Talk2Tamara
Hosted by therapist and coach Tamara, Talk 2 Tamara creates space for the conversations that often go unspoken. Drawing from her life as a mother, wife, and member of the Orthodox Jewish community, Tamara explores real stories, complicated questions, and the moments that shape who we are. This podcast is about naming what’s beneath the surface and making room for deeper understanding, connection, and growth — because some things deserve to be said out loud.
Talk2Tamara
Marriage, Loneliness & Intimacy Real Talk with Dr Lauren Orthodox Therapist | Talk2Tamara
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Marriage, Loneliness & Intimacy Real Talk with Dr Lauren Orthodox Therapist | Talk2Tamara
We're BACK! 🎙️ After a technical issue delayed Part 1, Dr. Lauren —
PhD in Clinical Psychology and known as The Orthodox Therapist — finally
joins us for the full conversation we've all been waiting for.
In this episode, we dive deep into:
✅ Why people feel MORE lonely in marriage than when they were single
✅ The unrealistic expectations we bring into marriage
✅ Why self-work matters MORE than couples work
✅ Pre-marital counseling — does it actually help?
✅ Intimacy, physical connection & what nobody talks about
✅ How the Jewish community approaches relationships & therapy
✅ The pressure men face around sex (and what's actually realistic)
✅ Should you ever share your sex life with friends?
Whether you're single, dating, engaged, or married — this episode will
give you a completely new perspective on emotional connection and what
it really takes to build a healthy relationship.
🔔 Subscribe so you never miss an episode!
👍 Like this video if it helped you
📲 Find Dr. Lauren:
Instagram: @theorthodoxtherapist
Website: www.theorthodoxtherapist.com
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marriage advice, loneliness in marriage, orthodox therapist,
Follow Tamara on Instagram @Talk2Tamara, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform for new episodes on relationships and personal growth. Watch new episodes on Youtube and visit my website for coaching and 1:1 support.
I actually wanted your take on the new, I guess it's a more recent phenomenon of people getting divorced a week or two after marriage. I myself have met three people in the last couple of months. One was married for a week.
SPEAKER_02But typically when I've heard that, it's when one person was hiding something. Usually, when they're working with me, I'm able to get the other spouse to come to the table. Even if it's just for a conversation, typically, the fact that there's apps for this now is scary.
SPEAKER_01Right. Like people that you know that are married, whether happily or not, are publicly out there asking for others. So you know what's interesting if we're talking about the same one, I don't know if we are, we're probably that they showed their face way around. You know how people are like, my kids are my entire world? Like, no, your kids shouldn't be your entire world. They should be a part of your world, they should be important in your world, but they should not be your entire world. And and I think for women especially, um, they make that their entire identity almost.
SPEAKER_02So it's so interesting. This is, I'm telling you, this conversation just came up yesterday.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I'm Tamara, a therapist and coach that's exploring relationships, emotional health, faith, and real life challenges that many of us were taught to keep private. Together, we'll talk honestly about the questions, the struggles, and experiences that many of us carry quietly and finally give them a place to be spoken out loud. You are listening to Talk Tomorrow. Hello, everybody, and welcome back. So, as promised in January, we had a technical issue with the episode that I did with Lauren. And I promised everybody that there would be a part two because there was so much good stuff that was left out. So I'm happy to announce that I'm here with Lauren. Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_03My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01And um, we are excited to get into it and answer all the questions that you have. So thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. How have things been in like your practice and everything? Good. I mean, thank God.
SPEAKER_02Like, you know, we're busy, things are growing, things are it's interesting, you know, with um as things change within the Jewish community, like the practice kind of shifts, which is interesting. Um, in terms of, you know, um needs, things like that. Like, even when things become um, like recently there was a lot of like public scrutiny in certain areas that like while I uh somebody actually asked me, like, what makes you the expert in X? I'm like, I'm not an expert in anything. I mean, maybe I am. I I do have a PhD in clinical sexology and I am a therapist. So maybe I'm an expert in some things. Um, but like because of my um public profile, I do get a lot of these types of questions. And like at a certain point, it just feels like you have to like speak out on certain things, um, even if it's giving your opinion. Uh so that's been like a little bit of a shift within the practice, just in terms of like my role within the Jewish community. Um, but otherwise, like, yeah, typical, you know, relationship dynamic issues, sometimes sexuality issues, that's been coming up a lot more. Um, things of that nature. But it's been great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, awesome. So I'm gonna get into some of the questions that was sent that was sent in um and see your see your take on it. Perfect. Okay. Why do some people feel emotionally lonelier in marriage than they do single?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so from what I've seen, I think the number one thing that came to my mind was expectations. When somebody who's single gets married, and the truth doesn't, I don't think it really matters what age. Like even if you get married at 20 or get married at 30 or 40, whatever it is, um, there's a certain expectation that this person is going to like fill a need, an emotionally connective need, and I'm not gonna be lonely anymore. The problem is, is that if you've never really learned how to develop that connection, whether it be through um, well, for most of us, it's that we never had boy-girl like interaction so much, like your brother's not really boy-girl interaction in this way. Um, so nobody tells them, like, yeah, men and women are really different. And you kind of have to learn how to develop that emotional closeness with him or with her, meaning or reciprocally. So I think that's a big, big issue is that people come into a marriage or into a romantic relationship thinking that this person's gonna like fill this emotional need I have. The problem is sometimes it doesn't work that way. As opposed to somebody who's single who I'll be honest with you, like the and again, I don't think this matters. I'm thinking if it matters in terms of age of the single person. I don't think it does. Um there's kind of an a more of an awareness that they have to put themselves out there a little bit more, even if it's within friendships. I'm not talking about like boy girl, like boy girl dynamics we're gonna put to the side. We're not talking about that. I'm talking about like average from single person who's not, you know, intermingling. They kind of put themselves out there more in terms of friendships to fill that like emotional void a little bit more from what I've seen, even again in working with older singles, younger singles, whoever it is. So there's like a and again, they do still have that expectation that when I get married, oh, this person's gonna fill this emotional void that I have, and we're gonna have this connective, but like it doesn't work like that if you don't work on it. It's not what do you attribute that to? I I don't think it's only a Jewish problem. I think it's an everyone problem. Yeah, it's an everyone problem. Um the generalization that somebody else can make you happy is a big problem. Right. There's a world where you know another person can contribute to your happiness, but the bottom line is that if deep down in your heart and soul you are struggling and you are not a happy person, that's a you issue and you need to work on that. Even if you want to say, like, oh, well, my um, I don't know why I keep thinking my husband, I guess because I'm a woman, but it could be the other way too. Um, oh, my spouse um did X, Y, and Z and now I'm so unhappy. Okay, go and deal with it. Like, go and take care of that. Meaning, and I'm not saying that that might not be more of a couples issue, but I do find a lot of times that you know things present as a couple's issue when yeah, it is, it's a couples issue, but a lot of individual work needs to be done also. Like it's not only a couple's issue if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Does that normally come out only after marriage? You know, because we get married really young. So it's like, do we even know, do we even know ourselves before we get married? You know? Right. So that's I've been asked this question a lot.
SPEAKER_02That's my honestly, that's my biggest issue. And it's always like, okay, like Dr. Hofstead, or what are you gonna do to fix this problem? What am I gonna do to fix the world? I'm like, please, I'm trying. Like, I'm trying, but like, and and I and I always, you know, promote premarital counseling, premarital therapy, working on yourselves, having those open conversations and communication, et cetera, with your partner. Definitely when you're engaged, like if you don't, if if nobody teaches you how to have like it's very easy to communicate with your partner during happy times. It's when things are hard that it's hard to communicate. So if nobody gives you any tools to navigate that, that's when it gets really hard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know what I'm saying? So it's it's and it's not like natural. It's something that has to be taught.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's a big problem. What am I doing to change it? I'm trying, meaning, like, I my name's out there. People know they can call me, schedule consultations. They know we get, you know, and I and I do, thank God. I do have plenty of couples that do come to me premarital. Um, even if it's for like one, two, three sessions, just to like talk things out, you know, whatever, make sure we're all on the same page. Definitely when it comes to physical intimacy, making sure we're all on the same page and have the knowledge that we need to be able to maintain that kind of relationship.
SPEAKER_01But I think with the pre with the premarital stuff is that you don't really don't know a lot until you're actually married, right? Yeah, especially because we go into it not having a a relationship really before before marriage. So like we can go to the to the sessions and be like, yeah, sure. I'm I'm gonna do that, and that's great. And then you get married and you're like, oh no, I actually like don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_02So it happens to be, um, I totally get what you're saying. I actually had this conversation with um clients yesterday. I dated my husband on and off for two years. Like we really knew we knew each other like as much as you know. And then we got married, and like I had to live with a boy, and it was like so weird. I mean, I have no brothers, that did not help. Okay, but I'm saying, like, like I had to like it the I don't uh to me personally, I don't think you really know a person until you live with them and like and really live with them for like a while. That being said, it's not something that aligns with halachic values, like with with with Torah values. Um, but again, like you have to hope that during the dating, that's why also like um, like I know for my own kids, like I totally plan on getting them a dating coach because as the mom, even though I'm the therapist and I see all the things, and I hypothetically, like I dating coach too. Like I do talk to girls in the dating circle and like navigating that and what to look for and red flag, you know. I'm saying, like, I do do that. Um, but you know, at when it's your own child, like you have to take a step back. You have to find somebody to help them navigate that. Exactly. So that's kind of you know, yeah. We try. There's no, there's no, you know, you try your best. I mean, it's it's sad because the divorce rate's so high, and and you're not wrong. A lot and a lot of these younger couples, they don't they don't even know what they're like, they know what they're looking for, but like kind of but they don't even know what to ask, honestly.
SPEAKER_01They don't even know. Right. Um I actually wanted your take on uh the new, I I guess it's a more recent phenomenon of people getting divorced a week or two after marriage. I myself have met three people in the last couple of months. One was married for a week, another for two weeks. Um, you know, to me, that's like, what is this? Like you've never heard this before. This is a more recent phenomenon.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely more recent. So when I hear stories like that, and again, this is speculation because I'm not in it, and there's always two sides to every story, and then the truth, yeah, obviously. Right. But typically when I've heard that, it's when one person was hiding something. Yeah. And they and and the other spouse, like, whether it be like, and again, these are all to me not reasons to get divorced, but maybe some of them. Well, the one I'm thinking is like somebody has a severe mental health condition or a severe medical condition that wasn't shared during Shadouchim, which I think is completely deceitful and not okay. Like again, getting into a marriage with somebody that has a medical or mental health condition is doable. It's not not doable, but it's a choice. You know what I'm saying? It's a lifelong choice. So if that if the spouse, if that wasn't shared with them and they didn't get to make that choice, that's not fair. Do I think it's a reason to just get divorced after a week? No. I do think that it's something to potentially think about. But then I've I've had I've had cases, like real people that I've worked with where um a couple gets married and all of a sudden one of the spouses like flips a switch. And all of a sudden they're like, and the person's like, oh my god, like this could whether it be god forbid abuse or like just it's typically abuse, to be honest. I'm trying to think of other things, but like, because again, like anything else, I think that you know, like we're all human beings, you know what I'm saying? Like we all have our nuance and whatever, and like you're not necessarily gonna get that during dating. Um but you know, and that's a reason to me. That's that's a reason to at least, and even in that case with that with that couple, they were separated before they got divorced, right? For like a while. They just separated for like six, seven months and then finally made the decision that like okay, we're gonna get divorced. But like they didn't get divorced after a week when to me that would have been a case where like imagine like all of a sudden two days into your marriage, your spouse starts like hitting you or emotionally abusing you or sexually abusing you. Like, to me, that's a reason to be like, okay, like I'm ready. Yeah, I'm out, right? Exactly. But I so I don't know where the phenomenon's coming from. I don't know if it's that because I would think if it's a younger couple that the parents are involved. Maybe the parents are pushing them, like we didn't know about this, and we shouldn't have to take this into our family, which like right, really like you know, yeah. Come on.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Um, okay, why are some people addicted to chaos or emotionally unavailable partners? Why would you say that they gravitate to that?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so chaos is typically when somebody it almost like gives them excitement. You know what I'm saying? Even if it's like stressful and they're and and whatever, like otherwise they're bored. It's like if it's not crazy, if things are not whatever, for good or bad, meaning chaos could be good sometimes, um, then they're bored and they can't, they can't do it. Emotionally unavailable. That I think again, I think that comes from I don't think necessarily always is a person trying to be emotionally unavailable. I just think they don't even know what being emotionally available looks like sometimes. Like they don't know how to have those conversations. They don't know, or I mean, honestly, it could be a personality type, avoidant personality type, or whatever it is, or this is how they were raised. That um, you know, we don't talk about the hard things. Yeah. But again, you you can't navigate marriage and relationships without talking about the hard things.
SPEAKER_01There's too much that comes up. It could also be that they are used to the chaos and they like the chaos, right? So if they grew up in a household, that was very chaotic, let's say. So they're they're craving that or they're or they want that because it's comfortable for them. Right. It's like emotional safety in the chaos. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Right, exactly. So when they so for I've seen it go both ways. For some, I've seen people find partners that are like super calm and that does amazing for them. They're like, wow, like I didn't know I could have a life like this. This is amazing. And some they they seek out chaotic partners because that's what they know, that's what they feel good about. And even though sometimes it doesn't feel so good in their bodies emotionally, they're kind of like, okay, but like this this is what I know, like it's fine, I'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_01But they're not always happy, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then the cycle continues because their kids are growing up in that type of environment and then they want to marry, you know? So it just kind of goes and goes and goes. Exactly. It's crazy. Um this is an interesting one. Um, what happens when one spouse grows emotionally, like works on themselves and the other stays the same? I've seen this a lot.
SPEAKER_02It's really it's an exceptionally difficult situation, I'll be honest with you. Because a lot of times when I see it, it's when there's something already going on within the marriage, and um and there needs to be a change. Bottom line is whatever whatever the situation is, there needs to be a change. So a lot of times, like I get this type of question all the time like, should I start counseling even though my spouse is not ready? Yeah, you should still work on yourself even though your spouse doesn't want to. So when typically what I see, thank God, with my couples or my people that I work with, is that when they start noticing that their spouse is like making this like uh pretty distinctive shift, they're like, oh, like that looks cool. Like I should I should maybe think about that. You know, that's where you hope it's gonna go. Um, but when it doesn't, it it really causes a fracture in a marriage, like genuinely causes a fracture. And if nobody points it out, like if they're not working with a therapist or they're not like, because for me, when I have that, I literally will look at the other spouse and say, You know, your spouse is 10 steps ahead of you right now in terms of what we're working on at a certain point, obviously, and we'll start with that. Right. But like, like they won't come back. Exactly. We have to have like a certain level of rapport, there has to be, you know, and like, and we and we talk about it. Like, you know, you asked your spouse to work on X, Y, and Z, and like, look how much progress they made. You know, your spouse asked you to work on X, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_01Like, how much progress do you feel like you've made? You know? Yeah, but what if they're not even willing to go to therapy or they don't want to go? Like, there are spouses who are just like, I'm fine with how I am. You're the one who wants to change, you're the one who, you know, wants to be a totally different person. And I'm I'm cool. Like, I'm good.
SPEAKER_02So those cases never end well, to be honest with you. Yeah. Because it ends up being like, um, it ends up being that one spouse ends up like 20 feet in front of the other. Eventually, usually when they're working with me, I'm able to get the other spouse to come to the table. Even if it's just for a conversation, typically, like I don't want to share my secret, but typically I tell it. I tell the spouse to tell the other spouse, meaning if I'm working with the wife, I tell if I'm working with the wife, yeah, and she's like, I don't know what to do, I gotta get my husband in here. That I'll be oh no, I've had it both ways actually. I was about to say I typically see it that way. That's not true. I see both ways. Um, and I'll say, ask him to come because he's gonna be helping you. Like, don't even make it about him. Say, you know, Lauren wanted to speak to you because she wants some perspective on how you feel like I'm doing, or if there's anything I could be changing, like that type of frame. And then they're like, oh, she wants my opinion. This is amazing.
SPEAKER_01And then you give them the power, exactly, because otherwise they feel like they're they're being forced into do something. Exactly. And then typically very um manipulative.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. And then, but then I typically once they see that like I'm not so scary and like I'm a regular person and like like I'm down to earth and normal and like I'm not gonna judge them, they come back. Then they'll come back for more sessions. But sometimes I do, not always, but sometimes I do have to start it off that way. Otherwise, if if it's somebody that just doesn't want to come for whatever reason, but the what the spouse can say to them, like, listen, I'm putting in all this work, I feel like I'm completely alone. I need you to come. And they'll say, Okay, I'm way more down with that. But sometimes you have to. Like sometimes there's um other mental health pieces at play that like you do need to use a little bit of your like manipulative like psychology, like play around a little bit.
SPEAKER_01It's a reverse psychology, it's exactly what it is.
SPEAKER_02I mean, the truth is a lot of times when I'm at that point, it is genuinely that I do want to know how, because again, I don't live with these people. Yeah. So it would be me here, it would be me relying on the client to tell me how they're doing, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but um that's what it would mean. So sometimes it is important for me to get a per the perspective of the spouse, or um, it's usually the spouse. I would never bring in a child unless the unless the client requested that. But it's usually the spouse just to say, like, okay, like, you know, even to facilitate, usually I don't say like, oh, so-and-so told me that she's doing X. Like, I don't do it that way. It's more so like facilitating a conversation between the two of them of her, let's say I'm working with the wife, like of her to say to her husband, like, okay, like Lauren just wanted to hear how you think things are going. And do you see progress in our marriage? Do you see progress in this speed? You know what I'm saying? Or or whatever we're working on. It might not even be the marriage marriage, technically, it might be something else.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but so it's not always ulterior motives, but sometimes it's just like the person needs to see that I'm like normal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that like I'm relatable and you can like just talk to me like a regular person.
SPEAKER_01But um, I think that's interesting that you mentioned that because I know on your Instagram you're not, you're not gonna lie, your NGLs, whatever you call them. So I've heard people say that like your responses are sometimes like harsh or mean or abrupt. So they think you're like this like harsh kind of person and they're like a little bit scared of you, you know. I'll be honest. I get that in person too.
SPEAKER_02I'm okay with like like that's my it's my personality type. Like, I actually got that, I got that on an NGL actually, like two weeks ago. Like, you didn't say hi to me in shul and you know me. And I'm like, did you come up to say hi to me? Am I supposed to walk around shul like hair? Like, what I so so here's the thing with NGLs. NGLs is like a snapshot, literally a one-second snapshot of a person's life. So when they ask me a question that clearly needs more context, I do try to be patient. I do try, but sometimes it's the same question like over and over and over again. Lately, I've just been skipping the ones that like I've asked. And then people, and then, and but then I'll get DMs from people like, you know, I asked you a question four days ago. I didn't see that you saved it. So um, can you look back? No, just ask me the question right here. What are you doing? Like, I don't know you, meaning it's anonymous, also. No, but I'm saying don't resubmit your question. Just just DM me and ask me. Like, I don't know you. You think I'm gonna you think I'm gonna like click your picture and like call your rabbi? Right. I don't have time for that. Right. You know what I'm saying? And like of the thank God, like the 41,000 people that follow me, I don't know most of them. Right. Like it's fine. Or like if you don't feel comfortable asking me, I have that anonymous link that you can ask a rub directly, which some of these questions are not rabbinic questions, but I'm just saying, like, if you don't, if you if you feel that's why that's why lately a lot of times I'll say, like, just please DM me. Because it's a longer than that. Yeah. There's two, they'll give me like a snapshot, and I need more context. Doesn't he? Or like the question makes no sense, but like I could tell that like maybe English isn't their first language.
SPEAKER_01So like I'm not sure what they're trying to say. I mean, there are some questions on there that are unhinged. Yeah. Like they're mainly about sex, I would say, right? The majority. And and you have that unique niche that no other therapist has done, right? Where we can talk openly about sex. Right. Like the Jewish world. But they won't, they won't talk about it openly on Instagram, correct? Correct. And where people can ask these questions. But some questions are just like wild, you know, like, can I um can I suck my wife's breasts like, you know, for milk, like milking it? Oh my gosh. I was like, when I saw that question, I was like, this has to be fake. It's not, it's not a real question.
SPEAKER_02It kept going for like two weeks. And then finally, I was like, listen, guys, like I posted one final question. I'm like, this is the halakha. I am not here to judge. I don't care what you do. Right. Yes, it's a fetish that your husband will want to drink your breast milk. The fact, like in my head, I'm thinking the fact that you don't find that a grown man wants to breastfeed from you a little interesting. That's a you problem. Like, I didn't share like my own like thought. Like, I try not to, but like it just got to a point where it was like, guys, enough. It's not a thing. You're not allowed. Like, there are even some that hold you can't drink breast milk, period. Like, even from a cup. Oh, really? Yeah, you cannot drink it. Why somebody I've only heard of one case where a guy wanted drank his wife's breast milk because they couldn't find parv milk and she had a bag in the freezer and he wanted a coffee. So he was like, fine, I'll just use the breast milk. But like otherwise, I don't know. But again, there are so many things tomorrow, like that I get that I'm like, So many. Why is this a thing? Like, why do you want that for yourself? Right. So again, I'm not here to yuck anybody, like, yuck anybody's yum. That's like my thing. I'm not here to do that. But again, that's another thing. Like, there are other people that will talk about sex openly, Jewish people, not necessarily from, that will talk about sex more openly on Instagram, but I do it from a Torah lens. Like, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that threesomes are okay. Yeah, they do not align with the lach values, they are not okay, um, besides the psychological toll that could take on a relationship um or swinging or any of these things. Like, I have real clients that I work with that are that are have been through that. And it's it's really hard. It's really sad. And it really, even when both partners agree, I do think it causes a fracture in the marriage.
SPEAKER_01Oh, of course. Right. Like, I mean, like, why wouldn't it? You know, you're bringing in another person, so there's gonna be the jealousy factor, there's gonna be, you know, the comparing factor, there's there's there's all of that in inside that marriage. On top of that, it's like totally not allowed.
SPEAKER_02And you know, if it's done with like people that you know or whatever, but so I'm thinking more like the swinging part where like all four people consent, etc. Like, fine, yeah, the things you're saying do apply, but also there's just this, it it it's not, it's not okay. Like, it's not healthy in a marriage. And again, in some of these communities where this is happening, they have to like see each other every day. Like, what are you doing? Like, this is somebody that you might see at like carpool drop-off. You know how weird that it like, and again, if it's not one time, if it ends up becoming like multiple, like I just I don't know how somebody could like, and again, I'm not judging, but I don't know. Like, for me, if God forbid something like that happened, I wouldn't be able to like hold my head high and like walk with my kids into their yeshiva. Like, it's just so weird.
SPEAKER_01Was the do you think that this was always a thing and now it's just more public and more normalized, you know? Um, I actually saw an ad for a Shabbatone. Me too. Did you see that? It blew my mind. I could call like kinky Shabbatone or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Somebody sent it to me. So I don't, I'm not really following where that I would see that. Let's just say that. Yeah. And um uh uh Right, I'm also not, but somebody sent it to me and I was too. And I was like, is this serious? And then and then the follower sent me the application also. And I was like, is this is this for real? Like, is this for real? Like they're trying, I don't understand. Like, how do you then go back into regular life?
SPEAKER_01No, but they're also promoting it as a halachic, I guess, like you're keeping Shabbos, it's a Shabbatone. It's not like uh it's not like a weekend, you know?
SPEAKER_02Like we're keeping we're keeping Shabbos, but like but then we're all having international reports, right? That actually it's so funny because I was gonna dress this today on a live. I got like I hadn't checked my NGL since yesterday. I got like 10 questions in a row regarding this. Regarding Gilu Gilu Urayos, and like um, is our world falling apart because of all these new sexual ideas and etc. and whatever, and how's that affecting us? And listen, things like this to me are scary. Yeah, I don't know what this person's thinking, the person organizing it. I don't know what she's thinking. I think it's a terrible I like I don't get it. I don't.
SPEAKER_01It almost makes it like it's normalizing it. It's like let's have a kinky Shabbatone as if it's like totally normal. Make and make make a flyer of it. It says like all like the fetishes, all the things. I mean the very detailed flyer. I don't know if we saw it. I did no, some that's how I saw it. Somebody sent it to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I was like, what? I was like, this is nuts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we've we've stooped to like another low level. But that's what I'm wondering is that it was it something that was always here, or now we just have much more access. So it's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02So I never knew that it was a thing before, but again, like had I heard about it in my 20s, yes, I'd heard about it. And I didn't live in New York, I already lived in Florida. So I had heard that it was happening in Florida. We were never asked, thank God. Because that would have been really awkward. But how does that work? What like they just come up to you and say, like, hey, do you want to swing? Like that's how it is. Like people that that from my understanding, I don't know. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But um, it happened to be in earlier in my career, and when this started coming out more and I started being exposed to it more, I called my mom and I was like, mom, like what is this? She's like, Lauren, honey, this was happening in the 60s and 70s and 80s too. You were just a little girl and didn't know. Like, but this has always been a thing. Yeah, it was harder back then because we didn't have internet and we didn't have all these things and easily communicating and whatever, but like, yeah, no, it's been happening. And again, I grew up in like, and again, I don't know if it was specifically happening in my community, but I grew up in like Oceanside Long Island where it's like bunnies and like a farm. I mean, now it's more it's now it's more industrialized, yeah. But like it was like really not, it was not a huge community, it was not, you know, so and it was happening like it, and my parents knew about it. Like it was happening everywhere. It was, you know, so then I think it was done in a more modest way. Now it you're not wrong, like it's becoming that like these types of things are just becoming more socially acceptable and it's just gross. Yeah, not okay. Yeah, like why is somebody I I had this situation where uh without giving too much detail, a bunch, tons of people in the community found out that there was a couple that was actively swinging with other couples, actively it was confirmed, they knew about it, etc. And they were still lots of like David in the shul.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Why is that okay? Like why, why, why, why is that okay? Why are we accepting that? This same way we don't accept, you know, other not okay things that don't align with Torah and that we don't let them come David in a minion. Why are we letting somebody who's actively, openly doing something like this come into our community and make that okay? That to me makes it accept, makes makes them feel like it's even more acceptable. Like, okay, my rabbi sees me in Jewel, I'm Daviding with a minion. There's no way the rabbi doesn't know. If the whole community knows, the rabbi for sure knows.
SPEAKER_01Come on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So but there's so many things that you know is are done in communities, and no rub on him are telling people to leave Jewel. Like so many things. I I, you know, even let's not talk about you know sexual things, but what about stealing money from other people and you know, all these other kinds of things.
SPEAKER_02So it's so interesting. Um unfortunately, we've had these kind of situations in Boca. It doesn't really fully get out out, but like in the ones that I've heard of, there have been many people that have been asked not to come back to school. There's a few that are more um I don't know why they haven't been asked. It could be that like the Rub doesn't feel like it was confirmed enough or whatever it is. Um, but in our community, like it's in in here in Florida, it's like not really so tolerated. Or like the Rav gets involved and says, like, you cannot do business with people in our community anymore. Like it's done.
SPEAKER_01I feel like in New York they just make excuses for people. You know, like, oh, you know, they didn't know, or whatever. Whatever it is, you know. I don't think that it's like as we also get a lot of these New Yorkers moving down after they have situations like that.
SPEAKER_02Right. Which like then you have to they're running away, right? Exactly. And then you're like, and then there are times where people don't find out in that this person had this history until they get messed over by the person. So you have to be like so it and it's never it's like it's Nebach. Like we have to be so careful with like people within the Jewish community. It's not like we're dealing with Gaum, we're dealing with other from people, and we have to be so careful because they don't have the same value system that we do. Right.
SPEAKER_01So it's it's scary, it's hard. Have you had the situations where like back to the swingers that they would leave communities because they were like outed or something and come, let's say to Florida or things like that, and then just start up again in other communities.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely a thing. Yeah, it's definitely a thing. Um we haven't had that in our community, thank God, but it happens all over New York. I mean, they're moving out of the five towns to go. I don't want to be so specific, but whatever. Let's say they're moving out of uh I'll say the five towns, fine. They're moving out of the five towns to go to um what's that place in Tom's River or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Or or they'll move cross-country to California because like, oh, but like, no, like they it doesn't stop, it doesn't stop them from doing it. Um, and like while, yeah, we do have Bar Hashem, an amazing network of urban within in America, like, I don't think anyone from the community, when somebody moves in, is like calling the person's previous rabbi to find out if they can live there. You know what I'm saying? When it comes to yeshiva, like things like that, like that obviously happens. I've definitely heard of people, um, their children not getting to the schools of their choice when they try to move because of situations like this, because the rabbi and they I the rabbis don't be the rabbis don't share, like, oh yeah, these parents are swingers. Yeah, they just say this is not somebody that would align with your value system of your school, and you should really consider looking into it. They'll just give them like a heads up type of thing. Because again, even though rabbis don't really have um HIPAA laws, you know what I'm saying? Like they're not medical providers, um, they do have a certain level of confidentiality in terms of like self, you know. I mean, so do I, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01But um, so what's the the you know, I don't want to make this all about swingers, but just just the last question. Like, what is the percentage of swingers that actively do it that end up getting divorced because it causes this huge fracture in the marriage?
SPEAKER_02So, you know what's interesting? It's so hard because swingers, the whole point of it, it's like considered like an open marriage. What does open marriage mean versus affair? That both partners agree to do this. So it's like they both come into the situation agreeing to it, and then it just doesn't, it doesn't work emotionally. Typically, from what I see, it doesn't work emotionally for one of the partners, could be man or woman. They want to pull back, and then the other person doesn't want to. So that's when typically it's like, okay, like if if you can't be faithful to me when I'm saying this is not something that I want, that's considered an affair. I don't want to be in an open marriage, I want to be in a closed marriage, and you're choosing to continue, that would be a reason for a divorce. You know what I'm saying? So that's typically what I see, but it's but again, it's to me, it's very hard. I mean it's hard in any situation, but specifically with this that once you open your marriage to other partners, it's very hard to go back. Like that's that's like that's like real, it's it's it's more than like I've said this this concept a lot. Like everybody's marriage has like scars, you know what I'm saying? They heal, wounds heal, but they're a scar. This is more. This is like a deep wound, and I and I don't know that if the couple can't get back on the same page that they could stay married even. Like, can you imagine? Like, and then you can't trust your spouse, and then they're doing things and you don't know, and then you end up finding like it's just it's a mess. So those are those that's typically where I find that um people are gonna.
SPEAKER_01When would like not from a halachic perspective? Well, none of this is halachic. Right, right. So when when would couples want an open marriage? Like what would lead a couple to want to want that?
SPEAKER_02Sometimes they're like, oh, I want to spice things up. Like that's that's a lot of what I hear. Like, how can we spice things up? Oh, let's add another partner. But that's a threesome. I'm talking about No, even with another couple, okay. Well, because then that or or a lot of times I'll hear um one spouse is not um homosexual, one spouse is not heterosexual, so they want to like try things, or like they're or let's say meaning they're bisexual. Yeah, meaning they're bisexual. So they want to try things, or like one spouse is bisexual, the other spouse is like, I don't like have it, like I'm fine with it. So like I'll hook up with a woman as a woman or whatever, like, or just the concept of be like I've had situations where I've I've heard this, where um two couples will have sex in bed next to each other, but not with each other. Really? Yeah, because that concept of like being in bed with another couple, but not even like it's like almost like they're on two, like it's interesting. That I have never heard of that. Wow, yeah, and then it's like it's like a voyeurism kind of thing where like they want to watch it, but they don't want to be involved, but which by the way is still not okay. Obviously, right, right.
SPEAKER_01I'm not talking about from from exactly.
SPEAKER_02But there are people that do that also. So it's it's interesting. There's like so much nuance within this, but again, like once you especially, I mean, again, we're removing, we're we're putting leaving our bag. I said this yesterday, I'm like, leaving my bag of Jewishness outside the door for a second. Like, from the clinical perspective, once you break that boundary in a relationship, because again, we're talking about globally, regardless of religion, atheists, anyone believe when you are in a committed romantic relationship that that's two people in a committed romantic relationship. If you make the decision to have open marriage or whatever, or open relationship, that's different. I'm talking about two people in a committed relationship. So once that boundary, even if you agree to an open relationship, to me, once that boundary is broken, it's very hard. Like you, it's fracturing trust, it's fracturing the foundation of the relationship.
SPEAKER_01It's just like Is it harder to recover from that than an affair? That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02I'll be honest with you, in the situations, unfortunately, in the situations I've dealt with, um it's typically a couple that tried it, one spouse didn't like it, asked for a closed marriage again. The partner agreed and they didn't commit. So then it'd be it's like an open marriage that almost becomes an affair. Um I honestly I think an affair is worse only because there's so much lying involved. Yeah. So with an open marriage, at least both partners are like, okay, like I'm aware this person's doing this. Um I made the choice to be okay with it, like fine. Sort of, I don't know. Yeah. But um when that when it comes to an affair and the person's just lying to them all the time, that to me is is worse. Like, how do you come back from that? How do you trust the person again? But people do come back. They do. Oh, yeah. I've had I have I have just to give people hope. That's cool. Oh no, no, of course. I have tons of people, and by the way, that's to me, both routes are hard. After an affair, staying together and working it out is hard. Getting divorced, also hard, different kinds of hard. Yeah, so when you choose to make the marriage work, it's also like super admirable. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, just saying, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Why do some couples become and I guess this touches on like what we're just talking about, become more like roommates and business partners instead of lovers? Like, what happens to that couple?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I think life, to be honest with you, like when you first get married, even if you're older, it's like you're in that honeymoon phase and everything's fun and you're still dating each other and you're still making each other a priority. Once you have kids, or even if you don't, like once you get enmeshed in life and like you forget to make your partner a priority, and a priority could mean like shooting a text during the day, like, hey, everything cool? Like, just like making them feel like they're still part of your life. That's when you move into that roommate space of like, oh hey, you live here, cool. Like I pick up your socks, like that's great. You know what I mean? Like, that's when you start moving into that space, when you stop making each other a priority. Like, this is another like analogy I use all the time. Like, it like even the best of marriages are like an orchid. You gotta like put your ice cube in like once a week, you know, at least. Yeah. I think marriages need more than that. I think it needs to be like daily check-ins, talking to each other, et cetera. I'm like, yeah, do we all go through times where like one or both partners are extremely busy and this and that? Yeah, sure. You still need to carve out time to make each other a priority. I get this question all the time. Like, I don't understand. You have so many kids. How do you have time for each other? We create the time. What does that mean? If I have to, if I have to go into my schedule and literally send my husband a Zoom link to like have like a Zoom call in the middle of the day. We're gonna have a consultation. Literally, like if I if I have a 30-minute break in the middle of the day and he does too, there are times where I'll text to him and be like, you want to like hop on a Google meet? You want to FaceTime for a half hour and like just like chill? Sometimes you have to. Yeah, you know, or like if you have husbands that travel for work, sometimes you have to make that a priority. Sometimes you will be the wife that, like, okay, my husband's um seven hours ahead of me, so I need to make sure to stay up. And or I don't know, you like you have to make it work. You have to make your marriage a priority. That's how you don't become roommates by making the person feel like they're not your roommate, they're actually your friend.
SPEAKER_01And I think people also put their kids ahead of their house, of their spousers, right?
SPEAKER_02Such a hot topic. Tomorrow you're hitting a hot one.
SPEAKER_01That's a good one, right? And and really, it's the other way around. You know how people are like, My kids are my entire world? Like, no, your kids shouldn't be your entire world, they should be a part of your world, they should be important in your world, but they should not be your entire world. And and I think for women especially, um, they make that their entire identity almost. So it's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02This is, I'm telling you, this conversation just came up yesterday. And then when women make being a mother their whole identity, and then they realize this is exactly what happened to me. At like when I had my last baby a few years ago, like I looked at my husband, I'm like, I don't feel fulfilled. He's like, We have 10 kids. Like, how could you not feel fulfilled by that? I'm like, it's not that I don't love them, it's not that I don't do for them, it's not that I don't love being a mother, I do, but I feel like I'm missing a part of myself. And that's when I went back to like back to work, back to school, did all the things, and like opened up my practice. And thank God, like I mean, I'm obviously I'm still very busy being their mother, but that concept of um why is it not why don't I feel enough fulfillment being a mother is very hard. But also the concept of um not that you're no, it is your husband should come before your kids, even if it's like your husband's here and the kids are, you know, like at the end of the day, guess what? Your kids are gonna get married and leave and lead their own lives, and then you're just gonna be stuck looking at your husband or wife.
SPEAKER_01Like, hey, like I hear so many women that let's say their husband's like dying to go away for like a night or even for dinner, and they're like, Well, I just won't leave my kids, like I won't need them, I can't, and it's like you can get a babysitter for everything else, like you can get a babysitter for this. Right. Like you got a babysitter for PTA night, right?
SPEAKER_02Like you got a babysitter to go do something for your kid. Yeah, I don't get that. But then we've we talked about this last time the concept of like going out to dinner and then just like staring at each other and not making it like that's also dumb. You know what I'm saying? Like you want to. Putting away your phone. Exactly. Well, putting away your phone, but also like if you're just gonna leave your house to go have dinner in a different location, like then you might as well stay home and like have dinner together and like talk to each other. Like, I definitely think there's a world where it's very nice to leave your house. But and again, you don't have interruptions from your kids or whatever other things exactly, but um the whole point is that these that date nights or or emotional connection nights or whatever, they're that's what they're meant for. They're meant for you guys to talk to each other, not for you to like sit and like share a steak.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't we talk about the sex part, right? So, like, first of all, in in your opinion, what is the normal amount of times that that a couple should be having sex a week? Okay, so I get a lot of heat for this.
SPEAKER_02This this comment, some some people really don't say every day, but no, it's not every day.
SPEAKER_01Because then we're all Failing.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting. Um, so I got this number actually when I was taking my my college course with Merkaz Eden. Okay. So there was like 30 women in the room. I forgot which which so the way that it worked was every week we had a different teacher. I forgot who who said this. But to me, two times a week at least is normal. Um, and again, everyone's normal is different. There are some people that are very happy with once a month. Great. I'm so happy for you.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? Like, is it really that they're really happy with once a month? Like, are both spouses happy with that? Or one is like I'll take what I can get. So so sometimes.
SPEAKER_02But typically I see the once a month thing with people who are older that is just like hard for them and like whatever. So, like, that's fine. And like they're still doing other intimate things like cuddling and being together and whatever. Like, it's not like they have no physical relationship, okay, but just sex is is hard for them physically. Like the sex drive is also just also libido is lower, exactly. It's like so many things. Um, and also postpartum. I find that women really struggle and guys don't totally get it because like they married this girl who was like super into it, and then they had a baby, and now they're like womp womp. Like, what is going on? And like, guys, like it really does take two full years to get back hormonally from a minute, yeah. Yeah, but it it really takes time for yourself to get back hormonally from that. Um, that being said, I recommend two days a week. Why? Because when I'm working with a couple who's struggling, because what what I say to do is one day a week that the husband should do something to make it special for the wife, whether it be like setting the mood or doing something she likes, or I don't know. And then the other day, the wife should do something that the husband would like, whether he likes like for her to wear lingerie or something like that. And that way it doesn't have to necessarily be scheduled. Sometimes I tell them, like, no, guys, pick two nights, and that way, like, it's on your calendars, and you know, like that's typically so busy.
SPEAKER_01Romance out, right?
SPEAKER_02No, well, it's not necessarily romance, it's more so like the um spontaneity, only because otherwise they're just not gonna like they're just gonna keep pushing it off, pushing it off, pushing it off, pushing it off. Um and it works for people, you know what I'm saying? So I think two days a week is healthy and quote unquote normal. That being said, for people that are going through that you know, the need to cycle, it's very hard to hear that. So, like, okay, so you're telling me you're having sex four times a month? Yeah, that's not great. And then also this whole concept of like this is also a hot topic. Like, the whole concept of like both people needing to climax and reach orgasm, it doesn't have to like remove some of the pressure, guys. Like, everyone calm down. Seriously, and then I also have this whole thing, like I have to actually speak on this more, like the concept of like not three types of sex, but sort of like um like quick sex, something in between, which could be multiple sex.
SPEAKER_01Something, okay, it's basically sex, making love, right? Those are like the two, and then what's what's the third? I don't even know. I don't call it that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I so I call the I call the I made up my own words. I call the top like performative sex, where it's like an hour and a half long, and everyone's doing their things, and like not everybody has time for that. Hour and a half long. There are people that are yeah, what are we what what's what's going on? Like literally like an hour, 15 minutes of foreplay. Like there are some people that like that. They need that, yeah. So that to me that's like performative sex to expect that twice a week is a lot. Yeah. Sorry. No, and then there's and then there's like, okay, quick sex. Call the quickie. Quickie, exactly. Quick sex, great, whatever that looks like for the two of you. And then there's finding, you know, I call it shades of gray, which is so apropos and stupid, but like whatever works for you guys, whether it's a middle ground or three middle grounds, I don't care. That's very personal to a couple. So that also needs to be playing into this. So, like, for and and that's when it also becomes a little bit of an issue when one partner has a different expectation than the other. When one partner walks into the room and thinks they're getting performative hour and a half long sex, and their wife walks in like, I'm exhausted, I just want to go to sleep. Yeah, like, huh? Like, yeah, but then but the thing is though, and it's interesting, this whole generalization that guys just want to get off, completely untrue.
SPEAKER_01Totally untrue. Totally they are I find that the men are more emotional than the women. Yes, they need to feel wanted, desired, and loved, and all that in order to really enjoy it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Which women have a hard time with because we because unfortunately, like this generalization that like women are like these emotional flowers and men are like these strong beasts, like it's just not it, it's not reality, right? So if every single time becomes quickie sex, that does not make a guy feel good. Yeah, and and again, most guys do understand that if you have a conversation and say, like, listen, we're both working full-time, we have toddlers at home, whatever it is, sometimes it's gonna have to be like that. That's a love, that's a conversation, it's communication, it's a level of understanding within the marriage. Yeah. That being said, do I think if you're only having sex four times a month, it should be four quickies? No, it's not so fair to your partner. Yeah, in both directions, by the way.
SPEAKER_01Is it is it true that the man like gets off on pleasuring the woman? Yeah, like that's what they want. There's like only like I think that they they like that more than the actual sex.
SPEAKER_02Most of the guys I talk to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The ones that don't necessarily, it's because they don't know that they're like, it's it's interesting. It's almost like they don't know they're allowed. They don't know they're allowed to get pleasure from like pleasuring their wife. It's weird. Yeah. Like those are typically, honestly, those are typically the guys that grew up watching a lot of porn or grew up super insular and never were taught that like like these are the guys that like walk into their marriages and they're like, Okay, wife, it's your job to like make me uh happy sexually, or that's actually completely not aligning with kalacha or Torah values at all. Like they're these men are not taught the framework of like the the actual mitzvah of Ona and what that means, but also that being said, like you can't pressure your wife to like try to force her to enjoy it either, either partner. You know what I'm saying? Like that can't be a thing either. But that's that's the reality.
SPEAKER_01Like the it's that's where the mitzvah lies. Meaning what is the halacha surrounding that? Like, I I remember on one of your NGLs, um a man, uh whatever, I'm assuming that it's a man, asked about going down on his wife, and you said that that's not halachically allowed, or it's or it's a Shila, which I didn't know that. Hot topic.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the only time I've heard that it's not allowed was from one rabbi, which I was shocked. I was like, what are you talking about? And then I asked Myra, he's like, that does not, that's not mainstream halacha. Um chabad. That it's allowed or not? Chabad, a lot of chabad say it's not allowed.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um why though? If it's getting pleasuring a woman, because it's getting close to okay. The halacha really is in the vaginal opening, not the clitoris or the levia. It's really the vaginal opening. A man is not allowed to look at kiss the actual opening. That's why a man's not allowed to watch his wife give birth. Oh, yeah, like you're not like you like a guy could some people hold that the man shouldn't be in the room, which is interesting. But they can like chill by your head, but they're not supposed to look at like the vaginal situation. Um, which I actually told that to someone yesterday, and she was like, What do you mean? Like he wants to see. I'm like, sorry?
SPEAKER_01No, but also like does he want to see? Like, like let's let's leave some mystery.
SPEAKER_02I would like to look so um hold on, I lost my train of thought. We're talking about going again. Right going down. Plagiaring, plagiarical plague moment. Okay, so um I've only gotten, and then, but then even within a chabad, I've gotten when I say that out loud, floods of DMs. That's not true. I'm chabad, and my Rev said it's okay. Okay, guys, that that's why like I stopped. Yeah. Um, I'm actually coming out with, I haven't launched them yet, but I'm coming out with like um oral intimacy guides for like like like a more like just like a sheet to like explain what it is, explain different ways you could do it, etc. Like from a halachic perspective, totally halachic perspective, but it says on it like in big hazardous letters like please ask your oral rabbi. This is not a heter to do whatever you want. Right. Um, so one for men and one for women for reciprocally.
SPEAKER_01Um because a lot of people don't even know about it, to be honest with you. So interesting, right? They don't know what to think. We really like don't learn it, and also it it feels dirty, right? It feels like not allowed, it feels like not modest.
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of men also, it's interesting. Um because well, women also actually, but for men, I found some, not a lot, thank God, that because like I don't know how to explain this without sounding gross, but like it's just everything's internal, but like it feels like it's like wet and like weird, they they can't, they can't. Or their wife has like a specific smell or taste, they can't handle it. They'll message me like, oh, it's so funny. It came up in my clinical sexology program. Like, why did a vagina's have to start tasting like pineapples? Like, why did that become like why do we taste like pineapple? Like from a lotion? No, there are like supplement, like it became like a new fad. There were these like pineapple supplements that supposedly either. Really? Okay. They're not kosher, from my understanding. So I'm sure they'll make a kosher version. By the way, they don't, it was it's actually so interesting because I get this question a lot. I don't know if you've ever heard of spicy cubes. Have you heard of them? No. Okay, so I get it all the time on my I actually it got a little bit better because I cleaned up my Instagram feed. I was thinking your Instagram feed must have. It actually got better because I started like just like, I don't want to see this. I found it. Yeah, not even on follow. Like it was more like my for you page was coming up with like and I'm like, I'm I'm cool. Like I don't, yeah. So um there are these like gummies that apparently have something in them that like enhances sex or whatever arousal. Um, but they're not kosher. Somebody asked me about them, and I was like, somebody needs to make something like this. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_01Like it's well, taking like marijuana or something like that, relaxation. No, well, not marijuana. What's like stronger than that? I don't know. There's there's something that when you take it and you're on this like kind of I mean like Molly, like that type? Maybe like an out-of-body experience that you that enhances the sex like tremendously, or you just like don't even know where you are.
SPEAKER_02So the problem is with that, like I don't know how that would because that was another hot topic a couple of weeks ago. This concept that um college teachers or Hassan teachers are telling their like people they're teaching that they should um drink before they have sex.
SPEAKER_01I saw that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's does not align with Halacha. Why you're not allowed to be intoxicated when you have sex, like that's why they say that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01So there's a difference between being intoxicated versus like having a drink to relax you, right? So one or two glasses.
SPEAKER_02I think unfortunately, that Kala teachers might be telling girls to drink a little more than they should. Uh-huh. And then they're telling the women to not the men. No, sometimes the men too. They're like, oh, we don't want you to be too nervous. You can just like, guys, like, why can't we just teach them about like first of all, why can't we remove the pressure? And like, you don't have to have sex the first night. First night. Maybe like hold hands and cuddle. Like you just met each other. Like, it's it's okay. Yeah. And then I I don't know. I just feel like there's not, there's so much pressure and anxiety surrounding like that first couple of weeks of marriage that like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01We have to like remove the pressure, not be like, oh, just drink a bottle of wine. Yeah. Like, and then everyone looks at them like, are they touching? Are they not touching? That does that mean that they had sex or they didn't have sex or something.
SPEAKER_02So I tell all my brides, even my non-virgin brides, just just if just don't touch.
SPEAKER_01But like sometimes you're just, you know, you're just newly married and whatever, and it happens. And like everyone's just in that scrutiny phase where they're like analyzing, you know, like it's also like the first year of marriage. If you're a little bit bloated, they're like, oh, you're pregnant, you know, or whatever. It's just like there's so much pressure for these, for the for these couples. Like, it's really so hard for them. It's really hard, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So, I mean, I think that's a huge thing, removing the pressure. So, I don't know what the what the halacha would be if you took Molly. I mean, obviously, you could still have sex, I'm sure, but I'm thinking that like because that's considered intoxic. I don't know. I'm sure it's not in the shulchanarch, right? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it's not there.
SPEAKER_01So it would be a shilo before. Well, there was plant medicine, like back in the day. Yeah, but Molly, I don't think is plant medicine. Not Molly, but like I there's something else. Like ayahuasca has always been around. Right. Ayahuasca's been around, but that you're like vomiting and whatever. I don't think like you want to do it. There's also another one with like I would have to, I have like a so funny.
SPEAKER_02One of my very, very close friends, her her first cousin, who I'm also very close with, is like my ayahuasca guru.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's like something that like she helps she hooks people up like with different programs and stuff like that. Um, and she's amazing. And anytime I have these types of questions, I like I'll like tack, like if anyone ever asks me about like plant-based medicine or um um plant-based medicine, ayahuasca, like this type of stuff. There was something else I've heard, peyote maybe. There's like a bunch of different ones. Yeah. Um, I call her and I ask her. It's also becoming more normalized. Oh, that for sure. Hello, people all over, uh. Like doing it. That's that scares me a little bit. Like this people could really get hurt. Like, I if it's not done with like a like a supervised okay. So I don't want to like call people out. I'm not gonna say names, but like certain people are doing it in their basement. Oh wow. And just like calling themselves a shaman. Yeah, wow. And like giving out ayahuasca to people. Like, what would it you do if someone had a heart attack? Hmm. You have no clue. And also for ayahuasca, you're supposed to go off all your mental health meds. What if someone doesn't? Are you are there couples that are doing it together? Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01That's like go have, you know.
SPEAKER_02So it's actually interesting. When I spoke to my friend, her name's Lana, she works with the con the conscious concierge. Um what's that? So that's her her brand, that's her company, the conscious concierge, where she, if you reach out to her, she'll like she knows about all this stuff, like very in-depth. She's done it herself, she's hooked up other people, and she has a lot of connections within that world to try to help you figure out what might work best for you and your spouse. Like even within the even within the Orthodox Jewish population, like she knows the ones that are like that, like keep shop is that whatever, you know what I'm saying? She knows really where to send people. So I had that conversation with her. I asked her, like, do you think it's smart for couples to do it together? And she said she doesn't think the first time you should do it together. She thinks the first time you should either consider definitely as from an Orthodox Jewish perspective, because she happens to not be orthodox. She's Jewish. Um she thinks that you should do it like separate, like in all women's versus all men's. Because you're very vulnerable and you don't want to be in that space around other people's husbands.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you mean like together, like in a group? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02If you're doing it, well, you don't typically do ayahuasca alone. It's typically a ceremony with other people. Um, and then you could hypothetically do it together, but I don't know. Meaning, I only had one client, and we it was like when I called, when I called my friend when I called her about this, she was like, What do you mean? Like a guy who is literally, and I still don't know what ended up happening with him, but a guy who told his wife he was doing ayahuasca every single week. Meaning every Thursday night, that was his thing, he would go to these ceremonies and do ayahuasca and then come home for shops every single week. That is insane. The guy did it more than 60 times. I spoke so I called my friend. I'm like, Do you get desensitized? I have no when I told her this, she's like, something's going on. Right. Like either he's having an affair or like something, she's like, that doesn't even make sense. Like you would like, I don't know. She's like, I don't know what would happen if you did that. Like that does that does not align with like the theories behind ayahuasca at all. Yeah, it was mind-blowing. Wow. But again, also, unfortunately, like up north, it's become so normalized that people just have access. Yeah. So, like, oh, okay, like I heard about this ayahuasca like ceremony and like so-and-so's basement. Should we go tonight? Like, that sounds like a cool vibe.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_02Like, it's not, it's it's like a medical, it's it's totally like a medical thing.
SPEAKER_01You could really, it's scary, like it's it's becoming too normalized, almost like I wonder if they're gonna be doing ayahuasca at the kinky shabaton. Maybe it's actually not a bad idea. We should check the flyer. We should check the flyer. Well, there's everything else on on there.
SPEAKER_02I was really shocked by hello. A lot of these things, people are like, um, a lot of the things that I find out that are more controversial going on, it's not because I follow these people. I really, I really honestly only use Instagram for work and shopping, to be honest. I don't, I don't really use it for anything else other than that. And maybe the news, because like let's say like Yeshiva World, whatever, like just to like follow what's going on so I stay up to date with life. Um, so it's I really get these types of things from people sending them to me. Yeah. Like not crazy. I don't even and they're like, how did you not know? I'm like, because I don't, I don't have time. Like I don't, I don't look into these things. Yeah, I don't know. And if somebody would message me, like, do you think this is a good idea for me and my husband? I would say, no. No, no, don't go on a kinky chamaton. Like, what is this? And then how do you come back from that? Let's say they get 50 couples. So all these people, a hundred people know that this is what you and your husband, well, okay, 98 people know that this is what you and your husband are into.
SPEAKER_01And now what happens when you see them in the grocery? But isn't it, aren't there like I mean, maybe I'm being naive, but like, aren't there websites and stuff that anyways like people know that they've so this is another one, by the way?
SPEAKER_02I didn't know.
SPEAKER_01Like, okay. Recently, recently there was, I'm not gonna say the name. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, I got it because I got it via and the and everybody was like all up, all up in arms. I was like, okay, that makes sense. Like, I wasn't like shocked by by it, but there's apparently a website for this, though, like an app or like an app or something. Right.
SPEAKER_02So I found out about it again from a follower and they sent it to me. And then my response was like, This is so interesting. Should I like like uh put in an ad? Like, contact me when you're married, fold me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, by the way, it should be like a pop-op. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Like, hello. Um, yeah, those those types of things also. And the fact that there's apps for this now is scary.
SPEAKER_01Right. Like people that you know that are married, whether happily or not, are publicly out there asking for other.
SPEAKER_02So you know what's interesting if we're talking about the same one, I don't know if we are probably that they showed their face.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because when I saw, when I saw it, I was like, but that was the thing. There was no shame about it. It's kind of like maybe we are in an open marriage, and that's like that sent it to me was like, yeah, like I have friends, actually, more than one person that I spoke to about this.
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, I totally have friends on that app, but they're not dumb enough to put their face. They show their face, they show their body, they show whatever, they don't put their face. Like, are you kidding? What are you like ruining your kids' lives forever? Or like, by the way, like both of those people have families outside of this. So now that this gets around, like, what about this girl's sister who like lives wherever and like has to now be told, like, by the way, oh, I like saw your sister on social media while she's like posting pictures of herself in a bikini and like asking for an open marriage. Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not just about you, it's about everyone in your life, right? You know, so those people are just generally selfish, narcissist, whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_02But I I don't I don't know what I would do if like that was my family member. I would be, and then I found out about I'd be so I would flip out, like I'd be so embarrassed. More so not for me, I don't care, obviously. I don't care what they do. You want to do you, go for it. But like you're associated with me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So like so I want to go back to two sex questions that I have since you're the sex sexologist now, you're a doctor, so I can ask you all that stuff. Um, so my first question is the if let's say one spouse is into certain fetishes or wants to do, you know, kinky stuff or whatever, not with other couples, within the marriage, within the marriage, and the wife is like, hell no, like that is gross, gross or whatever. Or the husband is like that. What what do you say to a couple like that?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so typically I hope the couple comes to me before they just like announce it to their wife or their husband because when it comes to this type of stuff, you need to be very delicate. You can't just come out and be like, oh, um I I'm trying to think of something like that not so bad. Um, oh, I would really like to blindfold you. And the wife's like, what do you mean? Um, I I'm I'm gonna feel so like it's not necessarily okay. A lot of times the quote unquote grossness comes from misinformation or not knowing. Like I have tons of people DMing me, tons in both directions. My husband or my wife will not do oral. Will not. She thinks it's disgusting, he thinks it's disgusting, it's so insulting, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So insulting? Yeah, like I'm insulted that my husband won't do it. Meaning for that type. And then for a guy, I think it's interesting. I think within the Jewish community, it's become more acceptable for guys to like not get oral. But what's interesting is uh in halacha, like it's more okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Not the finishing part, but the the concept part. Um that's a shot in and of itself. But um unfortunately, again, sometimes these girls are taught in Kala classes, and this is the opinion of the Kala teacher that it's gross. It's just gross. Don't do something that you find gross, but they've never tried it before. How do they even know if it's gross? And what if they're Husband just wants to try that. Like, you know what I'm saying? So I think they're so when they're when when kinky stuff starts coming into the bedroom, which is not uncommon, by the way. And typically, I definitely hear it happening. Actually, I hear it both.
SPEAKER_01Lately, it's been coming up more earlier in marriage, which is interesting. Like, because it's probably more open now. Like before, you wouldn't even like like when I first got married, like I wouldn't even dare to say anything like that. Like, I would be like, What?
SPEAKER_02I don't know if you saw there was an NGL I got the other day, and I was like, What? That a Hasidish girl, it said it said Hasidish girl was taken by someone, I don't know who it was, they never responded, to purchase a sex toy before her wedding. Oh. And I was like, What? Like, why are we why why are we starting out there? Like, not saying that it's bad. I am totally okay with them. I don't, you know, I'm saying everyone to each their own. But why are we opening the marriage with that? Yeah. Why? Like, why would we not let them try to like experience it together? Why are we bringing in an extra thing that that they might not even need or want? Or or you know what I'm saying? So it's definitely become so more acceptable, but I definitely am finding I get that question a lot. Like, how can I spice things up? Da-da-da. Typically, I've only had situations, honestly, where it gets very um dicey. And this is honestly, it's typically from the guys. I'm trying to think. It's really I've seen this more from the guys that they want to be dominated. And um within the more modern, but like dominated in a way that's like extreme.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So within the like you need a safe, like a safe word type, yeah, type of thing. Okay. Yeah. Like, yeah, that that's shades of gray. Exactly. Which is like you are. Exactly. Like that level of domination. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You need you need some kind of safe word, you need some kind something or whatever. Fine. Um, and then there's also the concept of like the wife worrying if I do certain things, does this make my husband gay? I get that a lot. A lot when, like, not necessarily, like, I don't know what you're talking about. He's still attracted to you, doesn't want to have sex with guys, but like he wants to try new things. So, like, okay. Um, I just think when it comes to these more kinky things, not saying it should become more socially acceptable, it shouldn't be a social conversation, right? It should be a conversation between a husband and a wife and and someone like me, a therapist who can help them navigate it. But I think it needs to start very slow. It can't just be like, this was another thing, and I was like, oh my gosh, this was a few weeks ago. Um, where a guy really wanted to try anal on his wife, but did not do it in a way that was like um comfortable. Well, not only comfortable. Like the way she explained it, I think he like she got like a rectal tear. It was it was bad. Oh wow. Like he just like he didn't like do the things just like use lube, go slow. Like all the typical instructions, like guys, some of these questions I get asked, you could literally ask Google.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like Chat GPT.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Chat GPT and check it out. Like you could literally ask. And she messaged me saying, like, I I it's been two days, I can't walk and I'm bleeding. Like, what do I do? And I said you need to go to the doctor. I I think she didn't feel raped because she consented, but I she's like, I'm never doing that again ever. I'm like, obviously, like he really hurt you, physically hurt you. I don't think he, I don't think he, but again, it wasn't intentional, right? It's misinformation, it's just misinformation. Like that I could definitely say, like, people, please don't try things without getting information about what you're doing before you just do them because you really could hurt your spouse completely unintentionally. Yeah. So again, I do think when it comes to these more kinky things, that it needs to be, you know, present delicately or presented in steps. Like, like maybe you're thinking, oh, I want to try anal at some point. Okay, so like work up to that. Don't just like jump in. Right. Like, figure out, figure out steps in between that. And again, it's such an easy chat GPT search.
SPEAKER_01Such an easy chat GPT. But is there ever a time that the spouse is like just so vanilla? Like, is like absolutely not. I'm just not trying it. Like, let's just do missionary for the rest of my life and I'm and I'm yeah, yeah, there is.
SPEAKER_02I've I've had this before, and that's how they get to my office. That's how that's how I get them. And I'm like, listen, you know, a lot of times it's typically from the woman because, but and again, it's it's not typically like, let's say, um, woman on top position, it's more so that the woman is self-conscious. It's not really that she doesn't think she will enjoy it, but like there is a world where that's like a very full view of a woman for the guy. So um it's sometimes it's not necessarily like a this is gross thing. It's more of a like, I don't have the confidence to do that. Yeah, I don't feel good about doing that. Um, so that's a space that we can work. There are situations where I've had people call me and they um they see a dominatrix on the side and they're like, Well, I wouldn't have to do that if my wife would consider like stepping on me wearing high heels. I'm like, okay, so why don't you talk to her about it? Oh, she'll never listen to me. She'll never hear me. Okay, so then do you want to schedule a console? Like, what like what do you want to do? Right. Like, what do you want to do? Like, because again, going to a dominatrix on the side is cheating. Sorry. Like, that's cheating, especially you're getting off on that. Like, even if you're not like climaxing or whatever, ejaculating, you're still getting off on that.
SPEAKER_01So, what is the best position for climaxing getting an orgasm?
SPEAKER_02For everyone is different, yeah. And you have to remember this also. I think we I don't know if we said it last time, only 20% of women climax from creation.
SPEAKER_01Can we can we just normalize the fact of like how long does it take for a woman to orgasm and for a man? Okay, are we including foreplay? No, not foreplay, because I I thought it was a lot less than what it actually is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so under two minutes is considered for a man is considered premature ejaculation. Yeah, yeah. For pen penetrating for under two minutes. I get this question all the time. Um, do I know I have to, I haven't, the reason I just skip it because I'm like, okay, I have to look into this part. Um, if that includes foreplay for half an hour and then penetration is two minutes, is that considered premature ejaculation? I don't know. I gotta, I gotta confirm that part. Um, but under two minutes for a guy for intercourse is considered premature ejaculation. For a woman, it typically takes longer to orgasm for sure. I don't think guys realize that it could take as long as it does. Right. A little bit frustrated. How long?
SPEAKER_01What was the number? I think the number was like at least 15 minutes. That's what I heard. And I thought it was so much less. I'm like, 15 minutes? I don't know. That seems like a very long time. Well, I guess it depends what you're doing. Right.
SPEAKER_02Like, you know what I'm saying? If it's I don't think you necessarily need 15 minutes of oral, yeah, necessarily. If your husband knows what they're doing, you don't need it for that long. Right. But but I mean, women's bodies definitely need more warming up than guys do. Meaning it does there's definitely something to be said for, you know, erection for a man is all about blood flow. For a woman, it is too. Like there needs to be a certain level of blood flow going to that area in order to achieve orgasm and enjoy sex, etc. So it takes time, you know what I'm saying? For both. I mean, uh for guys, I think it's quicker. Like very clinical.
SPEAKER_01I'm pretty sure clinically it's quicker for guys to get like hard and into it than for women. But I also heard that it wasn't as short as I thought. Like it's it's also like 10, 12, 10, 12 minutes or something like that. What that um that it takes men to orgasm. Really?
SPEAKER_00Not that weird.
SPEAKER_02I think it depends on what you're doing. I don't know many guys that need 10 to 12, 10 to 12 minute like blowjob. Yeah. I don't know. No, not a blowjob, but I'm talking about just the actual intercourse. So yeah. I mean, it it shouldn't mean it shouldn't necessarily I know. I think 10 to 12 minutes makes sense. Yeah. I think that would make sense. But like, and by the way, when people see this podcast, they're gonna be like, what do you mean? I for sure have premature jackability. Should I better go get some Viagra? What am I gonna do? Exactly. What does this mean? But like, you know what? We also like don't use condoms. Condoms help with sensitivity. Like, I again, I don't there's no- Oh, do they?
SPEAKER_01I think the condoms is actually makes it less enjoyable. Because it's not direct contact. It does. It's less sensitive for the guy. It's less sensitive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that way they can go longer. Okay. Meaning they'll still they still achieve what they achieve at the end. Yeah. But they can go for much longer than two minutes if it's not skin to skin contact. So that's why I mean, again, does not align with the lack of values. Let's be clear. You have to ask Ashilo. Yes. But there are people that there are guys that use them because they're like they can't, otherwise they they're having sex for like under two minutes, actual intercourse. And then their wives are like, hey, yeah, what's going on?
SPEAKER_01So why that versus like taking Viagra or something?
SPEAKER_02Like, why so some guys can't take Viagra? Like it is, it's definitely it could like if you have any kind of heart condition and things like that, like you can't. Um, also, this is happening with like young guys, like 21-year-olds. Like, I don't think they're giving out Viagra to 21-year-olds. I do think I actually just released it, like um, I released a document, like um a handout thing for premature ejaculation and different things you could do, the start-stop method, etc. Because I get the question all the time.
SPEAKER_01But is it emotional? Is it an emotional thing?
SPEAKER_02Um, I the only time actually I've seen it be an emotional thing was the opposite. Like they were scared to have sex because they were scared of ejaculating. They never ejaculated before. They never masturbated nothing, and they were scared of what the feeling would feel like. Like, would like that is almost like a control piece. Does that make sense? Like they were like, I'm gonna be out of control and I'm scared. And like, I'm like, okay, like so. That's where the emotional piece can come in.
SPEAKER_01Do I think also like a performance piece?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, that for sure. Meaning that a guy is just feeling like but again, like message to the world only 20% of women can orgasm in any position from um sex, from actual intercourse. So I I tell this to couples all the time like, make sure your wife gets what she needs before you finish if that's what you need to do. You know what I'm saying? Like, make sure your wife's taken care of because again, you have to also remember men have a much longer refractory period. So once that's that's the post-ejaculation period. So once they finish, they're like, Okay, like cool, like I need a break. So don't do that. Make sure your wife finishes before you because she has a much shorter refractory period and she could potentially orgasm again, which by the way, guys, also it's okay to orgasm once, like everyone chill. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Like everyone's like Right, like why why is it like this almost competition for guys where they're like, Yeah, I can do it like three times a night, you know, or whatever it is. Like no idea. It's so first of all, there's a lot of pressure, and secondly, like physically is that even possible?
SPEAKER_02Okay, is it possible in 12, let's say on a 10-hour night to have sex three times? Yeah, it's possible. It's definitely possible. I don't I don't know people that necessarily would in want that, especially like people who are normal and like have a job. Like maybe like on vacation.
SPEAKER_01Right, like on like I'm talking about like vacation.
SPEAKER_02So maybe it's it's definitely possible biologically. Um, I'm more so, and it really I feel like it causes such like a gen, not a generalization, I can't think of the word, like a like a thing in the Jewish community where like stigma, these certain, not even stigma, I'll tell you what I'm trying to say, like these certain concepts within sex that are not so common and a lot of times are seen like in porn. And these guys are like, oh yeah, I got my wife to do this, or bro, like you learn that from porn. Like, why are you promoting that by yourself? Like, literally, like, and then and then everybody, all these people are like, oh, but I really wish that like I could experience this or I could experience that, or it's not necessarily real. It looks real, but it's not necessarily real. And guess what? Not every person could do it. So it's okay. It's okay. Like, be happy with what like if you're in a marriage or you're in a romantic relationship where you're happy with your sex life, it's okay. It's okay to be happy, guys. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay to just be, this is great. I love my partner and we're and we have you know good sex and great. There is this world where I guess because it's become more open, that everyone's trying to one-up each other with their sex lives.
SPEAKER_01Do you think it's talked about like amongst the men that I like I don't find that like the men talk about their their sex lives openly to other guys being like, hey, like what did you try last night? You know, like so it's interesting.
SPEAKER_02Mine would never especially now with my line of work. It actually this happened a few days ago. I was I was mortified. I don't even know where it went. Thank God it got like deleted. I hope. I don't even know. But like there was this random, clearly spam account that was posting different um on their story, posting different Instagram people. Like he posted non-Jewish Nanny, and then I saw I was tagged in something, so I went and looked at it and he wrote something about like, oh, the orthodox therapist, she's amazing. I heard she's a freak in the sheets. I showed it to my husband. I was like, he's like, how do they he's like, what? I'm like, dude, I don't know, please. Like, I don't know. But I like, I like, oh my god, it was so embarrassing. So yeah, my husband doesn't, but I have heard of guys that do. Yeah, they sit around and they just talk about each other's sex lives, and it's weird. And like, oh, have you tried this with your wife? Have you done if I found out that my husband was doing that, I would be mortified. Yeah, I would be like, Are you is that serious? But he's very sensitive with this stuff, like so over the top sensitive sometimes with this type of stuff. So like he will never thank God. But no, there are guys that do, there are women that do that sit around talking about like, oh yeah, I just I feel like women more than men, yeah. Do do that. So again, and I had this conversation with somebody else last week. When you're having these kind of like intimate conversations in the confines of like your two best friends, it's very different than like sitting around the coffee shop with 12 women talking about whatever. It's just it's just different. So, do I think you shouldn't really share your sex life with anybody? Yeah, I I I strongly feel that way. I think it's inappropriate. Um, I think it's not great for your marriage. And the fact that you feel like you need that, it should be a conversation between you and your husband of why you need to have that conversation with another person.
SPEAKER_01But again, does it happen? Sure. Yeah. Well, Lauren, this has been amazing and so fun, as always. Yeah, should we do a part a part three? I'm down. Come back to my side of town. We'll do that. Exactly. You gotta come to New York next. Okay, fine. Um, thank you so so much for coming again. This was awesome.
SPEAKER_02And um, I don't know if you want to tell everybody where to find you, even though I'm sure that they know already, but you can um so you can find me at um on on Instagram on the Orthodox Therapist. You can find me on my website, www.theorthodox therapist.com. Um, the easiest way to get a hold of me honestly is to schedule a consultation. And then my um, thank God I have an amazing administrative assistant who manages all my consultations and she's awesome and she's super well trained and she knows me so well that she's able to like make the connections if she and whatever. So because people get very turned off by that. Like, why can't we speak directly with you? Well, then I wouldn't be able to do things like this. Yeah, exactly. And I wouldn't be able to see patients, like I'd be on the phone all day with consultations, but I have to make time for other people too and my family and like other things. So there has I had to put that boundary because then also my consultations were becoming sessions, yeah. Free sessions, definitely free therapy. Definitely get that. But uh, yeah, so feel free to reach out. But this was great.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me. Amazing, thank you so much, Lauren. This is awesome. That's