The Realities of Running an E‑Commerce Homewares Brand With Deborah Mott (Radio Version) (Interview) (Eps8)

In this episode of Small Business Sorted, Kay and Crystal interview entrepreneur Deborah Mott, former owner of the e‑commerce and wholesale homewares brand Zakkia. Deborah shares the full story behind buying an existing business, scaling an online store, managing international manufacturing, and growing a product‑based brand across Australia and New Zealand.

We dive deep into the realities of running an e‑commerce business, including sourcing from artisans in India and Vietnam, managing US‑dollar purchasing, dealing with freight forwarders, navigating wholesale vs online sales, and protecting your brand from copycat competitors. Deborah also breaks down the systems she relied on, the staffing challenges that come with small business, and how she balanced design, manufacturing, logistics, and marketing.

Deborah opens up about the impact of COVID on e‑commerce, the spike in online sales, the explosion in shipping costs, and the moment she realised the business model was no longer sustainable. With insights on Instagram growth, product pricing, margins, and the hidden costs most new e‑commerce owners overlook, this episode is packed with practical lessons for anyone running — or thinking about starting an online store or retail brand.

If you’re building an e‑commerce business, importing products, selling wholesale, or trying to scale a creative brand, this conversation is a must‑listen.

shows at the beginning of each episode for 15 seconds

Connect with us:
Crystal Petzer - https://businessgrowthcoach.com.au/
Kay Godfrey - https://upupandaway.net.au/

Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 or 90.3 FM - https://www.rnb.org.au/
Email us - radio@businessgrowthcoach.com.au

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61590811295505
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/small_business_sorted/

If this episode hits home, share it with a business owner who needs to hear it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Well, good afternoon, everybody. And we've got a wonderful surprise for everybody today. We actually have a guest in the room, and who do we have, Kay?

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Well, today we're joined by Deborah Mott, who, among other things, ran the successful e-commerce store Zakia. She's here to share her experience of running an online retail business. Deborah, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, welcome. Thanks, Crystal and Kay, for having me. Thank you.

unknown 0:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

So welcome Deb. Lovely to have you in the uh studio, and this is our first interview. So enjoy the ride. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:55

Thanks so much. So, Deb, tell us a story of how you got started.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

So, yeah, as I said, it's my name's Deborah Mott, and I'm an entrepreneur, and I've spent much of my career building and growing businesses. One of those businesses was Zakia Homewares. It's a design, it was it's a design-led homewares brand. We supplied retailers across retailers across Australia and New Zealand, and we were online, of course, as well. We specialized in a unique handicraft product sourced from artisans and manufacturers around the world, mainly India and Vietnam. And we we focused on the quality and the craftsmanship and the timeless design. Oh wow. So how did you get into that, Deb? I actually bought the business. I didn't start it. I bought the business from a lady who started the business. The the main reason that she started it was to actually she she actually, you know, realized that there was a gap in the market for handmade products. There was a lot of products on the shelves that were mass produced. And anyway, she she only had the business for two years, and it needed to to really be looked at not from the handicraft side, it needed to be look looked at more from the business perspective, and that's when I stepped into it.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah. And how how did you find wanting to buy? How did you even think about buying this business? What how did how did you get in that?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I was I was actively looking for something to do. I'd actually retired. I'd had a business before that. My previous business was Resleep, and I uh I successfully sold that business, and I was actually retired, but there you know, I was too young to retire and too too entrepreneurial to actually sit and do to do the retirement thing, and that's when I started to actively look for a business, and this particular opportunity popped up amongst others, but this one inspired me because I do have a creative flair, so it was it, you know, it was something as well that that inspired me to to you know continue with the business and to look at it and to to see what could be done with it.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah. And why do you think she wanted to get out? Why was Sakya on the market?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I think she'd taken it to a level that she was capable of taking it to. And it was, you know, it w it was one of those things that it needed to have a lot of a lot more systems in place. All uh but in saying that it had been very well prepared. So, you know, a lot of a lot of the preparation of the business, the processes and procedures, we continued on. But it just needed to go, it it needed to be taken to another level.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah. So, like you saw that an opportunity and then you got into it.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, I saw that opportunity and and as well, uh like I said, it actually sparked my interest because of the interest in the creative side of it. It was it was very, very like fulfilling having a business with you know, sourcing products from artisans around the world. It it's very, very rewarding.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

They were beautiful products too. Oh I've got some myself. Yeah. I think all our kittens have a little bit of them in. Yes, yes. Deb, looking back, what was the hardest part of the journey that people didn't see?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

The probably the biggest challenges was competing against cheap imports and copycat products, and it it is an area really it that you know, there's a lot of homewares out there, and there's a lot of there's a lot of competition, and you know, we we would spend months developing and designing and then see similar products just appear in in you know retail stores that you know they they literally had taken our products. We were we we're a leader in the game as well, so a lot of people looked at Zakia products and wanted to replicate those designs, and it was genuinely, you know, copy cut of Zakia products that were were out there.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, and just can you just describe what your favorite product was that you had? Because I know you designed them as well, didn't you? So what was your favorite product?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah, I think at the towards the you know, sort of the the latter part of the business, it was the the products that I actually designed myself that I got a lot more. The Isbar range, which was plates that was it was actually based on the name. I I liked actually choosing the names as well for the products. And Isbar, because of the Swedish heritage, the actual Isbar came from the Isbar chicken, which is a s believe it or not, this is a a true story. It's the Isbar chicken and it actually lays a blue coloured egg, and it's the only chicken that actually lays that particular colour blue. Yeah, right. And so then I thought, oh well, the Isbar, you know, I wanted three colours, so I used the the actual egg. So we had the yolk of the egg, which was a a beautiful, you know, deep orangey colour, and then the the outside shell, and then the white was, you know, sort of the an off-white colour of the yeah, and I I kept that very simple as well, just doing it was actually, and we advertised it as well as a plate, a bowl, and a and a like the a small plate, a din a dinner plate, a side plate, and a bowl, and that was it. That was the and oh sorry, no, sorry, there was a mug as well involved in it. So there was a mug, a side plate, a dinner plate, and a bowl.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Oh, I remember those, and I used to love seeing the uh colours of that. What I know e-commerce, right, is a is a big thing. A lot of people have e-commerce sites and and so how did you find that going from your Red Sleep, which was obviously a a retail store sort of environment where people came to you, versus a online platform. So what what uh what platform did you use?

SPEAKER_04 6:42

Um I can't remember what it was called either, because I Shopify I used to call it.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

No, we didn't, it wasn't Shopify. We I can't remember either. It'll come to us. It'll come to us later. All of a sudden bang will be.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah, so but how did you find that sort of going from a brick and mortar sort of place to an online sort of environment?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, so uh the challenge with Zakia was that it wasn't just purely online for a pr for a business the style of Zakia, it needed to be. We needed to sell business to business as well. So the challenge was to actually be online but not be competing with your bricks and mortar, and that was the biggest challenge. I didn't realise that that was going to be as big a challenge because you were limited as to what you could actually do online because you know, if you moved the wrong direction, you upset your whole network. And we had a massive network, we had the network that was around Australia and New Zealand, so and some overseas as well. Like we had a couple of overseas suppliers, we had one in Singapore and one uh even about the stuff. Yeah, we had yeah, we had some in that we had, yeah, we had a uh distributor over there in the US as well. So it was, you know, that was the challenge as well was you know, not so much the online the online side of it was relatively easy. If it had been an online store predominantly, it probably would have changed things a little bit. But we did the design, the manufacture, and sold business to business and had the online presence. And we needed to have the online presence to do the marketing. So it, you know, that marketing was and trying to actually balance that and get our uh retail stores to actually understand that we needed to do the advertising for their for you know for their benefit as well. So but they were also, you know, as soon as everything changed and everybody was online, they were creating online stores as well. So it was, you know, that would that would that's the the the challenging side.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

And what mistake taught you the most about the business?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Probably, yeah, probably trying to do, you know, like probably trying to do a lot myself, that was that was difficult because it was small business, very small to start with, and trying to actually find trying to actually, you know, trust the right people to do the right thing. And that that's what I learned a lot, like the which I think in every small business, the staff is, you know, sad to say, staff is, you know, one of the one of the problems that needs to, you know, you need to actually be really careful as to who you employ and what their expectations are because their expectations track change dramatically it very quickly as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

And what was what was so difficult about it, Deb, running a whole small business?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

I think it was you know, you're you're definitely on 24-7, and it's not only not only the business itself, it's you know, thinking about the design, the manufacturing. And you know, there was a part of me that I was doing, you know, I was doing the design and and and trying to actually qu coordinate the manufacturing as well. So it's you know, that it it's the same as you know, I don't think there's any business that doesn't come with, you know, a lot of work, especially, you know, when you're starting out work and a bit of pressure.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And how did you manage that that pressure, as you were saying, with your day-to-day stuff out of that, or how did you manage that?

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, I think I think I handled it well. It was, you know, I think the business itself was rewarding enough to be able to, you know, handle what needed. And you know, it wasn't it it wasn't all doom and gloom. It was, you know, there was there was, you know, beautiful trips over to Vietnam and to India and things like that. So, you know, but you also had the you know, the the manufacturers that you were actually, you know, dealing with, they had families to feed. They were only small business as well. So, you know, they were they needed their orders.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

Where did you where did you distribute the goods from?

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I think you had at one point warehouses in the Yeah, no, we did we had a main warehouse in Sydney, so everything got distributed from Sydney.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, so other than you know, where if even if we did anything overseas, we shipped it, we shipped the product overseas. So, you know, there was a the that was the the big thing with Zakia is that it was it was a corporation, you know, every department that you can think of that's in any corporate business, there was that department in in Zakia as well. So, you know, it was it it it was a big operation. It was a big operation.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

And and was there a moment that changed everything for you or your business?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

I think real uh COVID, COVID was the the the big change for Zakia. I can remember that. Yeah, that was the real big change for Zakia. That's when that's when we, you know, that the business wasn't sustainable after that, and I could I probably it's probably a lot of people that hang on and don't realize when they I mean I probably could have kept on building that business in when I say building it, COVID did, you know, d destroy it dramatically. But I may have been able to, you know, sort of hang on and keep going, but I I think I realized that it was something that wasn't sustainable long term. And now looking back, I don't regret that because COVID probably was the indicator. We did extremely well during COVID as an online business because that that was you know the instigator of it. We couldn't we couldn't actually sell to to retail stores, so our sales on the internet went over, you know, completely through the roof. But the problem that happened was that all the shipping and everything was then very expensive, and that's the that's what we couldn't have to do.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Everybody was sitting at home, remember, and doing online shopping and then looking in their cupboards and going, we need to renovate this, we need to change this, I need some new plates, I need some new this.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, well I think we had some of our record sales during, you know, but that wasn't the that you know, that wasn't the whole aim of the business because to do that we would have had to have gone, you know, to to suppliers that just weren't gonna be it wasn't the same as an artisan artisan supply business. We we could have done that, but that wasn't, you know, that wasn't the business model at all. The business model was to to to use artisans to actually produce handmade products properly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

So what what is something that you believed 10 years ago that you no longer believe today?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Well, ten years ago. Ten years ago, what did I believe?

SPEAKER_04 13:41

When did you actually when did you start Zakia?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, what what year was that? 2009. Okay. So yeah, that was that it was a oh no, sorry, sorry, that was Reslick 2009, 2014, I think um Zakia was. So yeah, I I mean I I probably I I probably always thought it, but the the main I think staff, like I I don't like to talk of people, you know, but I think what I've learnt a lot along the way is that I always used to say to people, nothing has changed, the business hasn't changed, you've changed. And I think that's one of the big things that I've learned that people do come into a business, they they take the job and they take on the the role, but then they change, and the business is still going on exactly the same. And if you could rewind an interview, you know, with somebody and you know, ask you say to them, This is what you actually said that you were going, you know, wanted or whatever, nothing has changed, but you've changed your attitude towards the business has changed, the you know, the hurdles that somebody has to go over, and especially with small business, small business is difficult because you need to employ people that you know can pivot. Like they they they can't just have one role. It's it's impossible to, you know, and that's that's hard on on people as well because we're trained to do specific roles, and you know, how many times have I heard, you know, that's you know, not you know, my pay level or that's not whatever, but I I personally have never been like that. I I started my career from the bottom, like from you know, I don't have a degree, I don't have I've got a good education, but I don't have a degree, and there's nothing that I've asked anybody to do ever that I haven't actually done myself in in either in in corporate or in small business. I, you know, and that that's you know a mentality that you can't force that mentality on people.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Do you find that as a small business owner you kind of hope or expect the staff to think the same as you do? And they actually don't because they don't own the business. So expectations may be high.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yeah, I don't I'm not sure that I expect them to to think the same as me, but I kind of expect them to maybe adapt the same. And that's you know where the resistance is the for them to adapt is sometimes not possible. So and that that's why they're not entrepreneurial, and you know, balancing balancing that is um a massive task. It's a massive task, and it's a draining task as well. So it it drains you. I've got a question. You talked about pivoting.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

How did you pivot during that time?

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Oh, I had to pivot, like I was pivoting like no tomorrow. Like, I mean, I'd I'd come off a business that that we'd grown. I had a a great business partner in Resleep, and we'd grown a massively successful business. What was Resleep, by the way? Resleep was we'd we had a network of clinics around Australia testing and treating for sleep apnea. Yeah, right. So we, you know, that was we'd got that you we'd really that business was very, very well sorted. We'd gone from five clinics to 17 clinics in five years. So the comparison of what I went went to with with um Zakia was you know, it was completely different. It was really stuff, and I I started with staff that were, they weren't happy with the previous owner, and you know that that that was disgruntled as well. And and when I say not happy, I think they were happy when they were working with her, but they weren't happy that they weren't involved in the fact that she was selling the business. So we had unhappy people straight away, and that was very difficult to deal with when it's a small business, very, very difficult. And many people had probably been. How did you handle that? It was difficult. One of them left straight away, and the the other one stayed for a little bit. There was there were two predominant girls that were there, and one of them stayed for a little bit, and then when we decided that we'd move the business to the northern beaches, that's when she, you know, sort of kicked up and said, No, I'm not, I'm not doing that either. So, how was that for you then losing two key people? It was terri it was bad. It was it that that was that wasn't a good and especially the industry, you know, we weren't familiar with the industry yet as well, so it was hard, but we did get a lot of support from the previous owner. Yeah. She did help us if if need be, like we we did. But that was, you know, help from afar. It wasn't it wasn't like having somebody in the business. So it was it was a difficult time. Like I I I honestly can tell you that the the actual you know sort of flow of Zakia was if anybody could have gone through, you know, a small business that, you know, just just through a lot of hits and uh just just things that happened, it it was, it was, it was very notable as to, you know, the distraction. Then we, you know, we had people join the business that weren't really that familiar with the industry. And it's a very, very niche industry. The homewares industry is, you know, that like it's you know, it's it's very niche and it's very creative, and it's a different mindset of people as well. Creatives are a completely different mindset, so that's you know, dealing with that as well. The personality types is beautiful, beautiful people, but you know, it's it's not the same as dealing with, say, people in the medical industry. It's just it's quite a change, isn't it? On the two different completely different, completely different.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Yeah, so you would have enjoyed the change. Was that was that something that attracted you to buying this psychia?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah, I I like the change. Like I I actually embraced it. I got on well with a lot of people through the industry, and it was more of getting to know them and getting to, you know, sort of work the way that they worked. And I've, you know, made a lot of friends in the industry. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Tell me just a quick question about your background. Were were your family entrepreneurial?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

No, not no, not at all. No. I wonder where you got that gene from, huh? I don't know. Like I think my my like my dad was well, my mum and my dad were both very hardworking, you know, individuals. So it was And you had a really interesting childhood too, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, yeah, very much so. Do you want to share a little bit of that?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Oh, I j I lived all over the world. Although you can speak Spanish, right? Yeah, yeah. See? Well. Yeah, I've lived all over the world. Like I I I lived in South Africa, then I lived in South America. And I went to school, like I didn't, you know, I literally went to school in those countries as well. So I had a good exposure. Then I lived in the Middle East as well, in Jordan. And was there uh South America? South America, yeah. I lived in South America, in Peru. Yeah, in Lima. So Peru. No, in Arequipa. Arequipa.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

So how did you end up in Australia?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

That was that was my first relationship. Yeah, it was, it was. It was a man.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Okay, back to business ladies. Yes. What's one thing that most people in your industry get wrong? Oh do you think?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Do you think one thing I I don't think there's one thing that people get wrong. I think there's multiple things that we get wrong. I don't I think, you know, sort of maybe, you know, like it it it it is hard to, you know, balance the books. That's the that's the main thing, looking at the costs. Like it's it it's all right having, you know, these great sales and and designing things and having a warehouse full of product, but yeah, it's the cost side of it. And I think a lot of people underestimate where their costs are coming from.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Yeah, that's such a tricky one, isn't it? And swapping industries as well to you know knowing the medical industry and then going into a homewares e-commerce sort of environment would have been quite different.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Oh, for sure. And also we had to, you know, we bought product in US dollars, and you know, that's not the same as, you know, when we had our product that we bought in for you know, that that made a big difference as well, that you're watching that dollar fluctuate all the time, and that has an impact, like it has a massive impact on on business. Massive.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

So when you bought product from China in, or or not China. Sorry, India and uh Vietnam. Do what sort of currency were you purchasing your product? US everything was in your product. Everything was in your stock.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, so you'd have to watch that currency all the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

All the time, yeah. It was and you know, we didn't have the finesse of buying US dollars up front and things like that, like which we probably should have done. Like there's you know, there's lessons to be learnt with that and and a good understanding, you know, that's the that's the good thing. You need a a good a good accountant, good bookkeeper in business.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

So what product did you use to manage all that money sort of stuff? How did that how did you when you were purchasing, did you just did you go through like a forward freighter person or how did you manage that?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, we did, we had a freight forwarder that we had, you know, good relationships with and a good account. We were a good account for them. You know, it it and you build those, you know, we we would get if we could work that properly and we had the need for container loads rather than you know park containers, then that would work. Our big problem as well was New Zealand, like New Zealand. You can't just ship into New Zealand from you know, it had to come to Sydney first of all, and then we'd ship over to to New Zealand. And that's and it you know, shipping by seafreight to New Zealand is practically impossible. So why is that? It's it would there just isn't there just isn't the need for it. There isn't the quality of the thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So there isn't that so there's not much.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

No, so most things would go would go over by air freight. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. And in New Zealand as well, with there being the North and the South Island, we had customers in both. Oh gosh. And they used to, you know, try and consolidate sometimes to be able to get a shipment over there because they weren't buying in, you know, massive amount of product. It was yeah, so it's it's difficult to balance that side of it as well. How did you get into New Zealand, by the way? It w I look the the social media, the the actual Instagram page for Zakia was massive, like it was a it was a boomer. So it was it was definitely done very well, like the the actual extra.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

And is that where most of your business came from through through Instagram?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Any of the homeware style businesses, Instagram is and and you know, there's there's Pinterest and things like that, but Instagram was the main, the main social media.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Did you have someone to manage all your social media?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, well, we did. That was up and down as well because they come and go, and it's very it's expensive as well for having some external person to manage your socials, that's another big cost. And you know, you've got to look at your return on investment sometimes, and it's sometimes you you can't see that return, but it's you know that that's another thing of taking into consideration when you're starting a small business is how are you going to manage that? And it it manage the cost of it, not not just manage the social media, it's managing the cost of that social media person. And you you know, you you'll hit some good people that will be internal, do it, they'll do it for you internally, but you know, then they leave and it leaves a gap. So how did you manage that? I had I I did all sorts of things actually. I had uh a couple of people internally, and then I also used a couple of uh I outsourced it as well to to consultants outside of the business, which was good, but you know, it takes a long time for them to learn your business as well, so you can't just let them go. You've got to actually hand hold for for quite some time. How many followers did you end up having on uh your Instagram account? Can you remember? I think it was like 58,000 or something. It was it was massive. It was m uh for its time it was really big. Yeah, yeah. It was big.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Really interesting stories and love, love what you're doing. It's it sounds like a lot of fun and a lot of hard work, doesn't it, at the same time. Oh, and also we've just worked out what your previous uh e-commerce store was NETO.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

NETO, NETO, that's it. Yeah, boom.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

I remember that. Yeah, we all had a bit of Alzheimer's or whatever, whatever you have there. Yeah, we did, didn't we? Old people syndrome, maybe. Old people's syndrome. Yeah, so Deb, what systems, habits, or routines have had the biggest impact on your success, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Good question.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

Yeah, it is a good question.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Look, I I thrive on systems, so I I've got this ability that I can walk into any business and I can sort of work out what needs to be done. I don't go changing it, you know, straight away, but I can work out what needs to be done. But it's not just within the business, it's probably, you know, sort of a lot to do with what you do outside of the business when you've got a small business to to keep your head straight as well. And I I did a lot of running when I had Zakia, and that really helped. And I always used to say that you know, I'd save things during the day and I'd put it into my running filing cabinet, and then when I was you used to run, just sorry to interrupt, you used to run from Bilgola to Worrywood.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Did I remember that wrong?

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I ran, I yeah, I did a couple of half marathons. I did yeah, I did a lot. Like I used to- Yeah, it was yeah, I did I did a lot of running. Like it was a lot of run. I was very, very fit. Like when I look back at photos, I was very fit, which I hope I can get to again.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

You have to be fit living in b uh Bulgola plateau at the top of the hill, because when you go anywhere, you have to come back and up the hill. Or ride up the hill. I actually used to still do past her. Yeah, she's coming up, I'm going down, or the other way around. That's anyway.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

But yeah, I've I've taken to my little bike riding now, so it's easier to get up the hill on an e-bike than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah, amazing. So, what other systems did you use then that you said you were a real systemized person? What other systems were you using in the business that really helped you?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Oh, I just I mean, like mainly any any any type of system. I mean, we had zero for our financials and we had NITO, which worked well together because NITO did a lot for the e-commerce store. And but just anything, anything that, you know, if you can be systematic about it, and that's what I think a lot of small businesses think that they don't have to put in a system because they're too small. And that really annoys me because it you have to like regardless of how small you are, you need to get those systems sorted, and it's much quicker and easier if you get them sorted when you're small than when you have to go and backtrack. And yeah, that's what I've always done in any business that I've been in and any any corporate that I've worked in as well, is that I've put systems in place. I I I have an awful mem memory, like a really bad memory, and I think that that is probably why I do it, so that I can actually just, you know, it it compensates for my memory as well. That if I've but just things have to flow as well, and and also, you know, that there's a lot of people, so many people that never question why they're doing something.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

And that, you know, I always question every time I've started a job from when I was very young, I I would always, you know, sort of take note of what people were actually asking me to do, and I'd do it in that way, but I would always then ask as well, you know, sort of why I'm in my own head, I'd be asking, why am I doing that? There must be a better way of doing it. And I've al that's what I would always go. And I that's what I challenge everybody is, and any team that I've led, any any staff that have worked for me, they'll know that I will say to them, if you can think of a better way of doing this, don't worry, we've got in place what is actually already working. Let's run with what you think is going to be better, and if we have to fall back, we can. And I think, but I think a lot of people are scared of actually introducing something new, and they just sit there and do, you know, I I'd I I'd ask people, what why do you do it that way? And they'd go, Oh, because Jan, the lady before, told me that that's how I have to do it. And they'd never think of, you know, sort of, oh, I could actually change that and I could do it a lot more efficiently. And I think when you're in business, that's so important. So it it's probably the number one thing is to cut out anything that takes you longer than you need to take to do something. And you know, that's that's a cost saving because your time is, you know, money.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

I'd say that's a great piece of advice to any new business owner. Yeah. Don't just do things the way they've already.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Or existing business owners. Yes. Not just new ourselves. Yes, yes. But also get your systems in place. Like systems, I just want to define that a bit deeper. Yeah. So I know everybody uses the word systems, but so you're using Xero, you're using Nito for your products and for your sales. What other systems were there in place? Did you have like an operations manual? Did everybody have a set set of tasks they did every day? How how does that how did that look?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah, Zakia had a a complete manual for everything. There we use Google Docs. No, no, no. What's the what's the web-based thing that you put all your documents in? Google, Google. No, no, not Google anymore, the older one. Dropbox. Yes, sorry, see how bad my memory is.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Ah yes, I remember Dropbox. That's my Dropbox got mixed up with your Dropbox. And I couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

But but everything was contained in Dropbox for the whole operation of I learnt a lot because what Res Sleep taught me was that Resleep was actually a franchise business, so we were a franchise oars. So that was imperative that we had all our systems in place. I did my franchise like certificate, so the qualification for franchising. And that was that's you know, probably even more critical there that you actually from opening the door. So when people talk about systems, it's not it's not just you know a computer system, it's everything to do with the business, everything, so that if you're not there as an owner, you can actually operate your business. Like if you've be even from the the simplest thing of opening the front door, if somebody has to get there and open the front door and you're the only person that knows how to open the front door, then you're never open the front door. You're buggered. The front door doesn't open. So, you know, that's that's one of the things that you've got to, and that's what I talk about systems. It's not just and that's a solution for it being quicker as well. Other than, you know, if you couldn't didn't open the front door, you'd have to phone somebody, you'd have to do it's, you know, an hour's work before you open the front door. So all of those things, I don't think people should categorize systems as being, oh, you've got to have a computer system. It doesn't matter if it's the best, you know, paper-driven system. That as long as there's a system there that actually works and that you've got a system in place that if you're not there, you can somebody can pick it up and and and and read it and understand it.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

What was your favorite saying again, washing the window, sweeping the floor?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Oh, yeah, yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that? Yeah, I can talk about that forever. No, that's uh that that was one of the things, you know, when you had staff, especially in small business and you have staff that, you know, they want to be creative, bless them, and they want to do things, but you know that, you know, like it's like the the tap stripping, they want to go and turn off the tap, but you know that tap's dripping and you're gonna get to it and you're gonna fix it, but you actually want them to be doing something else, not fixing the tap. And I used to say, you know, there they are washing the windows when you want the floor cleaned. We know the windows are dirty, we know the windows are dirty, we can't see through them, but at the moment the floor is the important thing and we've got to concentrate on it. I like that. You know, and they there would be, they'd be off, no, no, no, but I need to clean the window. No, but uh we've the floor, the floor, back to the floor, please, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Yeah, so like if you put that in real business, though, like phony clients. Can you just phone the clients and know that she wants to go do the uh Instagram or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, no, the clients have to be called, you know, that's like ten customers today, not not the windows, forget, don't stop looking at the windows, like they're not gonna be clean. But it's it and I think that's you know, that's that's nat that's human nature to actually distract from so and and I can honestly tell you, being in a creative business, it is even worse. You can imagine all these beautiful colours cleaning. Oh, that you can imagine all these beautiful colours and pots and everything, and they all want to be crowded around, giving you ideas of but those customers need calling. You d we we'll talk about the colour of the pots later, but the customers need to be called. So it's you know, that's challenging. That's ch and you can't, you know, you you you want the input from people as well. So it's it's it's a balancing act, and it's a very difficult balancing act.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

So Debbie, if you lost everything and had to start again tomorrow, what would you do first? So if you had to start again tomorrow, what would you do first?

SPEAKER_01 35:08

What in i are you like in a business?

SPEAKER_04 35:11

Yeah, in a business, business sense.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Or would you would you start again? I d you know, look, I th there's always a part of me that is interested in any business that starts. I think, you know, the enthusiasm has to be there, and I think that's what we lack probably as we get older and and you know, closer to retirement we're thinking about other things. But I don't I I don't know that I would do anything dramatically different, probably with with Zakia. You know, I loved that business. I loved it, I loved the the concept of it, I loved the everything about it. It just wasn't a sustainable business at the time. It may, you know, to tell you that the the business is still there, and maybe one day it'll pop back up back up again. You know, the business isn't gone. I still have a really good relationship with all of the suppliers, all of the suppliers. So I could, you know, at the drop of a hat I could actually bring the business back to life. If I did do it again to answer your question, sorry about that, if I, you know, now thinking about it, I probably would just keep it to being an online business, but that's easier said than done. You mean to like B2C type of thing, business to customers? Yeah, just uh purely online, like purely to have it online to, you know, the the the the pr the issue there is the exposure of the product. You've got to expose the product somehow. And if you're purely online, I you know, it might be one little retail shop. That again is another issue because you're a one little retail shop in one, you know, suburb that you want to expand bigger than that. So it's you know, it's a it's a it's a big balancing act. And you know, now you've got you know places like Kmart that have just opened a massive what's it called? Kind of K-Home. K-home, yeah. Yeah, so that's going to be a massive, you know, competition for a lot of people that are in, you know, the the very curated area of the case.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

And they pick all the popular designs down there and then bring in their own designs around that.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Well, they have you know the ability to mass produce them in in China, wherever it is that they're mass producing. But, you know, that wasn't that wasn't, like I said before, that wasn't the business plan for Zakya. Zakia was artisan, handmade, and that's what we wanted it to be, and to support, to support, you know, I used to get a kick out of, you know, when when we went to trade fairs, there there'd be mugs, which was the speckle collection, which was a beautiful, beautiful collection, that you'd actually see the imprint of one of the makers' hands on the actual mug where they'd done the w where they'd actually done the the gloss part of it. And that that was special, like that was special, that was unique, you know. You that that was a very unique thing about the product. So each one was an individual, its own little entity.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah, I remember that. And I remember your those big goblet glasses as well.

SPEAKER_04 38:06

They were like all a lot of them were all imperfect, but I love that about them as well. So I've got some of the speckled, I've got a speckled plate. Oh yeah, the I've got a speckled little jar as well with a little top that I put my jewellery in.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

And people don't appreciate what goes into that, particularly the speckle range that was there. That's reactive glaze, and you can lose an entire kiln just from one piece being in the wrong spot, and that it you know, it's a very, very special way of actually producing product, and it's not appreciated. So the price then comes into it because you know, to produce one of those plates, people are like, Oh my god, I'm not but that is a special plate to eat off. Like that's you know, or the mug is a very, very special mug, but it's you know, it's it's whether you know your audience is appreciating that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Something that's going through my mind, and it might be the wrong thing. I'm thinking of the Amazons of the world. A lot of people sell their products through Amazon. I don't know what you think about. We Zach sold through Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

All right, it it it well, Amazon didn't they had to actually retract because yeah, they had a very, very weird system that they actually it wasn't so much we didn't sell it, there's there's a couple of ways of selling through Amazon, and Amazon actually invited us to stock the product within Amazon. Okay. But what happened was that when they their stocks went when this the stock was actually low, they would then place another order. I remember now. Yeah, and it it was really like but then they, you know, sort of over ordered and then they'd be sending back the product, but then they'd order it again because they were out of stock. So I actually brought that to their attention that it was um we ended up pulling out, we pulled out from them because they weren't doing a great job, but it it wasn't the right platform as well for the product that we had. They thought it was, and it wasn't, so it was yeah, we had mutual.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

So how did you so you brought the product into Australia and then obviously you didn't have it at home in the garage?

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Oh no, no, yeah. We had a th we had a a 3PL over at Chester Hill and they they did a fabulous job. They were, yeah, a fabulous job. So but it was still, you know, we had to monitor. Yeah, they picked and packed, and but you know, everything had to be barcoded. So, you know, that was another element. It wasn't just small business like that for us to actually sell B2B, every product had to be barcoded as well. So, you know, that it was a massive, that was a massive operation. Just even even though it was a third party that we were distributing from, we had to monitor the stock, do stock takes, do everything, you know, that you know.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

How did you manage your pricing of your goods? So you manufacture, you then have online, and then you've got your three PL plus delivery and all that. How did you work out your pricing?

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Well, you have to like when you you know, that's the that's the problem that some people have is that if you've got to actually set your retail price, because if you don't have a retail price set high enough, then you can't sell wholesale. So your wholesale and the majority of your product is actually wholesale. So you've got to have enough sustainability in the business to be able to like sell your product. So your retail price is you know relatively high if you're going to do, and that's you know, that's why I said before, probably, you know, if you were if you were literally going just business to customer, like an online short store, then it would be easier. But you've got to take into account when you're starting off small, that if you do that, you've got to have enough margin to be able to give somebody else a cut if you want to go and you sell in a retail store. Yeah. So that's the tricky part, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 42:00

You can set your retail price too low. Oh, way too low. And then, or you could set your buy price too low, and then if you go sell to like a bigger entity there where they have their different fees and cuts and everything, and then you can find that your margins are way too small.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Well, you can some people can never do it because they've set their retail, you know, their their prices are just there's nothing in it. Instead of setting your cost price higher, you're setting your retail price higher. You have to set your retail price higher, and then that's sometimes sometimes that retail price is out of people's reach. But you've you've got to, you know, if you want to sell online as well, you've got to have a retail price.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah. And then how did you manage, like obviously, for certain customers, you'd offer discounts as well. How did you manage that?

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Oh, it look, we didn't discount that you know, that's what we tried not to do. When you're doing sales online, you've got to offer, you know, a discount. So that's but you know, really discounting was, you know, what we do if we were if we were online selling at a discount, then we'd discount to our wholesale as well, so they'd be able to buy cheaper, so they could actually sell it cheaper as well. Because if not, you know, because it was a small, you know, niche product, people would go, well, I'll just go onto the Zakya website and buy it. Yeah. So instead of going to the shop where so we had to make sure that they could afford to actually put it at the same price. You know, when we went on sale online, we had to make sure that they could go on sale. And that would that was cra it's it's it's hard to balance it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

And that what was that Friday, the the November sales? What was that called again? The November. Ah, the Black Friday. Yeah, Black Friday.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Oh, that's well, that's global. So Yeah, you did really well in those ones. Yeah, but it was also, you know, it it was it was good, but you know, your margin shrink, you know, dramatically during those times. So you've got to sell a bit of volume.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

What's your advice to the listeners? And just Deb, if you could just give advice for people who do have the online stores around that pricing, what what what would be your your words around that?

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Oh, they've just they've just got to make sure that they set their retail pricing, like their retail pricing, or they have to think about whether it's worth the product. Like to start with, they've got to have a look at it and go, boy, we're going to have to sell this for X amount of dollars retail so that we've got enough room to be able to sell to wholesale as well. So it's that's the balancing thing, is when you're in both areas, which a lot of homewares businesses are, they need to be in both areas. They've got to be selling business to business. And it's uh it's a catch-22 as well, because they've got to be doing that to get exposure for the for the product. So they want it in as many retail outlets as they can to have exposure, but then they've also got to have their own like website to support marketing and and sales products like that as well. So it's it's a balancing act, and I'd I'd you know the advice is that retail price has to be, you know, and then you've got to test the market. Would somebody pay $100 for one plate? That you know, that's the question, and how many are you going to sell? We only did small batch manufacturing, so you know, it wasn't, and that's where the difference is. If you're doing mass production, well, you know, or you can buy in mass for, you know, your your your cost comes down, you know, when you buy more. For us, it didn't really be because there were small artisans that we were dealing with, they weren't really interested in in us talking to them about mass production because they couldn't do mass production. They were doing small artisan batches, and that was the problem.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

And that would have been good for the the storage of all the product too, right? But like before that sales, like obviously the more stock you have, yeah, the more it costs you, right? So it doesn't sell.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah, I probably would have done something a little bit differently. I may have kept more product over in Vietnam and India, worked out, you know, that's probably one different thing that I would do if it was if if I was doing it again, or or if I restart the business, I would probably store more product over there and bring it in when I needed it, not have a massive third-party warehouse. But you've got that's another balance, you know. You've got to it's not just a yes, that's definitely the answer. It's you've got to test that as well and see how that goes. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

All right, we're getting towards the end now, I think. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Uh the best piece of advice that I've ever received is probably to not be like just not to be complacent, like you've just got to be careful. Like that's the best piece of advice that I've had. What what do you mean by complacent? Well, you've just got well, you know, not to assume. Like you can't you can't assume that every you've got to actually keep going. You've got you you don't have you can't you can't assume that everything's okay all the time. You've got to literally be on your guard in business. Like you've got to be, you've got to be watching everything. Yeah. You can't, you you can't, you know, once you take your foot off the accelerator, you've got to you've just got to be careful. Like you yeah, you never be complacent. Like you've just You can never take everything for granted either, can you?

SPEAKER_02 47:32

No things change. Like if you think about your business from 2014 to post-COVID, just you know, what you only closed it last year or the year before. What what what were all the different like I know we're going through another funny stage again with the economy and you know, the wars and all this stuff. So what what did you go through in that time? Because I know it's never stayed, it's something is always happening around the world and in our environment.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

So yeah, I think well COVID was the big one, I think. Yeah, the I think that was the very big one. I mean, I would j before with Zakia, it was, you know, we were still, you know, sort of learning the business, getting used to it, getting into it, and then COVID hit. So it was, you know, it was it and and and the the thing was COVID was bittersweet. It was really good for the business, but then, you know, when all the shipping costs, you know, went through the roof and everything else, that was just that's when it was like, no, we can't do this. It's just not it's not possible. Yeah, it's not just not possible to do it. And you've got to make a decision at some point because you don't know when it's gonna end. We we we were all in the same boat. We didn't know what was going, you know, it's the same as whatever we've got now. Yeah, we don't know, yeah, where is it gonna end? Is it you know that's the thing, is it and there's it there's that's why you can't be com you can't you can't there is always something around the corner. It's you know, there's not you you can't sit there and just think, oh, smooth sailing. That would be nice.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

There's no such thing as there.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

So if every small business owner l if every small business owner listening today could do just one thing this week, what would you tell them to do?

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Oh, I'd look at their costs, like look where all their costs are coming from. Like that would be the first thing. If they don't know, and they probably do know, but they need to actually go through their costs all the time. They probably don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

So that that's the that's the biggest thing. How do you do that in your business?

SPEAKER_01 49:33

I was onto it, like I I did, I watched, and that's probably why I called the business, you know, at the time that I did to actually put it on hold was because of the like the the the costs in the business. Like it was Yeah. Well but we yeah, we were on top of when I say we were on top of it, I was aware there was, you know, there was times when that I had to make some very all through my career I've had to make some very, very difficult decisions on costs, like where the cost savings come from. So it's not new to me, but it's I think it's one of those things that you know some people are just they're they're either blind to it, they don't want to know, or you know, they they literally when business is going well, nobody cares about it. No. Nobody cares about it. When business is when your business is going really well, it's like, ah, never mind, you know, but you need to know what those costs are all the time, or they'll they'll it they'll get you. They'll get you at some point.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah. Interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 50:31

Or what's something you've learned about building a successful brand that most business owners get completely wrong? So sorry, Asm. So what's something you've learned about building a successful brand that most business owners get completely wrong? So what have you learned that other business owners get wrong?

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Oh, what have I learned? I've probably learnt a lot and got a lot wrong. Like I've got a lot wrong. Difficult question. Yeah. What have I learned? I've well, I've I mean I've I've learned, you know, like you know, that you've got to you've got to actually watch everything. Like you do have to watch everything in your business. But then you've got to balance that of being, you know, you've also got to let people do their their job as well. And it's very hard when you're, you know, that close to the business, and most business owners are, and especially most small business owners are. We're very close to our businesses, and when you see somebody's not quite doing it the way you want it, it's very hard to not tell them. But then, you know, what if you left them and what if it was great? You know, it's all the the what ifs, and that's you know, probably I probably learned a lot of you know, sort of self managing my, you know, sort of control, like, you know, not being over-controlling in the business as well. But but it's hard, like it's not an easy thing, and it's not, you know, you kind of do it and go, today I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be in control and something something happens. Something happens and then you go boy, I better get back in control again.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

Did you did you ever have to deal with difficult customers?

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Always. Oh god. Yeah, how did you deal with them? I I don't mind dealing with difficult customers. I I think I think you know it's it's just an it's also a reward for the b I always think of it that if you're dealing with a difficult customer, you're actually talking to them about your business and you're actually it's an opportunity and dealing with them and handling it, and I've dealt with many, like many, many, many over my career in in corporate and everywhere. Like, so it's not it's not hard, but I think it's just a matter of understanding what they're pro and solving their problem. Like if it's a genuine, you know, genuine problem and it can be solved, everything can be solved. There's nothing that can't be solved.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

I think um I've always taken the the sort of view that if you have a difficult customer, you're often learning a lot about how you could fix your business. So if you could keep some of your difficult, I mean, depending on what they're difficult about, but but sometimes you can learn, like there's might be a process or a system or something that we can improve that makes their thing. And you know, Australians generally don't complain, so we they just walk away mostly. And so you don't often get that opportunity to fix what you I mean, I just had a client walk away from one of her suppliers because she sent a note asking for something and they took two weeks to get back to her. And then she sent another note and they took another two weeks to get back, and she said, I can't work with people that take so long. And she just she took a business salesman. And I said, Did you ever have that conversation with anybody? And like she said, no, I just took it away. I could just annoy. And I just thought they probably could have spoken to somebody and given them the opportunity to fix that. There could have been a whole raft of reasons why. But it's interesting that if people do take the time to complain, it's often a gift that we should listen to because people don't always complain, they just walk away. And then you go, What did I do wrong? You know, so you don't often learn from that. So or you could ask them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

I used to thank like I'll always thank somebody if they bring a complaint because it's it is it's it's as important as selling something, you know, fixing fixing problems is part of business. Like that's what that's what we're there, that's what we're there to work for, is to fix problems most of the time. Yeah, and to keep keep your business going really well.

SPEAKER_05 54:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Yeah, fantastic. Deb, how did you manage one of the last things? How did you manage your work-life balance? That's always a big one for small business owners.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Yeah, I've I've always been good at that. Like I I I make time. I think as well, you know, I've my husband is I think he he understands it very, very well. And so he would make sure that things were booked as well in advance, so that we did have a good work. And and all through my like both businesses that I've had, I've had a really, really good work-life balance. So how did you how did you learn to how did you work that out? I think it's just you know, I I love working, like you know, that's the other side of it is that sometimes, you know, like work has also been, you know, my hobby. So that's hard for a lot of people to actually understand because sometimes you actually enjoy working. So it's not, you know, like what is work-life balance? For some people, it's you know, like I like to get things cleared up and you know, then I can relax as well. So it it depends on what people's definition is of work life balance. If it's, you know, making sure that you go on 10 holidays a year, well, that's different than you know, making sure your brain's nice and clear, that you've got everything organized in your work site, and that you go on one holiday a year. So it's I think it just, you know, as long as I've got in my runs and my fitness and you know that side of it, then I would be and I I've made time for that. And I think you have to make time for that. But that's that's discipline as well. It's not just, you know, it's like washing the windows when the floor needs cleaning. Some people prefer to be sitting down at the desk going, oh, but I'm working rather than going and it's an excuse. So you know, some people complain about work life balance, but are they really complaining about work life balance or are they doing really what they want to do? So is it an attitude, do you think? Well, maybe like it needs a it needs a discussion. And also, like I said, it's it is very different. Some people's idea of of work life is is not the same as somebody else's. I actually love working. Like I I love working. I love business, I love talking about business, I like being in business, and I like the act the business activity. It's it I I think it's you know, a lot um it sounds weird, but I think it's actually quite fun. And I think a lot of it.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

I think it's weird. I think Kristen and I can totally agree, or I certainly can totally agree with that. I enjoy working.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

I do too. And it's you know, it's a there's a social side to it. There's there's a lot that you miss when you're in, you know, like I've I've been through a corporate career as well as, you know, having, you know, uh uh my businesses as well. And you know, there's the social aspect to to working. So it's yeah. I don't think everybody should look at work as being, you know, the biggest drag. You know, that's what we're on the planet to do. Like we're we're here. We're built to work, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 57:33

We are we're well we're nothing's gonna have happened if we just enjoy what you do and you get a buzz out of it, and it gives you I guess it it gives you, you know, something to do, I guess, and something to look forward to, and you your brain's getting used and you solving things and working things out.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

I think some, you know, there's a new thing that you know people get their birthday off for. I think a lot of people like used to love going to work on their birthday and getting a cake and No, I didn't like the cake, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

No, no. We could choose the choose the cake. Didn't like the cake or the singing happy birthday yet.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Yeah, but some people do, you know, that's the difference, is that some people, you know, go home to the cat and the cat doesn't sing to you. You take and you take, you know, most of the cake home for the kids and Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

It's a sort of it's that it's that team and and uh working towards common goals as well and achieving things and stuff can be very exciting. So what's next for you, Deb? What's what's on the cards?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Well, I'm back at a business that I started twenty years ago. Oh my gosh. So full circle. Yeah, so yeah, that that's a funny story as well because I, you know, I sort of as this, you know, sort of bit of a lull with Zakia is there that I was looking for something to do, and I I caught up with the the the guy that we started the business twenty years ago, and he said, Well just come and finish what you started. So yeah, but so it's back in medical, which is quite quite exciting. So yeah, and I love doing that, and I do I I you know he he he treats as if I'm still in business with him, but I do, you know, all the things that nobody else wants to do, which I just love doing. So yeah, there's nothing there's nothing that I really won't won't do. And I I want to see that business succeed as well because it's you know that the medical industry is a very, very difficult industry as well. And talk about pricing, that's another sort of thing. Oh, it's a whole thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Yep, yeah. And it's a difficult industry, it's a it's a very it's a hard industry, it's a busy industry, it's a big industry too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 59:33

You know, and uh well he's small business in, you know, sort of we're we're one of the very small players, but you know, he's he's kept that business going for 20 years. And is he a specialist or something? No, no, no. He's he he's a bio he's but he's a biomechanical engineer and he so he does a lot of design of products as well, but he likes to work with doctors to do design of products. Yeah, right. So yeah, so it's a nice that's Horton Medical, so it's a nice Yeah. It's a it's a great that's a great area to be in. Like that's you know, that medical space, you know, you really are you know solving problems like big problems as well. Yeah. And he does a lot of working like with doctors. So he'll go because because these doctors all need, you know, something. Like there's you know, some little bit of something that you wouldn't even really think, oh my goodness, what is that? You know, you look at some of these products and you think, what on earth is that for? And you know this is to make surgeries easier and yeah, and it's crazy, it's like a workshop, like it literally is, you know, there's metal bars and you know, silicon things and you know, stuff that gets put together for lifting uteruses and goodness knows what else. So it's it's it's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting the way that and he's his business is a little bit different as well because he does the manufacturing. So it's you know, like a lot of the medical device products are you know, distributors around Australia, and that's what they do. They bring them in from you know the bigger companies and they distribute them, but his is a little bit niche because not only does he bring in a couple of products but he also designs and makes some products as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Sounds similar to uh what you used to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Well that that's it, it's a bit like homewares, but in a different different area.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

Well, we as we bring this plane into land. Kate, any final thoughts from you?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:22

Um no, I just I like I love your comment about the windows and the floors. Yeah. I I've not heard it before, and I absolutely love it. Oh, really? Yeah, no, I've never heard that before. So that's that's my takeaway. Plus, I never realized or never actually thought before, and I should have been a bookkeeper about the fact that you have to put your retail price high if you're also selling wholesale sales. Yeah, I'd never thought about that. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Or if you're thinking of selling, yeah. The thing is you've got to, you know, some of these small some small businesses, and especially in the creative area, they they you know go to the markets, they do these things and they they start selling the product at a very low price, and then think, oh gosh, I need a network. And then they're going, but what am I gonna do with the price? I can't, you know, yeah, there isn't anything to move. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Yeah, my they got to start off thinking big rather than start off thinking small. And with their systems, like this is my advice to anybody, with their systems and their pricing, they've got to think big. So if they think, oh, we don't need a computer system, we don't need a system for that, we're we're too small. They're wrong. They need to have, you know, their business cards organized, their opening of the door, whatever it is, like their everything that they do day to day, they need to document it, however they want to document it, wherever they want to document it, and have a proper system that they add to all the time because one day they're gonna have to start from scratch, and doing it on a massive level is much harder than actually starting off and just building on it and and putting it into place.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

So really good words. And I think my takeout is different pricing, but also I've loved how you've had a very different and varied career, and I love the fact that you love business and that you got a great joy out of everything that you've done, you know. So I think that's that's like a great legacy, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

And also, you know, going back and working for somebody is you know something that so many people said to me, Oh, you won't be able to do that, you won't be able to work for but I can, like I'm more than happy to work for for Horton now.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

I'm not sure I can do that, but anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:37

And you've been listening to Small Business Sorted. Thanks, Deb. We really enjoyed chatting with you. And uh hopefully we'll get you back again, right? There's plenty to talk about, I think. Yeah, thank you. It's been yeah, it's been fun. Yeah.