Nom Nom

Why Great Food Brings People Together | Chef Josh Bostic

• Enroot • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Chef Josh Bostic, executive sous chef at Rose Mary in Chicago. 34 years old. I grew up in a small town in Indiana, which has nourished my love for farms and farmers my entire career. I love music and community and being able to create special moments with people.

https://www.rosemarychicago.com/

Nom Nom is the podcast of Enroot, a global storytelling movement that uses food, culture, and memory to build connection across differences. Founded and hosted by Elika Dadsetan-Foley, a global social impact leader, Persian-American immigrant, and cultural connector, Enroot brings people together in ways that are simple, human, and deeply needed right now.

We believe that food is one of the oldest technologies of connection. Every dish carries a history, every spice holds a memory, and every table is a place where community can grow.

Follow us: 

@eat_enroot 

media@enrootyourself.org

enrootyourself.org



SPEAKER_01

This is Nom Nom, a storytelling podcast connected to InRoot, where we explore how food, memory, culture, and belonging intersect. At Inroot, we often say that food is one of the oldest technologies of belonging, how people come together, share stories, and connect. Today we have Chef Josh Bostig joining us. Chef Josh is the executive Sioux chef at Rosemary in Chicago, working alongside Chef Joe Flam. His work reflects a deep commitment to craft, to team, and the experiences of bringing people together through food. And I have to say it feels especially fun to have you join me today, Josh, because we've had a chance to cross paths at the Palm Beach Wine and Food Festival. And you're just one of those people who brings a really grounded positive energy into a space. And it's really stayed with me since we first met. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I was literally so excited when you reached out because I was like, what an incredible human being to remember me. That was like, I'm so touched and I'm so happy to be able to reconnect with you and actually get to have like a conversation where I'm not like hands deep in some tuna or covered in Calabrian agri dolce.

SPEAKER_01

All of which sound great. Um just a reflection of you. So thank you again. Um, so we're gonna just do some warm-up rapid fire questions.

SPEAKER_00

Great.

SPEAKER_01

Are you ready? I'm so ready. I've never been more ready. Okay, great. So sweet or savory? Oh, savory. Cooking or eating.

unknown

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh. Wow. Or a both and no, it has to be a choice. I am I'm working on making full decisions lately. Um, so I'm gonna go cooking because you get a taste of food while you're cooking. And most of the time, by the time I'm finished, whatever I'm making, I don't want the full thing anyway because I've tasted it so many times. So I'm going cooking. I'm going both.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, that's like a really good point, actually. You do eat while you cook. Um, one ingredient you always come back to garlic. A dish you could eat every day.

SPEAKER_02

Every single day. Um, that's really hard for me because I'm so I'm so flowy and I get like hyper-fixated on things and like different meals. Um but honestly, right now, this is the most embarrassing thing because I'm a good eater. I'm a clean eater. I promise. I swear to God. I can't wait for this. But right now, my biggest addiction in life is the Miss Vicky's spicy dill pickle chips dipped in this like ranch. It's this like spicy jalapeno ranch from oh my gosh, I forget the brand now, but it's from Whole Foods, and it's just like the best thing in the entire world. That is what I could eat every day, and I have been for like a couple of months, embarrassingly enough.

SPEAKER_01

Not embarrassingly, I'm actually gonna make sure I have some of that in my kitchen.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna I'm gonna send you the um ranch people because I feel bad that I don't remember the name because I posted about them and they sent me like coupons for free ranch, and I was like, oh my god, this was like my dream come true.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. And I love dill and I love or like dill pickles and I love ranch, so that sounds like heaven to me too. Um okay, best thing to eat with friends.

SPEAKER_02

Best thing to eat with friends. I mean, my very first thought was French fries because people can like pull like that, but I'm not a French fry guy, so I don't think I want that for me. So I'm gonna go pizza because I love pizza and I feel like everybody can like grab their own thing and it's a kind of a filling. Yeah, I'm going pizza. I'm going pizza.

SPEAKER_01

Well, on that note, deep dish or New York style?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, New York style, New York style all the way. Crispy, crunchy. I want like a little two in the back of the crust, but like New York style forever.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. All right, thank you. We'll go a little deeper. Um, and a question I often ask folks is what meal reminds you of home?

SPEAKER_02

Hmm, well, my grandma is really well, both both my grandmas cooked, but like one of my grandmas is like way, way more of a cook. Um, and she makes the same thing for me every single time I come home, and it's always like she makes these like beef and noodles. It's just like roasted beef with mashed potatoes and noodles. It's the most carb-heavy thing. Again, I promise I'm a good eater. I'm from Indiana, I'm from like a really small town in Indiana. So I want to preface it with that. So um I think anytime I have like a braised beef with mashed potatoes situation, it always just makes me like think of my grandma. Um, and she's like one of the best people in the whole wide world. So that always makes me feel good. So I'd say that.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Do you remember like the scent when you walk into the house and she was making it?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. Well, and actually, so this year for Thanksgiving, you know, being a chef, I don't always get a go home for Thanksgiving. In fact, like most of the time I don't go home, I go home for Christmas. Um, but I went home this year for Thanksgiving and I was like, Grandma, I really want to make beef and noodles with you. She doesn't make turkey, we make beef and noodles and all the things. I was like, I want to do them with you this year because um, you know, I want to learn everything the way you do it. And she's like, Oh, I don't do it all fancy like you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, but the way you make it makes me feel so good inside. Um, and so I gotta learn all the kinds of ins and outs. And I can still like, once you said that, I can smell it right now, which is crazy. Like, I could smell that scent, like right when you open the door. It's always every every time I come home, which isn't that often, which is unfortunate, but she always does it.

SPEAKER_01

Did she realize or had she realized before you said that the how important that dish was for you?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I like kind of we've always had a really special relationship with food. Me and that side of my grandparents. Um, they used to take me, I worked at my mom's store. My mom has a pharmacy and it was like a gift shop in the front. Um, and she was a manager, and I worked in the back of the like candy counter, and I worked every Sunday, which was awful in high school. Um, but my grandparents would come and pick me up and take me to different places to eat because I knew I loved to eat, and where we live, there was nowhere, like literally nowhere to eat. And so they drive me like 45 minutes wherever, and we'd go and eat different places. And so food was always like really important to us, but I'd always be like, Oh, but grandma, like, I want you to cook too. Like, this needs to be like, I'm sorry, this is so much work for you, but this is my favorite thing in the whole wide world. And it's still to this day, probably is my favorite thing in the whole wide world.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Would you say that's who kind of shaped your relationship to cooking early on, or was there anyone else?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, uh, absolutely her. I mean, my parents, neither one of them cook. Um, and it because they worked a ton, both of my parents are like work horses and have instilled such an like an amazing work ethic in me and always made sure I was doing a lot of things, me and my sister. Um, but they didn't really cook. And my other grandma, she babysat and she would babysat, babysit us as well. Um, but she would just make like big things like grilled cheese and stuff, nothing that was like, you know. Um, but the first people to really like embrace any kind of like food thing with me was them. But I was still a very picky eater until I was like 18 or 19, which is if you knew now, I'm like vegetable king and I was like the chicken finger kid. Like embarrassing, so embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01

That's amazing. So, what would you say are your earliest kitchen memories?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I have hmm. I'm trying to think if this is early or not, but my most like the one that comes to my mind the most isn't actually with my grandma, which is kind of crazy because I know I said my mom doesn't cook, but there's one thing in my family that my mom does make. And this is my earliest memory of her teaching me how to make it. Um, and we call it grandma's dip, my grandma's dip. Um and I still make it sometimes, and it's also one of my other favorite things. It's my other grandma, my grandma barbs. Um and my mom would always make it and then let us like lick the beater afterward because she'd make it in her little like shitty, like I'm trying to say Hobart, but that's not even right, not even kit like Kitchen Aid. It was like, I don't know, I don't even know how to explain this thing, but she let us lick the beaters afterward, and that for me was always like I can't wait till she would make it because it was one of the few things she would do and I could get like a homemade thing. Cause I've always liked everything to be fresh, I just didn't know that, and I was getting fed so much like bullshit food, and my body just like rejected it. I also had like uh stomach issues, and so it was just like not only do I not like this, my body's rejecting it, but it's all that I know. So I was like safe with a few things, and then I finally found like clean eating in the way that like it made me feel good, and I was like, oh my gosh, if this would have been my entire health journey as like a younger kid, I wish I just could have like experienced life a little bit with that, but it's okay, it all worked out the way it was supposed to, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's awesome. What was my grandma's dip like? What kind of dip was that?

SPEAKER_02

Okay, are you allowed to tell us? No, no, no, I'll tell you, I'll tell you because like honestly, it's crazy, and I do think not many people would make this, but who knows? Um, so it's cream cheese, and you like whip the cream cheese, right? And then in the microwave, you heat up like I think it's two beef bullion cubes, like these, like it's in this red jar. I've never seen it anywhere other than my mom's house, so I don't know if they actually sell this at the grocery store. Um but you put that in with water and you melt it and you know, like dissolve it to make like broth, but it's like potent. Um, and you pour that in with like garlic salt and Worcestershire sauce, or however you say that name. Um and salt, and then that's it. That's literally it. But it's like one of my favorite things in the whole wide world. It's weird, but it's so good.

SPEAKER_01

No, it sounds like so simple and like exactly what I can imagine like mom would have made back in the day.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, a lot of our things were like that, and it it's literally it's it's like French onion dip kind of, but like without any onion or vegetables or anything like that, could be good for you in any way. Just cream cheese mostly.

SPEAKER_01

Sounds amazing. I love I love that you just gave us your family secret recipe. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, grandma's dip. Well, you know, if you make it, if anyone makes grandma's dip and is successful and loves it, let me know. Dip it in a pretzel, a carrot. You know, my go-to was a raw carrot back in the day. Now I like everything, but that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

So when did cooking become something more than like just food for you?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I had an interesting introduction into working in food. I mean, this isn't a new story, but it is a story. Um, I actually started in kitchens as a dishwasher. Um, when I was in college, I went to school in Bloomington at IU Bloomington. Um, and I just got a job at this place because I ate brunch there and I was like, oh my God, this was like the best food I've ever had in my life. And I was like, I need a job anyway, like I'm gonna see if there's any jobs. And they had a dishwashing position. I was like, sure, I've never really done anything like that before, but I had been a lifeguard before that. So I was like, okay. Um and as I was there, like all of these farmers are just coming in the back door bringing this woman all these, all this produce. And I was just like, you're getting this like this? Like you're getting fresh? Like, what? This is mind-blowing to me, all these different people in and out this little door in this little tiny kitchen, um, run by the most amazing, incredible woman in the whole entire world, um, Erica, Erica Yogam. Um, and she would just like take all these things, and I was just mind blown, and she'd make me little bites while she was working because she owned both two restaurants, um, but she worked the line every single day, and she'd make me little bites and like feed me things that I'd never tried. And I was like just mind blown every single day. And I was like, I wanna do this, I wanna do what you're doing, I wanna be you. Um, and it took me like I was a dishwasher for like maybe a year, and I did a bunch of like odds and end jobs for the restaurant, whatever I could do to like get in, whatever I could do. Um, and they'd have me do little prep projects as a dishwasher too, and it made me feel like the coolest person in the world. Um, I'll never forget some of those nights. Like it was like it meant so much to me that they let me like build lasagna, like something dumb like that, you know. Um and so eventually I got onto the line and I like got into it, and I just fell in love so much with like the ability to like connect with people in that way and connect with food. And I never had thought of myself as a creative person before, which is crazy now. Um, but back then I just never found that outlet, I never found anything that made me feel like I could do anything different than anyone else. Um, and I just dove in and I invested in this woman so hard, Erica, um, who is my best friend still to this day. But I would I moved next to the restaurant that I worked at and I would walk there, I would spend hours, hours there, and I'd go home and read, um, read different cookbooks and things that I could like change up because she changed the menu like almost every week based off of what we could get. No, she's crazy. Um and we we did it, and it was just me and her. We didn't have a prep team, it was me and her every day making all the things, pasta, everything from scratch almost every single day. Um and it was just like this grind that I oh my gosh, I had been just searching for. And I was a swimmer before um I went to college and I had messed up my shoulder, so I had kind of messed, stopped doing that. But it was like that similar rush of like just keep going, like keep going into that, and you will see the profit, you will see what comes out of it, and it did and it does for me still to this day. It's like I love it. Like, I should hate it. I feel like by the amount of hours and like bullshit I put up with all the different things throughout the years, but like I still love it so much.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. I love that. Was there a moment in all of that that you'd say like it was a decision you made, or did you kind of just naturally keep moving toward it?

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow, that's a hard question. Well, I was still in school while I was working uh line cooking, but I wasn't really going to class that often. So I would say that there had to be some point, probably when I like very first got hired onto the line and I gotta make my first like charcuterie board. Like this is like I was like the funniest little Garmo station that you ever saw. Um, and we did so much off of this little thing and this little panini press. Um things people could never imagine now, I'm sure. Um but we I would say. Well, okay. I'm changing my answer. I'm sorry. I'm going back on all this. I'm going back on all of this. I'm going back to all of this. A moment that I fully invested. So I helped open up a new restaurant with Erica. Me and her, well, I mean, she opened it, she owned it and everything. But I was her like number one, you know, we redid everything, and the restaurant closed in like nine months, something like that, eight, nine months. And it was one of the most heartbreaking things I'd ever been through because I had invested so much into that place, but it was like very ahead of its time, and also in like a small college town in Indiana, kind of off the beaten path. And it just it wasn't time, it wasn't time for that. And uh, it was so hard for me to accept that in that moment. And that was, I think, 2016, 2017. Yeah. Um, and when that was all over, I was like, I don't know if I can do this again. I honestly like don't know if I can do this anymore. This made me like so depressed. I've never felt so sad. No, um, and so defeated, and like I couldn't do enough. And I went to visit one of my friends in Washington and we went to a music festival and I stayed with him, and we like readed to the floors of his house and just talked a whole lot. And while I was there, I just kept going to the farmer's market or going to the grocery store and just making food for us and making way too much of it. Um and I was like, what am I what am I doing? This is not, I'm giving up on something because it was hard and I had a hard moment rather than like realizing that this is who I am. This is who I am. And so I like came back from that trip and I was like, I have no idea what I'm gonna do in this town because there was not a whole lot for me. Um, but I made it work and it all ended up working out for the best. And uh yeah, so that was that was the moment that I think I fully I was like, because I had the option at that time to kind of turn away, but I was like, no, this is this is me. That was it.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Was that were you out like after college at this point?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't graduate. Spoiler alert. I didn't graduate. I well, because like I said, I invested into the restaurants so much, I just moved next to them and I would spend insane amounts of hours. I mean, I had a key to that place, and I would go in. We were closed one day um and we had brunch at another location. I'd work brunch and then go to the other location by my house and go and cook more or do like projects to help me get started for the next day. Um, and I loved to try to get things on the menu, and so I would be making like trying to perfect everything so Erica would be like, okay, maybe, or like this part, but like different. Um and I think that was also really like shape shaping part of my career, um, because it learned it, it learned it taught me how to collaborate and how to accept other people's opinions of dishes, um, and how to make that amazing. Because for me, all of my most successful things that I've ever helped put on a menu, and I say help because it's always the owner and the chef that like put it in, and they do that with me all the time. And it's always those ones that I get like lots of attention with, and I get everybody's taste that ends up being the best. Um, and she really taught me how to like not take it personal that this isn't right. It might not be right for here, it could be right for something else, but it's just not right for here. Like, change it to this, make it more like this. This is more my style, this is more what I want. And at the end of the day, I think that's all of our jobs as like chefs and cooks is to try to like give all of the chef owners their dream of what they wanted to make for their restaurant, you know?

SPEAKER_01

That's beautiful. It's a lot of life lessons right there.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know how that divulged into that.

SPEAKER_01

I know that wasn't really the question, but no, I just want I love hearing you share. No, it's really helpful. And I think I mean you shared a little bit of this in terms in terms of some like this sharing, but what were I mean, I don't know how you differentiate like once you consider like being in the kitchen, but like what were the early kitchen years for you? Like as you were like paint us a picture of what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was stressful. It was very stressful for me. Um Well, like I said, it was me and my best friend Erica, um, who was the head chef, and she was really trying to get her second restaurant up and going, and it was more of a like not fine dining, but it was kind of like a wine bar situation, and so she really wanted to like make it something special. And so we were doing new menus every week, every other week. And so I would come in, I would get there probably, and we had a lunch service too. And so a lot of times I would get there at like eight, nine, um, work lunch, work the lunch line, and prep for dinner, and then go and work dinner as well. And we didn't have a dinner prep team, it was just me and her. Um, and so I learned how to make pasta, um, literally taught myself how to make pasta, which was bullshit pasta. I'm sorry, Erica, for all of that back in those days. Um, but uh I was like rolling it out, people would be ordering, and I would be like have to go to the back to like roll out more because we didn't have enough. It was, and it's not like it was any crazy big restaurant, but I was just spending a ton of time there. I was spending a ton of time there, um, making a lot of mistakes too, and having to fix a lot of mistakes. Um, I should put that in there. That was a big reason why I was there so much, um, was because I would mess up and then I was like, oh, I have to fix this. I need to make sure I give myself enough time or I knew I was slower at certain things, and I didn't want anything, I didn't want anyone to have any upper hand on me. You know, I already felt like I was working kind of from the bottom, and a lot of people like didn't know if I could do the work that Erica needed me to, and I was more of just like a movable piece, and I was like, no, I am going to show you I can do it. Um and so yeah, I was just I was a chaos mess, but I learned so much.

SPEAKER_01

And you showed you could do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I showed I could do it, and it it taught me a variety of skills because I never limited myself back then, um, and I still don't now, but there was never anything that I was like, oh, I can't do that. I can't make bread, I can't make pasta, I can't make these grilled pickles, I can't cook a protein. Like, I'm ready for it. Give it to me. Let me try it. Like, I want to succeed, and I want to show myself and everyone else that I can do that too. Um, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. No, I I love that, and I you know, I don't know Erica, and I love her already, just knowing that she created such a space. Yeah. I mean, creating a space for you to be able to like be experimenting like that and learning alongside, like that just sounds so powerful and special.

SPEAKER_02

It is, it is, and like now working for Joe, um, he's like Erica and Joe are like on my life people so far up here. Um, and it's really it's like getting to do all those things with her and learn from her in that way, and then getting to work with someone like him, um who functions really similarly, it's it was so beneficial for me, and I just feel so lucky to get that. Um she she is the reason I am the chef I am today. 100%.

SPEAKER_01

That's beautiful. Well, you kind of segue toward it. So, you know, as another mentor, you know, how do you or what do you feel like you've learned working alongside um chef Joe?

SPEAKER_02

This could be a three hour, this is this honestly could be such a long thing.

SPEAKER_01

Um that's okay.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. I mean there's so many things that I could say that he has taught me. Um, number one though, the biggest thing, and this is all kitchen-wise, is just like respect. How to respect other people, respect other people in a work environment, um, make sure that everyone else is giving everyone else respect. Um coming into that kitchen, I was so nervous, um, so nervous about everything. And I had come from running a lot of different restaurants, and I was driving from Indiana to work at Rosemary in Chicago and as a line cook, and I was just like, oh my gosh, am I gonna be, you know, I'm gay, and I'm like, what's the environment gonna kind of be like there? And I had stodged and got such great energy, but I was like, you never really know, you never really know how people are gonna be until you're there. Um and the environment he had created and like made sure everybody was following was just like the warmest, most incredible thing. And it was like, yeah, we love you and accept you. That's just understood. Like, we're here to all work together and be a team. And that for me was just like, whoa, I've never had a leader be like, well, of course, that's just the understood standard. What we're doing here is something special, and we're gonna be making food and good food, and that's what we're all here to do. The only way to do that is to work together, so you all better, you know. Um, which is awesome, which is so, so, so awesome. So I would say respect is the biggest thing um that he's just made sure, like in a in that environment. Um the pasta station at Rosemary, I mean, I love pasta so much, it's always been one of the biggest parts of my life. Um, during COVID, I like started a little like noodle business that I was selling pasta out of my house. Um and it's always been such a big thing for me. But then getting to work at Rosemary and uh Mari, the woman that makes all of our pasta, the most incredible, nicest woman, also in the world. She's um getting to watch her do that and get to watch Joe like work alongside with her, um was spectacular. I mean, it was like so cool to watch people just crank out the most beautiful handmade pasta like it was nothing. And I was like, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that. And um, Joe really gives that same space of like learn whatever you want. Come learn, do it, learn. That's beautiful. Um, and so I did. I mean, obviously, I I knew how to make pasta, but not like that. Um, and I still can't make it like her, don't get me wrong. Um but so that like learning how to make it, but then selling so much pasta in volume and like making things like great like that. I had never like honed a skill so much, like I feel like I've like honed working that noodle station down there. Um so those are like pasta and respect, you know. Same, same hand in hand, yeah. Um I love that I I mean I could say a million and one nice things about him. He's truly, truly like a top-tier human being.

SPEAKER_01

And from the little I've seen, I you know, I agree.

SPEAKER_02

I was a huge fan of Joe. Um, I had eaten at Spiagia um for my birthday. My partner Thomas had taken me to years and years ago um when he was still on Top Chef. That was the first season of Top Chef I ever watched was Joe's season. I was like watching it in real time um with one of the sous chefs from my restaurant. It was my next door neighbor. Um, and so I met Joe then, which so of course we were already like kind of fangirling then. Um, but then when we moved to northwest Indiana during COVID, um, we went to Rosemary and had like the most spectacular dinner of my life. And I was like, I have to be here. Like, I literally want to work here so bad, so so so bad. Um, but our plan was to move to California, and so that wasn't really in the cards to move to Chicago or do anything like that. Um, but we came to the city all the time, obviously, and so we'd go and eat. Um, and this is crazy, but on our like second or third meal, my partner Thomas passed out during our meal. And yeah, and that was the first time he's ever passed out, still to this day, the only time he's ever passed out. Um, and he wasn't drinking or anything, like it was just like random. And I like freaked out, of course, because I was like, you know, uh I'm a big ball of energy anyway, and I'm very empathetic. And so I'm like watching him and I'm like, oh wait, am I gonna pass out? Like, and I was just like, I'm freaking out right now. Um, and it was like 10 o'clock at night too, because back in those days, not that it's easy now, but it was so hard to get a reservation at Rosemary, it was like 9:30 only. Um, and so um luckily there was a doctor there and it was all ended up being fine, but I messaged Joe and I was like, hey, because uh whole, you know, obviously there was a big spectacle, and I was like, Can I like buy the team pizza or something the next day? And I was like, I'm a chef and I know that would be like such a crazy thing to happen. And he's like, no, like don't worry about it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, cool, no big deal. Um, and so we had come back a couple other times to eat, and then my partner Thomas had gotten a job um at the Alenia Group in Chicago while we were still living in Indiana, and I was like, no way, he's front of house, but I was like, no way am I gonna be the one still in Indiana while you are working for Alenia. Um well, he's working for Royce here, but um, like, no way, no way. And so the next day I slid into Joe's DMs and I was like, hey, I really, really, really want to work at Rosemary. Like, is there any anything that I could do? Like, could I come stodge? Da-da-da-da-da. Um, and he was like, Yeah, come in and stod. And that was how it happened. I will because I had lived in Indiana and there's not like a huge food scene, and the only places I had really worked were places that I had already loved, and for like people that I already knew. And so I had never done like culinary agents or anything like that. I didn't know any of that existed at that time, and so I didn't know any of that was even a possibility. Like the only way I knew people asked um were like Instagram, like, oh, we're looking to hire. And so I was like, I'm just gonna do it. And then you did fast forward all this time, and now I'm the executive Sioux chef of Rosemary, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01

That's absolutely I love that. I love so much of that. Thomas is obviously okay since then because I'm holding up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and like I said, I mean, me and him have been together for like 13 years. And so, and we've done millions of things, been to like a billion music festivals and concerts. Like, music is a huge part of our life, and have just lived, you know, we've really lived, and I've never seen him pass out. And all the crazy long, long stents of life that we've done, sitting at Rosemary eating a lamb shoulder, he passed out.

SPEAKER_01

That's sexy.

SPEAKER_02

And they were like, like, we called the ambulance and they said that it was he like aspirated on the sparkling water that we were drinking.

SPEAKER_01

Noted. That couldn't happen.

SPEAKER_02

And I am like the biggest sparkling water drinker of life. Like, we only drink sparkling water at my house. Like, every day we drink sparkling water. So I was like, this isn't anything new. Right. I don't know. It hasn't happened again, so he's all good. Um, okay. You mentioned for Joe too. Oh, he does. Yeah, no, he works at Kartovo. He's a manager at Kartofo.

SPEAKER_01

Cool. I definitely need to do a Chicago trip and just visit all you. Yes. I will. Um, so respect being a part of culture. I hear that loud and clear. And I will say, even hearing you share that as happy and not surprised as I am that you know, that's how Joe would show up. There's the other part of me that's like, how sad that we even have to call that out as a thing to be, right? You know, just of course we accept each other as whatever we are. Um, so I I do appreciate that. And I'm wondering if there's anything else that you think would make, you know, really great, healthy, however you want to say it, kitchen culture from your perspective.

SPEAKER_02

Well, something really, really cool that we do that Joe implemented that I think a lot of people, they don't need to take this exactly as it is, but it's called round table. So on Saturday nights at the end of service, we have a little like we call it round table, but really it's just like we're in the alley or we're like, I don't know. Um, but we get beers out and we buy pizza or we make food or we get burgers or whatever. Um, and you don't have to stay, but um everybody sits in a circle and each person has a chance to talk and talk about their week and talk about anything that was like maybe frustrating or hard for them um or shadow other people's successes um or just something that they want everyone to hear. Um, and we do that every week at the end of a long Saturday service. I mean, Rosemary is a very all the all the restaurants are busy, but Rosemary is such a busy place. Like we'll do like 430 covers and then everybody, 12 line cooks stay afterward until like two in the morning, like talking about things and making sure, you know, it's all good. Um, and I think that is really big for us because it helps kind of ease the tension because it's in a lighter environment rather than in those like really hard-hitting moments. Yeah. Um, and then just calling shit out. Like, if people are being disrespectful, call it out. Like say that's not cool, or like pull them aside and be like, that is not the time. This is not the way you speak to other people. Um, I think it's really easy to just walk by a situation in the kitchen because it's so busy and you feel like you have so much going on, um, and you don't want to be like bogged down by one thing or another. But in my experience, stuff like that boils over. You know, if you don't address the problem, it's just going to be get worse. So anytime I see someone giving some kind of like weird energy to someone else or even just an environment, I always just try to go into it and be like, hey, what's up? And that's something Joe definitely taught me too, to just not be afraid of like addressing a situation. Like if you don't talk about it, you're just speculating. So number one, you could be wrong about what the entire problem is, and you could have the entire scenario wrong. And I hate to like misjudge people in that way. Um and number two, it like I said, it just ends up boiling over and then more things go wrong. And I just want I think it's best to just nip it in the butt.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I think it's clear that there's obviously a safe environment where you know you can do that and still be a team, you know, a functional team, and that that that premise, like that you have that foundation of of trust and safety amongst each other that like allows you to do that.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, you've just mentioned teams so much, and I just want to say, like, my team, and I of course everybody feels this way, but I feel like I have the best team in the whole entire world. Like, this group of people I'm working with right now is so special. Um, my CDC Christine is like also the top. She's so cool and so oh, she's just so amazing. She makes sure that everybody is being kind but also like getting their things done. And so, you know, it just it always stems down. And I think because we've all instilled that, it's really easy for the team underneath us to be like, oh yeah, this is just what the expectation is. It all is trickled down. Like we respect each other, our chef team is super strong, um, and we communicate a lot, and it just sets that kind of standard, I think. And our whole team is friends, you know what I mean? They hang out after work. Um, a lot of them, like, all of them, you know, or they're like in the alley. I'm like done doing all of my stuff. It's been like an hour and a half after service. I'm going to leave and I'm exhausted. And then here they are out in the alley drinking beer, and I'm just like, how do you still want to be with each other right now? How do you guys still possibly want to be with each other right now? I love that. Um, but it's so beautiful, so it's really nice um that it works that way there too. Um, and that people feel well, because I think it brings those kinds of people in too. Like it brings in the right people when you set up that environment. Um, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it also allows people to, I mean, right or right fit or not, like people become end up belonging to a space like that when you can bring yourself to it. You know, I think so many people often hold back because they're not allowed to show themselves and who they are. So I we talked about this a little bit earlier, you and I, about you know, what Enroot's been trying to do and just the power of food. And so you're talking about round table, and I'm like, or is that what you called it round table? Yeah, round table. Yeah. It's like you just named it, like you're around a circle and you're having a meal of some sort, whether it's pizza or burgers or beer, you know, whatever. And you're able to have these harder conversations, you know. So I think it just really like struck me as uh there's there's something to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I can't believe I didn't correlate that when we had spoken like a second ago, and I was just like, oh my gosh, as you were saying, and I was like, that is literally it. That is literally it. Because it just it does, it soothes the situation, you know what I mean? It puts everybody at ease. You're well, you said it. It eases your nervous system when you're eating and it makes things like a little more digestible, if you will.

SPEAKER_01

I see what you did there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I love, I love stuff like that. I'm so corny. I'm so corny.

SPEAKER_01

No, I love that. Um, so thank you for sharing that. I like I just you really painted a picture of of what the culture there is and what y'all value. And I think that says a lot. It's not just a meal, you know, it's it's so much more that you I I want to be a part of just like from afar. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's like I don't know if I'm supposed to say this because well, who knows who would actually of the incoming people see this. So maybe I don't know. You'll decide what you want to say with this. But um, the way we choose our team, I wasn't sure if I was gonna say this, but I will. Um, the way we choose our team is that the line cooks choose who comes, like who gets hired. So on their stage day, um, all of the line cooks have to give a thumbs up. If even one person gives a thumbs down, then we don't hire them. Um, and that has been since the beginning. Um so even if we like really love someone like the chef team, we're like, oh my god, they're so talented, we need them. Uh the line cooks give them a thumbs down, then it's like, okay, well, it's just not gonna work. Um, and sometimes it's been heartbreaking, but other times it's like it's made sense. And that's I think how we've continued to keep such a really amazing team is because they set themselves up and they know they're responsible for it. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

And their voice matters to y'all on the executive team, which I think is that says a lot too. And so not being in the industry is that and you can tell me whether or not this is something that like is it standard to do that or is it feel special in this kitchen?

SPEAKER_02

No, that is so special, absolutely not. I've never heard of anyone else doing that. I mean, and who knows again, because this is my first like really big, you know, Chicago situation, but um I cannot imagine that anyone else does that. Um I can't imagine anyone else does that. Um, but we like to we like to take in a lot of people from like culinary school too. Like we've had a lot of interns um and then they stay and then they stay in the company. Because I mean for me, and this is true for a lot of the people that work for us and with me, um We like want these next kids just to be better than us. You know what I mean? So it's so fun for me to really get to invest in these people that are so excited. Um because like in Indian I just worked the talent pool so I don't want to say low, but it's so broad. I'll say broad um and not um very like populated in one area or another, at least where I was. And so then getting to come and work for people and have people work for me that actually want to learn and care about what they're doing means so much to me. And I'm like, if these people are gonna give this, I have to make sure I'm giving something to them and that they that they feel like they can grow and become me and become better than me. That's all I want. Like I love my life and I love the opportunities that I get, and I think there's so more to come for me, but I want more to even come for them. You know, I want them to be in my position like five years from now. Um and I see that for so many of them, and it's like amazing and so special to be a part of.

SPEAKER_01

That's exciting. That must feel really exciting, especially knowing that like you are mentored. It's like you are now giving able to give back the same way. That's really cool. So you mentioned music festivals earlier. I love music as well. And we've also been to food festivals. So this can be kind of any which way you want to define it. But you know, having been in those types of festival environments, which can be a lot, um what's it like for you to kind of move between that world and the kitchen? Like, is there other similarities? Are there differences? Like, what do you get out of each?

SPEAKER_02

Um, well, that's funny. Um, because I love chaos. I love like lots of people. I love to socialize and like be really active. Um and I love music. I mean, I think music is there's a soundtrack to life, you know. I always kind of have a song playing in the back of my head. Um but just events that bring people together, food, music, it's so special to me. Um, but things like that are my recharge, you know. Um, like being around so much energy like that and seeing other people that remind me that there's other amazing people in this world. Um I will say, similarly to the kitchen, I live a bougier life than I once did at a lot of that stuff. So like I get VIP at a lot of those things now and do like, you know, glamping. Um similarly, I don't have to like stand in front of the hearth all the time every day and be crazy working over pants. But it's a necessary thing for me because I I need energy. I need to be like resupplied with other people's like everything. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Some people get their energy from others, and some you know really are internal in that way.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I need I need it, but then afterward I'm gonna like shut down for like two days and just like sleep and not talk to anyone to completely recharge. But for those days I'm there, I take full advantage. I'm a big liver. Like if I'm doing something, I'm doing it and I wanna like you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I totally I I've sensed that from you. So one thing, you know, like I mentioned earlier, too, I've noticed about you is how you show up with people, and it really feels grounded and like really easy to be around you. Where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_00

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02

I think I have been so lucky in this life to have such an amazing group of friends and family that have just made me feel supported. And there is like, you know, coming out as gay, which I mean no big shocker really, but for so long it was, for so long it was, and um, it was something I really hit about myself, and so when I finally came out, and then like I kind of came out in phases, I feel like, to people. Um, and when I finally felt like I could be me and fully like accept myself, I had a lot of healing to do, and I had a lot of like things that I need to like look back on. And that moment was so big for me because I was like, who do you want to be now? Because you were putting on this facade for so long. Like, who are you? Be who you want to actually be now. And so when I really started to be myself in that way, I felt even more support from those people and felt even more connections with people, and that's what made me feel good. And so I know that like in my life, I want to have those meaningful, deep conversations with people. I want to like connect because that's where that's where you get something, you know, that's how you learn, that's how you grow. Um people can surprise you all the time. So I I just go into it with a really open mind because a million different kinds of people have taught me a million different kinds of lessons.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. No, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. What do you think food or making food or you know, however you want to frame this, allows you? So, what does it allow you to express that maybe nothing else does? You mentioned you didn't think you were a creative until you know you started cooking. But how does it let you express yourself?

SPEAKER_02

I am so ADD, ADHD, all the things, you know, it's all a spectrum, of course. Um but I got diagnosed like well, not diagnosed, I shouldn't say that. I I have been put on medication for a variety of things. Maybe don't put that in there. Um, but I feel so crazy in my brain a lot of times and have always. And so food is something for me, it like slots, you know. I have four different things going on, but my brain can like do all four of those things. Like it's like thinking about all of them, and that feels good. It like itches something that I don't normally get itched. Um, and so that is for me is like invigorating. Then when I do something that tastes really good or I'm really proud of or looks beautiful, I'm like, oh, I'm really proud of myself, and then I get to give that to someone, or which most of the time is my partner Thomas, but or any of the people I'm making food for at the restaurant. Um, but I get to like watch that moment too, and so all of those for me are like boom, boom, boom. Like it's so good for me, you know? It's just so good for me. Um, it it does all the things, it hits all the spots.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What do you feel like people are? I mean, this is kind of like a general question, but like people are hungry for right now.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh. I think people are hungry for peace. Um no. Um people are people It's not incorrect. Yeah, I'm hungry for peace. I'm hungry for peace. Um wow, that's a hard question. Um, I think people just want real food, and I think some of the like more facade things are a little less on the table nowadays. People are more into um, I think more of a simple style. Maybe that's just me. Maybe that's just me, but um I am not as like drawn to like big tasting menu things like I used to be. I think people want more of that like casual kind of situation where they can all connect. Um so I think that just like the food not being stuffy. Can I say that? I think that's the answer. Just like not being stuffy for no reason. Great answer.

SPEAKER_01

What would the reason be for being stuffy to be stuffy? Um, well, yeah, and I think that there's just like I think I'm gonna be nice.

SPEAKER_02

I think that um people have this whole uh idea that they have to be the most grand and do the most like uh innovative things to be the best and really make their name, right? But I don't think that's true anymore. Um I think that people just respect other people that work really hard and make amazing food. So it's like if you do that, then great, and that all comes together. But if you're putting like a moose on a foam with some smoke underneath a chip that adds caviar and gets truffle shaved on top, then it's like I'm not interested. I just don't care. I don't think that's like gonna be the bite of my life.

SPEAKER_01

You know? It's funny you say that. I was just reading an article um about however many people were asked what country or what like cuisine is like your favorite, or it was something along the lines of like what meal, you know, something like that. And apparently the majority said it Italian and it was like pasta. And it's just like what is the simplest? You just have a great bite and you just know you're having a great bite. It's not fancy, it's just like homemade and earthy and um homey and yeah, it's a cozy comfort food in a lot of ways. And so you name you say that, and I'm like, yeah, I get it. When I'm like I'm tired or I'm sad or I'm whatever, I'm like, what do I go to? Always like a pasta dish.

SPEAKER_02

So that warms my heart. Well, I my initial thought was pasta when you said that.

SPEAKER_01

Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, it is because I think for me, that's like I think pasta's cool, but I always think pasta's cool. So that's always like, oh, I need to think of this like a little bit deeper because pasta is just always gonna be cool to me. I think people love pasta, and you can like, I don't know. I love that a lot of people said Italian. I wanna I don't know that I've seen that. I wanna do whatever you're gonna do. Yeah, I was like, I'm a big reader.

SPEAKER_01

I'll definitely send that to you. So let's ask a couple questions before we kind of close. Um, we're almost there. So is there anything you think you know people don't I mean, there's a lot of things people don't see, but what are some things that people don't see about what it takes to create this experience that they have in a restaurant like Rosemary?

SPEAKER_02

I actually think the thing that people don't um realize, and that is one of the hardest things, at least for me, um, and maybe that's because this is not my like forte, but it's like managing all of the like equipment-y stuff and all of your like day-to-day appliances and the French top and the oven and the dishwasher and the drain system and all of those things that you have, like, you know, we have four dishwashers in the restaurant um and polishing pit, and it just it's crazy the amount of things that go into just like running the day-to-day, and like just a couple days ago we had a buyout, so our friend's shop wasn't on, so I like cleaned out the friend shop and like lifted up the thing and was like chipping all of it away, and I was like laughing to myself a little bit, and I was just like, the things that people wouldn't think are my job or that I'm doing, but that I want to make sure are done right. Um it just stuff like that, I think, is really, really hard. I want to just be cooking, I just want to be cooking. Um, and then dealing with other people's emotions too, and handling people and handling schedules and things like that. Um it's such a busy place. Like being down one player can like be huge. It could be detrimental for the night, um, which we never let it be. But I think those are the two things that people don't see or think about in a restaurant that are actually really, really challenging to deal with.

SPEAKER_01

I can tell you I've never thought about all the equipment and all the things that you might have to do. I've never thought about that until you said it. So correct.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, like your uh our oven went down um last year. Well, maybe it hasn't been a full year, but our oven went down and we, you know, we bake bread, we do all of these things every single day. We I mean the oven gets lots of use, obviously. And so we were having luckily we have other outlets, so we were baking stuff at the other places, and then like we have a car and we'd like drive it back and forth, um, which now we do anyway, actually. Um, so that's kind of funny, but um, it was a true tragedy not having that. And then our bubbler, our pasta bubbler busted a couple months ago, um, the bottom of it. And so then we had to cook just like on a big pot, um Friday, Saturday service, no bubbler until the people could come and we got a new one.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and so it's just like things like that that you're like, oh and no one will ever know because they're gonna have a great experience coming and eating and did this thing.

SPEAKER_02

They never knew. And they never knew. There was once, um, so we have this big hearth inside the restaurant that Joe had custom built. It's like the coolest thing ever. Um, and our hood vents went out one night, and Joe literally went to the back alley and got like two Weber grills and cooked the entire night, all the proteins and everything on these big grills outside. Excuse me, oh my gosh. They brought all of the food in from the outside, and I don't know actually if I should say that, but um, yeah, he was grilling all the outside and they brought it all in, and I was like, because we don't close and we don't 86 anything. That's like a big Joe thing. Like we have everything. Like, I'll go make pasta downstairs in the basement. Like if we're running out. It's like that is what it is. Um, and so there's a lot.

SPEAKER_01

It's a lot, yeah. And you can let me know what you think needs to stay in or not. Like I love hearing it for me, and I'm happy for it to not go past me, but also like this is awesome to hear inside it.

SPEAKER_02

In my mind, I was like, oh, I wonder if we could get in trouble for that, but I don't think so. It's been it's been many moons since and we're fine. So I think it's okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, okay. So outside of the kitchen, what would you say is shaping you lately?

SPEAKER_02

Mmm, that's a good question. Um outside of the kitchen. Does the grocery store count? I I love going to the grocery store. That's like one of my favorite pastimes, but I feel like that's um included in the kitchen. Um wow. Something that I well this isn't really anything new, but it's something that I have to do. And I love to go to the art museum or any kind of museum in general. Um, I love art and I love going to things like that. Um it's a nice just like music festivals and stuff like that. That too, I guess that's the same thing. Or concerts. I go to a lot of concerts. Um stuff like that really rejuvenates me. Um it brings life back into me. I I love seeing other people appreciate things too, kind of what I touched on earlier. Um I love seeing other good people around me enjoying other good things, and it reminds me that that is around, you know? Because there's so much scary and bad people and bad energy that's like promoted throughout our lives. So then when you're in person with other people that aren't that way, it's such a great reminder of like this is just a facade and just an energy that people are putting out, putting out here, like there's wonderful human beings all around that are ready to connect and put good energy out into this world. Um that keeps me going.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Just a reminder of how interconnected we all are too. And yeah, yeah. So let's end with this question, kind of to that point, Chef Josh. Um, what does belonging mean to you today?

SPEAKER_02

It means everything to me today. It means everything to me today. Um because, like I've said, Rosemary has been the most incredible, like safe haven dream come true place for me in the entire world. Um I get to go into a place every day, front and back of house, surrounded by people that love, accept me, promote me, make me feel amazing um by being myself and by being me. And um I kind of touched on this earlier too, is just that like I'm from a really small town in Indiana, and I had a wonderful childhood, don't get me wrong. Um I had a wonderful childhood, but I was always different and wasn't ever sure that I was going to be able to like fully be myself, and if I would, I would never be accepted in that way. That couldn't ever cross my mind. So to be able to go somewhere so much of my time and be accepted there for who I am and be able to put my energy into something and feel like it's being accepted and creates that culture as well is means more to me than like having a dish on the menu for three years. You know what I mean? Being able to feel safe and accepted is so cool. It's such an amazing feeling. And if anyone doesn't have that, I encourage them to find it.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. So thank you for being here with us today. I just really appreciate you sharing your story, your perspective, lessons, you know, life lessons learned. It's been really, really meaningful. So thank you.