Next Chapter Conversations
For anyone curious about second acts and retirement.
The goal of the podcast is to create community and dialog. Guests speak candidly about the financial and psychological aspects of retirement. They'll talk about the processes they followed, and the aspects of planning, healthcare, taxes, volunteering, hobbies and even going back to work. Happy and unexpected surprises are revealed!
Next Chapter Conversations
Episode 7 - Be brave, put yourself out there! "You've got to tell people what you want."
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Listen to Shawn Tomasello, Chief Commercial officer at Kite & Pharmacyclics, president at Celgene & national director at Genetech talk about her career path. She shares her approach on how she gained her board roles - 14 in all!
My guest is Sean Tomasello, who I had the pleasure of working with when she became the first female National Director of Hematology for Retuxent, Genentech's $1.7 billion revenue therapy to treat non-Hodgkins lymphoma. What impressed me most about Sean was her leadership style and her ability to learn the business and landscape very quickly. I admired her for her can-do attitude, her ability to spot and develop talent, and partner with others to enable her franchise to thrive. Her sense of humor and her genuine commitment to doing the right thing made her someone I trusted and relied on for advice. Since leaving Genentech, Sean went on to become president and then chief commercial officer and was instrumental in two successful biotech acquisitions. She took a stab at retiring in 2015 and was wooed back into a new commercial organization with a mission to cure cancer. Sean successfully led that commercial organization and continues to be active in the industry. I'm thrilled to have Sean join the podcast today to share her phenomenal journey and her many next chapters. Welcome to the podcast, Sean. Thank you for being with us today. Let's start with you telling us about yourself.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me, and I'm really honored to be connected with you again. We had really good juju when we worked together at Genentech, and we got a lot of great stuff done. Yeah. And so yeah, so my name is Sean Tomasello, and I have spent my entire professional career in first pharma and then biotech. So I was lucky enough right out of college to get a job with Pfizer Laboratories as a field representative. And then in the mid to late 80s, when biotech was, I would say, not necessarily born, but became a thing, I had just finished my MBA and my last big project was on the birth of biotech. And it focused on Genentech and Amgen. So I was very happy with the role that I had in Pharma, had a great boss, loved my customers, loved my job. And a recruiter called about Genentech, and I gave them my, hey, I'm really happy with everything about my job, my boss, my blah, blah, blah. The only thing I would think about doing is an opportunity in biotech, and that's probably not going to come to me in Paducah, Kentucky. And he said, Well, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but it's Genentech. I'm like, where do I go? So I had a great interview and I'll never forget it. And the short version of the story was I got the role. I was so happy to be getting into biotech. Genentech was very different than the environment that I had been raised in. My first job was in Pfizer. Before that, I worked at Procter and Gamble. So I was in very buttoned-up, rules-oriented organizations. And Genentech was, you know, innovative, free thinking, get the job done. We don't have a whole lot of SOPs if we had any. And it was like I found the perfect landing spot for me. So I was there for 17 years and did a lot of different roles at Genentech. I'll always be incredibly grateful for that experience. But as the company grew, I realized that I'm not a big company gal. And I just got this, had this great experience with a woman named Lindsay Luke who was at Selgene. And it was out in California in Sonoma at a hematology update for executives. And we just really clicked and had a great conversations about oncology and hematology. And two weeks later, somebody from Selgene called me about coming there and helping them build their company. And honestly, if I hadn't met Lindsay Luke, I wouldn't know anything about Selgene. But I was so impressed with her professionalism and the relationship she had. I said, Look, I'm not leaving. I'm not looking to leave. I haven't interviewed in 16 years, but I'm coming to the East Coast in two weeks for a meeting. And I can come over in the late afternoon. But I need to be honest with you, I'm not looking to make a change. And they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just come and come and check us out. I'm like, all right, fine. So so then I left Genentech, never thinking I would ever leave, and went to help build Selgene. I think I was there nearly 10 years. It was a great experience. It was a very small company when I got there. And that is where I thrive. I like to know the people, I like to know who I'm working with. I like to build a tribe. And that gets harder and harder to do when you're talking about thousands and thousands of people, right? You can do it, but it's much more difficult. Yeah. So I was the the president of the Americas, and a company called Pharmacyclics called, and they were looking for a chief commercial officer. And that would have been like my next role, possibly at Cell Gene. And I thought, you know what? Might be time for me to go to a smaller company again. So I I went there and you know, a lot of the people that were at Pharmacyclics worked for me at either Genentech or Selgene. Yes. So it's kind of like going home again. And 11 months later, we transacted the company to AB. So I was out of a job, and it was a beautiful experience. The people, the the teams were amazing. I had folks that I'd worked with before that I really trusted. And it was financially a really, really positive thing for my family. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Which I was congratulating, congratulations, because that's not easy when you take risks on startups and small companies. Yeah, you don't know where they're going to go, right? And you put your whole heart and soul and you bring people that you've worked with and you you do the right things and you work really hard. And sometimes it doesn't always work out.
SPEAKER_01But when it doesn't science doesn't work out, and you can't do anything about that. You can't. Yeah. So I retired. I retired the first time. And I'll just put to the punchline. I'm a retirement failure.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, there's no failure. It's your life. You get to decide. No, don't say that you're a failure. You're not.
SPEAKER_01But retirement is really not, it just wasn't for me. Maybe I just wasn't ready at that point in time, but I thought I was. And so I went about my business, you know, playing more tennis and reading more books and keeping myself busy, spending a lot more time with my husband, who had been unbelievably supportive for, you know, we've been married 31 years, going on 31 years. And, you know, there was never an opportunity that came our way from my career perspective where he was like, Oh, I don't know. He was always, yeah, say yes, you can do it. Let's go do it.
SPEAKER_02I remember meeting him a couple of times and actually meeting him at your house in Half Moon Bay. And you and I drove out there, and what a wonderful man. And he is larger than life, larger than life, a big soul. But he lit up when you walked into the room. Like the love he always did. The love and the partnership that the two of you had and have, I'm sure, I admired. So um, thank you.
SPEAKER_01I feel very blessed to have received that kind of love. I think some people go their whole life and don't really find that. A lot of people do, but I'm very, very grateful and incredibly in the moment about it. I realize how how special it is, really. So but anyhow, he and I were, you know, just hanging out. And so I got a call from Saul Bearer, who was one of my CEOs, and he's one of the founders of of Selgene. And he said, I gave your name to this guy named Ari Beldegren, and he might call you. He's looking for a chief commercial officer, and he asked me who to call, who was the best that I knew. And I said, You need to call Sean Tomasello, but she's gonna tell you no. And uh I'm I'm saying a theme here. Yeah, so he yeah, he called and I said, you know, I'm really I'm retired. Um, I looked at your company. This is Kite Pharma, and I love what you're doing. I would love to meet you and I can help you build a team. And he he's like, Well, okay. So, you know, we were supposed to meet for a few just a few minutes and we ended up spending a good amount of time together. And um, so I said, Look, I'm never gonna work for somebody again, but I would love to consult with you and help you build just a world-class team and watch this thing just skyrocket because it's amazing. This is gonna make history. I want to be part of history one more time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I tell my husband, I'm going out to Santa Monica, but not for very long. It was once I got under the hood and I met his executive team and the scientists, and it was like catnip. I was like, oh no, I have to do this. This is definitely gonna change people's lives in a way that is even bigger than what I've been honored to do in the past.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, long story short, I started building my team. One of our analysts that covered the company, he described me as Mary Poppins. She just keeps pulling stuff out of the bag. You know, here's this person, here's that person, not just people, but highly, highly accomplished professionals because it was so special what we had to do, which was build a completely different business model that never existed before. So it was really hard. And the days were long, the nights were long, and all the things, experiences we had in the past, a lot of them didn't apply for the future. So you had to figure out what the future was going to look like. And you're never totally sure you're right until you test it, right? Right, right. So, hey, we we got it, we got it out there, and patients are living today because of it with the cell therapy being successful. And so that was almost three years though that I was out in Santa Monica and going.
SPEAKER_02Did you relocate? Did no no?
SPEAKER_01I am I am a professional commuter. Okay, but you know, I had an apartment, yeah. Um, you know, these biotechs, you you you go and you your intention is to build it to last, yeah, but people come along and want to buy it sometimes, right? Yeah, and they do, you know, my kids were at a point where I'm like, no, we're not doing that anymore. We did that a lot, but we're not doing that anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So anyhow, um So what was your can I can I ask you a question?
SPEAKER_02What was your schedule? Were you gone Monday through Friday? Were you gone Monday through Thursday? Like how did you how did you make it work for it?
SPEAKER_01I didn't come home. I didn't come home every weekend, especially with kite. You know, when at kite, I didn't have small children at home anymore. Yeah, um, so I would stay, you know, sometimes two months and then come home. And then my husband, of course, could come out there. It was easier for him to come out there too. So um, we just, you know, we just made it work. And it was very intense. And, you know, my my executive team that that was out there working with me, we had all worked together before, minus one, which was my head of Europe, and he fit right in. Yeah. And, you know, it was all hands on deck. Um, and thank goodness, you know, we were all in it together. Nobody crawled out of the foxhole when things got tight. And um, it was tense though. It it but it was worth every second of it. It was an unbelievable experience that I'm really grateful for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Was your husband working full-time too, still? Or what was he doing? No, he started working at ATT when he was 19 as a co-op. So all of that time uh went towards his retirement eligibility. So I think he retired at like 55 or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you're out in Santa Monica working a month or two at a time. What's he doing? Like, what's his life and where's the connections for the two of you?
SPEAKER_01Oh, he's playing golf. He's you know, we have a son in college at that point in time. We have adult children, we have grandchildren in Auburn. So he was very busy. Okay, and we, you know, he was totally um connected and and needed in our neighborhood, you know. If somebody needed a sprinkler repaired, he repaired the sprinkler. If someone needed a garage door opener, he did the garage door opener.
SPEAKER_02So um he's just he was a very I love people like I love people like that, right? That are available and they're that's just there to be of service of people. So okay, but you made it work.
SPEAKER_01We made it work, yeah. You know, it was fun and we both had a great time. We traveled a lot together, and uh I I would do it again. It it was amazing, it really was. And um, when I retired in 2015, um I got on my first two boards because that's what I wanted to do. I knew that somehow I needed to, in my mind, I wanted to be engaged but not enslaved, right? Um, so I I didn't want to completely leave what I loved because it really never felt like work. I mean, there were stressful days, but I really loved what I did and I love the people and you know the passion around the science, and um it was just worthwhile work, that's all I can say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you retired, so you retired in 15.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then and then in yeah, and then in two then I went in 2000 late, like December 2015, I think it was. Don't don't hold me to that, I'm bad on dates. But from 2016 to 2018, I was at kite. And so, long story short, I went to be a consultant, but then I called Ari one day and I'm like, you know that job that you offered me? I think I want it now. He's like, Okay, okay, I love that you can always change your mind, right? You did, yeah. I was like, Oh, I have to do this. This is amazing. These people are so good and so so dedicated. Um, it it was hard, but it was really fun. And um, so then, you know, after then Gilead acquired Kite. And you know, Gilead's a great company and they've done a lot of good in the world, but they are a big company, and you know, I'm not a big company girl. And uh, if I had gone to Gilead within four months, they would have fired me. Uh because I'm action-oriented, I see it, I do it, I yeah, you know, I want it done. And right, and that's just the way I operate best. Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_02That's that's why we got along, right? We're like, okay, just like okay, what's the right decision? Let's all get in it. Okay, great, let's try it, let's do it, right? And if it doesn't work out, we'll learn from it and we'll try it again.
SPEAKER_01So I did, I did actually um retire from operational roles, but I have actually served at this point on 14 boards. Um wait, say that again, wait, say that again. What's that number? 14 boards. One four. One four. Holy cow. Um, and a lot of them, you know, some of them don't last that long because you transact or you reverse merge or um you get acquired uh outright. So um, but gosh, it's been really fun. I've met people that I would never have come across in my what I would call my normal operational life. Um and yeah, it's it's been great. And it has allowed me as a board member, you know, I I was have been the chairwoman of one board. And um then, of course, I'm on a lot of committees for for various boards, and it has allowed me to stay engaged and still have room in my life for, you know, more time with my family, more time to play Mahjong, more time to play tennis, more time to just walk my dog and not feel rushed about, you know, getting back to whatever I'm supposed to get back to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So tell tell me about your process to evaluate and to decide and how to get on boards. Cause I know a lot of people are thinking about retiring or they have retired and they'd like to get on boards and nobody's calling, and they're like, How do I do it? Like, what's the process? How do I go about being a desirable board member and or getting on a board? Tell us how it worked for you.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So I think there's really an important element of achieving what your goals are, whether it's getting on a board or getting that next role at, you know, let's say I'm a division manager and I want to be a region manager. Well, you have to tell people what you want to do or what your aspirations are and why, right? You and it's it's scary to tell people because there's always the chance that they're gonna a discourage you that you're not qualified or B not really want to engage with you about what you want. Um, but I was pretty bold about telling people, not everybody, but people that I felt like understood my capabilities and qualifications and had the ability to at least make an introduction, right? I would tell them what I wanted to do. And so um, as we were uh closing the deal with uh pharmacyclics and abvi, one of our third-party partners, asked me, Hey, what are you gonna do after this? What do you want to do after this? And I said, I would like to start serving on boards. I think I could add a lot to a board based on my experiences, you know, over the last 30 some years. And that's my goal. And he goes, Oh, well, I know about this company called Oxford Biotherapeutics out of Oxford, England, and they're looking for, you know, blah, blah, blah. So that individual made the connection. But if I hadn't said that's what I want to do, I don't know. It's scary to tell people what you want to be because maybe you're not ever going to get to be that, and maybe they're not interested in helping, but it's really important to tell people what your aspirations are and ask them to help if it makes sense, right? Yeah. If you're sure that you have the capabilities and they may have contacts that you don't have, you have to ask. I am fearless, but I am not reckless.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_0214 times now, I think. Yeah, you've you've done really well. So um tell me about uh your beliefs or your and or your philosophies that you rely on to guide your life choices.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, life choices are about who you surround yourself with, it really is. Um, you know, and it took me a while to um really land on that. And I had I had the guide from a very young age, but I did not embrace it. I don't know how many things your parents told you that you didn't fully embrace. But my dad used to say to me, you know, especially in the teenage and early 20s, he would say, Don't ever forget, he called me Shawnee. He's saying, Shawnee, don't ever forget you are who you hang with, and you can never get around that.
SPEAKER_02Did you have a mentor or friends that helped guide you or talk to you about retirement and and advice for retirement or not retirement?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say no. That's okay. I'm gonna say no. Uh I really didn't. I just assumed that I would figure it out. Okay. Um, and I felt like it was time for me to quote go home.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, that, you know, my family and my husband had been like you couldn't be more supportive. You just couldn't have. And I felt like it was time for me to go home and really embrace and, you know, be present, not all the time, but be more present than I was when I was working full time and commuting back and forth. And you know it. It worked for us. It it won't work for everybody. Right. But it did work for us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Was anything else happening in your family, in your community, or anything, any other factors that contributed to your decision to retire?
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh. Well, I really wanted to spend more time with my husband. It was the the biggest um uh uh driver. And then I retired in 2018. Then I realized my husband was having some uh mild cognitive impairment. I'll tell you one thing I'm really grateful for is never really letting go of um my uh female friendships that I had developed over the years. Even though I was busy, I stayed in touch. I, you know, when I was home, I played tennis, I went to dinner. Um, you know, a lot of times it was with couples, but I I feel like it's really important. Well, I'm sure that when you retire, it is really important to have a community because you're leaving your community. And I do not miss the stress and the actual operational work. Yeah, I do miss the people. Yeah, I do miss the people, and I'm still in touch with quite a few of the folks that I have built companies with.
SPEAKER_02How does your relationships with your co-workers and your friends change in retirement?
SPEAKER_01Oh they've gotten much better, actually. Oh yeah. Um you know, when you're when you're working together every day and you're either colleagues or you know, I have really good friends that actually reported to me and that I reported to. And once we are not in a work relationship, our relationship is much deeper than it was before. Yeah, and I'm really grateful for that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I've experienced that twice in my yeah, two like remarkable ones, right? And you're right, you have to keep the boundary up, they have to keep the boundary up. Um, and being for me, being in HR, it was particularly I bet that really is tough.
SPEAKER_01Well, we can let the guard down.
SPEAKER_02Well, you can't. I mean, we have I always practiced it where we have a higher bar for ourselves because of the work that we do. And we have to go in if we're we have to do an investigation or a lot of the sensitive work that we have to do. People have to trust us, not trust our professional selves, but trust us as a human being. So the decisions and the choices that we make and the behavior that we display at all times that contributes to people's perceptions of whether or not they trust us or not. And so I always had a really high bar, and some people thought that that was a little rough, and maybe it was, but I never had anybody question me or my team when we had to go and do some of those high-stakes um HR people.
SPEAKER_01Part conversations, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So that that was that was um, but anyway, so but once I left, then it would be like, oh, hey, you went have coffee, you went have lunch, and then the friendships took off. So I was I was grateful for that too. And that, you know, being in HR, you know, you don't always get to show yourself, your affinity to people too.
SPEAKER_01You have to be careful of it.
SPEAKER_02I have to be, I have to be very like, yeah, because I remember having an affinity towards you. I remember the first time like you walked in and I went into your office, and you're like, such a straight shooter, but you're like, Lisa, this whole landscape of genetic, it's so different for me. And I was like, okay, so here's okay, here's how you talk to this person, here's what you want to do here, here's what this person, and I wanted to help pave the way for you, right? So I was like giving you kind of the landscape more than I had done with other people, and I just felt so happy, thrilled, excited that we had I had another woman leader, yeah, because I was surrounded by I was surrounded by men, and and I was like, I want we both were back then, this this dynamo wonderful woman that just wants to roll up her sleeves and make make do the right thing and just get rid of all these barriers and all these hurdles and let's just make goodness happen. I wanted to do that, but I could never really tell you how much I admired you. I mean, when I decided to leave, I did. Yeah, that makes me feel great. I appreciate that a lot. But you know, but but just your approach to things and your smile and your sense of humor. But anyway, um, let me let's go back to my questions. Um, what advice do you have for people thinking about or in the midst of creating a satisfying next chapter for themselves?
SPEAKER_01Next chapter in being after work or next chapter some people decide to retire and that's their next chapter.
SPEAKER_02Some people try retirement and then go back. Some people are like, hey, I've been doing X profession, and now I want to do something completely different. I don't wanna I don't want to do X anymore, I want to go zigzag and try something completely different. So letting go or moving on of the life and the career and the knowledge that you've built up to do something completely different. What advice, if any?
SPEAKER_01So, first of all, that is scary no matter who you are. Yes. So, and and it would for me, my advice would be to really know what you love. Like what do you really get excited about doing every day? What makes your heart happy, right? And yes, I love numbers, I like to see achievements, but what made my heart happy was to to invest in somebody else and see them fly, right? And to see them, you know, achieve their potential or their goal or whatever. But yeah, I have to go back to something Myrtle Potter used to say, it would crack me up, but I have actually said it to my kids. But she, you know, when you're thinking about like you're comfortable, I know this business, I know these people, I know how to be successful here, but I feel like I'm ready to go do something else, but I don't know. And and she I heard her tell somebody one time, when you're when you're ripe, you rot, and when you're green, you're growing, so you need to get out of your comfort zone. And and I was like, Oh, she's right, she's right. Yeah, it's it's kind of an interesting analogy, but it is true when you really think about it. But you know, we all have the capacity to to grow and learn, um, really throughout our lives. It's just frightening when you're comfortable in your your profession or your competencies, and to think um that something is going to be challenging and you're not sure if you can meet the challenge, or maybe you make a and here's the other thing so few decisions that we make in life are permanent, so few, thank goodness, right? Right, right, goodness, right. So, and you know, you can pivot and you should be willing to pivot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh so yeah. Have you have you tried anything new? Because I know you've always played tennis and you're doing it. Oh yes, I know I have. Okay, so tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01So um, yeah, so I have a group of women that I spend a lot of time with in the summertime because I go to North Carolina in the summer when it gets really crowded and hot in Florida. Okay, and so I go to the mountains, and one of the ladies was at my house with her husband for dinner recently here in Florida, and she said, Oh, by the way, Terry told me to tell you that you need to learn how to play Mahjong because we're playing all summer long. This was three months ago, not even three months ago, maybe two months ago. And I was like, Mahjong, what in the world is Mahjong? And so, but look, you know, I'm a I'm a social being. I need I need to try when I'm up in North Carolina, and so I started taking Mahjong lessons. There's a uh certified teacher in my neighborhood, and I'm telling you, it is hard and it is complicated, and I am like watching YouTube videos at night and studying, and I'm like, dad gone it, I'm gonna learn this. At first, I was like, oh no, this is above my pay grade, this is not for me.
SPEAKER_02But now you're doing, but now you're doing it, yes. So the boards change every year too. Yeah, they they soon as soon as you learn it, it's like it changes. Yes.
SPEAKER_01I just got the 2026 card in the mail two days ago, and I'm like, I haven't even mastered the 2025 card yet, but I'm really ready just to throw it away because I'm not I'm I have not mastered it, but I have, oh, I have to tell you just a real quick story. So, you know, I'm I'm playing once a week with um four uh three other women, so we play once a week at least, and I was like, I gotta play more than once a week. So I got on social media and I found a club in my neighborhood that's like an open play, right? I'm like open play, I'm not sure what that means. So I asked around a little bit and got got the low down on what it would be like, and on on Thursdays, it's at the library. So I'm like, I'm going, I'm going. And when I tell you that walking into that library, I wanted to throw up. I felt like I was back in junior high school. I hadn't even met anybody yet, but I was so nervous. I was like, back in junior high school, will anybody like me? Will I be able to sit next to anybody? Will anyone ask me to play? Will they will they be nice? Will they be mean? You know, I mean, I'm like, oh my god, I feel like a first day of junior high school going to play Mahjong. And but they were very nice and very gracious and very welcoming. And um, I was so nervous. And we sit down and I get with three other ladies and we introduce ourselves, and I'm like, pay attention, pay attention, pay attention, don't be nervous, just pay attention, just do what you know to do. And I mahjonged.
SPEAKER_02Oh I was like, I can relax now. What's been your process for creating a new routine for yourself? Because you were traveling, you I mean, your life was completely different than it is now. How was that? How was that first couple months or that first I'm not I don't want to put a an a time frame on it? How was the transition and how was how it was settling in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was hard at first because you know it and when when you commute a lot, um, your family just kind of goes on with their own routine, right? They have their routine, and you're really not uh embedded in it. So when you're no longer traveling and you're there with your family all the time, your kids, your husband, you're like, okay, oh, okay, so it's Tuesday. You play golf on Tuesday, see what am I gonna do on Tuesdays? Um, and it took me a while, but I I think when I really got comfortable and felt like I had a rhythm of life outside of meeting to meeting, town to town, um, once I developed a rhythm of of having a pattern during the week, I felt much more settled.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Like, you know, on like tennis on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and then Sunday, or you know, and now Mahjong on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and um you know, I just have regular calendared events to look forward to that I find interesting and engaging, and it feels like I have a flow to life. But that took it took me a while because I really didn't know what I wanted my flow to be.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Yeah, how did you figure that out? And did you try anything and go, uh no, that's not for me, and toss it out and go on to something else?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I tried like some cooking classes and and then um I tried like getting different recipes to to really kind of challenge myself because it's not not a big talent for me. Okay. And after a while, I was like, I don't even like this. Why am I doing this? This is not my deal, you know? Yeah, it's like I'm going back to cooking inmate meals for my family.
SPEAKER_02How is it for your spouse, you and your husband, because you're on the road all the time and now all of a sudden you're home all the time, right? He's used to sleeping by himself, he's used to not having to share the remote control, like he's like doing his own food and dinner, like there's all of this this life that he's lived very, you know, and now all of a sudden you're here all the time. How was that?
SPEAKER_01That was not hard for us at all. Okay, that really was not hard for us at all because you know, all the things that he was always kind of, you know, I I called it division of labor. Yeah, you know, we we raised five kids together, so you have to have division of labor. I think we were both so ready, yeah. Um that it was easy. That part wasn't hard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really wasn't. Okay, good. What uh what three things would you tell your pre-retirement self?
SPEAKER_01Oh pre-retirement self. Uh, I would say retirement is really not cracked up to what people to to how they build the dream of retirement. Okay, say more. It's really not cracked up, like not to what people make it out to be. You know, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, you don't you don't answer to anybody. Um, you know, you don't have to go to meetings all day long. And you know, some of the things that I didn't always love, but um, you know, you can travel the world, and uh it's just really not that simple because as you're retiring, your parents are needing you more, and it's almost like it's set up to like transition from one responsibility uh mode to another responsibility mode, okay, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um how was that how was that transition then from your your career to now transitioning to caring for others?
SPEAKER_01I feel good about it. I really do. I feel good about it. I feel like I really didn't leave any stone unturned in my professional life. And I feel incredibly satisfied and grateful and blessed. And and I had, you know, so much support from my family and my kids and my friends that I'm happy to be giving back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, so it sounds like it sounds like a piece of advice is maybe for some people before you retire. Have you accomplished everything that you want to accomplish before you retire? It's not a bad question, right? Right, but it sounds, but it sounds like you did that though, Sean. So you you climbed the mountains. Yeah, I do too. It sounds like that. I do. What brings you joy and purpose now? Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, joy and purpose. Um, you know, I I love my adult kids, I really enjoy my adult kids, and they were they were uh really great. We have a blended family, and when I met Richard, I thought he was awesome. Um and then I was like, oh, this is this is a really amazing man. And then when I met his three children, and they were, you know, I think 13 to nine or so at that point in time, so like 13 to 9. When I met them, I was like, wow, and he's an amazing parent as well. And I used to tease him and I'd say, Yeah, I really liked you, but your kids sealed the deal. And they they really are. I mean, all five of our adult kids, they're really different, but I I so enjoy them. I enjoy talking to them, I enjoy spending time with them. I'm going next week to Vegas with our oldest daughter, Jennifer, and we're gonna have you know three days together to see shows in Vegas. And yeah, um, I I really love being around my family. I've been able to spend time with my cousin who um is like a sister to me, but we were both raising families and doing jobs, and now we get to love on each other, right? Yeah, uh, yeah. So I really I I really appreciate that a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and the uh the community and the friends. I love my tennis tribe, I'm telling you. It's the it is an amazing group of talented women that are accomplished, each of them in their own right. But we're a tribe, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and it's nice, it's really nice. And you play how often do you play? You said Mondays, Wednesdays.
SPEAKER_01Man, sometimes I play like five times a week. Sometimes, you know, I'll play three times, but a lot of times I'm playing like five times a week.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Are you doing USTA? Are you not doing USTA?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'm doing USTA. Okay, how many how many teams are how many teams are you on? I'm only on one USTA team, so I'm on a league team, a USTA team, and a seniors team.
SPEAKER_02I just joined a 55 and over team. Exactly. Well, because I was playing 18 and up. Yeah. Oh goodness. And then and then my first USTA, it was 18 and up, and I played singles against this 30-year-old, you know, I'm twice her age. And the other team walks up and she's like jogging, like doo doo doo doo doo doo. And I see them and I'm like, please don't have that be the person I'm playing singles against. And she's like, hi, and she's like, Oh, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna get my arse handed to me. I don't know, I don't know how I did it, but I I I won. But I literally, but I was exhausted for like a week after I it took everything out of me because I was like, my first US, I'm like, I am not gonna lose my first one, right? So um, but it's a great sport, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I do love it. I do love it. And you know, they say if you if you if tennis is your sport, that on average you live 10 years longer than those who don't play tennis.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm going for that, right? Me too.
SPEAKER_01I'm going for it too.
SPEAKER_02But okay, so if you get another phone call from somebody that you know and trust, and they say, Sean, we have a role for you. I always would you entertain it?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, I would.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes, I see you have so much energy, you have so much energy, you have the same amount of energy, the same sparkle in your eye, the same like zest for life and action that you had when we first worked together. Like you haven't changed up. No, but it's that I'm I I I you know me. I don't give I give compliments if they're truthful. I'm like, but I still think I still when I see you, I still see some gas in the tank.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Um absolutely when somebody puts an opportunity in front of you. Say yes. Say yes. And find a way to make it work. And if it doesn't work, it's almost assuredly not a permanent decision.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Just say yes. Give it a try. How how do you put aside your fears or imposter syndrome if you feel like you're not ready yet? Yes, I have. I don't, I don't have that. But how did you do that? How did you do that? Especially women, women in leadership roles. We all know there's there's there's more men in leadership roles around the world than there are women. So a lot of times, as women, we're either we're what the only one in the room or one of only a few. And you don't want to let your other the other women down. Have you overcome that?
SPEAKER_01I would say blind determination and and accomplishment after accomplishment after accomplishment, right? I'm like, no, I belong. I'm sorry. I earned it, I belong, and I get along.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because I remember at Genentech feeling that with you and some of the challenging situations that we had that were usually around men that that were at the same or higher level than us, particularly you, you. And I never asked you the question at the time, but how you stayed in the ring and how you kept moving forward when you believed, and I think I believed as well, which is why I worked hard behind the scenes to try to remove boundaries for you and to try to help you succeed. Because there were some people in the beginning that I don't think wanted you to succeed.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, they did not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Because you were you were you were you were too direct, you were like you didn't weren't doing it the way that the company did it, like, but you stayed in the ring. So, what's your advice for women that you know have been doing this for a while and maybe they get into a role before they retire or the next chapter where it's the furthest, it's the biggest job they've ever had, and they're maybe in in an ecosystem or an environment that not everybody's written for them and they have imposter syndrome.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it's really important, whatever role you're in, to be honest with yourself and and with your team about what you're good at and what you're not good at. Quickly ascertain who the subject matter experts are in something that you're not and ask them to teach you. Ask them to help you. You know, I do think that that you need to find out who the informal leaders are and and give them the respect that they deserve and have earned and learn from them, and who are the subject matter experts? Give them the respect that they deserve and learn from them, yeah, and put them in positions where they can help the entire team, including you as the leader.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. Well, thank you. You've had such an amazing career. I had so much fun. It was so good to see you. I hope you had fun.
SPEAKER_01It was a great surprise to hear from you. So yeah, let me know how you're coming on your tennis up.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, yes. Hi, listeners. We're adding variety to our podcast. Thanks to your feedback, we're expanding to include multi-generational perspectives. You were introduced to my son Ricky in our first About Us episode. He produces the show. One of the strongest themes in Sean's career was her story about knowing herself, especially when she said, I knew I wasn't a big company gal. Sean didn't make it a weakness, she made it a strength. It reminds me of a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. To be yourself in a world that tries to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. Ricky, what did you think of the episode in the interview with Sean?
SPEAKER_00I like what she said about how to build a lasting reputation. I was impressed to hear about how she led teams and gave subject matter experts the respect they deserved. After hearing the advice she got from her dad about surrounding yourself with the right people, it gave me something to think about for myself. Share this episode with someone you know that needs a reminder and encouragement to keep being themselves. Let us know if it was helpful. You can email us at Lisa at next chapter conversations.com. Or you can drop a comment on one of our Spotify or Apple Podcast episodes. Thanks for listening.
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