Episode 3 - Associate general counsel at Sun/Oracle and McKesson Corp talks about sage advice for career and life

Ted Borromeo, previous associate general counsel at Sun/Oracle and McKesson Corporation shares advice that his mentor gave him, "Do one or more of these things everyday." The benefits of professional retirement coaching and giving back are also discussed. Disclaimer: The subject of grief and losing a spouse is gently discussed.  

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Welcome to the next chapter Conversations, a podcast about real life stories from people designing a meaningful second act or retirement. My guests will talk about inflection points and the paths they took to their next chapters in life. The goal for the podcast is to create more dialogue and build community around the R word, a word that was really hard for me to wrap my head around when my own journey into my next chapter began. My guest today is Ted Borromeo, the first employment lawyer I worked with at Sun Microsystems, now Oracle. Ted was instrumental in the development of aggressive employee relations and benefits programs at the company. They were well known in the valley and made the company a highly sought-after place to work. During my time with Ted, what struck me most about him was his thoughtful approach in balancing the needs of the company with doing what was right for our people. During his full-time employment life, Ted was an active volunteer in his community and played a key role on the board of Catholic charities in San Francisco. Ted retired from his full-time role as assistant general counsel of McKesson Corporation five years ago. If my calculations are right, Ted has about 40,000 hours of retirement experience to share with us. Well past the 10,000 hours of dedicated practice to achieve expertise. Welcome to the podcast, Ted. Let's dive in with you telling us about yourself. Well, thank you, Lisa, for having me here today. A little background about myself. I immigrated to the United States from the Philippines when I was six years old and have lived my entire life in the San Francisco Bay Area. I grew up in San Francisco, went to elementary school and high school in the city, graduated from San Francisco State in 1972, and then from UC Berkeley Law School in 1977. I retired after practicing labor and employment law my entire career, first at Kaiser Aluminum in Oakwan, then Lockheed and Sunnyvale, Sun Microsystems, as you mentioned in Menlo Park, and last at McKessen Corporation in downtown San Francisco. My last 25 years were at those iconic companies, if you will. I was very lucky. I was the first employment lawyer at Sun. And when I left Sun as part of the Oracle sale, I had been the only head of employment and benefits local. Wow, I didn't know that. That's an accomplishment. A piece of trivia. Yeah. At one point I had about nine or ten lawyers on my team at Sun, and they were located in Sydney, Hong Kong, Paris, Denver, and Brussels. Yeah, I worked really closely with Lori Middlehurst. So yeah, she was great. So I have a little factoid about Lori. She came to me, I think it was 2002, and I asked if she could work remote. And what she meant by remote was working in Sydney. And I think one a pioneer in working remote, and she did it very long distance, and many of her clients for several years didn't know because she would keep hours, California hours. Yeah, I remember working with her during that time when she moved. And I think that was one of the things that really made Sun special. You definitely spearheaded that. I had worked at several tech companies before I came to Sun. And when I came to Sun, my experience was this is a whole new ball game. And the way that the HR and the people function operated, they really innovated. And the leadership team and the business leaders and the HR leaders, they really came together and they really listened and brought HR in a way that I'd never experienced before. And I remember thinking to myself, I remember being in the big auditorium when we moved back to Santa Clara. I remember just sitting there listening to all this, going, Well, I'm really a special company that really knows what they're doing and is really being progressive. Like we were doing hoteling back when nobody like that was like 15 years ahead of its time. And remember the grid? We pioneered the grid. We just couldn't monetize it. Right. Yeah, exactly. But there was so much there. And I just felt so fortunate to be working there with people like you and Lori and others. It really helped me later on in my career really think about how to lead the HR and people function. So I don't know if I ever had a chance to thank you and Lori for that. So thank you. Thank you for shepherding me as an early HR business partner because you really impacted my life and my career. That partnership with HR, you know, it's very progressive HR and leaders. I think that contributed significantly to the success of that my team had. Frankly, you know, the things you said about Sun as a place to work. It's because of that perspective that leaders uh, you know, in the HR organization brought. So yeah. So uh, you know, as far as my working career, I worked on the ramp service at United in college, loading bags. And I also did some volunteer work back then, house parent at a home for at-risk youth for Catholic charities. And little did I know that 50 years later I would be on the board for Catholic charities. So from the age of nine till I retired at 67, I had no forced unemployment periods. So I was very fortunate. I worked almost every day, even during law school, for part of law school, I worked to support myself. So I've been very fortunate that way. That's been my career trajectory, if you will. So let's go into the accomplishments that you're the most proud of. Back in 2009, I was inducted as a fellow in the College of Labor and Employment Lawyers. And essentially, why that's very gratifying is it's it's the pinnacle of being an employment lawyer because it's recognition by one's employment law peers throughout the country of the highest levels of professionalism and ethics. So that's one I'm I'm proud of. And then on a personal level, I was married for 26 years to my late wife, and uh, she gave me two beautiful children who were um wonderful people. And then I've been very fortunate um to have met somebody and I'm in a committed relationship for the last 10 years. Wow. So that's a situation today. Yeah. Congratulations on that. I couldn't imagine being close to retirement, working all those years saving and planning and having it be in your sights. And then, oh, I'm gonna cry just thinking about it. Imagining that, and then having your spouse and your best friend pass away. Like I can't imagine what that must have been like. Um kick to the gut, so to speak. Um, but I guess the Lord had other other plans for you because now you're happy with uh with your new partner for for 10 years. So that makes me happy. You deserve it. Yeah. Um so let's talk about it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Um, do you have a philosophy um or beliefs that you rely on that guide your choices in life? Maybe it's the cornball phrase, but it's the golden rule. Do unto others what we would want done to you. I you know, I think that guides me almost every day. And then and then the other thing is something I heard from my mom, which is you know, how can I be helpful? So I think those are the two philosophies or beliefs that guide me in life choices. Yeah. Um thank you. Let's talk about retirement. I touched on it a little bit. How did you prepare and plan for your retirement? How did it come about? So that you know, that great question. I um unlike many people, I had plenty of notice about retirement. But knowing that it was 2021 would have been past the time I would have retired anyway, you know, I told my general counsel it didn't make sense. She totally understood, and we came to an agreement that I would just stay till the end of January 2021 when they closed the office in San Francisco. So, okay, so you reached an agreement to stay on until the move. And you had two years, I guess, to plan for it. So were you thinking you were going to go back to work, or what was your decision-making process to like, okay, yeah, I want this is the sign for me to retire? Like, because some people, when those things happen, they take the package, they put it in the bank or do whatever, and then they go and find another job. Well, it depended on the day, quite frankly. Some days I thought, wow, you know, I don't want to uh stop working because the I love the work, I love the mental challenge and uh, you know, the puzzle pieces of being an employment lawyer. Um, but on the other hand, I thought, you know, now is the time for me to enjoy myself um and and do the things that I wanted to do, to travel, which I've done a lot of, and just have time to myself. So that I during those two years, that's what I did. And then frankly, when the time came and I left, you know, I had opportunities and you know, I had search firms reach out to me, but none of the roles were really interesting. And quite frankly, when I started thinking, well, you know, that's great, but gee, that's that's work. You know, so I quickly got away from that. And within a year, I was no longer even thinking about that. So yeah, okay. So you were so you were ready. Yes, yeah. I was I was very ready to go. Yeah, how about your partner? She's continued working until early this year. She's a few years younger than me. So, how's that transition been with both of you being retired and both of you being um? Well, it's been great because we've traveled, we took a cruise, we're playing on another cruise. Uh she has family in England that she visits, and you know, I still have family in the Philippines that I visit from time to time. We were just enjoying spending the time with each other, quite frankly. I mean, being able to do that and not have to worry about the demands of work. Yeah, that's that's great. That's that's the perfect situation. Before you retired, did you have specific goals you wanted to accomplish before you felt like you could retire? Whether it be in the workplace, financial, whatever. Yes, at least as as far as work, I I wanted to make sure that I found my replacement. And so I worked on that for several months and found a great person to take my role. So I accomplished that. Beyond that, I think a lot of people don't focus on the financial side of things, you know, not thinking about, you know, you save and save and save, but you don't really think about, well, how does that actually work once you're retired? What investments do I put my assets into? And what are the range of investments that I should be considering and, you know, making sure that it lasts through my lifetime? Um so I focus on that as well. But really, you know, it was just finding somebody to replace me was the focus for me. Yeah. Were there any tools that you relied on that you found were helpful or any specific thinking and examination that you did that made you feel like, okay, I'm ready now. I really feel like I've turned over every rock, I've analyzed every situation, I've anticipated everything. I think I've got this. Yeah. Oh, I was very fortunate because as I left McKesson, they offered out placement services, but part of that was really just counseling about the next phase of my career. And in that case, it was retirement. Okay. So talking to that counselor helped me think about what to be thinking about. And we weren't focusing on, and I wasn't focusing on finding a job. It was more of what do I do next? How do I keep busy? And um, you know, the financial piece, you know, what resources should I be looking to for for financial planning? I did that as well during those two years. Right. So the counselor helped you then think about retirement, not just finding another job. That's really nice. You know, I think a lot of people get offered that and they think, oh, I don't need it. Almost every person I've ever spoken with that has been offered those outplacement services, at least that's what they used to call them. Phrase has now been transition support. Every person that I've ever spoken to, and I've spoken to a lot being an HR for 20 plus years, has always come back and said that was really helpful. It was it was a good use of time. Tell me a little bit about the questions they asked you and what was most helpful for you about that process and investing that time in that. Well, I think, you know, I can't remember specific questions now, but I I remember that what they did was test my plan by asking me questions, and it solidified in my mind that I didn't want to work uh in a corporate law job anymore, that I wanted to retire and made me realize that the things I was answering had nothing to do with finding another job. Well, you know, what do I want to do in my my next phase? So that's how it was helpful. It was an iterative uh process, you know, question and answer. And you know, they had some ideas of what I could be doing, but quite frankly, I do that myself, which is fine boards I work on, activities that I'm enjoying. So I didn't really need help with that. It was really to help my mind get to that spot or to that space where let's not look for another job. That's not what I want to do. Right. So I know you're not engaged in business activities, but let's pivot now to now that you've decided you want to retire, you want to focus your time on other things. What are those things? Well, maybe see, my problem is like it's hard for me to say no when I get asked to serve one organization or another. So let me just tell you what I'm on. So I'm on the board of that, the College of Labor and Employment Lawyers, that organization I mentioned earlier. It's a national organization with 1,250 employment lawyers in the country. And I'm on that have been for five years. I rolled off the board of Catholic charities, but I'm still on the HR committee. I recently joined the board for Benetech that enables reading challenge individuals to read, and it works with school districts throughout the country. Okay, so you're doing that and then let's see, what else am I doing? Oh, I guess you know, about two and a half years ago, I started as uh an organization, a nonprofit organization that provides peer grief counseling and has about 200 volunteer counselors, of which I'm one. And it was a lifesaver for me when I was a client of Kara after my wife passed away. And so I started doing it two years ago, and I do individual and group peer counseling for them now, too. And it's just being able to talk to somebody who's in a different stage of the grief process. Yeah, you know, so it might be somebody that's qualified to help someone through that because a lot of times they want to help, but they don't know what to say. They're afraid they're gonna say the wrong thing. The person that's that has the loss is lonely and wants someone to talk to to process their feelings. And that can be a really lonely spot for people. So that's uh that's wonderful that you do that and and that you benefited from it and now you're you're giving back to the community. I think the big thing is we've been in their truth ourselves, so that helps, I think. Yeah, I think so. We have a grief ministry at the church that I go to and a friend of mine leads it, and I said, Oh, hey, I can come in and help. And she said, Why don't you come in and sit in with us? And I thought I was fine, and then we went around and it got to me, and I started crying because I started talking about a loss that I had had, and I was like, Oh, good Lord, I thought I was gonna be here to be help be a grief counselor to help others. And um, it made me realize I had some unresolved grief, right? You know, I got the support that I needed, and I've always thought about going back and helping. I'm such an empath, though. I have a very hard time not crying when I'm in those groups because everybody's story and emotions touch me. I don't think it that's helpful to people if I do that. So um, I think I would need some a little bit more training before I could be prepared to do something like that. You're raising a very good point. So volunteers go through about 25 hours of training, lead people to realize if this is something they can do or want to do. Yeah. Because it is it can be very intense. So to summarize back to you, you got support from Kara and now you're giving back. Like, how beautiful is that, Ted? That you've done that. What advice do you have for people thinking about or in the midst of creating a satisfying next chapter for themselves? Well, I think it starts with what I said earlier, kind of planning for it. You know, what is it that you want to do? You know, start forming networks. If you haven't already done that, you should probably be doing that all your career or all your life, networks of people you can talk to and identify what you want to do. I think that's the key thing. Because there is going to be an adjustment. You know, there I will tell you that first year was tough because all of a sudden, you know, I was no longer relevant, right? Nobody was calling for my advice. I think that's the thing to anticipate that there's going to be a perhaps an abrupt change in in that. And so you have to be able to adjust. And then I I was very fortunate. I had good mentors and friends who kind of who were ahead of me, and they gave me some good advice about what to do in retirement. I'll always remember the former general counsel at Sun who became a very good friend of mine, Mike Dillon. Yeah. You know, he had retired early in his 60s from Adobe, where he was general counsel. There for me when my wife passed and um supported me. And then he came to me and said, Ted, you know, when you retire, you gotta do three things. You know, you gotta every day do have one of three things. Do something fun, do something relevant. And then the third thing was get do something on your to-do list, you know. So to which at least I've added a fourth thing, which I tell people, which is give back. So I think those four points are what I keep in mind every day. Okay, which of these things am I doing today? So that that's what I've done to prepare for and to live in retirement. So, okay, I love the four bullets. I'm gonna borrow that because I I'm kind of in that midst. I think I'm figuring it out. Yep. How did you unpack process? Because I I struggle with that, you know, when I first retired, and are people gonna want to talk to me at a dinner party? Like I'm not the VP of blah blah blah, you know, I don't work at XYZ company. Like, who's gonna want to talk to me? You know, which is actually kind of a sad state that I put so much value on that for myself, but that's where I was back then. Um I think that's typical, you know, we define ourselves by our you you went through that too, so it wasn't just yeah, okay. I did, and and it was amplified, if you will, because it was during COVID, 2021. So it wasn't like I could escape and go somewhere because the travel was limited. I was at home, you know, I wasn't getting calls, as I said, for work. And how I defined myself was now gone. So that was an adjustment in the beginning. You know, I did start to travel. One of the first things I did, Lisa, I think it was October of 2021, and we're again we're right in the middle of COVID still, and very few countries are open. But I looked at the map as so where can I go? That's not closed. Iceland. Never been to Iceland. 300,000 people in the whole country, never been there, and it's open. So I went to Iceland. How was it? Oh, it's wonderful. I want to go back. But getting back to your point, the first year was a challenge, you know, redefining who I was, and like I said, reconnecting with old friends, enjoying things I didn't have a chance to do when I was working. Yeah. Yeah, I'm finding that too. I'm finding I'm doing things that I really enjoy doing early on in my life. And then schooling and work and mothering and family and everything else. So it's kind of interesting, I'm finding. How have your personal and professional relationships changed in retirement? I have a core group of guys and men I grew up with. I met them in grammar school and we have remained friends all these decades. The conversation has changed instead of talking about sports, and now we're talking about health and uh what ails us and what we laugh about it, and we but we see each other regularly, if not weekly. Uh so I've reconnected with them, but I never really lost touch with them. I spent more time with them. As I said, I reconnected with some grammar school and high school friends professionally. I still uh because I'm on that organization, that College of Labor and Employment Lawyers, um, I still have contact with practicing lawyers. And and I've kept my license uh active. So I attend continuing education programs, so I I keep current with the law. So that's that mental engagement, which I also enjoy. What three things would you tell your pre-retirement self? Uh first thing, and I tell this to all the students and young lawyers I mentor, is that it's a long game. You may be disappointed in the moment with something that's happened, but believe me, in the long run, just plan for the long term. I think that's the piece of advice I give them. You know, the power of networking. People I met many, many years ago were very helpful to me in my later years of my career because of the connections I had made early in my career. When I left Oracle, well, it was silent, when Oracle acquired it, I thought, well, here I am in my mid fifties, how am I ever gonna find a job? I'll have to look nationwide for a role at my level. And then fast forward, I was interviewing. McCassin reached out to me and finally I got to meet the general counsel. And the general counsel said, Well, we were meant to meet. Several lawyers mentioned me as somebody they should talk to. And to this day, I don't know who those lawyers were. These are people I obviously networked with who knew me and knew I was looking. I so I think that that's the story I tell students and young lawyers. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the advice that you give students? Our generation and the next generation has a different cadence as far as their expectation of when things should happen. And it's it's it's much more rapid than our generation. And sometimes that's doable and reasonable, and sometimes it's not. I'm not a financial won, but uh what I tell you. Even on goal setting, right, for their careers. Whatever, whatever. Yeah. Well, I'll say something on both topics, but really the first thing about goal setting is just you know, set yourself a five-year plan and a 10-year plan. I really did take it seriously, and check in with yourself every so often to see how you're doing or what you need to do more of or differently, you know, be intentional about your career is what I tell them, especially lawyers in companies. I say, is there experience you need to get where you are working, or or you need to develop or to increase uh your knowledge and skills to make yourself more marketable even within the organization? How do you get different assignments, you know, to to develop uh new skills? How do you navigate the corporate legal world? That's the kind of advice I I give when I'm mentoring uh students. You know, how do you gain experience? You know, I honestly did this myself as I moved from law careers in the smokestack industry to defense industry to tech and then pharmaceuticals. You know, I was always thinking ahead, okay, what where do I want to be next and what experience do I need to get? And then as far as financial planning, I always tell my kids, you know, you pay yourself first, you know, put money away before you see it. And if you don't see it and you put it away, then you won't miss it. You know, so it's a very simple advice. And the power of compounding is just you know, to keep earning money, and pretty soon it's it's real money. It's very simple, actually, you know, and I'm not one to take to invest in anything I don't understand. So I don't understand crypto, so I don't invest in crypto. So those are the kind of pieces of advice I give my kids. You know. Yeah, I'm a mom of five, and I engage in conversations with my young adults about just how hard it is to save money and affordability. And their persp some of their perspectives are not all of them, some of them is, you know, I had it easier because um things didn't cost as much, jobs were more plentiful. And so their perspective is that things have really changed and things have really become harder. And there's there's facts to point to that, and there's facts that point it was just as hard back then when we first started. So I don't work with students though. So I was curious what you're feeling or experiencing when you're engaging in these types of conversations with the next generation on their career planning professionally and and also financially. No, I I think some of it's still the same, but uh but I I would grant them that it is difficult. It's you know, I wouldn't want to be coming out of law school today, you know, with the advent of AI and how that's disrupting the legal profession and and everything else, the HR organiz, you know, a profession. Um, it would be very challenging for me. But that that's also a reflection of me and and you know my age, I guess, you know, uh but it is hard. Uh, you know, I I think we had it hard in a different kind of way. We may have forgotten it because it's been decades, but you know, it was hard to find jobs back then too, and you didn't have the internet and you had to you know re-look and and and um uh you know certain things weren't open to people uh back then. So, you know, it was hard in a different way. There's a lot of uncertainty, even with the interest rates. I bought my first house and interest rates were double digits. Yeah. So, you know, they're not double they're not double digits right now, right? So, but it but it is harder, and I don't want to minimize it. I want the podcast to be something that anybody that's curious about retirement or the next chapter to be thinking about some of these things as far as their career and their career progression and financially, you know, do I do that DoorDash and spend that $30? How much money is that? $30 here, $100 there. Some people go, well, that's nothing, that doesn't matter. But the compounding effect of that over three, five, 10 years and the interest that it makes, and if you just let it sit there, it's it can be significant. But when you're looking at a starter house being a million and a half dollars in the Bay Area, somebody that's going, what's $30 gonna do? That's not gonna make or break me and get me closer to the million, but I think it can. So and I think there's just little things that people, it's just a mindset shift, I think. Uh I think you're you're reminding me of something my late mom used to tell me all the time. You know, she was a school teacher and she'd say to me, and again, this wasn't original with her, I'd read it somewhere else. It's not what you make, it's what you keep. So and this coming from a school teacher, and she's right, you know, and yes, obviously what you make is important, but just as important as what you keep and what you don't spend. What you don't spend, yeah. That's what we say. Yeah, I'm a firm believer in that as well. So okay, any other nuggets or wisdom about next chapters? Take advantage of the time you have that you can do things. So I'm uh I do believe in that, you know, what people say there's a in retirement, there are go-go years, the go slow years, and the no-go years. And while you still have time in your go-go years, take advantage of that. And if travel is in that, in your plans, I think that's the time to be doing it. Enjoy life while you can. That's something that I live. Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think for some people that have been go, go, go, I am learning how to have joy because my life was so much about working and the title and the job and the career and the company and saving money because I'm I'm a big say I always I've always been a big saver. Um, I can spend too if I want, but I'm always like it, whenever I got a an increase, it's like, okay, sock over 50% of it away. I didn't need it before, sock 50% of it away or more. Um, and so I I saved early on in life. I don't know if that resonates with, but I'm such a serious person. I've been a serious person since I was I was young, and it served me well. It it helped shape the life that I, but I don't want to be so serious anymore. This is a chapter where I really want to have fun. Yeah, you know, but it's taking, you know, uh being open to experience. Yeah. So I told you about the cruise we took, and during that cruise, we were sitting there uh the evenings and they had ballroom dancing, and you know, um passengers were dancing, ballroom dance. We don't do ballroom dancing, but get what guess what lessons we're taking now for the next cruise. That's wonderful. Yeah, my husband and I took lessons for our wedding and then our daughter's wedding, and he loves it because he gets to in in ballroom dancing, the man leads and the woman has to follow. And my husband goes, This is the only time I get to boss you around, and I'll I'll anticipate a move with his hand. He goes, uh uh-uh, that's not what I'm gonna do. So it's early in our process, but I'm enjoying it. I took up tennis two years ago because I said, Okay, when you get around to retiring, let's be doing something that we are already halfway decent at. So I'm taking tennis lessons and we're playing together. We're having fun. So well, thank you. This episode we talked about loss and grief. I believe it's an important next chapter issue for us to discuss. I hope you found inspiration in Ted's story. Switching gears, I loved his idea of thinking about your next chapter in three phases. The go-go years, the go slow years, and the no go years. Thank you for listening and your support of our podcast. Go out and make your next chapter amazing. Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon.