Special Guest - Nicole Alos

The Pantomime Horse Grows a Third Pair of Legs 🍺

A first for us, someone else at the bar. And she earned her special tankard.

Nicole Alos — founder of Socratyc, executive coach, and creator of Socratyc Sidekick — heard the steam engine episode, recognised exactly what Kieron was describing from her own leadership work, and emailed in. So, we pulled up a third stool.

What followed is one of the best conversations we've had. Nicole built an AI roleplay tool that lets executives practise difficult conversations before they have them — closing what she calls the knowing-doing gap. She used her own tool to practise pitching to a venture accelerator. She got in. Out of 3,600 applicants to Lovable's She Builds competition, she was one of 210 accepted into a 48-hour AI build-a-thon.

And she did all of it while homeschooling her neurodivergent son as a single mum — working with European clients before he wakes, then after he sleeps chasing West Coast clients into the night. 

There's a framed photo on her wall of him aged five, taking notes on her presentation practice. Now he's embarrassed to tell his classmates his mom has an AI product — 'Mom, stop it' 😂

Also in this episode: what's left of leadership when AI takes the admin (spoiler: the relationships — which delights some leaders and horrifies others), the Socratic guardrails that turned a 17% drop in student maths results into a 127% improvement, whether American confidence is backed by competence, and Nicole's answer to yesterday's third-beer question — is AI conscious? Hers might surprise you.

Two mates and a new friend. A bar. And all they want to talk about is AI.

Pull up a stool — we'll get the beers in. 🍺

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Excellent. Well, shall we shall we stop messing around and actually get this pantomime horse of a podcast underway? And um, for those of you who are watching rather than listening, you can't help noticing that the pantomime horse has got six legs in this special edition. So um can I say a very warm welcome to our special guest today, uh Nicole Alos. And Nicole, if I've said if I said that wrong, because Kieran always texts Mickey out of my northern accent, if I've said that wrong, then sincere apologies, please correct me. But welcome. Welcome, Nicole. And it is super ridiculously early in the US. So thank you for getting up and thank you for for chatting to us. It's much appreciated. Did um did Kieran get you did Kieran get you a tankered down behind from the bar? Did he uh he said he was going to? I don't think but I mean I've got to. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I hope I earn it. I I hope I earn it. We'll see at the end if I've earned it, right?

SPEAKER_04 0:53

No, no, no, you need to have a tankard while you're chatting, although I suspect your tanked will uh will consider nothing more strong than coffee, or I hope so given the early time in the year. So thanks for Kim. Thanks for getting it. Um this conversation came about because you contacted us um after the steam engine episode. And um just as a quick reminder, uh Kieran talked about um steam engines in the 19th century being replaced by electrical engines and people in mills just swapping one form of power for another, but actually changing the way they worked. And the analogy between uh that and AI and uh how people are not really using AI for transforming their businesses, but just using it to write better emails or write better reports, etc. And uh longer emails. Well, longer emails, yeah, and longer reports, and actually very generic ones. Um and uh Nicole, you asked if we'd be up for a conversation about uh AI and uh how that could be used practically in transforming leadership. So um so we said yes, and here we are, and we've got our bar stools, and we're sat at the bar and we're ready to go. So Nicole, I wondered if you'd just take a few minutes to uh share with our audience a little bit about uh you and uh your background, the things that you're doing, and the things that you've been you've been working on recently, because um you and I have had a conversation. I think it's very interesting, but I will shut up and let you let you talk for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Well, thank you for having me here. I appreciate it. Um so my background is all sales and customer success leadership and executive sales leadership. And about seven years ago, I started my company, Socratic, with the thought of how can I support individuals, especially leaders, in connecting with their authentic leadership style after spending a whole career ensuring that everybody said the same thing, we had the same messaging, and I just realized this is not the way. Um, so over the past seven years, really built up the business around tools like everything disk, five behaviors, these frameworks that leaders can get connected with and really at least have a frame of reference of where to start. And then um, I don't know, maybe two years or so into owning my company, I realized I was standing behind all these other frameworks and all these other companies. Um, and so I really made a concerted effort to focus on what I knew to be true, my you know, my leadership experience and things like that. So became a certified executive coach, worked a lot. Right now I work a lot with CEOs, venture back founders, as well as entrepreneurs and other leaders in being able to again understand others and also um really understand what's needed to be an effective leader. And over the past, I guess it was last year, I realized that there was this huge gap between me sending these founders off into these conversations with, you know, investors or CEOs with board members and what was actually happening in the moment. Um so there would be this, these great intentions, like, okay, I've got it, I've got it. And they would come back. And in the moment, they it just didn't work out as planned, right? Um, and I was really trying to figure out how can I support this situation. And I came across a tool that was used for um, it was used for presentations like filler words and you know, how are you how are you communicating? And I decided to invest in that tool and I built out the tool out a tool that is basically an AI role play tool, allowing for these frameworks that we've been talking about, but really connecting that knowing doing gap through this technology. Um, and so it's been a wild ride for me to go from consultant and coach to like, hey, I'm in tech and you know, this whole this whole piece. So um, and I ended up, I'm in a I'm finishing up a venture capital accelerator that I was shocked that I was um accepted to a few months ago um as a venture-backed uh venture-backed founder.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

So yeah, it's a little bit more about that because I I found that really interesting and actually that kind of almost rapid journey from um a coach and actually now I'm in tech and I'm doing this thing, and actually I'm one of uh only a few companies that have been or a few people that have been asked to do this. So please share a little bit about story because I think it's really interesting, and actually I'd like to understand what you learned from that process.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Absolutely. So um, you know, when I think about I don't know if this is a skill or this is a challenge, but I I often think I can do more than I can. Also often like overly optimistic, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:03

We call we call it bullfidence, bullshitting with confidence.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Okay, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you know what? I can probably um fly this plane. Like I just have this. Okay, but I don't know what the word is in, you know, over there, but anyway. Um, and so I saw this application come through for this, you know, for this venture-backed um accelerator. And I thought, yeah, why not? I can I can do this. Um, you know, and so I I applied, they gave me an eight-minute slot to pitch. And so in the past, I wouldn't have been ready for that pitch. I wouldn't have known where to start. I just I don't even know if I would have moved forward with it. Um, but I was able to use my tool and practice pitching. It's like, okay, what what how do you pitch to an accelerator? And so I was able to practice. And when I when I was able to get in front of the VC, um, I was accepted. So I've spent the past few months just really rethinking how I'm approaching my business, rethinking how I'm communicating what it's all about with an investor lens, a bit, um, just making sure I'm I'm I'm really clear on who is my ideal customer persona, what are the values, what is the problem that I'm solving. So yeah, it's been it's been amazing. And then I just got accepted a couple weeks ago to, are you familiar with Lovable, the lovable AI tool? Yeah, um, they do this she builds competition where you basically send in an idea that you have to build an app that supports social, I think it's like social awareness or something. And out of 3,600 applications, there were 210 of us that got accepted. And so I was in this 48-hour hack at that, like, like, what is happening? Um, but yeah, and so what I'm realizing through all of this is if it wasn't for AI, there's no way I would have been in this opportunity, been a part of this opportunity. And I think that um, you know, I'm I just want to kind of tell as many people as I can, especially women, that there is more out there than rewriting emails and that generative AI can really level the playing field in a lot of ways, especially for underserved populations or or women trying to be like the 2% of founders in that space.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

So lots of that resonated with me um when we talked and uh a few things. One is the kind of tool here and uh uh kind of linked to the things that we've been doing with the King's Fund and with the colleges, the manager coach. So I don't know whether you've got anything to to add about that stuff, but also that kind of uh helping the underserved populations. You know, if you if if our audience has been listening to any of the stuff that we've been doing, you know, that's our that's our core audience, really. That's that's really where we want to target the use of AI and and how we help people do better. But uh Kieran, over to over to you.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, thank you. And an amazing story, I love it. And the um I'd love to know what do you think then? So you did an eight-minute pitch, and maybe you know the answer is what was it that the uh venture capital people thought was that what why do you think they said yes, you're in? Obviously, the quality of your pitch and what you're trying to do, but what of course, of course, it was my charisma, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Um, I mean, number one, I was talking about AI. So anytime AI comes up, venture capitals their ears perk up, right? Um, but number two, I think I was I really connected with a challenge that I've had. And it was clear that I, and it is clear that I really, really believe in this product. And it's something that I wish I would have had 10 years ago or 20 years ago. And so I think that connection of solving a problem that I am living and really being passionate about it is what I've been told, is you know, why I've been a part of the process.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

And is it, I mean, I don't know how recent that was, so maybe you won't know yet, but how different do you is your business for you knowing that there's now someone behind it that's going to kind of presumably wants a return on investment one day, or perhaps it's a grant, but I imagine that they're looking to get something back one day. Does that add a useful layer of accountability, or is that now sort of change things? I always worry about this. Neil and I have talked about this a lot through the years about whether we would want investment in the various companies that we're involved with or not. And yeah, kind of, you know, you it's tricky. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

It's definitely tricky. So thankfully, this accelerator was a non-dilutive accelerator, and so they do have, you know, they do have a stake if there's other investments coming in. But what I've realized is this is such a big part of who I am and what I do. And I just, you know, to have it changed in any way uh would be awful. So what I've realized is really leaning into angel investors, possibly looking at more angel investors to add up to what would be a VC level investment. So that's where I am right now. We had our investment investor swarms where we pitched to 25 investors and yeah, no, it was five, yeah, 25 investors. And then in another month, we do our big showcase to like 60 investors. But um, those that are connecting with me and having these follow-up conversations about investments are the ones that really get it and really a lot of them are ones that would are in the same boat, like, oh, I wish I would have had this, or uh, I have this struggle with having performance conversations or having challenging conversations. So, you know, I think that if we just looked at this from a VC standpoint where they want the hundred X return, my company would not be a good fit, nor would it be a good situation for me.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

So But it is, I mean, that is a huge challenge, isn't it, in the world? Because yeah, the having difficult conversations, kind of just to take that one of many things I'm sure you do. Yeah, yeah, you can go on a training course, can't you? And as you as you rightly pointed out, any kind of training you do, you kind of finish it feeling enthusiastic and ready. Then you go back to your desk and you've got all the catching up of the emails and work you didn't you missed, and probably an hour later you've forgotten all about it. So I love the idea that you've brought the role play tool over the top of that. How have you, how does that kind of work, how does it work for for an individual? Is it text-based? Do they talk to it? What's the how does it work?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So on the um one thing that makes this tool different from other tools out there, or chat or cloud or anything like that, is I'm setting up the scenarios based on my IP or other best practice frameworks. And then I'm also setting up the rubric of what success looks like what a good conversation sounds like. And I can even weight that rubric. So it's when you're getting this feedback and you're getting these results, you know that it's there's a human involved here, and that it's not up to AI to decide this is a great conversation or not. The user experience basically is um there's this practice path, which includes some tutor conversations where you see right now, you see a picture of the persona that you're talking to, and then there's a video of you. Um, and then there's there's closed captioning on the bottom. So you're chatting with someone, and the way that the AI is set up, it does feel, other than the fact that it's just a face, um, it does feel really natural. Um, and then you'll go back and forth. There, the tutor's going to say, like in the performance management conversation, they might say, we're going to learn about the SBI situation, behavior, insight model of having difficult conversations. Do you have a difficult conversation that you have coming up? Let's work through it. So the tutor is actually saying, okay, let's talk about the situation. Let's make it really specific. Okay, what about your situation? So they're actually working through as if they're next to a human. And then there are other experiences that are back and forth role plays. You're just dropped into a conversation as you wouldn't realize. And um, and then you have that back and forth. And there's examples where after five minutes, I can set it that the AI just is done. So it's like, okay, bye. So just trying to make it as as real as possible. And then at the end, they get a score and they can see the transcript and they can see some of those words and sentences change to be stronger, and then they can pull all that out for the kind of in real life conversations. So I'm a little biased, but I think it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

So yeah, it sounds very good. And in your, I guess, I mean, that's so my to go back to where you sort of the the at least the episode that you picked up on us was the our steam engine um episode as it's now called. Um that one of the challenges I see, and I just wonder if if you have plans to kind of push your AI towards this be interesting, or whether you would have seen this in your coaching work, um, is getting ex execs particularly, but really anybody, to kind of lift their eyes to the horizon a little more than they are now with AI. That and the the point you made, I guess, there about people using it simply for a bit of email rather than seeing what actually it can unlock for you and your your example of your own experience there. Have you seen execs doing that well? Have you a plan to kind of maybe build some AI tools within your roleplay to help with that? I mean, that's it's a world that I'm fascinated by is getting organizations to really kind of properly embrace what this might mean for them and their and their organization.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, so there are um there are role plays where they're actually you're able to actually click through a specific, whether it's chat or clot or whatever the tool is, and the tutor can tutor you through those conversations. So it could be like, hey, let's use chat to um to strategize about our competition. And so in the tool, they can share their screen and kind of click through it. The the challenge is if you have AI hesitancy, it's going to be very hard to get to get onto my tool in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Yeah, indeed.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

So yeah, so I've been working really hard to try to figure out how to make that um, you know, how to reduce that friction and that type of thing. But I also believe that a lot of the leaders that I'm talking to feel a shift and there is this concern about what is my role as a leader? And and half of the things that they're doing now, I think they're realizing won't be a part of their role. And then they realize what's left. And what's left is the relationship. What's left is their ability to lead and communicate and to craft a vision and get people aligned. And so for some people, that's amazing because that those are their strengths. But for other leaders, that is horrifying because they're used to a lot more of the admin part of leadership or the top-down sort of sort of approach. Um, so having that pain has been more some leaders in the past that weren't really open to our coaching or consulting, it are more open to it now because of their seeing this sort of discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

I think that's right. I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because there's sort of sometimes when I think about AI and the future of work, I kind of think it's an elephant, it can elevate everybody to a more leading role. There's a kind of Gartner's view of um the world one of Gartner's view is the future of organizations is effectively a an individual running a team of AI agents to do whatever the thing was their team was doing before, or indeed maybe something new. Um, and you think, well, that's kind of everybody needs to kind of understand a bit more about it, assuming that is the truth of the world, how to delegate, because ultimately you want to think about delegating to AI.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

And how to delegate well, as you know, is about defining the task, defining what good looks like, and then being able to judge whether or not that is good. So I kind of I love I love the idea that we might be able to push kind of everybody up somewhat, but it does raise a question about I can kind of see it. I was thinking about this the other day on a dog walk, it's like I can kind of see the CEO's role might not change that much. They have a lot of tools available to them, but ultimately somebody in an organization still needs to kind of set strategy and decide who gets appointed and all that kind of stuff. But when you get below them, there seems to me to be a very grey area about what happens when you are you know chief of whatever now or chief of all the AI agents. So I uh yeah, it'd be interesting to see. I've I've said for a long time, I think AI is coming for managers jobs. I mean it's going to take out a lot of kind of low-level admin, but I think that's probably a benefit as long as we have enough new jobs. But that kind of getting managers, I think, are the ones that really need to think about this hard about where they are, and I agree with you, it's kind of really about that.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

There are plenty of AI deniers, including Mrs. Watkins. Oh yes, don't see it as part of their future, but it absolutely is. One of the things that I wanted to ask about, Nicole, was um you you've obviously uh worked hard on this uh this amazing tool, but um I don't know if this is appropriate or not, and you can tell me if it's not and we'll take it out. But the whole piece about your you're building this while you were homeschooling your boy. Um so that that to me is a really tremendous part of this this story, and and if you wouldn't mind sharing, I would be, I'd be very grateful.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Absolutely. So um a couple years ago, so I'm a single mom and it's just the two of us. So maybe, I don't know, maybe three years ago, my son got a diagnosis that he was neurodivergent and he was really struggling in school. And there's really, at least in this area, there are some really, really high needs schools. And then there's public school, like it's it's just at least around here, it's just not aligned with what he needed. So I pulled him out of school, and so I've been homeschooling him and running my business. So be like, that's why this time is like afternoon for me because I'm used to getting up early working before he wakes up. Um, and then after he goes to bed, trying to find clients on West Coast time. And this is the first year that he was he's been in the cyber program. So he's been home, he's he's been home, but at least he has someone else teaching him. And that's the only way that I've been able to really ramp up my business um to this level and do all these extra things that in the past I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do. But um yeah, it's really interesting because he has a kind of front seat view of what I'm doing and the types of, I don't know, the types of conversations, the types of meetings that I think a lot of kids don't have with their parents. So um I have a little, I have a um a frame. Photo of I was practicing a presentation. He was probably like five, and he was taking little notes. And I was like, that's not bad. Um, so I framed it up there to just kind of remind myself of okay, you know, this is this is not easy, but he's seeing something that hopefully as he grows up, he'll be able to remember and will that will influence him in some way.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Go on, Dan.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

I was just gonna say, Kieran, are you gonna you can tell the Finn story? I was gonna tell the Finn story. You went into him.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

You went into the Finn story it was. I I was gonna share that my um in lockdown. I had the same experience with my uh children sort of sitting in whilst they're hearing me on calls. And I always thought that this is amazing for you, an amazing experience, really, because you never get to hear what you know. They I did once take my my older children to work one day when they were quite young, and um I I've shown them a flip chart and let them have a play on the flip chart. And for ages afterwards, they were just telling everybody that what I do for a living is draw pictures on big pages of paper, which was true back in the day. It was true. Maybe they're on to something of actually being in meetings and seeing what actually goes on. I think is it opens your eyes and maybe maybe they oh my god, it's probably just the same now. Why do you do that all day?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Like, oh, that's a bad word, okay. You need to go.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Not for me, of course, but my clients I'm like, oh okay, all right. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

My Finn story was was Kieran went into the the bedroom one day, and Finn was at the computer and he was chatting away, he's chatting away, and Kieran said, Who are you talking? I'm talking, I'm having get out, I'm having a meeting with Uncle Neil.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, he thought he was he was pretending to have a meeting with Neil. He's seen so many times me talking to Neil, and he was just there kind of going, yes, and like tapping away on this keyboard that's not five years old at the time. It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Oh, I love that. That's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah, that's very good.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And I think a lot about what his life is going to be like, you know, just with when we were talking about AI and just how I don't know, like he uses because he's in a cyber program, he uses WhisperFlow and he's using all these tools. Like they'll just jump on a Zoom or they'll do they're doing these polls, and he's he was in fourth grade. So I'm like, you know, it's interesting what skills rise to the top and what skills maybe we thought were so fundamental, fundamental that aren't um maybe aren't going to be a part of their their day-to-day as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

And you talking about whisper flow. I mean, I am so Finn is now six and they're still doing the handwriting thing all the time. And you've got to be able to do handwriting. I was on a call with a college the other day and they're talking about getting the handwriting right, and I just keep thinking, I mean, I when? I mean, I happen to still write handwritten notes, but I'm rare even now with my colleagues. But my kids don't ever do that. They will type either type notes or much rather just dictate and whisper flow. Obviously, it makes that amazing and clears up all your nonsense. Well, it's outcoherent.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

It's funny that you mentioned that when I went through that 48-hour build-a-thon, I did everything through. I didn't I didn't realize that whisper flow was my main was my main interaction. So I had chat, I had chat um take my whole transcript and give me an overview of the experience. Oh my gosh, it was like I was crying. It was it was like at two in the morning. You were talking about like it, yeah, it's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

So I worry that my concern in this, which is interesting, you know, there's a lot of people ask me when I'm speaking on stage, they'll ask, well, invariably someone will talk about the risk of cognitive offloading from AI doing the heavy lifting for you. And I've heard I saw I joined a uh webinar last week where one of the chaps was talking about how he noticed in himself that he and he said I've I've purposely changed the way I use AI now to be more meaningful with it and to keep my thinking in me. Here's the thing that makes me wonder when I I can articulate an argument and talk about it, right? Or a position or whatever you're trying to say. When's when you try and write that down, it normally clarifies things, doesn't it? I always think that you have to make the bridge and and think, oh, hang on a minute, that doesn't really belong next to that piece. And I haven't really thought that through it all very well when you're in the pub having a chat. I my my question, I guess, it's not really a concern. My question is whether tools like Whisperflow and all of the other and the transcripts that turn it into wonderful prose remove an important step, or whether actually it's just helpful get the AI to do it and point it out to you and it draws the join and you don't need to worry about it anymore. I don't know. Do you have a thought on that?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

So I have, I might have a different viewpoint because of I I do also uh coach neurodivergent executives as well. So I'm an ADHD and executive function coach. I just have all these things of like, okay, what does someone need? I'll get certified in it. And so that was part of it. Um, so I I do think that for some people it is really important to write things down, to have it in front of them, to be able to, that is part of their cognitive process and their their problem-solving process, um, to just ensure that there's alignment. On the flip side, there are there are so many people that are already have this such high cognitive load already. And to be able to have tools like that actually provide more clarity because you're able to focus on these big, like, okay, what am I trying to say? What is the intention? So I think just like anything else, you you know, I having a one size fits all approach isn't going to work. Um, but I but I agree with you that I think there really needs to be this like AI hygiene of what are we going to use it for, what are we not going to use it for? And to just make sure that we're not just offloading all of this, which would be a shame for all of us for sure. So, and there are a lot of um, you know, there are a lot of sort of ethical AI approaches or or organizations now that are saying, hey, here's here are the best practices of like minimizing tokens or when to use it, when not to use it as well. And you can even build that into your model as well. Like, here's what I'm going to use you for. And if I bring you something else, I need you to flag it.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah. So and that's some of the certainly some of the education tools um I've seen are the so the more Socratic to take your uh company name. Um, but the more Socratic approach where you're nudging, not answering, where you're asking more questions of the when someone doesn't understand something, does have the uh much better impact in certainly in learning. So you would think that that is a reasonable evidence uh you of a guardrailing it so that it doesn't give you the answer, and then uh that it does help with actually cognitive cognitive function as opposed to cognitive offload. So that's I read a I read very quickly an article that was saying that the this same tool without guardrails, it was for for learners, for students. Um without guardrails, maths maths results when tested later went down at 17%, I think it was, and when switched to be Socratic and take you through the questioning and guiding you, uh 127% improvement. So really interesting. Same AI platform with different effectively different guardrails into how it's how it's used. That's really it's kind of really telling, I think, into into where we need to go. Does your son's cyber, the cyber program, do they use AI on that? Is it is it an AI platform or is it more of a kind of all jump on a Zoom call and listen to the teacher?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Um, so they it's incredible. It's it's a global program. So he has class, he has classmates from all over the world. He's a teacher in Spain. I mean, it's and that's why we decided to do that. Was, you know, I I I wanted this global view, and I also didn't want our state or our our federal government to say what he can and can't learn personally. So um, but through that, there's a lot, there's they have this whole plan that's interactive. So there's some classes and then there's some things that they're doing on their own, but they're very intentional about the types of classes and and things like that. But he is embarrassed to tell any of his classmates that he has a mom that's like this AI product. He's like, mom, stop it. Like so AI is just they won't, they don't want to use AI anything, AI voices, AI pictures. Yeah. So I am the secret.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

What does your mom do? She's a coach. I don't want to talk about anything else.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

So I'm I just I find that I do find that fascinating, especially because it's a global view as well. So maybe there's a hope out there, right? That it's not not going to be totally taken over.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

So that sounds amazing. I read about a school in the Middle East uh where they have a similar setup, but they they also have an in-person come in and they allow total flexibility. So because they've got a lot of international traveling families. So there are people will come in and say, Well, we're we're in town for October, so can little Johnny come to school for October? Yeah, can he come on just Wednesdays or whatever? So they allow on-site whenever possible, but otherwise it's all online learning and just incredibly uh cosmopolitan and international in its approach. Sound, I do, I mean, all the things you said, you know, who's to say the national we have a national curriculum here and it's very clear on what you're supposed to know and not know at each level and kind of think, really? I mean, yeah, they are clever folk that do this, but maybe a mix and a bit of a mismatch and uh uh mashup, I think it would be the phrase, wouldn't it, from from across the globe is going to be a way better experience, surely. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, and because I was homeschooled, and technically I'm still homeschooling him in the program. So there are some things like there's there's some things that we still work on because it's not being taught in the other. So this is more structure than less structure, but I but yeah, I think it's I think it's a great opportunity. And then I think about the example that you mentioned of that total flexibility. All this has made me realize why are we not offering this to adults? Like wow, you know, hey, like the goal is to to have you learn, or the goal is to have you do X, Y, and Z. Why are why I just feel like there's so many shoulds around the corporate environment that I don't think need to be there. Um, too.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

And the life of learning is, I mean, the one thing I keep hearing time and time again is a, I mean, we've known for quite a long time that the training you might do at university or college or or uh you know at technical college or wherever, the training you do then is not going to be serving you well in 15 years' time. It will be the 15 years between that we've known that for a long time, but AI has just put that on steroids, doesn't it? Of you if you don't keep up with it, I mean, yeah, that I do worry about those people that are. I was gonna name name Mrs. Watkins again. I'll better be careful. But by not engaging with it. Is she not in? Good.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

She's gone out, especially, so we could do this recording without her shouting down the phone at other people.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

She's not gonna come turn up here, is she?

SPEAKER_04 33:57

You'll know about it in advance, you'll hear her coming. I had a couple of questions. Uh just to move us off the education. The education stuff is super important, and and for our audience who's listened before, the he will know that uh uh that we uh we uh education is one of our biggest areas, and and actually majority of our customers are are it are in that area too. But um, I was thinking about um as I understand it, Nicole, you're very much in the private sector, we're very much kind of in the public and sector in the education uh piece. And I and I wondered if there are things that we could learn or or or pick up, or even uh we call it RD, rob and duplicate, um uh uh from from what's going on in the US and bring over to the UK. It feels like you guys are further ahead, but is that just hype? I don't know. Or uh yeah, I are there any lessons that you think we can learn uh on this side of the pond uh from what's going on over in the US?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I don't know that we are further ahead. And I and again, I'm I'm very biased because I pulled my son out of a program and homeschooled him in this situation. So maybe I know others would have a different view, but I do feel like there are these um these fundamentals that are incredibly important. And part of that is play, part of that is learning through play, creativity, all these other things. And that's really being um, I don't know, that's that's really less and less and less every year. So what I understand of the the education system there, there are a lot more folk, there is a more of a focus on the fundamentals and the things that we know have children thrive. Um, so I'm sure that there are parts of of both sides that are, you know, would be really helpful to to children.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

But um I And what about and what about for leaders in businesses and organizations? What you in because you're dealing with um some pretty senior people across the piece, you're coaching them to do these pictures. They don't you coach them and then they kind of they forget what they're in the in the here at the moment, they they they forget what they were supposed to do. But actually that leaders could learn in the public sector here from the corporate leaders in the US, of the people that you're teaching, what what what are the big lessons that you would take out of out of what they're picking up?

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Um I do think that there's a sense of um there's there's a sense of an innovation of let's let's do something, um, even if it's not very iteration that um that European leaders I think could could learn and underst and being able to understand that um um because here I think there's a lot less of this is the expert in the field and being able to separate um well I at least I know from you know if I think about leaders in in Germany, there's there's such a focus on um here's the expert, we're gonna going to let the expert do do his or her thing. Where here I think there's um there's less reliance on that piece of it, which can be really positive because I think it allows for that innovation and allows for that growth. Um, but it also can be make that leader feel a little bit like a fish fish out of water, especially through AI, where it's like, what is what is my responsibility and how where where is my role too?

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Yeah. So I should I should say for Kieran and our audience benefit, uh Nicole actually has clients in Europe as well as in the actually Nicole works globally, not just uh not just in in the US. So her so her so her insights are really interesting to me because I think she does have a view which not many other people have in this in this kind of area. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

I will say though that um I will say that leaders and just individuals are more like than uh than not, in that I did my executive coaching program. I specifically picked a cohort that was out of London, the She Builds program. I got together about 25 women that were a part of that, and a lot of them were in the UK and all over the world. And there are so many commonalities. Where I think we're so much more alike than we are different, which is just blows me away, honestly. Um, how again, how how we have the common challenges, but we also have these common, like a lot of us, this this focus on wanting to have an impact, wanting to do something that matters. Um, but then also there's so much going on, you know, what's what's the most important too?

SPEAKER_04 38:51

Yeah. Um, we're coming towards the end of our time together. Uh, I had a pub question for you. Um so yesterday when we did our podcast, Kier and I had a what he described as a third beer required conversation, which was is AI conscious or not? And um uh and uh before I'm not gonna expand any more other than to ask you, do you think AI is conscious or not?

SPEAKER_00 39:24

I think it's very close to being conscious, and I do think that we need to focus on regulation and and guardrails. Uh, there have been a couple situations where I'm like, wait a minute. So yeah, I think we're very close, especially when we think about like Claude Fable.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

That's happening right now.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

It's incredible. And it is, I mean, yeah, it's an amazing kind of area, really, of it is a kind of third beer in the pub conversation, really. But I mean, I think it is people are looking into it in uh more seriously than ever. It used to be a kind of couple of sort of people seen as the kind of the nuts, the crazy nuts, that believed that they were actually talking to something that was sentient and and had a consciousness. But um, yeah, it's interesting. I know I've I read anthropic now monitor Claude's mood. So, and maybe that is a sort of uh it's probably a kind of technical way into how it changes to a day or whatever, rather than actually mood as we might understand it, but who knows?

SPEAKER_04 40:26

I monitor your mood through the day, and actually I can definitely tell when it's and it's four o'clock. It's not quite three o'clock, yeah. I I feel like we've we've grilled you, Nicole. We've we've we've grilled you, so apologies. Anything we can share that you might find useful or interesting?

SPEAKER_00 40:44

So I would love to understand um when you think about um leaders from the US that you've encountered, or even guests that you've encountered, what is the I don't know, maybe what is like the biggest misconception that you have, or what maybe that's a little loaded, but um, you know, are I get well okay, so what what is the what is the perception of Americans right now?

SPEAKER_02 41:14

There is well there's two in in work-wise, there's sort of two things I would say that is probably more perception and uh prejudice or than than reality. One is uh a real great thing, I think, is there is apparently it appears to me a lot more confidence uh when you talk to an American leader generally than than others. They sort of project themselves in a much more confident way with more energy. Um I've long since said I wish people would understand how their own energy, perceived energy, reflects on and impacts on the people around them. You know, that person in the meeting with the dour face that's just looks at you like they hate you constantly, and you kind of and it saps energy from others and it shuts people down when perhaps they've got something useful to say. So I love that for side of it. The criticism side of it slightly, and I don't know if this is really true anymore, but is um a uh I'm trying to find some polite words. Um cultural awareness. I mean, I think one of the great things about doing business in Europe is you are often having to understand or try to understand, I'm not sure I'm very good at it, you know, how different cultures, well hardly different cultures, but certainly different nations would come at something, you know, with a sort of broadly in the in Europe, you've got kind of Scandies, you've got Germany, and then you've got the Southern Europeans and the French ways, and and and most of them have slightly different kind of approaches to how they do business, and you're almost brought up with that, not in all businesses, but certainly it's part of daily life here. Yeah, um, and I I certainly when I have worked in the past with American bosses, thinking back to our very early days when we met Neil, um, there was a very large lack of uh accommodation. This is 30 years ago now, so I should be it's a long time ago, but a lack of accommodation of other needs. It was like, no, surely this is the way to that was my those are my two thoughts off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

Yeah, I can I can I guess pull back to again a long time ago. I used to do a lot of work with um Ford Motor Company, so I spent quite a lot of time in Detroit, um, which was which was interesting wasn't quite a bit of time in New York and those are very different places. But I would say that there's uh a bit like something you said about 10 minutes ago, uh Nicole, about the women that you work with across the country. You've got we've got more in common than we have uh in in the difference, and and actually once you get to chat to people, you know, while uh while there might be a from a certain American leader in the times that we we talked about, um be super confident and and uh uh bulfidence, high bulfidence levels, um uh actually once get to talk to them and understand them then then we we we're people at the end of the day and and I think um uh you've often got to get past that um kind of initial kind of cultural difference uh in order to understand you know uh there's that old joke about walk another mile in in someone else's shoes and um you're a mile away and they've got your you've got their shoes uh so they they can't catch you. So uh but there is something about putting yourself in somebody else's situation. And one of the things I'll come back to the uh uh some other things that you said earlier you know that whole piece about using AI to think about actually having those difficult conversations being able to roll play being able to to to not worry about messing things up because when I was listening to you earlier I was thinking one of the reasons why people don't perform well in the moment is um uh it's what my brother used to call a blackball gibber. And I when we used to play pool together uh pool the game like snooker uh and uh it always get down to the black ball and then the pressure would be on and and if you sink the black ball then you've won but actually you you mess it up because you're you're worried you're overthinking it you're over stressing it. I guess the uh the current analogy is the World Cup penalty takers who uh who are running staggering up and then and then and then missing so uh yeah there's something about actually being able to focus clear everything out and and and get on with it but but worrying about messing things up is a superhuman common trait and worrying about what other people think about is is a superhuman common trait and um being able to practice those things be able to use those tools being able to to be uh not just better at your job but also be a better communicator and be able to alert to other people differently I think is uh is potentially a great asset and I and uh I look forward to hearing uh it hearing how uh you get on with um with your staff in the future because I I I think you're doing some some fabulous work.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Um have you got a final question for Kieran or I we've rabbited on for a long time now but um I also know I also know it's that you've got a whole there's work ahead of you we're Kieran and I are going for our afternoon siesta shortly just we could be so if you had to I mean this is kind of aligned with what we were talking about about you know having these leaders be more curious and and that type of thing when you think about that confidence of someone who is from the US how often is the confidence backed up with confidence in your opinion like if somebody is coming across as very confident is that um you know is that is that typically an indicator of someone's ability or how do you see yeah again another loaded question but well I remember having a conversation with um a fella um uh Mark uh Pagnell I think his name was do you remember um the VC guy Neil long time ago and you and I were meeting him and he said he was talking about gravitas and he said Neil has gravitas and I do not and um and I but I kind of agree because I don't I think gravitas that confidence that is backed by ability and the kind of less need to perform and that kind of side of it I think is I don't know but that there is that kind of confidence isn't there that it comes from a place of solid and I don't know I don't know how how to articulate it really.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

I think my I my my own side of this um is that I have confidence in what I'm doing and I'm not afraid to say when I don't know um and that gives me confidence because let's don't I don't mind I I think I think the joy you mentioned right a long time ago at the beginning of our conversation about authenticity and that's you know your sort of purpose in coaching and I think that is so important to uh and in my mind it's really about trying to get people away from I remember going into business and starting out as a consultant many moons ago and you try you know you change the way you speak and the change the way you write to try and sound more important. And what I notice as you go up the chain of seniority or as you engage with people who are more senior is it all gets stripped away again. You know I mean the most senior people I deal with will send you a one line email that doesn't have any introduction and that's just like no don't do that do this things like that. Whereas you would never dream of writing an email like that as a junior. And I like to think that that is getting slowly in touch with confidence and authenticity. Maybe the the confidence to be authentic perhaps is yeah maybe that's it.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Interesting interesting well maybe that's a good point on which to finish because uh we're running out of time and uh um uh can I just say Nicole thank you so much it's been a really interesting conversation the time has absolutely flown by and um I look forward to talking to you again in the future uh and maybe if you would be so kind you would pull up a bar stool with us once again we'll get your special tankard which we will put behind the bar I'm gonna hold you to that I would love that thank you right well you both have great days thanks once again and uh we will undoubtedly talk to you again very soon thank you thank you take care