'פרוטוקול פתוח #4: פחד מהצלחה, התנגדות לשינוי ומדעי הנפש | אורלי איצקוביץ

למה ברגע שהכל סוף סוף מסתדר לנו בחיים, משהו בפנים דוחף אותנו להרוס את זה? האם אנחנו באמת 'מחבלים בעצמנו' או שיש פה מנגנון הגנה עמוק והרבה יותר חכם מש אנחנו חושבים?

השבוע ב'פרוטוקול פתוח', אני מארחת את חברתי הקרובה, אורלי איצקוביץ' – פסיכולוגית קלינית מומחית, שמביאה איתה ניסיון של 18 שנה בטיפול, מתוכן שבע שנים מורכבות במרכז לבריאות הנפש 'שלוותה'.

בשיחה אינטימית, מקצועית וחשופה, אנחנו צוללות אל המושגים המושתקים של הטיפול הפסיכולוגי ומפרקות את התופעות שכולנו חווים ביום-יום:

• התנגדות לשינוי: למה הגוף והנפש שלנו מעדיפים לפעמים להישאר במקום רע ומוכר, מאשר להתקדם למקום טוב אך לא ידוע?
• האובדן שבתוך ההצלחה: למה הצלחה, התקדמות או עושר כלכלי מביאים איתם לפעמים פחד עמוק מאיבוד הזהות הישנה ומשינוי הדינמיקה עם האנשים הקרובים אלינו?
• הגנות או חבלות? איך ללמוד להסתכל על ה'חלקים ההרסניים' שלנו לא מתוך אשמה ושיפוטיות, אלא מתוך חמלה והבנה שהם נולדו פעם כדי להגן עלינו?

אורלי מזכירה לנו שהנפש שלנו היא מערכת חכמה ומורכבת, ושמאחורי כל 'תקיעות' או דחיינות מסתתר סיפור שלם שפשוט מחכה שנקשיב לו – גם למה שנאמר, ובעיקר למה שלא. האזנה נעימה!

תודה ענקית שהאזנתם ל־פרוטוקול פתוח.
אם הפרק הזה עשה לכם סדר, עורר מחשבה או נתן כיוון חדש –
אשמח שתשתפו אותו עם אנשים שחשוב להם בריאות מבוססת מדע.

אל תשכחו לעקוב אחרי הפודקאסט,
 לדרג אותנו ב־5 כוכבים בספוטיפיי ובאפל פודקאסטס,
 זה עוזר לפודקאסט להגיע לעוד מאזינים.

לעדכונים, תוכן נוסף ושיח פתוח –
 אפשר לעקוב אחרי באינסטגרם:
 https://www.instagram.com/bodyholicdi/

לתגובות, מחשבות או פניות בנוגע לשיתופי פעולה וחסויות,
 אפשר לכתוב ל־
 aviScast@gmail.com

נתראה בפרק הבא.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Bruhima Bay Protocol Patoak Orli at Larim Latzmi. Okay, Bonasekadaba, Kmochan Yo Evete. Anid barahti Yeshli Bemet Khaverim Me od Magnivim. Okay? And your madla km sero. And lodat mass city tov a valeshti khaverim shen yoshevtiam bani pesim, tzhana rimeta lesset mea ritback, and need hemet. Okay, zebemet kilo Azem million vaheti chana, martilikret, itzkovich. She tot la sodbeha de podcast perek mashuana geonochila la ore afal zeshaan de verte laaka. Annyomate la FTZN Breira. Anny loma kirana shim kmo orly ba ba kolkah, amuka, vevena, al nefashadam. As orly a psychologic clinit mumkit at metapellet be kon psychotherapia dinamit. Gisha dinamit. Gisha dinamit. Okay. Gisha tip. Okay. An yatsauriga vanyagid sh aim aitha. Ken. Ken, Laura ke ait gamba miyun, veit gamba mil palavyotan efesh, weight gamba makhlakas gora.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Khan. A city tmahhuta is posi maklakas gorasham, and ish outilla vocham and the time be maklek meun veshayazanikas. The gam miyun, shall sham game gam the shpus katar, it was katar shall commina, the gamisham mirpaakazot lit de pulbematavemash be pool intensive vodbirpa a brutanaf share vata a valley mirpa shit.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Ken loli share can varze.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

B regas nay butash rovers mancha vatibishal vata vatigam beklink a pratiya a vadihat see Mr. Shambhatsi Msra prati. Avale anigarabia zebran. As Codem cole Zraok. Ken. Avalia share bater not lava vochumatemakomem, you had beef net's more Vigam Avodab clinical prati me od Levad, mm hmmata weit. Shall vata yes let's shit pat hoot, yes. Psychiatrium shall makote avail mobam gammit a plumbiti pull psychoti machinika. Wow. As a failati pullbedibour, shall have a name shall talk him shakombe to mashumanian bishvily and marihatha game shortly. As can the commode basis in the arbishanim, well what I'm showers and him lift nails and fish but soft short machut, shall have you like. Why is the bat of a tismoon as the shelano? The dead himoti. But can we come a saother?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

And he often clearly at your data and bonnet a la nashim van emethering at onal inside, uh, six matzlihim, or she matzlihim as a sheet metore fit Aniloy Lachov She Loch Nesa Kiru Abena, and Mazalbish, and Latim Z Rua Twitch.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

As Lomuda, Mr Supreme Let's Menu, or Mr. Khoshvimalav, O'Colmash, yes, come in Khalakim, and conflict machine. So it's a mishelaat's name. So, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

At shav, she needly eta dirichilu anir shav law at the lam lois the killer shav betochabala, and pachad, vaznat shem it nakdut.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Borush is the packad, the lazhalik. The lotamid called pachad, can I call me for m khabelat's the kilo yamalolo? Can you lam it shumete the beti pulsam get away? As la tet ma com laut la talikim.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Sh kilo braga a temperatura kta laya termidae as kilo lo lolo or a filo thermostat o share shilo lo lolo lololo and la hola girasham kilo lo chola l'ot me shall me die Zenorato Babina.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Shef Ch Elhoshav Joseph Pamkacha Thermostat Osher Watslecha. Mhm, and her shivchek a regishuchlano le zek mole mashiko andok shareim erze machanette er shemit simala, can lezesh thermostat batuchumit shameze oh shame shekashalem li atum com tov.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Atiodatani con cole of danchel as the margeshliuk a mok I Zemanian canita mit Hashatize ke pachad Mikishalon. Aval pachad mikishalon, shavni schmali kmo kilo delgahat Avalmaz Pahad Mikishalon. The gam zea za lazev the kesher benishy cut ereton. A k shrim the shutuan yumerit let's smear shab canilokart the a likey a prisma shell and moir shili teot. Kino remli mahar di atolakit lyot celeb shavam million dollarim ve cola yomati mulamatzle mot.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

A gavregal mashushamaat kodem shall nashim shhenagid kiashanashim nagi and shavitika, kiraka elemika, shabetkashella mlotwem com tov. Keshlem Shemathiotlem Tov Bhaim Zhidutamimakom shall shall Khavayote Mufnamo shall shita Betov as Mashuhze Nifga, Nifgalecha, ne raslicha, Zegampachajo, Imiashlecha mashutehola, bedarbeoteh. She call me a bit him and the varze.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Gamiashata Ulay eta ebachel lomagiali.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Zenoa shoot barriga, hum the brim decklefanehata. Mazekariamar pachad bekishalon. Koterit. Mazeki shallon matrix.

unknown 21:58

And a

SPEAKER_01 23:38

But at the summer deut the Calyuterla Gedwala Lempajut Mika Blimbatman, Vani Locazotve.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Wow. Look at the Shli at Sabima lale ani loavit li tekabe pkakima vali ashli sod, ba p kakimani shhomat podcast team super matzhikim bazani filo sasha podcast. Load rage kiani ani khoshevich z ehoshevich ze ha gancha shuim shilat sabim shlanoshim. Kize kta kamo ba internet kilo loro im kulkachet a panim a zilo zilo atelot volem mishu and na ain mul ain vita khilikalelo to ava telegama tits fo vita kalel beto. Anilomer be matches, can she froks and bite m and televisia or batilikanes la Kenon vehia mete bidou kershani effoshe anakno niknasim la kignon. Vez basmanchani nichnesset Michi Ola ni kilo La Vaumer Yemena Ketla la. Shella Shella iam wala a lot, vani ou rede, banatif Shella kiesh pomasing. Okay. Azani azani ruashi ou sali kazne gesto tima imaya dime sh kilo at tumats, tumats, tuma mats, tuma, kaze zegambarochi gam raki koret y officials fatime azani rahwa medatli. Aze egati, kilo a vartiota, at sarti patarti kalon, vea martila ma aze aziam ra tishtam shi brochilah, at roasha niola, lama at lo utseret. Bazamartila kiposhuta etasha masa eita az beetzem im lait yo vertotah lo echhat lavo. Tov beseder.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Kenima machmashkiav. Kenan ki Atlam na salit khamek mea.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Lefekh. Ez a basashva nesi ya sotka yma ya dime bats, bo snianish, and yes b. Gambali, kilo bali gam lorut and vini, and nisitila zorlah kapara. Lovim shihlalgi l'seret verega lo gav khemla. Loki lama loki a kheret kilo anaknustamis to vimim anda nashele lonema. And sefek zekhole laleketha ken zhe zedavare mm madim li rote regga. Zetukhemet ba bazam sh ba ba kim specifit anim kh shovli o sele sim lo ridit khalon. Gambad govot kola anonimi khshav sh ba ba Facebook anonymi ze anoni ek uh uhrycat.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Colmin uh I love music.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Colmin, chemon nimke I love I love music Mignanot Wow Eza de Vazekilo le velifgoa la mod maye a halonak t the hui o a dguvota a Facebook a anonimi tita tzabim. Ma'am se manim Ezniraba shetach Benadam mitnaged. Ahshawa mati.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

If you like as a kiloze velorze. Ugam loritse. Kilu hole de beratzone valley folta lorotze. Kilo leme mut negame. Kilumishu noza chino. Ehne Duguma. Ken Dugumale Siman. Legame.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Ken dahianut zeme dahiyanutkam.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Otwam advarimanem rukovim, butegasha ta kilo notene simani kilo simanata made sha gimashu zevzi emashuha. Mazatomerit. Ki sha niro eta nefesh z super khamakma. As a dwarimem law tumid nagidani chemishu mach semanchu mitnaged. Avalo shim shimakim is a lob shame mit ngdim. As ashi madhimbe and Ibachaim n therbize aval gambe ti pull gamball ze shen be met siman. Ulate de var call the call micreleguf fourval. Having said that, if Charlotte de Berecleam kiz a taller.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Kia pami be met kanire matzbial matzav khat pami.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

No, Borosh, mashu khazarati mashu, lista kel, ken. Gam sham t'h lista kel velu itnak doot. Tariq lista kel to meid willen, lolach litefnate mistakel.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Aval ze holiot ze holiot masha marty, shabenadam ommer mashu, aval poel mashua keld my od man yan me odshaarbihlal, leameneta marecheta rikshichilanu la chil eta et slahabitwa briayote to vaioter tot la zeno toim koshichikarz milamen yen it and shichef shar ligdol gamito.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Shelcha. Lodat him to koshikmo latzleh la chiloto, aske de latlichhlachil mashutat'sugali sta kela love, chukyam can. Masha bepa m shimloidim bichlal Vhereze latlichh, shulocopam she uleki ilu if ilotalasot comid rimke day lit gonan befanav, or layfoto, or hadman varim sh Loma shrim ifash, ilu Lathil Chevet the talik, modoro, kilochevet him odhalakim shelha. Latzmicha, besof mitsuut Maranu Kminad varim, was thevet gumim the lumi votel had long mozito shenium zotlatzlich, the game out of gamlier zot, we gam lolir zot, Lirzotlatzleh, availirzot litrach me covimelov, or l'irtlatzleh, well yes dwarimba the uta could mod to vimlo and himlo. And it shelly lamin, shrimg dolim baim, y cholim la sot beboom. As the holy oot bhut sh the beboom, uh, which talik pneumish lit came, bepa mim na gidba, fully dunchel magic, and loyakore, colour man, and colmina tzla hot pit om meyo, shavchomni la niki call reality nation. The az the hole for the gam, trigamat's atta, lam betak bolam kaze kazuagam khasifa, valgambo lam is ki, atzlacha, ilom oftiha tzivut. Zgam doesh as the mukun, shazitalich, shot tzhlot beshhelav, yeshan shim shalop shalemzef pam, canash. Yeshan shim sha shalomatim lime lyot be beze anilo anilochin shashan shim shalomatim lam lyot me mkom tov bhaim shelem, avaulamkom tov Bhaim shlam the lolliot mefusam, khasuf Baochlet Lomatim Lakulam Avalyash Avalani Hoshevich Fshar imtalich nchhon vimidbonut vim shelot kenot vamitsot pnima ifshar Latslich Lachil Gamshinuimgdolim Khaim ve Khyuvim kino in the Imaya Yoshev po chmeani Ksheny Martze imayaoshev anni koshetlat'mi kilo imze mankal shelhevram me odgdola shha vad kashek ze Zabanam shin koshet la Vagav imaoshev pohashav Veomere omerlach Ani Murgishani o yeva higadol shelatsmi.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Anipishoto maito mereto. Ati shall to my shit.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Codim callshiva. Mm-hmm. Codum call.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Vaslishma ishola giddles.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Vinam is a clum. Venigamamina mashanashim.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Kilo Avalat Gam Shomat it mashem lomrim. Velachenat gamamina kia tere te collasta. No, shiv mashem lom.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Ken. Oh, then anashim lomrim to me it mashab mash mbe met kolava yashele. Ken, em gam em shalle. M lo dimlifami. Aval Aval Ken Yashlimashu gamuaval gamlerali from him kilo gamegam Macbill Otti and Shani odmak shivale machan shonilochiloi at Tohe Nat's mota devar Khashovlachbo Aval Ken Benadam Merbo Mashu is a koshi as a conflict, shive godem.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

An iso de banu venisity la sema tatsmirega banalim shelah we Amartilak Kmosani omerit. She matavim shani erlat mishem IT him come, I t go sesset mishamum. Pashot go sess it mum. Can you erlat me matav sh bob and a dam your shavitzleh, maze tipulza khamishim the cot or bamashimfaret et hayoma vodashelo mashu kilo when isohere chamartli ve kilo marty ko kaha bed varim shin is shruiti gamayomarte avalani lon anilomish tam met miza. Kibe et se mashumaniano tache ma benadam la mere kilo.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Ibenadam ya favoritli ta yo miom shallurita super Ila. Examti examin. Kede lolagid.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Mikirata sefer all the places you'll go. Can she doctor source seferze him shilesh motele famim vanigam shehaim gamodo avimita seva'imikolkah ho de sefere anlodin kulamo avim avalani Anikolkach. Vanikamovane yeshhezhem theomerete shemochel banot specifiteta bacheli a valani you'll fly high, you'll fly with the rest of them. And then you won't. And then you'll get stuck behind. And you'll be hanging on a tree. And then you'll get into a rut. And you'll try to get out. Because you're sefer, you wanted to get sof woman, betishim vesia.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Can you be vritpnoted? Avail the sefer.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Sefer me memory, amukim, but she's made a little bit more. Sefer la rube itrascuyot brig Asi.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Man yeah, itrascuyot brigade, and sefer a la zrimashim.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Nahon at mushlim outti early.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Can lot me fiouti beva.