the closet had to sleep closet. We sometimes have to make good with what we have and whatever we have, right?

Dr. Mike:

Yes.

Donna:

But it's not about being"bad".

Dr. Mike:

No.

Donna:

It's about what is your strength and how can we build it up. And I think that that's that thread, the golden thread for you.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah.

Donna:

From being a clinician to now being this amazing, amazing mentor to so many people. And I know one of your mentees has been a mentor of mentee for like ever.

Dr. Mike:

Yes, yeah. He's like family now, so yeah, yeah, it's it's great. It's it's it's amazing to um to work with with people and and to just it there's nothing better. If everybody just picked somebody to mentor or to work with, think of how great our world would be.

Donna:

Yeah.

Dr. Mike:

If you if every all you have to do is pick one. So it feels daunting when you look at like I I I don't know if that was as eye-opening to everyone it was to me that 40 people were on um food stamps. I didn't realize that until recently we all learned that out of eight people.

Donna:

Right.

Dr. Mike:

So um it that it's there's a there's a lot of us out there that that that could use that helping hand. So if you look at that 40 million people, that sounds right? I'm gonna make a difference with 40 million people. It overnight nobody is. But if the other 260 million picked one person and we them, right, we'd be we could solve it pretty quickly. But um, you know, so it it one person at a time is true.

Donna:

Yeah, one person at a time, and it causes that ripple effect, Yes. So I just want to talk about chapter two for a second, because know, human rights aspect here, and I just want to talk about rights, and women's equity. So there was uh the women's empowerment principles, which was in 2010 by UN Women and the UN Global Compact. It's grounded in the fact that businesses have a stake in and responsibility for gender equality and women's empowerment.

Dr. Mike:

Yep.

Donna:

So there's seven principles that it's guided by, but I just want to give you some of the research that I did. I mean, the book is it was just published eight years last a year and a half ago.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, gosh, the time flies. It's like almost two years ago.

Donna:

Oh my gosh, almost two years ago already. Yeah. But I just checked like into gender data.

Dr. Mike:

Yep.

Donna:

Right? So I saw I looked at um according to Pew Research Center, about three-quarters, 77% of teachers are women.

Dr. Mike:

Yes.

Donna:

Social workers, according to the CSWE. 83.9% of students were female in the BSW program. In the MSW program, it was 83.4%. And according to the Nurses American Association for Colleges, their fact sheet, which just came out in April 2024, um, 88% of RNs in the workforce are women. So back to the WEP for a second. There are seven principles that guide um this particular transparency, community, safety, training and learning, and And honestly, knowing you for so long, like I know you have hit on all of these things in your personal life, in your career, now in your book. So, first of all, did you know you were doing that? Did you know you were lifting women up? Because chapter two really calls out the glass ceiling that under sometimes.

Dr. Mike:

Yeah, I felt it had to be acknowledged in the book, and I was it's a it's an interesting line to walk because as a guy it, I wanted to make sure that it was done in the right way it came across the way that it should. But in these fields that, as you just perfectly laid out that are female dominated, there should be way more organizations. And I have to be honest, as a male in the social work field, you were absolutely right. When I went for my MSW, it even felt like there was more than 84% to 16%. And I felt the advantage to that in a field that's with where women should have the advantage. I remember an internship came up to work at the VA hospital Lyons, New Jersey, and I was going to do groups with POWs World War I and also a support group for PTSD for Vietnam. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. But neither here nor there on that is that I got it because I was the only male really that it was, I don't remember, and and I guess the VA hospital wanted a male, but it it fair. So this whole thing about the some privilege and stuff, it's there. And I don't think it's that we can acknowledge it. So as men, we have to say this field uh is mainly women. Women are are incredible leaders, the best leaders by far. Um, you know, so why are they not more leaders? I remember my mom told me this great line who's a feminist. My mom, when she was young, she goes, "Mike, you know, gonna hear your whole life that men are and women are equal, and it's just not true." And I'm like, "Really, mom?" It's true." She goes, "Oh no, women are far superior!" (both you know, that's so that's where I came from, right? Hearing that message. Um, and and it's and it's res, it's it's just stuck with me. I had two sisters who are very strong women who, you know, me you're gonna be the guy that, like, if they ever went on a bad date, they're like, you're never gonna be that guy, you you're gonna be the guy that somebody wants to date. So they were, you know, beat me over the head to be a better person at the same time. Yeah.

Donna:

I always joke around and say, like, you're my son, who's also by women in his life, right? Like, yeah, absolutely. It's definitely a different uh kind of upbringing. All right, is there anything you want to share about your book or your experience? Or...

Dr. Mike:

Um, you know, just if if if I can share anything, is pick you're passionate about. Everybody wants, uh it's daunting right now to think about a house, right? I don't know why this is on my mind because I'm surrounded by a lot of young people. And when we were grown up, it's not we always knew houses were expensive, right? But we didn't realize we never thought I'm never going to own a house in our 20s. We thought we would. So a lot of people are thinking of being rich right now, or do I get money? Because you want to buy that house, you want to go on a everything is so expensive right now. But I don't think the money will come if you the passion there first. Do what you love and the money will come. I think Oprah said that once. And I do believe that. So if it's something you're passionate about, and if what passionate about is being an entrepreneur for something that's gonna make you a billionaire, so be it. You're passionate about it. But go for that and then see what you how you can monetize for yourself. And this was a passion of mine. When I was a young kid, I volunteered. I um, you know, I remember it the the race for the cure. I was Bart Simpson in the walk for cancer. I mean, I love doing this stuff. It was what I wanted to do. So I was able to get a job doing something I was passionate Right. Like I always say to somebody, I would love to be the for the New York Jets, don't have the talent, would love to a lead singer for a metal band, can't sing.(laughing) What I wanted to be a social worker, I can do So I, hey, one out of three ain't bad.

Donna:

Well, I think that's the best part. That's the best part. All right, so I'm gonna go off of uh the book for a minute. I'm gonna ask you a personal question.

Dr. Mike:

Sure.

Donna:

A couple of things that I don't know about you. I know it's in the book, but our listeners haven't read the book yet. What's your favorite quote?

Speaker:

Oh, "we make a living by what we get, we make a life by what give" by Winston Churchill.

Donna:

Love it.

Dr. Mike:

quote. Yes, I it and it sort of goes with what I just said. Yeah. Absolutely. We make a life by what we give. That's you know, nobody is ever on their deathbed saying I have worked more. They're not on the deathbed saying I I sh you know, have spent more time with the people I loved, I should have with my family more. That's what people regret in those moments. Um, so your life is built on those people around you. Give time to them, love them. Um, you know, you're gonna need them one day too, but that's not the reason, but the only reason. But just, you know, be there for those those those people. That that's what life is all about. And you know, again, find something you love, but be do it balance.

Donna:

Right.

Dr. Mike:

Um, if it's exercise that floats your boat, if it's going to church or temple that float, whatever it may be, do what passionate about as well. Like, like you, you've picked a million different passions go with with you know careers that you've done.

Donna:

Right. Yeah. Well, I have a very good mentor that that told me to uh just yes every now and again and lean into the uncomfortable, and would be Dr. Mike sitting across from me. So this is uh like a little inside joke between the two of us, I have been trying to encourage him to do something for a time. So when is the TED Talk?

Dr. Mike:

Oh, the TED Talk. I'm so happy you said that. So I get these things on LinkedIn and I don't know if they're real, like I can help you do a TEDx talk, right? Because TEDx is way, I heard, easier than a full TED talk get, but I really would love to do one because they're quick, they're fast, you could bring your personality to it. So I really that thank you for saying that. Actually, you just did me a favor. I really want to try to do it, and I think it would be uh like such a challenge when you said take yourself out of the zone. So I have I haven't been out of my comfort zone in a little so it's time to get to do that again. So thank you. I'm going to pursue it. All right, yes, thank you.

Donna:

(clapping) All right, anybody out there? Let's uh get Mike to uh do the Ted the TED talk because I've at him for a long time.

Dr. Mike:

Which I really appreciate.

Donna:

Yeah, yeah, we encourage each other. It's a bi-directional experience, isn't it? Right, right. I always tell my students that. Mike, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you in The Thank you so much for your time. and for being here. Hopefully, maybe I'll come back again.

Dr. Mike:

I would because it went so fast. That's an hour. Geez, it's probably five minutes.

Donna:

Yeah I can't even believe it. How can um our listeners find you?

Dr. Mike:

So I do have a website, Michael L Kauffman.com, and you can of the books on there and all the other uh podcasts and radio shows and things I've done are on there too, which I'm gonna be thrilled to add this to it. Um so you can find me there and and hopefully um, you see me at a conference presenting or something. And if you do, come over and say hi.

Donna:

Okay, I would love to get you to teach here. Whoever's listening from the DSW program, let's get him in? Uh, this is uh Dr. Michael Kaufman 'Doing Good and Doing Well: Inspiring, helping professionals to become leaders in their organizations'. Mike, you have been an amazing guest, an amazing friend, amazing mentor. And I owe all of everything that I'm walking to you. So thank you so much for being here and everybody else. Thank you for listening. I hope you have a great week. And I'm gonna play you out the last five minutes with some of favorite songs. So enjoy everyone.

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