Eat with Dominique

The Gluten-Free Mac & Cheese Every Gluten-Free Girl Needs — NYC’s S’MAC

• Dom • Season 1 • Episode 5

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0:00 | 57:21

Raise your hand if you grew up loving mac and cheese — only to suddenly be unable to eat it once you went gluten-free.🙋🏾‍♀️

Same.

Today I’m chatting with Sarita Ekya, founder of S’MAC, the iconic New York City mac and cheese restaurant that has become a go-to for the gluten-free and allergy-friendly communities.

In this episode, we talk about what it actually takes to make gluten-free comfort food taste just as good as the version you grew up with.

We also discuss:
• How endless mac-and-cheese taste-testing led to Sarita developing her own gluten allergy
• Why removing all-purpose flour from their recipes required her engineering degree
• The surprising challenge of creating a vegan cheese that people actually want to eat
• Why the celiac community gives the most meaningful feedback
• The deeper mission behind building a restaurant where everyone can eat
• And the most underrated ingredient in any mac and cheese

This episode is especially for women navigating gluten-free or gut-friendly living who still want comfort food that actually tastes good.

If you’ve ever missed the foods you grew up with — or wondered whether gluten-free versions could ever live up to the original — this conversation is for you.

If this episode resonates, subscribe and share it with a fellow gluten-free, gut-friendly friend.

Now, without further ado — grab a seat, and let’s Eat With Dominique.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

💌 If you’re navigating gluten-free or gut-friendly living, the Eat With Dominique newsletter is where everything connects — early access to full recipes, practical gut-health tips, community polls, and exclusive brand codes.
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This podcast is all about actionable tips, trustworthy brands, and real strategies to make gluten-free, gut-friendly living easier, tastier, and pain-free.

So whether it’s life or food — make it Good To You, Good For You, and Good With You™.

Sarita Ekya Photo in Thumbnail by Matt Petres, IG @matt.petres                                                           

#glutenfree #founderstory #celiacawareness #womeninbusiness #foodentrepreneurship

SPEAKER_00

We are working crazy hours working so much fact and features like case testing things over.

SPEAKER_01

I was in New York this past summer and I was looking for some booster three Mac and C's. And honestly, I actually wasn't expecting much, but then I found SMAC. And now like I have to go back every single time I go to New York City. And so I guess like let's go back to the beginning and how did SMAC actually start?

SPEAKER_00

So uh SMAC started all yeah, over this is our 20th year of business. So the idea was conceived over 20 years ago because uh it was in 2005. My husband and I just moved to New York City, and uh we're both engineers. I'm a mechanical engineer, he's a software engineer, and we just we got pulled by the city, and so we landed in the East Village, fell in love with the neighborhood, and just started eating out like crazy because New York. Yeah, and we were like, you know, like almost like breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We were like kind of overdosing just because we were so enamored by so many different places, and we really love the niche restaurants because it wasn't something that you saw uh what seemed to be outside of the city. And so we just started eating at a lot of these niche restaurants. So we landed ourselves at the peanut butter company, and we were eating our PBJ sandwiches, and I said to my husband, I was like, wouldn't it be great if there's a place that did fist, grilled cheese, and mac and cheese? Ah, mac and cheese. That's the next place we're gonna go eat, is the mac and cheese place. And guess what? It didn't exist, it didn't exist in New York, and from what all of our research showed didn't exist anywhere. And we were just kind of like, wow, this is weird. Like it's mac and cheese. There seems to be a restaurant for almost everything else. Right. And so uh it was just this idea. We couldn't shake it. And you know, we both had the entrepreneurial bug for sure, like we wanted to open our own company. We just thought it'd be more engineering related. Uh, but this was an idea, like we were and we were already in a transition period because we just, you know, we had quit our jobs just to move to the city. So it was kind of this thing, you know, it just seemed to make sense for us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Were you coming from somewhere else in New York or were you coming from Canada?

SPEAKER_00

Or no, uh we were coming from New Hampshire, Manchester, New Hampshire. Yeah, we were both working there.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, that's incredible. Um, so like you said, you're a mechanical engineer and your husband is a software engineer. So food wasn't the background that you had. But what would you say about your background um helped you build this business?

SPEAKER_00

You know, so much of our engineering uh gets applied to this world of restaurants. Uh, it's one of those things where, you know, my mom always asked me, or she used to waste like you did you didn't waste your engineering degree, right? I'm like, no, no. And I would have to say no, because that is like one of the hardest degrees to go through. Like, it is so arduous and a lot of work. So nope, it goes away because engineers are problem solvers, right? So uh in restaurants, you're solving problems every day. And one really kind of beautiful thing about uh having an engineering background is we approached a restaurant a little differently, right? So we chose a food that was, you know, America's comfort food, right? So, and we both love to cook. So coming up with the recipes was not difficult for me. It's all the other pieces. And since we were the first people ever to open a just mac and cheese place, we opened with a lot of traditional kitchen equipment and realized, oh, this doesn't work for our model because we are trying to do fresh batch cooking in a very quick time, right? So it's like we're so fast casual, we're so quick, but we are making everything from scratch. So that's where our engineering skills came into play. Like we went out and it was a research project. You know, we tested so many different ovens, so many different pieces of equipment. We'd come with our mac and cheese cold, we'd come with our laptops, and all these people, salespeople or uh chefs who would see us or working for those companies selling the equipment, would look at they're like, Are you guys chefs? Like, nope, we're engineers. Like, okay, this makes way more sense because like how your approach to this is like very different, right? So uh that that basically allowed us to create this amazingly tight and efficient system in the kitchen to get our product out the best way possible without sacrificing ingredients and quality and freshness. Um, same went with takeout packaging. We originally started with aluminum foil packaging and like a plastic top. And our mac and cheese comes out hot. So you can only imagine trying to put that plastic top on a left. So that was like a whole other year project, honestly. So we we that we did so many of those projects. Um so that's kind of like the more traditional, like mechanical, and my husband knows electro electrical software. Then you pivot into the food science, right? So there's all of that. So when we started uh becoming allergen-friendly and offering different types of um variations to feed people who had specific limitations with what they could eat, that I call that a whole food science thing because we had to learn so much, we had to taste and taste test so much, we had to look at different properties and ingredients. Uh so again, all engineering. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I know you said that like you're c originally coming up with those first recipes, you kind of had experience with cooking. So you had you cooked a lot before then, like the idea of creating recipes wasn't intimidating at all.

SPEAKER_00

No, and I think that's funny because one of the first things people ask me is like, oh my gosh, how did you come up with recipes? Right. You won't believe how I mean it would work, but it was the easiest part of opening this restaurant. Yeah, it really is like you can turn almost anything into a mac and cheese if you just have to learn proportions and right like it's so fun. Like I have so many different flavors that I want to hit the menu just for like the small space in it. And sometimes people find it overwhelming to begin with when they walk in. They're like, Oh, I have so many different choices, so I don't want to overwhelm people anymore. But we like you can throw out some random dish and I could probably turn it into a mac and cheese because it's like the nature of the food.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, that isn't so incredible because I feel like when you're a kid and you have mac and cheese, you just think of like the basic, you know, like heat up in the microwave. And when I went to your restaurant, it was amazing because you do it. There's like cheese I'd never heard of before. And then I tried it and I was like, oh, this is really good. Like, so that was really awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Uh like a funny side story to that. So a week before we opened Smack, we had all of our recipes, and we have a classic, like a four cheese, right? And we kind of like literally didn't think about putting like a really basic mac and cheese on the thing, right? And a week before, we're like, oh, you know, I guess we should put this on because you know that's what some people like the kids might want it.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, like the all-American, one of our best sellers. Also, not just the kids, the adults want it. Yeah because that's what they're used to to a lot of the times, right? Right. So it was so funny. I was thinking, oh my gosh, we didn't even think about putting like, you know, just where your brain is at while you're like going through this process, you look back and go, oh my gosh, of course it was a no-brainer, but it wasn't to us at the time because we weren't we weren't trying to create a restaurant that was just for kids. You know, this was an adult restaurant that you could bring kids to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very true. That's really funny. I think I actually got the whole American one over there. So I guess I would have been I would have been out of out of luck.

SPEAKER_00

I think we would have figured that out pretty quickly after we open that, like, uh oh, we don't have something that people are like trying to say, what's like kind of like craft, but not you know what I mean? Right.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like also when you first go, it's like your first entry and you're like, okay, like I'm trying it out, I'm feeling it out. And then each time you come, you're trying something new. So I feel like the All America is a good like entry point. A hundred percent. When you first opened up the restaurant 20 years ago, did you ever think you would still be here today?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, you know, it's it's we did. We we we we believed so much in this idea. We also thought we'd be more than one restaurant by this point, and we did try and grow and then contracted, and now we're kind of back at that again. Uh, you know, you throw in a hurricane, you throw in a pandemic, and then things look a little different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's just kind of it's kind of weird to be on this end of it to say, oh, it's been 20 years. But we always believed in the idea. We we definitely thought that smack would still be around. We also thought smack would be in many more places than it is, but still working on that anyhow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean it is incredible, like you said, because I've never like I've never come across anywhere else that's doing what you guys are doing. And when I went, like you said, I feel like like most good ideas, and you hear it, you're like, well, obviously, like, why would there not be a mac and cheese restaurant when no one's doing it and you guys did it, which I think is really incredible.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And there are people coming and saying, I thought of this idea. I'm like, you know what? This is I believe it because this is this these are like there's we it can't be just us having this idea, right? It's people have the same idea all of us just a matter of whether you execute it or not. Because ideas are forming in our minds every day. Right. All of us.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, the idea is neither or diamond doesn't, but it's like you said, it's always the execution of who actually will put in the work and do that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What's something people don't see, or maybe that they like underestimate about what it takes to run a restaurant?

SPEAKER_00

I think that most people don't see the fact that there's so many moving parts and and every single one of them is so important. So uh I'll try to put anything example-wise, because there's just so many things that have to happen to make this customer experience go right. Right? So if say you have a huge thing happen, your half your ovens break down, that's a huge deal. That's a very costly, huge deal that you have to deal with. But guess what? In the meantime, um, you know, maybe let's I'm trying to think of something else. Um maybe you've got like a outage, uh like a electrical outage, right? So you can't so like our kiosk are working. So like these, like every little thing, um your cilantro didn't come in today. So now you have to go all the local the local person who doesn't have cilantro right now too. So it's like all these little things are all almost equally important. Like you would think, oh, cilantro, who cares? So like, no, because the person who orders that dish is the kind of food that if you don't have the dish that they want, that's the reason they came to the restaurant, right? That is one reason they they you know they want the masala mac and it has to have the cilantro. Right. And so now you've got someone scrambling to get that, to come back, to chop it. Like, so it's like even the littlest things if that goes wrong, it can really cause this effect, like this big snowball effect that you would think wouldn't be a problem, but it can be a problem. And uh I think people don't see that because they're not living it. You know, you're going in to experience something and and you're not seeing the behind the scenes, and why would you? Because that's not what part of this this experience is. You're not supposed to see the behind the scenes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. When you first started, did you think like did you ever expect those sort of things to be issues? And I guess what I mean by that is like you're like, oh, like one day we won't be dealing with those issues. You know what I mean? When you like have a goal and you forget to think about, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I'd say I still say that's what I have like a lot of 20 years ago because I'm still dealing with a spectrum outage, like, please. Yeah, right. And it's still like complicated. Yes, we have ways around it, but it's still like complicated, right? It's not still easy because something's not working.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Um, so you talked about how like when you first launched, you had your set recipes. When did like the gluten-free side of the menu first like enter into the world of Smack?

SPEAKER_00

So we opened in June in 2006. 2007 is when we took on gluten-free as a project. Um, I remember someone emailing me in shortly after we opened, and they were like, hey, I'm gluten-free. Can I come to your restaurant if I bring my own pasta? And honestly, I didn't know what gluten-free was. And I was like, Oh, who's my dog? And I said, sure. So this person never showed up, and thank goodness they didn't, because guess what? Our bechamel at the time was made with all-purpose flour, right? So uh, and then I started like kind of hearing a little bit more about gluten-free. It wasn't something that I had heard much of. So we're talking 2006. So then uh, and this is also in New York City where you know, yeah, there's a lot of everything going on. Uh so then we started looking into it and like, oh, this is this is huge, like between like actually gluten intolerance and celiac, like this is a big deal. And like this is a you know, a decent part of the population like that can't that doesn't get to eat pasta or that doesn't get to eat this, or there's not really that great options that um that are out there. So we decide we're gonna take that on. You know, we are going to try to do this, and if we can't do it safely, we're not doing it. And that was the first thing. In the meantime, so this is 2007. Yes. So then interestingly enough, we're developing all of this. I believe it hit our menu in 2008, if I'm not correct. Um ended up, you know, going through all like going through so much research. I mean, it was fun, but it was also like, oh my gosh, are we ever gonna get there? Right. And the reason being that at first off you're talking in 2007, where there's not a lot of food and free alternatives, right? So you're ta so and then we are also now already becoming more allerg allergen friendly in that sense. Like we're thinking about these things like, okay, if we're gonna introduce this, we can't like we didn't want to introduce corn pasta. Because a lot of people can't have corn pasta. Like, okay, let's find a rice pasta, let's find a rice pasta that we can source. Let's find um let's find we need to find things that have minimal ingredients because that's what we were, that's what we were all about from day one. We're not putting things on the menu that people can't recognize labels on, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So we're doing that. We are like, how do we how do we do this with all purpose flour in the restaurant? We're a very small place, we're a very tight kitchen. We can't okay, biggest this is now the biggest, biggest, biggest challenge is how do you eliminate all-purpose flour from all the recipes that people have been eating now for over a year? Right.

SPEAKER_01

Without changing the flavor either, because they like the way that it does.

SPEAKER_00

So all-purpose flour not only has its own distinct like non-flavor, it also has certain properties.

SPEAKER_02

Right?

SPEAKER_00

It has binding properties, has reheating properties, it has uh like there's so many things there. We're like, okay, great, we had no idea. Right. Engineering project. Uh, and because we have to be able to make sure that whatever flowerslash flowers we're gonna use, they have to take not they have to basically be tasteless, right? They have to reheat properly, they have to freeze properly, they have to because some people would get refrigerated, throw it in the freezer, some people would cook it in the up microwave, we'll cook it in the other. All we had to go through all that testing. And at the time, again, gluten-free flowers weren't really, you know, wasn't it wasn't like there was a ton of gluten-free flowers out there. Yeah. And so then we went to Bob's Red Mill, you know, right? Bob was testing, and we were like, okay, what are the gluten-free flowers offered by Bob's Redmill because they're very safe. Because that's something we needed to make sure it was safe and actually gluten-free. And we did we basically did combinations of things, taste tested to get friends to taste test, and then what we used to do, we were we were all with a restaurant back in those days, right? Like every ship, me or my husband was always there. So we would we started giving our regulars, whoever ordered all American, is all American has the least distinctive flavor out of all of the right, because it's just cheeses, right? So we would give them their all-American, and then we would give them an all-American with whatever we were testing, right? We're like, try this and come back. And it wasn't until one of our regulars came back and he said, That new one you gave me, I like that one better. And they're like, There's our combo.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, that's perfect, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. So then we were able to eliminate all purpose flour out of it, because then now it's like, okay, our bechamel is always made with potato flour and sweet rice flour. That's the combo, right? Always. So now no, then it's like bread crumbs. You can't have gluten. So then we started making our own breadcrumbs. Um, and so that was basically, and so then really that the really the bechamel was the biggest challenge. And then the breadcrumbs we were able to figure out because also there's gluten-free bread out there, right? So we were able to like, and that was that was available. Uh at the time, the only problem again was it was if it had other stuff in it, right? So we actually started out with like we did end up doing corn, corn, uh, corn and soy breadcrumbs for a while. We wanted to get those things off the menu as a file and we were able to find a gluten-free bread that was, you know, was allergen-friendly in other aspects too. We we end up doing that.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. It's so cool to hear, like you were saying, like that engineering process though, like the iterative, like keep testing, keep like improving, and then once you find something, then okay, what's the next thing to improve and iterate and all of that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. And then and we were we were very much uh excited to launch. Then after we launched it, a year later, I got pregnant. Uh sorry, then at while we're while we were testing it, yes, it was, yeah. Sorry, it wasn't after we launched it. Of course, while we were testing it, I was like thinking timeline. Yes, shortly after we started researching it and whatever, then we were working crazy hours. I was eating so much mac and cheese, I was eating so much like taste testing things. Uh, so I was gluten overload. So my body started to reject gluten. Wow. So it was funny because we were like coming like through all of this taste testing, and then all of a sudden now the we're we're putting a product on that I could finally eat, right? Because it was like during all the same time frame. Like, what are the chances of something like this happening?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And then um, so that was like yeah, 2007, and then in 2000, 2007 and eight, I was completely gluten-free. Um, and 2009, I got pregnant with my son, and I was able to eat gluten. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. That's crazy. That's a whirlwind. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00

It was so weird, and it was just the weirdest thing. I was like, how is this even possible? Like, how is it? But it seemed the timing of it worked out really well. It's okay, I have to be, I was like, I have to be able to eat my own product. Thank goodness we're developing something that I could I could eat safely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's perfect timing. Wow. Um, were there any other way that gets that your own like gluten allergy or any other like family food allergies kind of shaped how you thought about you needed to serve with as you iterated on the menu?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so my husband has a shellfish allergy. So right off the bat, we were not gonna have shellfish on there. And even still people ask us, like, oh, why don't you have a lobster Mac or a crab Mac? And we're like, you know, we're just now we're so allergen-friendly, like, we don't want to introduce shellfish to the red restaurant. At first it was because we can't have him sick, right? Right. And then it was like, okay, and so kind of as time went on, and probably as social media got bigger, because when we first stopped it, what what what was social media didn't really exist, right? In 2006. Um, as social media got bigger, then we realized, oh, people are really like seeking us out because they know they can eat at our place safely. So once we started realizing that to be like, okay, what let's go through everything in our restaurant and see what needs to stay or go. So then we used to have peanut butter cookies gone. Uh we used to get cookies uh delivered that we actually have our we actually get dough and we take it off on our own so like totally separate so um we uh what else did we do you know looking at like sesame um didn't have sesame in there okay we're not adding it so so that was getting more interesting because as we were trying to add ingredients in or do things we always now have this kind of list like okay we don't want to we um which kind of probably I said I'm jumping ahead of it but then our next project was putting vegan on the menu as the easy option and a big problem with that was especially again we're looking at like we we we started and stopped that so many times because we couldn't come up with something that we thought was delicious enough.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Because at the time all of the alternate cheese options had a probably an ingredient list that you would know 98% of 98 out of 100 ingredients you would know.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And they didn't taste good and we couldn't also afford to have someone who wasn't vegan try that because a lot of people who order a vegan aren't vegan they're dairy free. So they get the vegan they add sausage in or they get ground beef in it right yeah yeah yeah so when we were looking at things a lot of the vegan options for vegan cheese the ones that tasted good were the ones that had cashew in them and right we were like we're not adding nuts in no because now we're allergen friendly and uh we had multiple friends who had kids with severe allergies and a lot like I think you know just seeing that seeing how hard it is for people to eat out and then just you know you would have this whole set of customers like I would say our feel like customers are probably our most grateful and and thoughtful customers in far as far as like the feedback they give us just because I think that they're just so appreciative that they can eat. And and to me it's like that's part of our ethos like we want people to eat mac we want people to eat at a restaurant who maybe could not eat anywhere else or could not eat haven't had mac and cheese since they were little or you know that kind of thing. So so that's that's driven us forward and we you see the you see like the results because you see people happy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah no it's very true. I mean I think something that's like amazing that I'm hearing is kind of like this like through line of being loyal to your customers. Like you said like we're not going to add this just because it would be like easier or like just to have an option that's not really the best for them but still is technically vegan or whatever. I think that's really cool. And I know um like when I went to your restaurant my friend had another allergy and so that was really cool because she could eat there like I would now do both to eat there and it definitely like you said made everyone happy and that was really awesome.

SPEAKER_00

That's it was just great like that we want everyone I to be able to eat there. I think there was I think there was one yes I think I've had one customer there not they were you know people emailing me asking me for like ingredient lists and stuff like that just to make sure it's safe and there was one person who couldn't eat I felt so bad they couldn't eat bear because they couldn't have any type of oil on their food.

SPEAKER_01

And you know when we cook our pasta we toss it in oil and there was something there was something and then what other one like oh my gosh I don't think I don't know if we could this is the one person I was like I don't know what we could do here right yeah um uh and that because there was one other thing that they couldn't have uh and it was just one of those things where I was like racking my brain like how do we make this work how do we make this work safely like oh this is a little bit too much of a risk because there's like olive oil everywhere in our milk yeah yeah yeah we saw pay vegetables with it which yeah so it was one of those things like oh no um but yeah it was it was I was troubled by it because I'm like oh my god I've never had to say no to someone yeah yeah wow that's pretty good though one time out of all these out of 20 years that's pretty good yeah yeah yeah thank you yeah um is there anything that you have had to like learn or unlearn or kind of like rebuild as you are making like a gluten free menu and making it like actually safe as you said not just something that's on the menu but not maybe safe for people to eat so I think it's all it's like a continuous learning process and a lot of that comes with feedback from customers.

SPEAKER_00

So for instance like in our vegan we when we finally honed in on a vegan recipe we actually didn't use any substitute cheese we actually used a coconut milk base right and that's to make it so it's like a creamy pasta but it really does look and taste like a mac and cheese but there's no baked cheese in it. And one one thing about that was we our part of our ingredients for the vegan is we use marmite in there. And you know at we had offered this in the vegan and then one of our gluten free customers told us when we first started that she was she's like I'm ordering the vegan um I know it gluten free I know it has marmite in it. She goes but did you know that marmite's not technically gluten free and I was like what? Yeah really because it we put such a trace about it it's basically for that umami flavor but it's such a like you know how you know how dense and strong marmite is or have you ever tried marmite or vegmite? Okay so literally like you lick it and it's like it's like licking like miso paste or something right like really really strong um and so I said well how come you can eat it and she's I don't know but I can and then I looked so here we go Google right of like what's going on so I'm on all these message boards being messed like for some reason a lot of celiacs are gluten tolerant people can will will and can eat marmite right but I did not know that so when people ask me hey is your vegan gluten free I'm like here's the deal so why this is this I'll be as transparent you know this we have marmite it's a trace amount and we have a ton of celiacs including people who eat it but it does have marmite in it right so that's that's up for up to you up to you to choose. But again like that that was such a learning experience for me because I had no idea.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah I've never had marmite before that's fascinating though that's really interesting. Yeah yeah wow um so from the beginning you said that mac and cheese should be for everyone why would you say like from the beginning that was so important for you know I think for us it we weren't even necessarily thinking in terms of food allergies right away.

SPEAKER_00

I think when we said we want mac and cheese to be food to be for everyone we're like okay this is uh food that so many people like we'll say the majority of the population likes or loves it right I'm just going to draw like 95% of the population probably close to accurate um and we always kind of focused on the price point right we want it we're like we want our food to be accessible and that was the forward what was dropped in our head that this is needed to be an accessible food uh people should be able to afford this right so that was that was a big one for us and then as we opened and realized oh there's okay what what dietary restrictions prohibit people from actually eating our food then that then like okay now now this is how we more be more inclusive this is how we it'll get more people to enjoy our food and be happy like you know our our core purpose is to give goodness like how do you give goodness you want to give goodness to everyone right so so that was it kind of that was like an evolution for us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah that's amazing that's a great ethos to have as well I feel like mac and cheese is like the embodiment of goodness as a food I feel like that is like yeah we we we always like we always call it cheesy goodness so it's like you learn cheesy goodness it was so funny.

SPEAKER_00

I think I put it on Instagram the other day one of our customers um I wasn't there but one of our customers when they put their name in for a takeout they put cheesy goodness so one of my staff members that's cute took a picture and sent me the receipt I'm like oh my gosh I'm like I was like we're tracking with our customers. Yeah yeah that's perfect um over the years how have you seen this increase in like gluten free options um kind of enhance the experience for your customers yeah I would say you know it's it's got so much traction like we got written up on we've we've been just written up on so many gluten free blogs on websites and travel guides in on now obviously Instagram and TikTok it's really spread like like a lot and and and not only is the word out there um what's really really cool to see is like I'll see customers and they'll come every year and they'll make their first top smack or they'll have the suitcase like I have to have my gluten free mac and cheese you know I have to have it it's like and they they all the trips they come to come to smack because it's like they're like we know we can have it we know we can have it safely this is like on the to-do list.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah I mean it really is amazing like I I don't think I've had it since I was a kid like back when I was eating like gluten and everything. And so having it for the first time like as an adult I was like this is amazing like I literally was shocked to even see it existed and then the fact that it was actually good I was like that's insane. Like I tell everyone about it now.

SPEAKER_00

Well it's funny because I actually don't like I I obviously don't have my gluten allergy anymore but I always get the gluten free pasta. Like I'm that I just I never stopped doing that. Yeah um because I just like I and then I always tell people like well I'm like it doesn't taste different I know we worked so hard yeah to make sure this doesn't taste different yeah and it it really doesn't it's just like the shape of the pasta is a little different. That's it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah no it's amazing. I know you talked about like the cheesy goodness um name at your customer left have there been any other like customer moments or anything where you've been like okay like this is why we do this. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

Um so many so many of those uh yeah I think the biggest one and now this is pre-pand I'm like pre-pandemic I'm trying to think of how like you know because the timeline um so probably like oh my gosh this I don't know if this is maybe even 10 years ago we had um this woman emailed me and her son was literally dying like he was he was a pediatric cancer patient and one of the and and he was being treated as low catering and they we used to pick a smack for him. He was young like five and but he was a foodie like loved food new food new ingredients like just new and he loved smack so one of his like just before like he passed away one of the things he asked for was snack so she sent me pictures of him oh my gosh she sent me pictures of him eating a snack in the hospital and thank thanking us for providing this right like this is yeah this I mean I actually after this in after this injury I have to go back and read the emails again and then when um when he ended up passing away one of her friends had emailed me and said hey you know um week's passed and we're going to have uh have a celebration of life for him could we order some smack and I was like absolutely and it was just outside the city I was like I'd like to if you guys if if this is okay with you I would like to bring it you know I would love to bring it and or if I don't want to intrude I don't know how big this is but and they're like no absolutely so I went and met the parents and uh honestly I was like oh my gosh like to be in that kind of scenario in your life and to thank us for providing something so special to there's like I was like how you you just you made someone feel really good me our staff everyone our staff like everyone there was just like wow this was so lovely that they shared it with us but also it felt like okay this is why we do these things you know this is it like you're you're actually making people happy and and same thing when I brought the smack to the celebration of life and and it was just one of those things where you don't have brought his favorites and and um yeah it was just really really nice to meet everyone and to to share that to think wow this was this actually affected um your son and you and in such a positive way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah wow that is an a that really is an amazing story.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah yeah it's incredible that that one that one sticking around for life you know that's like a piece of my sliver of my heart yeah yeah no definitely wow um what would you say has been like the hardest part or the most rewarding part of doing gluten free the right way um I think the hardest part is always just you know making sure that whenever you hire new people or you have some you know something gets changed in the kitchen that okay everything still has to remain as safe as possible people have to understand the importance of this right and uh and so you always like making sure your training systems are are tight and staying on top of that. I mean I won't lie there's people there's been like one or two accounts where people have said hey like I think I might have got some cross contamination I'm like okay I I I don't I I we train everyone but I don't I can't say that that's not true. Right like I don't I I don't know. So again that's been very few and far between but but I think that's the most challenging thing just being making sure that every time a gluten free dish goes out like all these protocols are followed.

SPEAKER_01

And so uh the staff is very good about that and uh we will can you have to you but you have to continue to stay on top of that and and stress that importance right uh rewarding it's basically I think the most rewarding thing is just um really hearing the feedback from the customers and how happy they are right is it isn't incredible to see like the impact I think that food can have in like bringing people together and just making them feel like at home and just yeah literally comfort food like the definition of comfort food.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right like and and you know um kind of to piggyback on uh just a much kind of smaller story but still story I remember there was this woman and she came in shortly after we had opened and she was on the phone and she was really aggravated and she was giving us this really really hard time because she needed uh something delivered and I my delivery guys were gone home for the day. This is when we used to have our own this is like pre like the grub hub delivery right all this is like we had your own delivery staff. Right. And I was like I don't I'm like there's only two of us here we can't uh we can't run it out and she was really she was super mad and then about 15 minutes later she came in and she ordered her snacks she sat down she sat at the table and she just cried she just cried for like the next 10 minutes and and I just checked in on her and then after she kind of composed herself she's like you know I was just having the absolute worst day so many things went wrong and I just wanted this and I'm so happy to have it and thank you and like and then she was like you know I'm and I'm sorry if I was hurt on the phone and I then you just like oh my gosh like you just don't know you don't know what people are going through right and not that that gives anyone like the A okay to like harass service worker definitely not but but just to see how after eating her smack how her mood had changed.

SPEAKER_01

Like she just felt a little bit happier and that changed her you know yeah yeah no exactly it's like sometimes you need like that one thing to be like okay even if everything else my day is going wrong to have like the one meal that's like always there like always it's kind of like a show that you like right like you're like okay if I watch this I'm gonna be like laugh or whatever like whatever's happening I'll laugh. It's like that with I think with math for people and I think that's really really awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah and I think also looking back on it now it's like when you're in such a such a a dark space and so unhappy it's like you are still looking for something that you have control of right she calls us and she's lost she lost control because things come to her right so it's like she now doesn't have control of that either right it's like okay but she she controlled it she came in and she got it yeah yeah that's very true.

SPEAKER_01

So this is as you said it's your 20th year in business which is really really incredible.

SPEAKER_00

When you look back is there anything that you're most proud of oh you know that's that's always a hard question. It's like um what where where do you go here? I I would say the one thing that I'm most proud of is creating a workplace that um our staff is super happy to be at that you know we've had like I said this is 20 years. I've had staff members there for 17 plus years. Wow um and before you know and I can always marker that because like is it like not going into like the files and plug I can always marker that because when my son's 16 plus and these guys were with me when before I was or when I was pregnant. These guys were there right so um yeah so creating like that kind of place that was something also that was super important to us going into this business we came from white collar jobs we had no idea or like limited ideas on how poorly people were treated in the service world. Right. So we would come in we'd hire people and people would just kind of assume how you're gonna treat them or you're that they're not gonna get their paycheck or oh really well what's what tips pooling I'm not gonna get my tip like because they had been burned so many times in the past and we were like okay this this is not how we plan to operate right so for us it was like right off the bat I'm like okay you know you're you guys get paid vacation you guys get MetroCard like all these things they're like seems like kind of the bare minimum like when you're at a white collar job you get those right like uh but there so there was this like kind of period of trust too uh I remember when we first opened and we used to we were kind of taught because we we know we asked the restaurant consultants I was like how like how does pay work and that they're like people get paid by shift pay I'm like okay interesting that's not where I come from but we're salarie I was like I'll really salary and so they're like yeah yeah you know and then people work by shift so if you need them for 10 hours or 12 hours they're getting paid by shift pay I'm like oh this seems odd yeah we started with the shift pay and shortly thereafter like this is so wrong we're like shift pay does not seem like the right thing to do. So we sat everyone down and we said listen we are going to go hourly now so that everyone gets paid properly because you are going to start working overtime. Right and there was like three people they're like no we want to stay with shift pay and I'm like no I we're we're not but and there's the math behind it and but they were convinced that they were just that the that their employer us has found a way to screw them over right like this is right so so I remember when the first checks came with the actual hourly plus overtime they were like in shock because they're like oh my gosh this is actually beneficial to me exactly but you can't but like it's like you can't undo what's done to right so that was another that so to me I was like this was really a big deal for both me and my husband and we still have a lot of work to do on that you know in that realm as far as like you know we want to get we we really aspire to give staff not just training at the restaurant but like life skill training there's a lot of things that we want to do and we're in they're in progress uh but that's that's that is one thing that I have to say I really am proud of like to we've created a workplace in an industry that's otherwise a lot of times cutthroat difficult because difficult work to be in with you're on your feet it's when it's busy it's busy you know when it rains it pours and people always want to eat at the same time right yeah so it it's it's not an easy physical and mental job we know hospitality is not easy right so all those things are difficult so we want to make it the most peaceful and harmonious place as possible in the industry as we could. And That's been super important to us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, I mean, that's and again, I feel like it all goes back to your ethos of like just goodness for people in general and doing what's best for people. And then also seeing again the engineering thing of like, well, this didn't work, so why don't we try out the hourly? Because the shift wasn't working. Like, I just think that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. For us, it was also like, why are we we kind of went because we went into so many things blindly. Right. It's like, okay, this is, and that's that's I think where the engineering thing comes in. Like you like you you just accept, you accept people are mostly accepting how the industry operates. But for us, it was like, well, that's no, we can change it. Like we can why aren't we changing it? Like, this is what engineers do. We change things, right? And and also it just wasn't resonating with us like like on a moral compass, right? Like, this is not how we want to operate. And I'm I always say, you know, people know our guys, like they know our our staff because they've been there for so long. And I will always get like such great feedback for like, you know, these guys are the bachelor duty, and they treat me well. They this is it, like these are, you know, you want you want your team to be happy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. Um, are there any other ways you would say now um that you guys use your engineering background as you just continue to iterate uh for a SMAC?

SPEAKER_00

So I think you know, for any kind of project work, like we're we are trying to revamp something, so we still are doing that. That also is what excites us. Like that is because we are engineers, that is super exciting for us. So any project that comes on takes some type of like problem solving or thinking it through. And so that's I that that's where I would say the engineering comes into into play. And you know, before I was operating SMAC, um, I was working as a project manager in my engineering career. So it wasn't like I was hard core design engineer, so I feel like I actually do more engineering, more like engineering, or what people would understand engineering to be in the restaurant, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That's funny. Um, so for anyone who's listening who has like a big dream, but maybe thinks that they need like the permission or thinks that they need the perfect timing, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00

I would say there's never a perfect time. So there's always, and especially in like this day and age, we've got so many inputs and so many distractions and all this. So that you could always distract yourself. And and so with the per I would say the perfect timing needs to be shelled. It's really the belief. If you believe in something, and for us, what worked was that we didn't get overwhelmed. We just said, let's see what the next step is. Just look a few feet, just look a few feet ahead of you just to start. Look at the okay, what what's the next thing that would make sense to you? What's the next thing? So when you start breaking it down like that, and as you kind of go down that path, you are going to like generate more either more excitement or like, oh, why am I doing this? You know, so so it could go either way, but you could very easily overwhelm yourself if you're gonna try and think of it all at once. So it's just really like breaking it down into pieces and what the what's just what is the next one or two steps? Okay. And for us, it was like they came up with the idea like, oh, let's go talk to some business owners, you know, what what what how do they feel about writing a restaurant or how do they feel like uh and kind of like that that was our next step, just starting to chat with people. Let's see how they feel. Like, what are they happy they did this? Do they hate this? Was it hard to find a space? You know, those kinds of conversations. So that was kind of a our our next step. And we got a lot of bad data, and then like, oh, maybe we should just take this like crash course in how to open a restaurant, which happened again. You're in New York, you got like one of the best people teaching it, right? So just this two two-day course, like and so it was like next step, next step, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Again, more of that like engineering iterative, like, how can we be better? Like following a plan, too, honestly. Like having a plan, like you said, a project, this is the plan for it, and just doing it one step at a time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you always know that your timeline. I learned this very quickly is that coming from project management in engineering is very different than opening a restaurant. I had this thing project managed out, and it opened so not when we wanted to show, like it's open so much later. It's so open to we want to open quietly, it opened to lines down the block that we couldn't manage that was stressing it. That was not things that we had planned for worked in that sense. But it's good to at least have a plan because some of the some of those pieces will fall back, but a lot of them are just gonna be like you're you're uh trying to make it through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's true. That's funny.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, learning, learn a little picking on your feet very quickly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, having to pivot and be creative in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, already it's time for the rapid fire. So, first one up, sweet or savory?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, savory, 100%.

SPEAKER_01

Um, what is your go-to gluten-free, gut-friendly snack?

SPEAKER_00

So uh I have to answer with something dairy because I love cottage cheese. Fair, fair.

SPEAKER_01

Um, what is the mac and cheese combo that you secretly love?

SPEAKER_00

So I do a build your own. It's with sharp cheddar, mozzarella, gluten-free pasta, of course, lots of extra bread crumbs, which are gluten-free, of course. And how I like spicy jalapeno and dewy sausage, and then I throw broccoli in there to make myself feel better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's funny. That sounds really good. I'm about to try that next time I'm there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I this has been like my go-to for a while. Now I can't see the weed myself off of it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um, what would you say is your favorite mac and cheese on this Mac menu? Like of the options, what's your favorite mac and cheese?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, I would say the buffalo chicken. Yeah. With blue cheese. I love it. And you know what? And sometimes I add spinach to it also to make myself feel better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

But it actually changes, it alters the flavor, but it's delicious.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's funny. Um, what food instantly feels like home?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, so I am very allegiant to it's not food, it's a drink, but like my homemade chai every day, right? If I don't have that, like I feel like so um that is like a home thing, and also because now I'm gonna like lean into my mom cooking and her homemade and musking. So there's um a thing called a pranta. I don't know if you know what that is, so it's a flat bread. Um, and her and my favorite is her uh is Alu Pranta, so it was filled with potatoes, but yeah, and you know, and then when I couldn't eat gluten, she would make a gluten-free version for me. Oh wow! But it really is like that's like I can't not. Every time I go home, I have to have that, and then in the morning, like I have that warm cup of homage time. Like, yeah, that sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, that's amazing. Um, what is the most underrated ingredient in mac and cheese?

SPEAKER_00

I'm not gonna say it. Can I can I cheat?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, it's gonna be the HML, which is three ingredients because if you don't get that right, you screwed up your mac and cheese and it's literally butter or flour and then of course salt and pepper all it. But if you screw that up, which is again, you you just have to have patience to get it creamy and the right consistency, then get your protect your butch mouth. If you don't protect that, then what you throw into it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01

That's funny. Um, what would you say is the best gluten-free food that people don't realize is gluten-free?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, um, you know what's kind of funny? I feel like people like people think hummus have gluten in it. Have you ever heard that?

SPEAKER_01

I've never thought about it, but I could see I I could see that. I could see someone thinking that.

SPEAKER_00

And I always wonder if people like associate with hummus and pita. Oh, probably. Because I because I've I've there's been many times where I put hummus out and feel like, oh, is it gluten? Like, yeah, you're gonna get too free, isn't it? But it's just one of those funny things where I I I think it's a the association, like when people have hummus out, they think there's pita around it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's a that's a good answer. I'd never thought, but you're right I could see someone thinking it, but it's like it's not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um that's why I love hammock. I love uh hummus is like one of my favorite snacks.

SPEAKER_01

Do you ever eat it with the jalapeno? Do you ever eat it with the bread that your mom makes?

SPEAKER_00

No, I've never done that, but I bet you it would it would taste really good with that. If the like the the non-filled pranta would be really good with that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I try to have like I like my gluten-free crackers with homeless, like I really like the crunch master, and and then also cucumbers. But but I like the jalapeno. I'm like, I'm I have a mild addiction to jalapeno hummus. But I like spicy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I do feel like jalapenos make everything better. So yeah. Um, what is the grocery store aisle you linger in way too long?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, the cheese aisle. Right. Always, always the cheeses. I can taste test them all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You have a favorite cheese?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I do I don't have one that I'm a hundred percent about. I I do I love French cheeses, like I love chia be, I love uh passe, I I do love those, but also like I now I've kind of gotten very much into even like some like I love like a hard pecorino. Like I used to just kind of put that on top of pasta and stuff, but now I'm like, oh, you know, some of them are a little softer and they taste really good. Yeah, apparently there's a big recall in certain types of pecorinous before you buy it, just check it out. Like, oh no.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing. Um, so I always like to close with this. Um, so growing up, my dad always said about like food or people or life that things should be good to you, good for you, and good with you. When it comes to gluten-free, gut-friendly eating, what does this mean to you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, so I think that that it all it's like kind of it's a I love that by the way, that your dad said that. That's awesome. That's a great so I it kind of goes back to that old thing, you are what you eat, right? So also you feel what you eat and you excuse what you eat, kind of thing, right? So I think when you talk about like what your dad said, all those three things, um like when you're talking about gut-friendly and gluten-free and anything, like just being mindful of what you're putting in your body. And um you you know, if you listen to your body, you know, like you know if you didn't eat something you weren't supposed to eat, or you know if uh you did something, you ate this. Oh, now I can't go out, or now I can't do this, or now why am I feeling so tired? Why am I feeling so it's it's one of those things where it's yeah, just I think that whole sentence is just like being mindful of your choices.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Sarita, for talking with me today. This is really, really great. I'm very inspired by your story and your journey of like creating Smack with like a gluten-free menu and so many allergy-friendly menu options that allow everyone to enjoy mac and cheese. Um, for anyone who's craving mac and cheese, they should go to Smack anytime they're in New York City. Or if you're impatient like me, you can order a nationwide shipping of Smack from eatsmack.com or follow them on Instagram at EatSmack. Thank you so much for being with me.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much for being a lot of fun.