Comms Leaders #7: ITS and TalkTalk Business

This episode of Comms Leaders brings together Dave Ferry (ITS) and Dean Giblin (TalkTalk Business) to discuss two big channel themes -the rate of technology adoption in the channel and the over-corporatisation of the MSP model. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello and welcome to this, the latest episode of Comms Dealers, Comms Leaders, a platform that lets us sit down with those in the channel to discuss some of the industry's burning topics. I've got two fantastic guests for this month. I'll let you introduce yourself, Jen, starting.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hey guys, yeah, so I'm uh Dean Giblin, um ops director at TalkTalk Business. Um, been in the channel now for what circa kind of 20 years. Um, held a number of roles across different industries, but uh most notably uh within the Talk Talk group and Talk Talk Business over recent years.

unknown 0:34

Great.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

And I'm Dave Ferry, I'm Chief Sales Officer at ITS. We're a fibre builder. We've built fibre past 25% of the UK's business premises. We've took that to market through a network of wholesale partners, Talk Talk Business being one of them, amongst many others in the uh in the channel.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Wonderful. Great to have you both join me. Uh Dave, we have another session booked in later. Uh we're going to talk about something top secrets. So without giving that away and getting us in trouble, what's new and interesting with ITS?

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So I think we've like the rest of the kind of fibre industry, we're looking at commercialisation. How do we make sure we're putting connections on the asset that we've built? Um that's gone really well for us. We're grabbing decent share in the market and we're looking at how we evolve that proposition to make that work. So a couple of things we've done in the last kind of 12 months for our internet access services. We've launched the DDoS protection platform partners can bundle in. Um, we've also got kind of care bundles for our premium broadband offer and FibreLite. We've now got those in a bundled product called FibreLight Plus, which is absolutely flying off the shelves. So that kind of internet access layer for the resellers, they're grabbing that pre-configured product and they're pushing that out and they're grabbing grabbing that really well. We launched that bundle in April. Um, it's probably been the best success of a product launch we've had in the layer three space. There is the top secret stuff we're going to talk about later. We might be building a little bit more network, which I think is going against the grain a bit in the uh in the in the market. And other than that, we're just continuing to grow that partner base, grow that channel approach, working with, you know, we're working with the resellers in the UK market, we're working with the uh MSPs, we're working with businesses like PXALET Talk Talk, um like Sky, we've got partnership there, and then now working with some of the international carriers as well who want to harness our fibre assets in the UK and use those to connect their demand points.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Great, thank you, and Dean. I imagine things have been equally as busy with talk talk business.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Um I mean, I've getting a little bit of foam about this top secret um thing that I'm not invited to later, but that aside, uh D can come. So I I I guess um in the way of talk talk business, right? We've been on a bit of a journey over the last two years. Um we've moved away from being a traditional connectivity uh provider uh and moved into the MSP space, um, which has been a big shift um for us um both culturally and you know and as an infrastructure and as a business. Um what we've also done is separated out from the Talk Talk group. Okay, so we are now our own um separate entity as Talk Talk Business. Um we've rebranded in the marketplace, we've kept the name for a number of reasons, um uh but we are a separate organization now that you know is ultimately in control of its own destiny, um, and that's really enabled us to shift away, as I say, from being known as a traditional connectivity um provider to an MSP. Uh there's been a huge amount of stuff that's kind of gone underway to do that. Um, you know, our strategy at you know a headline level is threefold. So it was around separation, so separating from that group, um, which you know it's there's there's many, there's many businesses that do acquisitions, but to do a separation is certainly um an interesting uh experience, right? You learn a lot along the way. Um but we've done the separation, then it was about repositioning ourselves, you know, so to be that NSP. Um, you know, we have we we're on a journey, we've been on a journey, we've made great headway on that, and then it's about growing. That's the third pillar. Um, so you know, it's been really busy and a lot's going on, but you know, really, really excited about what's to come as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Absolutely. Well, I appreciate both of you being busy sitting here, taking the time out and chatting channel. I asked you both to bring a burning issue, just something that's taking up a bit of bandwidth in your in your day-to-day thinking, something you think could do with a platform just to be discussed. Dean, do you mind if I come to you for your burning topic first place?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yeah. Um, yeah, so I think my my burning topic is around, you know, has the MSP model become um too corporate and and automated? Um, and you know, have we lost the customer intimacy that ultimately made it a success in the first place? Um so I think, you know, I think it's uh it is a burning topic. Everybody's talking about AI automation. Um I think it's an interesting question that we should all ask ourselves. And the MS, there's no denying the MSP model has definitely evolved over recent years. Um I think there are pockets where it has become a little too corporate and too too automated, but I don't actually think that that's the that's the issue. I don't think automation is the issue. I think it's the way in which it's being used or the way people believe it should be used. Uh and it's a classic, you know, is it a threat or is it an opportunity? Um, you know, when we uh talk to a business shifted from being that connectivity provider um to an MSP, we were really mindful not to lose sight of what made us successful in the first place. Um, and that was the relationships, right? The customer relationships that we've built up. So the you know, we love a good start, don't we? Um and uh, you know, the average tenure of a customer within TalkTalk business is about 14 years. So, you know, you don't kind of get that unless you've got genuine kind of intimacy, trust, and and built on powerful relationships. So, you know, it was very much around um we saw automation as a really important vehicle to scale, um, but it was you know, we see automation as a as a way of um you know it it helps to enhance those relationships, not replace them. And I think that's the that's the important thing there.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Do you think you can reach a business at the scale of talk-talk business in terms of headcount and still have that intimate service? What do you think underpins it?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yeah, no, I think that's a great, great question, Dave. I think um I I think you can. Um I think what it comes down to though is being really clear on um uh you know, from from what my I believe that customers don't necessarily want to have less human interaction. There's a bit of a myth out there, I think, that we kind of go, well, we just want it to be seamless and frictionless, and we don't want to speak to people. I think in the MSP world, customers don't want less human interaction, they want more meaningful customer interaction. Um, and some of the feedback that we got was that you know our customers loved our people, but our people were spending too much time on the low-value activities, um, and they couldn't see the wood for the trees, and therefore they weren't they weren't spending the time on the high value activities. So I think to answer your question, um I think it's definitely doable. Um I think the way in which kind of we're we're attacking that is we've moved away from the legacy systems that didn't talk to one another, and you know, which has happens to a lot of us, right? You know, through ac acquisition over the years, a lot of companies end up with a lot of uh systems. So we've streamlined all that brand new CRM, brand new billing platform. Um you know, we've cleaned our data, we've simplified our processes, and we've gone with a digital first experience. Um so you know, providing more self-serve capability to our customers. What that has done then in turn is it's freed up our people to be able to spend more time on. So we've almost got you know we've got named contacts for our customers now, um, they're spending time on uh proactive monitoring and fixing jeopardy management, so identifying things before it falls off the happy path. Um and they're spending more time with um with our customers on helping them to solve some of their challenges as well. So, you know, a number of customers in the marketplace at the minute I think have big challenges and big gaps with their cybersecurity um um uh kind of strategy. Um, and you know, we've now got customers coming to us asking us for help on how we can overcome that, and of course, we've got a product portfolio that allows us to then you know provide um though those solutions as well. Interestingly, those customers wouldn't have come to us in the past um if we were still doing the ticket management and the because you don't build the trust on you know doing all the low value stuff. Where you build the trust is you know the instant management and the you know all all that good stuff. So so I think that's where it is. Um I think the probably the the final bit on there is it can be done, but we we we can't be too greedy, right? And the there's probably it'd be an unpopular um statement this across the finance community, right? I'm an ops director, not a finance director, right? Um but automation there's no secret brings efficiency. Of course it does, right? And and I think the go-to place for a lot of organisations is right, we'll put automation in, it will deliver X amount of savings, we're gonna bank the lot. Uh and I think the sweet spot is recognising that you've got to reinvest a good proportion of that capacity and that saving back into your people to be able to do all those value add. Um I think it's you know, it's a short-sighted view of if you just strip out the cost, um, you'll probably get you, you know, some success in that in that financial year. Um will you still be around in three to five years' time? I s I suspect not. Um interest.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I think what you're talking about there, I mean, how does the I guess the question that comes to mind on what you've just said is does the supply chain underneath talk talk business support you well enough to be able to provide that frictionless?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Uh yeah, I think I think that's the that's the key as well, right? So it's making sure that you you partner up with um with with the right organizations. Right, because you know, we we as a network we we need to work with um key suppliers um from an IT stack, right? You know, in terms of our keeping our new CRM going and the continuous improvements, we have all that. Um and then look, a great plug like working with um people like yourself, right, from an ICS perspective, you know, it's really important that we've got we're working with trusted um network providers because we are only as good as that network stability. Um and you know, and it's not just the network stability, a lot of our customers, you know, once once those those solutions are in, they tend to work relatively well. The important thing is is the delivery expert, of course.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Being able to get that in there. We're looking at some similar things in in our business around that kind of automation. Um exactly the same vein. Obviously, we're a supplier to the channel, you're supplying to to end user businesses, but actually we've got some of the same challenges. We've got people spending time on low-value tasks, repeatable tasks, tasks that actually you can throw automation at and just do on repeat, so you can free up that resource to have those value conversations. And that's about us exposing as much as we can to our partners downstream, like yourselves, to say, actually, here's your estate of services, here's the ability to move, add, change, disconnect on those, here's the ability to potentially in the future monitor unbandwidth, keep track of your own orders so you can feed that in so that when one of your customers calls your person in your team or in your sales team and says, Hey, what's going on with this delivery? You don't need to come to us, you can just see it there and then and again enabling you to have that frictionless trade by us having frictionless trade between us. So I think we're probably working on some of the same objectives at different layers of the market. Yeah, I tend to agree. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah, and I mean on the intimacy point, we sort of talked before we jumped on here about how uh the industry is a bit like Hotel California, right? People come in and they they stay. Um it's that intimacy, Dara Say, incestuousness. Yeah, yeah. That a lot of the relationships in this channel are based on just in terms of the dynamic between um partners and and uh people upstream from them. Are you seeing there's more of a corporatization there, or is there still the the that genuine human connection uh running through the channel?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I think the channel's still built on relationships, I really do. You've got to build the systems in it so that you're not being inefficient. Yeah. Because inefficiency drives poor customer experience. And I think you're right, finance directors will say, in I'm gonna make it more efficient, I'm gonna save all this money. Actually, the inefficiency drives poor experience, so you've got to get rid of that inefficiency, but you've also got to point people and their brain power at complex tasks. No one's more bored than someone who types into tickets, types in tickets into a ticket and platform. No one's more excited than a salesperson who's working on a complex deal and helping a partner or helping the partner with their end user through a challenge. So we've got to point people at that. But I think the channel will always be built on relationships. We just need to, we all sell technology, we need to apply that technology inside our own businesses to improve that customer experience and be more efficient so we can point people at the complex problems.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah, I'd agree, and I think just to build on what they've said there is the channel's definitely built on relationships. Um, and I I think it'll take a lot to to move that away. I think it's about um just making it it's seeing the automation as an enabler, right, to to be able to be to be more human, more authentic, have those, you know, those engaging conversations because you know we see it, we've probably all travelled into um into this building today, and I bet it's head down, looking at our phones, you know, laptops, iPads, you name it. And and that distracts us from having these kinds of conversations, right? This it and and actually if we use the automation in the right way to get rid of all that noise, right, it allows us then to have those more engaging conversations, to be more creative in problem solving, um, you know, uh to identify issues before they actually happen. Um, but you know, I I don't think automation will ever get to a place whereby it replaces true kind of incident management. You know, when when things go wrong, people look towards other people to help fix it. Absolutely. And that's where you build your trust, right? Um, but yeah, I think it's it's all about automation being an enabler rather than you know uh you know distracting new way from it.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Absolutely, and I guess on the loyalty point, there is a flip side, right, where it can be done to a full. I always use the uh ACME example, you know, Wiley Coyote is using this brand and he's never caught the roadrunner, none of their products work, but there there must be some sort of brand loyalty that keeps him going to ACME as opposed to anyone else. Uh and you know, the question is, is there a better way he could be doing this? And what I'm slowly trying to do here is dovetail into your burning topics. You know what? Um that's brilliant. I could latch straight onto that.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

You've called it out, it's gonna make that look way slicker. Um question really was do we is the is the channel, our MSPs, harnessing new technology options that are coming through quickly enough to make sure that they're providing their customers with the latest technology, the right experience, and kind of you know future-proofing them in there. So that was my uh that was my burning question. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I guess my follow-up question would be if the answer is no, is that a uh a skills gap issue or or is it a a sort of rigid commercial model issue? Where where do you see the the uh the slowness coming from?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I think my view is is maybe twofold. I think one, there's MSPs, resellers out there in the market who are grabbing those those products, like ours, like others, you know, there's new voice options in the market every other week, and you know, there's new new this, that, the other. Um, and I get that it's hard because certainly if there's a plethora of new things coming into the market. I think if you look at some of the AI tools, everyone's AI this, AI that, there's lots of tools. But which one do I use? Rabbit in the headlights. And it probably can be a bit like that. When you look at what we've done in building fibre out, we've built the you know the latest technology we can do flexible upgrade paths from a broadband all the way through to an Ethernet service and and back down if a partner needed it. Um and we've built that right into dense conurbations where previously they've only had access to businesses have only had access to really expensive Ethernet. And actually, we've seen some partners in the market, quite a lot of the markets absolutely grasped that and got on with it. But there is still a cohort out there that's you know wedded to open reach, continues to use an open reach-based service, and actually there's better things out there. Um, I'm not sure it's a commercial challenge, or commercials are typically better than open reach, or deliveries typically better than open reach on an aggregate basis. I'm not going to say it always goes well because I've worked in the channel long enough to know that that's a really silly statement to make, but more often than not, it goes well, or delivery meantime just provides coming down, or deliver to promise is going up. Um, so I think there's uh I'm not sure if it's a commercial challenge. I think potentially apathy in the marketplace, sticking with what you've always known. And certainly I think there's a uh a mantra around the market of if you've got something in the ground, it's billing, just leave it alone. And actually, at some point those MSPs are probably gonna come a cropper for having not dealt with that when they could deal with it, because someone else is gonna come along and deal with it for them.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a really good point you make around I don't think it's a commercial um piece, I think it's some form of resistance to the change curve, right? Um and we're all we all have varying like you know appetite for going through that change curve in various paces. Um do you think it's something to do with the fact that not only are we are we asking our customers to go to a different product, but it's almost a different product, different supplier, potentially almost too much, too quick, too, too, too soon. Potentially.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

But I think if I was you in your business, I'd be saying, Well, we're the supplier, we manage that downstream, you've trusted us for 14 years on average, yeah. So trust us with this. And I think it's on the MSPs to grab that and use that position of trust. I think actually, if they don't, there will come a point when a different MSP turns up, some nice new options, nice and flexible, some other things over the top of it, and the MSP that was resistant to that change in the end's gonna lose it. Now that might be, we talked about finance directors, isn't it? Finance team in that business might say that's fine, we'd rather have more revenue or whatever from now until point B when it changes and then find more happy to lose it. Yeah. But actually, that seems like quite a short-sighted view.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You and I today.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, I know, like once I mean looking at this conversation, it makes me think of when I joined the industry and we were having a lot of these conversations in the cloud market about MSPs not being quick, but then that demand almost came from under them from their customers directly, and a lot of MSPs had to play catch-up. Is that still something you're seeing playing out in the market? Are you getting that demand from customers to say we've heard about this? I mean, AI's everywhere. It's all the obvious point to latch on to here. Um, what are you doing that means you can take us into the future with this? Is that same demand coming from the customer?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah, I think it is, um, I think there's a bit of a uh bit of a split, right? So I think today's point there's certainly um some customers that are kind of head down, um, if it's not broken, do not fix it. Um and we're having to go, I think there's a there's really a bit of a call to action in the industry um and in the channel to kind of go, how do we educate customers? How do we continue to educate customers that you know we need to be moving away from those like legacy arcade products onto onto the you know the the next gen. Um I think you know when we did the whole you know TV switch over, you think about it, it was government-led, right? It was big. You couldn't speak to anyone who didn't understand it. And and I think we're expecting people, you know, we all understand the technologies because we're in the channel. You know, if you if I speak to my my my friends, they they they just want to know does the Wi-Fi work, right? Does it, you know, and uh therefore I think there's a big education piece that we need to do to do out there which will further uh increase the appetite for it. That said, there's then a cohort of people that are going, I know the future is, you know, various product sets, um, and they're really keen to uh to get onto it. So we've just got a we've got a bit of a I guess a bit of a blend. Um I do think there's a you know there's a big opportunity though in terms of cross-sell of products, right? And that that's kind of something that we're we're doing at uh at TalkTalk Business. Um, you know, one of the reasons why we became an MSP. Um because if you think about you know, and Apple do a really good job of this, right? So if you're a connectivity provider, you're you're basically selling, you know, you're selling connectivity. And and ultimately, you know, people only need so many connections, right? So, you know, yeah, okay, they might want a resilient line, so you might have two, but you're not gonna get five, six different uh different opportunities. Whereas, you know, actually there's we talk about technology enhancing, you know, businesses, enhancing lives and what have you. We've got a huge we've probably never had so many products that we can offer to to do just that um in the marketplace. And and I think that's the key, it's about educating um our teams who then can you know educate customers on how they can better use these these products to you know drive profitability in their own businesses, their own lives, whatever that may be. And of course, off the back of that, there's more market share to be to be gained, you know. The example being Apple. So Apple don't just sell mobile phones, right? So they started there, right? But it started with computers, but you know, let's go with me on this analogy. So you go, they were selling mobile phones and they did a really, really good job of that. Um, but nobody needs more than you know, one, possibly two if you have a work phone, but that but it maxes out of there. It's probably not your try, it's either what one you get, is it working? Exactly. Yeah, so you've got the phone and therefore there's that much market share. What they then start to do is go, right, we'll we'll we'll go into iPads. You don't just buy your iPad and ditch your phone, you keep both. Then you get the Apple Watch. Again, you don't ditch the iPad and the phone because you've got the Apple Watch. And before you know it, so there's a there's a big market out there. Um and as I say These are all products that will only uh enhance businesses, particularly as we move more into an automated world where cybersecurity has never been more important.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

There's definitely some brands out there that are good at that. Obviously, Apple Locky then in as well, in the subscriptions. You've bought some extra storage for your photos, you've got everything, you're just stuck in there, aren't you? And actually, when you're in the ecosystem, it all works brilliantly, completely seamless. You know, copy and paste from this device to the other and everything, which is great. I guess at the other end, outside of kind of the traditional tech market, I've always found Dyson to be one of those brands that's really good at upselling. We needed a new Hoover, the handheld thing was broken. I went on the website, I was just need the cheap one. But by the time you go, well, you can get the next one up with all the features for an extra tenner. And before you knew, I bought a top one. I've got loads of bits that live in a cupboard, and I've never used them, but they take you through that journey. And I think them I think the market kind of expects it. I think it's different. You know, you're an MSP selling to a large enterprise, you take them through that journey through you know a sales process, there's a procurement exercise going on inside that business, a business case somewhere. Yeah. But the logic's the same, you've got to build the proposition so you can fold it all in, bring the latest options to them, whether that's connectivity, whether it's cloud, whether it's voice, whether it's some kind of AI platform that's not been invented yet. You've kind of got to, as the MSP, you've got to build those propositions in the right way. And I guess where the channel's always been excellent in the UK. 70% of SMEs buy from the channel. That was a start of it a couple of years ago, so I'm gonna believe it's still true. And I can't see a reason why it wouldn't be true. What the channel's always been great at is piecing together disparate best in-class options to suit that that customer's requirement and satisfy their challenge. Um, and I think the channel needs to keep doing that with the newer options that's out there and educating their customers, not just sticking with the status quo.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And Dyson point's a good one, they do suck you in. Um sorry, terrible terrible.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Can we edit that out?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Please. Uh no, I I guess there's two different questions here as well. Um there's overcoming the inertia, and then there's doing it correctly. So, you know, where's the balance for an MSP between being very keen to get involved in something and having that right mindset but actually applying it correctly?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

So now I don't know whether the two questions maybe link together. And you know, if an MSP has become maybe a little overcorporal, do they then worry too much around bringing something new in because they kind of think, oh no, that's not how we do things. We don't want to try something new, we don't want to do this or that or the other. We're gonna stick with what we've always known because we're the experts. And I guess none of us have got crystal ball. If we had it, not a year, we'd have won the lottery. Um, but the the the outcome could be one of that was the right decision, yeah, or it could be one that that was the wrong decision. You know, you could choose something new and it goes to pot, and then you've really messed your customer up. You could choose to not do something new, someone else comes up with it and takes your customer away from you, or your customer sees it, and why didn't you bring that to me? And you kind of damaged your relationship. So I think it's I think it's really hard, but I do wonder whether the question you had around the kind of corporatization of the MSP market drives inertia of adopting new things.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yeah, yeah, I think I think to build on that, I I think it's about making sure you know the the automation, the corporatization of it, um I keep going back to this, it drives efficiency. Um, and I think there are there are a number of um companies out there that go, right, we're just gonna bank that saving. And I think what we do uh at talk to our business particularly well is to go, right, okay, of course there's gonna be some some efficiency savings in that, and that means that we can continue to be profitable, sorry, competitive and profitable in the marketplace, but it's about not getting too greedy, right? And I think that's the balance we've struck particularly well to go, right? How do we not cut too deep too quickly, making sure that we've still got um you know enough people with the right skill set, right, and the right culture within our organization um to be able to then um should things go wrong, right, um, we can fix them, right? You know, without the customer impacts, and it also enables us then to be a little bit braver and a bit more innovative on expanding our product portfolio because we then kind of go, right, you know, as whenever you you take on a new product, it is new, right? And and and to your point, you know, we've got we've got to learn. But if you're too lean as an organization, then you you know those learnings are really expensive because and they're at the detriment of the customer. So, you know, um we gave the finance team a pretty hard time, but to you know, to to give them the due from a from a T T B perspective, I think we've got that balance uh balance about right. Um but you it's certainly a balance to be struck.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Fantastic. And this will be the test to see if you've watched any previous episodes, but we always like to end with one last on-the-spot question. Uh also good for uh clipping out for LinkedIn, a bit of a clickbait question. But uh, if if you had one last resounding message you could leave with a MSP business leader, just an action they could take in their business, or or one critical thought, what would you have that be? And uh Dave, I'll put you on the spot first.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Well, I'm gonna go sales because I'm a sales guy in our business. Well, certainly the guy that needs the sales in our business. And I'm gonna say you need to have a look at the alternative fibre options that's out there to serve businesses, and I would say that ITS is one, got the biggest reach of alternative B2B fibre provision, B2B only, wholesale only. Um and they should come talk to us and make sure they're harnessing the network that we've built to serve customers because lots of their competitors are, and I think if they don't get on it, they'll get left behind.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Dean? Yeah, I think for me it's about um seeing automation as a as an opportunity rather than a threat. Um, and you know, it's the enabler for continuing to build on what's made us successful up to this point, which is the relationships. Um so I think very much the future is about automation which drives scale, but plus human interaction. Um, it has to be the bit the blend.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, someone someone worded it really nicely to me once that it's with automation we've got a habit as humans of turning walking sticks into weapons. You know, use it as something that can support you, not something that's going to damage you in the future. Yeah. Really uh really value both of you sitting here and taking the time out today. It's been great. Thank you so much. Cheers, thank you. Cheers, guys.