Ep. 10 – Ten Episodes! What We Have Learned So Far

This is our tenth episode of the Faith Rehab Podcast, where we talk about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith. We remind ourselves of our goals: “we exist to bring comfort and community to those who have been hurt by the imperfections of the church.” We have heard people’s stories, we have reflected on what has hurt, what has helped, and where they are headed now. We have celebrated that people continue to grow and change, no matter where they feel like they are headed. We remind people that we are committed to not naming individual pastors or churches, but to working through the hurts of individual people. 

We talk about the role of the church in our lives; the good, the bad, and the ugly. CJ reminds us that “The church is meant for brokenness to go away over time and change to happen over time.” 

The rituals may differ, the beliefs may differ, but many churches, even among the hurts, are helping people change to be more like Christ. That it is possible to move from filtering all spiritual experiences through our pain, to seeing a focused relationship with God and letting go of some pain, finding healing and joy again.

Real healing can come when we go from seeing the hurt as the story of our lives, to seeing that hurt as a chapter in the story of our lives.

Faith Rehab is a podcast about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

We create a safe space for honest conversations about spiritual disappointment, doubt, and the process of finding hope again—without pretending or having all the answers.

Co-hosts: Steve McNitt, Heidi Brandt & CJ Mateo
 Produced by: CJ Mateo

Contact us at Faithrehabpodcast@gmail.com
— we’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey, welcome to Faith Read Have Podcast. Today we are celebrating 10 episodes. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 0:09

And we're going to learn that CJ basically deploys spies for people who have claimed to be injured at work.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Wow. Yes. And then you're going to get a full description of a painting that Heidi is going to send to me. Yes. It's a good one. Enjoy.

unknown 0:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Hi, welcome to Faith Rehab Podcast. This is episode 10. Yay. As always, Faith Rehab Podcast is here to talk about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding faith.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

And I am Steve McNitt and I am a therapist, but I'm not your therapist, so you get to ignore all of this for free. But here's a fun fact about me that when I go out for a walk, if there's like a dead leaf anywhere within my walking distance, I will walk out of my way to crunch it. Because dead leaves are like my ASMR. I love the sound of that. I'll even have in my mind this game like of what's this gonna sound like, and then I rate it on a scale of one to ten of how did it actually perform?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Don't you have a million leaves in your area?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yes. And I go for a walk almost every day. You do though. Yes. And I love that. When crunching a leaf, there's something so wonderful about that. Don't you agree?

SPEAKER_05 1:41

I actually feel a little less alone. I don't crunch leaves, but I have pine cones outside of my patio door, and I will step on them. And the other day I realized my 17-year-old was watching me, and so I felt like I had to explain myself. Like, don't you ever like just step on pine cones?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

She's like, Mom, you good? You good at all? You're just killing all the pine cones.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

I feel like we should start a support group or something. Yes. All right. Um, my name is Heidi, and I am a public speaker, corporate trainer, executive coach, extraordinaire. And something that is kind of like well known about me in my circles is I'm a little spoiled when it comes to sleep. I'm very particular about my sleep. I love to sleep. And I'm in the Midwest, so I'm actually two hours ahead of CJ and Steve. Yeah. And we start recording what feels like so early for me, which is 9 a.m. But it is seven.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, half the day is gone.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

It's 7 a.m. for them. So I need to start adulting. And I think that part of that is gonna be trying to wake up a little bit earlier.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

There you go. Yeah, and and just so everyone knows, CJ and I get on at 6:45.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Just to rub it in.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Heidi gets on about 6.59. What? And asks, where's the link? Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

You do, or how do I turn on my computer? How do I plug it in?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

One time you were on your phone and you told us, hey, I can't use my computer tonight. There's been electrical storms, like the storm of the century, stormwatch, and it's knocked out power grids all over the place. And I can't use my computer, but but it sounds like it's fixed.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Because I just had to plug it in and I didn't know it. I thought the whole motherboard was ruined and was the issue. Jake came home and he's like, Mom, it's not plugged in. And I was like, Oh, that is fantastic. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

All right, who's left? CJ.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Hey, my name is CJ. BMI too high, but uh let's try to get that BMI lower because uh Heidi's cousin wants me to get it lower. Um I don't think I've ever said this. I am a workers comp specialist. Isn't that weird?

SPEAKER_05 3:55

Do you have to like evaluate the validity of someone's work injury?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah, I have to investigate people.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

Do you like sit outside their houses and watch them crunch leaves and say they cannot collect a check?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I send people to do that.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

You do you? So I you have spies looking for people stepping on pine cones and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Well, if the doctor's like, hey, you shouldn't be stepping on pine cones, that's what I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get Heidi stepping on pine cones.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

How many times do you have to say, walk it off, rub some dirt in it, take a lap, you're fine.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

I don't do any of that. I'm not a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

You're looking for fraud though.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I am, and if you're ever thinking about like, oh, I'm gonna catch bad guys, it happens way less than you think. So, anyways, I am a workers comp specialist.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Yeah, I have a show and tell. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

The show doesn't work that well on the on just the audio.

SPEAKER_05 4:47

You're gonna have to describe this. Okay. Uh Josh was I was married to Josh and he just cleaned out his apartment and he said, Heidi, you need to send this to Steve.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Oh, yeah, it's my favorite picture.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Oh my god, I can't wait to put it up.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

What we're seeing is a a guy with a lightsaber with an ATAT fallen in the background. It's a very nice painting.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

If you think of Anakin Skywalker, that's who you should be picturing.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

This this was a gift from somebody after Josh and I got divorced.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

But we're not done, we're not describing done describing it. Anakin's Skywalker with an ATAT. Yeah, he's holding up this lightsaber, blue, only it's Josh's face. Yes, it is completely 100% Josh. Yeah, like he took out an ATAT with a lightsaber. Yes, Josh Skywalker.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Who who made this?

SPEAKER_05 5:43

So when I when Josh and I were divorced, the ladies from our church lined up at the door with casseroles as if I had died. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Shooting their shot.

SPEAKER_05 5:53

Someone who I think wanted to date Josh thought, what better way to catch this pastor than to commission someone to paint him as Luke Skywalker. Right. He thinks she actually painted it.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 6:09

So Josh and I like split up and then I moved back home. And when I moved back home, that was hanging on the wall in our family room. I was like, what is happening here?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I remember when you first told us that we saw it. And I don't know if you if you don't know what an ATAT is, is that big giraffe looking machine, right? And we're like, Heidi, is that a representation of you? The one the fallen machine in the back.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

Oh my gosh, I've never thought about that before.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah. Dang.

SPEAKER_05 6:39

It doesn't even really look like Josh.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Uh it does. Okay. Someone's better. It does.

SPEAKER_05 6:45

Well, get ready, Steve, because it's coming your way.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Also, also, I don't want to bid for that. You moved out and then he just redecorated. Come on, Josh. I know.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Was it hanging?

SPEAKER_05 6:58

It was hanging in the family room.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Like Josh, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 7:02

A place of honor. Like family.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

That is um, I can't wait. I'm getting the picture. I I will hang it. See, for those of you that can see into my office, which is approximately CJ and Heidi.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Next time we record, it'll be hanging right back there behind me.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

It's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And also, ladies, let the ink dry on those papers before you start pending out casseroles and paintings. Come on, what are you doing? I mean, come on, ladies. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Is Josh really into Star Wars?

SPEAKER_05 7:38

He is. He's very into Star Wars, so it made sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

If he lived near me, we'd be going to see Mandalorian today.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, I know. I need to see that.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

Did you have you seen it yet?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

No, I'm going today. Susie's leaving town and I'm going to see Mandalorian. By yourself? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Are you gonna fall asleep? I don't think so. I hope not. I'm not feeling that great. So I'm gonna try to like jack myself up with like the biggest diet coke they have. And of course, popcorn will keep me busy for most of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I love it. Wow, you're wild. Jack yourself up with a diet coke. You know what? Calm down.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Here's another fun fact about me. And you are gonna be so jealous. You try to make me jealous of that painting. What do you hear? This you know when you go to the dentist and they put that little paper on your chest, but they have like a thing that goes around your neck with clips. Yeah, I made one of those for when I go to the movies so that the popcorn, when it falls on me, it's not getting butter all over my sweatshirt or whatever. Susie thinks it's the nerdiest thing ever. I go into the movies. Yeah, I don't know, she's right. I don't know why. I go into the movies, I hook this thing up, it's got a towel, I'm good to go.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Man, you drop a lot of popcorn if you needed to invent something.

SPEAKER_05 8:52

Seriously, do you wait till it gets dark or you just like own it going in?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

You know what? I'm I'm trying to sell prototypes at the door. Don't act like you don't want one now either. Maybe I'll mail that to you, Heidi.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

I got some exciting news. Tell us this is our 10th episode. We made it.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

We did it.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

We made it to 10. What does this mean?

SPEAKER_05 9:17

10 feels significant.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Do we make money now? That's uh, yeah, there's no more. This is it.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

Oh, okay. We're done.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Oh, that's that's not good.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

It was fun. It was fun while awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Add it up.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

So, how do you guys feel about having done 10 episodes? We've interviewed some people, we've talked a little bit, we've told some stories, we've seen Heidi's wasband and a picture. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 10:05

I think that this has been so healing for me personally. I have said to Steve recently, in all the ways that I've been disappointed by the church, I feel like the two of you have become my church. So Steve said, Okay, well, then I'm gonna start taking up an offering time we need. Passing that basket, baby. And to hear other people's journeys and I don't know, be inspired by the way that people heal differently and move on differently, depending on where they're at in life and what that looks like is just a reminder to all of us that there's no cookie-cutter way to heal from a church hurt, that it's it's unique to the person. And I've just really been enjoying hearing different stories and hearing what's helped because it's helped me.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

That's great. Thank you, Heidi. And that's quite a compliment that we are feeling like a safe space and uh a loving community for you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah, and out of nowhere, all these people volunteer their stories to you, walking around, you know, I heard your podcast, you know, that happened to me, and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, and it's it's great. And I remember when Steve started this idea, and I honestly wasn't sure where it would go, but it's really panning out to be a virtual safe space for people to listen to. And the connections to it, to some of these episodes, I didn't even like expect. Like, I heard that episode, and you know, and uh the one thing I I love is that um it I don't know why it took 10 episodes, but my dad was like, hey, your uncle talked to me about your podcast. I finally listened to it, you know? I was like, cool, what do you think? And she he just started telling me other stories about his PK experience. So it's kind of opening up that door to anyone, my my family, friends, and so um, yeah, it's been a really cool experience of hearing people's stories.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

And hasn't it also kind of been a reminder of like what to do and what not to do and reflecting back on things that we've done and gone, gosh, we could have done that different, we could have done that better. The ownership piece.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Totally. You know, when we started before we started recording, we spent some time thinking about our goals and our mission statement. And I want to read that. That we exist to bring comfort and community to those who have been hurt by the imperfections of the church. And I I feel really proud that we have really kind of stuck with that. And for those that are listening to the podcast regularly, what you don't hear is the backroom discussions that we have about how to stay true to helping folks and not naming pastors or denominations, you know, things like that that will be hurtful. Because if you name a pastor, like, hey, this guy was a jerk, that's somebody's pastor that he may still be helping and they may still be following. And so we don't want to tear down the church. We want to build up the church and remind people that it's a a bunch of imperfections. And um I love that. And I I I I tell you, I've gotten some really great compliments, but my favorite compliments, I got two of them this week. Both of them were people that that aren't church folks. Like, I don't know if they've ever gone to church. And one of them just said, It's such compelling stories, and you guys are so compassionate. And I love that we're creating that kind of safe space. And the other one was a woman who I worked with um for a while, and she said, I'm loving your podcast and I wanna I want to send it to other people. And I think that if we have the kind of place where folks who have been hurt by church or church people, we hope that we bring stories that you can relate to and that you know you'll find your own story in there and some healing. But people who haven't had that, for them to hear everybody's got some hurt. I mean, I I feel like the scars of life just kind of keep going until you know the older you get, the more scars you get. But the scars, if they heal correctly, can be really great, healthy places. And so I I've loved that it's been sort of a variety of folks that have listened and appreciated it.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

I liked the analogy that you gave, Steve, recently when we were talking, because it's easy to become very disparaging of the church. And one of our earlier episodes, we did talk about like calling out abuse when it's abuse. Like this isn't we're gonna sugarcoat what's happening in churches, right? But some of it is just in these minor ways that were disconnecting or creating hurt for other people. And can you share the analogy that you gave? Do you know which one I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

No, I give so many analogies. Okay, I'll I'll you've narrowed it down to a thousand.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

I'll start it and I'll let you finish it.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

If you are a part of a partnership and you get invited to go hang out with another couple, yeah, and you like really like the one person in the group, but but like then they're married to someone that you're like, yeah, if they weren't a part of the picture, maybe we'd hang out more.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Right. It's a great start. And one of the things that I have connected that with is that in the Bible it calls the church the bride of Christ. And sometimes we want to love Jesus, but not his bride. That's so hard. And I will just say I am very blessed to know Heidi and Josh. I'm very blessed to know CJ and Sam and love all of them. Um, but there are couples, and you know what? It's hard to find couples where you like both of them. Yeah. And but there are couples where you know you love them both and you could hang out with either one of them. But there are couples that you like really like the one partner, but not the the other one's okay. I mean, they're fine, but it's not like, hey, we can't wait to hang out with you and your caustic nature, your toxicity.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Every couple that knows Steve right now is like, is that me? It's not talking about me.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

It's no one listening to this, I promise you. Yeah. Hey, yeah, we can cut that later. Okay. But when we talk about Jesus, you know, for us, and not everyone listening has that same relationship with Jesus, but I just love who he was to other people and who he has been to me. And I don't always love the bride, but the bride of Christ is who Jesus calls the church. And I know that there's a lot of talk right now about deconstructing faith or reconstructing faith or those kinds of things. But one of the things I know is that the church is people, imperfect people. I don't think he was envisioning, you know, 2700 Oak Street in anywhere, California, you know, that building or that structure uh that has to keep the budget going. But I think he was thinking of people like CJ and Heidi and so many of our listeners that really are the bride of Christ, that are supposed to be many pictures and living pictures of hope in the world. And I hope here that people will hear that and remember that.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

Yeah, I well, you know, when we were talking with one of our the people that we were interviewing a couple of weeks ago, something really stood out to me when he said that he's learned that there are like evangelists everywhere, whether or not they're a part of the church, right? Whatever it is that someone is selling or or believing in, like that kind of becomes their religion. And when you are scrolling through social media, you could find five or six different takes on relationships, a church experience, how to raise your kids. There are so many platforms. And I think what I appreciate about our platform is that we're making space for all of the different perspectives. That's what diversity is, right? Like when you go to an emergency room because of an issue, you want as many perspectives as possible evaluating what the problem is so that you can get better. And I think that when it comes to conversations with people, we don't want to pigeonhole one type. We want to hear all stories because that's how we can actually heal.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yeah. I do hope the one thing that we could deconstruct in the church is thinking when you go to church, that's when brokenness disappears. That's not where it disappears.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Like the church is meant for brokenness to go away over time and change to happen over time, like what Heidi was talking about. And the guests that we have are so diverse in their outcome, and sometimes they don't even have the outcome that we expect from a Christian. Are we a quote unquote Christian Christian podcast? Um, so what I like about this podcast is it feels like you're stepping into someone's personal therapy session and you're just getting kind of listening. And where wherever that lands, that's where it lands. Like, why can't we be okay? Like, let's be okay with that, right? And not have the outcome that you expect. Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

That's emotional. Like we should be able to show up messy.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I used to think that you know, if people would come to Christ, you know, just come to the cross, come to Christ. That's the journey. And what I realize now is the journey ends with my last breath. And the transformation should be happening all the way until then. It happens in a more dramatic way after that last breath, too, I think. But um but I think that as we think about transformation for myself, I hope that it means I'm gonna continue changing and growing and and that I get to finish strong. I think it's one of the things I love about you guys is that for people to be able to show up and go, I don't know where it's gonna end. Yeah, we don't either, but it's your journey. You know, we had one person who said, I'll do the interview as long as you realize I'm never going back to church. And for us to say, Yeah, it's your journey.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

We don't know where the Lord's taking any of us.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

So, so let's go. Let's let's be on that journey together.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

In one of the earlier episodes, CJ said, It's really difficult when you've ever been on church staff because it almost feels impossible to sit through a service and not be critical that the slide's not advancing fast enough. And I went to Josh's church. Um, I know we're not supposed to name churches. I went to a church.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

It's too late. You can name him uh imagine Pastor Anakin Skywalker.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

And they were doing baptisms, and they were doing baptisms in a way I'd never seen baptisms done before. And I actually, he has a funny story because he had to get a feeding trough. So he had to go to like a farm and fleet store to get a feeding trough. And the person who was helping him pick one out said, Are you do you need one for cold plunges or do you need one for baptisms?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

And Josh said, How did you know? And he said, Because farmers don't buy feeding troughs, they usually have farms that have been around forever and they they already have one. Yeah, they live. He said, I need it for baptism. Um, do you mind if I get in it? Because I need to make sure that it's like big enough. So Josh in the middle of farming fleet plugged his nose and baptized himself. But when when we were watching the baptisms, the worship was going on, and then the baptisms were on the side. And it was he was like rapid fire baptizing people while we were singing, and I just I've never experienced baptism like that. That before. And it became a huge distraction to me. And I found myself going into this hyper-critical space. And then I realized like, if I went to Catholic Mass or if I went to a mosque and watched some ritual that was a part of their church, I would just think, wow, this is like a really significant spiritual moment that's meaningful to that person. Why is it that when I'm sitting in a non-denominational church, I'm going, this is so cringy? But that's not the point. Does that make sense? Like and I could hear CJ in my head, like to not be hypercritical. And the next thing you know, I'm like bawling because I just think this is this is beautiful because it means something to the people who are experiencing it. That's what it should be about.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Right. And there's something I read this week that is relatable. So I'm trying to look for it. But it was this article that said your pain was never meant to be your identity. And it says every interaction is filtered through it, every new space is tested against it. Slowly the wounds move from something that happened to you, that's something that defines you. So some people take this hurt or your experience, and you start filtering everything through it. And that's what I experienced after like I left the church as a staff and I went from church to church. And I started filtering all my hurt through whatever I'm seeing. And it became it defined me. Like the church hurt defined me and affected every single church experience after that. Like what you did, like slowly that went away. And I started not not filtering all my pain, like everything through my pain or my experiences, and just let it go, you know.

SPEAKER_05 24:02

And so okay, amen. I'm done. CJ, you're just dropping all the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Tithes and offerings now, or one of the things that um I was trained in as a therapist is a a type of therapy called trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy. And one of the things that as you deal with any trauma, when you can get, and CJ, you just illustrated this perfectly. When you go from that's the story of my life, when you go from that to that's a chapter in the story of my life, big difference, real significant healing happens. Because when we can get to the that's and when you think about all the really great movies that you love, there's some conflicts that happen and then they keep going. That's not where it ends. If it ends, it's a terrible movie. It sucks, right? And it'll probably be Academy Award winner because that's how they do it.

unknown 25:00

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

But that's such a great illustration, CJ, of uh it's not my whole life. It was a chapter in my life that was painful. Billy Graham said that if you find the perfect church, leave because you'll screw it up. But I don't think he means we would screw it up. I think he means it doesn't exist because they're all screwed up.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

And Heidi and I talked about this recently. I think about issues. My church I love, but there are some issues that that I'm working through with them, hoping they're going to get it correct. But but um, but also I go, you know, there were abolitionists in churches long before slavery was abolished. And not all the churches were abolitionist churches. There were people that were sort of holding folks' feet to the fire and saying, do better, be better, let's figure this out. And so even the issues that we struggle with in our churches, we hope that we can be people that will be encouraging ourselves in transformation, but other people as well. And whatever that is for you, if if the reason you're not going to a a group of people and worshiping with them, maybe that's an issue you can help that church with. Or maybe it's just not time yet. Maybe you need more healing before you're ready to do it. Or maybe you're never gonna do it. Yeah. So let's let's let's talk about us. How are you guys doing with your faith? How how how are you doing with your own journey?

SPEAKER_01 26:37

So it's it's funny that um we have this podcast at this time, because at in this time at my church, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of things that I've never experienced, a lot of possible, like not it's kind of like dialogue around a split. It's not gonna, I don't see it splitting, but there's definitely people on either side of the uh on the issue. And sometimes I get into all these conversations, like, what's out? Are you on? Blah blah blah. And kind of like what you were talking about, Steve and Heidi, the analogy of like there's one couple, there's one person that you don't like in a couple, but sometimes that person that you don't like, some someone else likes. Yeah, like even though it's not your cup of tea, someone likes them. And for me, it's been a chapter where I'm just trying to show grace on both sides. I'm like, what's that are you on? I'm mad at everyone, everyone's messed up. What the heck, you know? At the same time, I love everyone. Like, I I just hope that for the best. And the person that where what I would say, like I would normally make a case against, is like, hey man, he he helps a lot of people, or she helps a lot of people, and we we should just lift them up. Yeah, like I think this podcast came at a perfect time where a lot of people are questioning the church that I go to, and it's it's open a conversation of how should we react to it. And for me, it's like we we gotta look up and we all gotta take blame. And there are no sides, we just gotta we gotta dialogue, and that's what this podcast is. We're dialoguing about things that normally people don't talk about.

SPEAKER_05 28:18

Yeah, it's such a mature perspective, CJ, because we live in a world that's I think more polarized than ever before. And so it makes sense that even people inside of a church would become very polarized over an issue. And I remember very early on in ministry being super critical of certain people within the church, and somebody said to me, Well, somebody's gotta bring the brownies, like somebody's gotta, you know, lead the mothers of preschoolers that need that kind of support. And it was this reminder that there is a need for all kinds of people within the church because there are all kinds of people in the church.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

I I actually think that, you know, for those of us that follow Christ, Jesus gave a great example of that. We know that most of us know there were 12 disciples, most of us know that Judas betrayed him, but Jesus picked him. You know, that that that was a choice. There's also a couple of disciples that we don't hear much about, Bartholomew and Andrew. What did they do? Like, what was their role? I think you don't you hear about Peter walked on water and he cut off the ear of a guard, and you know, John was the first to after the women, John was the first man to show up at the at the tomb. And you you hear about Matthew having a party. What about Bartholomew and Andrew? Like, what the heck did they do? And and um, but Jesus picked them, and I think we're gonna get to heaven and find out that like Bartholomew was the guy arranging the chairs whenever there was a meeting, and that Andrew was like cleaning up afterwards, and he was the advanced scout to go find where's the best place to feed 5,000 people, you know. That they all in a church, we tend to see people who are up front, and we go, you know, I know Heidi has led worship a lot, CJ has been up front some. That um we tend to see those people and go, that's now that's cool. I I've done a ton of preaching. People never say that's cool, but they but to go, oh, you know, then they feel like they know me and and stuff like that, and you just go, it's it's all of the gifts that we need. And I love the analogy that Paul uses that we're all parts of the body. Like, yeah, could we all be an eye? That would be a waste. Should we all be a big toe? Not probably, but somebody's got to be, you know, the left ankle and you know, the right pinky and stuff like that, and we're all working together. If we can work together, the things will be beautiful. And it it's one of those, even when I teach people about prayer or when I talk about prayer, even Jesus has a prayer that hasn't been answered yet. He prayed that we would all be one. And I don't know about you guys, but it doesn't seem like we're one. Like I feel like one day we will be, but until then, even Jesus has a prayer that hasn't been answered. And so we should expect life to be messy.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:35

When I think about where I'm at right now in my faith journey, I think that I was one of those people who identified my pain with my story and who I was and how I showed up in the world. And it started from being a pastor's kid, and my mom and dad went through a very public divorce, feeling like it wasn't even my story. It was like my story was in the hands of my mom and my dad and the people they remarried and all the people part of the church, and trying to hammer out my own faith, apart from being a pastor's kid and then marrying a pastor and then getting divorced myself, learning what my story actually is, which I believe is the story that God intended from the start, and being curious and staying open to the possibility that maybe I'm wrong about some things and maybe I've hurt some people through my immaturity, and that if I feel more evolved today as a believer than I was 10 or 15 years ago, then I will continue, like Steve said, to be transformed and to learn new things. And there are books that haven't been written yet that we haven't read. Like I just want to be there for all of it and to land where I'm gonna land and to love people and to not get hung up on position and denominations and difference of opinion. Like, just be the best Heidi and help people draw close to God in any context, inside or outside of the church doors. That's that that's where I'm at today.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Love it. What a great place to be. So thank you for sharing that. And I'll I'll just talk about my faith journey. You know, it's been much longer than you guys, not partly because I'm just older.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Are you?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

I am. You know how old I'm gonna be this year, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Everyone knows at this point. Six seven.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Everyone episode. Yes. I think that my faith is probably in the stronger place than it's been in a long time. And some of that is, you know, there have been sort of things that have stacked up. You know, CJ and I, for the last couple of years, have been uh, you know, when when I'm having my devotional in the morning, sometimes I text CJ just something that's encouraged me. And it helps me process, and so I like doing that. And he'll send me some really deep thoughts and it's really encouraging and thoughtful. And doing this podcast and reconnecting with Heidi has been great because that is the the process of different people bonding over how are we gonna face the world in with our faith. But I also think I've been learning a lot, things that I have been transforming on that a few years ago this hit, this I you know, because I've I've been very deep into like apologetics and you know, how do you prove the faith? How do you prove the resurrection, stuff like that? And then I realized at one point a few years ago, I can't be the first person in 2000 years to have gotten it all right. And I I would love to think that I am, but I just know better, like I'm not really that special. So I must be wrong about some things, and just to kind of eat open mind, open ears, open palms, and just go, Lord, whatever you want to teach me, teach me. And that's kind of led me to on a daily just praying through my day as before I get up. Lord, you know, give me grace, you know, even this morning at the butt crack of dawn for the people that I'm gonna be interacting with. CJ, Heidi, you know, we're having an interview a little bit after this and some family stuff that's happening, and and to just go, you know, I think that's the the daily part of transformation. You know, in our society, we tend to think that knowing is growing. Like if I learn more Bible verses and I'll know more. So that's growing. And I think really growing is transformation, and so the more I keep working on that, I think the better I do. And I love this podcast because I'm rubbing shoulders with people whose stories are very different than mine, and it reminds me to have a wider swath of grace for people in the world.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah. In in Emma's episode, she mentioned, hey, just rub shoulders with the people that you probably don't really know much about. And I'm getting that so much from from Matt, from Emma, from Grace, from Truls. I get to hear so many different stories. So I mean, and this reminds me of recovery.

unknown 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

When you're in those circles and you hear these crazy stories that somehow have nothing related to you, but you're it's all related to you. Yeah, you're like, oh, that's me.

SPEAKER_05 36:45

You find parts of yourself in the story. My dad told me one time, and I don't think it came from him. I'm sure it came from somewhere else, or maybe it came from him, and I need to give him credit. But he said it's less about believing and more about becoming.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

We're giving Ralph some credit for that. Come on, Ralph. Um, yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I that might be a great place to stop.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Um, I don't know what you guys think, but I I want to thank people for listening. Uh, and just how much you passing it along and giving us compliments and and encouraging us has been fantastic. So thank you so much for that. So good.

unknown 37:33

Okay, all right, right.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

All right. Hey, along with listening, you know, we always want to encourage people in your journey, wherever you are, to also be transformed. And so we just encourage you to do something. If you liked today's episode, if you learned something, there's probably somebody that popped into your mind. Would you just share that with them? Please. Would you share the link? I it also helps us if you subscribe to our channel and you're gonna get notices of when we have new episodes up, but also uh it lets us get seen in different ways. But along with that, that's transformation that helps us. But let's talk about transformation that's gonna help you. Would you do one thing this week that is just based on wherever you are in your faith? Just do something that will show grace to someone or something really positive and loving to someone. Will you do that this week?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, like paint a picture, like a Star Wars picture of someone.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah, but not wait till they're finally divorced. That's where you do it. Yeah, I forgot about that. Please do that. All right, thanks. We'll see you next time on Fate Three Heb Podcast, Heidi. That's not what I was expecting.

SPEAKER_05 38:48

Oh, what am I supposed to say?

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Hold on, hold on. It's 10 episodes, and Heidi doesn't know her ending still.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Oh be blessed.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

The next time we'll get it. So early.