Episode 2 Actively Disengaged? It's your fault

This week on Pairing Gone Wrong, we’re talking about actively disengaged employees and the leadership delusion that somehow staff just woke up one day and chose chaos. Spoiler: disengagement usually has receipts. We’re getting into how BCBA leaders contribute to burnout, resentment, and low morale, and why accountability cannot just be for the team when BCBAs helped build the culture in the first place. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Pairing Gone Wrong. My name is Mathios Berhe.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

And I'm Chelsea Mena. And today we're talking about leadership.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

And it's also your birthday coming up, but we're talking about leadership. My bad. Happy birthday, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Thank you, thank you. It is my birthday coming up. I'm definitely older.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

21 suits you well.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

21. I'll be 21 forever. I don't think I would be 21 forever. My peak in life was like 20. What was I thriving in my 20s? I feel like 26.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

That's great. I need to reflect on this. I need to be mindful of what I say next because my kids will hear this.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

They're gonna be like, oh, so I wasn't the peak of your 20s.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

My peak was having them every day.

unknown 0:46

Every day.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Every day is the peak of my life. With my kids. I'm at the pinnacle of everything and thriving.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah, I uh if you asked me what I would like to go back to, it was probably 26. I don't know why 26 comes to mind. Like I genuinely can't tell you what I did at 20.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

That's a good number. That's why we don't remember, so we know it was good. We know it was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

But like that's what comes to my head is like 26. No, I no idea why. But yeah, if I could go back, I'd be 26. But I'm I'm just gonna thrive at 32 over here. I think it's 32.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Respect, respect.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah. How old are you about those?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

You don't, you don't everyone knows you don't ask a man that question. I'm 38, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

You think I think you know, like a day over 25.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Thank you for that. I needed that. I needed that. Yeah, yeah. But I'm pretty sure I'm 38. I've been saying I've been 40 for like five years.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, I was gonna say you always say you're 40, and you know you're not 40.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

No, but yeah, I was just rounding up, and then I found out last year I was 38, and I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I feel like I was rounding too high.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah. How long have I been saying that? That's a little, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

So I feel like since I've known you, you've been like I'm gonna be able to do that. I'm in my 40s, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

That was always my thing. I'm pushing forties. When you went like five years? Yeah. Like five, six?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

I've known you for a minute. So that's funny.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I jumped the gun on that. That's my bad.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I mean, I heard that like in your 40s you're thriving too.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Jay-Z set the stage for us way back when he was wearing button-up shirts, because that was a new thing in hip-hop, and he said 40 is the new 30. So as I approached 40, I was like, oh, I'm turning 30. Yeah. So I'm cool with this. That's why it made sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I believe it because I feel like especially this is like for women, right? Like, women are like pushed to be like younger all the time. So, like, after you get out of your 20s, it's like, dude, like you're losing your youth, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Got it, got it.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Um, I love my 30s so far. Like, I love it so much. And I've heard great things about like turning 40. Because I feel like I just figured out who I am.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Wow. Two shakes.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

So in my 30s, I'm like, I know exactly who I am, exactly what I want, who I want in my circle, who I don't want in my circle. And I feel like I've learned enough to be like I'm sustaining adulthood, right? Like I'm like, yeah, I can afford this house.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

We're not leaving paycheck to paycheck. We made it, right? We got our like adult car. Like, I'm like really adulting, you know? Um I feel like 30s is is the 20s because you're finally getting to live all the fun things that you can sustain yourself, right? Like, I feel like my 20s, I was poor.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So you're like, dude, I can't even afford anything but this ramen right here.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

That part, acid reflux in a cup.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

And now I'm not gonna eat the ramen because you're right, acid reflux, but now I can afford all the ramen I want and some and some steak. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

That part. Because we squat now, so we gotta have the protein. You need protein.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I realized that also in my 30s.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, see, that's when it kind of does start catching up. I'm not feeling that people talk about things start creaking and I get aches here and there. You're not feeling that? I'm not feeling that yet. No. Good for you, cuz you are that's it's the mineral water. Drink more Perrier. That'll help everything.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

That's what I need.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Speaking of ads, we here at just thinking.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Like speaking of ads, we need some.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

If we're gonna keep doing this, I'm not trying to brag, but I feel like I'm personally responsible for their stock increase in the last like 12 years. That's there's no one else I can see drink. No, I shouldn't see.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Like, no one else is out here drinking.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, no, I can't say that. Because we need to make ads so that we can do that. We need everyone else to drink it.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, yeah, but you can bring it to the people. That's a memory.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

No, I feel that. It works. I swear by it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I've heard people say that before, and I was always like, they're joking. But now that I heard it from you, it has to be true.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, I think I dreamt about this the other day, so I knew. I was like, this must be a fact. There's no way I'm making it.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, there's no way. Yeah. I I I'm just still shook that you said you don't have no aches or creaks or nothing.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, no, but it's the steak. So you know, I don't know how people do their protein shakes. I'm doing two scoops minimum every time. So I'm taking a protein shake, like all that powder for sure. I'm putting two scoops in everything. Don't put much milk. I put a gang of uh, what's that called? The Greek yogurt. Shout out to Elas. We we do it, we do it that way. Just pour honey into that thing, and and I'm positive. I mean, I don't know, actually. That is crazy. That's how you know I don't know. It's like, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Like I'm 100% not sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

This has to be. But when I think about it, like my dad was low-key sprinting until his 70s.

unknown 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

So it could be just that just go genetic.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah, it could just be that. But no, it's me.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

It's you, it's my father. I I'm gonna just take it that it's you.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

It's just me.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Um, because the way that like literally yesterday was telling Javi, like, I was like, dude, my knees just hurt. Why did I get a two-story house? Because my knees hurt, like, hurt back.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

The difference in your case is you have dogs the size of horses, and the that force pinging on your knee constantly, yeah, that adds up. So this is like years of exposure to you're right, to irregular blue.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

My genetics couldn't have helped in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

No one's could have, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I have horses running around my house.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

This is why.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah. Anyways, guys, we got off topic there, so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Anyways.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Anyways, but also someone send us an ad so we can, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

That part. Fix these with Perrier.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

We're just gonna have like Perrier, we're gonna have different like protein.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

We're just gonna have ad for the part, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

All the things.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

I need to find a steakhouse. There's not one in no, I'm not even gonna say. I'm not even gonna say the one in Ontario. Yeah, not until they tacos. I'll send this to them though, so they know what's up.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah, I'd be like, hey, and BTW. Just by the way, you know?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Give me my shit now.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Run me my check, and we'll put your name in here.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Lit.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Um, anyways, the topic for today is leadership.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Um, we've had a couple of conversations about leadership. Um, I feel weird to say that I've been like in a leadership role.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Wear your crown, Queen.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

It's it's weird to say that's yours. Um, but I I've been a leader for since I've known you. So it's been a couple of years in a leadership role, and I'm trying to remember all the things that got us here to this conversation. Because we had a a couple of conversations talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I think we brought it up last time. We were looking at the rates of new BCBAs that are coming in, failure rates, failure rates of people retaking the test. I have to find, I cannot remember the gentleman's name off the top, but our homie on LinkedIn, we've had a couple conversations on his threads, so that was like one of those big things coming out because of a lot a lot of the data. But then the downstream effects of having that bottleneck in terms of new leaders, what does that mean for the industry? How does it affect uh turnover and all this kind of stuff? And then we come to okay, so these are all the structural problems. Now that I know that is what the case is, what happens as a BCBA or any kind of analyst? I know we got different licenses now, so shout out to all everybody. But what what happens once you're in that role now, and you have to oversee a team or support people with their development and their growth, and we're we're already like fighting on our back foot. So the question is how do we fail less as an industry? How do we empower people to not leave? And I think maybe I'm mistaken, but I think that's kind of where we were before that.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, that makes sense. Um, yeah, I the passing rates I think really what triggered it because we were talking about new BCBAs, and it has become a conversation to be like, you shouldn't be a clinical director unless you've been in the field for five years or you've been in a leadership role for five years and things like that. But at the rate that we need clinical directors and BCBAs, we don't have five years, you know, like based on the data, there isn't five years to like grow and shape and mold someone. Um, and then you know, kind of leads us back to that private equity and like small business. Like, you also can't afford someone with five years experience to be a clinical director when you have a small business. A lot of times it's you, especially if you're a BCBA, being the clinical director. And I've seen a lot of people who are like, I passed my test, I want to open my own company. Um funny. Like I've just seen that being being a thing, right? And to each their own, however, you guys decide to do it and what works best for you, as long as it's not harming a client. I don't really care how you do it.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

That part.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Um, you know, I as long as it's not harmful, but I I think that it leads to harmful leadership, which is also kind of where we're on how we got here on this topic, was that there are different types of employees, right? Like there is uh like engaged, they're activators, like they're out there advocating for the business, like they're pouring their heart and soul, they're probably really high performers, they believe in the mission, the values, like the we love those people, love them, they're great, but to get and maintain those people takes a good leader. Like, you have to be a strong leader, you have to be a good leader. Um, and then you get those people that are not activators, right? They're the quiet quitters and they're just doing the basics of their job, and we have to remember that not everyone wants to grow and lead. That's a big deal because you have to identify those people early in your organization. Um, and then there's those people that are just loud about how they are so miserable and they just like don't want to be here. Um and those are the people that we need a study. I need like a full case study on people who hate working places but fight so hard to stay working there.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, that that is, and mind you, we're talking about the people who aren't stuck at a job, let's say. That they're there it's not an economic situation or their hands aren't tied behind their back, so they're constantly exposing themselves and giving themselves an ulcer. We're talking about people who have the option, there are plenty of other places to go, they're getting offers because they talk about it all the time, they talk about all the time a pay cut that they may be taking to be at one place versus another place, but then they don't believe. Yeah, yeah, I don't understand that. Could never be me. I I want to learn. I'm with you. I want to study these people because I would love to learn what is going on here.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, and I I understand that there has to be like there's two sides, right? So there has to be whatever they're experiencing. And speaking from my own experience, I did stay at a place longer than I should have. And I recognized that. And I recognized it when I started to become the negative energy. Like I interesting, I was able to self-reflect on that, which I think that's a big skill you have to have. So some of these people may not have that skill set yet, right? Um, but it was like, hey, I'm I'm starting to hate it.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

And I don't want to be anywhere that I hate, especially when you pour so much love and effort into something. Um it's oh it's almost your baby too. Like it's technically not, right? Like it's the the owner's company, but you fall in love with the people and the values and the mission, and you saw it too, and you believe in it. Um, and so you want to stay to try to like get it back on track, but there's there's the people who are actively sabotaging, like sabotaging the mission, sabotaging the value. They're actively not sharing information um that is causing harm to other people or other things like that. And those are the people that we genuinely need to figure out like why are they doing that? And especially as in this field, as BCBAs, like there is so many jobs at every single level that if you're not restrained by a financial hardship, there's no reason for you to stay somewhere you're miserable. And I know people mention I fall in love with my kids and my clients and my caseload, and yes, there's an emotional component which I understand that because we if you work in this field, it's not for funsies, like this is something you really have to have the heart for it. Um but are you being effective if you hate your job? I I don't think you are.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I think you know it's it's there's a level of professionalism that I think people could have. I've worked at places, let's say I worked as a janitorial staff at a gym when I was when I was younger, cleaning the blood off of the floor, which is weird because it's like why why are you lifting? Like, why are you lifting at all? Let alone why are you lifting like that? Bathrooms were were lit. So the day-to-day wasn't necessarily the the best, but I understood what the outcome was. So it's like my job is to deal with these situations and to change them. Like that that was that was why why I was there. So I I I do feel like there are people, if they just did their job, they could be miserable, they could be upset, you could you could not get along with your supervisor. I'm not sure if I've alluded to it enough times on this podcast, but I'm very hard-headed, so I create all kinds of problems for myself, no matter where where I go, and then try to play the victim. Like, why are they treating me? So I get it, I see where those people are coming from. But I also learned that 95% of it is me, so then I can navigate it in a in a different way, let's say, if I just do my job. If I did reach a point though, let's say where I'm I'm not gonna be effective here, or what you're talking about, we're gonna start spreading negativity publicly. We're we're all at will. And even though I think like some employers take it personal when you do leave, like you quit and then they find out where you live, or there's some people who got fired from their ABA agency because the owner found out that they had opened their own company. But the way that they found out that they opened their own company is they're looking, there's some list that cities put out, I don't know how often, who's incorporating. So this person was monitoring companies incorporating in their city, found one of their BCBAs on the list, fired them from the job, and then started harassing them after the after the fact. So, like this is this is what this is the other side. This is the other side, I think, of what people are dealing with. Yeah, yeah. So it's like I I I I completely feel for feel for people who who are in a miserable place and they can't quite get out, or it's just wild, like you're almost on your back foot, you're not you're not understanding how to how to get through that. But the the issue that I felt with myself was if I am somewhere always talking shit, always giving pushback to my leaders when they're just trying to hit numbers, and they're not dehumanizing numbers. It's just this is literally the the essence of your job. Yeah, these are the things that you have to do. So, questioning everything, undermining decision making, not sharing information, making other people's jobs harder. I think at that point it is okay for you to just leave. Like, no one's gonna judge you for leaving a place that you're no longer being effective at.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah. Um, and you're right, on the the back side of that. Like, there is two sides to that. There is the other component of there are crappy leaders, and that also is one of the topics is like poor leadership impacts the engagement of an employee, right? Absolutely, like research shows it, we know it exists, like it's a thing, but it it it's very true that like poor impact and it does it it completely can take an employee from like I love this job to I hate this job, and leaders BCBAs specifically forget that they're leaders. And as much as you don't want to be a leader, if you don't want to be a leader, I highly suggest not being a BCBA. Um unless you're gonna work like I'm just a BCBA and I'm directly working with this client, like direct service model, but you are still a leader to the family. Like I think people forget that too.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Wow, very fair.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You're still leading the family, you still have to have difficult conversations, you still need to have compassion and empathy, you still need to hear them out. You're training the family how to support and service this child as well, you know? So you're still having to lead and train and teach. And as a BCBA, I feel like it's a component that's just built into the job. And people forget that, or they don't want to do it. Some people don't want to be leaders, right? I've always heard it's like a glorified babysitter, like like people have made those kinds of comments, and if that's how you feel, you probably like if you genuinely feel that way, you should probably not be a leader. Um, because I don't see it as babysitting, I see it very much as like how am I going to make an impact that's larger than myself? I'm not only impacting like the people that I directly support, but now I'm training other people to go and train other people to go and train other people. Interesting. That impact trickles down. And so we were kind of talking about like at my like when I first became a leader and how I reflect on that a lot. Like, there's a lot of times where I think about like, did my impact hurt people? Like, I didn't my intention wasn't to be that, but my impact was that. And and then how did that impact that person when they went to the next job and the next people they oversaw? And then how did it impact those people and how did it trickle down? And everyone is at a different place in their leadership learning journey. I'm still very much learning, like I have a ton to learn, but there is a life cycle for someone who is being a leader, and a lot of times we expect people to start at the top of the life cycle, right? Because you're like, now you're a clinical director, so you should just be the best leader. It doesn't work that way. Like you have to learn as you're in that role, you learn to be a leader through all of your stages, right? As a BT, you still learn to be a leader because you're working with a family and having conversations as a mid-tier or a BCABA or an RBT, like you're also still a leader. You can show leadership without having a title, right? Then you get to these other higher levels as a BCBA and a clinical director, and you are a leader. You're uh even if you're not supervising someone, you are still leading, like you are still modeling, and you're in a different place in your journey, and you're allowed to have certain reactions and learning mistakes and things because you're a baby in that journey, but that cannot last forever. And that little piece of your life journey as a leader, and that moment where you let your emotions speak for that, your for you, or you let your reactions um those impact those employees, and then those employees become disengaged, which now has been detrimental to a business. And there's a lot of talk about, like you said, like the five years things, like at the point that we need clinical directors and BCBAs, nobody has time for five years now. So we're having to teach leaders a lot faster and a lot quicker with a lot less life experience, and that's harmful. It's becoming harmful to these people because people are not teaching leadership skills, or people are passing their exam and they're like, I'm gonna go and open my own business, which you absolutely can, but it's also your responsibility to now educate yourself, get a mentor, do all the things to make you a better leader so that you can oversee someone. And people who are staying somewhere because they hate it. I think that there's two sides to that of one, is it that I want it to get better because I put so much blood, sweat, and tears into it, and I'm trying to hold out, or the other side, which I don't know why someone would want to stay somewhere where they're miserable. I've heard the excuse about your clients, and and you know, but at the end of the day, like there's hundreds and thousands of families and clients, and if you made an impact here and it was a positive one, then you should be confident in your skill set that they can maintain those things even when you're not there. Because that's the whole point of our job. Yeah, so you have to be okay with letting them go. What would you do if they were graduating? The same thing, you have to just let them go, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So that's another thing where like I I see what you're saying, but it's not really it. But as as leaders and BCBAs, when we sit in a room and we're negative and we complain the whole time and we don't want to be there, we're miserable, or like you said, you're I'm in I'm literally undermining my leadership. No matter how much they're pouring into me, whether they're good or bad, why am I not just leaving? Why would I stay? And there's literally five job offers to every BCBA.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Like Yeah, they cannot calm down on LinkedIn. And I'm just like, look, first off, don't message me, but second off, don't message me and tell me that you have a moonlighting policy. Like, I'm from California. We don't do not compete, we work two to three jobs at the same time. But anyway, to your point, to your point.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, you're true. That's true, though. California. We'd be out here just like no, everybody's gonna be working. We gotta afford gas, okay?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

That part. We got sun all year, so we don't go, we don't disappear for three months when there's weather.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, I gotta be out there sweating.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

I tan every day.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Not a tan every day, Matthew.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Every day. My kids clown me because they're like, you can't get tanned, which is inappropriate and unnecessary of them. But I can.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

You're like, I swear I can. And you guys know what Matthews looks like, you would understand the joke.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

They'll see it. We gotta start posting this. They'll see it.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

When we'll post pictures, they're gonna be like, oh. Mm-hmm. That's how they're gonna respond to it.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

So it's like, I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

I get the joke. Uh yeah. I don't I don't know why there is loud quitters. I know why there's quiet quitters. I think that can be handled when you have the right leadership in place. But a loud, disengaged employee, I wish I knew. I wish I knew what they got from that.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah, no, I I man, again, it's like understanding whatever context they're in. So when when I was a BT, there wasn't a lot that I could do, let's say. So my hands are tied behind my back. If if I'm if I'm working, you know, stocking in a store, my hands are tied behind our back, my my back. I think what we're talking about here is people who are leaders in leadership positions, who are staying in some place. So you're responsible for overseeing a set of people and you're not giving them the tools that they need to succeed, they're complaining about things, and then you're feeding into that just as well. I think it's weird because in and I I hate to word it like this because I roll my eyes so hard when our colleagues and our peers do it, but we are a behavioral science, it's true. So it's like, why wouldn't we look at what our field have to say? And I think it goes beyond thinking in terms of prompting and reinforcement, respectfully, because you could say that you can say to a person, if if you positively reinforce them, then their behavior will increase. But to me, that's similar to saying if you can figure out how to counteract the effects of gravity, then you can fly. This is true. Oh my god, you could if you did that, but how the fuck do I get a rocket onto the moon is kind of the issue. So saying simply, well, if you figure out what positively reinforces a whole other person, a whole other human being, then you could manage their behavior. I think what if I can't? Like, what does our field have to say about how to like I'm gonna do my best to identify the the reinforcer, but I can't get into your head is basically what our field is saying. So instead of trying to ask you questions or get a feel for you or do surveys and no shit on surveys because we're all just trying to collect as much information as we can. How do I arrange the environment in a way that's going to facilitate your job so that it can also facilitate mine? So most of the time, the behavior analysts-I mean, again, in California, I don't know how they're doing it in other places, but we're overseeing people who are writing reports. So reports have a due date because we have authorizations that need to be renewed or reauthorizations or questions from insurance, etc. But you you have you have a report that you have to write. Yeah, you have data that you have to constantly be updating for those reports. You can't just wait until the last month to start doing these things. So then I don't I don't think it's a systems problem because everyone has a system, everyone puts the calendar dates, they tell their BT or they I'm sorry, they tell their supervisors or other behavior analysts when reports are due. Uh they're giving them a breakdown for how to do this in the next two to three months, and it's still not happening. To me, I think there's a researcher, Bohm, William Bohm, the molar behavior guy. I pull a lot from him because he's looking at it, or part of how he's looking at it, is a switching problem. So, like when a person has to go from one task to another task, that's actually a cost. So, what we end up having is I'm not even finishing the first task I'm on, and then I'm freezing before moving on to do to do the next one. I think that kind of feeds into how people won't go from one job to the next, is that switch has a cost. But if you're not contributing to facilitating completing these tasks or getting things done, it it and that's your responsibility. And mind you, I don't believe in this uh lead from the bottom nonsense that people be doing sometimes. I I I think that's preposterous, uh, especially in a place where you get compensated for your work. What do you mean when I was a BT, I would hear things like that. What do you mean you want me to act like a supervisor? Like pay me like a supervisor. Yeah, just because you can't figure out how to hire somebody or you can't figure out how to how to not make them quit, in this case, not dealing with with the same problem, um, doesn't mean that it should fall on me. Now I think socially, like as a member of society, it does follow me. But these are the the distinctions that we have to make as an organization or as a business or as a leader, it is your responsibility to solve these problems, not just dump it onto the other person. And I feel ultimately that's the problem with how bad leaders or bad leadership the way we're describing is dealing with it. Where you almost want to be one of the I'm like you guys, I'm a cool mom, I'm not a regular, and it and it's like no no, like Amy Polar. You know, you can be who you are, you can be 30, you could, you could be the 40-year-old, you could, you could, yeah, you can do the things, you can take the position of authority without needing to like identify with with people in terms of a quote-unquote struggle, because again, it's not that. Like, we're just playing a game, we're playing a word game, we're acting like we're suffering, we're acting like there's some kind of coalition that we're putting together to solve a problem. When really we're all still going to Starbucks, we're all still going to Target, and then turning around and making it hard for our team, the people that we should be giving leadership to, we're making it hard for them to close that gap. Because if we're not present, then they, you know, it's annoying.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Like they they're not there to give us their emp when we're working with people, they're not there to give us empathy. Us as leaders have to take responsibility and do the job, accept the failures, because we want to accept all the accolades. We want to act like we did it all on our own. So then we have to also accept like when we're actually failing, when we're not identifying the people who need support, or it was through our own neglect that they ended up drifting away from us, that they became uncommitted, let's say. And what was the word? What was the third one for the active you said active disengagement?

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, active disengagement.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

We have to take responsibility for when we're triggering that as leaders. Then it doesn't take away from the fact that these people have like no, a person has to quit. I think you should quit. I hate to word it like that, but everybody should quit whatever place before they turn around and bring negative, yeah, bring negativity to the place that you're in.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah. I think when you you have the privileges to be able to quit, you should quit. Absolutely. And that that's those are the people that we're speaking to. Like if you have that ability to do so, do it, right? I'm not talking about the people who can't. So I feel like we have to keep reiterating that because then people are gonna go down that space. Yeah, exactly. I'm not arguing. Yeah, I'm not arguing about a BT who's like making ends meet and they're a single parent and they're you know, like, and they can't just quit their job, right? Like, I understand that. I'm talking about people who are very much privileged and can be like, yeah, I could just quit tomorrow and start somewhere else, and it's not gonna hurt me, right? And you know who you are, like that exists. I know that exists, right? Like that when you get to a certain point, you have the right skill set, you have the right network, you can absolutely quit today and start somewhere else tomorrow. Like, that is a thing. BCBAs are so needed that any BCBA, unethical, don't do this, right? Like, it's unethical to do that, but could quit today and start somewhere else tomorrow. You can do that. Um, I and I I really when you're talking about, you know, we have to take responsibility, like we have to take accountability when someone becomes actively disengaged. What part did we play in that? At what point did we identify something? I think I did a a training on this where it was like, hey, identifying under stress, like where someone is under stress and when do you step in to help them? If they're like a I forget the rating scale I created, but it was like if it was like one to three, hey, like they're good. They're they're doing good, don't micromanage, don't gotta jump in, you don't gotta overwhelm them, right? They're getting to like a think of four to five, like, hey, I should be asking, like, hey, is there something I can do? What's the barriers? What's happening? I should just actively start supporting when they're in their phase, right? Like, if we were talking about behavior, now they're escalated and they're in this major phase, and it's like, can you train or can you learn in an escalation? No, right? Like, if they're already actively disengaged, are they going to learn from you right now? No, because you've already lost them, and so you have to do all the things you can do to regulate them and bring them back so that you can show them either that you've grown as a leader, you can take accountability or help them navigate through their emotions and their reaction, or that person has to be the big enough person to say that I need to leave. Um those are very like high-level skills, right? Like these are people like you're professionals. You guys are at the minimum master's levels. So, as a master's level person, if you're not self-reflecting um on how you're impacting others, that's a problem. Like, you should not be actively seeking leadership or be overseeing maybe large groups of people if you cannot self-reflect and say, at what point did I not take accountability for when this person became actively disengaged? And if you look back, you should be able to identify it. Like, as a leader, I very much can identify when someone is leaning that way. We've had conversations about it where I've been like, hey, keep an eye on this person. I can see they're on edge, like things are changing, you know. Um, there's been people where we've talked about like, hey, like if something else happens, she's she's about to go. Like she is heading to a five and a six now. Like we we gotta figure out what the plan is. And I've been able to identify like what they're just looking for. Some people just need validation. And it's like, okay, like I can see where as a leader, maybe my maybe their direct leader gave them validation, but they were looking from validation from like the next leader. Um, which is weird to me because like how would I know? But also, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

How do we you know?

SPEAKER_01 32:23

I I've learned that as a business owner is that people are seeking validation from the top, like the very top, and it's I'm not in the day today sometimes, so I would not know the thing that you did for this one specific family when there's 350 families, you know. Like I I wouldn't know, and not to discredit the hard work that they did, it's just that I I genuinely don't have that information, and so I'm I'm identifying another way that I can grow is like in my one-to-ones, like, hey, tell me a win for these people that I I have no interaction with except for once a month, you know. But like give me a win so that I can identify that win and literally send them a message. I can say thank you, I can send them a gift card, like a small chat, like when I see them mentioning it, like, hey, I heard you did really well. But like that's how you keep employees actively engaged because they want to know that the work is impactful. And not only are they getting that from their families that they're interacting with, but also from the top, from someone to say, Hey, I see you, I saw it, I heard about it, thank you for doing that. Um even when it's bad, like even when they've made mistakes, I've been like, Hey, I know that was difficult to handle, like, thank you for working through that. Yeah, even though it wasn't the outcome we wanted, the fact that you tried to navigate it or you looked for support navigating it means a lot. But if you can't, as a leader, identify those groups of people, you're gonna struggle, and you're actually actively causing more disengaged employees because you are not self-aware and can't recognize the impact you have on these people, and baby leaders are are learning that and they're having emotional reactions to those people. Like those people are being mean, they're bullying me, they don't know any better, they don't know what they're talking about. Like, and and there are some people that maybe fall in those categories. There's some where you're like you, I really don't know what else to do with you because you really just are actively like not wanting to learn, actively not wanting to grow, actively not wanting to take this next step, and that's okay. But you have to that's when it's like higher slow, right? Like that's why it takes so long for me to identify a person I want to bring into an organization because I want to know that they can actively engage their the people they oversee or that they're actively engaged employees, but also getting to those people that I'm like, hey, fire fast, they need to go because they are going to bring other people down with them and they have made the decision for themselves, and sometimes you have to do those things, but the the leader is really the determining point, and we know that like data shows it, it it shows it, but as a BCBA, I think a lot of people like to claim that they're not a leader or they don't want to be, and then they will blame it on the next person, it was the organization, it was my clinical director, it was someone else. At what point did you say I need support or I don't want this? And then that's gonna be silly because, like you said, they read a contract and they sign it. So if you didn't want to do what was on the contract, why did you sign it? But two, the fact that they are not able to advocate for themselves is why we're seeing a um this like turning point of professionals that have come into the field but don't know how to lead. And now our field is shifting to these leadership conversations. Um, and I think we're getting like those, there's like clinical people who are like, I'm very focused on the clinical, and I don't give a darn about anyone else but the clinical. And then you have people who are like, I'm very focused on the leadership. I'm one of those people. I'm over here in the leadership. I could teach anyone ABA and I could do the ABA thing. And do I remember all the terms? I'm not gonna lie, I don't remember all the terms, but I can walk you through them, I can teach you, I can make kids have progress, like that. But that's something a lot of us can do. We all can do that. But the leadership component is just significantly lacking. And I don't know if the board needs to come up with something, I don't know if this is like maybe all of us need to be in some sort of therapy for self-awareness. I don't know what we need to require, but there is a component lacking leadership, and we're losing people. And when we talk about turnover, are we also talking about the impact these BCBAs have on turnover? Are we tracking turnover per BCBA?

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Because no, we're tracking it by an organization, but at the end of the day, let's go back to private equity. If they're so huge, does the owner of a private equity company have the time to be like, how many BCBAs have RBTs turning over under them? And then they have five locations across the United States. They don't have time for that. I'm I'm telling you right now, we I don't have time for that. My BCBAs do track it. I have it like, hey, how many BTs have had a turnover under this mid-tier supervisor? And how many mid-tier supervisors have a turnover under this BCBA? And at the end of the day, like leadership with us is at 98% retention, and RBTs is 70 almost 80% retention, or BTs, but it's like it does it need to improve? Absolutely. Would I love it to be at 98% too? Surely, right? And there's some things that are out of our control, they're kids, they're going to college or moving, but there are a lot we can control, and that's why I pour so much into like mid-tiers and BCBAs because they are the deciding factor. It's not me. It it there is a part that I carry, there's a huge part I carry, but there is a point where they're going to ask for help, and that mid-tier is going to respond in a way that made them upset and they're going to quit, and it had nothing to do with me. But if I didn't model how I appropriately wanted them to respond when they asked me for help, then it is my fault. It is my fault. And so, like, as a BCBA, are we taking accountability for that? And I don't know that we are. And then we're sitting in LinkedIn talking about how no nobody should be a clinical director unless they have five years' experience. But if a BCBA that has 25 years and a BCBA that has one year come in a room and I have a mid-tier and a BT ask them for help and I see how they respond, and the 25-year responds like a jerk, I'm not hiring them. I'm gonna take the the one year and the one year I'd rather have as a clinical director than the 25 year. It's just not it, it it doesn't make sense. Um, yeah. So if I had those two people, like I'm gonna pick the person who's going to respond better as a leader. Maybe their clinical skills aren't as strong, but that's where I need to step up and come in and say, I'm gonna teach you stronger clinical skills. But I I've met BCBAs that have 10, 15, 25 years under their belt, and yes, they taught me a lot clinically, but did they teach me how to be a leader? No. Like, did they teach me how to be a better leader? No. They taught me a type of leadership of who I don't want to be. Um, but I've also met other BCBAs that I've always shout out, Keisha, but I've met other BCBAs who like their leadership has literally changed the way I lead my team and has changed the way that I interact with people and taught me to take accountability. Like there are times where it's hard to swallow, like it's hard to to digest that that feedback, or it's hard to like this has to do with me. And there was a lot of times where I would be like, I did all these pieces, and then she'd be like, Okay, but like there's still something missing because it didn't get done, or it wasn't done correctly, or they're still saying they don't know, and that's a hard pill to swallow. And I think a lot of B Space don't want to swallow it.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah, we're we're so um I think part of the mistake or not mistake, it's just I don't want to try to categorize everybody, but like one of the things that I've seen is because of our style of intervention, because of how we apply Skinner's view with the description, with the prediction, and with the control, when you put a behavior on extinction, let's say, the effect is immediate. So we're dealing with systems that have a kind of immediate feedback, even though it isn't always necessarily immediate. But once we start talking about organizations or groups of people or even a single person's uh development or response, let's say if we treat all their responses like one whole population, again, this is this is all like bo boam, this is all boom nonsense. Um if we when we look at it in that uh in that way, um we can start to see how the relationships between numbers, let's say, is not is not so straightforward. So uh a specific example of what I'm trying to get to, sorry for rambling about this. But if we had a super we have two supervisors, they both have five cases, but the locations of those cases make a difference. You can even have two supervisors with five cases where the lo the distance between each house is 20 miles, let's say, but their drive times are not going to be the same. So when we reduce the situation to just those numbers and we're saying, well, this person has five cases and they're driving 20 miles between each case and they're doing it, now you're not doing it, I think our analysis is incorrect because there are other structural problems that we we may not see. The the the the gist of it being this when you're dealing with a system that has delays, when you finally do get a response from it, you're not sure if it was the antecedent that triggered it or if this was something that was unfolding over time or some kind of thread that was developing, and suddenly with a trigger, it now it now drops in. But you can't say was the trigger itself. So I I feel like a lot of times when we're trying to analyze organizations, the tools that we have to do it, it's not that they fall short, but we fall short in the types of analysis that we do. As leaders, we need to recognize when the numbers don't tell the full story. So if I'm overseeing a supervisor who's who's covering, let's say, 60 miles, and then I'm gonna get feedback to give them feedback about the fact that they're not going in person, I'm gonna advocate for them. If it turns into a conversation where it's like, well, either you tell them or it falls on you, I would let it fall on me. Because at that point, then I know that the person that I'm talking to in my leadership is a complete fool, and they're completely blinded. There, there is no touch to reality, and they'll say things like, ah, well, I'm using the data, and and you're not. So it kind of comes back to like how do I arrange the environment, let's say, in a way that's going to be conducive to establishing these behaviors. This comes down to my decisions. This comes down to where where I assign you to go. How does traffic on these areas feed into the thing? Now, if someone's late, that's that's one thing, but if they're getting caught in the network effects of driving or crossing two freeways, like where we live, anyone can take three freeways to get to someplace that's 20 miles, automatically 45 minutes to an hour and a half of a of a trip. But some people live in a world where even if you tell them that, they'll say something like, That's not an excuse. Or I heard once where they were giving feedback to a supervisor about calling a parent back. Um, the supervisor called back within twenty four hours. So the parent called in the day, the supervisor called that night, but the feedback that they got was uh You should have called them sooner. So their response was, Hey, I I I followed policy. I was in session, so I called them as soon as I got out. I called them within 24 hours. And their behavior analyst, their response to that supervisor was, Well, it's still your fault. That's what they got told. I was incensed. And I I vouched for the person because I was like, yo, everything they did was in policy. He's like, Yeah, but parent was still upset. Okay, so now this is a different conversation. I'm sorry, I know that there are emergency situations, but as human beings, you don't have a claim to this person's time. If they respond within policy, well, then they they did okay. So, anyway, all this to say, I feel like sometimes when we're using our data to try to inform our decision making, because we're so used to this loop of description and prediction and control, we lose sight of the fact that sometimes we're not dealing with a system that that works like that. So then we end up wanting to have a consequence, you know. And I think this is kind of tying into what you were saying when we have leaders who will have like a an emotional reaction towards someone. It's okay to feel sad. I think it's great to feel like the the the bite of depression when you failed. I think these are super healthy and important things because it really does change you. You touch the fire and you pull your you pull your hand away. I so I I I think these things are great, but I think there's a big part where we're just kind of leaving people hanging, we're not fully understanding the complexity of the situation, so we lean onto our data like a crutch, and then we say that we're being data driven, but we're not. We're not we're not focusing on the quote unquote data-driven part when we're showing that all our decisions are causing people to leave at a higher rate than than the average. In that case, it turns into they're just not mature, they don't want to work for me. We start constructing all these stories which ultimately hide the fact that we failed, and that's okay. I mean, it's not okay, you gotta fix it, but you did fail. But it is a learning opportunity, uh 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, but you have to be aware of that learning opportunity, and a lot of people aren't. And that's I think that's kind of what we're we're focusing on is like you're absolutely correct. Like, yes, take the data. There is data you need. But like you said, if I go and I'm saying how many BTs have turnedover under this supervisor, and how many supervisors have turnedover under this this BCBA, and I take all of that data, well, then I also take that data and I have to ask, like, okay, well, how many of these cases turnover was an insurance issue? How many of these cases like was the turnover um family, like what was the the data saying? Because there's all multiple data, right? Like if a BT there's like high resignation for these BTs, but the BTs all live next to a college. Am I taking into account that they all started college, right? Like because we're we're taking in entry-level people. So if I'm not looking at all this, I want to call them setting events, but if I'm not looking at all the things, right? And and all the factors, then I am also not being self-aware. And you're right, someone could have five cases and someone else got five cases. But if the five cases are completely out of their region and they're far away, and we're not allowing them to have some sort of um grace for telehealth, or we're not having conversations about like, should they be in a center that might pull them closer? You know, if I'm not having those conversations and then I'm just like you said, like, well, figure it out, that's your problem. That that's also not helpful or beneficial. Like, there's a lot of things you have to take into account. So, yes, take your data, your data may be your foundation, but then all these other layers come into play. And the same way that we want to change ABA to have those layers when we're working with our clients, you as a leader need to do the same thing with your employees, with your people. And I don't know that we've gotten there because we're still learning to do with our clients, right? Like, there are certain times where I can see where they're having these conversations, and like we don't need to teach eye contact because that like we that's not typical. Like, you know, there's these other layers that have come into play for from what ABA was 25 years ago, 10 years ago, and that that makes sense. And why are we not applying that skill? And when we talk about like, are you applying it the other way? Like you said, like, okay, just find a motivator, but also, right, we also admit that I don't know what's happening in your head, and we will refer our clients out to other services because we can't make a decision until we know that there's no like medical and there's all these other things. Why are we not taking that same approach with our employees? As a leader, why am I not saying, like, hey, what are the other things that are happening in your life? And I can't always accommodate for the other things, right? That's true, but I can teach them how to cope with it, teach them how to like navigate it. I can teach them other skills to be successful, even though these other layers are happening, because we all have the other layers happening. You don't know what I'm thinking in my brain, you don't know what I'm going through, you don't know my emotions, you don't know my story. That is something that, like, one, as a leader, you should be learning from your team as much as you possibly can because you do want them to be comfortable with being vulnerable. And there is a vulnerability you have to have with your team to build the relationship. Doesn't mean you try to relate in their their misery or like, you know, that's a I'm a youngo. Yeah, like that's a that's a baby leadership quality, I would say, is like when you're learning to be a leader, you're trying to relate with your teams, you're like, yeah, this sucks. Instead of being like, hey, I know this is a new thing, it's a change. Change is hard. Let's figure it out together, right? Those are like two different like leaders. You will have the leaders, and there was a point where I was that leader. I was like, Yeah, this is this sucks, and I know it sucks, and we're just gonna figure it out together because I was learning how to relate to my team, and then there was the person I am now where I'm like, hey, change is inevitable, it has to happen as we grow and we develop. What is the problem with the change? How do I help you navigate the change? And and trying to get the understanding, like, what is the why? Why are we making the change? This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. I didn't just make the change for funsies that it had to occur because of X, Y, and Z. That's where you could pull your data. But when you're talking to a human being and you're working through navigating a situation with a person, pulling data might be how you find the problem. Like you initially look at the problem, but you have to look at all the other things. And that is a leadership quality. And when you don't look at those things, like the people you're describing, that is how you get actively disengaged employees because you don't care about me, you're treating me like a number, you didn't think about X, Y, and Z. I shared this vulnerable information for it with you, and you didn't even take it into account. Like that is the poor leadership that is costing us the ability to consistently service our clients. And that's happening to BCBAs, like we've talked about, like, probably will be its own topic, but talking about like leaders who have, you know, they're not good leaders and they're managing a whole organization. Um, but BCBAs are doing it to each other and doing it to other employees, and there's a lack of accountability there. And that I think is where we really have to be like, how are we gonna change that? Because as soon as you can change a leader to be a better leader, you're going to see improvement and retention in the field. As soon as the BCBAs are strong enough at leading, you're gonna see a huge shift and people staying in the field, wanting to be in this field, because there are horror stories, like BCBAs who were about to be BCBA and were like, I don't want to do this anymore because I had a really bad leader, and they leave, and that person could have come up with some amazing thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Right? Like, and we lost them. And it's the same as like when you think about like doctors and things like that, like someone who really want to be a doctor and they're so brilliant, then they had a really bad experience at residency and they just give it all up. And it's like that person could have solved all the cures for cancer, and we just let them we destroyed that motivation in them. And that is always my fear as a leader. Like, I never want to be the reason someone left the field, didn't want to stay here, didn't want to do like that. Is never what I want to be, and I'm afraid that I may have been that. Like, that's the stuff that I lose sleep of. Like, did I do that to someone when I was first learning to be a leader? And the conversations about, like, you know, somebody said five years of clinical director and like all those things, like, who is the better leader? Who can handle difficult conversations? Who's not afraid to have those conversations, learn from them, change their their themselves, like develop themselves? That is who you need. I don't think like just like you said, like, I don't think the five years really means anything if you can't have the development in that timeline. If I'm I've met plenty of BCBAs that are like love to be annoyed with young BCBAs. I don't know what like why that's a thing. They're like, Yeah, I've been in the field since before this existed, and like they have this like side type of I don't know, ego. And I'm always sitting there like, okay, but no one wants to work with you. You're rude, you're obnoxious, you don't build relationships, like you're you're a negative Nancy, like you're causing friction. People don't want to work with you because of that, and you are not going to cause someone who would be so great in this field to leave just because I'm desperate for a BCBA or because you have so many years of experience. I I'm not going to do that to the BCBAs out here who be acting like that.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Yeah, I know. No, it's so it's so immoral. You know, I think you know I I love how you play like put it as a development, put a problem of development because I've never thought of training as a knowledge transfer thing. There's no lecture or conversation that we can have, no list of definitions that we can give that that'll facilitate. At the end of the day, it's a performance issue, and we know about performance, and the athletes have known this, the weightlifters have known this, and then we, in with our version of psychology, have known this that we're gonna look at the incremental changes in your performance. So when I hear things like people say things like, We talked about this already, they think they're spitting bars, they think they're holding people accountable, they're not recognizing that yo, if you talked about this once, twice, three times, multiple times, it means you didn't create the environment to have them do the thing. It's hard to look at ourselves. It's easy for us to give feedback about who's turning in reports late. Easy to say you need to go in person more, easy to say, hey, your your oh, your your ratio of telehealth to in-person for your supervision is not correct. But no one wants to look at themselves and and say the thing, I actually haven't taught this person how to perform. Because why are we expecting them to be at an 80%, let's say, when we never even show that they were at 30%? If we look at their performance from the beginning, they've only ever performed at 15%. When we give them a feedback, if it improves to 25%, we take it as I told you this, and now you're disrespecting me. Yeah, but like I hate to I hate when we talk about but our science, but you know what? Like, let me do that. What would our science say about that 10% increase? That increase in in the frequency, this change in performance that you were able to affect after after a week. That's actually a good thing. Now I recognize within any organization or business or whatever, there's limitations. What I'm concerned with is if there were real limitations, people should be fired, but that's not what's happening. So it's almost as if people are mad that they're not being quote unquote listened to, but they're not looking at it as in a way as how do I make listening to me the easiest thing for you to accomplish? They make it even harder, then you don't even want to be in the same room with this person to be able to advocate yourself. So it's all these problems that are constantly being fed into that we're a humongous part of. And if we were to break it down and analyze our own behavior and look at where we can improve, honestly speaking, looking at Bohm or whoever else, you can find me on LinkedIn if you need some feedback for that. But it's like there are ways to get to get this done, but it really does have to start with yourself. Yeah, absolutely. What environment? I mean, I had a BCBA, my boy, Mario Becetta, the most brilliant man, he said something that changed my life from when he said it. He said, if you want to change the environment, you change yourself. And I thought, gosh, thank you for that. Because I've carried that with me, and but I do feel like we're conveniently lacking and analyzing ourselves in that way because we always want to turn around and say how the system is is failing. Every time.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Every time. Every time it's private equity's problem, you know, it's it's private equity, it's this leader, it's always somebody else's fault. And all we're saying is it's probably yours.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

It's yours. You are the source of your own pain. Take responsibility, grow up.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Grow up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

This applies to everyone except for myself. I will never self-reflect.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yeah, you stay exactly how you are.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

I'm fine. You don't know what I've been through.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Yeah, we don't you we don't know your story. You know? You don't know, you don't know Matthew's story, so you can't judge him. Um, yeah, I think the whole the this whole one hour episode is that you it's your fault.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

It's my fault. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

It's your own fault.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

It is, it is, isn't it? I'm gonna send an email to Lloyd.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

You're like, boss, it's my fault.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

You were right. It was me.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

It was me. I'm the problem. I just I I really what I want everyone to take away is just like self-reflection, like really looking at yourself because there and that goes for us, like truly. Like, there's a lot of times that we've had situations or we've gotten the feedback, and then I have to reflect and be like, okay, what have I could done better? And you're right, like if I have to keep having a conversation, it's not getting across, or something's not working, and there's a lot of times where you want to get frustrated, but you have to, as a leader, be like, what was not clear? What barrier is in the way? What am I doing wrong? And everyone wants the title, but no one wants the responsibility, they want the money, but they don't want to do the work for it. But you do have to do internal work when you become a leader. Like, there's stuff you're doing off the clock, not for the job, but for yourself. Like, you read the book, listen to the audio, like watch the podcast, like whatever it is, like do those things because that's what's gonna make you a better leader. Your impact will be even bigger. But you have to self-reflect and you have to take accountability. And that was something that I had to learn in this journey. I'm still learning, like, there are days where I probably mess up and respond, and then I'm like, oh, like, let me take accountability there because I should have handled that better. Um, and and these people that you're looking up to that you're saying, like, hey, this is my mentor, I'm looking up to this person, be aware if they're self-reflecting. Because if they're not self-reflecting, if they're not coming back and saying when they fumbled the the bag and they fumbled the ball and they messed up the play, if they're not doing those things, then they are not the right mentor for you. And they're putting on a facade. And I need people to be aware of that because those are the people that are running around here talking about I can build your business to millions of dollars and I'm a consultant, I'm a mentor. Those people that can talk so beautifully, they be at conferences that they shouldn't be at, talking beautifully, are the same people that do not self-reflect and will pretend that they are. And if you don't have a leader that can tell you when they made a mistake, how they fixed that mistake, what they see coming, and they can't have those kinds of discussions, that is not your mentor, and that's a red flag. You need to look elsewhere. So that's all I gotta say about that. That's all, but just self-reflect, guys. That's all we want you to leave with when you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

That part.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Really self-reflect.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

Like, actually, I love to make jokes like oh, I yelled because you made me to my kids, not not to my colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Yeah, it was like to to the BTs. You're like, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Many of y'all, y'all better not be commenting on here talking about Matthews B Matthews B yelling at me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

We're gonna get a comment, and someone's gonna be like, Matthews yelled at me yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

You stop like there ain't no video, you're a liar.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

A liar. Well, I think that's it for today. I think we went over a lot. Um, I hope you guys self reflect, and then we'll see you in the next one.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

See you.