Ep. 6 - Emma Lenz - Almost Welcome - Policies Over People

Emma Lenz is a dynamic communications professional — she knows better than most how organizations craft a message. So when the Christian youth organization she'd spent years believing in started getting called out for the gap between what they said and what they did, Emma couldn't look away.

Emma came to faith with no church background. What followed was years of real questions, a Christian college, working at a church, and eventually a staff role at a well known national youth organization she deeply believed in.

Then the stories started coming out — queer students who'd been welcomed in, until they wanted to lead.

In this episode, Emma shares what it cost her to say I can't put my name on this — and what it looks like to still hold onto faith after the institution lets you down.

Faith Rehab is a podcast about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

We create a safe space for honest conversations about spiritual disappointment, doubt, and the process of finding hope again—without pretending or having all the answers.

Co-hosts: Steve McNitt, Heidi Brandt & CJ Mateo
 Produced by: CJ Mateo

Contact us at Faithrehabpodcast@gmail.com
— we’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

Hi, welcome to Faith Rehab Podcast. In today's episode, we're going to interview a good friend of mine, Emma Lenz, and we're going to learn what she says that empathy does not need proximity.

Speaker 5 0:12

You're also going to learn how salsa dancing could be part of your faith journey.

Speaker 3 0:17

And you're going to learn why my dad is ready to have an intervention for me.

Speaker 5 0:22

Uh oh. Enjoy the show.

unknown 0:33

Okay.

Speaker 1 0:34

Hi, welcome to Faith Rehab. This podcast is real talk about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith. We exist just to bring comfort and community to those who have been hurt by the imperfections of the church. My name is Steve McNitt. I have been a therapist for over 30 years, although I'm not your therapist, so you get all this for free. Today it's not really about me. It's just something I learned because I was on vacation and I went through Kentucky, and there are more barrels of urban in Kentucky than there are people in Kentucky.

unknown 1:06

Wow.

Speaker 1 1:07

Interesting.

Speaker 5 1:08

Did you bring some home for us?

Speaker 1 1:11

Come on over. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3 1:14

My name is Heidi. I am TMI to High, which I love that new nickname. My mom even sent me a text that said she's enjoying the podcast, but sometimes she's a bit taken aback by my comments. And uh I think that's my fun fact for the day.

Speaker 5 1:30

Sounds good. Hey Heidi. Hey, yeah, my name is TJ. I am BMI too high. It's it's really too high. I've been eating a lot of crazy stuff right lately. Anyways, um, I have two kids. Three kids.

Speaker 3 1:43

Why do you always forget?

Speaker 5 1:45

I always say two.

Speaker 3 1:46

Every time. Every time.

Speaker 5 1:48

Well, I I do have three kids, and I like to say to one of them, and I won't say who it is, but I don't have a favorite kid, but that one isn't the one. Steven knows what's what I'm talking about. Poor guy. Poor girl. We don't know. I'm not gonna say yeah, maybe from time to time. But I am happy to be here.

Speaker 3 2:04

We're happy to have you.

Speaker 5 2:05

How are you guys doing? Great. Heidi, what's up with your with your volume? I see you don't have your regular setup.

Speaker 3 2:11

So bad. So yesterday I took my boys. My ex-husband is in Kenya for two weeks.

Speaker 5 2:17

Oh wow.

Speaker 3 2:18

Like out living his best life on safaris and helping needy people, whatever.

Speaker 5 2:23

And I've been running out of options, ways to kill time and also helping needy people or whatever.

Speaker 3 2:31

I know I did. I'm terrible. My mom will text me about that later. So I took my boys for the 40th anniversary of Ferris Feeler's Day Off at the theater.

Speaker 1 2:43

Oh nice.

Speaker 3 2:45

Don Coshane, we were the only people in the theater except for one other guy who was in the front row sitting alone, laughing at everything. And the tornado sirens went off. And so, like as a mom, I've learned one of my trauma responses is freeze. So I have to really check that. Like, do we just keep watching the movie, or do I need to go mama bear and like get us all in the bathroom?

Speaker 4 3:12

Got it.

Speaker 3 3:12

So we had major storms in Illinois, like 13 touchdowns of tornadoes and micro bursts. And it was pretty severe. So the my son's computer system, which is like being at the helm of NASA, uh, the motherboard, which I don't even know what that is. If you don't know what it is, like it's uh something happened to it during the storm. Lightning hit.

Speaker 1 3:38

There's a motherboard and a fatherboard.

Speaker 3 3:41

I am ready for fatherboard to get the hell home because I'm done with these children. I've spent so much money on groceries, you guys. You don't understand. I'm done.

Speaker 5 3:53

So we're having this audio today. It's fine. We can hear you.

Speaker 3 3:55

Oh, yeah. Send that whiskey my way.

Speaker 5 3:58

So what else is going on? You guys good? Everything going well? I'm good.

Speaker 1 4:01

I just got back from vacation. Heidi, tell us what's up.

Speaker 3 4:05

So I'm, you know, on this journey with my kids alone, and and my dad, he said, Heidi, I've been listening to your podcast, but I'm really concerned. I didn't know that you were a smoker. And I'm like, what? He goes, I've been listening to the podcast. I go, Dad, how well were you listening? I smoked handy cigarettes in my car, not actual ones. He was like, Oh, I mean, like he clutched his heart. Like, oh thank God. I thought that I was gonna have to talk to you. But I know you're you, and if that's who you are, dad.

Speaker 1 4:40

Wow, supportive. And do you smell like bubble gum every time you go to his house?

Speaker 3 4:45

Yeah, dude.

Speaker 5 4:46

You can smell it in the car. Okay, well, he seems very concerned.

Speaker 4 4:50

Yeah.

Speaker 5 4:51

That's good. Thanks, Dad, for listening. Hi, Heidi's Dad. I'm CJ. And you guys had a great uh time today because I know you guys interviewed our guest, our first ever guest on this podcast.

Speaker 3 5:04

So exciting. Yeah. She was awesome.

Speaker 5 5:07

I'm excited to hear it. So let's just jump to that.

unknown 5:18

Add it up.

Speaker 1 5:19

For all of you in Faith Rehab Land, I am thrilled to be introducing you today to my friend Emma Lenz. And Emma, yes, give it up. Let's hear a big cheer. There we go. That's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 5:35

Welcome.

Speaker 1 5:35

Emma and I are celebrating our 10-year friendiversary this year.

Speaker 3 5:40

That's right.

Speaker 1 5:40

We have been friends for 10 years. Now, what that says is we have some history and that you can seriously question her judgment. That's about all that means, but yeah. Emma is has been my friend for 10 years. On Emma's resume, the first words are dynamic communications professional. So if somebody sounds really smart today, that's Emma's voice. That when you'll know. Um, she has a bachelor's degree in graphic design and from Point Loma Nazarene University. She has been a volunteer English teacher in China. Can you believe that? She's teaching English in China.

Speaker 3 6:21

Wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 6:23

I know. She has been a um a volunteer at a national youth organization. She also was on staff for them. We're gonna hear a little bit about that. She was the uh wish intro coordinator for the our local make-a-wish organization, an organization near and dear to my heart. It's always been near and dear to my heart because my son got a make-a-wish. If you are anywhere near a make-a-wish organization, give, give generously, get involved. And um, when Emma joined that, like instantly I had to be a part of it. She's also been a communications director for uh a company, and she is currently the director of communications for the California Democratic Party, the largest Democratic Party in the nation. Emma Lenz, welcome to Faith Rehab.

Speaker 3 7:17

Thank you for being here, Emma. That's amazing. I'm so excited to dive in and get to know you better. Thanks for having me. What an intro. Thanks, Steve.

Speaker 1 7:24

You know what's great? It's because if I had said introduce yourself, you wouldn't have said none of that except we've been friends for a long time. And what do you want to know? Emma's a very modest person, one of the most intelligent, well-spoken, and thoughtful people that I know. And I've known her for 10 years. The only question is why does she continue to hang out with me? But we love her. And as many of you know, people like me, but they love my wife. And Emma and my wife, Susie, are buds as well. And it's just been a fun ride to know you for 10 years, Emma.

Speaker 2 7:57

Oh, thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Speaker 1 8:00

Here's what we do we usually ask people to sort of tell their story, and your story can start anywhere. Uh I'm sure we'll ask questions along the way, but I know because this is faith rehab, it's uh real talk about faith and about um the hurts that people have had from the imperfections of the church. Uh, we've talked last couple of episodes about how that can come from friends or family or organizations or pastors or whatever. Let's start with Emma Lenz, the little girl. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing.

Speaker 2 8:37

My upbringing, gosh, I had a great childhood. When I was little, I don't know. I I don't really my childhood was kind of it, nothing is ever no childhood's perfect, but it feels perfect in my memory. I born and raised in California. My parents are still married. I have a sister. Her and I didn't always get along. She drove me crazy, but now we're good friends.

Speaker 1 8:57

That sounds familiar to anybody.

Speaker 2 9:00

Are you the oldest or the youngest? I am the oldest. Same girl. Nice. We have so much in common already. There's oldest siblings, we get each other.

Speaker 3 9:10

Yes.

Speaker 2 9:11

Yeah. Um, yeah. My childhood, I don't know. There's not too much to say about it.

Speaker 1 9:15

Emma, tell us about your parents. Uh, were you raised in the church? What was your faith background kind of growing up?

Speaker 2 9:21

My parents are not religious. I was not raised in the church at all. I actually don't know if I ever stepped foot in a church as a kid. I think the first time I went to church was probably middle school because all of my best friends, we moved from the Bay Area to El Dorado Hills, and that's where I grew up. And all of my friends went to church. And so, really, it was a matter of FOMO. I'm like, well, if my friends are hanging out during the week somewhere, I'm gonna be there. I don't care if it's church, I'll go. I'll go anywhere with my friends. So that's kind of how I how I got introduced to to church and Christianity and faith.

Speaker 1 9:54

Take us through the journey. You went from there to a Christian college. Well, you Heidi is freaking out right now.

Speaker 3 10:01

Yeah, I've just I'm always so impressed by people who like first of all, I want to make the very probably not tasteful joke that she said she had a very happy upbringing and she wasn't a part of any religious group. Like, I think that's fantastic. But then I'm also thinking you join a church, like, did your parents think you joined a cult? Did you think you joined a cult? Like, I I'm always impressed by people who have no church background and then find a church and then just like take a deep dive into Bible school and you know, all the rest.

Speaker 2 10:36

Short answer, yes. My mom specifically was like, this is a cult. Um, and I think I think for a long time she was concerned, but eventually just shut her mouth. And my dad, he kind of his his story is one of its own. He's had an an interesting childhood and confusing family dynamics, but eventually his his parents actually die, his biological mom and biological dad ended up passing away within three weeks of each other. One suddenly and one was sick for a long time. And that actually also kind of coincided with when I started going to church. And so he was kind of looking for like, how can I how can I move through this? Like that, you know, that's a lot of trauma. So he actually ended up going to church kind of at the same time as me, not because of me. So he he went for a while there. Um, doesn't go anymore. But yeah, so my dad was a little more involved. He ended up, you know, leading youth group, uh, small groups at youth group and all that kind of stuff. My mom never got involved. She went to Catholic school and had no interest in stepping foot back into church, which I don't blame her.

Speaker 1 11:38

So just side note, there are a lot of churches that are weird and wacky and cult-ish. The church you were going to, was it kind of a mainstream church? Was it a cult? What are we talking about?

Speaker 2 11:50

Totally mainstream, non-denominational evangelical Christian church in like the suburbs. It's yeah, you picture like a I wouldn't say mega church, but a big church, you know, with kind of like the rock and roll production on the stage kind of vibes. That that's where I was at. Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:05

Now that you said rock and roll, I'm picturing you in the 80s with your hair all ratted out and like no, she not the 80s, Steve.

Speaker 3 12:13

That had to have been like the 90s and 2000s.

Speaker 1 12:16

Maybe, maybe. All right. Yeah, she's not that old. She's not that old.

Speaker 2 12:20

I wasn't I wasn't born until the 90s. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 12:23

Yeah. All right. So how did you get from there to like, let's go to a Christian college, let's go to a go to work at a church?

Speaker 2 12:30

You know, when I look back, it was a long road to go from, like you're saying, Heidi, it is kind of rare, I think, to go from like zero religious upbringing to like I'm going to a Christian school. And it was a long road. I started going to church and middle school with friends, and it like really the basics were confusing to me. I'm like, I don't understand what is Jesus and God one thing? Is it two things? Is it maybe also three? Because I'm hearing there's a third thing. And so it was years of that. Like, years of like my friends were born and raised understanding this, and I feel like the dumb one to have to ask questions about things that are like seemingly very common knowledge in the world of churchgoers.

Speaker 3 13:09

But also, I kind of love that for you. Yeah. Like I love the one that's just like curious. Yeah. That makes everybody else go, we just believe it. Right. Medium questions.

Speaker 2 13:20

Yes. And I was always that one with the questions. And like, and I think also because of the way I was raised, I was raised in a pretty progressive liberal household. And so there were a lot of values that I held that I found conflicts with in the church. And that you'll we'll talk more about that later in my story too. But I think that's why it probably took me, I'd say, at least, I don't know, maybe six to seven years before I was actually like, okay, I'm I'll I'll be all in. Um, it was a lot of like, can what I believe about the world and people be true and also Christianity. Um, so it was a lot of trying to reconcile those two things. So I'd say by the by the end of high school, I was pretty bought in.

Speaker 3 13:57

That's such a mature thing to understand as a senior in high school, like that you can hold both.

Speaker 2 14:04

Yeah.

Speaker 3 14:04

You know, like I think a lot of adults don't even know that. But for you at that age, says something about how you're wired that you realized, like, how does this translate into the real world? Sorry, keep going.

Speaker 2 14:16

No, no, that's yeah. I I think when I look back, I don't know that I even really would have had words for it, but my question is were your friends helpful?

Speaker 1 14:26

Were the church people helpful? You have these questions that are kind of swirling around you, or was it just kind of like suck it up, buttercup, you know, get on board?

Speaker 2 14:34

I will say I don't know that I found much help with my questions in high school and in the the church I was going to in the suburbs I was living in. I think where I really started to have these like real conversations where I could actually ask the questions I was really mortified to ask elsewhere, or like to ask the questions that I knew other people may be uncomfortable by um in college when I started uh I became a part of like a nationwide youth organization and met leaders through that who were very real and I never had any doubt that they were gonna think less of me by asking whatever question I had. So that's that's really when I started to dig into it. Yeah, in col I'd say early college.

Speaker 1 15:11

And was your college one of those that you have to go to chapel twice a week or something like that?

Speaker 2 15:16

Yeah, we had to go to chapel, I think three times a week. It was an experience, it was not my favorite.

Speaker 3 15:24

Were you on chapel probation? No, I was on chapel probation. What? That's a thing.

Speaker 2 15:31

Oh my gosh. I see, I wanted to be, but I was too scared. I didn't want to break the rules. I was too scared to break the rules.

Speaker 1 15:37

Emma's a little bit of a rule follower. Harry is not. Um so the the other thing, when you talked about leading the national uh youth group, I think you were leading in a particular slice of it that people might be interested in, or at least I thought was really great. Because when I met you, you had been coming from the part of it that is dealing with kids with special needs.

Speaker 2 16:02

Yeah. I started actually volunteering with that in high school because this woman, the pastor's daughter at the first church I went to led that that branch of the organization in my hometown. So I got introduced to it there and then in college got to step up and actually start like a new area for it where my college was. And so um it was, yeah, young people and young adults with developmental or intellectual disabilities, uh, like a youth group specifically for them. But also not just separate, but also integrating that group into the larger group of the organization. So yeah, that's that's really where I started getting really involved with that organization was that sector about your right, Steve.

Speaker 1 16:40

I I think that's cool because that when I met you, you had been doing that and then worked with me. And it seemed like a smooth transition to be working with people with special needs and me.

Speaker 3 16:54

We'll edit that.

Speaker 1 16:55

Just if you could see it, Emma and Heidi are both shaking their heads right now. I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 17:00

Yeah, no, no comment.

Speaker 1 17:02

Anyway, and so then you're you graduated from college, you got a degree in in uh design, and what'd you do next?

Speaker 2 17:12

Uh, then I went back to my hometown and was the graphic designer at that church that I had gone to in high school um and worked there for I think three, three or four years uh as a graphic designer and really liked it actually. I really liked the people I worked for, I really liked the work I was doing. I was on a really cool creative team of people who where I learned a lot about not just being creative, but how to work and operate in a workplace. And then, you know, but it's a church and there's always stuff, and there were politics and the behind the curtain part got a little tough. So um eventually I chose to step away. But I was I was there for three or four years out of college.

Speaker 1 17:50

Wait, there's interesting dynamics behind the curtains at a church. That's shocking. Um, he says ironically, isn't it? We've well, that's about all we've talked about. Yeah. And is that why you laughed?

Speaker 2 18:03

Yeah, it really is. I I was I was ready for something different. I was ready to actually move out of the graphic design realm and into something a little bit more interacting with people. I was I liked the work I was doing, but I was doing it by myself. And so I was looking for something that was a little more relational and you know, where I got to be with people and not just on my laptop all day. So um that's when I went to work for the National Youth Organization, where it was a much more relational job and didn't include graphic design at all, really. So kind of a career departure after that.

Speaker 1 18:33

But when you were working for the National Youth Organization, I think you were doing kind of a college ministry. And but there was something that happened. Yeah. So take us through that.

Speaker 2 18:44

So when I started working for like the National Christian Youth Organization, I I worked there for probably a year before this happened. So I was about a year in, same organization that I had been volunteering with forever, so I knew it well. And right at the start of COVID, actually, I, you know, a lot of stuff happened at the beginning of COVID. This is right after George Floyd was murdered, Black Lives Matter protests are breaking out. A weird moment in time for all of us. We're stuck inside, we're all separate. Um, and all these stories started coming out from people within the organization, students, youth within the organization about how they had been harmed. A majority of the stories were well, there was all there were all kinds of stories, actually. But I I'd say the thing that really got my attention were these stories about queer kids who had felt like they had been misled and you know, told one thing about being welcome and being included and being wanted, and then being told another thing when they got to the point of wanting to become a leader or go on staff with the organization. And so just a lot of stories about kids being hurt and kind of traumatized. Um and so that was I think that was about a year in and right at the start of the.

Speaker 1 19:55

What what was it? What were people complaining about?

Speaker 2 19:57

People were well, this there's all kinds of stories really. And it came it from as extreme as like my leader told me I'm going to hell because I'm gay, to like I was involved in this organization for 10 years and asked to be a leader, and then they told me I couldn't because I'm gay. So it, you know, the the story spanned a lot of different ways. But I think the heart of it was their policies were really, really vague. And I think the organization did that on purpose that they could kind of come across as like really progressive and inclusive and um, you know, kind of set themselves apart from other organizations, other Christian organizations. But when push came to shove, the reality was the same thing was happening to queer kids in this organization that was happening elsewhere, which is oh, nope, you're not allowed to step into leadership or be on staff or you know, who you are and what you are is bad or wrong or sinful or you know, all kinds of different stories, but that's what was happening.

Speaker 3 20:48

Can we back the train? Yes, you're gay, me, yes, yes, okay.

Speaker 2 20:54

I did not know that at this time.

Speaker 3 20:56

Oh, okay, because I'm like, how did that not like how how what was that like going back to middle school? And so you had not that's the next chapter in the story. I got it. Sorry, I get the popcorn. Okay, no, that's okay.

Speaker 2 21:09

I know. I'm confused too. We're all confused. It's confusing.

Speaker 3 21:13

Okay, wait, wait, hold on. So this is happening. Did you feel triggered? Like, what what was that experience like for you?

Speaker 2 21:21

You know, it's funny, and I like jokingly, I'm like, I should have known I was gay way center because this was always there, there were a lot of things, but the my problem with the church from day one was why are they so weird about gay people? Like, I yeah could never, I could never reconcile. I I I still can. I can't understand like a God who unconditionally loves and created us as we are. I can't understand that same body of people then looking at gay people and being like, that's wrong, or like you're bad, or what you're doing is not allowed. And so that is always a problem for me, but I didn't realize I was gay until gosh, 2022. So I Like okay way after I left the organization. So it it didn't trigger me in like a my own personal like oh that's about me. It was like you're hurting kids that I love and care about and I refuse to be a part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:13

So that's I was triggered, but in a not in like a personal maybe what Heidi was wondering was, Well, how did you get on staff? But you didn't you hadn't come out and you didn't know at the time. So you're going through this 2020 upheaval within the organization where people are coming out and with these stories. And I remember there was a Facebook community with hundreds, maybe thousands of these stories. Some of them were uh they were called Do Better. And so some of them were people that had been, you know, probably abused by their own leaders, but also then people going, wait, you tell me God loves me, but not enough to let me lead. Uh, you know, that kind of stuff. And I remember um Emma and I talked quite a bit at that time, at least I thought so, and um, and she was struggling. And so maybe talk a little bit about what that was doing for you internally.

Speaker 2 23:11

It it really felt impossible. I think for a few reasons. One, I really like I really believed that this organization was different. I really did. Like, even on I was employed by them and I didn't know that these policies were what they were because nobody ever said it clearly. And so I think I felt kind of blindsided myself. Like, wait, what? Nobody told me. Also, we live in California. So, like the culture of where we live, this organization is different than it is in other states in the country, right? Like, that's also something I recognized during this process was like a lot of these stories aren't happening in California, but some of them are. And I had no idea. But two, I had so many, and especially college, like college-age students who are coming to me with real stuff they have going on. Like they're struggling. College is such an awkward middle school is awkward, so is college. It's such a weird time of life, you know, trying to figure out who you are and what you want. And I knew, like, I'm like, I know there are a couple kids here who are kind of without explicitly saying it, I could tell. I'm like, they're going through something with their sexuality and they haven't figured that out. And so I also had specific kids in my mind of like, I can't do this to those kids. Like, I have kids in front of me sitting in front of me every week who I know this would really hurt. And so it was that. And then the other thing that was hard for me was having these conversations within with the other employees in the organization. I was finding that not many people were bothered, you know, or at least not the majority. Like I'd say there were a few of us, like maybe four of us, who were really, really like, this isn't good. Like, are we hearing these stories? Are we hearing what kids have to say? You know, we're here for them. Let's listen. And I really felt like I was being ignored, or like, I don't know. I felt, I think maybe because I was young, people were discrediting what I had to say or my thoughts about it. But um, yeah, I felt like I wasn't being heard. So it was that too, feeling like this place that I felt really safe and like I was a part of a community was now kind of looking at me like, stop, you know, stop causing a fuss. It's fine, just we're gonna keep moving. And I wasn't, I couldn't keep moving.

Speaker 1 25:10

Yeah, I think unfortunately people understood you clearly, but people also don't ask questions because they don't know what to do with the answers. And so, as you're asking questions, if the policies are vague and people are living under those policies, understanding that they're vague, they you know, if we don't talk about it, it's kind of like my parents' generation. If we don't talk about it, it won't happen. If we don't talk about it, we don't have to deal with it. Yeah, you know, it's why people for so many generations struggled with things like grief, where there's like we just don't talk about it. And so you were talking about it, and people, I'm sure, were having to struggle with it, not because they had just kind of segmented it, they'd put it in its own little box and they could deal with it some other time.

Speaker 3 25:55

Yeah. This was all during the pandemic, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:59

This was like in the like the first few months of the pandemic, I want to say. Steve, does that sound right? Like it was, I feel like it was really towards the beginning.

Speaker 3 26:07

Yeah, and I think that what you're saying is so relatable, Emma, because there's like this darker side of reality that we were faced with at the during the pandemic, where like marginalized groups were starting to express how they were feeling. And I feel like dominant groups were listening differently because we were home all the time. And it's six years later, and I think that those kinds of things are still happening. And so I'm so grateful that you're sharing your story because I think that it's uh it's not unique to that time, it's the times that we're living in even now. For sure.

Speaker 1 26:45

We I don't think we as a culture, and especially I'm an old white guy, I don't think old white people have a uh tolerance for elongated issues. You know, so that if we were dealing with George Floyd then, why aren't we still dealing with it? Because we don't have the tolerance for that. And if there was a big blip in this organization and in Emma's conversations about what do we do with the queer kids, then we don't have the tolerance to let it be an elongated uh issue, you know, and and first and foremost, you know, this country, the land we're on now, has dealt with racism for hundreds of years. Do we have it solved? No, but we also don't like talking about it because that was then, this is now, you know what I mean? And I think you know, so for Emma to to be talking about this, I think is great. And I I she honors us with her time. Um and it's an issue that's still happening in churches all over America and probably the world, it's happening in youth groups in America and probably over the world. And um, and it's an issue that I know the church that I go to, their policies are very vague. And you know, I've been pushing them in a way that has been like you say you're accepting, but you're not, you're only tolerant, and you wouldn't be tolerant of any other group. You wouldn't, if this was women or people of color, you wouldn't say, Well, we'll tolerate them, just not let them do these sort of things. But I want to kind of get back to Emma's story. Emma, what happened next?

Speaker 2 28:21

Yeah, after a lot of convers, I I think I the first time I saw a story, I knew. I was like, I don't really know that anything can keep me here. I like I really think when I look back, I don't I think there was probably two weeks of like conversations with people, talking to my supervisor, you know, talk calling Steve, freaking out, I'm sure. But I think I knew. I think there was like an inner knowing pretty early on. And so I'd say probably within two weeks of the first story, I called my supervisor and was like, I'm I have to put in my notice. Like, I can't be associated with this, I can't stand for it, I don't want my name on it. And I refused to look at my college students in the eye and say, I'll, I'll stay with this policy in place. I just can't do it. So yeah, so I put in my, I put in my two weeks notice and we had a like an all-staff, our first all-staff in-person meeting, like the last day of my last week that I went to. And it they decided to have, I don't know, I shouldn't call it a debate, but kind of. They they decided part of that staff retreat or meeting would be a debate around this do better stuff. That's kind of how my time ended. I I left with a bang. I didn't, I didn't go quietly.

Speaker 3 29:28

And what did that look like? Uh good for you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 29:33

It was not pretty.

Speaker 1 29:34

I I want people to hear this loud and clear because I I I have such a a high respect and love for Emma. Always have. 10-year friend diversary this year. But uh do you realize what kind of courage it takes to say this issue is wrong and I gotta leave? Emma did not have another job, she hadn't been applying, she didn't have a resume. She just knew she couldn't do this. I know you guys have heard me quote Brene Brown before, but Brene Brown says you can either be comfortable or you can be courageous. You can't do both. And at that moment, Emma was just so courageous.

Speaker 3 30:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1 30:14

And look yourself in the mirror. If it was you, could you have done it? I don't know that I could have. Um what was it like for you then in your own sort of awakening and your own sort of issues with the church and with your own faith and your own sexuality and all of that?

Speaker 2 30:31

Yeah, it was a weird time. And I I think in some ways COVID helped me. Um I I think the timing, I mean, the pandemic was traumatic for so many people for so many different reasons. We've talked about a few of them, but there are many more. But I think what it did do was give me time that I normally would have just I would have normally booked myself busy to just get through it and push through and push past it. But instead, I had all this time at home to really think and reflect and like sit on it. Like, what is happening within me? What is happening out there, and what am I gonna do? And so I I really think one, I stopped going to church at the start of COVID, largely around the George Floyd murder, because uh the places I had been going, the churches I had been going to at the time that I was trying to find a church, and none of them were really following COVID protocol, none of them were talking about George Floyd. So I had already kind of paused on going to church. Then all this stuff happened with my job and the organization there. So then I'm constantly thinking about, you know, my career and like my community. It's not just a career when you work in any, you know, in a religious organization, it's also the people you spend all of your time with. Yes. And so it was a lot of alone time, a lot of alone time to like think and process. And I really uh I don't know if you guys are fans of Glenn and Doyle. I love her, but she talks about this inner knowing. Um, she calls it the God within, God within, or you know, you're you're knowing, and finally had a minute to listen to like my own gut and my knowing. Yeah. And kind of move forward, you know, standing firm in what I believe and in my values, and not not feeling like I don't know how to say it. It's like I I knew I I've always had a really strong sense of who I am and what I believe. And so it didn't feel like a hard choice for me almost to choose to leave that job or that organization because I was like, well, I know what I believe, and the number one thing I care about is the people that I'm working with. And so if it's hurting them, it's not a question, I'm out. And so really it was just like, well, what do I do next? Because my whole career up until this point was within the realm of ministry. I wasn't a pastor, but I worked for a church and then I worked for, you know, a Christian youth organization. And both of them, you know, I'm like, how do I take what I've done and this career and move it into like a regular corporate world or job? I don't know. So it was a weird, it was a weird transition time, I think, but um a lot of self-reflection and a lot of growing, a lot of learning.

Speaker 3 33:00

And it at that point, like a lot of the conversations we've had on this podcast have been being able to separate the church hurt from who God is. And I know we haven't gotten to the like where are you now piece or where are you headed? But at that point in time, were you able to hold on to any kind of faith or see that God was different from the organization that you belonged to, or were all the lines blurred and you were just like kind of done?

Speaker 2 33:29

That's a good question. I don't think I ever, and I actually remember one time Susie said something to me, and I was like, Susie, don't worry. I never, I I'll say where I am now is different than where I was then, but at that point, I never mistook the two for each other. I still do to this day. I'm like, if I had to put money on it, I don't think God cares about people being gay. I think, and I don't even know what I think about God, but I like I I have always believed that. Like, I have no doubt, and that's not just because I'm gay, because that surprised me too. That came later, but I really like it, I wasn't confused. I I didn't feel like I was questioning Jesus or God. I was like, I don't like these people who are doing a disservice to who I believe Jesus is and who I believe God is, and what I believe God wants for people. And you know, so it was I never felt like I was confused between those two.

Speaker 1 34:23

Emma, you um you talked about your own uh you're being gay, and you you have surrounded your most of your career and your life with Christian people. And so what has it been like for you in coming out and having a relationship, and there's Christians around you that maybe have been great, maybe have caused more church hurt, maybe you know how how has that been for your family, Joss's family, other uh Christ followers that you know? Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 35:01

You know, it's it's been interesting. I think in some ways it was what I expected, and in some ways it wasn't. Like I alluded to, I didn't, I am not a queer person that knew I was gay at the age of five and you know, felt like I had to hide my whole life. I really just didn't know. I think I just focused on work and like friends and my community. And when I was in the church, the church was really where I spent all my time. I think I was just distracted and didn't really think about it. And then when Joss came out to my partner came out to me first, and it kind of I was like, oh wait, what? It like it almost like woke me up where I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to think about this. Not in a way of like I have to think about what that means about how I feel about you, but in a way of like, what does it mean about me? Because we had had such a like a close friendship and I didn't know. So I was like, wait, what? Swell alert, we ended up dating.

Speaker 1 35:53

So you guys had been friends a long time before that.

Speaker 2 35:56

Yeah, we were friends for years, uh, and I had no idea. And so I think it was kind of like uh a wake-up call for me to just think. I don't know, it's just something I had never even asked myself. Like, well, what am I? What do I, you know, who do I like? And I will say, I just thought we all hated boys. Like, I I think I've told Steve this. I'm like, I thought we all just kind of were like, one day there'll be one that's fine, but like generally they're not great.

Speaker 1 36:24

So I think some of my friends were like, yeah, we kind of had a feeling Emma, over the years, I've since apologized, but over the years I would ask her, you know, you're dating anyone, you see anyone, and she would tell us these stories. My wife and I, these stories about going on these dating apps, and like every guy either has a no shirt or they're holding a fish. Like this is this is the thing. The all of them they're in flannel with a fish or they have no shirt. And so, guys, if you're on a dating app, don't do that. I mean, whether a woman is uh gay or not, don't do that. Like, put a shirt on, bro. Nobody wants that, yeah. And yeah, your fish, yeah, your guy friends and your fisher friends may love that, but come on, bro, come on, be better, do better.

Speaker 2 37:11

Be better. That's right, do better.

Speaker 1 37:13

Uh go ahead, Steve.

Speaker 2 37:14

You should you should ask the next question because I feel like I kind of rambled.

Speaker 1 37:18

No, I it's I'm going back to the same question. That how the people that would say they're Christians or Christ followers in your family, in Joss's family, uh, in your community of uh influence, your people you know, friends, uh what how were their reactions? How did they do?

Speaker 2 37:38

I will say the people closest to me, the people whose reactions I cared the most about were all the best reactions. I mean, just love and care and you know, rooting for you, it you know, doesn't matter, great, cool, like been waiting for you to say something kind of reactions. And I'm like, oh, really? Because I didn't know you should have told me.

Speaker 1 38:01

One of your closest friends was like, yeah, it's about time. We knew.

Speaker 2 38:04

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 38:06

Did it feel like a journey of like getting courage to come out, or did it feel like this is who I am? Because it sounds like up until this point, everything has been very cut and dry for you. Like, this is who I am, this is how I show up in the world. Because there's so many queer people, particularly those who are a part of the church community or were a part of the church community, who felt like they couldn't tell the truth, that they were worried about it. Like, were you just this is who I am? Like, was it that easy, or did it feel like a struggle or fear, or what was that like?

Speaker 2 38:40

I think it was both. I think I think the hardest part, because both my partner and I, we met in the church, funny enough. And so, and we both knew all, we knew all the same people. And so I think the scariest part for me was that crowd of like, yeah, I because I keep in mind, I left my job over this. So I'm like, I already know what a lot of people think about this. So I kind of already was able to differentiate in my head, like, who's gonna think what about my relationship? So I think it it's a both and. So I had I think I felt confident. I didn't feel like God hated me. I felt like I have close friends who I knew would stick with me 100% no matter what, and say my family too, they're just the best. So I never worried about that. But I did know that there were people from my like pretty tight-knit community from my, you know, from the Christian spaces that I I we both knew, like, okay, we're gonna get some mixed reactions. And we I think it was kind of like because we were on our way out of going to a church regularly and I had left my job, I think it was a good time for us to do it because I wasn't I was spending more time with people outside of church. And so I think I wasn't so it would have probably been a lot harder had it been before I had left my job um in that community of people. But um, yeah, it was a mixed, mixed reactions, I think. And I think unfortunately the reactions that weren't great or the people who pulled away were largely my Christian, really Christian friends or people I had worked with in the past. So I wasn't surprised by it, but that's how it went.

Speaker 1 40:12

Well, let's name them all. No, I'm kidding. So so what's helped you in this journey? What's what's been something that's sort of helped with emotional, physical, social, spiritual kind of journey? What's what's helped you in in this six years or further?

Speaker 2 40:34

Really community, and it looks different than it did when I was, you know, working for a church or working for a religious organization. But I think it's it's always the answer for me is always gonna be people who love me and show up for me, is really what got me through it and will get me through whatever's ahead. Um, people like you, Steve, who, you know, I never had I like I was surprised when I found out I was gay. Okay. So I knew that when I told other people there might be a surprise factor, but I never had to wonder if Steve and Susie were gonna love me. And so really it's it's those relationships that I think carried me and and my relationship with my partner, Jocelyn. We were friends for years. So it's it really is having a partner in it who's going through the same thing in different ways. It's yeah, it's the people, it's the community that got me through it.

Speaker 1 41:19

What have you learned?

Speaker 2 41:20

I I think the biggest thing I learned, if I really, really look back and think of like, what's the the biggest thing I'm taking away, it's that I should trust my gut. Because I really, I really do think I had an inner knowing from the first time I stepped foot into church in sixth or seventh grade about the the values and the things that were important to me and that I was not willing to negotiate or compromise on. And I think that same feeling and that same knowing is what got me out of an organization that I was not aligned with. And so, and I and it's the same feeling that told me it's okay to say yes to like dating a woman and doing something unconventional and different than what I had pictured for my life. And so, and those are all the best things I've those are the best things I did for myself um and for my future. So I think that's that's really what I learned. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 42:08

You mentioned Glenn. Are there other authors like I can think of a few that like Jedediah Jenkins? Did you ever read his book? Oh, you're gonna have to look him up. I'll text you later.

Speaker 2 42:21

Okay, yeah. Yeah, I would love to. No, Glennon Doyle really is the she's she's probably like the biggest voice I started listening to once I once I thought to myself, like, am I really gay? Is this really the plot twist that's gonna that's gonna happen in my life? She she had an even bigger plot twist because she started, she was married with children and then got divorced and then started dating a famous soccer player who's a woman. So I was like, well, she's she's been through the plot twist. So let me see what she has to say. Um and I also just she's like a poet to me. I love her words, they are like magic to my ears. So she's probably the biggest, the biggest author I really like. Or I listened to her podcast and also read her books. But um, yeah, yeah, she was probably it.

Speaker 1 43:04

That's awesome. Emma, there are, as you can imagine, people listening to this from all different walks of life, all different religion kinds of backgrounds, hopefully even different faiths and whatnot. And there's plenty, you know, in the church that have grown up hearing, you know, being gay is wrong and it's a sin and blah blah blah. I don't expect you to like uh speak for the whole queer community, but what would you like people to know about about the queer community or loving them or having faith and uh engaging with that? Um like what what what would you like to say to everybody? This is your big shock.

Speaker 2 43:46

Oh gosh, no pressure. Um I don't know. I I think what I would say that freedom is something we should all want for ourselves and for everybody we know and love. And so I I really I think to me that's what being queer is. It's just being free. It's like it's like permission to just be the truest version of myself, no matter what it looks like. And I I think that unfortunately in the world we live in and the culture we live in, and specifically within, you know, religious circles, Christianity, lots of other religions too, I think queerness has become this like hot topic thing that I don't think it has to be. And I just wish people would stop thinking about any marginalized group as other and instead think of them as like neighbor. You know, it's like if you can I don't think I don't think empathy should require proximity. But if you're a person that is having a hard time, go like find somebody in that people group that you're unfamiliar with, have a conversation, and it's gonna change your mind. I think it'll change your mind. I think when you can see somebody as a human being and want them to feel and be and experience freedom, I think I think that's what makes all the difference. And I and I do think that that's the Jesus that I learned about and read about and was taught. I think that's what Jesus did for people was give them freedom. And so um that's what I would say.

Speaker 1 45:13

Wow, I mean, thank you.

Speaker 3 45:15

What you're saying is so important for people to hear. Part of my professional background has been revolved around a study that we did with Yale University to understand why we feel uncomfortable around people who are different from us. And so when you grow up cis, when you grow up straight and you don't have a lot of exposure to people who are part of the LGBTQ community, as being a straight person, my mom's best friend was gay. So I was around the gay community from the time I was small. I didn't know that there were feelings about the gay community until I got older because I had that comfortability and familiarity, and that's all it takes is creating relationship, not so that a person can educate you about their background or debate you, but create authentic relationship with one person that you previously perceived as different or other, will actually change your brain chemistry and create comfortability for the whole group.

Speaker 2 46:18

Yeah, that's all it takes. I believe it. So yeah, that's all it takes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:23

Emma, I we normally and thank you for that. And also I forgot to thank you for your kind words about me and my wife. And um if she were here, she'd be she might be driving down there to hug you right now. I don't know. We we sort of ask, you know, people how where they about the hurts and about you know what's helped and where are you headed? And I think we sort of alluded to that, but I don't know if you want to say, you know, where where are you headed? What what do you feel like is part of your you're on a faith journey. Where are you going?

Speaker 2 46:56

Yeah, I've been I've been thinking about this ahead of this conversation, and I don't know that I have a great answer other than to say, I'm just taking it one day at a time, and I really do feel like I think I learned there's a lot of uh I know a lot of hurt came from my time in the church and in the organization I worked for, but I think a lot of growth happened too, a lot of opportunity to reflect and again to like double down on the things I knew I believed in and want to stand firm in. And I I don't at this point in my life, I don't really picture myself going back to like organized an organized religious group. I don't really see myself going back to a church regularly or even really like feeling like I could say I'm a Christian. Um, but I do think there's a lot of things that I've learned about spirituality from my time in the evangelical Christian church that I do carry with me. Like I think I take time to notice things. I I feel like I I spend time outside more because I want to notice like natural beauty, you know. Like I do think like the spiritual practices, some of which I learned from my time in the church, are with me now. And I think for me, it's just kind of where I'm headed is I'm taking it one day at a time and trying to notice the beautiful stuff. Um, life is hard, but uh I feel like God or whatever, you know, whatever the word is, other word maybe for God. I feel that when I'm with people I love and when I'm outside. So I try to just spend a lot of time doing both of those things.

Speaker 3 48:22

That's what faith is, right? Like faith is not the certainty of knowing the black and white rules and structure of what the Bible says. I think that faith is showing up to what unfolds each day. That's beautiful. So thank you, Emma, for sharing your story. It's so tough to kind of capture something that was probably a very difficult, messy, emotional journey in an hour, but you you captured it really well. I want like a part two.

Speaker 1 48:56

Yes, happy to share any time. We'll have Emma as a recurring guest, maybe.

Speaker 3 49:01

Yes.

Speaker 1 49:02

Um Emma, I just want to thank you for your time and just your courage to be open and to be bold and just to be who you are. And it's you know, you and I we just we figured it out. We're celebrating our 10-year friendiversary this year, and what we got today is what I met 10 years ago. Like one of the things that I love about you is that you've been genuine from the very beginning, even when we were next to the river, standing on a big rock and saying, I don't want to jump, that was so genuine. And then she did. I may have bullied her into it. I don't know. We'll talk about that. It'll be the next episode. Next time. Um, but just the how genuine and caring and loving you are towards uh me and my family, as well as everyone that comes in contact with you. So thank you for being a part of this today. And I hope that our listeners learned something. I hope that they get to know Emma Lenz a little bit because in my book, she's uh one of the best. And if everyone could be her friend, that might crowd me out. So I don't want that, but I do want people to at least get to know you and hear your story. So thank you so much for spending some time with us.

Speaker 2 50:20

Thanks, Emma. And thanks for having me, you guys. It means a lot.

unknown 50:27

Okay, all right, right, right.

Speaker 1 50:28

All right, well, um, just so you know, like I got back from vacation yesterday, and so I'm still a little in between time zones. If in case I found it sounded a little funky, but um, but also Emma is a I think a fun storyteller, and she had a uh story from her childhood when she was on vacation. So Emma, let's hear it.

Speaker 2 50:51

Okay, so this is one of those things where in the moment you're so confident, and now here I am. I mean, I must have been in middle school when this happened, and here I am 20 years later, I'll never live it down. I should have never been confident. Basically, what happened was my cousin is an only child. So my aunt and uncle took my cousin and I on a family vacation together, and the four of us are like going all through Southern California, we're stopping at like the beach towns, whatever. And like the maybe the second day on the trip, I started early, unfortunately. We're walking down. Also, I should probably not be sharing this story in hindsight because I do communications for a living, and this is like not gonna make me look good. But we're like walking down the street and they're like, oh, let's look at like the menu for this restaurant. I'm like, okay. So we're looking at the menu, and I'm like, I'm like, you guys, what is I've never heard of, I've never heard of this. They're like, what is it? I'm like, Kajune chicken? They're like, Kajune. And my aunt's like, Cajun chicken? I'm like, what is that? This I'm like growing up in the suburbs of Northern California, having my mom thinks pepper is spicy, you guys. Like, I didn't know I didn't know anything. So I'm like, oh my gosh. So, anyways, to this day it's Kajune. But then to make things worse, the next day we're walking somewhere and there's some big sign. And again, like, I don't know why I feel the need to just sound it out out loud. I should have just waited or not said anything, but I'm like looking at a sign, I'm like, Cali Pasot. I'm like, what? I'm like, Austin, do you know what Cali Pasot is? And my aunt's like, are your do you go to school like calypso? What like are your parents just like neglecting you? And I'm like, my mom's a teacher and it was an English major anyway. So in my family, it's still Kajun and Cali Pasot.

Speaker 3 52:44

As it should be for the rest of us going forward.

Speaker 1 52:47

Yeah, I can't wait to go have some Kajune chicken sometime soon.

Speaker 4 52:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1 52:53

Um my story is also uh kind of restaurant related because I just got back from vacation. I went on a long road trip through the south, and people in the south you guys drove? No, we flew to Atlanta and then we drove about 3,000 miles or so as we toured those states. No, no, we're not we're dumb, but we're not stupid. Um so we all the people in the south have these fun accents. I mean, I love Heidi's accent, and I I can do that one a little bit, but the people in the south, all these fun accents, so I don't know where people are from, but we were in North Carolina, and you know, the South has great food. What they don't have is salads, and so my wife and I were like Jones and for a salad, and we decided right across the street from our hotel, there was an olive garden. So I'm not like a huge olive garden fan, but they have unlimited breadsticks and salad. So we went for unlimited salad and breadsticks. But let me ask you this have you ever been in a place where somebody is talking so loud you can't possibly ignore them? You I mean, you try, you try to like zone out, you can't possibly ignore them. Like behind me was a guy with his back to me, and behind him or across from him was a guy talking so loud in the southern accent, and everything he said, we couldn't tune it out. I tried, believe me, I tried. I tried making conversation with my wife. I tried being on my phone, I tried everything, and um, I could not tune it out. But he was talking about uh, you know, uh, I've learned some stuff now, and I I've got great joy right now. I'm learning salsa dancing, and there's a lot of there's a lot of teachers on the YouTube, so you can do some salsa dancing anywhere. In fact, if you take your shoes off, it slides a little easier in the carpet, and it's good to do salsa dancing. And he's telling his friends the joys of salsa dancing and why they should all be in part of it. And then this waitress came to us, and she was clearly Latina, she had uh accent like Spanish was maybe her first language. I spoke, we communicated in Spanish. She went to the next table behind me, and he says to her, Hey, do you like salsa? And she starts talking about, you know, in her accent, I like it, but not very hot, not very hot. He goes, No, no, salsa dancing. Like if this was a different place, I would just stand up, we'd be just salsa dancing right now. And he's going on and on about salsa dancing, and then he says, and this is why I bring it up on this podcast, because maybe I've been doing faith all wrong. He says, Listen, there's four things you need to be know about faith: love God, love yourself, love people, and salsa dancing. I'm going, wait, he must have said it four or five times. You gotta know four things love God, love yourself, love people, and salsa dancing. That's all you need to know about faith. And so, friends, today, as we leave you with the Faith Rehab Podcast, I just want you to know that if salsa dancing is a part of your faith, then you are blessed more than you can probably imagine, according to people in North Carolina.

Speaker 4 56:07

Amen.

Speaker 1 56:08

Thank you for being here. Thank you to Emma, thank you to Heidi and CJ. Thank you for being a part of the Faith Rehab Podcast. Don't forget to tune in in a couple of weeks when we drop our next episode. Like, subscribe, do all of those things. We love you guys. We're glad you're a part of it. And Heidi, be blessed. Be blessed.

Speaker 2 56:27

Be blessed. Bye, guys.