Episode #006: The Mindset of a Warrior (Adisa Bakari)

🎙️ Negotiation Warriors – Episode #006: The Mindset of a Warrior with Adisa Bakari

What does it truly mean to be a Negotiation Warrior—not just in deals, but in life?

In this episode of Negotiation Warriors, I sit down with Adisa Bakari, Founder & CEO of The Sports & Entertainment Group (TSEG), one of the most respected and successful agencies in professional football. With over two decades as an NFLPA-certified agent, Adisa has built a reputation as a fierce advocate, mentor, and leader for elite athletes on and off the field.

But this conversation goes far beyond contracts.

We go inside the mindset, mission, and purpose that drive one of the most unique approaches to representation in sports.

We dive into:

• The journey from athlete to agent—and building an agency from the ground up
 • The mindset required to succeed in one of the most competitive industries in sports
 • Why representation is about more than contracts—it’s about legacy, leadership, and impact
 • The responsibility of guiding athletes to create generational wealth
 • The importance of truth, discipline, and accountability in negotiation
 • The role of history, perspective, and education in shaping decision-making
 • Why the greatest battle a negotiator faces is often internal

Adisa shares powerful insights on mentorship, purpose, and what it means to truly serve clients—not just as an agent, but as a leader in their lives.

This episode is a masterclass in mindset, mission, and the deeper meaning behind negotiation.

If you want to understand what separates good negotiators from true warriors—this is a must-listen.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When you hear the word warrior, it connotes war, it connotes a battle, but inherent in that notion is the foe being something external. But the biggest enemy we fight every day is the one we see in the morning when we're brushing our teeth. The biggest enemy our clients have is the enemy within. We talk about one principle over and over again, Cliff, and it's the power of the mind, right? That your thoughts dictate how you feel. And how you feel influences heavily how you move. So to put it differently, my thoughts control my emotions. My emotions dictate my actions. But here's the kicker. I get to choose my thoughts. I get to control what I think about.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Welcome to Negotiation Warriors. I am Cliff Stein, and I am on a never-ending quest to learn what it takes to be a great negotiator. In every episode, I will sit down with some of the greatest negotiators in professional sport who will share insights, knowledge, and draw upon their real-life negotiations.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Negotiation Warriors is sponsored by Front Office 360 Premium Management Software. To find out how we are helping college athletic programs, go to Frontoffice360.com to schedule a demo. Welcome back to Negotiation Warriors, the podcast that features conversations with the greatest negotiators in professional sports. I am your host, Cliff Stein. Our next guest is someone I consider a colleague and friend, someone I had the pleasure of negotiating with and learning from during my career as a front-off executive with the Chicago Bears. Adisa Bakari is the founder and CEO of the Sports and Entertainment Group, a Washington, D.C. based sports agency representing elite NFL talent. TSEG is the largest black-owned sports agency in professional football and one of the largest agencies in general. Ediz has been an NFL PA certified contract advisor for over two decades. Over the course of his career, he's represented players such as Maurice Jones Drew, Matt Forte, Tyrod Taller, Stefan Diggs, Le'Veon Bell, and many others. And he's built a reputation as a fierce advocate for athletes both on and off the field. Beyond negotiations and in his role as an agent, he's also been a strong voice for young athletes, both as a mentor and role model, including expanding opportunities for players coming out of historically black colleges and universities, and helping athletes understand their value in the business of sports. Today, we're going to go inside the mind of a strong negotiator, a businessman, a family man, and someone who has proven a mindset that is required to succeed in one of the most difficult and competitive businesses in sports. Adisa, my friend, former colleague, welcome to Negotiation Warriors. Appreciate it, Cliff. Thanks for having me. Look forward to this conversation. Great to have you. You know, a great place to start is how you even got into sports. People will be very interested. You were an athlete. I know you went to Delaware State. You went to law school in Wisconsin. But expand. Tell us how you got into this business.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

No, like many, yeah. Grew up, you know, athletics were a big part of my upbringing as a child. Uh, played in youth sports. Football was actually my second sport. The first sport I ever played organized was baseball. Uh, struck out three times at the plate. And then I pivoted. No, I started, I fell in love with football at a young age, being from the nation's capital, growing up in the 80s. Of course, the Washington football team at the time, quarterbacked by the Doug Williams of the world, Mark Richmonds of the world, was hard not to be a football fan. I started playing as a youth, fell in love with the sport, had dreams and aspirations of playing professionally one day. Uh I go off to Delaware State. And that first practice, I realized that those dreams of playing professionally would not material. I was not as good a player as I thought I was coming into college. By the time my junior year, I knew that this would probably be the last stint of playing the game, but I wanted to still be involved in the game as a professional. But I also, by this time in life, I wanted my life to have a little bit greater meaning. I wanted my vocation, my career to be more than just a source for earning money. I wanted to have an impact, and I wanted to be able to impact other community from which I come. And so my mentor and I would have conversations about the type of law that I would practice. I always knew, Cliff, that I would be a lawyer. My grandmother said as much since I can remember that, boy, you're gonna be a lawyer one day. I was the last of three and thus got away with a lot of mouthing off and stuff. And so, because of my loquaciousness, they said, You're gonna be a lawyer in my family again. So I knew I was going to law school, just didn't know the type of law I would eventually practice. But in meeting uh in undergrad with my then mentor, we talked about the ways in which law could impact the community, the African-American community most notably, that could be a source for positive change. And the other thing is I grew up, you know, very meager economic, financial beginnings, and I did not ever want to experience that again. So two things to be blunt. I wanted to have a purposeful, uh, purposeful, you know, driven kind of career, and I did not want to be poor. And so my mentor challenged me and said, okay, where can you where can you fulfill both goals and still have a connection to football? And I said, Okay, I'll I'll represent football players. And I'll help try to navigate, help these young men navigate their career such that they can truly create transformational wealth. They can truly create generational wealth. And at that point, following my junior year, I hung up the cleats and did what I needed to do to position myself for law school and got to the University of Wisconsin, tried to start an agency as a first-year law student, but to no avail, of course. But no, that that had been my mission since since graduating undergrad, to build a sports practice, a sports agency, and to help young men not only have successful careers on the field, but to have legacy lives, lives that leave a real legacy away from the field. And uh that's still our still our mission.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Wow, so you knew in law school that you wanted to be an agent and you when you were in Madison, Wisconsin, but you didn't go right into being an agent, right? You were you're also a a a lawyer who had a successful practice as a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, so I chose the University of Wisconsin largely because then a professor by the name of Ed Garvey was there. Uh he was on his final years. I think he was emeritus at the time, but he was the first lawyer for the NFLPA. He helped to uh negotiate the first collective bargaining agreement. Gene Upshaw was the president, and Ed Garvey was general counsel for the then association. So I followed that track to Wisconsin, but I did well enough in Wisconsin where law firms, large law firms recruited me. Before jumping right into the sports world, I thought it would be good training to get some corporate training, corporate experience. And so I joined a large firm by the name of Dal Lonis and Albertson. Uh, and I was fortuitously placed in the executive compensation division of the firm, where I was negotiating uh cash and equity-based compensation arrangements for traditional corporate executives. That served as a really, really good training ground for what I ended up doing. So after about four years in the firm, I went to management and I was I was unapologetic and I was not shy. Uh and I much of this had to do with my naivete more than anything else, but I was not shy about expressing what my professional goals were. And so the firm knew that I had this passion for sports, that I wanted to at some point uh delve into it. And so after about four years of practicing law on the firm, um, I went in to resign to issue my two weeks' notice. And they said, Why, good young lawyer, you're you're kind of matriculating on the path toward partnership and all this. And I'm like, that's great, but I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to, as I've always said, I want to build a sports practice. So the firm said, look, rather than let a good lawyer leave, let's see if you can build this practice here. Large law firms allocate a certain number of required billable hours to its lawyers. And this is how the business model of a law firm works. And so back then, my annual billable requirement was 2,000 hours per year. And the firm said, okay, take 200 of those hours and dedicate to building a practice. And the first year, we signed nine guys, nine NFL prospects, and the rest was kind of history.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Well, and so when at the time you were, you know, trying to resign or make that transition, had you already started recruiting players? Did you know you were gonna get a client, or did you just literally start from scratch?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Um, we started from scratch, definitely knew I was eventually get a player. I just didn't know from where and didn't know who. I was focused solely on the what, right? And so, yes, I had probably in 2000, so what's that, 26 years roughly, I um started being out on the road, going to college games, understanding the landscape. Um when once I get certified a couple years after that, then I go full bore. And so the story went like this that I got to so that year I go in and resign, they say, hey, build it here. I get to December of that year, and I have a choice to make. I was close to my new threshold, billable requirement threshold of $1,800, right? Because again, two had been allocated for this entrepreneurial endeavor that I had set out to achieve. So I was maybe a little bit short of the 1800, but I had no pro prospects. And I remember having to make a choice. I can hit the 1800. Fern had large institutional clients for which I could easily, you know, get to that, excuse me, 1800 now threshold. But in doing that, I would not secure any NFL prospects. I would still have to stay in the office and work the entire month of December to hit it. But at the time, you recall there were a bunch of All-Star games played in the state of Alabama, blue game, blue gray game. There was the gridiron classic that was then played in Orlando, et cetera, et cetera. So I literally, uh the month of December, um I got on the plane, personal credit card, and Yolanda Adams believe CD. And I was driving in the back roads of Alabama, uh, going to these random all-star college, all-star games in hopes that somebody, some parent, some player would give me an audience. And I was convinced that they simply listened to me that I could uh one, convey my passion to protect the player, to protect their child, but also I had a plan that worked to ensure that the player did not end up in dire financial straits post-retiring, which is still a sad commentary in professional sports where most players end up broke. Our clients don't. And I and I think a lot of that has to do with our, you know, quote unquote mousetrap, our our style of representation, our business plan for the player, but also because of our passion to protect the person. So it's more than just a business endeavor. We truly care about the families. We truly want sports to be the catalyst to transform the families financially for generations. And fortunately, we've had way more wins in that regard than losses. But it's the passion that undergirds the business model that sustains us and continues to propel us going forward.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

I love that. I want to ask you, this is gonna be a two-part question. So I want to ask you about Delaware State, the impact it had on your career as an agent. But before I ask you that, so when I was an agent, maybe I started a little bit before you, um, I was representing athletes.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah, you represented a formal teammate of mine, Clear.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Uh, before I even get to that, I had two players from Howard. So I love the fact that you have players at HBCU, Omar Evans and Elijah Thurman, give them a little bit of love. But I was gonna ask you about the player you just mentioned. So I represented a player named Uhuru Joby Hameter. Yeah. Uh from Philly. How did I get him? And were you not an agent yet? Is that why he was?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I wasn't an agent. Uhuru had to be a couple years after me. Um, but I was a traditional corporate lawyer at the time. But I do remember being on campus and still being on the team when Uhuru came on as a freshman. Of course, he was a big, long, athletic, defensive lineman, right? Defensive end, I think, if memory serves me. And I just remember him showing up and folks like, how did this kid here get to Delaware State? No disrespect to Delaware State, but because of a phenomenal institution, but because of his body type and et cetera, you know, you typically kids like that get, you know, swooped away by the, you know, Power Force schools. And uh, but no, Uhuru came to Dell State. He was dominant. I was excited to see the opportunity because before him, it was Rod Millstead had been drafted my freshman year to the Cowboys out of Delaware State offensive linemen. Um, and then we had a couple other guys that may have had the proverbial cup of tea in the league, got to a training camp or what have you. But Uhuru was kind of that next up guy. But no, I was I was a traditional lawyer. I had I had not started my sports practice at that point.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, and I was gonna ask you, so playing there, um, and then as you became an agent, did that have an impact in your willingness to recruit or represent players from from from the Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

One, uh I had an appreciation of the level of talent that was at the HBCU level. The other thing, too, even before Delaware State, my high school coaches, most of them played in the CIAA, right? Played at Virginia Union and Virginia State, et cetera. And uh many of them of my high school coaches went on to the NFL. Uh at the time many of them played in the USFL back then, right? And uh so I knew that there was real, there were, there were pro players at the uh smaller school HBCU level. And so yeah, I was not at all dissuade by the idea that the best talent came from the Penn States of the world. I knew that there was good football played at lower division schools and HBCUs. So we targeted, you know, many of the HBCU sch uh school players still do. I mean, this coming draft in a couple weeks, a couple uh couple months. We have four HBCU players. So we've always prided ourselves. Of course, most celebrated HBCU guys, 14-year future Hall of Famer, Antoine Bethe out of Howard, but Don Kerry out of Norfolk State, Justin Durant, second rounder, highest draft pick ever out of out of Hampton University, Kendall Langford, third rounder out of Hampton University. Most recently, Joshua Williams, who's a free agent, cornerback for the Chiefs out of Fayetteville State, Division II. So there are just a ton of players coming out of the HBCU level that go on to be great pros. And uh that's always been the case. Certainly prior to integration, that was the primary source for black talent. Um, but even post-1954, post-1964, we still find players, very skilled players, who, you know, began or played a portion of their career at the HBCU level. As someone once said on the scouting side, if you can, if you can play football, we'll find you. And that's still the case. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer. I just literally hung up the phone with one of your former colleagues, and I said, make sure your guys go back and do work on my corner from South Carolina State. Um, because he's a real pro. And uh this come this upcoming draft, Jared Washington. And uh and he said, No, I appreciate that, we'll make sure. Sometimes the smaller schools, HBCU notwithstanding, sometimes the smaller division prospects are not as thoroughly scouted because there's so many others at the larger schools, and scouts can sometimes give the smaller school prospect short shrift vis-a-vis the draft, and then they scramble in April when everyone starts to talk about how good this player is. And so we try to get ahead of that by reaching out to GMs around this time and say, hey, make sure your building watches this kid. This kid's a pro.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I have a small side note as I have to thank um the HBCU schools for me getting my job because with the Bears, when I I went to um it was 2001, and I was at a Howard Hampton game. And you know, I was a low-level agent, so I for me it was an opportunity to get athletes that were going to be overlooked by some of the bigger agencies. You weren't in existence yet, which was good for me, my practice. And I saw Jerry Angelo at the game, and he was recruiting a player. Last name was Scott, defensive end from Hampton. I don't know if he ever did anything at the end.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

No, I'm talking for the kid, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah. I think it was like Tracy White on the other side that I was looking at at Howard. Yeah, yeah. And he played the Seattle Seahawks. But at that time, he asked me to meet him at halftime, and he said, Would you ever be interested in working on the team side? So part of my story is always gonna be the Howard Hampton game and how I got to where I was. There you go. The formation of the agency, T S E N G, and the partnership with Jeff Whitney. In January, this past January, I read in Anscape reported that your firm represented the most clients among black-done agencies, 34, is what it said, and one of the most successful firms in all of football, race aside. I don't know. Were you aware of this when it was reported? And I want to ask you about what you built, your pride in what and how important that is to you and the athletes you represent.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, it's funny. That's a good question, uh, Cliff. It's funny because I was aware as of the time the Anscape article came out a couple months ago, but only a few months before that. Of course, Jeff and I keep our heads down and we're just trying to grow the business, grow the business, grow the business. Um, but then there's another, there's another organization called Inside the League, and they do a kind of agency report throughout the year. And I subscribe, but admittedly, I don't, you know, go in and look at the stuff on a regular basis. Again, we're client-driven here, and so it's always, every day we come to the office is stuff to do that relates to our clients. And so we're not kind of scouring the internet looking for things like that. So, in any event, someone puts this chart in front of me, and this was ranking of agencies according to client size on a per capita kind of analysis, meaning uh number of clients, yes, but also vis-a-vis the number of agents in the building. And so we're leanly built. It's Jeff and me, and we have two younger agents as well. But most of the shops against which we're competing have 10 plus agents, right? And we were looking like, wow. And so just from a size, we were like a ninth or tenth or something like that going into the uh year 2026. But the guys above us were 10 plus agents per agency, all backed by either a conglomerate or private equity financing. And here we are, you know, a small independent shop with less than five agents, and we have more clients than most and are as competitive as some of the conglomerates in this business and competing with them head to head. And it was at that point where Jeff and I paused for a minute and took some stock and, you know, expressed some gratitude to the various uh to the God and to the you know the various other forces that exist that, you know, we subscribe to and and he gave some thanks, you know, because uh oftentimes we assess when it's over. And uh sometimes it's okay to kind of, you know, pick your head up a little bit and do a survey of what you've done in real time. So yeah, um, it wasn't until recently that we were able to kind of appreciate, yo, dump something special, both within the black community, but within sport, within business. And it it's doubly special given the level of competition, as you stated at the outset, that exists in this industry. Um so yeah, no, we we take extreme pride, and it's with a great deal of humility that we just continue to just go to work every day and do our job and hope that our message continues to resonate with families and players.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

You talk about humility, and uh I think that's such a critical core value to possess. I'm so glad you used that word. It's it's a seldom used word in today's age of social media. Well the mission, T S E G, why why is it unique, the value of the relationship beyond the traditional? Athlete, client, family relationship. Tell us a little bit about that, why, why TSEG's mission is a little bit more unique.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I mean, and and people always get a little uncomfortable talking about our history as a country. But our history as a country is complicated and in its early beginnings, it's it's disturbing on a lot of levels, right? This country, no matter your political affiliation, if you are a student of accurate history, this country was largely built on the backs of slave labor. Those enslaved humans were largely of African descent, my ancestors. Brown versus Board of Education. I mean, prior to 1954, which ruled that segregation in the public school setting was unconstitutional. Didn't say anything about private life. We extend that from the public school setting to all walks of life with the 1964 Civil Rights Act. But prior to 1954, we were separate and unequal. We were an apartheid nation. I mean, that's just a fact. We know that the evolution goes from slavery to 1865 and, you know, December 6th, emancipation, uh, to roughly 12 years of reconstructing America, the so-called Reconstruction era. And at that point, during Reconstruction, you saw uh African Americans achieve the heights of all industries, politics. We saw America's first black senator, uh uh Blantz Bruce, I think was his name. Uh, we saw black folks becoming uh governors of states, right? We saw black folks excelling in business during this 12-year Reconstruction period. In fact, some historians maintain that the best decade for black America ever in the history of the country was during Reconstruction. Um, this is not my quote. This is the quote of many historians who've really studied the issue. Following Reconstruction, a deal was struck between the North and South that led to the Black Codes, which evolved into the infamous Jim Crow era. And Jim Crow followed us through Plessy v. Dred Scott decision, U.S. Supreme Court decisions that said there is no rule affecting black people that white people in America are bound to respect. The Dred Scott decision, Justice Tanney authored that decision, led to Plessy v. Ferguson, which said separate but equal was constitutional. Of course, there was no separate and equal. It was always separate and unequal. And then Plessy v. Ferguson was the law of the land until 1954 in Brown versus the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas, argued by the late great Justice Thurgood Marshall, um, Charles Hamilton Houston, and others. Uh and from 1954, we then get 10 years later the adoption of the Civil Rights Act that really expanded the Brown v. Board ruling. Um, our history as black people in this country is a unique one. It's a history of pain and pleasure, it's a history of sadness and happiness. But because of that, society oftentimes has relegated people of African descent in the country and other racial minorities to the margins when it comes to industry, education, healthcare, housing. It was always the margins, and we could just get what we could claw and scrap. We fight and fight and get the leftovers as it were. Unless, as you see in the 70s and beyond, we were talking about entertainment, traditional entertainment, television, movies, et cetera, and then sports. And there we were allowed to achieve the fullness of our capability with respect to the performance, with respect to us being entertainers, still being paid less and all this, but there was, you know, the whole history behind um legendary coach for Alabama with the hound's tooth hat. Bear Bryant. Bear Bryant and his resistance to play black players, most notably a black quarterback. But then they play USC, and USC trounces them. And then next thing you know, Alabama's signing black players and the advent. So we we we go from not being in the game at all, being allowed to participate, to okay, you can participate to some degree, to okay, you can participate because of the athletic prowess, but you can't coach, you can't scout, you can't represent, you can't manage, you certainly cannot own. All right. And so that history is unique. And then when so when we're we're talking to families, oftentimes the families that we end up representing, that history is not lost on them. And they're surrendering their young men, their children, to people who will mentor them. Cliff, when you were an agent, you were also a mentor. You know that if our job was simply as contract negotiations, it'd be a less challenging job, right? That's the, you know, we we wear multiple hats in the agent community. And so the families that retain us oftentimes are looking for extensions of the philosophy that they had been trying to instill in their child since, you know, the child was born. And so they're looking for a certain kind of representation, and we understand that. We embrace that. We know that ours is not simply contract negotiation and good luck, little Jimmy, with the rest of your life. We instill our clients, look, you have a real opportunity. The first thing, Cliff, is despite what you may believe, despite what many people have made it appear to be, there's nothing that entitles you the right to play in the NFL. You are not owed that right. No player is. It is truly a godsend. It is truly a blessing. The ability to make generational wealth playing a child's game is what we're talking about. So we start with that premise, and then we go forward to the idea that you, 19, 20, 21-year-old young person, you can truly be the catalyst that transforms the financial makeup of your family for generations to come. That's a lot to a kid who's just focusing on catching the football, right, or making a tackle. And now you're saying I'm the transformative person for my entire lineage, for my entire family. You know, and so it's funny because all the bravado you see on the television screen with, you know, a young athlete on the field, and when he's in that room, when he's in this private area, that bedroom, he knows more people that have come from his community to go off to Sunday to play professional sports, who squander the opportunity, who come home with a bunch of stories, but not a lot of wealth. And he's hoping and praying that he's not among them, that his scenario will be different. And so rather than hiding from that fear, from that concern, we address it head on at the outset, and then we build a plan. If you do these things, if you live a life like this, the only variable will be health. And that's one that every player, that's the risk that every player takes in this business, because it's, as you know, it's a violent business. But if you take care of these other things, if you align yourself with a certain group of people in the locker room and outside of the locker room, you can truly be a transformative force for your family for generations in such that your grandchildren won't be having conversations about raising money to send, you know, your niece or nephew to college or to a trip somewhere for educational purposes. Money will no longer be the central focus of the conversation. The family will have issues that they have to handle, but financial issues won't be chief among them. And so I think the families that we end up representing, that kind of conversation resonates with them. They want that kind of mentoring for their child, they want that kind of leadership for their son, their grandson, nephew, whatever it may be. They want individuals who are going to help them truly enter manhood in a certain kind of way. And so that's not a responsibility, or that's a responsibility that at the sports and entertainment group we don't shy from. We embrace, we lean in. And uh, yeah, those are the type of people we attract, and those are the people we, quite frankly, believe it's a blessing to serve and to work for.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I I don't know. Um I don't know if you're a professor or not, or you teach, but what I'm taking away is if you represent me, if your firm represents me, I'm not just gonna get an agent, not just gonna get a mentor, like you said, a lot of people do that, but I'm gonna get a tremendous amount of knowledge and education that I may not be getting other places. I I love that about you. I love that this is just all in your head, unprepared, because it's who you are, it's who you live, you live it, but you're also able to teach it. There's also, I read something you do, which I thought was interesting and unique, is based on everything you just said, you also found a book that you felt was very impactful that you provide to your clients. Can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, uh several years ago, former ESPN analyst, broadcaster, journalist, uh Bill Roden, William Rhodan, authored a book entitled Uh $40 million Slaves: The Rise and Fall of the Black Athlete in America. Read the book, really, really well written. It's a factual historical book, but it reads like a novel. Uh, I think in chapter one, it opens up about the the old battles between Morgan and Howard of Morgan State and Morehouse or for whatever being played at the uh at the Yankee Stadium, and and this is doing segregation, so the crowds were full, and he just tells a story that it's just so graphically written that it puts you right there. But by the end of it, he just breaks down the history of American sport and uh the role with which African Americans have played, and it's a really stunning read on a lot of levels. And so we made a decision a long time ago that when we signed, it's wild. Because many of our competitors, they signed a new class of rookies, and you may get a necklace or you may get something shiny. And at the sports attendance group, you go get a book. I know. I laugh because some of our rookies are like, yeah, but my homeboy just got a diamond necklace and I got a book. But in any event, if I were to take the camera and walk around the office, all you see is history. Um, it it is indeed the best guide for the future, right? And so, yeah, with us, we tell our players and the families if you want a shop simply to negotiate your deal every couple, three, four years, and that's it, we're probably not the best shop for you. If you want a shop that's gonna tell you what you need to hear or want to hear and not what you need to hear, it's a thousand of them out there, we're probably not the best place for you. If you want agents who are gonna teach you the business of the NFL, who are never going to lie to you, good, bad, or indifferent, who are gonna tell you absolutely what you need to hear, whether you want to hear it or not, then all day long we're the best place for you. And every year we find the right crop of families to work for who are looking for our style of representation. So to your question, yeah, the uh William Roden book, Bill Roden's book, $40 million Slaves, is the first thing we give our rookies. When we check them in to the training facility to get them ready for combine prep, yeah, they get a book. In addition to signing the SRA, the standard rep agreement that players have to sign with agents, once they execute that document, I say, Welcome to the family, read this.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Well, again, again, I I love it because it just confirms that they're getting getting so much more than than just an agent. You know, we all all people have a story. Everyone has dealt with some form of adversity, and some people get stronger from it, some get weaker. Uh, I chose the word warrior because I feel like it is a powerful word. It represents to me so many things. For me, definitely a way of saying someone could overcome adversity. But in everything you've experienced, does that word mean anything to you?

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Absolutely. This is a whole conversation. You're gonna definitely have to edit a lot of this out. When you hear the word warrior, it connotes war, it connotes a battle, but inherent in that notion is the foe being something external. But the biggest enemy we fight every day is the one we see in the morning when we're brushing our teeth. The biggest enemy our clients have is the enemy within. Um and we talk about that. I mean, we do, in addition to the book thing, you may have read, we do an annual retreat. Antoine Bethe came up with this idea years ago. He was still in the league. Um he was on the second half, so maybe this is after Antoine played 14 years, or maybe this is after year eight. And he was just noticing the conversation in the locker room just declining. The substance about things being discussed was just, I mean, declining to say the very least. And he wanted to ensure that at least within the agency, that our guys were getting good information. And so we were sitting somewhere and he said, yo, we should, we should do some type of annual thing where we bring all the guys together and we just talk about stuff, right? Just to get them ready for what's coming in the season and life after football, et cetera. And so back in 2011, we started an annual player retreat. We find a location, we bring all the players in right before training camp, we spend a couple days fellowshipping, but also talking about life after football, that inevitability, and how you cannot plan for your second career once you're retired. That you have to be planning for life after football during your first career. There have to be things done, and that's you know, the offseason is in part four preparation, because that eventuality, everyone at some point is going to hang up their cleats. Most players think they're going to play for 10 years, but we know the average lifespan is three and a half. During this retreat, we talk about one principle over and over again, Cliff, and it's the power of the mind. Right? All of these players, all of these players, since the beginning of playing sport, have focused on the physical. Lift these weights, do these push-ups, run this hill, do these drills, physical, physical, physical. You go to camps, right? I remember going to Metro Index Camp in high school in the summertime and somewhere in, I think it was California, Pennsylvania, and we're scrimping up money to go to this football camp to, you know, to backpedal and all this other stuff. There's never a camp for this, right? And today, in professional sports, it's always been a pressure-filled industry. But today, man, think about it. Back in the day, you had a bad game, you had to wait till the evening news, you had to wait till the newspaper came out to hear people tell you how bad you were, and by the next day, it was over. You were walking off the practice field and you look at that device in your hand and you got fans saying you suck, right? You go to work every day, you get evaluated. When you were in your role with the Bears all those years, I'm sure you got evaluated by Ted or whomever was evaluating you, and they sit you down at the end of the year and say, here are the things you're doing well, here are the things we need you to improve. Professional athletes get valuated every day, right? And that evaluation usually comes from some curse screaming at you and cussing at you. Moreover, I'm sure, I'm certainly sure that they were thinking of replacing you every year, Cliff, during your 20 plus years with Chicago, I'm teasing. But they never told you that every day. You go to work every day, someone's screaming that you're not living up to par, and we're gonna bring somebody in to replace you tomorrow. This is every day for the professional athlete. And then when you're leaving, if you look at that device, you got all these fans telling you how much you suck. The level of pressure, not to mention, player gets drafted, player signs a big contract, the whole family thinks they're rich now. Right? I mean, the league minimum is more than what 90% of Americans make annually, right? If not more than 90%. There are no, you know, you know, cheap contracts in the NFL or in professional sports. Everything's lucrative at that level vis-a-vis the typical nine to five worker. So the family thinks I get to retire now because you know, baby boy just got drafted, or you know, I want a mansion now, I want an exotic car, luxury car. And so now the player is under not just the pressure of work, not just the added emotional pressure from the fan base, but now from his immediate family. And so we talk about the importance of taking care of your mental. That this is not a once-a-month thing, this is a daily thing. We talk about the importance of understanding the three components to living that your thoughts dictate how you feel. And how you feel influences heavily how you move. So, to put it differently, my thoughts control my emotions. My emotions dictate my actions. But here's the kicker I get to choose my thoughts. I get to control what I think about by changing my environment. Sometimes we do, and we do this all the time on a date, right? We put on mood music, right? We're gonna put on some Luca Fan draws. We want to set the mood because we're trying to create an emotional state, right? So the same thing applies to our normal lives. You wake up in the morning and you're feeling melancholy, you're feeling sad, you're feeling depressed. Do some inventory. What have I been thinking about? And usually it's because of you fearing something that is yet to come, worrying about something that will probably never happen. So again, that that that enemy within is something we we stress. So you gotta be a warrior, man, not just in professional sports, but in life. But I think the foe is really the foe that we manufacture. It's it's it's doubt, it's fear. And professional athletes, man, I know everybody wants to think they're the toughest dudes in the world, but they are no different than any of us. They battle these same, these same foes. And so, yeah, warrior is more than an appropriate word to discuss the various things discussed on your podcast for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Yeah, you tapped right into the whole philosophy behind this. Everything that I stand for. People think that when we say negotiation warrior, we're talking about someone that crushes the other side or gets the biggest deals. And what you've just broken down, this mindset, the power of the mind, that fear, struggle, suffering are stories that we tell each other ourselves, that we choose to live, we choose to write when pain is real, and the rest is something that we can control. This is why I um I wake up every morning and I cold plunge in Lake Michigan because I know that fear is something that we have the ability to control. Absolutely. Um your answer is just amazing. Amazing. You know, you other thing about you that I always looked at was what was I thought a challenge. I'm sure you didn't necessarily look at that way, but you represented a lot of running backs way back, even when I first heard your name with Maurice Jones Drew, Le'Veon Bell, Matt Forte, even when I was with the Bears and Jordan Howard. I'm sure there are others I don't know. And I always saw you um really as a leading advocate for a position that um out of your control has always been for a while um one of the most, the lowest valued positions in the league compared to other positions. Talk about that. Talk about how you were able to use your passion and advocacy for your clients to help players, specifically even at that position.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yeah, no, that's a a a poignant question then and now. It's one of the most valued positions in an NFL building vis-a-vis production and what the offense can get from quality play at the position. But from management's perspective, because the so-called lifespan at the position is truncated because of the physicality of the sport or can be, there's a a reticence on the part of ownership and management to invest certainly in one person in the position. Um and I I still think it's misplaced, right? Yes, running backs in the traditional utilization of the position will take on far greater punishment than most other positions. And as a consequence, their lifespan uh as a player is certainly shortened. But it doesn't necessarily have to be. Le'Beyon played until his early 30s. I still represent Amir Abdullah, who's going on 33 as a player, still effective player, just finished up his last season with the Colts. Matt Forte played until his early 30s, et cetera. We know, you know, the current players like Derek Henry, who's not. A client, but still a very productive player. Saquon Barkley is approaching 30. Christian McCaffrey is approaching 30, if not 30. One, I should say this. One, because of the advent and the advancement of this medical technology, uh, medical readiness, or whatever it's called, just healthcare generally, player, and because of the increased understanding and body awareness, physiological awareness of players to date, we are able to elongate careers position notwithstanding. Players are just doing more to care for their bodies. They are smarter now. They're not just relying on training rooms at their respective teams. They're doing their own research to elongate careers. They're augmenting and supplementing what the teams are providing for them in the way of care. So then when you take that to the uh resource allocation board of a team, I'm always stuck. I'm like, yo, if this guy is responsible for 30 plus percent of your offense, pay him and pay him as soon as you can. Because all he's going to do is get more expensive. And that's not unique to the running back position. That's any position. You remember back in the day when the Eagles, uh, who's the GL? What was his name? Joe uh Joe Banner. Banner. And back in the day, we could do deals after two years. And Joe would find those kids and sign them up to five and six-year extensions after that second year. And in the first couple years, the player was ecstatic, right? But by year three, they were under the market because the growth of money in the NFL grows exponentially, right? But it was a true thing to do to lock these players up for long term as soon as you can. Because when you find an ascending player, when you find a player who you know is going to just get all he's gonna do is get more expensive. And so if the owners truly understood some of the decision making of these GMs, well, you mean I could have signed that player last year for $10 million less over the life of the deal? Yeah, but I was gunshot for whatever reason, right? And maybe the reason was finance said you couldn't spend. Maybe the owner said you couldn't spend. And I don't know. Like I always say, when it comes to negotiation, I know everything you know except the permission you have in terms of what your budget is to spend. But all the other stuff is public information. We we're looking at the same thing, right? And so it has made the job of the agent representing running backs. It's made the job, it's forced agents to be a little bit more creative and mindful of the perception of the longevity of the running back position when negotiating deals. Ideally, we want to do shorter deals. We want to front load them as much as and probably a little bit more than you would uh a corner or a receiver, because you know, that guy's gonna be around for the entirety of a five-year extension. Um, and things of that sort. So we're proud that, um, and you know this obviously because we've done it, we did a bunch together, but whether it was Maurice or Matt Forte or Le'Veon, these guys earned all of the money in those second contracts. And even in the case of a Matt Forte, and LeVeon was able to steal third contracts, and then you get a guy like a like a James White for the Patriots, uh, former Super Bowl MVP, or even now currently Amir Abdullah, he's on his fourth or fifth contract in his early 30s still contributing. It just forces the agent to make sure they're negotiating specific to the position and specific to the player, right? As opposed to just having this blanket approach that you fit everybody in, every contract negotiation is the same, it's just a different position on top or different name on top of the contract. No, you got to be a little bit creative when coming to these running backs because they they pull the trigger. Everyone is trying to, GMs and teams are trying to anticipate when the bottom is going to fall off or fall on from underneath the player, right? When is that cliff gonna hit? Is it 27? All right, and so we want, oh, he may be in a period, he may be too old to even do an extension because even though he had a phenomenal year last year, this is gonna be the year where his talent, you know, because oftentimes they'll say when that father time thing hits, it's precipitous, right? It's immediate, it's not gradual. And that that can be the case sometimes. But I think, look, if the goal is winning, you collect good players and you reward them as soon as you as soon as possible. Um, and if a player has transcended the position, I thought Le'Veon Bell did that. Le'Veon, although he was 33% of the offense, he wasn't your traditional running back. Le'Veon was just a weapon. Wherever you put him, you would get benefit from him. Running back, blocker, receiver, decoy, et cetera. You don't mess around with that. You reward that guy, you pay that guy, and you keep the machine moving. And that's the that's the impression we try to leave on teams when discussing it. But uh, but it's still a challenge. We got out of the market for a wildcliff, just because they were the position was so devalued. We just started signing running backs again over the past couple years. Uh, we got a really good one this coming draft, and Emmett Johnson from the University of Nebraska think he's the best, quite frankly. I know folks are anointing the kids from Notre Dame, but this kid, Emmett Johnson, is a special player. I mean, he's gonna have a special career. Um, so we're back in it. Um, folks like you know, Derek Henry and Saquon Barkley have have made the position one that teams are coveting again. But the reality is this, man, when we get to December and especially January, and if you're lucky to play in February, all of that is run game. If you can't run the ball in this league in the playoffs, you don't get to the playoffs, you certainly don't sustain through the playoffs. I mean, whether that's a a backfield by committee or whether you have a very special player. The last thing I'll say on this too is these special running backs, right? They're not, I mean, Jacksonville's still looking to replace Maurice Jones Drew. No disrespect. Chicago is still looking to replace Matt Forte. These are historic guys. Matt is what, number two all time or number three all time in rushing in yards, not for the Bears. A franchise that's as old as the league. You think you're gonna just draft another guy to be that? No, these are generational players. And so if you're lucky enough to draft one, yeah, you reward them early, keep them there as long as you can, squeeze that orange for all the juice you can possibly get. And to your credit, the Bears did that with Matt. It was a challenge. You made it challenging. You and Jerry did. But we ended up doing exactly that. You drafted the player early, you get them done, and you you make sure you get all the value you can from that player who you know is a special kind of player.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

All right. Well, the challenge is exactly what my next question was gonna be. So, Matt Forte, first of all, Matt Forte would be an excellent guest because he has great insight on this his experience. Yeah. But we don't have Matt here today. I'd love to talk to him more about it. But your negotiation, the challenge with the Bears, with me, talk about what your experience was like, what you perceived Matt's experience was like, what we did well, what you did well to get us to ultimately do the right thing, where maybe we made mistakes, and did that negotiation impact yours or Matt's relationship with the team?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

So you draft Matt early in the second round, mid-second round, I forget what the number was, and he has immediate success. I think his first carry against the Colts was a touchdown, right? Uh in Indianapolis. And it's funny because he he juked Antoine Bethe, my safety, and ran for like 40 yards for a touchdown. That was, I think, his first carry in the NFL. Matt, it was clear that Matt was a unique player, he was going to have a good career. You all were up against the change in the running back market. It was beginning, the position was beginning to be quote, devalued. I never forget, and I don't think you even know this. I had just secured Drew's second contract, excuse me, with Jacksonville. Uh making him the second highest paid running back. Maurice hadn't emerged as a starter. He was still backing up Fred. And Maurice, on an APY uh basis, became the second highest paid. And I'm leaving the building. I'm in the parking lot of the Jaguars, getting in the car. We had just done a press conference on the extension, and my phone rings, and it's Jerry Angelo saying, How did you do that? How did you get that deal done? And I said, Don't worry, we'll be having this conversation in about a year. And we both laugh and uh referring to Matt Forte. I remember, Cliff, you came to the office in DC early trying to figure out something, um, which was shrewd. I don't know if you just had other business, or you said, I'm gonna try to get in front of this thing, and I'm gonna go get it get in front of this guy early to see if we can do it. What made things challenging for us, if you recall, was um Kansas City Chiefs. Jamal Charles. Jamal Charles. Jamal Charles was the next. So you had Brandon Jacobs that came in at a level that was kind of mirroring what the idea was that the running back market is devaluing. We do Maurice. Maurice's deal was somewhat of an aberration because it was on par to some of the prior deals like Steven Jackson and LT's deal. I think $8 million a year was the top of the market, and we did Reese at like 7.6 and change. And then Brandon comes in at five something, and then Jamal does five something, and next up is Matt Forte. And you all obviously were looking at Maurice's deal as the exception, and the market suggested that this five or so million a year was the right place because the position is being devalued, et cetera. And again, the conversation with Matt and his family was that look, all these deals represent a lot of money, right? If you look at them in a vacuum. But we have to study these deals vis-a-vis other players and within the microscope that is, or the universe that is the NFL, you can't compare it to the guy, you know, who's, you know, working down the street doing whatever that job is. So yeah, it's a lot of money, but is it commensurate to the value you bring to the team vis-a-vis other similarly situated players? And the answer to Matt I would give was no, it's not. You should be priced at a market similar to what Maurice just signed a few months ago. In fact, you were more productive entering your extension than Maurice was entering his. In fact, your deal should be better, in my respect. Matt had a tough decision because even at five and change over the life of the extension, it was still a lot of money, more money than his family had ever seen, right? But he made the tough decision that he would play it out. I never forget also, you all had just played the Eagles in, I want to say in Philadelphia. And I was at the game. I went to go down the tunnel to see you guys, I saw you, and then Jerry was literally standing at the end of the tunnel facing the field. The game was over, and he was just staring out into the field. And I'm like, Jerry, this is silly. We should be getting Matt had a great game. And I'm like, Jerry, this is silly, we should be getting this done. And I forget what he said, but it was an expression of frustration, but also a little bit of acknowledgement that it shouldn't be this hard. We should find a middle ground for Matt. Um, unfortunately, at the end of that year, Jerry was let go. And they fire, and they hire, you all hire the Bears, you hire Phil Emory. Phil was the pro director for the Chiefs. And Phil and I meet in Indy at the Combine. And, you know, I'm an assertive guy. And the first thing I say, look, we're not doing the Jamal Charles deal. So if that's where this conversation is going to start and end, then put the franchise tag on them and we'll just, you know, play on the tag. Ultimately, you know, we got a deal done that made sense for both sides in the end. Matt and our relationship has always been fine. Matt put his trust in me with his career, and that's never wavered. And I trusted that Matt would do everything in his power to be the pro that he was. It was certainly emotional at times for Matt because the players put everything into this thing. And when it's time to be rewarded for an extension, they think that their numbers should be the thing that tells the story. And if my numbers suggest X, I should then get Y. Um, and it's not that simple, right? There are a lot of moving parts. And this is truly a business. And like any business, can we give more value for as little money as possible? It's not, it doesn't make the cliff steins of the world evil people. It's just you doing your job and protecting your clients' interests. So the player always, there's a level of disappointment. There's a level of disrespect that players can feel. But once the ink dries, I don't think Matt played those next four years with the Bears with any less love for the organization. I think what it does for the player, it heightens the player's sensitivity to the business of the sport. Then at the end of the day, all the attaboys and the pats on the back when you score touchdowns. At the end of the day, when it comes down to dollars and cents, this is still corporate America at its height. And at the end of the day, it's about dollars and cents. And sometimes our interests are not going to align when we're talking about dollars and cents. But here's the beauty about the business there is no bad job in the NFL if you're a player, right? Um, all 32 teams are special. And yeah, some teams are for purposes of, you know, your your finances, of course, some teams are are are better positioned to compete for a trophy for a Super Bowl. But yeah, if you as long as you're in the league, you're doing okay. And so your question coming out of that negotiation, it was pretty pretty protracted. It got emotional at times. Um uh initially, yeah, there's a level of personal animus. I that's probably too strong of an adjective, but there's a level of uh there's some emotion there on the part of the player. But once the deal's concluded and the player rejoins his teammates and gets back in that locker room, I think all that subsides and it's about winning football games again. So Matt Matt's still a bear to this day, as you know. He still loves that organization. That's the organization that drafted him. He spent the majority of his career there. He still loves, you know, being part of the Bears organization.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

It's great. I appreciate you saying that. And uh, you know, when I was an agent, of course I felt like I I know that I've understood how important every deal was to the player. I would have liked the thought, and I believe always believed that I carried that with me as a negotiator, but I do feel like looking back, that maybe it became monopoly money to me, and maybe I did start to drift a little bit. And when that really hit home with me when it was was a meeting that we had during the negotiations. And I I'm gonna assume it was not planned, it was organic, but e either way it had an impact on me where we were sitting in a conference room, and I think we asked um you if it was okay if and maybe it was Jerry, but if we could speak directly to the player and you were invited to be there. Yeah, I think I recall you saying that's probably not it's huh? I think you said um I think you said it's probably not a good idea, but allowed it to happen. Yeah, we had that meeting and it didn't end well. It ended with, I don't know if you remember, but uh Matt stormed out, yeah, slammed the door, and that's the first time it hit me where you know I'm doing real.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

You know, his eyes welled a little bit. Yeah. No, I mean, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

So as the agent, okay, so I see this, and then I'm looking at you, and you weren't really surprised because you I think you thought maybe probably shouldn't even have that meeting like that. But then I realized like this is the emotion that you as the agent has to manage and deal with because that doesn't help you get a deal done. Right. You actually have to have then go and have an internal negotiation. Do you recall that and what anything you had to do to kind of help smooth that over?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Yeah, no, and that's the thing. I've had this happen a couple times. I remember when we were dealing with a protracted negotiation with the Jaguars when Shah Khan had just bought the team. Gene Smith was the GM. And uh, and um Gene wanted Maurice wanted to talk to the owner. And they actually facilitated the meeting where Maurice went to talk to Shaw for the first time. I'm like, that's a bad idea, man. That's a bad idea. Um, and you know, those things generally don't work out. Players are emotional creatures. This job requires a great deal of passion, what they do, and they sacrifice tons. People just see the end product, right? And I think sometimes teams, I was having a conversation about a player whose jersey is behind me, right? And he had a good year for New England, obviously just got released, but he came back from ACL within four to six months, he's running full speed, right? He really didn't get a chance to train. He was rehabbing all offseason and still was able to produce the way he did. It was times during that rehabilitation process where he didn't know if he was ever going to come back. There's a lot of emptying of that emotional jug weekly for these players. It's required for them to be at their A-level game when they play. And then it's time for them to be paid. Now, mind you, most of these players are coming from meager economic beginnings, and it's not lost on them that this next contract can be the thing that really shifts the family in a lot of respects. Maybe I can now retire my mother from that arduous job of riding up and down the train, of being a well, worker on the train or what have you. Maybe I can have my dad get off that trash truck finally that he's been sitting on the back of, et cetera. There are a lot of emotions going on. And then the player is thinking about all the things he did to be ready for that team, right? To his body. And we know how rigorous it is to get ready for a game. I mean, everybody's hurt by October. Everybody's in pain. And so when that player does all those things and makes these personal sacrifices for himself, but also for the collective, and he's an ambassador, right? He's parrying the flag. He's not embarrassing the organizational ownership. He's everything you want in a person and a player, and it's time to pay him what his production says his value is, and then you're met with resistance. Yeah, it's emotional. So again, I recall sitting down with Matt saying, again, man, I know they love on you and they hug on you, but at the end of the day, this is business first and foremost for the Bears brass. I do appreciate you saying that, Cliff, about the monopoly thing. I think sometimes GMs do fall victim to that. And they feel like there's a battle between uh, there's a personal game being played, right, between agent and GM over the negotiation that I get to win. And I don't know if that's something that is fostered by ownership vis-a-vis the GM. But I always tell GMs, particularly new GMs, is that look, man, the only time we're ever going to be at odds is when we're negotiating dollars, right? But every time, everything else, we want the same thing. Maybe for different reasons. You focus on winning the Super Bowl. I want the player to be everything he can be for himself and his family because it's really transformative if we do it the correct way. But when it comes to the math, and when it comes to the money, all I'm ever gonna do is base it on production. That's it. It's production and maybe a little bit of time value of money, right? When were the prior deals executed and how has the cap and everything else changed since that deal was done? But the production should dictate the value. And I think sometimes my counterparts get caught up in I don't want to pay the most. If my guy has performed at a level that justifies him being the highest paid, you should want to make him the highest paid. He earned it, you know? And so that can make sometimes that I don't think that was your in my case. I understand with Matt anyway, I understand that the market was suggesting that there was an opportunity to get considerable value for lesser price, players price point, rather. Players were signing these lesser deals, right? And why not try to see if we can get Matt Forte for that? That goes back, however, to the earlier points we discussed about making sure the player is educated on his value, making sure he understands his value. The first negotiation we always have is with the family. Everybody thinks their kids are going to be the first pick in the draft, everybody thinks their kids are gonna be the highest paid when it comes to negotiations. And look, we can measure value based on production. Here are the yards, here are the total yards from skirmish, here's the number of touchdowns, here's the percentage of the offense that runs through you, right? And how has this resulted in wins and losses, et cetera? And here is what similarly situated players who have done things similarly. Here's what their contracts look like. So we then can create kind of a high in a floor, a ceiling in a floor. We can then bracket the value of the player and say, oh, the guys who've performed at this level make this amount of money, and those contracts can be dated back to a year ago or maybe two years ago. So they're still current contracts in large respect. So thus we should be asking for this. And then when we're met with, no, I think it's why, and it's based on what, GM, what are you using to determine your value? Because I'm using production and I'm using similarly situated players in the contract values of those players. What are you basing yours on? Just make me understand the substance for your position so I then can negotiate with you, right? But if you're just pulling numbers out the sky because it's convenient for you to do so, then how do I respond to that? All I have is yards, touchdowns, carries, et cetera, with in the case of the running back. All I have is what's in front of me, right? And and what other players did to warrant the contracts that they were awarded. Make me understand what you're basing your numbers on. That can be frustrating. The other thing, and this is off point, but the other thing that's frustrating with the NFL is the whole cat and mouse approach to negotiations. It's just silly to me. We start negotiations early, and I know it's only going to be the eve of the start of training camp or the eve of the first game, and then you're going to get serious, and we're going you're going to agree to a deal that we could have done months ago. We know what the value is, but you know I'm not going to agree to these numbers. You know all we're going to do is wait, and then eventually you're going to do the deal anyway. It's a waste of time. I don't know, but it's still the strategy that most GMs employ, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Well, I've touched on so many things. Um the lack of just as being a good negotiator, where there's a lack of one side hearing the other side, and then just some also just some not gonna delve too far into it, but just the emotional intelligence component of reading the room, what it's gonna take to get the deal done, and then how you time that and plan that out. Yeah. I want to be sensitive to your time. So I have two more questions. Um, one is I'd like to say that you and I are gonna live forever, and I think that we will live a long time, but we nothing's guaranteed to us. Um, so when it comes to your your legacy, and I know you have three children. Um I got a son. Four children, four children.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

I had three when we were doing business, but I have a I have a son. Man, my youngest is well sh, here's the thing, Cliff. My youngest is 20.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

Oh my goodness. All right, so you have four children, and but there's people that, including your children, but others that might stumble onto this recording 10 years from now. What's your what's your message about your legacy? What do you want to tell people?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Yeah, I hope that my life's work inspires. I hope that my my role as an NFL agent is evident that it was more about the people than about anything else. It was more about shaping these young men. I hope my legacy speaks to a person who appreciated, valued, and was unapologetic about their heritage, their culture. I hope my kids know that their father was willing to sacrifice everything for their lives. I hope my wife of 30 plus years know you asked the question about the impact of Dale State. That's where I met my wife first day on campus. Uh, she was there for track, I was there for football. How much I value her and that none of this would have ever worked but for her constant support uh and criticism. But yeah, no, at the end of the day, I like I'd like my story to be in line with the lives of those historical figures. Maybe not of leading a protest or creating civil rights legislation or anything along those lines, but at least an extension of what their sacrifices allowed me to achieve in throughout my time on the planet.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Amazing. Last question, as I ask everybody, just two or three things great traits that make up a great negotiator.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

Yeah, so the number one thing is subject matter knowledge. You can be the best bluffer in the world, but yeah, if you're on the other side of the table with someone who has the substance and you don't, all your blustering and all your, you know, all the little pretty words you may use, it'll be clear very quickly that you don't know your job. So first and foremost, there is no substitute for substantive knowledge in anything you do. Someone told me as a young lawyer, become an expert in your field as fast as possible. So as an agent, know everything there is to know about your player, his production, the value of that production to the team, the team's cap situation. If you do it correctly, the only thing you will not know is what that finance department vis-a-vis hit their owner, allowed them to spend. And you likely will never know that. Um but everything else you should be able to know and you should be able to just kind of distill down to a thing that allows you to create these parameters by which to negotiate. And then two, two, the two chief rules of any negotiation is one, you never self-negotiate, right? And for novices listening, if I make an offer, I wait for a counter before I reply. But the the other side of that is you try to force the other side to engage in self-negotiations. Not always a difficult thing in the NFL context because most GMs will start off with some crazy number, but they know that we're not gonna respond to that number. And I don't know why you and your colleagues used to oh, I do know why, because some people would accept the ridiculously low deals. So I guess you gotta, you know, try it anyway. But you don't want to ever engage in self-negotiation. You wait for counters before you respond. So don't say, hey, how about 10? Uh, 10 makes you uncomfortable. Okay, what about nine? Okay, fuck it. How about eight? No. If I make an offer, you wait for a counter. And then lastly, and probably chiefly and most importantly, in a negotiating context, if you are not willing to get up from the room, if you are not willing to push back from the table, you are not negotiating. You are being dictated to. So we tell our clients all the time if you're not willing to get up and stop the negotiation and say that's enough, no need to talk further, you're not negotiating. So know the subject matter about which you're negotiating, do not engage in self-negotiating, and always, always be willing to leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:35

Amazing. All all traits, important traits of a of a negotiation warrior. I I love those three. And really, just like wrapping up, we've learned so much today. We've got history of the country, we have civil rights knowledge that is just in your brain at the just ready to come out. Like I just amazing the book, $40 million slaves for anyone that you it motivated me to get it years ago. So I was reading it. I appreciate always wanted to know how what the players were finding out. The retreat, amazing, power of the mind. Yes. The the three components of living, the running back market, my goodness, and the medical technology applied to resource allocation, just so many takeaways, all the way down to his legacy as a father and a husband who made great sacrifices, not just for the business, not just for his clients, but for what his community and what he believes in. So great guests. Thank you so much for your time, Adis. It's always great to see you. And and I learned so much today.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Appreciate you, Cliff. Stay in touch, man. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:57

All right, thanks a lot. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Thank you for listening to Negotiation Warriors. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you like what you heard, please subscribe on the Negotiation Warriors YouTube channel and follow us at Front Office 360 on Instagram and X. And to find out our helping college athletic programs, go to frontoffice360.com