Episode #013: You Don't Know Me - A Negotiation Warrior's Mindset (Kelli Masters)

 🎙️ Negotiation Warriors – Episode #013

 YOU DON'T KNOW ME

 THE NEGOTIATION WARRIOR MINDSET OF KELLI MASTERS

At her very first NFL Combine, one of the most prominent NFL agents in the industry looked Kelli Masters in the eye and told her:

"You don't belong here."

Her response would become the defining mindset of her remarkable career as a successful sports agent:   "You don't know me."

In Episode #013 of Negotiation Warriors, I sit down with one of the true pioneers in professional sports representation.

Kelli is the founder and president of KMM Sports and has represented more NFL players than any woman in the industry. In 2010, she became the first female agent to represent a Top 5 NFL Draft pick, breaking barriers and helping pave the way for future generations of women in sports.

But this conversation isn't just about football.

It's about resilience.

It's about purpose.

It's about leadership.

It's about refusing to let someone else define what you're capable of accomplishing.

Throughout our conversation, Kelli shares the lessons she's learned over more than two decades representing NFL players, building meaningful relationships, overcoming adversity, and negotiating with integrity in one of the most competitive businesses in professional sports.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

• How a conversation with a player's mother changed the direction of Kelli's career.

• Why purpose—not money—became the driving force behind her success.

• The unforgettable story of being told she didn't belong in the NFL agent business—and how one courageous response changed everything.

• Why persistence is one of the most important qualities for success in sports, business, and life.

• How kindness, respect, and relationship-building can become powerful negotiation strategies.

• Why preparation remains the greatest competitive advantage in every negotiation.

• The negotiation behind Blake Jarwin's $24.25 million contract and the lessons learned from standing firm.

• How representing Gerald McCoy, the No. 3 overall pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, helped launch her career.

• The biggest mistakes she's made as a leader—and how adversity became her greatest teacher.

• Why trusting your instincts and maintaining your values matter more than ever in high-pressure negotiations.

• How NIL has transformed athlete representation and why Kelli believes it has created new opportunities for agents committed to serving athletes with integrity.

• The leadership philosophy behind her book, High Impact Life, and why success should be measured by impact—not titles or contracts.

Kelli also shares her thoughts on mentorship, leadership, overcoming self-doubt, balancing priorities, and why the best negotiators don't have to be the loudest people in the room.

Whether you're an executive, attorney, coach, agent, entrepreneur, student, or someone striving to become the best version of yourself, this episode offers timeless lessons on resilience, leadership, negotiation, and living a life of purpose.

Sometimes the most powerful response to criticism isn't anger.

It's quiet confidence.

"You don't know me."

🎧 Listen now: Search Negotiation Warriors wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Lawyers are not do not have a reputation of being nice. How did you, even before you became an agent, how did you fit into that world?

SPEAKER_03 0:09

I have learned in business and as a lawyer, you can be kind and you can be nice, but not to a point where you become a doormat. You don't have to be mean or loud or obnoxious to be a warrior. You can be nice, you can be kind, but you have to be principled. It's a relationship business. When people really genuinely like you and enjoy, you know, having conversations with you or don't run the other way when you're asking a question or wanting to have a conversation, it does help if people like you. And you can be nice and kind while still having convictions and being firm.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Welcome to Negotiation Warriors. I am Cliff Stein, and I am on a never-ending quest to learn what it takes to be a great negotiator. In every episode, I will sit down with some of the greatest negotiators in professional sports who will share knowledge in real life. To find out how we are helping college athletic programs, go to frontoffice360.com to schedule a demo.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Welcome back to Negotiation Warriors, the podcast that features conversations with the greatest negotiators in professional sports. I am your host, Cliff Stein. Today, I am very pleased to welcome NFL agents and my friend, Kelly Masters. Kelly is the founder and president of KMM Sports and has represented NFL players at the highest level. With a background as both an attorney and certified NFL PA contract advisor, she brings a unique perspective to the art and business of negotiation. She is recognized as one of the most influential women in professional sports. She's represented more professional athletes than any woman in the industry. In 2010, she was the first female agent to represent a top five NFL draft pick. She's a former national and world champion baton twirler. She's known for her relationship-driven approach, strategic preparation, and commitment to advocating for her clients on and off the field. She also is the author of her book, High Impact Life. I'm looking forward to a great conversation about negotiation, leadership, and overcoming adversity to operate at the highest level in professional sports. Welcome, Kelly Masters.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Thank you so much, Cliff. I'm I'm excited to get to join you here today.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

I appreciate your your time. It's always great to see you. We work together, and now it's interesting to do it in this format because you've done so much since the first time I met you.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

It's been a while. We both have. We've both been on quite a journey.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yes, we have. And I'm glad that we've always you've always stayed in touch and I appreciate that. So let's just talk about first, like, you know, you've talked about these and you wrote about it, but your career in sports, I mean, how did you baton twirler, Miss Oklahoma, trial lawyer to NFL agent, how did that all come together?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

That's a really good question, isn't it? That pathway doesn't seem to make sense. No, I my earliest memories in childhood were going to football games in Oklahoma. Football is king, which I'm sure Texas and Alabama and other states, Ohio, say the same, say the same thing. But truly, in in Oklahoma, football runs our schedules, it runs our lives. And I feel like everybody's a football fan here. Maybe that's not true, but it feels like it. So my earliest memories were football games with my family. My father was an attorney and was also a radio play play-by-play announcer. And so I got to listen to him call games. And that just was always part of my life. The funny thing is, though, it didn't dawn on me until much later in life that I would actually get an opportunity to have a career in sports. So my, you know, undergrad degree is in broadcast journalism. I was going to go into television, decided to go to law school actually after covering the uh O.J. Simpson trial, which was happening while I was a senior in college, and realized I wanted to go get a law degree and maybe use that expertise to go back into journalism. And then once I got to law school, never looked back. I knew I needed to practice law to really understand the legal system and see, you know, where where that would take me. And so in the middle of law school, I decided I was not going to go into any more debt and entered the Miss America pageant. Won scholarship money to pay my way through law school. I paid for law school. If anyone ever gives me grief about being a pageant girl or pageant queen, it it paid for law school. And of course, I used my baton twirling talent to do that. So it all kind of worked together. Um, you know, growing up as a going to football games, being a baton twirler, competing in baton twirling, but also, you know, twirling at football games. It was just being around sports was just always going to be part of my life, whether I knew it or not. And so I took all those experiences into law school and graduated from law school and started a very normal, very boring law practice as a trial lawyer. I did enjoy certain aspects of it. I did enjoy arguing in court. I did not enjoy the billable hours or the depositions. Well, I guess I enjoyed the depositions. I didn't enjoy the discovery process and just the billable hours that go into it. I wanted to reach a resolution. And at the same time as I was building my litigation career, I also loved or fell in love with working with nonprofit organizations. I had really sort of had this come to Jesus moment in the middle of law school where I just wanted to have purpose and wanted to make an impact with my life and with what I was learning. And I felt like I could do that as a litigator, but I also really wanted to use my legal expertise to help people who wanted to give back and make a difference. And interestingly enough, that led me to my true calling, which was working with athletes. I worked with my first professional athlete about five years into my law practice, really helping him with his foundation that he and his family had started when he was in college. And he had only played about a minute in the NFL, but I was fascinated by his journey. And it was actually his mom that looked at me and said, Where were you when we were interviewing agents? We would have loved to have met with someone like you. And that was really the first time my eyes were opened that that could be a career. I had seen, you know, Jerry Maguire, like we all have. And I watched that. I remember in law school, it never dawned on me that my career path would go that direction. But that's where it started with a conversation with a player's mom. And I got certified and hung out my shingle, so to speak, started my own company and the rest is history. That was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Unbelievable. And when you started based on that conversation with the player's mom, did you have a client or did you just become certified and you knew you wanted to do it?

SPEAKER_03 7:43

I did not have any football clients. That was the first time I'd worked with an athlete. And of course, growing up an athlete and growing up around football, it's it was fun to use my legal skills. But instead of the litigation world where every everyone's businesses and lives are falling apart and you're you're trying to fight over what you can save and what you can do and what you can accomplish. I I did love the advocacy side of that, but getting to use the advocacy and and uh protection skills that I had honed as a lawyer and use that for people whose dreams were coming true. Uh, at least in the beginning, they are. At the end, it's always difficult at the end of a football career. Uh, it never seems to end perfectly well. Uh, but I just the opportunity to use the skills that I had developed as a lawyer to help athletes in their careers as well as off the field and giving back and making an impact with their lives and their resources and their platforms. Just it was like the stars aligned. I just knew it was right where I was meant to be all along. And I'm so grateful that my path wasn't straight. I learned so much through all of the experiences that I went through. And I just knew I had discovered this is where I'm supposed to be. Now, I will say this at the time I had just become a partner in my litigation firm, about 60 men. And I think there were three of us women in the industry or in the firm, which didn't really bother me. It never bothered me being different. Uh, but I heard a lot of feedback from all of them when I decided to take the test to become a certified agent. They had to all tell me friends of theirs who had tried and had failed to become an agent, or how dirty the industry was, or I'd, you know, they couldn't see a nice girl like me being a football agent. And I think they pretty much all took bets that I would last about a year, maybe three at the longest, and still here, still, still doing it.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I love that you were able to build a business and kind of fulfill your life's mission. And you knew right away once you got into it that that's what it was going to be. I love that about you. And you know, when I read your book, uh, which I recommend everyone, High Impact Life, because it's about being excellent and being a leader and be good lifeless, not just about being an agent.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

In fact, there's other parts of it I I love that I'm gonna ask you about. But when I look at you in your life, it just and just what you just explained about that law firm every step of the way, you never took no for an answer. And that's what to me, like a lot of this is about like finding the best version of yourself. So when we're negotiation warriors, what does the word warrior mean to you?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

I love that question. First of all, I never ever want to take away from true warriors on the battlefield. I I have never had to sacrifice my life or put my life on the line uh for someone uh or for my country. And so mad respect to true warriors out there. But it's interesting, the name Kelly, my name means is Irish for warrior. And so I've I've been named a warrior from the day I was born and and all that comes with that. I've always felt like I have been uh a fighter for the things that I believe in and the people that I care about. And being a warrior means being persistent, and it doesn't mean uh being fearless. Uh I mean, part of you know, going into any sort of adversity or fighting for anything that's worth fighting for, you're gonna experience fear. You're gonna experience you're gonna have but without fear, you know, there's no reason for us to be courageous, right? Or to be bold. And so yeah, I think it's knowing what you believe in, knowing what you value, and being willing to to fight for it and and fight to protect that. And so yeah, that's that's being a warrior to me. And it's being persistent. I think that's one of the frustrating things now when I when sometimes I feel like I believe in young people who reach out to me, I believe in them more than they believe in themselves, that they're gonna have to be persistent. And it is interesting, most of the interns that have worked for me over the years did not get the internship position by by contacting me once. It was multiple emails, letters, LinkedIn messages, flying in to see me and take me to lunch. It was being persistent. And I identify that very quickly in someone, whether they're gonna make it in this industry or really into any industry. But the the willingness to be persistent and to be zealous about what you're what you're calling is is so important.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, I love that word. So persistent, that's something that you clearly had at a very early time in your career. Um, I always tell the students that reach out to me, PPPA. Persistent but polite, pain in the A. And I just tell them that's kind of the secret of keep following up.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

I'm writing that down. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

PPA, write that down. But yeah, that's a great word for you. Man, really, just all the things you've done, you know, you're so nice, right? Like everyone knows you, you smile all the time. Lawyers are are not do not have a reputation of being nice. How did you, even before you became an agent, how did you fit into that world?

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Oh my goodness. Just as an attorney and and with a smile on my face, and it's it's funny, growing up, some of my earliest memories, and maybe this is just how I was wired or maybe a little bit of how I was raised, I was very observant of how people reacted to being treated a certain way. And I remember even my five-year-old brain watching someone that I knew get mad and be mean to somebody and then have to go back and apologize. And I thought, well, why not just be nice in the first place? Why do you have to be mean and then go back and apologize? So that wired my brain to always be nice. Now, I will say this: I have learned in business and as a lawyer, uh, you can be kind and you can be nice, but not to a point where you become a doormat, not to the point where you lay down what you're fighting for. That's part of, you know, being a warrior. You don't have to be mean or loud or obnoxious to be a warrior. You can be nice, you can be kind, but you have to be principled. And so that's, you know, that's what has always driven me is can I be kind and can I be firm and principled at the same time? Because people say it all the time about sports, but it's true in a lot of industries. It's a relationship business. And if people like you, you know, you want them to respect you, obviously. But when people really genuinely like you and enjoy, you know, having conversations with you or don't run the other way when you're asking a question or wanting to have a conversation, it it does help if people like you. And you can be nice and kind while still having convictions and being firm. And so it to, you know, in my case, maybe have I been, you know, have I believed in the wrong people sometimes? Have I made missteps because I am nice? Sure. But I would rather be known for being kind and nice than the opposite. And I have found that has opened way more doors than trying to be a bully.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

You know, as we search for this ideal description of a great negotiator, you just highlighted something really important. You can be kind, respectful, be liked, and get the same results, actually, maybe even get better results. And I'm sure your clients know this.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yes. You know, I experienced that early on in my legal career when as a baby lawyer, I was asked to go take depositions, and it was in a an insurance bad faith case. And we got all the transcripts back from the depositions, and the the partners were reading the transcripts, going, How did you get these witnesses to you know make all these admissions? Like, how did how'd you do it? How did and I'm like, Well, I was nice. I didn't come in guns blazing. I came in and and disarmed them and smiled at them and asked still asked the tough questions, but they let down their guard and and I mean I hate to say it, but you know, made some admissions against their own interests, which sounds terrible, but it was so effective. It's so effective when you when you sort of break down those walls and have real conversations. And it's it's a an effective negotiation tactic as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yes. Nice. Listen to this, everyone. Nice is a negotiation tactic. And here's a perfect example of someone that has it naturally, but also knows when it's effective as opposed to combating, you know, brow beating, having animosity. What drove you, you know, like how does some how did you decide like I can do this, I can be a sports agent? What what drove you to succeed?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

It I mean, it really came from initially having a purpose for doing it and seeing it as okay, this is this is how I can make an impact on other people's lives. I can use my I may never have the resources or the platform to change the world, but if I can use the skills, the skill set that I have and the experience that I have, and I can help someone with a platform, with resources, with opportunity that can make a real difference, then that just exponentially grows my ability to impact lives. And when I I mentioned kind of my soul searching time during law school, I did come to this sort of, you know, crossroads of why am I in law school? Why am I doing that? Why, why have I achieved and been so driven my whole life? Where does that come from? And I realized I had really been in that place because I was afraid not to be. I was I lived in a lot of fear. I I was afraid of letting my parents down. Nothing wrong with wanting to please your parents or be excellent, nothing wrong with that or setting big goals. But if you're doing it from a place of fear, and what will people think if I don't do this? It's never gonna be enough. And I had reached that place where I just I felt like I was, you know, had achieved all of these goals that most people would have such admiration for, and yet I felt really miserable and empty and had no purpose and no hope. And I came to a place where I really flipped a switch and decided I'm not gonna be driven by this fear of failure anymore. I am going to say, what is it that is important to me? What's my purpose? And I'm going to to press into that. And I discovered, I didn't know what that looked like initially. This was when I was about 23, 24 years old. I didn't, it wasn't automatically like boom, you know, booming voice in the sky, you're going to be a sports agent. It was more a sense of, I know that what is important to me is to make a difference in people's lives, to use my time on earth to make an impact. And just by pressing into that every single day, that led me down that whole journey that we just discussed of me discovering where I was supposed to be. And I knew that I would be, I knew that I would impact lives. And I knew that I would be successful, and that looks different. Success and the the measure of success looks different for everybody. I knew I would be successful if I pressed in to fulfill my purpose of impacting lives and doing it with integrity and doing it with excellence. And it I didn't place a monetary value on that. I didn't say when I do a, you know, when I've done a hundred million dollars in contracts, then I'm successful. When I've represented the number one overall pick, then I've been then I'm successful. I really have measured it in what was the impact that I made on the lives along the way. When players call me back and now they're in their late 30s, early 40s, and their dads and their husbands and uh, you know, either, you know, out there running their own businesses or just making a difference in the community. And they call back and say, Thank you so much for believing in me and pouring so much into me back then. You know, I wouldn't be where I am today without your impact in my life. That's success. And that's that doesn't happen overnight. That's a like a lifelong commitment. So yeah, that's that's I knew I would be successful as a sports agent if I stuck to my purpose.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

You know, it's 2026, and you have earned the right to be in any room, like to represent any athlete to be a candidate to represent them. But you worked really hard to get to that point. Twenty years ago when you were first becoming an agent, a very high-profile agent approached you and said, Kelly, you can't do this. Yeah, there is no place for a woman in this industry. Tell us about this experience. How did that impact your drive and your perspective on the business and what kept you going?

SPEAKER_03 20:46

That was such a pivotal moment, and I share that moment a lot, even though in the moment I was angry, I was disheartened. So where it all went down, I was at my very first NFL combine, which for most people who follow sports know what that is, but it's it's basically a big audition for 300 or so of the top college football players that are are entering the draft and they go through this whole week of activities with medical evaluations and on-the-field workouts and bench press and interviews. And uh, they're basically applying for a job in the NFL. And so it's it's all the players, it's all of the, you know, the owners, the general managers, the front offices, the coaches, the scouts. I I laugh and say it's like all the testosterone in the world is crammed into downtown Indianapolis in about four square blocks. And during the combine, there's typically a meeting, one of the days where all the agents are in one big ballroom. And I think you've probably been in that room, like 900 sharks in one big ballroom. And it's just a required meeting every year if you're a certified agent, and the NFL PA basically gives this. State of the Union address and covers all the topics that are pressing for certified agents. And I was sitting in that room, you know, looking around, kind of feeling a bit insecure since it was my very first time to be there at the combine. And I walked out of the room, the ballroom, to sort of get some fresh air. And one of the one of the most prominent agents at the time, and still is, was standing out there talking to reporters. And he walked up to me, again, baby agent. Didn't know he had one client. And he walked up to me and said, You don't belong here. You know, what are you doing here? And women don't belong in this industry. Said, I mean, all of the inappropriate and sexist things that you can think of. And I was just shocked. I figured that there may be some people going, well, you know, there there weren't that many women had that had ever been agents at that time. I wasn't the first to be approached and told to my face that by someone who's very successful, by the way, that you're never going to be successful, that you're basically a joke to everybody here. And I had a choice to make in that moment. I could either take in what he was saying and going, you know what, you should know. You've you've been in this industry for a couple of decades yourself. You should know what works and what doesn't. But instead I stood up to him and I just said, you know what? You don't know me. You don't know why I'm here. You don't don't know what I'm capable of accomplishing. And how dare you tell me that I don't belong here. You don't know. You don't know what players in their families uh are going to want in every single situation. And you can't assume the worst. You're just gonna have to deal with me. I'm I'm maybe one of the first, but I'm definitely not the last woman to be in this industry. And, you know, gave it back to him and uh and walked away. And in that moment, of course, my my heart was pounding. I was so upset, so mad. And I walked away thinking, like, what a what an absolute jerk. But I also thought, you know, it's it's important to me now that I am even more determined. Not that I needed a, you know, an enemy or a naysayer. I didn't have to prove someone wrong, but I really wanted to. And I really wanted to, not just for me, but for every other person, not just a woman, but every other person who had been told they didn't belong, or that they couldn't accomplish their goals, or they didn't have what it takes. And it was just really important to me to stand my ground in that moment. And I've thought back on that moment many, many times of just you know what a what a turning point it was for me when I, you know, old Kelly, who was lived in a lot of fear, was very driven by fear and driven by the opinions and approval of others. Old Kelly would not have handled that well. A Kelly who is focused on purpose and making an impact and being right where I'm supposed to be, I was able to handle that situation.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well, that's great. And that's one of the the warrior qualities of you when it comes out, and how do you handle adverse situations like that the right way and without going too far, but also making your point and then look how far you've you've come? You know, and that that person gets to see that. I can't I imagine this happens a lot. Like you talked about the law firm and then this agent. How do you overcome these barriers with players, their families, more agent, team executives? How does being a female agent impact you? Is it a restriction? Is it an advantage? How do you how does this work for you?

SPEAKER_03 25:34

I'm gonna say it has changed a lot in the beginning, and and I remember kind of around the time it started to change. I remember initially I was pleasantly surprised that I did not get as much pushback from team executives, mainly because there had been women in executive roles prior to that. Donna Ponte is one that comes to mind. Amy Trask is another that comes to mind. Just some very uh respected women in the industry. And so the pushback wasn't really there. The pushback really came from other agents and then also from players and families that it was just something that they had never seen or thought about working with a woman as an agent. And in the first few years, I found myself very defensive of spending the first meeting explaining to them why, as a woman, I was capable of doing the job as agent. And I remember my first meeting with the parent of a player named Gerald McCoy, who was my first draft pick to represent. And he was number three overall. And I met my very first meeting with his dad, he looked at me as I was launching into my, you know, yes, I'm a woman, but I can handle this speech. He stopped me, he said, I'm gonna stop you right there. And Mr. McCoy was a strong man of faith. He he could quote the Bible, you know, at the drop of a hat. And he looked at me and he said, You are Deborah and you are Esther, which those are both strong women in the Bible. And he said, I don't want you to spend another minute defending yourself. I do not think less of you, and I do not think you are incapable of being a great agent just because you're a woman. You know, leave check that at the door and tell me what you're gonna do for my son. And flipped the the script from me. I thought, you know, I don't have to defend myself, I just have to be great at what I'm doing. And I need to stop thinking of it in those terms. Not to say that there still was adversity, but I think that flip and then me actually having that success on a pretty large stage sort of busted down that barrier. And now, you know, well over a quarter of applicants every year to become certified agents are women. It may be more now. There are women having success in the industry like never before. And it really is no longer, I don't think it's a barrier to entry, and it's not a barrier, you know, when you're meeting with clients or trying to get recruiting meetings with clients and families. They don't they don't think less of an agent because you're, you know, man, woman or you know, anything about you. I I think the the two things that I will say is number one, some families and some players just would prefer to work with a man. And that's not being sexist. That's just a personal comfort level. That's a personal preference. If you ask most of my athletes, they just wanted the best person for the job. Some of them will say, I specifically wanted to work with a woman. And so it's not, it's not that there's sexism against it. It's not that there's a stigma against a woman agent. It's more personal preference of who does the player and the family feel comfortable working with? Who do they feel like they can trust most? And so that barrier, I think, is gone. I would say the barrier to entry now in the business, and and this is evolving, uh, is how are you how are you gonna go about recruiting? Are you willing to do it with integrity? Are you going to try to buy off clients? Are you going to try to skirt the rules? Are you going to do things by the book? And so there's it, you know, it is. I was told when I got in the business, it's a very cutthroat industry. And I think, Cliff, you've seen it. It's beyond cutthroat. It's in some elements corrupt. And from a financial, you know, outlay standpoint, it's it's very hard to do business with integrity and be successful. And I think that's been the biggest challenge that I've faced is I still want to do things the right way and with integrity. And that that has been increasingly difficult just because of the nature of the industry. I will say that I feel like things are shifting. And a lot of that has to do with name, image, and likeness and how the entire landscape of football and college football and now even high school football is changing. I think that is actually opening the door for people who want to do things the right way. It's it's both. I mean, the corruption's still gonna be there. But now, and I don't know that we have time in this podcast, maybe that's another conversation to get into how the landscape has changed because of name image and likeness.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

You know what though? I think it'd be great to hear your perspective and why that's gonna help too. Because I I have my thoughts on it and I'm doing some work in it. But from your side as as an agent, who, you know, look, I I admire you so much for having the values you have and being able to stay in it this long. I I was an agent. I don't know that I could have endured it the way you have. So yeah, talk a little bit about that. Um I'm I'm very I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in hearing your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Sure. So probably like a lot of college football enthusiasts like me, when Name Image Electas first started, when everything changed in the summer of 2021, uh it I knew it was coming. I knew that it had been had been coming for a long time. Uh and as my uh one of my friends, coach Barry Switzer, called NIL, he said, Yeah, Kelly, it's been around forever, but now it's legal. That's what NIL means, is now it's legal. That players are actually getting paid and it's it's on top of the table instead of under the table. But initially, I I was really concerned about what it would do. And of course, it has entirely changed college football in a lot of ways. But NIL initially was really just compensation for name, image, and likeness. It was gonna allow players to not just make money for their school, but make money based on, you know, being able to do commercials, being able to do, you know, autograph signings and trading cards and marketing deals. And I remember, you probably remember this as well, the NCAA, their initial guidelines basically said, okay, we're we're gonna be okay with this, but it can't be used for recruiting and schools can't be involved in it. And of course, that has completely changed to the point where now college football, certainly at the division one level, you know, the with PowerFour conferences and group of six conferences, it's professional football. And the schools have now gone to, you know, there's a salary cap in place, there's a hard cap and and soft cap in place. There are every you know, school that I now work with has a front office. And a lot of those members of the front office, the general managers, the salary cap managers, the you know, scouting directors, they're all a lot of times they're from the NFL. And so we're really seeing an evolution of college football and becoming like the NFL in so many ways. For the first few years, I stayed away from NIL. I stiff armed the idea. I thought that's the Wild, Wild West. I'm gonna stick to something that's regulated, at least in theory, and represent just players going into the draft. And what I saw, Cliff, was I was signing players who had been paid by collectives in college, had really no guidance, no agent or no real agent. Maybe a family member tried, or their family's friend who's an attorney, tried, but didn't really understand the nuances of the industry. And then not a lot of financial planning. Even though schools were trying to educate players, they were not being treated as professionals. And I took on a couple of players who had signed really bad contracts and had not put any money back for taxes. And I thought that was my wake-up call when I went, okay, I see that this is not me as an agent, you know, taking advantage of college athletes. But college athletes and even now high school athletes needed, they need professionals. They need people who know what they're doing who can help them navigate really what is amounting to professional athletics. And it's for the most part pretty unregulated. There are regulations, obviously, but there's no collective bargaining agreement. There are no rules around really free agency, so to speak. There's certainly eligibility rules and transfer portal and all of those things. But, you know, I think you and I both know it's going to be a constant evolution for a while. And we're going to see things continue to change and evolve to meet the demands of the industry. And so what but what I've seen now is I get to start having conversations with players at way younger ages, high school, you know, freshmen in college, sophomores in college, before they start getting sort of influenced by the culture of sports agent world, the NFL draft. And they're so ready and eager to listen and to learn and to trust, like find people they can trust. And it was getting to a point where to recruit a top pick in the draft, you would have to come in and basically show several things. You'd have to show, obviously, again, this is assigning like a day one, day two player out of college into the NFL draft, a solid client list, you know, multiple first-round picks in the last multiple last few years, a financial investment of sometimes seven figures just in a signing bonus or a marketing advance. So spending putting a million dollars into a player, though, those were the main things that were being looked at is who's your client list, who's on your roster, and how much money are you gonna give me? And that's what it took. And oh, by the way, I'm not gonna pay you more than half a percent on my contract for the first contract. So if you're looking at that as me, like me, a small business owner, not a massive, you know, multimedia company, which is where the agent business has been for a while now with the larger entertainment and media companies buying up football agencies and operating basically at a loss every year, just hoping to get to those veteran contracts. As a small business owner, I'm looking at trying to sign a player that I might, who maybe goes in the first round, who I might make $200,000 over the next five years, but I'm supposed to invest over a million dollars in him up front to not even see that back in the first five years, in the hopes that he doesn't get injured, that he's still in the league in five years, that I'm still his agent in five years. And so from a business model perspective, it was a very, very broken system, still is a very broken system. But now, with Name Image Alikeness, as a small business owner, I can recruit and start doing great work for younger athletes. And it's it's it's actually it operates as a business, a profitable business, not a nonprofit. I love my nonprofits that I work with. I don't need to operate one. And by the way, a nonprofit organization actually does make profit. It's just how it's treated from a tax standpoint, or it has to, otherwise, it doesn't function. But now representing athletes on the in-name, image, and likeness side, I can actually do great work and I can operate as a professional with a business model that makes sense. And out of all of those young athletes that I get to work with, some will go on to the NFL and I'll already have that trusted relationship with them where I've actually done great work for them. And they're not looking at me going, Kelly, just pay me a million dollars and I'll sign with you for the draft. Now those relationships, those real trust and business relationships start at a younger age and an earlier time and can last years. And you know what? Even if a player doesn't project to the NFL, he has maximized his opportunity in college and is set up for success. If I have done my job, then he is set up for success whether he enters the NFL or not. And so for me, it is just a win-win all the way around. I get to work with amazing athletes and families. I get to help them do great work, whether they go to the NFL or not. And I'm not stuck in a broken business model. That's that's how I see things, at least from my perspective, that's how I see things changing. Is that going to revolutionize the industry? Maybe. Uh it certainly revolutionized things for those of us who are trying to do things with integrity and do things the right way.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Well, you're getting into it. You're doing those things with with all the right intentions. I see a huge advantage for you because you you've already gone through all the screening process, your experience, you're certified. Like you said, it's unregulated. I would if I had a student athlete as a child right now, I would sign them with you today. Um and also, you know, you didn't mention this, but you know, and I know this isn't why you do it, but those relationships are gonna bloom and blossom, and some of them will become professionals or their colleagues will.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

And so you're giving them life advice, you're giving them advice on how to live a high impact life, and you're fulfilling your mission without all necessarily all the things that make the professional level not for everyone, you know, um savory.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

So that's that's great. I I love that perspective. So I have so many questions, you know. In your you know, and I think of your book, like the one thing I did really love about high impact life was you you you're a humble person. Clearly, that's a core value for you. Uh you embrace excellence, which is also a core value for you. But you don't just write a book and you don't just tell success stories. You actually openly talk about mistakes that you have made.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

What can you tell us? What are some of the key mistakes that you made and that you've learned from that might teach others?

SPEAKER_03 39:57

You know, some of the some of my biggest mistakes were made when when I trusted the wrong people because I doubted my own ability. Uh, and I doubted that I could do it, even though I felt called and I, you know, deep down I knew I was equipped, but I would start to second guess myself and question myself. And because I would do that, I would sometimes override uh that check in your gut that you're like, maybe I shouldn't trust this person, but I really do need them. I need I need this person on my team, or I need to trust this situation. Um and I never it was always important to me never to compromise who I was. But there were certainly times when I didn't, when I didn't believe in myself uh as much as I should have. And I second guessed myself when I shouldn't have. And so I I think the the lesson in that, first of all, the lesson is um it's never failure is never the end. And you're not a failure if you fall flat on your face, or if you if you have a failed situation or you know, a contract that falls apart or a situation that falls apart. It's unless you just wallow in that and give up, that's not the end. And so one of my friends and one of my dearest friends, actually, and a mentor to me looked at me after one of the worst moments in my life, which is when I got fired by a client uh that I believed in so much and cared about so much. And I could not believe that I had been fired. And uh my mentor looked at me and said, What's the lesson? And my initial response was, there's no lesson. This is just terrible. There's nothing to learn here. This is just, you know, this is just my worst day. But he was right. Every single time there's been a setback or a mistake uh or a failure, it's an opportunity to learn and grow. And some of the lessons that I learned over time, I mean, learning to really value everybody and not putting all your eggs in one basket. I I think I was so terrified. I when I when I signed my first big client, I was so terrified of losing him that it affected every other area of my life. And I did not maintain, I just thought, well, balance is just a myth. All of my priorities kind of got misaligned because I I was so scared of losing this one client. And it really did everything for him. I I didn't allow him to grow. There were things that I I could have just helped him understand how to do and then he could do for himself. And instead, I just did everything for him. And in that, I didn't value my own time. I didn't value my own, my my other clients, to be honest. The other areas of my law practice suffered, my my personal life suffered uh because I got, yeah, I was so, again, I let fear, uh fear of losing, uh get me kind of out of balance with everything. And so I think it's um evaluating every situation. Am I prioritizing the most important things in my life, not losing sight of, you know, I'm big, I'm still not a big balance person. I think balance is is difficult. I think priorities are more important. I think prioritizing your faith, prioritizing your family and your mental and physical health, those things should be prioritized. And then really looking at who all am I am I called to serve? And am I appropriately valuing all of these people? And am I appropriately valuing my time and their time and the relationships and the responsibilities that I have. And I think the times that I have made the mistakes are number one, when I didn't trust my own gut and I trusted the wrong people. And number two, sort of getting out of that place of priorities and balance. And those are just hard lessons that all of us learn, that I'm still to a certain extent learning. I'm still, you know, now I have a it's not just me. KMM Sports for a long time was just Kelly Mouse. And now it's a team. And I've had to learn how to be a leader, even more so than ever. I had always known that I was meant to be a mentor and a leader for my athletes, but now I'm a mentor and a leader for my team as well. And learning how to let them, let them stumble and learn on their own and not do everything for them, not protect them from a certain to a certain degree, but also not enable them. And everybody has to grow and everybody has to learn. And I've learned more and more the mistakes that I have made as a leader is when I have, when I have not allowed the people around me to learn their, to learn things on their own and to make the mistakes, maybe sometimes that I did. And I've enabled, been an enabler. And that's something that I'm still learning how to do is show people how to be great, expect greatness from them, but you don't have to hold their hand. And uh that's been probably the biggest lesson I've learned recently.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Wow, this is like a this is a master class in overcoming adversity. I mean, you really look how much you learned and and how this version of you came out from even that one incident and your mentor telling you, what did you learn? I remember when I when I was fired, I got a call from a former coach and he said, Congratulations on your adversity. And that's what I was thinking of when you just explained that story. Like all of these great things that you reflected on, you thought about, and you changed and you became better, and now you're passing it on to others as a leader, as a as a mentor, as an agent. I love that. Just two more questions. One, whatever you can share, if any, most difficult negotiation you ever had, and how you worked through it.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

The two of my most difficult negotiations came with the same player, actually, with a tight end for the Dallas Cowboys. The first one was he was set to become was Blake Jarwin. He was set to become a restricted free agent. He had started off undrafted, practice squad, got elevated, played for a couple of years. You know, Jason Whitten retired, Jason Whitten came back. So Blake had had some, some, you know, starting experience, not a ton, but had done great things with the opportunities that he had earned. And so we were in the middle of a negotiation of he was, again, about to be, you know, tendered as an RFA, restricted free agent. And Dallas had given me an offer at the, they had made an offer at the beginning of that season going into that year. And at the end of the year, when I just knew that the offer would be better, the offer was the same. And it was well below what my expectation was, and well below what the research that I had done showed me. And so, uh, you know, through that time, I was dealing with, of course, Stephen Jones, Stephen and Jerry, mostly Steven, and the other, you know, other guys that I have tremendous respect for Adam Prasivka and Will McLay there with Dallas. But they wouldn't budge and I wouldn't budge. And I was demanding, based upon my research, based upon my preparation, which of course is so, so key for any negotiation, is really, really understanding your the other side's position, understanding what was important to us, what understanding what our baton was, knowing what our what are we willing to give up in order to get what we really, really want. Those are some of my negotiation tactics that I lean on heavily, mostly preparation and just being really, really well versed in what the other side can and can't do and what they want and what we want. We were very far apart. And it came down to a meeting at the NFL Combine on the famed Dallas Cowboys bus, which I'm sure you saw many times, a lot of negotiations, and I'm sure other crazy activities happen on that bus. But we were meeting on the bus to discuss the contract, and I held my ground and I said, look, we are not going below at the time, and this sounds low right now, but this was, you know, for a tight end who barely had any starting experience back in 2019, and I said, we will not go below 7 million average per year. Uh new money. And their their guaranteed their salary or their the signing bonus they had offered was a million dollars. The total package was a little over 9 million for three years. I held my ground and we we fought for weeks, if not months. But then after I made my case with Adam, with Steven, within a few short weeks after that, it was actually on March 13th of 2020. I remember it because it was right around the time the world also shut down due to COVID. We got Blake's deal done and we got 7 million average per year new money, and we got a $4 million signing bonus. And the total uh total deal was $24.25 million over three years. So um still probably my most, you know, not the biggest negotiation, but probably one of my most proud moments of my life. Before that, the harder one, well, one of the other harder negotiations was for Gerald McCoy because that was under the old, old CBA. And, you know, people who are maybe newer to the industry, if they remember back then in 2010, his rookie contract was over 63 million dollars for a rookie. That's just you know, obviously doesn't happen anymore. Won't for a while, maybe soon, but uh that was back in 2010, and that's back when you know rookie contracts were a lot more involved, as you recall.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yes, absolutely. That's amazing. Well, the tight end too, like I'll just say for people listening, like it's a very it's one of the lowest paid positions, and the markets even in 2023 when I was still doing it, the top tight ends on the free agent market couldn't get seven million. It do it it it totally crashed that year. So yeah, that's that's that's a great story. Thank you for sharing it too. Yeah. The last question I ask everyone, and I'm gonna ask you, and some of it you've talked about, but just to sum up, what are the key traits of being a great negotiator?

SPEAKER_03 50:12

I think I probably rattled off several of them when we were just talking. Number one, be incredibly prepared, be thorough in your preparation. I think that's one, just someone who's being who's overly prepared. Have a strong walk away. No, it I mean that you you have to have that. That best alternative to negotiated agreement, you've got to have that locked in. That gives you strength, that gives you leverage. And then no know what your, I don't know exactly what I would call it, but what is it that you're what is your hill that you want to die on? Yeah, what is what is the absolute gonna dig my heels in, we're gonna get this, or or we're walking away. What is your absolute biggest issue and what are you willing to sacrifice to get that? And I think those are probably my main keys. It's not being loud, it's not being obnoxious or mean, it's being thorough, being prepared, and really, really understanding your position.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

So well said, Kelly. And that's why you're also uh you're also a teacher, right? You're you're were you adjunct professor where?

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah, uh I've taught at OCU Law School and OU Law School.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

I can tell it helps a lot to get that perspective. Really, really appreciate your time. Thank you for being a trailblazer. Thank you for paving the way for so many other women agents in all sports that came after you. Thank you for your book and everything you teach us about reflecting on how to be a better person, how to make the most out of life, your values, your clients are very lucky to have you, and we are very lucky to have you on this show. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Thank you so much, Cliff. Great to see you as always.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Great to see you.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

Take care.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Thank you for listening to Negotiation Warriors. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe on the Negotiation Warriors YouTube channel. Follow us at FrontOffice 360 on Instagram and at find out our helping college athletic programs at front office 360.com.