Existential Thread
The architecture of human belonging because it’s cool to care and fun to give a fuck. Prepare to get out of your journal and into your life.
Existential Thread
What if your brain is different, not wrong?
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What if the reason you felt different growing up wasn't because something was wrong with you but because the world was simply built for a brain that isn't yours?
In this episode Caitlin and Chantelle are joined by Rachel Moore - systems thinker, people & culture leader, and universe builder - for an honest and generous conversation about neurodivergence, identity clarity, and what it actually means to understand how your brain works.
We get into why so many people, women especially, are only now getting the language for something they've felt their whole lives.
- Why the diagnostic system was built around a very specific person, and why that matters.
- What the difference is between using neurodivergence as an explanation versus an excuse.
- Why knowing one neurodivergent person's needs does not mean you know all of them.
- Why the so-called accommodations that neurodivergent people need at work aren't really accommodations at all - they're just better design for everyone.
There is a runaway refrigerator in this one. There are blocks stacked sideways. There is an important distinction between inclusion and meaningful accommodation. And there is Rachel's answer to our closing question that might just reframe the entire ‘let-them’ conversation.
This work is for anyone who has ever felt like their brain was wrong rather than just different. And for everyone who wants to show up for other people.
If your brain is tickled and you want to sift a little deeper or practice imperfectly. We have more resources for this episode right here.
If anything in this episode stirs something big, please bring it to a friend, a therapist, or someone who loves you.
Made with intention by Meus Studios.
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Hello, welcome to Existential Thread, where we explore the architecture of belonging because it's cool to care and it's fun to give a fuck. And before I introduce you to today's very special guest, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which we chat, learn, and share. And welcome any First Nations people listening into this episode. So today, our guest is a very special friend of mine and a former colleague. She is one of the most thoughtful and intentional people that I know. She is a keen, she's a keen observer of the world around her. She has an incredible sense of self and she absolutely takes an immense responsibility for the way that she moves through the world. So welcome to Existential Thread, Rachel Moore.
SPEAKER_06I'm so happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we are genuinely so excited for this conversation.
SPEAKER_06I'm honored to be your first guest, also. So snaps to you guys for that.
SPEAKER_00We wouldn't have it any other way. We wouldn't have it any other way. And we're gonna actually start with a random one for you, and then we'll get into the specifics of why we brought you into the episode. Uh, we have a tradition of helping people settle for us. What is the holy grail chip selection? Like crisps. Do you have a favorite crisp?
SPEAKER_06It's a chip question. Fun fact about me, I'm allergic to potatoes. So many chips are off. Wait, how did I knew tomatoes? But I did not do I know potatoes? It's like a family of vegetables. I have a nightshade allergy. So peppers, yeah. Um I know. Um so for me, I love a um uh have you had pickle chips? Yes. Okay, so they're like a pickle chip of like, yes, like a real pickle, but also like someone invented like a dehydrated pickle that is like crunchy, like a chip. It's like a pickle chip. And it's like a dehydrated cucumber. It tastes like a pickle. Anyway, it's delicious. I've done the um back when I coddy potatoes, I loved like a crisp with like creme frage and caviar on it, and I'll do that on a pickle chip, and it's like so good out of this world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean for our listeners, Rachel was also a chef in a former life. So of course she's got chips have caviar and crème fraîche on them.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna say salt and vinegar and and not and not apple cider vinegar, you know, like this is the level in which we are playing at, and I think you have just raised the bar right here to uh a level that I don't know if anyone can and ever top. So we may never ask this question again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Tradition starts and stops pretty quickly. No, we love. Oh, we love this. But yes, we have brought you in for a very specific topic today around neurodivergence, and we knew we wanted to have this conversation with you specifically because as I mentioned earlier, you are a very perceptive person. You also have the lived experience of being neurodivergent, and you have an immense ability to examine an issue from every different angle. You and you have a huge amount of experience working through the relationship between individuals and systems. And I'm excited to get into that part of the conversation today. But it is going to be a nuanced conversation, and you love and live in uh in a nuanced conversation. And so we're going to get into it. Before we even started this episode, I sent you an email around neurodivergence and identity formation. And you rightly came back to me and said, I think it's identity clarity more than it is identity formation. And so, to start us off, what has been the most clarifying thing for you when it came to understanding more about neurodivergence and how it informed your identity?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, it's such a big question. I appreciate that you were responsive to the clarity concept because I really think that's what it is. And I think for me, it was really that like I always felt like I was different and I always felt like that was wrong. And so understanding that like different doesn't mean wrong, it just means different. And so, like, there's no wrong way to be a person, there's no wrong way to uh exist in this world and take in information and output things, like there is no wrong way to do that. Um, and so once you know that you can stop centering. Like, I have to figure out how to make myself like other people and more like I have to figure out what I need in order to be the person that I want to be and how to communicate my needs to other people so that they can help.
SPEAKER_01You said that you always felt different. I'm curious, when is your first memory of feeling different?
SPEAKER_06Oh god, I mean, um I don't know. I feel like when I was growing up, I just like always had my nose in a book and was just like always in like a fictional universe. And I think it was just because my brain was bored with the things that were in front of me, and like I just felt like there was like such a big world out there, and I wanted to try to get my brain into it, and I loved like I don't know, I just I loved stories and different universes, and that's how I knew that I was different because other people were interested in like sitting down and like watching a movie or playing a game, and I was like, let's invent a universe.
SPEAKER_01And if you're not gonna do it the way that I want to do it, or like if it's not gonna be adequate and I'm gonna be bored, then I would rather just have my nose in a book and do it on my own.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Or like I was like writing books when I was a child. I was like writing my it's funny, my grandma was a kindergarten teacher and she had my books in her classroom because I was like literally writing and drawing books when I was five, seven years old. Like, who's doing that? Do we does that make you a published author?
SPEAKER_00Like if it's actually if the book is displayed in places, yes.
SPEAKER_06Hundreds of maybe thousands of small children in Wisconsin have read my stories over the last four years.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible. That is so incredible. I would actually dive one day. Someone listening to this pod is like, I'm from Wisconsin and I read a book written by Rachel Moore.
SPEAKER_06If you read a book called The Runaway Refrigerator, which was about a refrigerator that got sad because the family started eating out all the time. So the refrigerator ran away, and then the family brought their groceries home one day because they decided to make dinner, but then the fridge wasn't there, and then they realized they really needed that refrigerator. Oh my god, asked it to come home, and then it came back home, and then everybody had a great dinner and a big happy family.
SPEAKER_01That was amazing. How did they find the fridge? How did they know how to communicate with the fridge?
SPEAKER_02They walked around the neighborhood calling its name. What was the fridge's name? I have so many questions. I don't remember. I don't remember. I'm so someone someone from Wisconsin from this classroom has to tell us the name of this fridge because I think that story is genius.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of a laid and nuanced story, you have really packed a lot into this fridge metaphor.
SPEAKER_06Truly, yeah. I'm like, as a tiny child, maybe with my neurodivergent brain, I was just trying to make sense of things by writing these little books. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01So many, there's so many things when you look back in with your adult lens and your adult eyes and brain, and you just think, whoa, was I okay? I remember writing stories when I was like six about a girl who would have um, who would go walkabouts in her dreams and have episodes of psychosis and wake up in places where she doesn't remember being. And I think about this now, being a young child, like thinking back and being a young child writing these stories. I was like, who, how did I know these things? What was I who let me read content about this? Mum, I have questions.
SPEAKER_00I have questions, but also just how perceptive we are, so young, and how much you are observing the world and absorbing things, and which is why we've talked in other episodes as well, around just actually how young conditioning or different things can start to be absorbed into your into your little little baby conscious consciousness, conscience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The runaway fridge.
SPEAKER_03The runaway fridge, I think that's a great way to think about how did you know you were different when you were younger?
SPEAKER_01I wrote about a runaway fridge and would write lots of different stories.
SPEAKER_00But actually, as a mutual colleague of ours would say Rachel and Tol and I are on the same page, if the world read more fiction, Tac Anderson, the world would be a happier place.
SPEAKER_06I agree, I agree.
SPEAKER_00Kinker.
SPEAKER_01Before we dive into the rest of the conversation, though, I think it is important to actually describe what we mean when we say neurodivergence. Um, can you explain the term for anyone who's new to it or yeah, share your experience of it?
SPEAKER_06I can. And I actually have an analogy that I think helps a lot of people, so I'll use that here, which is um our brains are like a stack of blocks. And in a neurotypical brain, the stack is just like one block on top of the other, full connections, all the like expected and typical ways of um, you know, things connecting, and that's why that's neurotypical. And in a neurodivergent brain, the blocks are stacked, but they're all different. Some might be sideways and some might be this way, and um, some might have really long connections in one place and have really short connections in the other place, and that accounts for the variety, like the myriad ways that neurodiversity shows up, and that it's not one thing. It's a huge umbrella, you know, and what might be a really strong connection for one person might be a really weak connection for another. Um and for me, a big part of my neurodivergency is like uh, you know, ADHD uh dyspraxia dyscalculia is like a big part for me. So my blocks are not tightly connected around like sequencing, time, um, math calculation, those sorts of things. Um, but and that's where it feels really hard for me. But the blocks around like my systems thinking and how I see like people and structures, um, and those types, like those are tight. I feel like those blocks are probably right on top of each other. Um, you know, the pattern recognition stuff, like that's all um super, super clear for me. And so I think that's an analogy that tends to help people understand a little bit more about the difference. It's like a neurotypical is not like you're not bad because you're neurotypical, you're just your your brain is built in the anticipated way. And in a neurodivergent way, it is the unanticipated.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think also in that, the world is built more likely for someone with the typical structure. It's assumed that everyone has the typical structure rather than assuming that there's variation. Has that been your experience too? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. And in some ways, the systems are designed to simplify. So if you think about a learning in a school curriculum, the immediate desire in the past has been to standardize. And so that has all the way back from the way that you learn as a child, the very system has been designed to try to put people through a single path as a way to move a society through and move people through systems. And so you can see how we got there, but you can also see where the impetus is to change.
SPEAKER_01And also to rank, rank your skills, you know, ranking your skills in certain areas and deciding who's gifted and who's not, and therefore what opportunities are available to them. If all of our measuring sticks are for a certain type of person, we miss out on all of that wonderful connective tissue that we like to say of disparate topics. You being able to like boop, boop, boop, boop, and be like, oh, this thing is connected to this thing all the way over there in this way that people wouldn't typically see. And that's such a beautiful skill. But I feel like we're I'm taking this elsewhere.
SPEAKER_06No, it's okay. I wanted to say, you know, I've heard you guys talk on the pod about like, you know, the former gifted kid to anxious adult pipeline. And like, I think that is so indicative of how damaging standardization can be in environments, like early educational environments, especially. Of like, if you're an outlier from the standard, then you're kind of parsed out and put in this other program or um given additional tools. Like, what if we just assumed that everyone needed different tools and that we had a way to assess that on a more individual basis? Um, how cool would that be? That wouldn't probably wouldn't necessarily prepare kids for um capitalism quite as easily, which really is the bull of the educational system, but that's a different conversation for another podcast.
SPEAKER_04So um oh my gosh, I love how neatly that just got plunked from there. Yes. It was funny.
SPEAKER_01As you were talking about that, I instantly got transported to my grade four class where I couldn't figure out how to tell time. I couldn't figure out how to read a clock. I I was excelling in so many other areas, and it was like a really big surprise to the teacher that she was like, you don't know how to read a clock and tell the time. I was like, I I just don't get it. And I was singled out in that moment, and I can still remember it from grade four. Mrs. Price. She was lovely in many ways, but this time I was just like, no one, I don't know if everyone anyone ever sat down and taught me how to read a clock. And also now that you're doing it, I still don't get it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I have a similar memory. I remember when I was five, I was reading at like a third grade level, but I couldn't tie my shoes, and no one understood why I could do the one thing, but I couldn't do the other. And I remember just being so confused by it because everyone was just like, just tie your shoes. Like everyone can tie their shoes. Like, what's wrong with you? And I was just like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Why tie my shoes when I could have Velcro straps? Yeah. Because get me some different shoes.
SPEAKER_05Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, right now it's Y2K is the trend is Velcro back, and is it Velcro back? Love it. Love it. I think if we continue that thread though, around the kind of schooling and the idea of learning and where you learn things.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00How we learn things in today's world, then, is a lot of that is through the internet, it's through social media, uh, and we're consuming things in a very different way to where we were before. And we've spoken in a previous episode about the hypotherapization of language and the impact of that socially. What's your take on this in the context of neurodivergence and internet self-diagnosis?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I mean, self-diagnosis is super valid on or offline. Um, I think, especially in the US, where we have like systemic barriers to care, uh, you know, and globally, we're, you know, I think marginalized communities are hesitant to increase the amount of intersectional labeling that uh is coming their way. So that's very understanding, uh, understandable. But I think in the like weaponization therapy, hypertherapization of language, whatever term you want to use for it, the one that really gets me in online culture is when it goes from instead of it being an explanation, it's used as an excuse. So someone who identifies as neurodivergent might say, like, I can't attend that event, or I'm not going to attend that event because it isn't going to accommodate my sensory needs, and I'm gonna, you know, be overstimulated, and that's not gonna be a good environment for me, versus someone who's like, and so over stimmied, because I heard I had a little bit of the tism from TikTok. So I can't go, so I'm in a bed rot. Like that's not that's not the same thing, right? Um, and so I think that's for me, like there's there's a real divergence there.
SPEAKER_01It's giving the OCD for people who are just particular.
SPEAKER_06Yes, exactly. Or like ADD because I'm so distracted. It's like, yeah, bipolar behavior because I can't make up my mind, you know, it's like that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00And a little bit to your point of the so what or the therefore is a little bit how you see uh attachment styles being used. I have an anxious attachment style, therefore I need to this done now, as opposed to I have an anxious attachment style, and therefore I understand that this is how I can react in this type of situation, and this is therefore what tools I need to put in the toolbox so that I can handle different situations differently, as opposed to then just putting on I have this label or identity, and therefore I expect the world to meet me differently.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Yeah, it's like when your personal accountability to your needs and your ability to explain them versus like it just being uh what's the word I'm looking for? Sorry, one of my things is that I lose the words that I want sometimes and I go to reach them off of the tree of words in my brain and they're not to be found. Um it's gone. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00It's all yeah, yeah. And so then with the self-diagnosis part, I what is the helpful part is just access to the information around some of these topics to even know, and especially again, if we go back to that high functioning, there are so many things that people are learning through seeing this content that they're having these moments of, oh my gosh, that would actually explain so much.
SPEAKER_06Right, right. And that's why I think self-diagnosis is so valid in someone's ability to start to enter neurodivergence spaces. So if you're starting to like see content on the internet about neurodivergence and you're like, wow, that might be me. That really feels like me. You don't have to figure that out in a vacuum. That's an invitation to start joining those spaces and meeting other people and seeing like, do we have the same shared lived experience? Do I feel I can function differently in this space? Am I learning more about myself by engaging with um, you know, this new group of people? Um, yeah, there's so much learning to be done there. And if you keep yourself out of those spaces until you have a formal diagnosis, then you might not get the opportunity to learn those things.
SPEAKER_01I can imagine someone sitting at home, uh scrolling through their social media feeds and finding this video where someone explains something that they experience recognition from. And then thinking about entering those spaces could feel this sense of like, oh, but it it's I'm not enough to be in there yet, or like I don't have enough of this to enter into those spaces. And so what would you say to someone who is maybe like a little bit curious and would maybe apply some of these things to themselves, but feels a little bit hesitant because they don't feel like they have enough, quote unquote, of the qualities or the impact on their life isn't as great.
SPEAKER_06Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think when we talk about it being a spectrum, that's what we mean, right? And like uh that can show up in a lot of ways too. There could be parts of your neurodiverse identity that are maybe you would just consider them quirks, and there could be parts that feel like legitimate disabilities, and all of that is valid across the spectrum, I think.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing there as well is just like there's no spectrum police that are gonna come and tell you, like, you're not enough of this, you can't sit with us type of situation. Whereas I do feel like, I don't know, as someone who has questioned it myself, there's been a little bit of that in me, expecting like I can yeah, feeling like the impact isn't enough, I guess. And so, yeah, I just think hearing you say that is just like, yeah, who who's gonna tell me that it's not enough? It's up to me to explore and decide and explore the tools.
SPEAKER_06Totally. And you're not gonna find your diagnosis in community, right? But you might understand yourself better and you might um see parts of yourself in other people that you haven't maybe seen reflected back to you before. And that could be incredibly validating and that could help you figure out what some of your accommodations may be, and it might direct you towards a diagnosis if that's something that you care to seek.
SPEAKER_00And it does expand the thinking beyond some of the stereotypes as well of what it might look like. And I think there's almost been this ADHD trope, for lack of a better word, that it's this, and again, we're gonna have some discussion about gender notes, but it's gonna be this boy in the classroom who can't control himself. And it was almost like other types of mental health issues that they have this negative stigma attached to them. And so for some people, that might create a barrier to this of there is that sort of negative connotation, and or to your point to Chantal is oh, I'm sensing it, but I still actually feel like there's so many parts of my life that are going well, and where does that start and stop? I'm interested in your thoughts around stereotypes and how they've evolved and where we want that conversation to remove some of that stigma almost. Or to the extent that you even see that that's still here today. I'm not sure I know how to answer that, Caitlin. Yeah, I mean that's okay. We I think that was something that for me when I started to See that content, and I thought, and it really started to explain a lot. And I started to talk about that with people that know me really well. And they sort of were, well, that doesn't make sense because you didn't struggle at school. And you got the grades, and you can, you know, it was almost like it was at odds with other things that they believed that would make up that. And so, and I had to say, yeah, but remember XYZ? Think about how hard that was for me. I was crying on the floor just to get that thing done. And yes, the outcome of that thing was great because I was talented in that area, but the path to get that was excruciating in many ways. And so I think, you know, even when you're talking to people that know you, they can still be some attachment to some of these other things. And so I think to your point, it's just getting more into spaces um where there's more conversation around that. There's more people having different types of experiences that can start to yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And I think the stereotypes are broken down when we talk for real about what we experience, right? And it's not just like, um, you know, oh, I'm gonna be, you count on me to be late because I have ADHD. And it's more like, let me talk actually talk to my friends about like my challenges with time management and time blindness. And let's, you know, make a plan with the friend group that like if you need me to be there, we're gonna make a calendar invite. And just, you know, like those types of things is that can really start to go beyond the stereotype to the actual like problem solving and involving your community in solving those problems with you. Because also in a friend group, like people talk about that, you know, the cost of community's inconvenience. It's not inconvenient to me to make an accommodation for my friend who is neurodivergent. If you need something from me, like if you need my house to be sent free when you come because that is overstimulating to you, great. I'm not gonna burn my incense for three days before you come. That's not inconvenient. I love you. Like, I'm just gonna do that.
SPEAKER_01That is so good. I have always thought it would be too much for me to ask that. Caitlin used to love candles before she went scent-free in her house and everything. And there was this one candle on her table that I could have thrown out the window if I if I was allowed to. I never would have. And I don't think I even told you this, Caitlin. I think one day, towards the end, um, it was the one, like that big round one that just sat on your dining room table. It always got up my nose and made me so discombobulated. But but then also I was just slightly allergic to your house in general because of the dust. Anyway, but I think that's such a beautiful thing to share around, it's not inconvenient for me to support you in those ways. And when you're in true friendships, when you really care about the people around you, these little things, if we have reactions that are like, oh, I can't believe they need me to do this, or oh, like you're bothered about it. Imagine going through the world, being bothered by all of those things all the time and not being able to do anything about it. But with your closest friends, you can say, Hey, when I sit on your couch, I need to put a rug down because this the material of your couch scratches, like itchy and it distracts me and I can't concentrate.
SPEAKER_00And then the friend, every time you come over, can make sure that you're on the couch that's comfy or moves the blankets around and and they really Exactly, and also the thing in that where my head is going is people actually like caring for people. We're inherently missing the part, but when you do that, you feel people actually feel good for giving, for helping other people, for for being thoughtful. And so when that person comes over and they've put those little touches in place, and obviously we're using a specific example and we're going in on this candle and blanket example, but you are okay, this feels good to make sure when this person comes into my home that they have a really positive experience as a friend of mine. And so I so oftentimes we assume that the helping is burdensome, but actually helping feels incredibly generous and fulfilling for for people too. And so we we're taking that opportunity from them to be part of it.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_00Little invitations, little invitations both ways. So if if that's all in the context of then more self-diagnosis, self-inquiry, there still is a clinical component to actually you can, if this is something that you are and curious about, strongly identify with wherever you sit on that spectrum. You've gone through that process yourself. Are there parts of that that to the extent for whatever whatever you feel comfortable talking about, but are you able to talk us through some parts of that kind of clinical diagnosis process and what you learned through going through that that's been most meaningful to you now?
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I mean, I think going after a clinical diagnosis is obviously a very personal choice. And I feel like, you know, everyone has to decide for themselves what's the kind of like benefit analysis for me, the effort benefit analysis for me doing this. And then back to my previous point about it not necessarily being accessible to everyone, but you know, it can increase the options that are available to you, and it can also increase the amount of resources that are available to you, and that can be incredibly helpful, especially if you're maybe working in the corporate world where, you know, there's not just high expectations, but consistent high expectations that, you know, you might need a little external support in order to be able to meet either through understanding your accommodations by working with a provider or through um medication or therapies or, you know, anything that you might need. But there are for a lot of people, it's important to consider also the impacts of a clinical diagnosis. Like let's say um you're a digital nomad and you think you might want to emigrate in the future, you're not going to be able to do that in many countries if you have mental health or autism spectrum disorder-related diagnoses. That's kind of a deal breaker for many countries, which is super ableist and really unfortunate, but it is true. So there's also that thought about like, is this what are the ways in which this is going to help and or hinder things that you might plan to do later? So um, I feel like my most meaningful takeaway from getting a diagnosis was understanding what are the gaps that are going to be the most impactful for me to close. Like I'm spending all this time through my own journey of understanding who I am, the clarity of what I need. Actually, having a medical professional, a person who has put years and years into studying and understanding the things that are different in my brain, can say, with this, this, and that, you might try X, Y, and Z. And it's just like you're gonna get to your answers faster if you have a little outside help. And that, I mean, that's been my experience. Um, you know, getting my ADHD and uh dyspraxia diagnoses in particular have been life-changing uh in terms of the way that I understand how my brain works. And um, you know, Caitlin and I worked together for many years. So she's seen me advocate for my specific workplace-related needs. And uh, she's actually been a huge help to me in like figuring out what some of those uh accommodations are as well.
SPEAKER_01So that's absolutely no surprise to me to know that she would be a great support and support you there uh in any way. Do you know?
SPEAKER_00It's so funny that you bring that up because I actually was searching for something today unrelated and a screenshot of some feedback on Slack around the work that you did as part of people and culture to create a company and a place that people could work where it truly felt like it embraced the differences and raised the bar for other places to work on what's possible for when a company genuinely wants to create conditions for people to thrive. And so it's funny that you not funny, of course it was probably gonna come up at some point, but it was funny to me that it came up in my feed today around how how thoughtful and how thorough you are, not in just for your own experience, but in the advocating of other people's experiences and trying to create experiences where more people uh feel included in the way that an organization is designed and written.
SPEAKER_06So absolutely. Yeah, and I think it's funny because we're talking about the impacts of self-diagnosis and involving your community and understanding your needs and clinical diagnosis and having these external forces helping you understand what you need, all of this contributes to you building solutions that are going to work for you. And it's a lifelong journey because those are gonna evolve throughout your life. And the neurotypical or sorry, the neurodivergent umbrella is so large that if you're not neurodivergent, like maybe just wait because PTSD, CPTSD, drug brain injuries, like all of these things fall under that umbrella. And, you know, it's similar to, you know, disability advocates will say if you haven't experienced disability yet, it's coming. Every person is likely to experience some sort of disabling event in their life because we are human and we are we are not imperfect.
SPEAKER_01So many good pieces in here. I feel like we could go in so many different directions. I think what would be surprising for people listening who are maybe newer to this topic is that neurodivergence doesn't just uh encapsulate autism and ADHD. And just to what you are speaking to there, it is a huge umbrella term for so many different um pieces, or not pieces, so many different disorders and disabilities. And I think that's really surprising to people because what we see in the in like social media and in that world, if we're thinking back to like the hypertherapization of language and people talking about this a lot more, is that it's really those two that people are still speaking about the most, autism and ADHD. And you've probably heard or seen sentiments of like, oh yeah, well, everyone's on a spectrum of some sort, but saying it in a way of like in a dismissive way rather than wait a second, if that's the case and we're seeing the numbers of people being diagnosed rising rapidly, what is going on in the environment? What is different? What is causing this? And that's something that I've been really interested in, just because you could argue or you could say that, all right, people know more about it now. Information is more widely available, so awareness is a is a piece. And also think about how much our environments have changed over the last, like in our lifetim alone, even in a decade, your executive function is something that uh essentially gets built over time. And it's not just one skill, it's a group of many skills. And so I can only imagine, I don't know the ins and outs of this, and maybe you know more about this than I do, Rachel, that our executive function has been so heavily impacted by technology. And when you think of the infinite scroll and the design features that social media has created to keep us hooked and to hijack our nervous systems, I I just can't imagine what our executive function would be, or maybe what Gen Z is in comparison to like boomers, because they've had a disruptor come in and blow the whole shit up.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. I mean, people talk about like why does everyone on TikTok TikTok have ADHD? And it's like, oh, the people who are addicted to the dopamine slot machine all have ADHD. Wow. Oh, yeah, that happened. But yes, I don't know. I I actually I don't think that, and I could be wrong, like I'm not a neuroscientist, obviously. It is my perspective that the amount of neurodivergent people is not necessarily increasing, but our understanding, again, of the blocks that not everybody has them all in one line, and that there is some myriad ways that they can be built in each person. And, you know, like we were talking about with education, everything being so standardized and that being the typical profile. I think we know now that maybe that's not most of us, right? Um, and so I think more access to information, obviously, being able to interact with communities we might not have had access to before. Um there's more of us that are able to figure out what that identity might be than we might have been able to before.
SPEAKER_01And aren't we glad to do that? I don't know if that's right, because yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that we assume that we ask and that we have so much conviction in a system, which by the way, most people uh are fundamentally I understand that there's huge improvements that need to be made in an education system as an example. And yet we've assumed that this system that we can see it is flawed in so many ways has just determined that all of these people are we have neurotypical and then are othered, you know. And so it's is it really that surprising, actually, that this system that was built in a certain way, it's actually not the people that are different, it's just that the system wasn't built right from the start. It shouldn't be that hard of a leap for people to be able to make.
SPEAKER_06And I don't agree with um, I know some people say like it's a spectrum, everyone's on the spectrum. I actually disagree with that. I do think that, you know, there is a core part of you know the population that you know does have a neurotypical brain. I just don't think it's the majority. And I don't think the rest of us have to conform to it.
SPEAKER_00Clicking, clicking fingers over here. And also interestingly, that when we think about conditioning, though, if you look at the generations before us, some of the most classic traits of the generations that came before us, and especially if you start to put PTSD and CPSD into this, if you think about the economic times that have come before, the world wars that have come before, what people have been exposed to, it so many, and and to be fair, Western cultures, I don't want to speak for different cultures that I haven't lived in and don't have that lived experience in, but there has been such a high level of praise that's been associated, like just pull your boots up and keep going. And and this idea of what resiliency even means and looks like, and the rates that we're seeing in mental health that are probably also just related to so many suppressed things and the masking of different things. And so, so many things that people just took pride in that, not took pride in the struggle, but there is this idea of um there's something in there as well to your point, Rachel. I I'm not so convinced also that the number of people is fundamentally changing. I do think technology and other things are significantly influencing the way that it shows up because of just the amount of pressure that is on the executive function, as you said, Chantal, but there are also so many factors that have prevented people from getting access to the support they need across so many different dimensions. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, that probably actually does lead the conversation a little bit into kind of intersectionality in general, and how much so this is through this is one dimension that has so many different dimensions that make it up. If you then layer in other parts of intersectionality into this when it comes to people's identities, the way they move through through the worlds and their environment, how do you think about that, both in the context of the relationship between Eurodivergence and people's intersectional identities? Firstly, and then we can get into and then what does that mean for the way that people access care?
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I want to caveat this whole section of the conversation with I can only speak to my specific intersectional identity, and I won't try to speak for anyone else's. Um, for me, my intersectionalities are that I am neurodivergent, I'm queer, and I'm a woman. And so, you know, those things converging for me in professional spaces, like, you know, that's my lived experience of you know, trying to be that authentic version of myself um and kind of live out loud, but um I lost my thread. I was trying to pull. Sorry guys. Um It's okay, take your time. I don't know. I feel like you know, Caitlin kind of touched on this earlier when she was talking about like in children, things present differently in like a young boy than they might in a girl. Or um, you know, ADHD in like a white child might be considered a medical diagnosis, and in a black child might be considered a performance or disciplinary issue. Um and just the way that those are approached from like a systemic perspective is like it can't it can't be we can't ignore that. We can't ignore that that's a part of the conversation. Um and then there's like that really I'm really grasping for my point here. I'm so sorry, but like that connects so tightly to diagnosis and typical care part of this is like who gets access to the care, who has the the privilege, um the proximity, the resources to to get what they need, and how does that impact how they live with their neurodiverse identity, how they understand it, how they're able to communicate it to other people. Um, you know, and every level of intersectionality um changes that math for each person.
SPEAKER_01I'm thinking about um where I live in which I've just learned in London is very common, is that there are states. So I think you would in in Australia you call this like commission housing in I don't know what it's called in the US.
SPEAKER_06Public housing, generally public housing, yeah. Subsidized housing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, subsidized housing. And I'm just thinking about like in my postcode alone. If I imagined someone from everyone in the buildings that I can see within eye shot of me trying to go through this process of um, and that's just from like a socioeconomic level, and then you add ethnicity, race, however they present to that as well. You've got so many different experiences of someone trying to get access to a system. And then how they move through that. If you think about all of the appointments, I've seen some um people talking about trying to get diagnosed, and it has taken upwards of two years to that's two years of appointments. That's how much money to get the specific tests and all those sorts of things. Um and I just think it's something worth talking about and thinking about as we look at access to care.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, you think about like race, gender, class, all of these things contributing to whether your traits as a neurodivergent person are pathologized, punished, invisible, or whether they're seen and respected and available.
SPEAKER_00And then the fall and effect to that too, depending on the person, how much they then internalize that themselves. The very start of the conversation, one of them you said one of the most clarifying things for you was actually being able to let go of the self-punishment and the shame for this belief that what you were was wrong versus different. And so that coming full circle almost to that point, depending on how sure you feel in your own self and your actually no, I just need to keep advocating because I believe this versus, you know, actually, maybe the system is right and if there's just something else that's wrong with me. And I, and then how does that get internalized over time?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and then it's I feel like it's like deeply stratified, like late diagnosis in women or people who are assigned female at birth, um cost barriers, cultural stigma in communities, either um cultural or religious, around you know, mental health and talking about diagnoses and needing accommodations, like, oh man, so many layers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there anything that you want to say on this last piece around intersectionality that we haven't touched on yet in the way people receive care that you feel really passionate about or that you would want to make a point on?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I feel like the biggest thing for us to remember just as community members in relation to intersectionality, neurodiverse or otherwise, is our responsibility to consider the other members of our community when we are planning events, creating spaces, building programs, designing policies, any of the things that we might be doing in community spaces. It might be your vision, but like it has to be informed by diverse voices and perspectives. And you have to understand and invite the needs of the people that you're serving. Keep it centered.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I listened to someone being interviewed the other day. They just said the first question you should just ask Does what I'm building reflect the people I'm building it for? Absolutely. You know, it can be it can actually be that simple. And if it doesn't, how do I make sure all of the people that I'm serving are represented in the decision making? In the design process. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. As someone who actively participates in communities centering neurodivergence, um, what is something that only upon entering those communities that comes up in discussions around the spectrum of experiences that people have? What is something that you would like people to know about that?
SPEAKER_06Something I love about neurodiverse spaces is that it really feels like everyone is like meeting each other where they are. There's like no pressure to kind of conform. Even in like, even if they don't intend to, in some communities, there is like a maybe a dominant personality that creates a culture. And then everyone is just sort of expected to like rise to that or fall to that, depending on how they're behaving. Um, I feel like in neurodiverse phases, it's it just feels like more of an equal exchange across the group, which is something that I appreciate so much. And um, we talk about like there are so many more people that are neurodiverse than aren't. And it all shows up in so many different ways that when we get together in groups, I feel like we have this like spidey sense, uh, and maybe it's the pattern recognition of being able to like hone in on the other people in the group and we're like, you're like me. And I you guys probably did that, but um I feel for me, I kind of visualize it as um, I can see kind of threads between myself and another person, and I know whether I want to pull that thread or not, and I just like you know, can see that in those environments. And then if you've ever seen like two people with ADHD have a conversation, it's incredible. You know, I have friends that have ADHD and like we have these conversations where we're jumping from topic to topic and um you know pulling these different threads and we're circling back, and there's this like beautiful logic to it, and like that's not happening in a neurotypical space, you know. Like there's just and there's an understanding that that's not you like being distracted or you know, trying to make a conversation about you because you heard what they said and you said something, like, no, that's building, and that's like how we relate to each other. Um and I just think that's really special. And I think like one of the things that I've learned in neurodivergent spaces is that I can trust my gut about how I feel when I make a new connection with someone in community. Um, and I can also trust my gut if it doesn't feel good. You know, something that has been true for me in my neurodivergent identity is that I didn't trust my instincts for a lot of my life. Because again, back to the part about feeling like I was wrong and I was trying, you know, be like other people, I would just assume, like, okay, well, my instincts are definitely wrong. So let me ignore those and then do something else. Um, and that has such a trickle down through your whole life where you stop trusting your instincts. And that trickles into all your relationship patterns. And so you start having these kind of gut feelings when you meet people or you enter new communities and you're like, okay, well, I don't trust myself. So I'm just gonna ignore that and I'm just gonna fall in line and be a part of this group. And then it all blows up for you six months, two years, five years later, like um, and so I feel like when you're in these communities where you're seeing yourself reflected back, you are building that trust in knowing that you can, you know, create these new connections and and believe what people are telling you. Like, I don't know, it's just like such a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_01I'm really curious about relationships that you've had uh when you started trusting your intuition and the friendships that you made prior to that, or not your intuition, trusting your instincts. I won't put words in your therapy, trusting your instincts. Prior to that point, the difference between your friendships before and after, and the friendships that you've made since trusting your instincts, is there a different quality to them?
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Um, I feel like when I was making connections and entering communities without really feeling that like gut connection, I felt like I was generating a version of myself that could be in that community and then putting that mask on every time that I engaged with that person or that community. And it wasn't fully me and it didn't feel restorative. It felt it burned me out to spend time with these groups. And like if you're spending time with a group of people and you need time to recover because it was so hard for you to pretend to be someone else while you were there, that's probably not a good space for you. Like that's really, really damaging to your mental health and your and your battery. And like we should be spending time in spaces where we feel recharged and energized and um where it doesn't feel like a drain because you can't be yourself.
SPEAKER_01That's such an important, important message. I think I I work with a lot of people who are going through transformations from an identity perspective, just maybe the version of themselves that they had been living as no longer fits, and we work through that. And something that they have often acknowledged back to me or or said to me is that hanging out with the people that they've been friends with for a really long time is starting to feel harder for them. And one of the things that we always talk about is as your yardstick, your measuring tool, is check in with yourself uh directly after the interaction. How do you feel? Do you feel energized? Do you feel like you could be yourself, or do you feel really drained and like the energy has just been sucked and leached out of you? Because that's an indicator, and we need to listen to those.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And there's nuance to it, right? Like I can spend time with a group that I love dearly and it can be a lot on me, and I can need a day to recover because that's just how my social battery works, versus I am so tired because it was so hard to pretend for a five-hour event. I think being able to like tune into those things for yourself and really understand the difference. Um, at least for me, has been like life-changing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think just developing, we did an episode on is your internal compass actually yours? Like it's actually just a muscle that you have to keep developing and developing and developing. And and it that's we this is a relational, but think about this in the context of relationships and people, but honestly applies. Actually, just just developing your own conviction, developing your internal compass, and just starting to not seek the questions from outside is like, okay, how do I actually feel? Like, what would have to be true for this to feel X or for this to feel Y? And or what would have to be true for this next decision to feel like a good or a right decision? And so that kind of because it is a compounding effect of ignoring your own things in one area. I think what might surprise some people is that it's you're talking about this in a specific part of your life, but it can very easily, when you lose self-trust, it actually permeates all of the areas of your life. Or not all, but can go into other areas, right? And so if you even if this is an area that still feels hard or crunchy for you, there are so many different ways that you can practice that and on different levels of um importance or the weight of that thing and start testing it. And then as you start to do it, oh, okay, actually I see how I feel after I've made more in-tune decisions. I see how I feel after I've done X differently. Okay, now I'm really ready to interrogate some of these things where the cost of those right choices, they do. Like sometimes the cost of that change that you were both talking about is actually I I'm gonna move into different social circles. I'm going to try and meet new or different people. Uh might even be work. I've got to, I'm gonna go and do something different now. They have consequences. So it's sometimes it can actually just be building up that confidence so that then you can make some of those harder changes that do honor your instincts.
SPEAKER_06Amen.
SPEAKER_00So this has very much so been about the individual. And one of the things that I know you're passionate about from having worked with you for a long time, there is, especially with things like uh neurodivergence or mental health, or able, there's so many things where the impetus is put on the individual to assert their own needs and to ask for what they need. When it comes to community, and feel free to also take this into the place of workplaces, because I know that that's a very much a place where people gather and people are responsible for creating those rooms where people gather. How should they be thinking about neurodivergence and what responsibility do they have for ensuring those spaces and experiences are actually inclusive?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, I feel like the number one thing is that like we are not a monolith presentation.
SPEAKER_05Shocking.
SPEAKER_06Very broad coping strategies are very individual, you know, tools needed, you know, really vary by the person. So I would say, you know, anyone in a position of creating space or being responsible for spaces like work or community or otherwise, like knowing one person's needs does not equal knowing all neurodivergent people's needs. So, like, just don't think you've got it dialed in just because you got it right once. Like it's definitely gonna be different all the time. Um, you know, I think the call to action is really to learn, if you are neurotypical, to learn how to not wait for a neurodivergent person to say what they need, but rather to start engagements with like I love the phrase um curious compassion. So not having any real assumptions around um what someone might need and coming in and being curious. And, you know, I made some comments to Caitlin around like how important I think that is, especially in workplace, because you know, if so many of us, Gen Z and millennials, are now identifying as neurodivergent, and the playbooks that, you know, people, teams, and managers are still using in workplaces assumes that everyone will operate in one specific way and it's the employees' responsibility to raise the hand if they need something different. Well, that starts to not work if we're hitting, you know, maybe 70% of your workforce identifies as neurodivergent. Cool, then that system does not work. That doesn't scale. So rebuilding systems that work for your workplace and take people's individual needs into account. But Sendall, you know, we had um uh user manuals in our HRIS, which I really liked. Um, it wasn't quite as widely adopted as I would have liked, but I appreciated that it was there. Um and I think that's one example of a way that, you know, an organization can just jump in front of someone having to put their hand up, you know.
SPEAKER_00And there's so much that an individual manager can do, right? As well. So that's a thing. This that we can obviously, hopefully, we're thinking about this as the workplace as a whole system. Um and speaking very like candidly, I did not have much exposure to this conversation before working at Sendal. And then I was your manager, you reported to me. And you brought all of these things and you had all these conversations. And there was, I had three, I had three people, three or four people reporting to me that time, and two different people identified as neurodivergent. And and to be fair, you did have to come to me. That wasn't in my toolkit yet when I met with each of my new leaders. Hey, how do you, how do you best learn? How do you work? What are some of the things that you might need so that I can support you as your leader? And also being transparent, I've got it right sometimes, and I didn't get it right all the time. Too, that also shouldn't be a barrier to starting again. It doesn't absolve you of responsibility. But actually, one of the biggest, two of the big observations that I had as being more of a as a leader is one, it revealed how many biases I have about what performance looks like. I had a huge bias for the speed of thinking. And this is still something Shantelby nodding, because this is still something I can get stuck on now. Because I was working completely in environments that prized and the whole models are built on velocity. Being in a room with people that if they needed time to process, they needed things done before, some of these I thought, okay, that person isn't working as quickly. And obviously, I can see the error of those ways. Because that's not the case. But if you're not in those environments, you're not having those conversations, to your point of the accessibility of opportunities in workplaces, if people are also just rewarding a certain thing in a um a performance rubric, then people that actually have different needs who can contribute huge amounts of value, you were one of the most valuable people in the whole company. You, but you needed there were certain things that actually helped you to thrive that could have been missed if different conversations weren't had at certain points in time and that you didn't have the confidence to articulate your needs. And I didn't have it in my toolkit yet to ask you for what you needed. And so there's so much that individual, like there is you're going to learn about your own biases. And then the second thing that I was is every single, let's say they're not accommodations, every single um need or request, everybody benefited from them. This is inclusive everybody, yes, because it was it was. I mean, who's not gonna benefit from getting a freaking agenda in ahead of the meeting, first of all? Who's not gonna benefit from being able to read some of the prep time? Who's not gonna benefit from having certain pauses in the session for so that people can think and process? Because haven't forbidden people want to think before they speak. Like there were so many things actually making sure that you're giving your people timelines for when their things are due, as opposed to them just assuming that everything is urgent. These are things that every team member in that works for you is going to benefit from. So they're not accommodations. They're like actually the feedback is telling us that there's better ways to work and that how we've designed the.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Uh it's making me think about the assumption that the dynamic of leadership is that the leader, either in workplace or community, shares how they like to lead, and then the rest of the team just kind of steps into their leadership style. Like, what is that? Like, flip that.
SPEAKER_01Like full leadership, actually.
SPEAKER_06Let's flip that. Like, maybe leadership is actually that you like have a way of understanding the needs of the group that you're leading or the community that you're leading, and then you have an approach that brings those diverse perspectives together and creates a group that's capable of accomplishing something. Like it's just like flipping that is like, oh gosh, just really the dynamic needs uh a redesign, I think. And it's really just a neurotypical dynamic, right? That like a leader is someone who will share their leadership perspective with the group and the group will fall in line. That's not really the way that people work, though.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, that's coming full circle again. That's capitalism, baby. Yeah, right. It always comes back to capitalism. That's capitalism in the patriarchy in one. Uh rules go top down. We are here to serve the most senior person in the room, and we all do our best work when we're doing exactly what they need, when they need it, and how they need it. Like the good little soldiers. Oh gosh. That is that that's workplaces. We, as part of news and working through experience design more broadly and the art of facilitation and just designing group spaces that responsibly hold the outcomes of the container.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00When you start to layer in broader parts of the umbrella, PTSD, CPSD, etc., the responsibility of holding space, of the sorry, the responsibility for the people, for the people holding the space. What are your thoughts on that one, too? Because, you know, we talk about workplaces, and that's where it's almost overt that organizations should start to have a responsibility, but there are also these really subtle ways that are so much uh they're a lot less governed. You know, workplaces still have some sort of accountability somewhere, you hope, but there are so many communities and spaces that are getting into very, very meaningful work, but maybe aren't thinking through the full responsibilities of it of some of the other things that sit in this neurodivergence umbrella.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely. I'll zoom out a little bit on that before kind of zoom back into it. Um, I think by default, and this is not a you know a failure on anyone's part, but by default, the human lens is like very myopic. I feel like we center our own perspective and our own experience very easily. So I think when we were talking about, you know, the responsibility of bringing in diverse voices in planning and in design, um there's an opportunity there to make a shift from just the idea of inclusion to meaningful accommodation. So if you're saying inclusion is you can join, cool, I'm welcome. Great. But meaningful accommodation is you can join, and here's the agenda in advance, here's how you contribute in different ways. This there's gonna be, you know, X component of this that might pull this thread and you know, trigger warning. If you have childhood trauma, part of the writing workshop is gonna touch on that. So maybe this is something you don't want to contribute to. Like just all those things sort of being considered in, and there's a million ways that a meaningful accommodation can can show up in planning. But I do think that just in general, if you're creating or holding space, like you do have a responsibility and you owe your audience or you owe your um in a workplace environment, you owe your team, your stakeholders, uh, transparency about what's to be expected. People under the neurodivergent umbrella with like trauma adjacent diagnoses require a lot of information in advance, not just like a post-debrief as well. So really thinking about the event or the program or whatever it is that you're designing, it's not just that day or it's not just that launch. It's what happens beforehand, what gets communicated as expectations, and then the after part of, you know, understanding how did it land? And was there feedback from different sections of my community that engaged with this? That, you know, something wasn't anticipated or didn't land the way that I thought it might. I just think, yeah, it goes beyond just what you're planning into the whole planning cycle.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. What I'm hearing in that is that there's a lot of action required as well as just thinking about like some planning and logistics. There's conversation that needs to be had. There needs to be follow-up, there needs to be uh changes made with the feedback that is provided. Also, once you gather it, whether you're in the planning stage or whether you're in the feedback stage. Uh, and I think, you know, I've been chirping on about this since I was in the since I started in the coaching industry. And Caitlin, you know my views on this, but I think there are so many people. Well-meaning people. I have I have graduated.
SPEAKER_00I have graduated in my life. She says that she says that through like gritted teeth.
SPEAKER_01Well-meaning people who are trotting their dirty boots in places they should not be trotting dirty boots, and they do not have the skills or the knowledge to navigate it safely for people. And it it grinds my gears because there's there are certain areas that I just wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, even though I studied psychology for six years. Childhood, um, inner inner child work is one of them. That's that's not for me to traverse into. Um, and then also for me, eating disorders. So complex. So many things that I just even though I have skills, they're not my areas of expertise. And I think we need more integrity in spaces like this where people can say, Do you know what? This is my lane. Do you know? And I know a bit about this, but I'm not going to be the person to help you with that. I would have clients all the time where we like start getting into some childhood stuff, and I say, time out. This feels really important for you to share. I can listen, but I'm just letting you know that I'm taking off my coach hat in this moment, and I'm not your therapist either. And so I can listen, but I really encourage you to also bring this up with someone who has the skills to navigate this with you in the Way that you need to, um, that can navigate whatever needs to happen outside of this because it's not me and that's not the role I'm in. And so yeah.
SPEAKER_06I mean, if you're digging into trauma for inspiration without trigger warnings, like you're creating an unsafe space by design. And that is like, why are we doing that?
unknownCool.
SPEAKER_06What is that for? Why are you doing that? Yeah. And I've talked before a lot with Caitlin about, you know, I being a trauma-informed practitioner in the work that I do. And that doesn't mean that I am your therapist. Like it doesn't mean that I'm going to um solve all your problems, or you know, you can come to me and I can be a talk therapist as your as your people professional. It's not what it means. What it means is I will consider the way that information can need to be delivered to people in predictable and sometimes diverse ways in order to meet the needs of people in the organization who might be struggling with trauma, myself included. And I think that sometimes that understanding can get a little mixed up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's the fuzzy part. You know, people hear trauma-informed and they think, oh, great, you're equipped to handle all of my deepest, darkest things and like let's go there. And that's yeah, that's just not what it means. And so I think I really like your distinction there of um how you sort of put guardrails up against that and create that predictable environment for people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and because where my comparing is going is people are are looking for spaces that have more depth. Because to your point about the performances and wanting to other speak with other people that have different lived experiences, and people are trying to create forums that are needed, but then Chantal and I talk about the badge of honor that people put on when they start seeing people crying in there because it's so moving, and it is. It is. And when that virtual of room, when that button closes on their screen or when they walk out the door, that person is going out into the world, still crying. They've still revealed and shared something. And look, to your point, there is a level of self-responsibility for spaces, it's this and that, and it's not going to do X and Y. And you do have to resource yourself. We're not absolving personal responsibility. But if you're running them those places and you don't have practices in place or you're not thinking through it necessarily, it's very much I will handle this as we as it crops up. Um, that can be a bit of a tough one. Yeah. And obviously, this has been through the lens of neurodivergence, but we could have looked at it, we could have done this through so many different perspectives. Is there a part of this or a related topic that you would just love to kind of share as part of this discussion?
SPEAKER_06Hmm. I don't know. I think the thing that I would want to like leave your listeners with as a little nugget is just like increase the amount of curiosity that you have about the way that your brain works and the brains of the people around you work. Um if that's not something that you're doing, give it a shot. It's really only going to increase, you know, your understanding of yourself and your ability to connect with and meet the needs of the people around you. And you might be neurodivergent, you might not be neurodivergent, but you certainly know a neurodivergent person. And everyone is capable of improving the lives of the people around us through community in some of the ways that we talked about today.
SPEAKER_00Show up Chantel and I know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, show on forget people, be curious. Only good things can come from it. Whether you learn something about yourself, whether you learn something about them. Both. I can't, uh yeah, I've had so many moments with Caitlin, other friends where they've asked me a question and I've been like, hmm. No one's asked me that before. And those moments are so like building for the relationship. And yeah, it creates a really nice depth and meaning and care.
SPEAKER_06And it's like a good diagnostic. If you're curious with people in your community and they have a bad reaction to it, those are people you probably shouldn't be in community with. So that's a great.
SPEAKER_04I've got about 800 more questions. So if you have a problem with that one, we're not gonna be able to go much further because it's a great place to start practicing that instinct that we talked about earlier. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. You're in the exact club, Rachel. Exactly. Okay, well, it has been the truest, truest pleasure. The closing question is we have an expression at Muse that it's cool to care and it's fun to give a fuck. What's something that you just think it's so cool to care about or it's fun to give a fuck about?
SPEAKER_06It's cool to care and it's fun to give a fuck. Um I mean, this is gonna touch back on like what we talked about earlier, but like it's cool to care about what your friends need. Like, let me take you to the airport, let me make you sue, like let me do a mock interview with you because you're trying to get a job. Like let me. You know? Don't let them let me. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Like, let me fuck let them in so many ways.
SPEAKER_06Let me in a million ways. But like let me want to bother me. Bother me. Bother me. Call me, beat me if you want to reach me. I want to do anything. I want to do anything, and I think it's so cool.
SPEAKER_02Love friendship is cool. Friendship is cool. Friendship is cool.
SPEAKER_06Because like, what do we have? We have each other. That's it.
SPEAKER_00That's it. And on that note, thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure. We hope everyone enjoys. Love you bye. Love you bye.