The Art of Fire Cooking

Join us for an captivating interview with Cai Ap Bryn, the visionary behind Game and Flames, as he shares his unparalleled expertise in the art of cooking venison over an open fire. A seasoned hunter, fisherman, and chef, Cai demystifies venison cooking, transforming it from an intimidating endeavour into an accessible and exhilarating culinary experience. In this episode, we delve into the primal allure of flame-cooked venison, exploring techniques, flavours, and the philosophy behind his cooking.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello and welcome to the Venison podcast. Sorry for the delay since our last episode, but we are finally back, and today we are joined by the legendary Kayak Brynn, also known as Game of Flames. Kai, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Well, I'm fine, thank you. Um well, lovely to see you. I think the last time I saw you was in um Eat Game Awards, isn't it? We had a we had a fun night out there.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

That was really fun dancing in Soho to the Wii hours, which I haven't done for about two or three years.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

So I think that's the point where me and my uh friend Kevin ended up going for a breakfast, like at I think it was like four or five a.m.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah, and then went to bed afterwards. Yeah, yeah. Work the next day was hard. Luckily, I went and visited some game dealers, so they were very understanding.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

But which is yeah, I just remember like thinking, what's good? I mean, only in Soho can you do that, I guess. Yeah, go out for a night out and then go for a breakfast at like 4 a.m. or something. I think it's Cafe Bruno or something like that. Well, I can't remember. But it was a very, very fun night, so it's lovely to see you again.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yeah, and the food was amazing. Um, so I recommend the game awards to anyone who can go to it. You've you've won it a few times, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, so I've been lucky enough to be nominated and won it um not this year, the previous two years uh in the influence uh slash media category, uh, which was an honour to win that. I was up for champion of champions this year, and I think the caddy man took it deservedly. So that was um that was really nice. Do you know what? It's just a nice event to be part of as well, because you're mixed with other people who are really passionate in the industry about game, about eating game and and promoting it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Um so for those listening who might not who you are, because our whole podcast is trying to reach new people who don't know about venison, please could you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Oh, absolutely. So my name is Kaya Brynn, as you've already said, uh I run a company called Game and Flames. And actually, Louisa, this is this is this is this is 10 years, like 10 years now. On the 31st of this month, my business has been registered. Wow. Yeah, it's been a it's been a long time. And I've I've I've been in the industry for before that I'd at a company called Wild Food Catering Company, which I did for seven or eight years, doing venison and wild boar burgers. Took a year out and decided to try and do some more stuff on fire and flames. And initially the the the scope of the business was to try and teach people, uh, school kids and anyone really how to skin, butcher, and cook in the woods and do something quite fun, which it was. And then the wedding started creeping back in, like I used to do. And I thought, well, maybe if I did everything's on the fire and mixed up with game, um, we could be onto something quite fun here. And it did, it kind of really took off, and we started doing more events in the industry, a lot of festival events outside the industry. To now we're doing we've got multiple events throughout the year, um, although through October, some industry events like the game fair, uh the Northern Country Sports Show come up next week. We did um the stalking show, which was a fantastic show as well, and then also crossing over into the public sector, we do like big festivals like Download Latitude, Wilderness, Isla White Festival, and loads of other things in between. But aside as doing that, what kind of spurred me on to do what I was doing is I am a keen hunter, and from an early age, um fishing with my dad and my brothers, I was really interested in wild food. Uh, grew up in North Wales, did some trout fishing, moved down to the south of England with my dad's um job, and there's no trout where we are in Kent, where we were at the time. So we started doing sea fishing, mackerel, going out on the boats. Loved it. And then I go into air rifles, rabbits, and then obviously, naturally, like most people, that progresses up to kind of um well, for me anyway, it was deer management and my love of venison, and you know that's that's what's brought me here today.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

You've just answered like five of my questions. I was gonna say, Oh, sorry. I just rambled, we're just rambling on. Um what I was was there a specific moment where you realised that actually, you know, your passion for the outdoors and food and fire and storytelling could become your career, or did it just slowly happen?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

It kind of slowly happened. It was a bit like I still pinch myself now. I'm not, you know, it's hard running a business as you know yourself, it is hard work, and you know, it there's swings and roundabouts to that. I worked for many years in the nuclear industry as a career, had a proper career doing radiation protection. I was a team leader for projects, um, I had a really good career there, but I was it just felt empty, and I needed to, I was running Game of Flames at the same time, as well as doing my career. And naturally, as I started to get busier, that kind of overtook uh my day job basically, and I had to make that switch. And it was that point when I made the switch, I just remember thinking this is quite scary now. This is you know, I haven't got a reliable income, this is I've got to make this work, and there's been amazing moments, there's been low moments, and obviously, when you're on social media and stuff like that, most people just see kind of the really good things that you put out there because you're marketing yourself, you know, you want people to see that um you're doing well, you want you're trying to drum up more business and everything else, but it's the long hours, the staff issues, and everything else in between is really, really hard work, but besides that, it's still my dream job. I absolutely love it. You know, just being out there like today, I'm off to St. Albans Food Fest Foodies Festival, and you know, we're serving venison to the public there, and I never ever ever get bored of that interaction with the people, especially outside the industry. A lot of people within our with and within the shooting industry kind of already know what venison's like, and they're kind of very familiar with it. But people who are new, especially when you go to the outskirts of London where we are, and it's a new experience for people. I just think it's amazing when people try and go, that is incredible. And he said, Well, that's that's venison, it is incredible. You've got you've got to cook it right, treat it right, and then it's world-class meat.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Um, I'm gonna ask some more questions about um what you educating the public in it in a little bit, because obviously I've done a bit of that in the past. Yeah. Um, but I'd love to hit your point of view on it. Um, you have you've mentioned your social media and you've built quite a large audience um around sort of primal cooking and outdoor living. Why do you think people connect with it so deeply?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

I think it's real and it's primal, you know. I think when people see that, um, and even people who I have lots of people on there who are vegetarian and actually have got some vegan friends, because they see what I do is genuine. There's no there's no smoke and mirrors, you know. I'm I am a hunter, I do shoot and I do kill animals, but it's all for the table, um, not just for the Instagram stuff like that. Everything we use is put through, I've got a facility, we've got we hang it, we skin it, we butcher it, every single deer that we shoot. When I say we, um I have a couple of friends as well that fill up fill my freezer, and everything gets used in the business. So it's you know, I all that all that goes through and as part of my USP and my story, and I try and showcase that. Well, I say showcase, I try and portray that in my in my Instagram as well as other lifestyle things to be as genuine as possible with it, and I think people can connect with that and understand that you know where they like to know where their food comes from, and that's the story I kind of portray.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Obviously, you show the whole story from you know the deer out in the wild being harvested and all the way through or shot. Um, but yeah, weird because you know, some people find that word really offensive.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

So they do, and even when I'm talking to you now, when I say killing or almost like an aggressive term, it's but it is, and I think more than ever, I've got I've accepted that saying, no, it is what we do. I'm not shying behind it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

You do kill an animal, and people are so disengaged from where their food comes from. Um, I guess when they find your page as such an education piece, do you ever have any really negative comments on it?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Do you know what? Like, I'm really surprised that very, very rarely do I get negative comments. I try and be as respectful as I can. I often don't put pictures of um a lot of dead animals on there that I've shot, and you know, and I shoot and I shoot all the time, so that you know there could be loads and loads, and other people do that, and that's fair enough. But for me, you know, it's it's that's not what it's all about for me. It's you know I'll put a little taster so people can see what I do a little bit like that, but it's it's the I'm mainly focused on the food and the rest of it as well. And I think that's what people see is I'm not focused on like putting glory shots of killing and posing behind the animals. Um, there has been a couple in the past, but then it's always been followed with like a with a with a piece about food. Um, and I've and I think because of that, and I've I've leaned more towards the food side of it, people I don't get as many of that those comments. And I I know I have done, and I probably will get a lot more in the future, but that's that's part of the job doing what we do.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

And do you think though the people that comment saying just uh uh have got a very sort of closed-minded view and they don't actually know any better? Or do you think it it's just they just think you're sort of out there kidding for fun and and haven't really got what you're trying to do?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

No, I think you're right. I I I mean when I when we say close closed mind closed view, that that's from our perspective, because obviously we shoot and hunt, but I also understand from their perspective as well, you know. Um because if people do care about animals and everything else, and rightly so, I can understand that why would that that would that that's why that would upset them. But at the same time, you know, that's why I try and educate people and say they are I love deer, I'm passionate about deer, I don't shoot them because I hate them. I want to see deer for the um all around the UK for the rest of my life. I don't want to see them decline in any way. The only thing is the numbers have to be managed, as you know, and it's about speaking to people and explaining why we do what we do because of you know they're a detriment to themselves, so there's too many, there's no natural predators, so they spread diseases, you know, they compete for food, especially in areas which um remote areas uh in Scotland and other places where where they have harsh winters um and and they struggle, they can be a big detriment to themselves. Um also, you know, the agricultural problem of the crops, uh road accidents, I mean the list can go on and on and on. Too many deer cause a massive problem. Um, and the idea is to have a balance of where we still have lots of deer of all the six species that we have, um, but to a manageable and sustainable level. And but what we do with with that is rather than just have to cull them for the sake of it, is no make them an asset. They are a food source, they are they have a value to them, so we can use them then to um you know to to promote more venison, eat a game, and just have that as a reliable food source.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Why do why do you think venison is so unfamiliar or intimidating to so many people in the UK?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

That's a good I've had this conversation with lots of people, and I think I think now more than ever is starting to be a a bit more in people's minds because I think a lot of it is still with social media, TV, and lots of other things. However, there is still like a an elitist view on venison that people think it's food for kings, um, it's very expensive, um, it's very gamey, tastes very strong, it's you know, it's the food for tofts and all that type of stuff. Um I know, and you know that that's changed. Venison in places now is cheaper than beef and lamb. The prices of beef and lamb have gone through the roof. If you find a really good game dealer, a supplier, you could feed your family uh, you know, a reasonable price of venison. Not only is it better for them, um cheaper, but it's it's it's sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

You can also buy whole carcasses and cut them down, you know, break them down yourselves. That can save you a huge amount. Like I know Wild Meat Company, for example. Not that I'm promoting uh competitors, but you know, they do sell whole munchjacks if if you're you know, and and you could just break that down and put it in in the freezer.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

And exactly, and if you if you're willing to put the work into it and to learn more about it, and you don't have to be um an experienced butcher to break down a deer, once you've done a couple and you understand like how to break them down into primals, the only way that you're gonna learn is just to get your hands on it and just do it. You can watch a million YouTube videos, but until you have a knife in your hand, you can actually feel it and know where everything is, it's it's it's trial and error for you know, and that's part of the fun though, getting to know you know your food and then learning how to cook different parts of that animal because they all cook separately differently. You can't cook it all the same, you can't cook a shoulder like a steak compared to you know, like a hodge or a or a loin.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

What do you think is the most underrated cut of venison?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

This is a this is a good question. So, do you know one of my least favourite parts of of of um a deer is to eat like venison is to eat, and it's not and it's not because I don't dislike it, it's not because I love every single bit of it. But I'm not I'm not massively overwhelmed by loin, like the venison loin, and that's what most people like, right? Because but to me, it lacks good texture, um, it's very tender, but I think there's much more flavour in the rump of uh you know a nice fallow that I have or anything. I really like the rump. Um there is the sloke.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

There's a bit more fat on the rump, and that's why there's a bit more fat.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, but it's also more like fibrous, so you get more when you get more of like a beef-like texture in it as well. I'm not talking about the flavour, I'm talking about the texture. Because when you're talking about food, what's important, not only about the flavour of things, but it's the textures as well, that are a big part of it. And when you when you've got like a little bite to it, it's I love I love the rump, it's really nice, it cooks really well. That's if I was um frying something very quickly, you know, to make um a nice steak dinner or or something like that. However, I think some of the most underrated meats are the things like the shanks, the venison shanks. You know, if you like lamb shank, you'll definitely like lem uh uh venison shank. So if you like lamb shank, very similar uh to the venison shank, and just slow cook that with a nice, nice stock um rosemary, red wine gravy, um, some especially in the winter time. I mean, it's we're getting summer now, so it's probably the wrong thing. But you can even make an osabuko with it as well. We chop that up and do that more of a summer dish. So, but it's full of flavour because all those kind of uh muscles connecting parts, uh the sinews, they all become gelatinous and it adds so much flavour into it, it gets really nice and juicy and just falls off the bone. It's yeah, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, shank is the thing that we get a lot of demand from chefs in hotels wanting, but it's actually quite hard to source.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um I don't know. Yeah, a lot of people trim it to put into burgers and sausages because they think it's a tough cut, a lot easier. We just if you know, and they just go down the easy route. Um, but if you I always keep mine whole and I slow cook them. So what we do at Game of Flames, we when we do our festival and events, we have whole haunches that we marinate and hang over the fire pits, and we smoke them and we finish them off on the wood fired grills, and that's really really good. But what we had was so much loins and and haunches that we use in, and then we decided to use up all the trim, so all the all the stuff of the belly, the shanks, the shoulders, the neck. We would save them up, we would backpack them and save them all up, debone them, and then we slow cook them with our uh with our marinade and rubs, then we do like pulled venison, and then so we have like two options of venison now that goes in flatbreads with all the salads and our sauces, chimichuri, and all that type of stuff. And so use every every single bit of the animal.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, I love doing loaded fries um with pulled venison on top. Such a good hangover um meal. But it's what um you know, we've to to educate students and stuff, you know, that's just like such a great uh meal they can just eat in one hand and really but still like pretty healthy compared to eating other meats.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

So absolutely, and you know, I think that's important because I like so I do a few things like that. I try to do modern recipes with game, street food style recipes, things that are kind of fresh and exciting that appeals more to the to the the younger audience because they're the next generation coming up, so you can do your game pies, your curries, your stews, and they all have a place and they're all absolutely delicious. But game is a lot more than that, you know. There's lots of different multicultural recipes out there that you can use. Um, the I mean there's there's tens of thousands of things you can do with game, um, and especially when you're dealing with the younger generation, trying to do something that they can relate to, like fast food things or just exciting things, and they'll so they'll try it. So at the stalking show, we launched a new product, which was our buttermilk pheasant burgers, which went down an absolute storm, and we do them again next week. So we just flattened some pheasant breasts, we made our own kind of like um KFC style seasoning, basically. So we we we've come up, we did a lot of trial and errors, but we came up with our kind of um seasoning, and we we put it in the buttermilk, put it in the flour, we dredge it twice, then we fry it, and then we do like a Korean version. So we do it with gocha jang, hot honey, mayo, and then with kimchi, and then we do a buffalo version, so we do it with Frank's red hot sauce and a blue cheese um dressing. Oh good, nice, and then we do a classic, which is literally just a deep-fried pheasant burger with like shredded lettuce, pickle that we do like pink pickled onions, mayo, and a bit of tomato. So you know, a real good, like a classic chicken burger, because and and the tagline we've got for that is like it tastes like chicken, but better. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

So but Korean is like a massive food trend at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Oh, huge, yeah. I'll do so much of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

We've just created a 50-50 burger, like 50% fermented veg, like in a very Korean style, like nearly like kimchi, and then 50, um, and then the rest is venison, but like that uh for your gut health is so good for you. So um, yeah, I'm really excited about that launching. It's not on our website or anything yet. Um we've just tried it, you're gonna have to send me one down because I'll send you a whole load of our products once we've we've just redone our sausages and we've just um I'm really excited. We've done a hot like a five guys hot dog. Um very smoky spice, literally looks like a hot dog, you wouldn't know, but it's completely clean deck, it's got no bad like additives in, um, and it's all venison. Like it's so exciting. So, yeah, I'll definitely I will send you a whole load of stuff as soon as it's um obviously.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, I love things like that because like I said, there's so much you can do with game.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, it's not so much. I you know, people don't want to eat like processed food anymore, but like I still want to eat a hot dog, but I'd love to know that it's not full of rubbish, so yeah. Anyway, moving on. Summer is nearly here, which you know we've had this lovely heat wave, but now I think it's getting bit cold again. Um, we want to encourage more people to cook venison on the barbecue. So you are the the best place person to ask some tips for this. So, could you give some of your top tips for cooking venison over fire?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Absolutely. So, I obviously I built I've built my career on basically cooking venison over the fire over fire. So, I one of the good things that we do um this time of year, let's think about what's in season for a start. Um, so we've got Robux and Muntjack currently, both um excellent choices for the barbecue. So at the moment we're doing whole munjack haunches. So we take the bone out of them and then we open them up, we butterfly them. Let's say butterfly, it's more like opening it up because the hawk's like in parve, so you just undo some of the seams so it becomes flat, and then we we marinade that. So my my signature rub for the business is paprika, garlic, black pepper, lime juice, olive oil, and salt. Now you can mix that up, you can put some chilies, you can put um you can put some yogurt in with that. Um, even I'll tell you what works for quite quite well is Razel Hanoo, um, harissa yogurt, um a bit of citrus. Um I use the I tend to use a lot of citrus with it because it helps put the marinade into the meat. I don't like to marinate it for too long because it can start to change in the texture of the meat on the outside of.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

The meat can't it.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

It's like kind of chemically alters it. So, um, so I I put that in there for a few hours and then all backpack it and then I if you haven't got back package, just put it in a in an oven dish and some uh cling film it, and then bring it leave it at room temperature to come up to room temperature and stick at the same time. Get your barbecue so it's really quite hot, because with a venison haunch, what you want to do is make sure it's nice and pink in the middle. If you start overcooking that until it gets that medium to medium well done, you change the flavour of it, you change the texture of it. That then some people might find it gets a bit gamier, some people find it gets a bit tough.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Do you have to baste it?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

So we I baste it. So the first thing is once it comes up that the grill's really hot, I put it on, we get a nice kind of crust and char on the outside. The munjack haunch is quite uh quite small, it's about eight to nine hundred grams once you've deboned it. So flip it, I get a nice colour on it, and then flip it. Don't just keep flipping it over because what you'll do, you won't get the nice colour on it. And then you I use a thermopen, which is really important for me, like a uh like a temperature probe, an instant read one. And I look I look for about um about 49-50 degrees. Um when it starts getting to the late 50s, then it's gonna start like overcooking. So it's important to do that and let it rest. But yeah, I sometimes glaze it. So at the moment I've been glazing it with just something you can put a barbecue sauce or whatever, but I just I just like to glaze it with a bit of hot honey, really. I think you know that's really nice. Hot honey is just it's a beautiful product, nice bit of heat to it and sweetness, and goes really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Nice. And what about just sausages and burgers? Because obviously they're much leaner. Do you have any tips for someone who might that's like their entry level?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Absolutely, and I think so. When you're dealing with game, you've got you've got to be mindful that the the fat content is generally not the same as have if you're having pork or you know, or lamb sausages. So we do put some fat in sausages normally to kind of compensate for that. But it's quite important that when you cook them, don't overcook them, uh, let them rest, and then that's the best thing, same as the haunch, get a nice colour on them, but don't don't cook them because you think that you're gonna get like food poisoning and you end up cooking it till it's like dry in the middle. Um, just just get a nice uh yeah, just get a nice colour on them, take them off, let them rest. The same with the burgers. I actually make my own venison burgers, just pure mints, salt and pepper, and I squeeze them by hand, and then again, I normally do them on a griddle rather than a grill, and I do like a smash burger type type thing when I when I do them.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Um but if you Yeah, because it cooks so quickly, it it actually works really well. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

And if I know where my mints has come from and it's nice and clean, when I say nice and clean, it's like I I know it's like steak mints, it's not hasn't got lots of sinews and stuff like that. You haven't broken down lots of the other bits, which is absolutely fine if you're if you're gonna do a form burger with lots of other things in it. But when you're doing like a smash burger, you want it to be um almost like steak mints. Some people some I've added bone marrow into it, you can add some um tallow in it and loads of other things. Sometimes I just keep it as it is, pure venom mints, but I'll make sure it's pink in the middle and then serve it that way.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Have you had any disasters when cooking on fire?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah, absolutely loads. And anyone that says anyone that says that they haven't is is yeah, is not you know, they're not telling the truth because fire is so unpredictable, and when you're cooking outside with the fire, the weather, and the elements, there are so many things that can go wrong. Nothing horrendously wrong, like touch wood. Um, a lot of it's been fixable, but you know, we've done things where like hanging venison haunches and for some reason it's fallen off and fell into the fire, and then you've got to try and dust it off, put it back on and make sure it's okay. And then um sometimes things get burnt, you have to, you know, we have to trim things off. You know, it's it happens, it happens to every chef and every everything, and nothing life doesn't it's like life, it's not doesn't go smoothly all the time. There's little bumps along the way, and it's the same when you're cooking on the fire, it's so unpredictable, but it's also very rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Have you ever cooked it in the ground?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah, I've got quite a good funny story about this one actually. So I have done it successfully once. I did it with a venison shoulder. I think the shoulder is much better than a leg for doing that because again, all the connective tissues and sinews make it a lot more gelatinous because there's a lot more moving parts in the shoulder. Um, whereas the leg are the like bigger chunks of could just muscle, they can dry out, so they cut they do come apart fibrous, but because you haven't got the um the connective tissue running through it, it it tends to be a bit drier. So I've done it with the shoulder, but I did I did a pop-up in Norway with my friend Trigger. Uh, how long ago? It must have been like five, six years ago now. We decided to do a pop-up on an island he lives on on the west coast in Norway, and he's got a wild uh red deer population there that we've been sorting out, and he's got his local lambs. And we invited all the local, there's only 90 people that live on the island, and there's so many other islands around. Um, we promoted it, and people coming off little boats and bikes and everything was really sweet, really cool. And he decided he wanted to do this pit cooking thing, so we did that. We dug a big pit, made a big fire, and put rocks in there, got them really, really hot, and everything looked good. So we wrapped um some venison in foil, put it in the ground, and then covered it all up, like you know, like you like you do. And then when people were getting ready to eat, it was like the big grand reveal. So I'd been cooking, I I did my bit, I was cooking the Sado style on the crosses, so it looked really theatrical. We had um at the time we used uh some salmon from Norway, um, and then we used them, we planked them and tried them. They were really good, but then we had this big grand reveal of the of this venison coming out of the ground. I just remembered him digging it out, and everyone was in like a semicircle, like taking pictures, and everyone's like talking Norwegian between them. And he brought this thing out, and it was like, I'm not even kidding you, it was more raw than he went in than when he went in. Because he was in an island and he didn't think about it, like the water level was like basically the the rocks are submerged in water, so he literally just yeah, just cooled it down straight away. And this this this piece of venison was just absolutely chilled and fresh, yeah. Just unbelievable. It was so funny.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

So tartar.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, exactly. But um, I am I want to do one with a whole munt jack. So my uh one of the things I want to do is um just try it with a whole munt jack with lots of um we'll put some aromatics in there, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, that's I also want to really want to try putting it in the but I yeah, I've got a big party this summer and I was gonna spit roast and munt jack, but then I was like, it's just I'm not gonna be able to sit there and baste it. I you know, I'm gonna have to be like getting people drinks and stuff, so I was like, no, I'm just gonna do loads of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah, my advice would be because a lot of people say to me, Oh, can you do the uh spit roast or the venison on the cross? You absolutely can, but you don't get the same consistency as you would if you broke it down. The issue is it's not like a lamb where you've got a lot of intermuscular fat running through it and on the outside. It's a very lean animal, um, so it dries up very quickly. Even if you based it, it can like the the loins, especially tend to get really dry. Um, you can always cook it and then start carving bits off it halfway through cooking it, I guess. But the problem is the shoulders take an awful lot longer, and by the time the shoulders are done, the haunches and everything else are well cooked, and they kind of it's very hard. It's a very hard to do the deer like that. That's what I thought. If I did a munjack in the ground, maybe because um and put some moisture and some aromatics and other things, it might help steam and make it a bit better in that way. But um, I have tried to do lots of times doing that, and it was okay, it was edible, it was okay, but it just wasn't the best what you get out of the animal.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah, okay. Well, that's good to know. I will I will always break it, break it down then. Um, you mentioned earlier that you've been doing lots of festivals and public-facing events.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Do you get lots of people who haven't tried so many, yeah, so many, and at weddings as well. Um, it's but at festivals with people get tend to come up to you half the time quite drunk and a bit anebridge, and you know, and they're like, What's what's venison? Is it is it um is it what's the what's we often get called, is it like a male, is it like you know, a male cow? Is it you know, is it I think it's like V.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And yes, I come across that a few times actually.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I'm like, no, it's so ethically different, like a male calf. Um, and I said to them, like, no, close, but no, you've got the V right. Um, but no, it's we have a lot of people that come and they try it for the first time. And what we do, we give tasters. So when people come, oh, I never had it before, I'm not sure. We always go, try this and let us know what you think. And and most of the time they go, Oh, that is amazing. You do you do still have people that go, Oh no, I still don't like it, because well, A, they might not like it, but a lot of the time it's it's a psychological thing for people, you know. Like when you're trying for a lot of people, when they're trying something alien to them on or new, although it might taste okay, they can't get over the mental process of it, and that's you know, and that's what some people have to do, you know. That's that's some of the battles.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

If there's someone who says I don't like venison before they've even tried it, do you have anything to try and change their mind?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yes, I think going back to what you were saying, you know, the burgers and sausages, I know it's very basic and an easy way of getting into it, but they're a good way. But even better than that, I would say to start off, I would always recommend if you go, if you do like a bolognese or a lasagna, something that's very familiar to them, but I know it's hidden in a sauce, and I know, but they they can taste and go, oh, I I actually that could be beef. I I don't actually know the difference of that, and it helps. They can start coming around to it. Um, I think that's a really, really good one because I use it all the time for doing bolonises and lasagnas and meatballs and everything. And generally, I think it's a really good way of getting people to because I that's what I feel if I've got people coming out for dinner that never had it before. I will I will I will I'll do that if they're worried about it, but if they're not, I'll do like a nice steak or something or a roast.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I did an interview with the Times radio, and I said, you know, they said, How should we cook it for the first time? And I said, You want a steak? And she was like, No, no, that's too intimidating. And then I was like, Okay, we'll just do chili. This is it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Because the steak is the is the um it's a it's a whole piece of meat. That's you're gonna get the flavour of just just the the deer through that. Whereas if you start mixing with fl with other kind of like you said, doing a chili, it's more familiar to them, and then then from then on they can go, or maybe I'll have a steak next time, like in steps, baby steps.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Um, when you're at the the festivals, and I guess people are drunk and stuff, do you ever speak about the con the convert not the conversation, the conservation element, or do you just talk about flavour?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Oh no, I always I love talking about it. And sometimes, quite often actually, when they are a bit drunk and they've had having a great time, they're they're more open to like the dialogue is quite open, and it's really interesting because obviously people say how they what they really feel. And I've had some really good conversations with people regarding, you know, saying we shoot ourselves, you know, um, we take it back, we hang it, we prepare it, we butcher it, we freeze it down, and everything, you know, the animals lived a happy life. It's it's not been factory farmed, it's and it's really, really good for you as well. And they explain the reasons why. And I've had some, yeah, I've had some absolutely fantastic conversations over the years, and I will have lots more coming forward, probably this year, to be honest with you, because we're literally about to hit festival season now, and um we do more festivals than ever this year, so I can imagine it's gonna be some really good topics of conversation. And also on the back of that, one of the festival companies have asked us, I think it's Wilderness and Isle of White Festival, has asked us if we can do an on-stand butchery demo via fire pits. So they're gonna provide us with speakers, they're gonna provide me with like a microphone, and then a couple of times a day I will break down a haunch or something or break it down at a festival in front of you know, just pe people who uh don't go to game fairs or anything like that. People have never seen venison being cooked before, and then you're explaining to them what you're doing, which I think is gonna be quite exciting, it's quite a new thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah, I've done that at um Southampton show, and and it was really exciting because firstly, like a lot of people didn't even know what it was as an animal, and then and then by the end of it, you've got them eating it, like they've watched the the butchery demo, and it's a really great way to educate.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

People love it, people love it, and obviously, when if you're skinning a whole deer first, and if you're breaking down, they're a bit intimidated by it first because it they've got that's an animal, it's got a face, well not face, but it's got fur and everything, because we do do skinning and butchering and then cooking. But by the end of it, when it cut when it's like a um a product they're familiar with seeing in the shops, they're like, Oh, that's really cool. I want to try it now, I'll eat it now. If you ask them in the beginning, they'll probably be like, Oh, I'm not sure. But once you've broken it down into like steaks and different cuts, they're like, Okay, now I recognize it, I'm okay to try it now.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

I know I you might have seen my rant. I did a bit of a rant on Instagram being so angry because it's the most British meat we can possibly be eating, and it's never ever in supermarkets, you know, they have like British turkey, British chicken, British lamb. It's like, what about British venison, which is literally destroying?

SPEAKER_00 36:58

I know, I know, and you and you think it should be on there as one of those sections you see in the supermarket, and I guess it's all about sustainability, isn't it? I always argue people not argue, it's a conversation, it's having that fine balance because we want more people to eat venison, but if the whole country started to eat it, then we might have a bit of a problem. So it's you know yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

I actually I worry about that with our job because we're we're using you know, sometimes we're using five tons a week. So I I we're constantly talking to um like the British Deer Society and Bass to make sure that it's a sustainable thing and like what is the critical. So actually, I I do agree that supermarkets might be the right apple.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I think I think it's nice to have, and again, that's why my people think it's a bit of an elitist thing because it's not classified as some your your main kind of your your your meat groups there, but like I said, you look in the right places, you can get it pretty cheap, you know, compared to beef and lamb, and you can do some incredible meals with it, as we as we know, you know, that's why we promote it.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Um I could talk to you for hours about this, but I'm aware that you're an incredibly busy man and have uh very kindly fitted us in. So I will sort of wrap things up. But a question I ask everyone who comes to the onto the venison podcast is what is your favourite venison dish to eat? Not cook, but just to eat.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Oh that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

If you could get someone else to cook it, mine's always venison tartar because I'm always too scared to make it at home. But if anyone else is making it, yeah, I'm smash it down.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

This is gonna sound really boring for a lot of people, especially as a chef. But I love I love the steaks. I love I mean I I eat venison like three, four times a week. I hardly ever eat any beef. But for me, with comfort food and eating it like in the winter time when I've been stalking, I love a venison lasagna. I think a lasagna is such a you know, I know it sound might sound boring to a lot of people, but you know, I make it really rich. I make a nice regouille with some red wine, um, I make a nice cheesy bechamel with it. I I even put some um um some parma ham in it as well as a layer, and then put some on yeah, and then I you know it's like three or four different types of cheese. Like I love I love gruyere, um comte cheese, um even even like a nice proper, like punchy like West Country cheddar as well. But I love I love that because it's comfort food to me, and it's a it's it's like a one-pop meal almost as well, and it's got everything in there. Um so many other things I could I could say, but right now, it's probably the way I'm feeling right now. It's like, oh, I could probably even though it's what time is it? Like quarter to eleven. So I'd probably smash smash a venison lasagna. If you ask me something later on, it'd be probably a different meal, but it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

I um I haven't had it for ages. Like, that sounds so good.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

It is, yeah. I had it at an Italian restaurant once, and I was like, that's a really good idea. So yeah, just add that into one of the layers.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Can you could you do that as a video please? Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

I'll I'll make you uh I'll do I'll do one with on there. I'll add that on there. I'll do like a decadent uh venison lasagna, which is going to be like oozing and like nice and crispy on top.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Um Kai, thank you so much for coming on. If um people want to give you a follow or maybe book you for one of their events, where can we go?

SPEAKER_00 40:42

So we have a website which is www.gameandflames.com, so they can book me there for corporate events, weddings, festivals, and also I do um deerstalking assessments for the PDS, so they can book an assessment on their if they decide to go down that route doing you know, when I want to do their qualification. Um, Instagram is at gameandflames, so it's got an S of the Flames. Um that's where we're most active on there. Well, I have got Facebook and um I've started TikTok recently as well. I thought it was for young kids, but apparently it's it's good for business, so I've started it. So yeah. So you can find me there.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Amazing. Oh, thank you so much for that. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Bye.