Performance Rewired

Episode 8 - How We Approach Neuro Training Program Design for Dancers and Gymnasts

• Yuka Sugiura & Nikki Bybee

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0:00 | 33:23

In this episode, we talk about the perception of neuro training as brain ‘tricks’ and discuss how it's a process and approach that creates changes in the brain to improve physical performance for the long-run. We share recent experiences from workshops and clinics and the process behind designing and refining programs for groups and individuals.

Key topics

  • Why neuro training should be part of the beginning of every movement session
  • Translating workshop “tricks” into long-term training 
  • How an Assess - Reassess process helps athletes track what actually works
  • Individualized protocols and why some athletes respond differently
  • Using neuro training as a warm-up for the nervous system, not just the muscles
  • Pain, safety, and how the brain can create protective responses that inhibit movement

Timestamps

  • 1:20 - How Nikki creates accountability for dancers in her workshops
  • 02:08 - We’re rewiring the brain in order to create changes in how it drives movement, not doing a series of brain “tricks”
  • 05:35 - The Assess - Reassess process as a method to select drills, and how to reinforce the learning process with athletes, dancers and coaches
  • 07:37 - The benefit of coaches and instructors understanding the approach and process
  • 09:05 - Why neurotraining works best when integrated into daily practice, classes or rehearsals
  • 09:53 - The process of introducing and adjusting drills in group settings
  • 11:20 - How body position plays a role in the outcome of a drill and the importance of gradually introducing complexity
  • 13:13 - How a simple positional change could create a negative or positive result from a drill
  • 14:30 - Challenges of introducing neuro training to a group that will respond to drills differently 
  • 15:47 - The power of individualized protocols and the optimal frequency for the best results
  • 16:25 - An example of neuro training improving a professional athlete’s performance and longevity
  • 19:20 - Why warming up and performance improvements benefit from solutions beyond solely biomechanical ones 
  • 20:40 - Pain as a protective response from the brain, and how a single neuro drill provided relief from knee pain
  • 23:11 - Benefits of preparing both the physical tissues and brain areas that regulate movement and muscle tone 
  • 26:50 - Why neuro training warm-up protocols can be more efficient than traditional warm-ups 
  • 27:30 - A case study of a dancer with difficulty spotting and how biomechanical instructions or adjustments alone may be insufficient
  • 28:40 - Closing thoughts

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Performance Rewired, a podcast for movement experts seeking to unlock the secrets behind optimal performance using a brain-based lens.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Nikki Biby. And I'm Yuka Segura. We're master neurotrainers and performance coaches for elite and professional athletes and dancers. And we'll be sharing insights, tools, and a little behind the scenes of what we do. And if you want alternatives to more and more reps, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_00

All right, everyone, welcome to Performance Rewired. I'm Nikki. And I'm Yuka. And today we are talking about a topic that I've been thinking a lot about the last couple weeks because both Yuca and I are out doing workshops. And as I've been floating around doing workshops at various schools, I've been wondering, you know, how many people are actually going to invest beyond this initial investment? Are they going to continue practicing the things that they're learning? I don't know, you know, how Yuka runs her program. I'm actually having my kids program themselves after we run drills. They write down which ones are helping them so that they can run them on their own. And for the older kids, I actually let them bring their phone in and video the drill so that they have a record of what they can do to improve themselves and kind of, you know, take accountability for their own progression and take some of the weight of progression off of their instructors. Because ultimately, if we want to progress, it's really up to the individual who's in the classroom. So I have been thinking, you know, I recognize that some people may see this as a gimmick or a trick, or like, well, look at this. This is fun and interesting and cool. But I want to re-emphasize that this is actually neuroscience and that we are rewiring the brain. And this morning I saw a video, and I was like, oh, I'm so glad I kind of crossed this of this physical therapist who is working with neuro and changing things through rewiring the brain. And she's talking about people who walk duck-footed. And lots of ballerinas do that. We taught walk turned out. And she was saying how some people attempt to correct this by simply turning their likes in. And then she proceeded to say, if you want to really shift this, you need to shift the neural input. And she uh put herself in tandem stance, which is a foot position that's like you're standing on a tightrope, your heel is touching your toe, and one foot's in front of the other. And when you're in that tandem stance, you are basically standing on your midline. So she had herself in tandem stance and started doing a convergence exercise known as pencil push-ups, where you draw a pencil in towards your nose and take the pencil away. And she said, if you want to improve how you walk, doing this would be much better than practicing trying to walk with your legs turned in. And I was like, so many people are gonna miss what she's saying because they don't understand what it is that's causing the feet to be turned out. And what she's telling us is part of this is perhaps coming from visual input and how the shift in visual input and putting the body on the midline while you're doing the visual input convergence can make shifts in the body where you may be, you know, walking more parallel than turned out after doing an exercise like this. It's not a gimmick, it's rewiring the brain. And I was like, oh, this is so perfect to lead into this discussion about why we're doing what we're doing, because of course we could, in an advanced classroom setting, if we wanted everyone to walk parallel across the floor, we could ask them to turn their likes in and walk that way. But we know that when you're walking through the grocery store, you're likely just looking for the frozen turkey section and not necessarily thinking about how your feet are. And even are you turning your feet in? What's that?

SPEAKER_03

Nor should you be thinking about your feet.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly. It's it's yes. And so the thing is, is we want this not to be just a layer of compensation that you're mechanically trying to put yourself into. We actually want this to occur because you're changing the way the brain understands movement and your environment and your relationship to your environment. Yuka, do you want to add anything to that?

SPEAKER_03

That that is so beautifully put, yes. Um, and I too have brought in, like, because in these workshops, and it's it's slightly different because I'm not in some cases working with a group for an hour and a half, like I get them for 30 minutes, and then they do like seven other rotations in that day. But I have, as you did, and I think this is so brilliant what you do, is to actually like give them ownership and accountability. And then it's up to them if they actually decide to do something with it later. And so just to kind of what happens in these, in like I can at least ascribe to to the like what I do, but it's you're often doing this process called assess and reassess, right? Uh to see if I do this drill, or I do so I'll do a tumbling pass, or I'll do the splits, or I'll do a bridge. And then we spend 20, 30 seconds, sometimes longer, on a specific drill. And then they redo exactly the same thing. So they reassess the exact same thing that they did initially. And does this drill have an effect on me? And so if it does, then they would note down, like, this is a good one, and I can, you know, hopefully they remember it. Um, and so that's the process of what they're logging to understand like these things had a good effect on me. And I think it's also doubly reinforcing, right? Because they've felt it, but now they're actually writing down like this got better, right? So that's another reason it's fantastic because they're just reinforcing to themselves that this was actually beneficial for me. Um, where was I going with this? But yeah, but often I think I wonder the same thing, where like I just I just spent an hour at a conference talking about this, and I gave them some drills, and you get the oohs and ahs, and this is so neat. But then where is the, yeah, where is the carry-through? Um, and I think I myself probably don't do a good enough job of saying, like, this is this is not just a neuro trick, right? Which in these contexts, like I think I mentioned in the last episode, in these contexts where these kids are at the gym for seven hours, they see me for 30 or 40 minutes of that seven hours. And so it to them, it ultimately ends up feeling like brain tricks, right? Because we got an improvement. Um, and I feel like the big thing, and this is actually where I shifted my focus about two and a half years ago, was like, I need to teach the coaches. And I feel like that's because I think in a in a workshop situation, and even when I've taught clinics, so coaches are like, okay, here, you have them. Right. And then they're kind of observing, but the impact is on them understanding, and particularly like in a teacher-led situation in a classroom or in the gym where the coach is really dictating what's happening during that time, more or less, depending on the age and level, but that they understand that neuroplasticity and the changes occur in the same way that learning a new skill occurs. And that's through repetition, focus, and attention. Um and so, yes, I have the same questions. I do every once in a while, and I'm sure you do too, like from doing workshops or speaking, that someone will follow up and say, Oh, I did that thing that you showed me, and I kept doing it and my shoulder got better. Um, so occasionally there's, but yeah, like the point of I think what we're both trying to do is create like real transformation in how these very demanding endeavors go progress, right? So that dancers, gymnasts have greater longevity, have can get more out of their bodies without doing more.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Um, so yes. So it is, it's it's a process. Um it's it can be used. It can be used. Like, yes, I'm backstage and I know just before I go on stage if I do this thing or if I'm competing, and just before I'm competing, if I do this thing, it helps. Like, yes, that can, but that also requires a little bit of assessment, right? But the real changes come when every day I go to practice, I spend whatever amount of time it is, maybe it's three minutes, maybe it's five, maybe it's 15, doing my neural drills integrated with my regular warmup. And then during practice, again, I actually or during rehearsal, right? If I have some downtime and I'm just sitting and waiting, I spend another two minutes. Because then your bot your brain is changing and your body is changing, and then you get more facility with the things that you're already doing. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, I think um sometimes because what we're doing looks very simple, and it's like, oh, this is this is too simple. You know, in these workshops, um, you can I I I think we probably take the similar approach. You can tell me if I'm wrong. But you have to go in layers. I can't just say, hey, do this thing with your eyes while you're doing your tricky skill. Because we have to we have to stack the drills in a way that makes it accessible, especially when we're in a group setting, you know, I have to start basically with vanilla and then what put one sprinkle on the vanilla ice cream at a time. Because if I just say, here, I'm gonna put vanilla, strawberry, and chocolate together and then sprinkle it, oftentimes what we get is just like a collage of something going on, but there's not really a clarity to what is or isn't working. And when you separate it, um, if I say, let's do this visual school skill, and then we test and retest how your body responds, then we know exactly what you're responding to, and we uh know exactly where your threshold is. So sometimes um I was working with someone yesterday, and I thought, okay, they're uh they're a highly skilled dancer. I'm giving them a visual skill. They're going to be able to go from second parallel to a narrow uh stance with their feet in what dancers would call sixth position. So I went wide, second parallel, sixth position, which is just a wide stance to a narrow stance. And as soon as I went narrow, we went backwards. So the body positions play a role in the outcomes for this. And I would I want to, I'm always tempted to say, okay, let's just go into a retro ray and start practicing this visual skill in retroay. But because I know that the layering of the input and how your brain is making adjustments, I tend to be like layer upon layer. And I just separate when I'm teaching early on, I just separate the neural input from the task of like practicing your retroay, if that's what we're doing. So I separate them like you could talked about like here's the eye drill. Okay, repeat that, you know, dance or gymnastics or athletic skill again. Okay, let's do the eye drill again. And we're just watching to see if that eye drill is enhancing what you're doing. And if it is, then eventually as we go further and further along in our journey of training you, then we would add those skills together. But I know because I've tried to add the skill into the movement, it doesn't always go well and it's not benefiting the person like it does when they're separated. And that's just letting us know that this is a layering process. And this layering process is very, very important to actually get you the gains that you want. So um, do you want to add anything to that, Yuka? I don't know how you go about that.

SPEAKER_03

No, that's I love how you state that that it's layering. Yeah, because that's I find it so interesting that when you put the dancer in sixth position, that she actually regressed.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

And it's and and so just to just to kind of talk about that a little bit, because that is a position that probably feels wrong to her body, right? Yes, like anytime, yeah. So, and then so that automatically is registering in some subconscious or even conscious level. Like, why are we standing like this? I don't do this, it is not ballet. How is this going to help me? Right. And that process alone, like who knows? We don't know what she was actually thinking, but that process alone can create a re like a negative effect.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Um, I find that so interesting. Um, and then sometimes you have the opposite because the body, for whatever reason, has is, you know, for lack of a better word, seeking something other than this always, you know, hip torsion position or tension position. And so then when you give it something else, which you have done, right, do the opposite, like actually turn in that they have a great response. Um, but that's so interesting. And yeah, it is, yeah, so to your point, like in and especially in, I mean, we've been talking a lot about in a classroom setting or in a group setting, but also like particularly for and it and in in that, let me just back up, like in that setting, it is slightly more challenging because they have to remember which drills were or which exercises were effective for them because people will have slightly different results. Right. And so, number one, it's important to for them to understand that when sometimes, like, and you've probably had this where like 70% of the room is like, yeah, that was good. And then you've got the other ones kind of looking around that didn't get a result and they didn't get to raise their hand that they had a good effect, right? Um, so it's important to understand, always I explain to the coaches, like it's normal that some will not get a result. And then it becomes a little bit challenging because then you're like, oh, and I feel like, oh, now I gotta find something for these kids or not.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but uh so so in in some ways it's a little bit challenging because we don't know how they're going to react. And as you especially, like when you're when they're all doing things together as a group, like you have to read the room and see how everyone's doing, right? Are they getting more organized, less just less organized? Um, but then this is where the power of an individualized protocol comes in, right? Which is something that particularly for athletes with some autonomy or who are driven to do the things to explain, like these are things you have to do every day. Cause I've had even pretty high-level athletes who care a lot about their performance and their progress. And they're like, Yeah, I've just been doing the drills like twice a week. And so, I'm like, maybe that was my fault that I didn't reinforce that if you're training five days a week, six days a week, it's going to serve you better if you integrate these that many times. And then you will notice the changes happening. Um, yeah, just quick story, especially since it's World Cup time. So we'll be this will come out July 8th, which is a little ways from where we are, but the World Cup will still be going on. But just as an example, so uh this he's German. So this is somebody that I met through like connections in the neurotraining world. He is, he was on the, I think he was on the 2014 World Cup team that Germany won. Um, and so he learned a lot of neurotraining techniques. And then he uh he was like, I was one of these, I was a little older, I was one of these players who like quote, was always injured. And so then he was seeking out like what else can I do? So he wasn't someone who, you know, his trainers or whoever telling him, you're just getting older, this is just what happens. And he was like, There's other things that I can do. So he pursued different avenues, came up on neurotraining. And so he started doing like 20 minutes before practice, he started doing a series of drills that he had worked with a trainer on, right, that were suited for his body. Um, and he felt better, he was performing better, right? It created it enabled him to stay in the game longer. And at first, his teammates would make fun of him, right? Which also you're like, what are you doing? These were and this could this can be a barrier also, right? Um, depending on the environment you're in, depending on your comfort level. So people would make fun of him, and he was like, sure. But then I guess they saw the results. So then eventually he had a small group of play on guys on his team that they would all go through these exercises together. Um, because they clearly at that level, they're going to feel I feel better in practice. Like maybe my knee doesn't, it's hurts me, it bothers me like 20% less than it normally does or used to. Um, but that it takes this regular activation. Um, and again, in in pursuits that are so demanding and asking the body to do things that it's not naturally designed to do at all. Right. That that we can facilitate things with a customized program. And even sometimes it like, you know, doesn't like he clearly he didn't customize these programs for his teammates, but they just followed what he did and they also found an effect. But ideally, right, it's it's it's specific to you. Um, I don't know if you have any stories or individual studies or case studies on your end where they would feel better after doing right a series of drills. I'm sure you'll have tons.

SPEAKER_00

Um and in all fairness, like as I'm thinking about this, you know, it's just so hard, I think, to come in after seeing someone do neurotraining and say, um, you know, well, this is not how I usually warm up my people. That's you know, I can see why that would happen in a in a coach's mind or an instructor's mind. Um but it's more important than just going for biomechanics, like I was uh sharing in that story about just turning the legs parallel and trying to teach yourself to walk that way. Because often people blame, you know, tissue for their problems.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And there's kind of a thing we often hear that the tissue is not the issue, it's the input from the brain. You know, I'm not suggesting that there aren't real injuries. If you have a tendon tear, then clearly you have a tendon tear. But if there's pain signals and there's not any um signs of trauma or anything that we can identify that has occurred to, you know, what might be causing this, some of that as we're seeing the studies start showing and the research showing in neuroscience, some of that is just simply the brain sending a signal of pain. And it can just be a protection mechanism because there's fear. And so um, you know, when you're working with a group, I I would say a good majority of them often have something. You know, a lot of the kids I taught two weeks ago. I think I I counted 15 kids who raised their hand and were saying that they were experiencing knee pain. So I took a minute to do a little bit of neurotraining to address the knee. And I asked how many of them no longer had knee pain after two minutes of a drill. And I think there were two left with knee pain. So amazing, you know, that's I would say reasonable results, you know, that 13 of them, their their pain just magically disappeared with a little bit of neurotraining integration. And then the two, you know, we would need to investigate further, like they may actually have something going on. So it's just something to keep in mind because I know as coaches and instructors, we often have people coming up to us and saying, My blah, blah, blah, blah, blah hurts. And it's not that it's all in the head because I don't want to just count pain. There is a reason it's there, but if The reason is you need more stimulation or you need more feedback or there's not enough sensory input, then it's like, okay, well, let's just see if we can, you know, give the brain more information and get around this issue that we're experiencing at this time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yuga, do you want to that's great? Well, and then so yes, absolutely. Yeah. So pain, pain as a protective response. And so this isn't uh it's something that we both come across all the time. And one, I don't, yeah, we don't need to get too much into like pain as the topic of the conversation. But but for example, right, if if an instructor had at least so that now these dancers can actually take have that drill for them, right? Maybe hopefully the instructor can now know as well, and that they then use that before class, before they feel any pain, right? Um I forgot I was gonna say something, but I don't remember, it doesn't matter. Um uh oh yeah. So when you were talking about, so this is not how I warm up my class.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_03

And so this is in this, is that resistance from the and the their regular instructor about this is not what I is that what you were talking about?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I haven't had anyone say that to but just like I think looking from the outside in, like, this is not how this is not what I do to warm up my class. I don't understand how this is an important step in a warm-up, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um, where it's a very important step in a warm-up from the perspective of the nervous system.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes. Okay, yeah. So to to to to carry on from that, um, yes, and also that it's not just about the tissues. So there's a couple things. So one, and I actually came back from a club where there was a big camp there, but this is also where some of the best male, like the male, best male gymnasts in the US train. And so, of course, I was watching their warm-up. Because I'm like, I want to see what these guys are doing. Cause my hunch is that it's like probably I was like, I actually I didn't know. I was like, I'm gonna just see what they're doing. Maybe they're saying it's doing something different and special. Uh, and they weren't. And so, like, yes, you have to prepare the tissues for what they're going to about to do, which is an immense amount of load and pounding, et cetera. You have to activate the muscles and turn them on before you're gonna ask them to do something extreme, right? Which is what these guys are doing. But there are there are ways to warm up the tissues that are actually coming from the brain centers that regulate that tone, right? As opposed to maybe just rolling or stretching or whatever it might be, right? So, and then on top of that, let's say I did a cerebellar drill and that loosened up my spine and hamstrings.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So A, you've already quote unquote warmed up or kind of like changed the tone, made the tone of your muscles like back to what their more optimal resting tone is. And you've actually turned on the part of the brain, or you've stimulated the part of the brain that is responsible for getting better function out of those muscles. And you've stimulated a part of the brain that's responsible for precision of movement, for detection and correction of errors, for balance, right? For accuracy. So on top of just more, and so this is just like, you know, an advertisement for why you should do these drills, is that it's not just about, oh, I'm like doing these tricks. Like A, you're warming up your body, but at the same time, you're also warming up these brain centers, these brain structures that are critical for movement, and you're also warming up your visual system, your vestibular system, which are going to be critical for movement. Um I didn't, I showed one of them later on. I had a chat with one of them, and I just showed him like fingers, like just some like complex nonlinear drills for his hands. And they were not easy for him. And I was like, that's interesting. Um, right. So someone who's at the highest levels of the sport, like cannot do some really basic coordination drills. Uh, so he was like, Oh yeah, we should incorporate these into training. I'm like, yes, you should. Right. In a sport where they, so, so just to make the point that it's not just about, A, it's not just about the tricks, B, you're preparing your body and your brain more optimally for movement. And very often it will be more efficient. Right. And I think also of collegiate gymnasts who are coming in from class, they have to hurry up and warm up. Um, and my hunch is that they may not be doing a sufficient job because they're kind of time crunched. And so this is a perfect, if there are any college coaches out there listening or college athletes out there listening, this is a perfect thing to implement into your warm-up because it's gonna get you ready faster and then more completely. So that your visual system is turned on, yeah. Um, among other things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Uh and that just reminds me of someone that I saw this week who wasn't spotting and she, you know, was at a level of performance that she could have been spotting. Um and the instructor in the room was super frustrated and saying all the things to say to get the kid to spot, and she was not spotting. And later I just said, I it it's her nervous system. It's inhibiting her from spotting, but there's some some safety mechanism, that's what I see that as because she's not she's not a lazy student, she's a smart student. So you're sitting there looking at this dancer, you know, in this situation, who's who you know is hardworking and you know that she's intelligent, and you're wondering why isn't she doing this? I'm telling her to do it, and I'm telling her what the problem is, why isn't she fixing the problem? And sometimes students get a bad rap, they're like labeled as not listening or not trying. But for the dancer, you cannot overcome a mechanism sent out by the brain to keep you safe. So as hard as she may have wanted to try, um, if there's something in her visual system or her vestibular system going on that's kind of creating a sense of instability or some kind of threat while she's turning, which can definitely happen with turning motions, she can hear spot 500 times in a row and cannot overcome the sense that she has to stay stacked the way she is in order for safety. And that is something that I just mentioned, you know, to the instructor. I said, well, there's something that's keeping her from spotting, and it's something in the nervous system. So if you recognize that the nervous system is inhibiting or and or initiating things, then making time, as Yuka just said, you know, um, for a nervous system warm-up, like that is the key to getting more out of your performance because it's not just accuracy and coordination, it's inhibition and initiation. It's allowing them to be, uh, if you're the coach or the instructor, it's allowing those people that you're working with to be open in a way to actually um be able to put into motion those things you're asking because the nervous system is relaxed and receptive.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's that, and I think you talk about this a lot is it's it's a lot about so in some cases it could be a combination of upregulating some systems that are going to help you, but then at the same time, and at the same time doing that may actually help create more safety for the brain, like a sense of safety. So, and when we say that, it's it's the brain is interpreting all of your incoming inputs from the your outside of your body and inside of your body to understand what's going on and then to like, do I feel like I am safe right now? And so if the answer from any of that is no, for example, like maybe for this dancer, doing rapid eye movements makes her nervous system interpret that as not safe, right? As a threat.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so it's a combination of reducing threat, making the brain feel safe. And when that happens, performance is going to elevate because right, it's like I the analogy is like the gate comes up or the right, the the brakes come off, um, and you can push the pedal more. Um, so yes. Yeah, I love that. Um do we have anything else we want to No, no? Yeah, this was nice. It was just kind of more of like a casual or sort of like kind of how do I say it, just kind of flowing conversation. But this is the sort of thing that we talk about all the time anyway, and this is part of the reason we started the podcast, or like we talk about this stuff all already. Um but yeah, just just kind of in closing, the it's it's not just brain hacks or brain tricks. Like the point of this, the point of neurotraining is to rewire the brain. That's the name of the podcast, right? It's be rewiring performance because the brain is driving what we're capable of. Um, and so doing regular, integrated, ideally customized drills is going to rewire your brain so that your movement is going to change. All right. So if uh you haven't subscribed yet, please subscribe. We have a YouTube channel that we'll link below. So we have some drills there that we've talked about in previous episodes. Uh rate us, leave a review just to help other people find the podcast. And by all means, if you enjoy this, please share it with your colleagues. All right, so with that, uh thank you for joining another episode of Performance Rewired. Do it again.

SPEAKER_01

One more time, do it again. One more time, do it again. One more time, one more time, one more time, one more time, one more time.