Episode 5 - Habits that set you up for financial success

"You can't make and save time" - We speak with Geoff Kerr, SAP, USWeb/CKS, Regis McKenna executive with delightful tales about his thrilling work experiences and bold decision making.  He just stopped working - "literally overnight".  Listen to how that came about and how it's going.

Transcript

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Welcome to the next chapter Conversations, a podcast about real life stories from people designing a meaningful second act or retirement. My guests will talk about inflection points and the paths they took to their next chapters in life. The goal for the podcast is to create more dialogue and build community around the R word, a word that was really hard for me to wrap my head around when my own journey into my next chapter began. My guest is Jeff Kerr, a man with an impressive track record creating next chapters in his life. Jeff and I met 25 years ago when he was the head of communications and I was the VP of people for a rocket ship startup. And yes, I said 25 years ago. It's a long time. Jeff and I also have a lot in common. We both have blended families of five and are Uber project managers in our households. Jeff was masterful in leading corporate communications and pivoted to significant marketing roles, including head of global content. He went on to become the founder of Science on the Spectrum, an organization that supports individuals on the autism spectrum to pursue careers in science. He is also on the board of Mindful Life Project. Jeff blends his business savvy, high EQ, and friendly style to enable people and companies to thrive. With compassion and a smile on his face, I saw him navigate high-stakes corporate communications challenges with ease and humor. Welcome to the podcast, Jeff. Thank you for being with us today. Let's dive in with you telling us about yourself. I know, right? It's great to be here. I grew up in rural Vermont, but I spent 35 years in Silicon Valley. One quick anecdote, and we'll talk about it later in terms of career path. I met Regis McKenna at a uh conference he was speaking at, and he had just been written up in Time or Newsweek magazine. And I went up to him and I said, I want to work for you. And he hired me. That launched my career. I thought I was going to be an investment banker. And it's about meeting people. Yeah. Raised the family in the San Francisco Bay Area. And when my husband and I retired, we just spontaneously moved to Vermont and totally changed our lives inside out within about five months of making a decision. I have a blended family. We call it the Gay Brady Bunch. I have three boys. My husband has two lovely women. Our family's been together going on 19 years. I had an amazing career that just was all over the map. And we'll talk about how and why that happened. And I'm forever grateful for that. I am 66. My last full-time job was at SAP, and they retired me. It was a great opportunity. Didn't see it coming, shocked the heck out of me. But it was sort of a wake-up call. I was the head of content in the office of the CEO. And that was an individual contributor role. I think they were getting me ready to retire. Okay. Did they tell you that ahead of time? No, they didn't. I wanted to stay at SAP till I retired, till I was 65. But they were like, your time is up and it's time to go. And then I wrote every CEO I had ever worked with, and I did a self-audit when I left. It was only 59 and a half. And you know, what was I good at? What was my magic? What why did you like working with me? Why did you hire me? Jonathan Becker was one of them. Yeah. The feedback and insight I got was just incredibly helpful and really perfectly timed for that time in my life. And I found an amazing consulting job with an executive that I'd wanted, he and I'd wanted to work together for like 15 years. And he's like, Jeff, you're leaving. This is the time to come and help me. And I worked with him in rebranding a company. I sat on a public board for an energy company. And these opportunities just kind of fell in my lap from one thing to the next. It was all through these amazing relationships. And then the end cap was working with an established institution in San Francisco that needed to go from a for-profit corporation, 100-year-old company to a nonprofit. How do you do that? So I worked with the chairman and figuring out how to make that happen. I was going to do that for about three years, and then it kept getting delayed. And my husband had just retired. And I went to him and I said, This big project's going to be delayed two years. What are we going to do? And he's like, Stop. Just don't renew your contract. Let's just retire together. And I retired three or four years sooner than I expected, literally overnight. And that was a big shock. I think it was a big job with a big team to nothing. It was sort of this gradual transition. Tell us about the shock. What was shocking? What was Dan? My husband had an amazing career on Wall Street and in the nonprofit sector. And he had just left after 14 years running a nonprofit in San Francisco. And I was rebranding this company and working with this other publishing company and traveling, making more money than I had ever done before. He was retired, and we had these different schedules and different mindsets. And he's all about exercise and health and sleep and family and all the things that were big priorities for me. And then he says, Stop. Why don't we just stop? And I'm like, okay. And I did. And all of a sudden, retirement was there in front of me. Luckily, we were renovating a home on Lake Champlain in Vermont, 3,000 miles away. And I became the project manager of that large project, very far away. And that preoccupied my time. Then when we finished the house two years later in 2023, we're sitting in the new house on the lake and we're about ready to go back to San Francisco for the winter. We were by coastal for a long time. Had this great routine. We'd be in San Francisco and the West Coast in the winter and the lake and the summer in Vermont. We've got great communities on both coasts, West Coast Vermont, West Coast of California. And Dan's looking at the sunset and he goes, Why don't we just live in Vermont? I mean, life would be so simple. We get rid of everything in San Francisco. We've got lots of friends there, and we've got places to stay, and we're never really home in the winter anyway. And in five months, he's like, Let's do this. I'm like, okay, this is crazy. You know, and within five months, we got our house ready, put it on the market, sold it really quick, got rid of all our junk. Most of it, most of it. They've they, you know, had the children walk through the house, pick all the art and things that they wanted, which is a great thing to do. I advise everybody to do it while you're alive and healthy, and everyone has good relationships. And it was a wonderful, catharti experience having a mixed family going through the house, putting their names in things or whatever. Yeah. And it was really fun. We packed up a moving van that had five stops around the country for each of the kids, their stuff and our junk, and took the dog and got on a plane and walked away from San Francisco into a 900 square foot cabin on a lake down from a 2400 square foot. I mean, he does that. Wow. He really has these great ideas. He has such a strong vision of things. And I'm I have a vision, but I'm a tactician too, and I like to get things done. He's a big planner too, but he has this bigger vision. You know, he's not afraid to ask that tough question. Yeah. And the hardest, most difficult part to this day is being further away from our children, not having family just down the road or a couple hours away. But I'm back in the Bay Area all the time. I sit on a board and we travel a lot, and they all come to see us in Vermont. So I'm fortunate enough that I'm healthy enough and can travel whenever I want to and need to. Yeah. Our lives are so much healthier because of it. Tell me about that. Healthier than San Francisco. I mean, San Francisco. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, we had, you know, for him, his experience was very different than mine. I was a bit big swimmer and did a lot of yoga and did all that sort of very San Francisco West Coast kind of stuff. Both lifestyles were healthy, but the stress is so different. We live in a place where it's just these amazing vistas of the lake and the mountains and the drama of a very large lake and a little house on a cliff, amazing sunsets, just the weather, everything is so dramatically different and slower. Nothing is close in Vermont. Everything is 30 to 45 minutes away, and they're beautiful drives, rolling hills, and you got you and the dog and Dan in the car, and you know, you got to go to town, and that's 35, 40 minutes away. Everything's far away, and you can't be in a hurry. We were just in San Francisco, and and it takes 20, 30 minutes to get across town. Vermont is rolling hills, and traffic is a tractor in the way, or uh a hay truck. We found all these lovely back roads, how to get to the post office or get to the gym or whatever. Everything has slowed down, and that has made us healthier. Yeah. I'm outdoors actually more in Vermont than I think I was in San Francisco. And it's because life has slowed down and we're so much more mindful of our health. I've reconnected with many old friends that I grew up with that have also gone back to Vermont. Rich relationships. I don't miss Silicon Valley. I don't miss the big responsibility and all the complicated relationships of all they were all amazing. And that's what got all my best parts of my career. You have the time to really connect with people, and we've met lots of people. We're sort of this, you know, rural gay couple on a lake in the middle of nowhere. And I think we're kind of an anomaly. And we have a really cute dog, and we have a lovely family. Everyone loves meeting our kids and grandchildren. What's your dog's name? What kind of dog? His name is Templeton. I know that's from Charlotte's Webb. Exactly. Oh, aren't you a well-read. Yes. Yes, Templeton. Um I had a cow when I was little. And a cow, a baby cow, and I was reading Charlotte's Webb. I must have been 10 or 11 years old. And I named the cow Templeton. No. Yes, because I was reading that book and I was so in love with that book. I read that book over and over again. I just loved the friendship. That was one of my favorite books growing up. So you're the only other person, Jeff, I know that's named a pet Templeton. Same here. I've never known anyone else that has done that. And he's in the nice Templeton, and he's a long-haired, long-haired dachshund poodle, shitsu, mutt. And our son got him in college. And all of a sudden, he's in Vermont at nine years old. The first time he saw snow, he was leaping like a gazelle. It's the only video I've ever put on TikTok. And I got like 10,000 videos or likes. And I put it to some funny music because he's just bouncing. He didn't know what to do with the snow. So he's happy. He's he's loving it there too. He's happier, he's healthier. We spend 40 years building careers and saving money, which is important, but you need to make time in your life to enjoy the people you love, your family, your friends, your partner, your animals. And we find we're just like sitting staring at the lake, trying to read a book, and you're just sitting there looking at and you're mouth wide mouth wide open for the for those listening. He just had a mouth wide open and awe, very, very joyful. You talked about the relationships and the fact that you had lived there in Vermont gives you a head start creating community, you know, right, and friendships. How was it for your partner though? Because he didn't grow up there. And so all these people, I mean, it's good, you're like the entry point. Tell us about creating the relationships as a couple and as a family and coming into the community. Yeah. Well, you gotta have community. And Dan is a master at building community and friends. So he went to Middlebury College, which is just 40, 35 minutes down the road from where we live. And his his Middlebury posse moved there. They've all retired there. So there are like five, six people. They're all sort of in the same age group. Yeah. And they all retired there a little before we did. And I think that was part of his decision is we have this great community on the West Coast in San Francisco in the Bay Area, but we also have this Vermont community that we've had because we've we're always spending our summers. And so he had a built-in community probably bigger than mine. And we've blended his friends and my friends. We're really fun to have these blended friendships that just burgeon again. You go all these years without talking to your best friend from third grade, and now we call them geezer gabs. And we geezer gabs and grub every couple of weeks. We meet at some little diner in the middle of nowhere and just talk and reminisce. And there are two of us. We might we want to do a book, and we laugh and we cry, and and we're all retired, and we all worked hard and earned our time. And knock on wood, man. It's so that community aspect, I think, is very important to retiring and having some kind of baseline. We had 65 house guests this summer. Wow. I think that speaks volumes. Yeah. My oldest daughter lives in Denver and they get a lot of visitors. They have this wall. When you first walk into their house and they have a small Polaroid camera, every guest gets a picture and they put the all the pictures on the wall. It's a really idea. So much fun. And they get to look back and see everybody who's visited them. And when you walk in, it's so welcoming. You immediately start engaging. Right? Isn't it? I was wondering if there was an app or something, because you know, you have an address book and you always lose it, or people know. But I was thinking if there's something digital like that. Yeah, it's a nice little small, it's not the big Polaroids. Yeah, it's the small little square ones. He's a design guy, so it's very well done. When you walk in, it's actually like a piece of art. And it and it speaks to how important their family and community is, and every every person that visits them. I'm still no idea. Yeah, you should. You should really and anybody listening to the podcast, like it's such it's such a welcoming feeling right when you walk in the door. You talked a little bit about how hard you worked, and you and your geese are friends. Um, and I love that. Tell us about the financial planning aspects of this, because you had planned to retire later than it actually happened. And you know, through a series of processes, you embraced it. But that's got to be a little unsettling to have retirement at your footsteps earlier than you thought, especially from a financial aspect, right? Your highest earning years for most people, at least this is what the experts say. I'm no expert, is on the back end of your life, right? So, and so to lose three or four or however many years and have that come sooner can be like, oh, gee. Right. I had a financial plan till I was 65. We have a financial advisor, and and these were the big earning years, didn't have a lot of expenses. My youngest had just finished college. The real turning point for us was when Dan's like, you need to stop, just stop working and let's start retirement now. It really came out of a conversation I'd had with him where I turned to him and I was like, I can always make money and save money. We're we're built for that when you have a good, solid career and we're trained to save a lot of money for the future. But you can't make and save time when you have a big family and a growing family and a wonderful, gracious partner. You're like, wait a minute, we're not getting any younger. And Dan had had a near heart attack 10 years ago, and just and he's really healthy, he's a runner, and all it's just one of those freak things. Just that comment alone and the conversation around saving money, saving time. I always said I have this hierarchy of priorities of family, love, career. It was always family and partnership and self, then career. Financial planning was whatever, whatever the number is. In the long scheme of things, having quality time to be with the people you love and in the places you love is really rewarding and more than a bank account. So worked out, and it always works out. You know, it's one of those things my father would say, you'll always spend what's in your checking accounts. So you do want, you want to have a number, you need to have a number. So you had a number. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and we far exceeded it, even with my retiring early, or we have a really good financial advisor, and we don't live an extravagant life. I think some probably people think we do, but I wasn't retiring so I could have the big place on the ocean. You see these people going to these bigger houses or more expensive lifestyles or whatever, and we didn't need that. And I'm a thrifter, all my clothes are used. I have really good wardrobe. Don't don't tell anyone all my clothes were like secondhand. I buy them at really nice thrift shops. What was your philosophy? Let's talk about the the saving and the money philosophy, but I also want to get to the philosophy and beliefs that guided your life choices. Let's stick with money right now. Uh, so you have a home in San Francisco, you have a place in Vermont. You don't have to shop secondhand, you don't have to do the thread. But no, but you're choosing to do that. So tell us about your approach to saving money and how you frame it in your mind. Because I think this could be helpful for people. Because the podcast isn't just about people that are retired, it's also about people thinking about retirement. And I want to have there be more, yes, I want people because if you're retired, some of this stuff is habits that you've built up over a lifetime. And I want people to think about or be open to creating new habits. So on the back end, when they do have their next chapter, they do want to retire, they've set themselves up for it because the financial piece of it is big. So tell us about your mindset around shopping at second hand, right? When you didn't have when you didn't have to. I always bought used cars. I mean, who would know? So why? Why tell us why? Because you save a lot more money that way. I didn't need to have the latest Volvo or Audi or whatever. I didn't need the flashy news stuff. I had a few really nice suits, custom suits, that type of thing for work. But you know, all the shirts and the ties, the things that looked really elegant and had really good value were generally bought in a high-end thrift shop, but half the price. Yeah. And if you have a good sense of quality, whether it's furniture or clothing or a car, you know, I I collected herma's ties. But you don't have to go to the herma's store and buy brand new Hermay's ties. Did somebody teach you that, or did you just Well, my parents were very frugal. They had some privilege, but I grew up in a house in Vermont that my parents had built in the 60s, and you would think it was built now. It was upcycled wood and brick from an old barn and an old cheese factory. I thought we lived in a used house. It was this house in the middle of a meadow, in the side of a mountain, uh banged up. Floors and the dining room was red barn wood from a barn. The kitchen was wood from an old milk house. And we're in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. It was on the side of a mountain, meadows and lots of dogs and horses. And I had friends who their parents had these big, modern, brand new houses. And I thought, oh, we live in this little used house. But you look at it now and it's gorgeous. People kill for that kind of architecture or used wood or whatever. Like what's what style do you have to have to be able to pull all those pieces together and have it be gorgeous? Yeah. Right? I'm closing my eyes now and seeing those big red barn doors. Yeah. I mean, it was rough wood on the walls, beautiful. But then we had a family heirloom dining room table that sat 14 people in the middle of it in an old brick fireplace with an old beam over it. It looked like the house was 100 years old and it was maybe 10 years old. Yeah. I I was always surrounded by quality things. Then I realized I didn't have to pay a lot for them. If you take care of things, they last forever. I mean, I have ties. I have, oh yeah. You and I worked for a CEO. I've never had a clean shirt or a tie. I know. Yeah. And I carried, if you look at all those interviews. I used to remember you running around trying to keep that train moving, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. There are two herma's ties, a bright orange one and a bright green one. Yeah. I think I have it here. I mean, that was in 1996, 97. And I had that tie probably for 10 years. And I carried two hermaise ties and two J Press shirt, white shirts. Yeah. In my briefcase. I always traveled with him and he always needed to look presentable. And I'm always tying his tie in the green room before he'd go in. Yeah, right. So did your mom shop in secondhand stores or your grandma? Okay. All right. So you just decided that was a smart way to spend your money and to keep the cash in the bank. And you can still look good and stylish. You don't have to buy it brand new. So the the financial part of it and being frugal, there's that part in planning for retirement. But I wrote a few things down thinking about this. It's creating some habits that will spill over after you're working. And that's how you save and spend money. Do you have a philosophy or beliefs that you rely on to guide your life choices? Okay, let's hear about that. It's that doors are always open for you. Opportunities are all always there. You need to be present and have to recognize them. You know, we're told to have a plan. I was going to be an investment banker. I was going to go to New York. I was going to do all that. And then I was trying to figure out where I was going to go, Boston or New York, for an investment bank after college. And I met a young entrepreneur. And he took me to dinner. And he says, You don't want to be a banker. You need to get into computers and high tech. And I'm like, Wow, what's that? He said, just give it a try. You can always become an investment banker. So for me, it was you can do all the planning and create all these guardrails and focus. But for me, opportunities were right there in front of me. Like that one, thinking I was going to do one thing and I did another. Reading about Regis McKenna and seeing him at a conference. And those were the days when people spoke at conferences and they didn't get flooded at the end. I just walked right up to him and said, I don't I don't know what this PR marketing thing is that you do, but the way you talk about the businesses you're impacting, I just said I want to work for you. And then all of a sudden I get a phone call from a woman in Boston. I'm like 22 years old. We sat in the park in Boston Commons. We interviewed, they had not opened an office yet. And it turned out we were skiers. The East Coast thing kind of overlapped. She said, I think you'd be really good in PR and marketing. I knew nothing about it. And she hired me as her first office hire, and we helped launch the Macintosh. Wow. I mean, how does that happen? And then I met Andy Cunningham. She was the head of the Apple team, and I was just a peon. Yeah. And I was on a sailboat, and I came in after a sailboat race and on a dock and saw a little rocking boat that a kid was rocking in instead of a horse. And I went to the guy and struck up a relationship, and I bought the rights to the little toy, and I started a toy company. Part-time while I was at Regis McKenna. How old were you? 24. Wow. And I had these little wooden rocking boats built in my little hometown. My dad's like, oh, call blah blah blah at Dirt Road. Maybe they'll know how you can make these boats. I'm not a woodworker, but I met these Vermont woodworkers and they're like, sure, we'll figure this out. And I had ads in the back of New Yorker and Sailing Magazine and Smithsonian. It was just mail order. I did it on the weekends, and and then I didn't end Regis McKenna on a high note. My fault. I was a little full of hubris and arrogance. That's another podcast. Stories of Silicon Valley. Okay, but now you've now you've introduced Apple and launching the Macintosh. Yes, and the team. Andy Cunningham and her team and go to do the rocker, the little toy rockers, for about five years. But Andy's husband was in the toy business. And so we always stayed in touch. And then one day I get a phone call from Andy Cunningham going, Jeff, do you know anything about routers? I'm like, Do I know routers? I know everything about routers. Andy hires me, moves me to Palo Alto, and I walk into the office, and they're talking about networking routers. I'm talking about wood routers that you cut wood with. I'm like, oh my God, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was hired to work with three comm about routers and networking. And I knew nothing about computer routers. How did you get up to speed up? Because there's all these people that think that you're an expert on routers. Who did you go to? What did you do to like I would go to the people at 3COM and I was like, tell me about your technology. You know, they would love to talk about it. It was in the days when people would take time. And yeah, I would just sit down at a time where the technology was changing so quickly, as it always has. You just stay curious. You're you're open to learn. I was with Andy's firm for about four years, and I went to Andy and said, I'm done. I need to move on. I'm at the height of my career at the agency. I just quit and I need to do something else. And I get a call from a client, and it was Toby Corey. And I had worked with him in an agency capacity. And he goes, Look, we're starting US Web. Yeah. We want you to come and do communications. And I literally walked out of Cunningham into US Web in like 48 hours. Wow. And that's how things happened. You asked earlier about a highlight of my career, it was obviously being part of the IPO, it was just an amazing experience. But also it was a low point. Yeah. There was a part at the very end where there was not a lot of integrity and and honesty. And that wasn't Toby, and it was other leadership that I had a real run in. Well, we had to we had to bring in the new CEO. Yeah, I had to write the press release. I remember the scramble after the MSNBC interview and coming in. And I remember you you've running around. And I've just felt so bad for what everything that was happening. And then I said, what's happening? They're like, he can't be CEO anymore. And the mad scrambled to find someone else. We were a publicly traded company. The stakes were so high. And to have that happen so publicly. I don't know any other organization that I can think of, and I'm not an expert by any means that had ever had that kind of a PR situation where the CEO what I mean, he went on and said he what he believed in UFOs. Time travel. Time travel and UFOs, right? And they had come to visit him. Right. And that they had influenced certain kinds of technology, fiber technology. Right. I mean, nowadays our stock would have probably gone up, right? The difference in time, right? But then the mad scrambled to find a new CEO. And then he and I didn't get along. He and I didn't get along either. Oh my and the amount of acquisitions we can't absorb and integrate these acquisitions. Let's be clear about the point of the acquisitions. Is it the technology? Is it the people? Is it both? Is it the market? Like what are we trying to accomplish? Well, right, but the money is correlated to either the technology, the people, trying to more get more market share, whatever, or some combination of all three of those, right? But sometimes it would be like, we don't need any of the people, but we just want the technology and we want to embed it into it. Right. And I'm like, fine, let's be clear with that. Let's be clear with everybody and let's structure the deal that way. Yeah. Right. If we don't want their people, let's get them a nice severance package. Let's have them come on for a transition and let's be clear with everybody about what we're doing. Let's let's have integrity because we actually did that. I believe we did the best we could with that in the early days when we would go in and we would say, hey, this is the purpose. We would be clear about that. And then later on it changed. And then I looked at it and I'm like, this place is going to implode. That was high stakes, though. And that's when I saw you do a very good job. Those are defining moments in your career in your life when something so unexpected and such high stakes and with worldwide attention in the press. And you have to keep your cool. You were running around, but there was a level of calmness I saw with you. Yeah. But also a level of intent. You were very steady. Shepherding the company through that, I can imagine is probably one of your biggest accomplishments. You asked about tenants about life and stuff like that, is surround yourself with honest, authentic people. Yeah. And I can remember flying around the world with Bob, that other guy who bought that company. Uh Whitman Hart. Whitman Hart. So I when that happened, when that when that happened, I said, I'm done. Yeah. I remember saying, This isn't right for shareholders. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And they they were like front end, back end, customer, customer, whatever. And I remember walking into the first institutional investor in Boston, and he's mouthing WTF to me. And on the way back, we're in the private jet, and they're all celebrating and drinking champagne. And the stock has gone like from 75 to 10 in a week. And I could be exaggerating, but it was a downward trend. So I wrote on a napkin, I'm done. And I handed it to Bob in the plane. And I went in and sat with the pilots on a jump seat. And as we're coming into San Francisco, it's beautiful sunset. We're coming into runway two. We're all strapped in. And all of a sudden, all the alarms in the cockpit go off. We were going to land on top of another plane. And there's a plane under us. So they had to do a sharp upright turn. And you hear all this clutter and screaming in the back. And I open the cockpit door and the bobs and everybody, glass, food, the flight attendant, they're all pushed up against the back wall where the bathroom door is because they weren't buckled in and they were drinking and celebrating, and there's food all over the place. And like, yeah, good call, Jeff. And the jet lands, and there are like six limousines lined up, and we're all getting into our car and driver. I'm like, it's over. And I walked into the office on that Monday or whatever. Did he talk to you about that? Or did he say that? Oh, yes. So that day he didn't. He had a temper. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm not talking to you until we're in the office and I have people around me. Right. But I'm done. And he comes into my office and he starts yelling at me. You remember those officers were all glass? Yes. My whole team is right there. And he's like pounding on my desk. And he's like, I'll write you a check. I'll give you what do you how much money do you want? I'll give you stock. I'm like, it's not about that. I'm done. What are your beliefs and guiding values in life that help you with your decision making? Strong, solid relationships, yeah, where truth, authenticity, and integrity come first, not money, not title. And I stuck to that. You've seen all the examples. Yes. And go with your gut and your heart. And you don't know that earlier on in your career, but once you've had enough experience meeting people, so it's it's the integrity and having the courage to say no and walk away and know and have the confidence in your ability and your network and your relationships and yourself. Yeah, wow. It worked out. So what three things would you tell your pre-retirement self? Don't be so hard on yourself. You've accomplished more than you think. Be more present. It really matters. And then if you surround yourself with the right people and follow your instincts, you know, and you got to build a good career and skill sets and all that. It works out. If you're not being authentic, if you're trying to cut corners and do it all for the wrong reasons, it's sometimes you're gonna make some bad choices. And we all make bad decisions. And after about six months, the CEO was crazy. I'm like, no, no, I'm out of here. I I can't help you. And I'm sorry, Sequoia. You brought me in, but this is beyond help. And they ended up firing actually before I left. You gotta sound yourself with the right people, with good people. And there's so many good people out there that really matters. And and and run from the ones that aren't, right? Yeah, just call it and just if that little spitey sense there is going, oh, something's not right. It's you're probably right. Listen to it, right? Yeah. Even if others, even if others don't, people look for validation in those moments. And sometimes you're just not going to get it because other people aren't seeing it yet, or they have a different compass than you, and following your instincts is smart. Yeah. What wishes and hopes do you have for yourself in your next chapter? That's such a great question. You got me all emotional. Um a lot. Right now it's really about family. For me, it's just anything and everything for them and us, however, we can spend quality of time. That's the other thing. It's not the quantity of time with family and friends, it's the quality that changes everything. My hopes and dreams is that quality of time with the people you love. With my husband, who's just on the other side of the door right now, he's probably got his ear up to the door. Um, you know, my son, we went and went to museums yesterday, and he's playing me all his favorite playlists, and he's 32 years old, and he's neurodivergent, he's on the spectrum, and he's an arborist, he's really into trees and bugs. We spent the whole day, and it was all about him, and it just fills your heart. Yeah, and I couldn't do that if I was working. You can do that when you're retired. So it's that quality of time. We are sitting at the dinner table, we're looking at the sun go down over Lake Champlain, and we're in complete disbelief that we have each other, we've got our dog, we have this pretty little place on the lake. Our family is happy, they're they're working hard, they they're making families, or they're in love in their own ways, and we just want to be a part of that. Yeah, so how do we make the time and the space for that? We had our entire family, all 14 of us, at the lake this summer. It was chaos. It was all about being together, and they all got along, and they're coming back. That's a good thing. And what can you do to just be healthier? Yeah, it's meditation, it's walking, it's eating well, with a few really good cocktails here and there, and reconnecting with friends. We haven't seen each other in years, and writing, painting and writing. So, what are you writing? All these amazing stories. That would be the fourth part of it. You can do short stories too. That's how I'll do it. Yeah, some of my favorite books are short stories. Yeah, that's probably what it would be. I would rate it, yeah. Well, I can't wait to see what you're painting. Well, I did a painting in college, and this is how things happen and how things manifest themselves. And I'm not into all of that sort of thing, but when I went to college, my parents gave me a beautiful book on Vermont. There was a picture looking west over Lake Champlain and over the Adirondack Mountains with the Alpen glow. So the mountains are kind of purpley blue, the lake is silvery. And I chose one of those photographs and I painted it. I still have the book and I have the grid that I used, and that's the view of our house. It is, I am telling you, if I showed you that picture, it is the view from our dock. Do you still have it? No. So you have to paint it again. Exactly. Okay. When we moved to Vermont, you know, I'm just like, and I've always known that that was the view from my parents' house, but they didn't have it then. Yeah. I can't wait to say it. That's a good that's that's a good thing to think about doing it. I enjoyed this so much. Thank you. This has really been fun recently. So much fun. Yeah. Wow, I can't even imagine what it must have been like on that airplane ride. Jeff's next chapter has been full of spontaneity and community building. I admire his practice of enjoying the moment and seeing that life is full of open doors. You just need to be present enough to see them and open them. It was such a joy to discover that Jeff and I didn't miss a beat reconnecting and reigniting our friendship. Did you know it's been about 10 years since we last spoke? I hope this inspires you to reach out to someone in your life that you've been thinking about. If so, I hope it's as fabulous for you as it's been for us. I'm happy to share that Jeff is coming to San Francisco next month, and we're planning on getting together with others we used to work with at SAP. We're calling it Slap Happy Sappies. Courtney, I know, but this is what happens when you get together with old friends. And let's face it, life is just more fun with friends. Do you have a story to share or a suggestion for the podcast? If so, we'd love to hear from you. Visit us at next chapter conversations dot com powered by GoDaddy. Until next time, remember, today is a gift. Go out and treat yourself.