Ep. 7 - Grace's Story — Missions, Domestic Abuse, and the Church

Before you listen: This episode touches on abuse. If anything you hear today resonates with you, resources are available. Two we recommend — Flying Free Now ( www.flyingfreenow.com ), a resource built specifically for Christian women, and the National Domestic Violence Hotline . For the hotline please call 1-800-799-7233 or text START to 88788, free and confidential, 24/7.

What happens when the church sends a family to the mission field — and the real danger is inside the home?

In this episode, we sit down with Grace (not her real name) — a Christian woman, a missionary, and domestic abuse survivor — to hear her story of surviving abuse within a Christian marriage, and what healing has actually looked like on the other side.

We talk about the moments nobody warned her about — the isolation, the spiritual manipulation, the way faith was used as a tool for control. We talk about what the church got right, what it got terribly wrong, and what she wishes someone had said to her sooner.

We break down the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation — because they are not the same thing — and why the church’s tendency to conflate the two has kept so many survivors stuck, silent, and unsafe.

If you’ve ever experienced religious abuse, spiritual manipulation, toxic marriage dynamics, or felt like the church chose the abuser over you — please listen and share this episode to anyone in mind.

Grace also drops some unexpectedly solid parenting advice. Be blessed everyone!

Faith Rehab is a podcast about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

We create a safe space for honest conversations about spiritual disappointment, doubt, and the process of finding hope again—without pretending or having all the answers.

Co-hosts: Steve McNitt, Heidi Brandt & CJ Mateo
 Produced by: CJ Mateo

Contact us at Faithrehabpodcast@gmail.com
— we’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

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This faith rehab episode touches on abuse. If anything you hear today resonates with you, we want you to know that there are resources available. Flyingfreenow.com is a great resource specifically for Christian women and the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Click the show notes for more information on both. Thank you and enjoy today's episode. Hey, welcome to Faith Rehab. Thanks for listening today. Today we're going to hear the difference between reconciliation and forgiveness. And we're also going to listen to useful advice on how to use a tooth fairy for parenting. And I learned that my accent makes me really bad at I don't even know how to say the language. Tagalog. Tingala? Tagalog. Tagalog. Enjoy. It's worth it. Okay, all right, right. Welcome to Faith Rehab. Real talk about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith. We exist to create a community for those that have been hurt by the imperfections of the church. My name is Steve. They sometimes call me dub because I am Heidi's Heidi's uncle. It's the dead uncle's bestie. That's what dub stands for. Yes, he's my dub. I am Heidi, and I um I haven't thought of anything. Sorry, my brain is fried. It's really late. Can I do that again? I'm Heidi. TMI too high. And I like long walks on the beach. Oh gosh. You just heard someone that didn't prepare for a fun fact. Heidi. Anyways, my name is CJ. I uh BMI Too High here. Uh I got three kids, two dogs, one wife. And you did it right this time. I did. Uh and I'm a band geek. I play friend, I play a lot of instruments, but I love band. Band geeks in the world. I love you guys. CJ's your guy. I'm your guy. Today, what are we doing on our show today, TJ? Hey, we we are cutting this the small talk here early because we have a very, very good idea. Are you okay? She's like dropping drooling on her all over herself. Yes. My airpod popped out, and then my dream came out of my notes. Yeah, by the way, you're still suffering from a broken computer, so you're using your airpods. That's why you sound like that. Listen, here's the thing, okay? My ex-husband has been out of the country for two weeks. I've been left alone with four boys, two dogs. I bought more groceries than I can even count. I'm I'm just losing my mind. Well, guys, just be ready for a really good conversation. We're cutting it short here because we have a good interview with um, well, we're gonna name her Grace. So stick around. Hey, today um we have a special guest, and um, she's very special to me because she is my family. She's my my first cousin, my dad's sister's daughter. Um, given the nature of her story, and I'm so glad that she's brave enough to come on and tell her story. We're gonna keep her identity anonymous. We're gonna call her Grace today. So today, Heidi and Steve, we have Grace here with us. Hi, Grace. Thank you so much for being here. Of course. Hey, um, in preparation for this, you sent us your resume, and um, so I just have a few questions before we hire you. No, I'm kidding. Um there were a couple of things on your resume that I was really excited about. First of all, I am a licensed clinical social worker. I've been I got my master's degree probably before you were born, and I've been doing this for about 30 years. But you tell us your education. You are also a social worker. Yes, well, I'm not practicing right now, but I my education background is yes, social work. So I I love social work actually. Also, us social workers, we know that it's not just about what you do, it's about who you are. In fact, one of my grad school professors used to say, we don't create social workers, families do. And then, you know, I think that's true of a of a lot of us. But one of the things that you've done in your past, you were uh pregnancy parenting at adoption social worker. And um our family is a family by adoption that we have two boys, both adopted, both better looking than anything we could have produced. Amen. Thank you for it. Yeah, that was a little quick on the amen there, CD. I had to say that. The truth, truth hurts, though, right, bro. Um, anyway, you've done some really interesting stuff. Do you want to kind of catch us up or tell our listeners, or or do you want us to do you want me to just tell everybody all the cool stuff you've done? Well, yeah, actually that job was probably um my what I felt like was like my most social worky job that I've done, and that um I got to work on the birth parent side of the adoption process. So I didn't work very closely with the actual adoptive parents, but walking with the women who were choosing to whether or not they were going to place their child for adoption. And so I feel like that has honestly shaped a lot of like my mothering journey. Um, because I did that job before I was a mother, and now that I have two, I have two little girls, um, I look back on that season and I'm just like, wow, those are some of the strongest women I've ever known. Yeah. So our birth parents are heroes. Like people love adoption. This is a a different subject. People love adoption. Like they hear about our kids, they go, Oh, isn't that great? Your kids are adopted. And they talk to our kids, you're adopted, isn't that great? You you're adopted, isn't that great? What they don't love is birth parents who relinquished because they go, Oh, I could never do that. Oh, didn't they love their kids? Oh, didn't they? And what you realize is they love their kids so much that they were willing to do the hard thing so that their kid would have a life and that we could be parents. And you know, right now there are a hundred thousand couples waiting to adopt, and so it's uh, you know, you need birth parents. And so thank you for doing that work with them. What was that hard? Was it fun? Was it what was it? Do caseworkers ever say their work is fun? I don't know. It was rewarding, it was rewarding work, and I would say I probably learned more from my clients than they learned from me, like just walking and doing life with them and the hardship that they've had to go through. And actually, I went into social work and I got my um social work background with the purpose of using it cross-culturally and overseas. And so that's initially why I went into social work. And so that, yeah, that pregnancy parenting adoption work was kind of a preparation for what I saw myself doing overseas. Cool. Tell us a little bit about some of the resume stuff. You were a missionary, tell us the work you're doing now. I mean, we want to hear your whole story, but maybe just give us a few snippets to kind of give some background. Yeah, so I started ministry on campus ministry, working with international students. I've always been drawn to international peoples and communities. Part of that's probably like with my background. My mom is an immigrant from the Philippines. And so going on campus and being a welcomer to international students. And then yeah, that led me to doing several mission trips with this campus ministry, and eventually, after doing some social work practice stateside, I uh went ahead and pursued uh doing mission work uh with our family in the Philippines, and so we lived there for about two and a half years uh learning the language, the culture, and it was a lot of church planting focus along with like community development, just kind of goes hand in hand. And through circumstances that you will hear in my story, um came back to the states, and um a lot of my work currently has been working with an organization that trains and sends cross-cultural workers all over the world. And um, my role is I help with some admin things, but a lot of the role I'm passionate about is the pastoral care side of it, where I'm making sure that these cross-cultural workers and their national partners, so the locals that they partner with in those countries, are holistically well and taken care of, and mostly to help them stay on the field longer or come back if they need to. And a lot of my focus is actually on their kids and making sure um their kids are feeling seen and heard in those spaces. Oh, what a what a gift. That's fantastic. That should be like a requirement in any ministry anywhere. That's a I didn't even know that was a thing. Yes, I've benefited a lot from of my previous orgs, like in the ways they took care of us. And so I think being able to serve in that specific way, I just see how important and vital, honestly, it is for anyone working cross-culturally or ministry in general. Yes, that's amazing. I love it. Your cousin's pretty cool. She is cool. I mean that, like so much cooler than me. I mean, amen to that. Um, but okay. There you go, Steve. That was payback. So um the most important question we're gonna ask today is who knows more Tagalog, you or CJ? Oh boy, really? Yeah, well, I didn't Steve knows this. I clearly don't know any oh you had a you had a benefit too. Both your parents are Filipino. Oh, you're in California and a cousin, yes. Bring it. This is why this is really why we wanted you on. It's to throw shade on CJ. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing your background. I'm really curious now to know when you think about your own personal hurt from the church or Christian organization. Like, what does that story look like for you? I want to hear about that. It's interesting, it's um definitely an ongoing processing, I'd say, as like my journey continues, and I'm I wouldn't say I'm in a place where I'm like, I have come to full resolution and processing my journey. It's like ongoing as the healing process is ongoing. But um, yeah, so I mentioned that I uh yeah, started really following Jesus like on fire through campus ministry. And it is there that I met my uh ex-husband. And so he was my spiritual, like he was like a student leader in the organization, and he was the one in charge and overseeing um the ministry that I was a part of, the international students. So I met him in that context, and he I was my really my first boyfriend, my first relationship, and with that there was a lot of just unhealthy things there. Like I'm 18 years old, he's graduated from uh college at this point, uh, five years ahead of me. Um and so relationship-wise, it was not healthy from the beginning. However, I'd say my naivety and also really me just trying to actively like follow the Lord and what I felt like he was calling me to, it really got enmeshed with my relationship with him um from the beginning. This view of ministry and calling was very enmeshed with my relationship with my uh boyfriend at the time. And so uh when things felt not right, the gaslighting and the things that kind of come with that package of abuse was subtly already happening. And so yeah, looking back, and I'm trying to look back at my myself then with more compassion because sometimes I look back and I'm just like, I just want to shake like this is like this is left or something. But um looking back, I think a lot of it was uh my ignorance and naivety of just like um how relationships should be. And um, I would say it was a lot of spiritual abuse at the beginning, and that when I would raise concerns about how difficult I felt like things were, off things were, um, it usually turned on me to, well, I need to go seek the Lord and look at myself and see how do I need to fix myself and so Carissa, like and and when those things happen and you seek counsel for those things, who did you go to? In this campus ministry, we had our disciplers, so the people assigned to us. Usually these are just upperclassmen in college, so like other college students, or maybe their other interns um or staff of the campus ministry. So I would voice how difficult my relationship was uh to my discipler or the team leader of our campus at the time. And again, it kind of went back to the basics of like, okay, well, like let's evaluate what's going on in your life. Not in a, I would say trying to be harmful way, but like what's in your control? Yeah. And it wasn't much about like what is how what are healthy relationships? Like, what does that look like? And I think part of it too was the nature of it. I had a hard time articulating what was actually wrong. Was he able to take any responsibility for what was wrong? Or was he just kind of blaming you for you got a problem? I I'm good, like I'm cool, but you got a problem. Was he taking any responsibility? I always was the one that had the problem, except the many times I attempted to break up with him during our three years of dating. So when it would like, when I'd almost break up with him, it'd turn into this like, oh, like I'll turn over a new leaf. I'll so like all these promises, love bombing. And there was also kind of this martyrdom spirit I had about me at the time of like, well, Jesus, like I thought I was gonna be his savior, but like I'm like, well, I'm trying I'm trying to be like Christ, and I see that the gospel, so I was kind of making premature commitments to how I was going to sacrifice and love this person who wasn't I wasn't even married to, um, believing that I was also like following Jesus in that, and it was kind of affirmed by him as well that yeah, I'm that's that's what love is, right? I think it's very confusing, particularly when I don't did you grow up in the church? I did. Okay, I grew up in the church. Purity culture was a huge part of that, and I went to a Christian college where I felt like women, young girls were there to find a ministry partner. And when you talk about enmeshment, there's so much confusion because you have a crush on someone or you have feelings for someone that start to develop, and it all intersects with our faith, our feelings, our wounding as a kid, their wounding. And when we love the Lord and we're following what God wants for us and we're praying for his will, like and we're seeking counsel, it just all becomes so layered. And and when we're young, like when you said you just want to go back and shake her, I look back and I'm like, I just want to hug her. Like there were times when I was younger where I look back and think, gosh, if I could just say you don't have to make any decisions now, but the pressure to marry young. And so, like, were you feeling I'm hearing you say that was all the conflict that you were feeling on top of um emotional abuse from somebody who was that you had feelings for, and you're trying to like navigate the complexity of all of it. Does that fit? I mean, even as you say that, I'm just like, I'm I'm remembering how they would advertise like, come to this like conference, you might find your future spouse there. Like that was like a persistent message throughout, like, we're all spouse hunting and we're all looking for someone who we can serve the Lord together. And so Mission and Mate was very like it seemed very synonymous and separating the two. It's it's mission and mate. Is that like an app? Uh I don't know. Or just a tag one. I don't know, it should be a great idea. Let's now, CJ. We just talked about how much that hurt, and then we're like, hey, we can make money off this. Hey, we can make money, mission and mate. Who needs Tinder when you can have the Holy Spirit guide your swiping? Yeah, yeah. Mm's baby. Oh the catch is they they only match with Jesus Christ. That would be the word. Wow. Grace, the one thing that um that sort of jumps out at me, and this is from my background and and in your schooling, you know, we we learn about abuse cycles. But when we're in them, that honeymoon period feels so good because he really does love me and he really is a good guy, and he really is, you know, doing the things that I want. And if I could capture that moment and live forever and ever, then it would be perfect. But then the cycle continues on where it gets worse. And um, boy, I am so sorry that you went through that, but but for people that are in that now, what what have you learned? What could you teach them? What could you tell them about that now, like in this moment? Yeah, I as you were speaking, I was thinking about how like we get so locked in to like that fantasy uh potential that may not ever be realized. And I'd say you're you're wanting to look at what is the current behavior now and let that speak for itself, not the promises of the change that you hope for in the future, and hearing all of that. There was like an instance of like an outburst of anger, dysregulation, and then you know, that's an instance that can be, I think, work through, forgiveness, reconciliation, but a pattern of behavior that keeps happening over and over again, despite the the ups that come after it. That's something that just needs to be broken. And that's so good. So good. Yeah. What boundaries now, looking back, do you feel like you violated for yourself? Like, how did you compromise who you were and made yourself small to accommodate a relationship that wasn't healthy? Yeah, so I I moved from campus ministry and also I kind of use the words like I feel like I was seduced into marriage with my calling. So he kind of dangled this thing in front of me of like, I see your vision and heart to do missions and go to the Philippines and do these things. And so he was like kind of packaging himself with this thing, this very personal thing of mine. Wow. It felt like the whole package, like I wouldn't go by myself, like this person, we you know, we're trained in the same way. So viewing him also as my partner. I'm sorry, were there red flags for like family or friends? Or was this just something you were seeing and he kind of um presented himself differently in front of your circle? Looking back, people will say, Oh, that explains that one incident, or I remember when we saw this, but because for others, I think they like see like one thing in isolation rather than the whole thing, or how I would probably excuse it or minimize it, because I participated in enabling. And protecting his image as well. I think there were people, well, I know, I know there were people along the way. Um, and I'll fast forward to so proposal. He proposes to me with a book that has like a picture of the map of the Philippines on it. And it's like, you ready for the next chapter? So he I it's so enmeshed. And uh, we're meeting with our premarital, like doing our premarital counseling with our pastor who baptized him and has been like mentoring him since he became a Christian, like probably five years before that, and is scholarshipping him for seminary. And I tell our pastor, I say, you know, when we're in conflict, I get called the B word pretty regularly. And I was just very honest and very explicit with the names that he calls me, what happens. Um, and I probably leaned even more heavy on like, and I react in this way, like talking about my trauma reaction and how unregulated I was because like I like we're just we're just our conflict is kind of scary, and I turn into this monster, and like it is kind of presented in that way because I'm also trying to honor him and respect him and not be punished later for being honest, um, but truly seeking counsel. Um, and this pastor had us read a bunch of verses about the power of words and you know, kind of a slap on the wrist type of counseling for him and telling me to not put my trust in him, but to keep putting my trust in Jesus. And he married us, right? Yeah, we got married, and a week later, um, we go to uh we have our honeymoon, and that's when I started experiencing um the physical abuse. Uh and it was like it's very covert and it can be explained as accidents or you know, things like that. Um, so it's very confusing. Um, and I kind of describe it as your eyes get adjusted to the dark. So your eyes, your things start becoming normalized. Um, your threshold for what you're willing to tolerate goes higher. And there's an this entire community around you. Like at this point, he's interning for the church, he's being scholarshipped for seminary. We are looked at as like, oh, like we're raising support to do missions, we help teach various things in the church, this power ministry couple. Yeah, and so people are naturally, I think, going to assume the best and believe the best, even when you say what the worst is that's happening, and view that transparency as wow, they're being so transparent, they must be working through it and growing. How transparent were you? Like, did anybody know that that was happening? Yes. Uh, within three months, I told our pastor on the phone that this just happened. My jaw is clicking from how hard he hit me. Oh, and oh my gosh, I was in the closet calling pastor, and I go out and my ex is listening, and he crumples to the ground in tears. Like it's just because he was exposed, but it wasn't over. So the pastor called us into his office. I remember the Bible verse, it was a psalm about how the Lord is like He is the one in charge of the horses and chariots. Like He is He is my prince. I remember being told, like, give give Jesus your glass slipper. So that was the message for me. And for him, it was another like well, maybe more firm slap on the wrist. I don't um, there was no like question about his seminary, there was no question about his current internship, but more so like, well, let's let's assign you to this other couple in the church to mentor you guys because you're just early. And and I think this pastor who is still pastoring, I think he has his own stuff. Probably. Yeah, I think so. Um but this is also like how many other people have been in his office in similar situations, and yeah, so he continued seminary. Did you feel believed? Like when you shared what had happened, or did you even kind of modify it? You said you enabled him. Do you feel like you packaged it in a way that was a little bit more digestible instead of probably being more honest, maybe? Um, I remember in that instance, I was as explicit as I could be. I didn't feel the feelings of betrayal or like I wasn't protected, but I think I actually walked away with it a degree more of like what I've called community gaslighting of like, I guess when people say that marriage is hard, marriage is hard. And this is like with my social work background, like I've been, but it's like when you're in it, and I always think, like, what would have this been like if I took away all the spirituality out of it and like the covenant talk and the honoring my head, like, would it have been so much easier to see it plainly for what it was without? I don't know, so yeah, but I was seeking at the time another church, not because of that situation, um, but because this other church plant I was looking at was doing more social justice oriented things in our community. Let me can I stop you for a second? Yeah. You you walk into the pastor's office with your now ex-husband. You've clearly already said, listen, he hit me so hard, it's making my jaw click. I mean, this is not normal. It's it's actually criminal, literally. What did you need? Like what would have helped? I needed uh someone to give me permission uh to leave and find safety. And the people that were in your life at that time was there anyone that you felt like was even close to that? Was there anyone who maybe that wasn't the pastor, they got a title, right? Maybe it's the discipler has a title, but was there anyone in your life that was could could speak to that? Yeah, so within that first year of marriage, I went to the people who were at the time leading our campus ministry that I was so I was interning actually for this campus ministry. So I now I was on campus and I remember going to the wife and showing her my arms. But the way I presented it was I go crazy during conflict and he has to restrain me, and so that's like how I kind of told it in my head, and so that's how I explained it to her, but immediately her and her husband said, as soon as he calls you a name, like even if he doesn't lay a finger on you, you come to our house. This is our garage code. They were also the first ones that met with us and started talking about seeking counseling from like professionals, not like older people in the church or I don't know, yeah, whatever a church has. Yeah. Right. It's one of the things that I said on this podcast and will continue to say, is that even pastors, and I'm not saying this yours was, but even pastors with really big hearts, that even if they give you scripture, there has to be a how. You know, if whatever they were slapping your ex-husband's wrist with had to be a how, like get some anger management, bro. And um, until you do, like, we need to put you on pause because um it's just not I mean, really, what we're talking about is domestic violence. And um, when you hear it called that, even in spiritual terms, what what does that mean to you? It's interesting you say that because the first time my situation was labeled out loud to me as domestic violence wasn't until seven, eight years later, nine years later. Nine years later. Yeah. I'm gonna speak to pastors and ministry leaders right now. Friends, are you hearing this? Like, this is stupid. That we need to not spiritualize things that are inappropriate. That that when a uh a man, no matter what the man's problem is, or a woman, no matter what the woman's problem is, if they are expressing their anger in inappropriate ways, they need help. And I've spent a large part of my career trying to help angry men work out their anger. And and and what I'll say is this anger is an emotion that God created, so it's okay, but it's how you express it that can not be okay. And if you're a pastor, be aggressive in this field. If you're a ministry leader, would you be assertive and aggressive in making people get some help that is not just Bible verses? And you know, I love the Bible, and Bible verses are so helpful, but they're not enough unless they come with a how. And um Grace, as much as you want to go back to that young bride and shake her, I want to go to the pastor and shake him. I know. What was he trying to protect? What was he trying to protect? It just doesn't make any sense. I I won't defend him. Oh, I know you're not. But but I will also say that a lot of us in the church don't know what to do with hard things. And what I would say is, well, then lean on the people who do. I just want to say I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing the story because of your professional background, you're using language that I think is gonna help women who are in situations like you. Um like give this is an author named Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat Pray Love talks about how she created a word ladder for people to get out of their pain. And what you're doing in how you're explaining this and the language that you're using, you are giving women a word ladder to get out of their pain. And that's ministry. Yeah. So thank you. It's beautiful, and also knowing uh Grace as growing up, her parents are very intelligent people. She's a very intelligent person. Yes, she had this list of like a hundred books I read this month. I'm like, a hundred books. That's crazy. I don't know if I read a hundred books. I did. When I was a young father, I read a hundred books. Hop on pop, um redfish, bluefish. No, but her being so well read and also on a professional level learning these things, it's like it's it's really sad you went through this, but I know you could help a lot of people out of this as well. And I want to know when you said it was like what eight or nine years before someone called it domestic violence. I know from my own experience, I'm curious when you uh eight or nine years later heard it called domestic violence. How did that sit with you? So I'm like thinking through my story a little bit chronologically. We moved to churches and again I come to the table and I say, This is what our first year of marriage looked like. At this point, he stopped all physical, uh overt physical abuse and it remained in a more covert emotional, psychological, spiritual control state. Which is which can be just as harmful or more so. Yes, if not worse, you're like, let me have the bruises. Yes, then people know. Yes, and because of that, it kept it under the radar for so long, and in my mind, I'm thinking, and my hopefulness, well, we must be growing, we must be getting better because it's not like that first year of marriage. That was crazy. Like the Lord has done, like I was already like shit talking about our marriage. Like, I have this testimony of like, God has done so much in our marriage. Um, and yet the abuse pervaded. And as I continue to go to like we're now working for this other, this next church. Um, I'm also doing social work practice on the side, and you know, there are seasons where we're raising support, preparing for the mission field, reviewed as leaders in this church plant for missions and outreach and all of that. So the culture of this church plant was you share your gritty story, and the emphasis is less about like the love of Christ healing you and more about the repentance of sin and how suffering is sanctifying. Wow. And so when you're surrounded in this culture where it's praised to suffer well, which is like important and beautiful, and repentance of your sin is so emphasized, again, it affected how I presented the conflict that was happening in our marriage and the counsel I was receiving when I would share really hard things. And so by the time we get to the mission field, I am with a very large denominational organization doing missions with them, and my husband and now my daughter. I remember calling my team leader on the field who lived in another city and sharing like what's going on. And when I would call back home or call other people, other missionaries that were nearby, a lot of what happens again is this narrative of, well, wait the first three months. You're going through culture stress, things are elephanted. So it's a it's again the community gaslighting that happens, not in the intention to harm, but I think people, and rightly so, are assuming you are just going through the normal everyday struggles of trying to adapt cross-culturally and plus the marriage struggles, and we were language learning, and I'm parenting. So there were a lot of things circumstantially that I think again didn't ri wave the red flag uh for a long time. Yeah. And I didn't know what was a normal struggle. I just know he wasn't hitting me. Uh, and I'm suffering for the gospel and getting sanctified. Right. That's a trip to put on yourself and feel like you know, there's some holiness and being degraded, right? Yes. So I call my team leader, and she is she's an American, she's been overseas for 20 years and a more conservative denomination. And she is the first person, the first Christian to tell me, you know, you can leave if you want. And I was thinking, oh, we're called to the Philippines. I don't want to leave. Like, we'll just like get through these first three months. And she said, No, you can leave your marriage. Oh, yeah, I know. And she was the first person to speak permission that that was an option I could entertain. Because I was thinking, well, he didn't have adultery, like there, there's no adultery involved. When the reality is he he has been unfaithful in our marriage to our wedding vows from the very before we even got made those vows. Right. It doesn't have to be sexual with another woman. It can be, listen, I promise to love you, doesn't include hitting and all of those kinds of things. Those are that you're right. That's breaking the covenant in lots of different other ways. Right. How was it for you to hear those words? Yeah, I think I was one shocked, like, well, my initial thought was like, I don't know, she's done her theological work on it, because like the tradition I was coming from was so intellectual in that way. It's more like I just intellectually just scanned through it theologically before processing it as like, oh, I think this is something I really need to think about. But over the next two and a half years, while I was overseas, and things continued after the first three months of like it was it was a conversation my mind kept going back to. And I also, while we were overseas, I'm not even gonna talk about the string of counselors we saw while we were stateside marriage counselors, plus biblical counselors, all you know, that did not label my situation as domestic violence, but it was my personal counselor while we were overseas. Um, I was like, you know, I'm the crazy person, so I need to just get my own personal help. I'm done with the marriage counseling stuff. So it was seeing a counselor by myself without him and her doing inner child healing therapy with me that actually healed so much of how I ended I started responding to our conflict, like truly healing my brain, like by God's grace. And where I was coming from a place of more grounding, there are other factors too. Like there's a lot of miraculous things I can talk about, like honestly, like God showing up and Jesus showing up in my dreams and releasing me from my marriage. That there's a lot of charismatic things that kind of happened. And along with me just like diving into uh my own personal study of the words, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna go to seminary myself because I finished my language study. I'm just gonna dive deep because we haven't I haven't worshipped or been in any sort of community with in my heart language and English for so many years that I'm feeling hungry. So it was through my personal counseling, it was through me brain soaking and systematic theology of the gospel that Christ started wooing me out of my marriage. As I experienced healing from counseling and was responding to conflict differently, his intensity started to increase. Um, I wasn't dancing our familiar dance of conflict, and it was on full display where I could see for myself without saying, oh, well, that it was my fault, or I was the monster in that, or like full display what I've been experiencing. And so I started talking to my counselor more explicitly about it, and she then was saying, like, Chris, that's what you're describing to me as domestic violence. And despite no hands being laid on me, it's like, you know, all of the light bulbs from my schooling, my social work schooling, like lit up all at once, like, oh, it is like I see the pattern now. Like the fog just started clearing. There were things that were just starting to clear my vision, not fully. And I just, I just highly recommend to anybody who's walking with anyone describing verbal emotional abuse or distress. Because, you know, I just you have to kind of assume people in the church are going to minimize the way they talk about the the real suffering they're going through. It's not badly to complain a lot or to talk poorly about your husband. Because we even minimize it, right? And when you said that you finally went to individual counseling, you were so like ensconced in the Christian language and the the story that you are telling yourself to feel safe and called and worthy and all the things that you need to be when you're in ministry looked very different against the reality that you are dealing with on a daily basis. And so for you to sit with a therapist and unpack what's really underneath all of it, then that little girl gets strong and that woman finds her voice. That was when you were able to do the hard thing. I would have. Imagine, like, how long did your marriage last before you finally tell me about that part? Yes. So we were married for nine years. Uh we were divorced right before our 10th anniversary. And so while we were on the mission field, when light bulbs start going off and my eyes start getting a little bit clearer of what's going on, I actually did never made a plan to leave. I my my plan was, you know, I think I'm seeing this for what this is, but our entire livelihood is here. Yes. Yes. You sold everything and you went. Yes. Like no cars back at home. We don't, there is no home back at home. Like we have our parents' houses, we sold our vehicles. Our livelihoods, like our our wages are coming from being a missionary. Like people are supporting us. I like there's this whole other side of like what I call fishbowl living, where you're a support-based person, like minister, full-time minister, and you're sending out newsletters, but like work and personal life are so like blurry uh like as to what you share, because you're also you have prayer partners who want to be praying for you personally. So we're in this fishbowl on an island, literally. Yeah. We just finished language and we were about to move to another island to start our actual ministry assignment and get more isolated actually. Um, in that and I remember as things we were packing, we signed a lease for a house at the next island. The morning of I literally ordered packages to be sent. But by nighttime, not because I was planning on anything. There was a series of events where I just call it like the super holy spirit juice that just happened, like when crazy intense things like are about to take place. Like I wish I could hear God's voice in this way every day, but nope, there's just like this very specific season where I just I just felt him saying, like, pick up the phone and make the phone call. And in my head, I was planning on no, when we do furlough next year, then we'll go home and then I'll like work it all out then because like logistically, there's no way we can there's we'd be getting on an airplane to what? Like, there's no backup plan, there's no time to like I wanted to plan it all. And so I made the phone call to the elders of our sending church, and the person who picked up the phone were close mentors of ours, um, and they actually mentored us in our marriage, um, but truly trusted friends. Well, I didn't know this, but when we left for the Philippines, they took um specific classes on how to counsel abusive marriages while we were already gone, and they were writing our names in the margins and realizing how they gave us poor counsel. Wow. So I didn't know all of this, but I will say the reason I called them was because the calls I made to them prior over the years of us being on the field, I felt a shift in their counsel and I felt safety that I was being heard, that my pain was being validated. And they actually flew to us. And what they said was just like a prayer visit to check in on us. It was really to check in on me. Um, I was pregnant with my second daughter at the time. And so when I called home and said, I think we're gonna, I think we need to go home, he said, I've been waiting for your phone call and we're ready for you. We have places for you. So I just got goosebumps. You know, I just I talked to a friend recently and she said, My favorite stories in the Bible are the ones where it's like suddenly an angel appeared. Suddenly God changed all my circumstances. Like you wanted to plan your way out of this predicament, and God just went, You forget your plans. Yes, I've got a bigger one. And that is the best and scariest place to be in the whole world. Yeah, yeah. I always say, I think I saw more miracles leaving the field than I did like while we were actually off the field. Yes, totally. CJ, what are your tears about? Um, I don't know. It's kind of hard. I'm glad you guys are like leading this because she's family. And so and what's funny is I just heard this. Like she was at my house for a week. We had a week-long podcast session where I was just listening to her story and like kind of like absorbing it. So um, yeah, and I heard that part, and it didn't hit me then, but now for some reason, when you're verbalizing it now, it's just like um that couple that realized and made and corrected I I just love that couple, whoever they are. I love them too. There needs to be, I mean, there are regularly people in our lives that just show up in ways that we I'm always surprised who shows up and who doesn't. And um, thank God for that couple. Yeah. Um yeah, they actually allowed him to stay in their attic for about six months when we came back stateside. Um, I was me and the girls were staying. Was he locked? I mean, was there like every time they wanted to lock some food in there every now and then? Yeah, they helped pave the way coming back. They offered a house, a car, and yeah, they really made the way for you to really do it. Yeah. And I know you're you're talking about all this, like very I don't want to say casually, but it's clear you've processed a lot of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But the day the day in, day out, the burdens that we carry, the ways that we are very um, I can't speak for you, but I can speak for myself. I could put it, I could put on a show. I could put on a happy face and um be just as guilty as the community that was gaslighting me because I didn't want to believe it. I didn't want to believe that this is how things were unraveling for me. Yeah. And my kids, you know, and and then you hear the well, wouldn't you just do anything for your kids? And it's like, yeah, and I am. Thank you very much, you know. Yeah, it is um, it is interesting how I've been an expert at masking. Yes, because of survival, yes, and position-wise, like I've been in a position, in a fishbowl position for so long that masking was also keeping us afloat. Yeah, I will say the bigger grief for me wasn't leaving him. Like that was honestly, I felt myself breathe as soon as we separated. Like, I was like, like, I'm breathing and complete peace over that. There was never like a oh, am I making the right thing? No, like this is and God just confirmed with so many crazy things, like the way he provided a vehicle, the ways that like the toys that my girls had to leave behind, like were waiting for us uh in the basement, like the exact same toys, like they just happened to be in the basement we were moving into for nine months, like just things like that that God just like not just cared and tended to my heart, but the hearts of my girls in this process because the bigger grief was leaving the field, it was leaving our community, yes, it was leaving a culture that we worked so hard to wholeheartedly embrace and it was leaving a vision that I had before this person even entered my life. Yeah, you'd been dreaming about that for a long time. Yeah, yeah. That helps me so much because something that I'm learning in this season is that two things can be true at once. And I have not thought about it until this moment that when I lost my community, people who I had served for, with, by for 15 years, that it didn't change the work that was done, right? That was still God doing that work, that wasn't me and my husband at the time. And the grief of that has been something that's been harder for me to work through than the grief of my marriage ending, because sorry, I didn't expect to be this emotional being able to look back and still know that that was God's work, that wasn't our work, and that the church was going to be okay and go on regardless of who is in leadership, because God's at the helm. Like there's actually something super freeing about that for all the ways I tried to control and have every perfect Christmas card and support letter. Like at the end of the day, God was still at work and he is still at work. And I think that when we talk about what hurt and what helped and where are you headed, yeah I I just feel like you're kind of capturing all of that in this conversation and things that you're probably gonna think about tonight when you go to sleep, like, oh, and then there was that really cool thing that I didn't remember, right? Yes. One of the things that I think the church sometimes, or at least us Christ followers, sometimes when things get hard, we jump right to forgiveness. Like, oh, can you just forgive him? And I and I think that you know, we sometimes get confused about forgiveness and proximity that you know, like sometimes we need to forget. Well, I think all the time we need to forgive, but sometimes that means from a distance. Like I forgive you, I just don't want to be around you and you don't have access to my life and my heart and my whatever. And um and I think sometimes you know the simplicity that which we think about hard things, you know, this is a very complex hard thing that you did for a very, very long time in heroic ways. And for people to jump to like, hey, you should forgive them or try again or whatever. And and I think that sometimes, and I don't know if you've had that experience, um, based on your laughing, I think you probably have, but but what we need to give people permission for is hey, uh let work with God about forgiving, but don't get back into it. Don't get, you know, don't re-up for more abuse or stuff. And so did you ever have people kind of jumping to that and and kind of working, leveraging towards that? Yeah, so that was something I was really nervous. Like I knew the elders of our church matured and were getting equipped while we were gone in ways that they weren't years before, uh, and how they counseled us. So I really am just, I want to just say, like, yes, I experienced church hurt, and I saw the correction happening and in imperfect ways, but movement and progress towards like walking well. It was the congregation that I was kind of nervous about because before we left, we were leaders of the church. Um, and then we left as the missionaries, whatever, and came back, and now he's in a church discipline process when we arrived back, and it's a more um, I'll say, culturally conservative congregation with more like traditional roles and views of uh gender roles and all of those things. And so I was nervous that I was going to get a lot more of that, like, well, why don't you forgive? And and people confuse forgiveness and reconciliation, those are two different things. Right, right, exactly. So glad you said that. Yeah, make that distinction for us, please. Forgiveness is what we are commanded to do, and it's not something we can strive for, it's the work that we ask God to do in us for someone else. Like we ask God to do the work of forgiveness in us and in our and how we are yeah, forgiving those who have harmed us. Reconciliation is the process where you are starting to take steps of restoration of relationships and giving access to our to relationship and building trust, like reconciliation requires trust. But if that trust isn't there, or this per this party isn't even acknowledging how they have sinned, you can still forgive and have God do that work in you, but you are not required to reconcile, and yet you can still be considered a peacemaker in that for as far as you can make peace. So that is so good. So good. Did you feel accepted by your community after the fallout, or did you feel I used the word with CJ last time? Uh I felt like I had the plague anytime I was around people that we had went to church with. Did you feel that, or did you feel so could you tell your story? Could you be honest, or did you have to kind of modify it? So, to give you an idea of my context, our church had like 115 people in it. Like, so everybody, like the church discipline process, all of that, it was sharing explicitly what was going on and what has been going on for so long. And I will say the elders did well in gatekeeping or having, I'd say gatekeeping the narrative, and that because it was coming from leadership and the narrative that they were sharing, it was an advocacy for healing and restoration for both of us, and that would look like separately. That I think helped like guide the congregation and how to think about it because you know, people are asking questions and they're trying to figure out, but like I think the elders did such a good job in how they shared what was going on, and they made the distinction that this process, this discipline process, has nothing to do with whether or not our marriage is gonna stay together, and they're not pressuring me or counseling me to reconcile or divorce or anything. That's my decision. That's so they did really well in that, and this whole process is holding this other person accountable um and keeping these other people safe. So they did really well in that. Wow, that's really good, right? Really good, really good. That's awesome. Hey, um, I don't know if I'm jumping too far ahead, but um you went through hell. And um and yet what I see in front of me on our screen, and our listeners won't be able to see this, is a woman who has some joy. And so how how'd you get there? Uh part of this is me coming off of a high right now. I took my girls back to the Philippines and Indonesia and Malaysia for a month. Wow. She went on 12 flights in like three weeks or four weeks. It was insane. That's fantastic. Yeah, with my six-year-old and three-year-old. It was oh wait, you just you just went from really great guest to a saint. We're gonna call you saint right now. You think a three-year-old on 12 flights because there is some sainthood attached to that. Yeah, yeah. There were moments I was questioning, like, is this three-year-old here to sanctify me or destroy me? I do not remember. Yeah, no, so and we called it the Asia Joy. Well, I did call it the Asia Joy Tour. It was really the Asia Joy marathon that we went on. Um, and it came from a place where I my work was requiring me to go uh for several reasons to lead actually workshops on training cross-cultural missionaries how to expand their emotional resilience and capacity and how that happens truly through practices of joy. And so a lot of my work is helping uh people go through a curriculum or doing workshops and teaching them like this is how God created our brains, and like the joy center of our brain has the capacity to grow when we are, you know, practicing these things. And so we talk about me and my girls talk about microjoys a lot, like how we're always looking for the micro joys, and no matter what the circumstances are, and so I think through healing and the community God has brought around us in the last two years, and honestly, every aspect of my identity except for motherhood being stripped from me. Yes. Like when you're like stripped bare and there's nothing left, and it's just like literally you and Jesus in the room. It's like, okay, I have lost everything, my home, and I'm realizing I'm home. Like I am home no matter where I am, and my family isn't broken, it is totally complete, you know. Christ is here, like his presence has become so vividly real to me since all these things, and there's still the parrot we call we we talk about yay ducks and yuck ducks. Heidi was kind of talking about the like having both, like you have the yay ducks of the things that make you happy and like excited and joyful, and then the yuck ducks and like the things that are really hard and grievous, and when you hold them together, you have a paradox, a paradox, yeah, I love it. We use that a lot when we're talking to our cross-cultural because like that is life, right? And like to make room of like we need to grieve, and we can still have joy, and it's not against each other. So that's great. You know, I have a quote that I love that says that a person can go 40 days without food, seven days without water, but not a minute without hope. And I just see you having so much hope, and I just am really excited right now that the people listening to this, you're gonna give so many people so much hope to go uh through a hard time. And and you know, in Romans 8, where it says that God can work all things together for good. That sometimes we think that means everything's gonna be good, and I don't think it means that. I think it means that in everything, some good can come from it, and I hear the good coming from it, and even you helping other people, and just the amount of hope that you're giving me and giving other people. I'm just so thankful that you're sharing your story today. Yeah, me too. Oh that was beautiful, and Heidi went through a roller coaster. I did. Thank you. This was really rich and really, you know, opened my eyes and also I think gives people some relatable stuff, but also I I hope that people that are in ministry and that are you know elders and church leaders and pastors will hear that we have to treat real things in real ways, and sometimes that's really hard. And if you don't know how to do it, find someone who does. And if you can't find anyone who does, keep looking because people know how to deal with these things. And we should not uh excuse people because they're in the church or excuse people because they're really good people or love Jesus, whatever. Um but but thank you so much for sharing your story, and I am honored that you are here today, and I am so thankful for this. I think he wrapped up all the thank you. But you know, I love you. Yeah, I'm thankful that you you shared it with me, and we didn't know, our family didn't know. And um after your high in the Philippines, she's she spent a week with us, and it was just such a it was a lot of information, but also so happy to see you on the other side of it. Seriously. And I I could see also um like she would always read her Bible, even with a kid screaming and talking to her, she's reading her Bible, she's doing her thing, and so I I really appreciate you sharing today. So thanks for coming. Kui I mean his older brother, by the way. That's what you call it. I knew that. I knew that okay, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. All right, well, that was Grace's story. Thank you so much for talking with us. Um, yeah, you we usually leave with something pretty light that was very heavy. I mean, me and me and Heidi were shedding tears. But um, you got any stories for us, something you can share? Yeah, so I found that I have a co-mother um helping me with my children, uh and her name is the Tooth Fairy, and she likes just way better, like she's way more affected. Then any my children do not fear me very well. And I, my youngest, my three-year-old, she is what I call my spicy one. Her will is so strong. And one day, after my oldest lost a tooth, and I'm you know tucking it into under her pillow, and my three-year-old is laying there with her in bed, and I'm saying, okay, so go to sleep because the tooth fairy is gonna come. And suddenly my three-year-old, who I truly don't think has fear of anything, starts to like cry. And I'm like, what's wrong? And she's like, I don't want the tooth fairy to come into my room and and go under the pillow. Yeah, the the week you were with me, I was like, Whoa, who is this tooth fairy? Yes, that's not the tooth fairy I told my kids. Yeah, and um, it's like I have to admit, like, I don't do Santa Claus or things like because I'm trying to like help my children know like what is truthful. The tooth fairy has been so effective lately. Like, bedtime when it's rough and she's fighting bedtime. My three-year-old, they're like, You gotta go to bed because the tooth fairy is gonna start buzzing around soon. And she also helps us at dinner time, like if she's not eating her vegetables. I'm like, you have to eat your vegetables so your teeth are strong, otherwise, she's gonna come early and she's gonna get your teeth. So I'm like, this tooth fairy is violent. Okay, Grace, I gotta tell you, I'm 66, almost 6'7, and uh and I will tell you, you're the first person I've ever met that used the tooth fairy as an enforcer. Yeah, like that is the baller move right there. That is rough. I love it. I'm into it. When my oldest son lost his first tooth, he left it under his pillow with a note for the tooth fairy, and we were broke. But he had a piggy bank in his room, and so I basically stole from his piggy bank to leave for the tooth, and all he had was I think it was like a $10 or $20 bill. And so, like the precedent that was set was that he was gonna get $20 for a lost tooth. He didn't even know it was his own money. Oh that's the kind of corruption. We'll be unpacking that in therapy when he needs that is gonna need some help. The lessons you learned from faith rehab. Steve, hey, get us out of this before we leave. And even though CJ had both parents that were Filipino, um, we would love for you to teach us um some Tagalog, like maybe uh be blast is our typical sign-off, or maybe you can tell us goodbye or CJ Shape Up or something. What do you got for us? Um, so typically when we say goodbye, uh as someone's leaving their house, they'll say ingatka, inatka, and that means like be careful, like be careful or take care, be safe. Yeah. Inatka. Am I called? I-n-g-a-t. Inata Inat Inata Pinata, it's not pinata, Heidi. That's what we're doing. That's just my northern accent, CJ. Pinata. On the catal three, we'll sign off with that. One, two, three. That's good. Okay, okay.