Ep. 8 - Truls Neal - You're Not Black Enough: Church, Race & Grace

On this episode of Faith Rehab Podcast we get to hear from Truls Neal, a career Probation Officer, manager, and Director. He is an accomplished leader, a husband, a father, and a friend. He is the son of a white Norwegian mother and an African American Military father. He has a twin, a wife, and two daughters. When people hear his name and hear that his mother is Norwegian, they expect him to be a blond-haired, blue-eyed man. Truls is more melanated than that and describes himself as “coffee with a little bit of cream” in his complexion. He also reminds us that “None of us are what people expect people to be.” So true!

We follow how his ethnic and racial makeup have affected him from the restrictions of where he could live as a child, through his poor treatment in churches. Through his journey he will remind us of God’s intent in dealing with those that are different from us: “I don't want to be about race relations. I want to be about grace relations because I think that's what Jesus calls me to.”

In his grace, he teaches all of us what it means to be a child of God.

He also tells us about his life mission, “Build community.”

We think we can all learn something more about that; and wouldn’t we all be better off if we were building community.

Faith Rehab is a podcast about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

We create a safe space for honest conversations about spiritual disappointment, doubt, and the process of finding hope again—without pretending or having all the answers.

Co-hosts: Steve McNitt, Heidi Brandt & CJ Mateo
 Produced by: CJ Mateo

Contact us at Faithrehabpodcast@gmail.com
— we’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Today on Faith Rehead Podcast, we're going to interview my longest best friend of 50 years, Truuls Neil.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Trolls is cool. And you're going to listen to a lot about racism in church.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

And I learned a new prank that I'm going to start using when people get married.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

That's so good. Yes. Keep listening.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome everybody to Faith Rehab. This has been such a fun interview that we did today, but this is a place where we can come and talk about church hurt and the things that have helped and where we're headed. I am Heidi, and I call myself the mother of dragons because I have four sons, and I just got my 21st tattoo of four dragons down my arm. Oh, nice. My dad doesn't like it. He's like, you're running out of real estate. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

That's cool. Okay, dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Hey, I'm CJ. My name is uh aka BMI Too High. But I met Heidi's cousin. He she visited Sacramento and she said, You need to stop using that name, BMI Too High. Because when she saw me, you could see it in her eyes. She expected some big bowling ball of a guy. And I was like, that's right. I'm kind of lying to our listeners, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

So CJ looks good.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

That's funny. Thanks, April.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

And I'm Steve, and I am a therapist, but I am not your therapist. And when I was in high school, I went to summer camp and I won the watermelon seed spitting contest. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Like they had a contest. Come up here and spit a watermelon seed as far as you can. And I went farther. I am more full of hot air than anyone else at that camp. I think that's what that means. Anyway, today is going to be a great episode. We're going to uh interview my friend Trules and stay tuned because we have a lot of really cool, interesting things to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Add it up.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Well, this week's episode is a thrill for me because I get to introduce you guys and the world to my friend Truels Neil. Hi, Truels. Hello, everybody.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Good to see you all. Nice to see you. Hi to CJ.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

You're hearing it correctly. It's Truels, T-R-U-L-S. And I've known Truels a really long time, and for that whole time, he's told me that's a very common name in Norway. I've never seen it in a Norway baby book, nor have I ever met anybody from Norway named Truols except for my guy Truels Neil. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I want to tell you guys that Truels not only uh, despite being my friend, he has done some really great things with his life. He's one of the most gracious people I know. He's one of the most honest and well-thought people I know, but he's been the associate director of the Oregon Food Bank in the whole state of Oregon, but it's housed in Portland. He's been a technical advisor to justice system partners, where he's helped other counties help with their justice system. He was um for Multnomah County, which is sort of the Portland and surrounding areas in Oregon, which is the largest county in all of Oregon. He's been uh district manager, division director, deputy director, and he was the executive director um for that whole shebang. So if you've been on probation or parole in that county, you may have heard of Truels Neal. He also has done lots of other things in probation. He's actually been on probation for about 26 years. Um, he's been a field services manager. He was he worked beginning with uh youth, and um Truels and I actually worked together for a very short stint. It seemed like forever to the ones around us, but we worked together. I was teaching high school and he was uh um it was called a campus aid, campus monitor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Basically the guy who walks around with a walkie-talkie and says, get to class, put out that cigarette, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Put out that cigarette.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah, he uh he has done some other things in that job that we may or may not get to today. Um, he has a Bachelor of Arts uh in sociology from California State University, San Martin, the Go Coyotes, where I also got my master's degree. Trules and I graduated on the same day, same place, had our own graduation party. Uh, he's won the pre-doctoral scholarship. He's been elected president of the sociology club. He's been the uh certified parole and probation officer, he was a certified uh supervisor. Um, Trouls, that's impressive, man.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah. I feel like I have done nothing seriously the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

I I will tell our audience and you guys that Truels and I met when we were in high school. We went to different high schools, and we were both part of a nationwide youth organization that had clubs at different schools, and we met then, and then we were leading clubs and had lots of interactions together. And then we um then you guys hit the club, and then we hit the club, and then we uh we worked together a little bit, and when Trules was getting married, I was best man at his wedding. Oh isn't that sweet? I'll tell you a story at the end about how I failed him as a best man. But yes, it was so sad. But uh also he was at my wedding, and uh he has been my closest friend, I think, for 50 years. Wow. And um, and that should tell you all you need to know about how much grace he has in his life because it ain't easy being friends with Steve McNeil.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

You guys go on these bro vacations that I want to somehow get into. They're called mancations.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yes, not brocation, mancation. I forgot. Voice to man. Yeah, we've what have we done on our mancations, trolls? Give us a little ride.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

We went to the NCAA basketball tournament in Anaheim, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

We did.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

We've been to Arizona to Diamondback Stadium, also watched the Dodgers during spring baseball. Uh, we went to Kansas City recently, yep, and went to a Kansas City Royals game and did a great tour of the Negro uh Baseball Hall of Fame, and uh that was great. Had a good time.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

The goal is not so much to go somewhere, it's just to go hang out and be together.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

So we need new people to make fun of, so we have to keep going to different cities.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

You gotta come to Milwaukee, eh? Come to a brewer's season. You gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, it's Heidi is a seasoned ticket holder for the Milwaukee Brewers.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

I thought you were in Chicago, Heidi. You're in Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I'm north of Chicago. I'm in Illinois, right between Milwaukee and Chicago. And I'm a huge fan of Milwaukee and will live there one day. So until then, I just spend my money there. Go to the game. Support the community. I don't want to like hurt anyone's feelings on this uh podcast.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

That kind of hate is not tolerated here, Heidi.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Well, and you know, let's talk playoffs, not not uh you know the season.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Was that the same day that the Dodgers got their World Series rings? I don't know. Hey, um Trolls, uh, we could just talk all day. I mean, this would be like a six-hour podcast. People would love it, I promise you, because we have entertaining stories. But Trools, let's get into your story. You guys you know, this podcast is about church hurt, but it's also really sort of about life stories. Yeah, you have a very interesting origin story that people hear the name Truels, and I've already told them you're Norwegian, and so I'm assuming they're picturing some blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy. And so tell tell us your story.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yeah, it's interesting you say that, Steve, because uh one of the things that is amusing to me is when I'm on the phone with somebody who's never met me, and they go, Truels, well, that's a very interesting name. What kind of name is that? And I'll say, Well, it's Norwegian. Oh, you Norwegian? Yeah, actually, I was born in Norway. Came over here when I was about two years old, and my mother's Norwegian, and they go, Oh, great. Then I'll see them in person and they see the six foot three black man, they're like, huh? It's a little incongruent there. Uh, so I always get I get a kick out of that kind of not to trick people, but just kind of the irony of, you know, I'm not what you expect. None of us are what people expect people to be.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Just real quick, because when I first met you at Steve's 40th last week, let's re let's review.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

I'm not 40, I'm about to be six, seven. But I had a 40th wedding anniversary party.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Anniversary. And Trolls flew in and he approached me and said, CJ, I said, Hey, and he said, Remember me? And in my mind, I was like, Oh no, I don't know this face. And he just stared at me for the longest time and said, No, you don't remember me? Come on, man, come on. And then he just messed with me. He's like, No, I listened to your podcast. I know you, you don't know me. I'm truly. I was like, Oh, this guy.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

I knew CJ could take it, so thanks. Yeah, so uh I was born in Norway, I have a twin brother, his name is Pear. And um, we did come over to the United States when we were two. My mom and dad weren't married at the time that we were born, and my mom brought us to the United States to be with my dad, uh, had green cards uh because we weren't legal citizens.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Well, at that point, by the way, Troulz's green card picture is one of the great child pictures of all time. And he swears he lost it, but I hope we find it someday.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

It's just a picture of a little crying baby. And um, so my parents, uh, my dad was stationed in uh Washington DC at Air Force Base. I think it was Andrew's Air Force Base, because they were a mixed marriage, black and white, they couldn't live in Virginia or Maryland legally. I'm not sure how much they were enforcing it at the time, but my parents didn't want to take any chances. They had a lot of uh run-ins with racism that I had never seen and I thankfully didn't have to deal with. We grew up moving around quite a bit. My dad liked to take uh assignments back in Europe because he felt more comfortable in Europe. So we spent some time in Germany on an Air Force base there, spent a lot of summers going back up to Norway to see my grandmother and grandfather and aunts and uncles there. So I was very close, and I still am very close to my Norwegian family.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Trolls, I don't think I know this answer, but when you're in Norway, like how many black people are there?

SPEAKER_04 11:44

Well, there has been an influx of black folks. There's been a lot of um immigration there from uh Somalia, especially, okay, which has created some issues within that country, not to the degree we've seen here, but there there is some pushback, I think, in all of Europe with some immigration issues. But I noticed when I was on a train a few years ago, I got some side-eye looks from people and I was like they thought I might be an immigrant or something. But anyway, I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic school, and my brother and I primarily went to Catholic school because uh my when we were going to public school in Virginia, um we landed in Virginia uh probably when we're about second grade. And my brother and I were getting beat up almost daily. The biggest issue for us was dealing with the the other black kids in the community uh in our in our apartment complex. They didn't like the fact that my mom was white and they thought we were too white in terms of how we behaved, how we talked, and how we carried ourselves. That became a theme, I think, for the rest of my growing up life, that some of my struggle was with other black people who thought I wasn't um black enough or was trying to be white, those kinds of things. It was kind of that struggle between being biracial for me. We ended up going to a Catholic church, going to Catholic school in Virginia, and uh I remember even as a young person, 10, 11 years old, really paying attention to the Bible, paying attention to the homilies that the priest would give. And about 11 years old, I remember distinctly thinking, I don't know, I'm not buying this stuff. I I'm not sure this religion stuff is true. And questioning why Christianity, why not Buddhism, why not Hinduism, why not this? Why are they wrong? And I it just didn't it didn't work for me. So I did I stopped going to church about that time and went into public school. We moved to California when we were about 11. My dad retired from the Air Force, and I spent the rest of my growing up years in Riverside, California.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Can I pause for a second? I have a question to ask because I didn't know you were a twin.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

My dad is an identical twin.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Oh no, I'm a I'm a fraternal twin. Okay. An interesting thing about my brother and I is we have very different. I don't know if you've ever done this with your family. We sit down and you talk about growing up, yeah, and the and you realize they perceive things very differently than I did. Their experience was unique to them, and my experience was unique to me. An example of this is my best friend growing up, uh, before I met Steve, was a guy named Jeff Spencer. Jeff was blonde-haired, blue-eyed. He was about 12, 13. I was about the same age. And we used to go everywhere together. And uh my we would go places with my mom, and my mom's blonde-haired, blue-eyed, right? And we'd walk into these stores and I'd be going, hey mom! And Jeff would be going, Jeff would say, Mrs. Neil, and people would what's going on here? You know, what's going on here? What why is that black kid calling, you know, that kid's mom, mom?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

But my brother, when I told that story to my brother a few years ago, he said, Oh, that used to embarrass me. Because I I hated that when people would notice that, you know. So it was a different experience.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

So because that was my my question was gonna be how like how did having a twin impact your life experiences? Because my my dad and his twin, I I think because they had each other, it made things a lot easier when they were confronted with any kind of conflict or struggle. And so I wondered like if having a kind of a partner in crime, it was a little bit more manageable because you were navigating it together, but it sounds like you had two different experiences.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Well, and to and because I think we were for fraternal twins, because I've known other twins that were identical, they tended to be more in line emotionally, maybe, or yeah, psychologically. But my brother and I are very, very different and had a lot of conflict growing up and always at each other, fighting, arguing. And some of that was because of our family, too, to be honest. I knew we live we had a somewhat dysfunctional family with alcoholism and other things going on. And we experienced those things differently. When what I mentioned my friend Jeff, I when the dysfunction was happening in my family, I was at Jeff's house and his family was pretty well put together. I'd go on vacation with Jeff's family. I had a way of just coping by escaping.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

So and Pear was right there. He dealt with a lot of stuff, and uh we're very close today. Uh, he actually moved to Portland uh uh uh not too long after we moved here. We are good friends uh today. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

That's great. Trolles, talk a little bit more about how you know. So the people that can't see you, Troles is uh six foot three, he wears size 14 shoes. I know that from his wedding. I I've heard mixed people say I could pass as African American, I could pass as Puerto Rican, I could pass what I can't pass for is white. And Troles is probably would you say caramel color latte? What would you latte?

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Kind of like something delicious.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yes, yes, coffee with a little bit of cream. A little bit of cream, not quite half and half. But talk about how that's affected your growing up life, your church life. Take us where you want.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

My parents were pretty, though we had some dysfunction in the family, they were good about issues of race and making sure that we were exposed to all kinds of different people. We had people come over to our house that were black, white, all Hispanic, didn't, you know, it was a very mixed uh community that we were a part of. One of the things that was always bothered me, especially about the things you would see in church, Catholic Church, Protestant Church, was the images. And the images of a white Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes always just didn't work for me. Not because I wanted Jesus to quote be black or anything like that, but I wanted a more true depiction of what somebody from the Middle East would look like.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

He was the one and only white guy in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Yes. And and I uh I became a Christian when I was about 15, uh, through that national youth organization to be unnamed, uh, at a camp in Colorado. And um it was at that point in my faith journey that I would say I gave my life to Jesus and started a relationship with Christ that was meaningful to me and life-changing. And when I came back home, I stayed involved with that youth organization, but I was reluctant to go to church. My youth leader in that unnamed youth group was involved in a local evangelical church and encouraged me to go with him. And he became the youth pastor. I became his somewhat assistant in an unpaid role. And um we did a lot of good youth ministry in that church. At some point that youth pastor left that church and there was a vacancy for the youth pastor position. And the kids in the youth group and the other volunteers in the youth group assumed that, well, Trules is going to be the the next youth pastor. It's just normal that he would be because he's been here, he's working with us. And I I think they believed I was doing a good job.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

And did you want to be?

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Yeah, at the point at that point I wanted to be the youth pastor and uh had good connections with those with those youth. Then um they asked a couple other people to take the job who didn't take it. And then finally, the uh I don't remember what the position was, but somebody in the church that was in charge of hiring called me in for an interview. And I went in for the interview and um he said, Yeah, we want to offer you the job. And and I I kind of said, Well, what was I I was kind of surprised it took this long to get to me. I mean, I was kind of honest about that. And I said, Well, what was the holdup? And he says, Well, we had some people on our church board, uh, I think it was like a deacon board or I'm not sure what the exact name was, but it was you know a governing uh body of the church. Uh they had concerns about uh having a black person as the youth pastor. And I turned to the to the gentleman and said, You know what, I can't take the job. And he says, Why not? I said, Well, if race was a reason to be considered in hiring me, I don't feel good about that. It shouldn't even have been a question in my mind if it's if it's about my faith, about what I believe, or I mean, I didn't tell him that, I'm telling you that. Or some other character thing, but race as a as an issue of um whether you should hire me would be troubling. But also, I remember being at that youth organization uh where I became a Christian, being asked to come back. Uh we had this thing where they would have uh uh what they called a work crew and summer staff, and um to be on work crew you had to apply and read these books and fill out application. So I did all that stuff and I was selected. And I got to go to back to this camp to work there for a month. And uh the person who was in charge of the work crew told me, I said, you know, really glad to have been asked to do this. This was some point in in the uh month I was there, and um he told me, you know, you were only selected. Because you're black.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Whoa.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

And it that just really uh it really hurt. I was like 16, 17 at the time, and coming from an adult figure that I respected, it just really made me feel devalued, like, wow, only because I was black? You just needed one of us. And that theme, that theme followed me into my, especially into my work life, where I was always, you know, to be honest, I was always questioning, are they hiring me because I'm black? Are they promoting me because they need one that they can check off? Not necessarily from my skills or my ability to to work with people. And that that was uh that was a that was that's been a hard thing for me to deal with in a in a professional sense, but in the church as well, being involved with churches. Steve and I were in a church together in in Riverside, California, and um it was a small church, maybe a hundred or so people. Uh, I remember we would have these gatherings uh to get together and talk to one another and share. It was a church that had many different people in it. We had one couple that was Filipino and white, another couple that was Hispanic and white, and we had several uh Hispanic and white couples, and then we had Robin and I, and uh we were sitting around in a big circle and people were sharing, and one of the people said, Trules and Robin, we have a question for you. How does it feel to be the only interracial couple or biracial couple in in our church? And I said, I don't think we are. But it was just that perception that black and white is is is much more perceived as different than maybe Hispanic and white or Filipino white or or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

I was with you one time at a church gathering, maybe similar to that, or maybe it was a just a small group or something where somebody said something, and then the response was, well, Trules doesn't count. He's not even black.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

And I asked you about it later, like, what does that mean? And why do people say that? By the way, if you're a listener, don't ever say that to somebody. It's like it's like just stop it today. But what was that like to hear those things in the church?

SPEAKER_04 24:31

What I've come to understand is that when someone says that they have a probably a limited experience with black people and see them more one-dimensionally. They're not what they see on TV or this image they have of a black person. Yeah. And if you know black people, and I know quite a few, there's a diversity uh amongst black people. Just like I'm sure there's a diversity in the Filipino community. Uh, there's a diversity in the white community of people who have think differently, who come from different social strata. So I think that's just uh from my point of view, I look at it as they just don't, they don't know any better and they're ignorant to those kinds of things. And I've heard that, I mean, it's not just uh um white people I've heard that from. I've heard that, and I mentioned this earlier, I've heard that from black people. Um, I remember when I worked at Arlington High School with Steve, um, I had a black kid who he and I used to get into it. I mean, I was there monitoring, trying to keep kids in line, and he and I would uh always have these, I wouldn't call them confrontations, but you know, verbal exchanges. And he would say, How come you talk? How come you talk white? And I would say finally I came up with a good comeback when he said it. And I said, you know, so this let me get this right. To speak good English is to be white. Is that what you're saying? And um he kind of backed off.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

But um This is my professional world is diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. That's like where I exist. And so I'm really thankful that you're sharing your story. And what it's making me realize is that when we've interviewed other people on this show, regardless of their background, whether they're part of the LGBTQ community, whether they're a person who's biracial or black, it's other people telling them who their identity is.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

And it's like if I met Steve and Steve's like, please don't call me Steven, like, doesn't Steve get to decide who it is that like how he wants to be called and how he identifies? And to grow up with that, it there would just be such a um like dissonance between how you're trying to experience the world and how you're perceived and being told how you have to fit in. That would just be really a hard thing to manage. And so I really appreciate you sharing your experiences because it's unique, but I think it also resonates with a lot of people who are biracial and a part of the black community. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Yeah. I think for my wife is white, and um, we've been married almost 40 years as well, and have two daughters, uh, 32 and 30. And we have been very intentional about seeking out diverse communities. Um we chose to live in Portland, in the what we call Northeast Portland, uh, which has a higher concentration of people of color. Portland doesn't have, quote, a black neighborhood, but it has a neighborhood that is more um more diverse. And that was important to us. It was important to us that we chose churches that were diverse. There was a point in Rob and I's married life where we both came to the same conclusion about church, somewhat independently, but at the same time, uh, we decided to return to the Catholic Church. And I tell people with some some of my I got a little, we got some pushback from some family members and other people who felt like, why go back the Catholic Church? What Rob and I would say is for us, it wasn't that the Catholic Church was right, like there was one right Christian church to belong to. It's what was right for us. And I feel strongly that uh people need to um worship where they can best connect to God. And that may be for some people at a Baptist church or at an episcopal church or whatever that may be. For us, it was the Catholic Church. And one of the things that was that helped us, because we live in a diverse community in in Portland, most Catholics, not all, and it's not as structurally rigid as it used to be, but most Catholics go to their local parish. So they don't typically go to a church because, you know, of the pastor or the programs or this or that. It's more like, hey, this is our our um, this is in our neighborhood, we're in this parish, this is where we go. And when we went back to the Catholic Church, that's the parish in our in our community, it was very, very diverse and was good for, we felt it was good for our kids and and good for us.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

And um, so I want to make a a point of something that you have taught me over the years, Trolls. It's maybe the only thing you've taught me.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

It wasn't a jump shot.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

No, it wasn't that. It might have been a left-handed backhand from tennis, but but one of the things that I didn't realize, I grew up in a in an area I uh that was mostly white, but my high school was, you know, whites were only about a third. So I, you know, there was a lot of Latino, a lot of African American, some Asian, and I thought that was normal. Like I thought everybody had relationships like that. And what Trules has taught me, most of the HR problems he's had, and he's worked his way up in a very, very big, you know, 700 plus employee kind of place, that um most of the the HR complaints have been people who don't know how to talk to other cultures. And one of the things that I will say, I'm an old white guy, I'm about to be six, seven. Um, but one of the things that I realize is part of the privilege and also a curse, is that if I'm around mostly white people, then somebody of color may or may not stand out. But to a person of color walking into a predominantly white area, they're gonna be counting how many other people of color. And I've had this reverse a couple of times. Uh, when I I worked um as a volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and I was on the family selection committee. So I went to all these different churches. And if I was the only white guy in the church, I knew it. Yeah. And I was looking for other people that look like me. And I think that CJ, you and Trulles maybe have some uh can argue with this a little bit, but also that for people of color, they're always looking for people that might look like me, sound like me, talk like me. But for those of us that are white and in a white majority place, we need to be more aware of let's be the first to walk across the room and make people feel comfortable. Let's let's do some things that will help folks understand I I'm a safe person and that you belong. And I don't know how you guys feel about that, but I I just feel like it's so important to make people feel welcome and belong.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

In my experience, I'm Filipino. If I ever said I don't think I've said that before, but um one time I took my my black friend that was in my crew. We went on a mission trip to the Philippines, and we were just walking around the neighborhood, and I've never heard so many N-words spoken directly at my friend. Wow, and I was just getting mad for him, right? And I was like, man, can you believe these guys? And he was like, bro, I'm the first black guy they've ever seen.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

And this kind of trend like translates to immigrants here. They take this homogeneous community where all they saw was brown Filipino, and they actually make it racial there too. There's dark-skinned Filipino, light-skinned Filipino, and they fight each other, right? Yeah, but they bring it here and they were colonized by light-skinned Spaniards, Americans, stuff like that. So they become adjacent to whites and they kind of cling on that, and subconsciously being racist to other races because they'd never seen them before. My grandma was one of them, where I brought that same friend, slept over at my house all the time. And at first, you know, she had an issue. But when he when she learned about his character and stuff, he kind of broke down the walls. But America's made up of so many different cultures who've only seen one race their entire existence, and then come here and they don't know how to communicate and they don't know how to act to write or whatever. So it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Along those same lines, and Charles, you can tell me the number, but it's a ridiculous number of people, white people, that don't have any black friends or people of color. And it's like 78 or 80 percent or something like that. Of course, you're not gonna know how to relate to other folks.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

When I when I talk to people about race, I think that race is something that in the church, in as Christians, that uh, and I I've told Steve this before, um, I don't want to be about race relations, I want to be about grace relations, because I think that's what Jesus calls me to. And that means when people say the wrong thing, the ignorant thing, that I try to meet them with the grace. You know, sometimes people are being mean, like like you mentioned, uh CJ, you know, we're calling somebody the N-word. They're that that that you know, calling names and that kind of thing is just mean. But other times people just either don't know better, they're they're inexperienced. So I try to treat those situations as how do I bring what what you know the grace that God has given me into that relationship. Um and sometimes sometimes I get met with meanness, but most of the time that is not true. Most of the time people want to uh, you know, because there is this element and I experienced this in when I was working for the county here in Portland where there was kind of this uh gotcha mentality, you know, whether you know someone says something wrong in a meeting or oh, gotta get rid of that person. They they they they said the wrong thing. Um, I remember there was someone that said uh it was in a meeting and it was a mixed group of racially mixed group of people, and one of the leaders in the group said, you know, I I don't mean to uh I don't mean to be a slave driver. Totally wrong thing to say, totally wrong things to say. But the fact that person got fired for that, that was a little harsh to me. I thought that was a something, uh a learning moment. Hey, let me tell you why that's wrong. And Rob and I talk about things that we heard growing up from our parents. My dad used to say, Are you out of your cotton picking mine? And he and you think about that, you know, when I was a kid, I didn't think about it. But as you get older, you kind of go, Ooh, do you know what that was about?

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

I think that's where people use terms, words, ideas that they grew up with, and they don't, they just don't know any better. And again, if they if they don't want to move off of that, I I I don't know what to do about that. But if they're most people want want to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And it changes, the language changes, and what was offensive then is not offensive anymore. And what's offensive now, like, and I love your perspective because it's an opportunity to invite an honest conversation. Can we be in a safe space where we can learn from each other instead of you're fired or I'm gonna become more entrenched in my position? And it creates more of that us versus them mentality. But when we invite people into our stories and extend grace, that's when we learn and grow and we become better together.

unknown 36:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Absolutely. I think also a lot of uh, you know, I Trolles and I have had so many conversations, and sometimes it's him helping me because I need it, and sometimes it's me asking, yeah, what is it? Is this okay? Is this not okay? And and um, you know, and I think if we can humble ourselves a little bit to go, tell me your story, help me understand this. Why is this wrong, or is it not okay to say?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

And and Trules is not the spokesperson for every biracial person, right? Because everyone's experience too is different.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

I thought that's why we put him on. He's a spokesperson.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, we're gonna give out his number, just text him.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

I I also have to say when Steve's talking about him learning from me, I I think about in my younger years being angry and being uh saying things that were not uh that I'm not proud of. And for me, it's been a a growth and an evolution, and and I'm still growing. I'm not yeah, I haven't arrived. And I I feel like God is always teaching me more about how to be a better Christian, how to be a better person. And you know, one of the things that I would throw out, and you all are keenly aware of, is our church in the United States is one of the most segregated places in America. And I think that's changing. I mean, when I look at, especially in in some of the the areas like Portland, Sacramento, LA, the bigger cities, you're seeing more uh interracial churches, diversity in churches. And I think that's my hope, my prayer for the church in the United States is that we do more of that bridging and and and joining together. Because I think that's that would speak volumes to to to other people, to to non-believers. And a lot of you know, a lot of non-believers I run into are see the racism in the church and don't want to be a part of it, and other things, and other things that's a part of it that we and I know it's not the whole church. I'm I'm not but that's not a blanket statement.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Well, um, Trules, for all those things you've said to me, I forgive you. I I go to a church that's pretty diverse, and I had never thought about it until I got there that this is what heaven is gonna look like.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

You know, sometimes people will complain about their church, you know, especially if it's too big. I go, well, if you don't like a big church, you're gonna hate heaven. If you're gonna if you don't like diverse church, you're gonna hate heaven because it's every tribe, every tongue, all of that. I I'm loving this conversation, Charles, and thank you. But I want to kind of turn a corner to see if there's other things that you wanted to include because I think you may have already hit them, but we tend to follow a format where we talk about your story and then we talk about what what's helped and where are you headed? And you've talked a little bit about grace relations, which you know you and I have talked about for a long time and has really stuck with me.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

And um, I'm working on that for sure. But are there other things that you feel like have help or other things you want to say about like where are you headed in this journey?

SPEAKER_04 40:19

A few years ago, I have a I have a friend, Hector, who is a non-believer, but we're very close friends. He has a mission statement for his life, and I thought, oh, mission statement. I love that. So I I adopted a mission statement for my life, and that mission statement is to build community in everything I'm involved in, whether it's uh in my neighborhood, whether it's in my church, whether it's at work. My mission uh my my mission statement is to build community. And that means building community with people who are different than me. And I think one of the for for people who maybe you belong to a church that, you know, it's the church you belong to, and there may not be diversity there, but there may be diversity at your work. How can you reach out to people at your work and have them over for dinner, be involved with people and learn with with uh not with a I'm a help a black person, but uh a curiosity, a curiosity to to want to learn and and and gain something from folks. One of the things I joke about what I just said, but I also think my concerns sometimes were some white people can be paternalistic, yeah, where they want to, I'm gonna help this person rather than what can I learn from this person? What can I what what what what does this person have to offer that will benefit me or benefit our uh my community? So but that takes stepping out of our comfort zones, being uncomfortable. At our church, we have uh an African community um from several different countries, Ghana, Sierra Leone, and there's a couple black couple in front of us from Sierra Leone that have three beautiful little daughters. They're just so cute. And we always greet them and chat with them and talk to them. One Sunday they said, Hey, uh, we want you to come to our house. We're having an event for our daughter. I was like, okay. And so Robin and I went, took our girls, and there was probably a hundred people there, and 90 of them were from Africa. And it was just a it was beautiful. It was such a beautiful thing to walk into and to experience. Was it a little uncomfortable? Yeah, but was it really enriching to to Robin and I and our girls? Oh, absolutely. So for me, it was it was a good experience to experience their culture, how they uh entertain and how they eat, how they how they uh um have community together. So that was uh important to me. Yeah, you know, I I think about traveling, you know, and Rob and I like to travel and you know, when you're in other countries, experiencing that other country's culture and trying to find out where Steve, I know Steve does this too. It's like, where do the locals eat? What do the locals do? Not just what do the tourists do, but what is life really like for folks?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

So I wanted to say, um, me and Steve go to the same church, and it's very diverse. And uh before that, I've always been to Filipino churches. And there's a role in Filipino churches, especially for immigrants that come in, they're looking for something comforting, right? But I grew up going to high school here, and my my breakdancing crew had Indian guy, black guy, white guy, Filipinos, Vietnamese. And so I was used to that, and I I didn't know I was yearning for diversity until I went to Church that I'm going to, and I see this diversity. I'm just thinking now is that I think kids and the younger generation now see way more diversity through social media now. So for the church to not make this a priority, I think they're going to be missing a thing where kids are going to a church is like, oh, this doesn't look like the world I know.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

And they're going to feel a certain way or not. And I know there's some people that come from a homogeneous community and are looking for diversity, but there's also people that are like, I'm looking for a church to reflect my community that I see online or see it around me. So good.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

I think as a sociologist often and think about people are responding to the container they're put in or the church they're put in or the community they're put in. And one of the things I think that hasn't been helpful to making churches more diverse is the way some churches go about attracting people. You go to some churches, they play one kind of music. Yes. In one language. In one, you know what I'm saying? And and and there's there's some, I think when you have diversity, the truth is you're going to have some conflict in that growing together. In places I've worked, in churches I've worked in, when we're trying to build relationships uh across our differences, there's there's conflict. And conflict about the kind of music we're gonna have, conflict about the as somebody said, language. In our church, we have a large Spanish speaking community. And one of the things that has been an issue is do we have a separate service for Spanish speakers or a separate service for English speakers? And what does that do to the relationships when we do that? Or should we try to figure out how to integrate that with different languages and different traditions so that we can meet everybody's needs or or some meet some of everybody's needs, not all of one of everybody's hey, um we could probably go on forever and ever.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

And Trules and I have been known to stay up through the night um in solving the world's problems and then not remember with communion and then not remember what the solutions are. But and I want to just kind of end with a call to action that if you heard something on this podcast that you liked, will you just send it to somebody, subscribe, do all that stuff, but also, even maybe more importantly, this week, before you forget, will you just try to find somebody who's different than you in some way, politically, racially, faith-wise? Yeah. And will you just try to learn from something from them? Will you just spend a little time trying to get to know what you can learn from them? Yeah and we'll just kind of keep plowing forward. Truels, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, I gotta just tell all of you he's my best friend. You can't have him. All right. Thanks, Trolls.

unknown 47:01

Okay, all right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

And as you know, we try to end our episodes with something funny and stories. And so, um, you heard a lot from my friend Truels. And I was best man at his wedding, and I failed him. So it was so sad. What did he do? His wife told me, You got one job to do, and I completely blew it. Uh, their wedding was beautiful, it was amazing, it was awesome. But there was a part at the wedding where they were gonna kneel down and do communion, and you know, Robin said, just make sure nobody writes something stupid on his shoes. And I go, Okay, cool. So I checked, he wears size 14. Okay, it's not like you know, you anyway. I checked his shoes two times, three times, four times, and nothing. I was the hero.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Wait, hold on. Is this a thing? People write on the bottom of people's shoes.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

I'll get there. Okay. Um, I was like a hero. CJ, I was a hero. I had done my job. I Robin was actually gonna like me for a while, and then they go to date communion, and they kneel down together and they take communion, and as Trools kneels down, all the audience could see is his back and his shoes, and somebody had written, help me on the shoes. That's so good. How did we how did they do that with me checking on them all the time? Well, I'll tell you how they did. Here's the backstory he has two other friends that also wear size 14 shoes, and they were in the wedding, and one of them slipped it at the very last second. Like wow, while they were putting on their shoes, they were putting on Truol's shoes and slipped it in there. And so I had one job to do when I blew it. Truels, I am eternally sorry.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

So good though. So memorable.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Truels, you also brought a story or two, and I thought they were hilarious. So do share.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Yes. Um, I have mentioned my two wonderful daughters, uh, Hannah and Ellie, Eleanor. One story I want to tell about Hannah. When Hannah was about five years old, you know, we're driving through the neighborhood and go down this one street, and we pass this huge cemetery with the big gothic gravestones and whatnot, with beautifully manicured lawn. Hannah says, What's that, mom? And Robin says, Oh, that's that's a cemetery. And she goes, What's that for? She goes, That's where they put people when they die. And she, you know, Hannah pauses and you see her thinking, and she says, Is that heaven?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Not impressed.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

And then we had to go into this, we had to go into this whole metaphysical conversation about the spirit and the body and none of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

That was the theology lesson right there. Yeah. That was that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

And then Eleanor, Ellie, uh, when she was about five, Ellie and Hannah both loved going to church. And the uh pastor at our church was doing a thing, we were doing a thing around Lent. And the they would have this time where they would bring kids up front and just kind of give them a mini sermon before they did the the full-on sermon.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:23

And uh the pastor was talking about what Lent meant, you know, that it was a time to give up something you really care about or really like, so you can better focus on your faith and focus on Jesus. And so the pastor's going around asking different kids, what do you want to give up to focus better on Jesus? And uh gets to Eleanor and says, Eleanor, what are you gonna give up? Ellie says, church. Everybody just started laughing. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

She might be the poster child for children's lent, because uh a lot of people want to give that up. That's a great.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

She was over Ellie and her girlfriend were over last night, and I was telling her we were doing this. I said, Are you kidding if I share this? That's so good. She said that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

That's fantastic. Well, Trolls, thank you for the stories. Thank you for the great wisdom, thank you for grace relations.

SPEAKER_04 51:13

Nice to meet you, Heidi. So good to meet you. CJ, when I see you next time, don't forget me.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

To our listeners, we'll see you next time on Faith Rehab Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Be blessed.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Bye. Thanks, Trolls. How are you? See y'all.