Ep. 4 - Do You Have Church Hurt?

Not all church hurt comes from scandals, abuse, or headline-worthy moments. Sometimes it’s subtle. Quiet. Hard to name.

In this episode of Faith Rehab, we move beyond our personal stories and start unpacking what church hurt actually looks like in real life.

We talk about:

•  The hidden symptoms of church hurt most people miss 
•  Why you might feel anxious, guarded, or disconnected in church 
•  How judgment, lack of grace, and “Christian answers” can push people away 
•  The difference between guilt and shame—and why that matters 
•  Why vulnerability feels safer outside the church sometimes 
•  The role of therapy, safe people, and real conversations in healing 

This one gets real. From divorce and affairs to small group struggles and trust issues, we dive into the messy middle of faith and pain.

If you’ve ever felt uncomfortable, unseen, or judged in church… this episode might help you finally put words to it.

Faith Rehab is a podcast about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

We create a safe space for honest conversations about spiritual disappointment, doubt, and the process of finding hope again—without pretending or having all the answers.

Co-hosts: Steve McNitt, Heidi Brandt & CJ Mateo
 Produced by: CJ Mateo

Contact us at Faithrehabpodcast@gmail.com
— we’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Hey, today on Faith Rehab, we're gonna talk about the symptoms of church hurt and how common it is. And it seems like it's pretty common.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Yeah, and we're gonna figure out why Heidi keeps calling Steve Dubs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

And why there's a rumor going around that I'm gay and I'm not mad about it.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Okay, oh, right, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Welcome to Faith Rehab. This is real talk about church hurt healing and rebuilding faith. Uh, the last three shows were kind of our origin stories, how we got here. And this week we're gonna be talking about just some of the different ways that people experience church hurt. So I'm Heidi, and uh my middle name is Joy, Heidi Joy. I grew up, and everyone would always say Heidi Joy should have been a boy. I don't know why or what that was about. Oh my goodness. Wow, that's me, Heidi Joy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

You know how funny that is? I had a different fun fact. By the way, my name is CJ AKA B M I to I. I was gonna say something else, but because you said that, if I was a girl, I was supposed to be something joy. Seriously, yeah, because they thought I was gonna be a girl.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

CJ.

unknown 1:20

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_04 1:22

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

That's insane.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

That is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

That's so Christian.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

And I'm um, and I'm Steve, and I'm gonna say some fun facts that have nothing to do with my middle name. Okay, which um is fine. But I am a licensed clinical therapist. I've been a therapist for 30 years, but I'm not your therapist. So you can ignore my advice all you want. Yes. Also, fun fact, I have been, among other things, a professional magician. Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

What you got paid to do magic?

SPEAKER_03 1:54

I got paid, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Oh, yeah, that's a true story. Were you good? Isn't that fun? Yeah, that's a good question. Oh, yeah, I was good. Okay. I was good. I performed at the Magic Castle. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, it's a very elite magic place, but is it in full, full, full Harry Potter over here?

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Yeah, in full disclosure, there's a room downstairs that's the um spontaneous room. Anyone could perform, but I wanted to be able to say I performed at the Magic Castle, so I did a uh court trick for some people. Awesome. Isn't that fun?

SPEAKER_04 2:27

Do you get a certificate or something when you do that?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Like no, you have to be a member, then you get like a certificate and you get like a little special pin. You know what the pin is? An owl food. I don't know what that means, but anyway, how how's things going, man? How's everything going for everybody? You guys good? I'm good, yeah. Really good.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Good. Uh I did want to tell you, CJ, that um Heidi and I have talked a little bit. She's come up with a new nickname for what is it?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

I have. Well, because like, so Steve is was past tense, my uncle's best friend. My uncle passed away almost a year ago. And I was trying to think of like, okay, it's weird to like introduce him as my dead uncle's best friend, dead uncle's bestie, but I'm like, dead uncle's bestie, d-U-B, dub. Like, I'm just gonna start calling him Dub, Dubby, Dubbers, Dubba, what's up? Big dub.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Dubbers.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

So I have a friend named Dub. I'm like, that is so weird. I have a friend named Dub. I've known him for like 25 years or something like that. And I asked him years ago, like, what kind of name is Dub? He goes, Oh, no, no, it's short for my middle name, which starts with a W. We all have W names. But what happened was a few years ago, I get a call from his wife, like in a straight out panic. She's like, Steve, oh my god, Dub's had a heart attack. They rushed him to the hospital. Could you come down and pray for us?

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

I get I get the voicemail. I'm like, oh, I gotta go. So I go to this local hospital, I go to the ER, and I go down there and I'm like, hey, do you have I'll just say his last name is Schnitzel. Do you have uh Dub Schnitzel? They're like, no. Oh, no, no, no. It starts, it's a W name. Do you have Walter?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

You don't know his name. No, it's Dub, it's short for something. Something complicated, I bet.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

I'm like, uh, is it Walter? No. Uh Winnemucca. No. Wally, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I come back to the ER and I'm like, you gotta let me in. I'm clergy. And they're going, tough. Like, they've got me nothing. Yeah. And so finally, we've spent a lot of time in the hospital. We know the nurses know everything. If you're a nurse, God bless you. If you if you know a nurse, God bless them too. Um, I talk. There's this nurse coming back from lunch, and I say, Hey, dude, and I tell him the whole story. Can you just let me in? He goes, sure. He swipe cards me in. Jeez, shows me what room number it is. I go in there. I'm like, man, I've been here for like an hour trying to, but your name is Dub. That's the only name I know is dub. But I know it starts for a W. What's your real name? You know what he says? Paul. Paul is your name? Like, that's not a W name. It's not even why would you shorten Paul to dub? Like you went from four letters to three. And I'm just going, it was just unbelievable. So when Heidi says, I want to call you dub, I'm like, yeah, I don't know about that. That's uh wild and wacky. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Welcome, Dub. That's funny. That is funny, big dub. What are we talking about today, man?

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Hey, uh sorry. Um, yeah, we should do some content. Want to? I know uh people are listening for it.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Add it up.

unknown 5:47

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

So here's the thing. The last few episodes, we've done kind of our origin stories. If you have haven't tuned in, go back, you get to hear Heidi's story in episode uh one, CJ's story in episode three, I think two, two, and mine in episode three.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Man, that's you're struggling there, man.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

I mean, because I don't think we recorded them in that order. I think we changed the last one or something. I don't know. I didn't go to rehearsal today. Sorry. Um, and so today what we wanted to do was talk a little bit about just in general, what is church hurt? Talk about how people experience sort of stumblings in their faith. What what hurts have people gotten along the way, and and maybe some symptoms or what kinds of things kind of cause it. So this is gonna be a little bit more general, but we're gonna try to make it full of stories that people we know or that have happened to us, and and so on and so forth. And I want to start by just saying this we know that lots of people that are on a faith journey have been hurt in one way or another. And we call it church hurt because that's kind of a a just a generic term for it, but we know some of it has happened in church, some of it has happened in a you know, non-denominational youth group, or as Heidi would say, non-denominational youth group. Um you betcha. That some some have hurt just you know, Christian friends that you wanted to count on. And so it's not just pastors like hurting, you know, parishioners or something like that. It's it comes from small groups, it can come from I feel like anywhere. It does not, I will say, come from everywhere. You know, I have lots of really great friends and lots of really great relationships who have not hurt me any more than a normal friendship, you know. But that it can be that what we're calling church hurt can come in a lot of different kinds of ways.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

I have uh do you guys know what the onion is? Do you have the onion in California or is that like a Midwestern thing? It's like a publication.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah, but it's like a fake news. It's like satire.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, Heidi, we have onions here.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Do you have onions in California? So my friend sent me.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

And avocados, which you don't have.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

My friend sent me an article from The Onion, and it's got a church on it, and it says, Local church opens doors to any single mothers in need of judgment. What? Because it's so real. Like when you're a single mom, it's yesterday I went and got a tattoo, and I was talking to my tattoo artist who also went through a divorce, and he was saying, I walk back into the church, Heidi, and I feel like I have the plague. It's like people don't know how to talk to you when you've been divorced in the church. You know, sure, I can be there when your mom dies of cancer and sit with you in the waiting room and pray for your wife. But yeah, the minute you get divorced, it's like Scarlet Letter, we're all gonna talk about you, you're under a cloud of suspicion. But that was one of the things, Steve, that was in the article that you shared with us, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Yeah. If you're new to that term of church hurt, there may be things that you're experiencing that lots of people do. And, you know, having been in the mental health field for so long and having been in the pastoral and in ministry for so long, I realize that sometimes things happen so often we give it a name. And so things have happened so often, they've given it a name, church hurt. Um, but I wanted to kind of go through some symptoms that are common to people, and maybe this is you. Um, that if you're no longer feeling comfortable, like the tattoo artist going to a church service, it may be that something has gone askew, and now you just aren't comfortable there. If you believe your church is weak in grace and forgiveness, like I like the people, but boy, they're not giving nearly enough grace. And either to me or to that single mom, you know, that the onion's talking about, or the person with the tattoo, or you know, fill in the blank. If you're just feeling like they don't have enough grace, some people feel anxiety when they go into church, like that, which is normal. Like I've been to a lot of churches, but the first time I go, I feel a little anxiety because I don't know what they're gonna do. There's some weird stuff that can happen in church, and also, you know, when my wife and I, when we used to visit a lot of smaller churches, like on vacation, you know, sometimes they're like, You're new, stand up, introduce yourself. I don't want to do that. I'm on vacation, bro.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

I'm taking a break from life. I'm just here. Do you guys know? Do you guys know who Barbara Brown Taylor is? No, she's an author who was an Episcopalian minister who left ministry and she's written a few really great books. And she left ministry and became a college professor. And when she taught religion class, one of the prerequisites for joining her class was attending any kind of religious service, a part of any group that was different from your own, just to remember what it's like to be a stranger. Yeah. To not know, do we kneel, do we stand, do we close our eyes, do we open our eyes, do we hold hands? Do we, you know, like and I thought what a great exercise that we so when you said that, Steve, it made me think of like you go to this small church, they want to name the guests, and yeah, it's like that uncomfortable, I call it like um you get dork bumps where you're just like, oh my gosh, this is dork bumps.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Dork bumps, yeah. Yeah, I went to a uh service one time. It was a very uh Pentecostal, I've been to a lot of Pentecostal churches. Uh this is not a knock on them. It was that one particular church where and it was the first time I had ever gone. And there were a lot of people, you know, there was a worship song, everybody sang, and then the guy kept playing, but everybody started speaking in tongues and around me, and I didn't really know what was happening, and I kept trying to listen harder and harder and harder to and and then because I thought maybe they all knew the song and I didn't, but they were singing it differently, like and I so I really thought, like, I they why don't they put the words up? Like, I'm trying to sing along here, and so you know it ended up being a great church, and one of my really good friends went there for a long time. But sometimes you feel that's kind of a normal anxiety, that's a normal sort of experience. Yeah, but if it's a church that you're used to and you start feeling anxiety, like I don't know if I can go, I don't know, you know, how I'm being judged, I don't know any of that stuff. Yeah, I think also if you've been hurt by leaders and then you just sort of are learning to distrust leaders. Like I can't really trust uh ministry people because um the way you know so and so lied to me. And yeah, there's this great math term, it's maybe the only math term I know, it's called extrapolate, you know? Like if you go two, four, six, eight, the next one you would think would be ten because you extrapolate, right? But sometimes we if we get hurt by somebody, we extrapolate that to mean oh, all those other people are gonna hurt me too. We make it sort of pervasive, like it's now everybody's gonna hurt me.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah, I think a good test for that too is if you're walking through church and you're changing your route to avoid certain things.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

People, groups, that pastor, that you know, anyone.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Um, maybe that's the same thing you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah, maybe. Like I see Steve at my church.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

CJ sees me at church and he's like runs away. Why is he going away, bro?

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Well, I'm I'm a lip kisser, okay? Like I grew up in a family where you always kiss goodbye, and I like there's a photo from my wedding that I had to pull from the album because it looks like I'm like romantically kissing my dad. And really, it's just they captured the shot right when I was kissing his mouth. Yeah, and some of the older guys at our church, I think, kind of learned like, oh you don't kiss me on the lips. The ones I avoided. I'm like, I'm dive into to avoid some of those. Like, I could have set up a booth and done a fundraiser and just raised all the money for the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

That building fund, but it'd have been three stories by now. Also, here's another one. If you have feelings of anger, shame, or sadness when thinking about a church that you used to attend or a pastor you used to know, or how things used to be, yeah, you know, those might be symptoms of church hurt and and and anything, you know. I I just so strongly believe this, that there's a difference between guilt and shame. If you do something wrong and you feel bad about it, that's guilt that is earned. You know, Brene Brown probably has the best definition that, you know, guilt is I made a mistake, and shame is I am a mistake. And I think that, you know, anytime we are feeling bad or so bad that like God must hate us now, that's not coming from God. It's not coming from I mean it may come from your preconceptions, but but if you're feeling any of those things, uh to the point where it's affecting your church, not even attendance, but your journey. Like I I'm not going to church, so then I'm not reading my Bible, so then I'm not praying, so then I'm not, you know, where or if you're of a different faith journey that I'm not going to temple or I'm not going to the prayers or I'm not going to the mosque or whatever it is, if those things are hurting you in a way that that thing is now affecting my inner core and my practices, then there's there's something's wrong.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

There's a disconnect. And I think you're talking about it, you know, in a very like casual and polite way. But the reality is people have feelings about this stuff. I have feelings about the ways I've been treated, anger, disappointment, frustration. And I think that the danger is whether or not you stay a part of the church or you leave the church, I can be just as guilty as having that, like that them, those people, that kind of reaction instead of like you said earlier, Steve, it's not everybody who's a part of the church, right? It's just there are some people, and sometimes that avoidance is like they're talking about me, and I know they're talking about me. And I think that sometimes we talk about it in nice, neat, packaged ways. But the reality is it's really messy. It's really messy and heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

And I think the easier it is to access those feelings, the more you're feeling them, and the more we need to work on them.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

You know what I mean? If it if it's such a thin veneer that I can get there like at the drop of any hat, then then that's something to to work on. And you know, I'm a therapist, so I'm I'm prejudiced that I think that a good therapist can help you with some of that stuff, as well as a good friend. You know, long before there were therapists, there were friends and family. And at the risk of wearing them out, get a therapist. But I think that, you know, the smaller that veneer is to get to those feelings, boy, take that as a sign that it's maybe time to work on some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I also like how um you you define those symptoms because sometimes you think a church hurt started from something huge, something scandalous or something very material. Like, but when you were saying those things, I was thinking there was a big part of my life where I wasn't starting a small group or leading one. And I'm thinking, why like why did I have such a long period of time where I like I wanted to stay away from that? And when you're thinking back, it could be something as subtle as that, where like I didn't want to do this for so long because now I'm thinking about what happened at my old small group or what happened with the leaders not supporting me. And it could be a church hurt thing that you're kind of unburying and and and you know, working through.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

I have an example of of how things can get extrapolated that this is I don't know if it's gonna sound weird or not, but when I was younger, I was in college and I had a friend who was a few years older, and he was a teacher, very respected guy in the church and in the school district, very well known, very respected. And we decided, hey, we should meet regularly, and we called ourselves accountability partners. Like, let's let's talk about real things and let's you know just hold me accountable on these these things. And oh great, and then I'll hold you accountable on these things. And we met probably for a couple of years, and then our life circumstances changed and and nothing, we just kind of stopped doing it. Not long after that, maybe six months or a year, two years after that, I found out that the whole time we were meeting, he was having affairs, like not an affair, of a few affairs, and one of them with a woman up the street from me. And did he ever talk to me about that? No, here I am burying my soul and trusting him and hoping that he was gonna hold that trust, and that I was getting to hold the trust for him, and the whole time he was lying, and I was so hurt by that. Now, I wasn't the one having the affair, he should be hurt by that, right? His wife should be hurt by that. Like that was the whole deal, right? So then you have a choice. Am I gonna blame him? And you know, I use every example as Jimmy. Am I gonna blame Jimmy or am I gonna go, people suck, and I'm not gonna trust anybody? And you know what? Church people suck the word, like I'm never gonna trust them. I don't want to be close to anybody, and so you have to kind of decide how you're gonna deal with that. In my case, I was like, that punk, and I was mad, and I um actually wrote him a letter. This is funny. I wrote him a letter and told him my feelings, and now you're gonna read it.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Go ahead and read that letter, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Your diary to Jimmy, and he was like, you know what? Thanks for bringing that up. It was such a painful part, and I was putting it behind me, and I'm like, great job of taking responsibility, bro. Um but it was one of those things where sometimes when we get hurt, then we blame all Christians, all churches, all pastors, all small groups, all whatever. Boy, there's so many great people that I know who are having a faith journey, whether they're in church or my church or whatever, that I just love and I love that I get to be inspired by their walk.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Okay, I I'm curious though, because I guess my question would be what made him feel unsafe to not share the real struggle that he was in?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Have you met me? Judgmental Steve.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

You strike me as safe, but like I because I think that that's that is the um, I don't know what the word would be, but when you're part of a church and you're meeting with your accountability partner, and I I don't like that word because it just, I don't know why, it literally makes me cringe because I think because I think back to college, and I'm not it's not against like you and the conversations that you had with him, but when I was in college, it was like, we're gonna find an accountability partner. I went to a Bible school, and it just became this like emotional conversation around let's name all the things that we've done wrong and how are we gonna be accountable? But some people are in such intense pain that they're acting out in addiction, in affairs, and to sit down with someone that they have a perception of like they wow, Steve's really got it together. I have so much shame in my life. Yeah, how do I say that? Because I've been him. I have sat with people who felt safe with me when I was living a life completely separate from the one that they saw. And it's because I just hadn't worked through my shame enough to feel safe. With anybody, much less myself.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Yeah. Well, that's a good way to put it because I think maybe it was shame driven. I don't know. I'm not inside his brain, but also I know that having raised children, that when they're trying to get away with stuff, they're just trying to get away with stuff. Like the shame might be when they get caught. They're not having it right until they get caught. You know, they're they're just like, did is that a chocolate bar? No. It looks like a chocolate bar. No. You know what I mean? That they're just trying to get away with it. So I don't know if it was shame based for him or if it was um that he was trying to get away with it. But also, you bring up a great point that if I'm gonna try to be available to people, the the more real I am, I would hope the more safe that I would feel to other people. But that also might be casting a shadow over the you know, my real is not their real, and they don't want to show vulnerability or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Because then what does that mean? I mean, I admit this, and then what? Right, you know, then you burden I'm gonna burden Steve with this information, and I'm not even ready to leave my marriage yet.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Like I I would say I I totally agree. If you have an accountability partner and one person is not going through something so big, like an affair, and you're expected to just tell it all, I see how there's a a wall there that's hard to break. And I see that in adult, adult small groups more often, where you're trying to share something and everyone says the Christian answer and no one says anything of value really. They're just saying the thing that will keep their ego intact or something. And that could be a sense of like a part of church hurt where you can't be vulnerable, especially with your brothers and sisters in Christ. And why, why is that? Like, why does it um become such a big thing? Now, uh, we could talk about this at another podcast, but I had my my um my years in recovery and 12-step programs and stuff like that. And when you're in those circles, it's so much easier to be vulnerable. And a lot of them are not Christian, they're just trying to get through the next day of addiction, of drugs, of porn, or whatever, and they say it all.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

And I actually think to your point, Steve, it's because those kinds of issues need therapists, and a lot of people a part of the church are not even qualified to have these hard conversations that are so nuanced and layered. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Yeah, I so let me speak to having been a pastor and a therapist, and I was a therapist first, but one of the things that I know when I went to seminary, I took um two counseling classes, and then I got a master's degree and did, you know, thousands of hours of practice and then got licensed. Most pastors have really great hearts and really want to help. And I think lots of people in the church have great hearts and really want to help. And I think that they're most pastors are not fully trained to do for themselves, but especially for other people, what a therapist can do because of the nuances and because of the how do I get you from A to B to C, you know, is the work that a therapist learns and practices and gets consultation and all of that kind of stuff. And so if you're trying to save a few bucks and go see your pastor instead of a therapist, spend the bucks. Like go get a therapist. Your pastor may or may not be qualified, may or may not be good, may or may not be, you know, able to help you, even though they're gonna want to. And Lord knows they're gonna want so badly to do it. And since we're talking about therapists, this is probably gonna get me shunned from every denomination. But here's the way I would tell people, because people will ask me, do you know any Christian therapists? And I would say, Yes, I do. But if you have a choice between Christian and competent, take competent.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

If you get one that's both, great. Jackpot. But it doesn't have to be a Christian if it's someone who's competent, because they will honor your your faith journey, they will honor the strengths that you find from your faith and your church and whatever else is part of your journey. But if you have a choice between Christian and competent, take competent.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

And if you can find both, there's not that many, but if you can find both, that's jackpot.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

I think too like CJ, what's step one in recovery?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Because I've done recovery. So I'm when you say, like, what is step one in recovery in the 12-step program? And the reason I'm asking is because I think that the reason that 12-step programs are so effective and church looks a little bit different, is because most people, I shouldn't say most people, there are some people in the church who are unwilling to even say step one out loud, which is we admit we're powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable. It's admitting.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

It could be alcohol, it could, it could be anything.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

So totally fill in the blank. I'm having an affair and my life has become unmanageable. Whatever the thing is, if someone is not willing to admit the pain that they're in and the struggle that they're in, then it you can't help them, you know, like because they're they're just in the throes of it. And that freedom and being being able to sit with a group of people and say, My name is Heidi, and I'm an alcoholic, it frees other people up to do the same.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

When people go to a 12-step meeting, and I've been to many, my brother, uh, my father, lots of people that I know, or my stepfather, have dealt with addictions. Plus, being in the field, I've gone just to write papers and to explore and understand. There's churches that do celebrate recovery based on, you know, the steps. And one of the things that people say is, you know, I'm I'm Steve and I'm an alcoholic. And then what does everybody else say? Hi, Steve. Steve. Very welcoming. And so sometimes people say, Why couldn't churches be more like an AA meeting? And I've heard the response is it could be if Christians acted more like alcoholics.

unknown 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

No, I don't think that means the drinking or the the, you know, ruining your life, but it could mean the whatever you say, we're gonna accept and we're gonna embrace with grace.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

And I think, you know, CJ, when you're talking about the small group or my friend, or whatever we're talking about, because you guys bring up a great point that I really haven't thought about is what would I have done if he had said that? Would I have said, you're an idiot, go go, you know, redo your vow, something. I don't know what I would have done. But if I would have had the grace enough to be like, oh man, let's let's walk through this. I don't know. I mean, that's that's maybe exactly why he never said anything.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

And that to me, that is like full stop, is that in my experience, it's really hard for people, part of the church or not a part of the church, to walk through something painful with another person without being able to fix it or put a bow on it or package it or guilt it or whatever it is, like to be able to go, okay, I'm here to listen. We're not here to figure it out or fix it. Like, what has that experience been like? What is going on for you that this is where you are today? I want to know your story. Tell me your story. And I want you to know that you are a beloved child of God. Period. Like, to me, that's the grace piece. Cause when we talk about grace and forgiveness, those words are really nice words. But what does that look like in action? Like, oh my gosh, that has had to have been so hard for you to be hiding such a big thing from your family and your wife and from your friends, and to go to church and worship and feel that that that duplicit like feeling. And this is coming from my own personal experience. This is my story. I have been that man sitting across from friends that I'm in Bible study with going, if you knew the shit that I was in, yeah, you wouldn't even know where to put me, and I wouldn't even know where to begin.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

And you know what? I think you bring up a good point, and this kind of goes full circle to the counseling thing, is that if you had been real with your pastor, I mean, that was your husband. So, right? Yeah, that's that wasn't the place to go. If you had been real with a friend, maybe they could handle it, maybe not. I think that people, and and this is, you know, having been in the mental health field a long time, I think people don't ask questions because they don't know what to do with the answers.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

That if um, you know, if you had said that to somebody and they wouldn't know what to do with the answers, I there's a guy I know right now who I don't care what you ask him, there's a Bible verse coming out. Right. And he knows he's like the rain man of the Bible. He knows all, he knows every Bible verse, but no matter what you say to him, there's a Bible verse coming out. And so is the Bible good for healing and health? Absolutely. But is that the answer? When what really the is the answer is maybe I need a hug. Maybe I need somebody to rub my back and listen to my story. Maybe I need somebody to say, I don't know that I'm gonna be the one to help you, but I'm gonna help. Let me help you find the one to help you.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yes. Yeah, yes. And I like yeah, the Bible could definitely help, but I think um the Bible working through people to work through that person or to you. You know, their testimony, their things that are going through could help.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Yeah, can I use one of my favorite examples? Romans uh chapter 12, I think verse two says that you know, you should be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That is a great verse. Unless someone can help you figure out how to renew your mind, you're left with, yeah, I should do that. It's almost like, you know, if you've ever met somebody who's really good at like mechanical things, and they say, Yeah, just cut a 45 degree angle, then put it on your lathe and run it with a you know, a one-inch blade, and and it'll be great. I don't know how to do any of those things you just mentioned, right? Right, you know, sometimes like that's the stuff from our kids where they'll go, Dad, all you gotta do is, and then it's another foreign language they're speaking. And so if if I love the be transformed by the renewing of your mind, and because I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, I have so many ways to help people renew their mind. But unless people are trained to do that, you're you're left almost maybe with more guilt, like, yeah, I gotta do that, I gotta do that, I gotta do that. Okay, but how and and and really thank you for that verse, but I still need how and um and really there's so much great stuff in the Bible, but you gotta get it some how. Heidi, do you have something in mind you can help guide us into the I do, I I do.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

I and I wanna like I'm ready to go vulnerable here, and I actually think it'll end really nicely with my story of being a lesbian.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

So we just yes, and Heidi, thank you for being willing to go vulnerable. And yeah, I think this has been a really rich discussion, and I appreciate you guys have really helped me a lot, and and actually you're sort of offloading even some residual anger I didn't realize I had. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

It's so funny. I've got it too. When you were like, there might be a real thin veil between your church hurt, like unprocessed, and like I am pretty angry right now.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

But there's um maybe we we need a therapist. Let's get a therapist on here next time.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Seriously, do you know any good therapists that are competent?

SPEAKER_03 34:32

If you need, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

I I guess you know, part of being able to have this conversation is real talk, right? That's what we say. It's real talk about church hurt. And I've said this in previous podcasts. I know that sometimes I've been the one contributing to that church hurt. And when you are so ensconced in your own emotional pain and you can't be vulnerable. And in my case, I was married to the pastor, and to his credit, he has done a lot of work in his own life, as have I. And but at that time, when I told my pastor and my husband that I was having an affair, we were still very image focused and presentational. And so it was like, okay, well, here's the prescription for that. We're gonna go to the six weeks of therapy that our church provides us with, and we're gonna sweep this under the rug and we're never gonna talk about it again. And that hurt me even more because now we're not dealing with it. We're just prescribing, like, you know, uh Christianese and Christian therapy to it, but we're not gonna talk about it and as if it erases the reality or where it came from or any of those things. But what we say is where were you hurt? What helped, and where are you headed? Right. That's kind of our North Star, where we always come back to on this podcast. And I think what helped was the people who did like you said, Steve. They gave me the time. They said to me, Maybe I can't be the one to help you with this, but let me find someone who can. I think people in recovery for addiction, people who are having affairs, that takes a long time and a lot of patience and grace and support to work through those things.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

And it's it's not neat and tidy. It's not like let's check the boxes of six weeks of therapy and we figured this out. It's like we are messy human beings trying to work towards something that just sometimes feels impossible. And when you hear other people's stories of like, well, I I had a woman stop me at Walmart and she goes, I cheated on my husband and we worked through it, you know, and it's like, good for you. That's not my story because I wasn't there yet, you know. And so sometimes people with great intentions who are really sincerely trying to help stop the bleeding and hold you and pray for you and be there for you. It it doesn't help if you're if you're not ready, you've got to have those patient, safe people in your life that are just gonna root for you through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Did you know who the safe people were and how they were helping you?

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Yeah, my uncle, Rich, who we lost last year, he was the safest person for me. Yeah. And he just never told me what to do. He just repeatedly told me about God's unconditional love for me. And whatever path you choose, Heidi, I'm here to support you. And wherever you think you need to be, we're gonna love you through it. And just pointing me back to the Bible, and not even the Bible, because no how much he believed in the Bible, but just pointing me back to Christ and to God's love. And that did. It was like that was the salve that took a long, long, long time to heal from.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

And now you know he why I wanted to be his bestie.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

The dub.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

I was gonna say for the listener who is now identifying the church hurt, but doesn't have a safe person. Fortunately, I feel like we all have a safe person, even to each other. Steve is my safe person. What if you don't have one?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Most everybody has somebody who's a little safe. And we only know if they're more safe by giving them a little bit more. I worry about the people who go and like tell me everything about them in the first 15 minutes because I'm like red flag. You need to like keep stepping. Um but if I've given you, you know, 10% and I need to see what are you gonna do when I give you 12? Are you gonna be trustworthy with 15%? Yeah and so on.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Um but can I I I I hate to say that I'm wrapping a bow on it, but one of my favorite stories, and this is not for people who necessarily are hurting, it's for people who are around folks that are hurting. But because if you know the story of Job, if you don't, please go read the story of Job. It's really great, although it's really tragic, especially in the first like two chapters, where he loses everything, he loses all of his riches, he loses his children, he loses his barns and his riches and everything that he has. The only thing that's left is his wife, and his wife, after they lose everything in a really dramatically small amount of time, his wife says to him, Why don't you curse God and die? So, of all the supports he could have had, that's the one he was left with. But he had two friends, and the two friends came to him and sat with him, and they sat in silence for an entire week. Friends, I'm telling you that if you know somebody who's struggling, you may need to go and sit in silence. And they sat for an entire week. Listen, I couldn't do seven minutes, they did seven days, and and at the end of that time, because this is the second part, at the end of that time, they started to give him advice, and he says, in one of the versions of the Bible, he says, Why did you abandon the ministry of silence? And I love that as someone who's a therapist, to go sometimes the most helpful, amazing, healing thing I can do is shut up and show up. And and I know we all know people that have church hurt as well as other hurt, you know. The we've talked about affairs, we talked about addictions, we talked about other kinds of stuff. That sometimes the best thing we can do, oftentimes, maybe every time, the best thing we can do is show up and shut up. And maybe that means you bring a plate of brownies, maybe that means you just say, Let's have coffee and talk about something else. Let me, you know, sometimes it's just so helpful. And so I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Let me take your kids so that you can go for a walk. Let me, you know, like there's just so many practical things that we can do that don't require any kind of money or expertise, knowledge. Yeah, just like I love that. The ministry of presence is a powerful thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

So absolutely, that's really good. Well, listen, this has been a great discussion, and I feel like uh we should wrap it up, but we just want to remind you of two things. One is that some of these symptoms are so common and we get hurt from lots of different ways. The next episode, we're gonna really talk about things, you know. As Heidi said earlier, we talk about what hurt, what has helped, and where are you headed. And the next um episode, we're gonna talk a lot about kind of what's helped people. Like if you're feeling like, yeah, I got that, but now what? Well, spoiler alert, turn in, tune in next week or next session here on Faith Rehab.

SPEAKER_04 42:29

Okay, all right. I'll just I can just jump right in.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Nice bracelet, Heidi.

SPEAKER_04 42:33

Thank you. Heidi Joy should have been a boy. I'm wearing my pride bracelet, and so my my ex-husband and I, we've been separated, divorced. We moved in together for a year to try to work on things. We got completely divorced. It's been like five years, it's been a long journey. And he's a pastor again at a newer church, new to him. It's not the one that we were a part of. So I have a question before I tell this story. I need to know, and I, you know, CJ, how old are you? Am I allowed to ask you that question?

SPEAKER_00 43:03

I am twenty-eight.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Oh, you're you're older than I thought. Yay. Okay, so you're 38, Steve. You're almost six, seven.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Six seven. Every episode. We have you know what? His kid, we went to Home Depot the other day, and his kids said, Steve, how old are you? And I said, I'm 66, and they're like, Six seven.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

See, they know it's coming. Yeah, so this is like to me, this is a generational question. Like, CJ, if I were to ask you, like, if your wife is going out with her friends that are women, okay. How would she say, like, I'm going out with my women friends?

SPEAKER_00 43:39

or She would say, I'm going out with my friends, or just name them going out with Cindy, Lynn, Eileen. Like by name. By name, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

Okay, Steve, what would Susie say if she's like going out with women friends?

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Susie actually is six seven. Um she uh she would say, Oh, I'm going out with some girlfriends.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

Okay, that's what I say. I say girlfriends. I'm 44 for the record, but I've always said girlfriends. So my ex-husband and I we went an hour away with my girlfriend, who's a friend that's a girl and her boyfriend. And we were at a bar, a brewery. And when I got up to go to the bathroom wearing my pride bracelet, we ran. I ran into this couple. And the guy goes, I'm sorry, can I stop and ask you a question? And I'm like, sure. And he goes, That guy that you're with. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. We went an hour away to avoid these kinds of people. And here we are, an hour away from home, and someone's recognizing my ex-husband. And he pulls out his phone and it's a picture of my ex. And he goes, Is he the pastor of this church? And I go, he is. And he goes, Well, who are you? And I go, I'm his ex-wife, which I don't even know why to share that much information with him, but I did. And I go, I'm just here with my girlfriend. And he's like, Oh, that was he, that's such a great church. You need to come to that church and you need to bring your girlfriend. I walked away thinking there's gonna be a rumor that gets started that I met Josh's ex-wife, and she was at a brewery with her girlfriend, and she started coming to our church.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

She left tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

But I'll tell you what, if he was that enthusiastic to invite me and my girlfriend to that church, that's the kind of church that I want to go to.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

That's the kind of church you want to bring a girlfriend to, Heidi.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Yeah, that is a good church right there. That's a good story. And meet us again in a couple weeks on Faith Rehab. And in the meantime, Heidi, be blessed. Bye, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Bye-bye. Okay, I'll wait.