Existential Thread
The architecture of human belonging because it’s cool to care and fun to give a fuck. Prepare to get out of your journal and into your life.
Existential Thread
How to move past the discomfort of disagreement?
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We grew up mistaking being good at yelling for being good with confrontation but articulating your needs, quietly, is a whole other thing. It requires self inquiry, conviction in your own feelings and needs, and a bunch of tools in the toolkit to navigate disagreement and repair.
In this episode Caitlin and Chantelle get into what it really means to sit in discomfort - with yourself, with the people you love, and in the rooms you're responsible for holding. We start where most conversations about conflict don't: in the body. Because before tension is intellectual, it's physical. It's shoulders at your ears. It's a stomach dropping. It's a four-year-old version of you climbing into your lap when someone's tone shifts.
We chat about our own default tension responses - the defensive whip, the disappearing act (dives into hedges) and what it took to start doing it differently. We’ll explore different types of tension and why collapsing them into one undifferentiated "hard" is costing us in our relationships.
We even walk the talk, sharing our first moment of relationship tension as co-founders & besties. It’s giving romcom but friendship. There’s a train station, a bathroom, and the make up moment the movie wouldn’t be complete without.
This episode comes with two gentles nudges:
- Where is an apology getting in the way of deepening a relationship?
- Where did you disappear this week when you could have deferred instead?
Go on. Pop it in your ears.
And as always, we go wherever connection lives. This time it sits on the other side of discomfort.
If anything in this episode stirs something big, please bring it to a friend, a therapist, or someone who loves you.
Made with intention by Meus Studios.
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Hi hello everyone. Welcome to Existential Thread. This is episode six. Caitlin. Can you believe? Can you believe?
SPEAKER_03This is crazy, mama Sita.
SPEAKER_00So fun though. I'm yeah, having a great time, thankfully. Would wouldn't be good if I wasn't. Is this fresher than is? Well, the topic today is all about disagreement and dissent. So that would be a perfect segue, but not great for my tender little heart.
SPEAKER_03Don't worry, I haven't head wood. Headwinked. Headwinked? Hood hoodwinged. Hoodwinked. Yeah, I haven't hoodwinked you.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. That would do a serious amount of damage to my trust and my already fragile trust issues. Thank you. Got you, boo.
SPEAKER_03I got you.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna get into more of that later though, but we would like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land in which we chat, learn, and share, and welcome any First Nations people listening to our episode. Discomfort is what we're talking about today. Because as Muse, we have agreed to go wherever connection lives. Uh, and disagreement, dissent, tension, all of these uncomfortable pieces of being in relationship and being in yourself and in your own body and being a community member is all part of it.
SPEAKER_03So do you wanna do wanna share what we got to do last week? Yes, and often on the uh often a barrier to sitting in the discomfort or sharing your discomfort is a bunch of suppressed emotions and feelings that we're not sure if they're valid or not. And going to an Alanis Morris concert. Morriset. All of the valid Morissette, sorry, Alanis Morris.
SPEAKER_00Alanis Morrisette concert it's kind of hard to say all in one, you know, Alanis Morissette concert.
SPEAKER_03Alanis Morris concert, yes, concert, yes, exactly. But we went and uh for anyone who doesn't know her work and you ought to know, uh, but okay, can you please make that song the uh track to this pod release, please? Thank you. Um it was very ironic. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01We're dying over here.
SPEAKER_03For anyone who's like, okay, auto know and ironic and thank you are all Alanis Morissette songs. Uh, but a big part of her work is about feminine rage and is about all of the silence and is about the suppressed of feelings and is about these like um these this deep-seated conditioning around perfection and uh that uh women in particular have so much depth and duality to us, and that rage is a really valid uh emotion. And I actually actually, since the concert, I listened to her being interviewed, and there was a lot of pressure about whether she led with, I guess, one of the angriest songs on the album. And she saw this thing. Yes, and she basically said, She's like, I had a lot of pushback, but I the song everybody else wanted me to start with was too happy, it was too joyful, is giving it was giving too much permission for the things that I didn't want that album to be about. And if they want to call me angry, call me angry. But I'd rather people start with an intense feeling because that's what this is actually all about. Um, and being willing to sit in it.
SPEAKER_00She's such a queen. It's funny because when Caitlin said, Oh my gosh, Elias Morissette is playing, do you want to go see it? I was like, um, yeah, sure. I can see that you're really excited about this and I care about you, so let's do it. Um and then I started listening to her stuff, and I was like, actually, there's a few absolute bangers here, but I don't know anything outside of Jagged Pearl, like to be clear. But when we got there, I was really surprised because A, there was 100,000 people. I didn't picture it to be this huge thing because it was like a festival that had other acts playing, and then she played at the end. Uh, and also I did not anticipate to be holding back tears when she stepped onto the stage. And you only told me like a couple of days later, and I said, Oh my gosh, girl, me too. What the hell was going on in my body?
SPEAKER_03I almost started balling. Like, she honestly just walked out. The like the the soundtrack started, and she honestly just walked out. She hadn't even done anything. My eyes were welling up. I felt it across my whole body. I'm I I'm unwell in the best possible way.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think you and I talk about this a lot about the power of live music, the power of like the collective experience of being somewhere. And I think we should add to the list of like, if everyone read more fiction, the world would be a better place. I think if more people went to live music, the world would be a better place too. Because there were so many pure moments that just made our hearts happy.
SPEAKER_03And you can go and be in a big group of people and you can feel nice things, and it's a little bit of faith and hope in humanity, and that there is still things that are alive and very, very well. And the chatting to strangers, we saw people around a common interest just starting to chat, and people commenting on this person's tattoo, and this person's this, and all the kids that were at the concert, and there was this moment where uh the camera on the the where it was being what was being projected onto the the big screens was this little girl that was on top of her dad's shoulders, and she had the cutest outfit on, and the crowd went bananas because this little girl was rocking out, she knew the lyrics, and it became a trend that all of the little kids would put up on their parents' shoulders, and it was just this really wholesome celebration in this beautiful contrast to these really deep and intense conversations that she's having with her music, the depth of her performance, but also this levity through kids, and it was just it was really, really cool.
SPEAKER_00It was really cool. It was, it was a very beautiful moment. What wasn't such a beautiful moment was when we were leaving and the swarm of people and going up these rickety ass stairs, they basically, if if you picture a building with scaffolding at the front, and you've ever looked at some rickety scaffolding and thought, thank gosh, I don't have to scale that and work on that every day because I would fear for my life. Yeah, well, imagine hundreds of people on a staircase built out of that same rickety scaffolding, and it's swaying when you are at the top. I was just like, this is how it ends. This is I am gonna see the headlines, two Australian girls in the wreckage. Actually, it's probably gonna be more than two because there's a lot of Aussies in London. Anyway, my whole brain went to the headlines. And my mum finding out that I went to an Alanus Morissette concert, and that's what ended me. I was unimpressed.
SPEAKER_03I was very I would yeah, it was we literally said on that thing, this cannot be how we go down. Yes, we've got so much more good to do. This can't be a stampede as a structure falls down when it wasn't even high, you know what I mean? Like it was high enough that you think it would not be well. It was high enough that it would not end well, but it wouldn't be like spectacular.
SPEAKER_00No, correct. I don't think it would have been spectacular. It would just be a very average way to go down, yes, and you know, almost slightly like I always think about this if you got hit by a bike, that feels like a bicycle. That feels like a possible way that you could go down, that would be really awful. And my brain went to dark places. I'm so glad we're at the end of it, and we get to reflect on what a great moment that was. And our girl Alinas has still got it. That lady is fine as hell. She gave it everything. She left. I thought about her neck the next day. And I thought, how does how does your neck feel today? Because you've got a lot of hair. Yeah. Yeah. You're whipping that around. She really was okay.
SPEAKER_03Down on like hands and knees at one point. She gave it.
SPEAKER_00Panther crawling across the floor.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Speaking of being on hands and knees.
SPEAKER_00Oh dear.
SPEAKER_03It's almost getting into the fetal territory position, and I feel like that's how some people feel about tension and conflict.
SPEAKER_00What a segue. My brain went so many other places other than where you were going.
SPEAKER_03I know, I know. I really let it simmer too. I really intentionally dragged it out. Look at my comedic timing.
SPEAKER_00I think you're probably on hands and knees, yeah, like in front of a toilet because you want to vomit because disagreement is awful.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Vomiting, fetal position, whatever it might be, uh child's pose, you know, whatever you need, but disagreement, descent, tension, conflict, it's a body feeling.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Did everyone's shoulders just like up to their ears, or did their stomach drop out of their butt? Like, I think everyone has. And depending on the situation, I feel like there's a bodily reaction that you know, like rah-ro, something's about to happen, or oh, I need to say this thing. I don't want to.
SPEAKER_03Yes. What's your earliest memory? And what type of tension does it invoke, or what did the tension feel like?
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna go along the Alanis line here and think about when I was young. Uh, I had two older brothers. So antagonistic poking of bears to a young girl that didn't have a hold on her emotional regulation. And I remember feeling really angry and like explosive anger that is not becoming on a young lady. So, you know, interesting feelings formed around anger, which through conditioning, and I think that would be a lot of women's experiences. But yeah, I think that's probably my first memories around disagreement, discomfort, the tension within my body, because then there was also a I don't know when the shame kicked in. I don't know if I'm thinking back on that with an older lens and projecting shame backwards, or if I actually did feel a little bit embarrassed about how angry I was in those moments and being provoked in that way. Um, probably not. I feel like that's probably something I've looked back on and projected onto that time. But yeah, I would say that would be my youngest memory of anything like that. But it was kind of just I didn't have the skills to navigate any of that. I didn't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex. I was just angry.
SPEAKER_03But that's the thing though, we associate conflict and tension with rage, with anger. Yeah. Because when you don't have that, and I have very similar stories to that one, and when you look further back, that's how you think about it. Because I don't know that there was these really nice in-between things where you could just casually express, thoughtfully express a concern outside of the moment to bring something back up at a different point in time, or whatever, or you had suppressed something for a long time. And so by the time it hits the ejection point, it's rageful and there's a lot of emotions. And I feel like we get schooled enough about because when you said about what did I internalize? I don't know how I would have described it, but I definitely still recall the idea that I was too emotional or that I was crazy or that I was all of these things, probably in those moments. I was a little bit of that shit. But I think the but I still definitely felt like I got schooled at the time for how it came out. And I did have a lot of like shame and guilt and embarrassment and and probably like frustration about that because I felt deeply misunderstood. Not that your actions shouldn't have consequences, but it wasn't, I just always been like, ah, they just didn't that feeling.
SPEAKER_00That's that's not what I was trying to do, or like that that wasn't meant to happen. And yeah, when you got a house of little ones as well, you know, once we get a bit older and we're teenagers and we're all just brawling with each other, that's like the whole sibling dynamic. I don't know. Like, there's no class that you go to with your family members at some point that's like, okay, we're adults now, you're gonna learn how to actually communicate effectively, you big sausages, because you're acting silly and you're still acting like you did when you were eight to fourteen years old, and we're all, you know, a little bit more mature than that, and we would not treat our friends this way. So why are we thinking that this is okay with family?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, the way you defelt back into roles. Yes. Every yeah. Yes. You always say, Are you healed or have you just not been triggered? Yes, yes, yes. Oh my god, and it's funny in the context of angry. I actually was briefly dating someone a couple of years ago. Don't even know if dating's the word, and he was like, something about angry came up. You know, he's like, You have that in you. And I was like, honestly, I'd created the most relaxed, calm, grounded life in LA. I'd there was never drama, there were never arguments, there were never anything. It was just this beautiful, healthy life that I had, and I could get angry about the world and what was happening, but it didn't feature in my life at all in the way that it had in previous chapters. Um then I would go back and there would be little tests with one of my brothers, or something would happen, and you get it increasingly more right. But it's the difference between knowing better and doing better, are just fundamentally not the same things. And one takes practice rather than just an intellectual understanding of it, and also what was modeled to you, what was around you. Like I'm sure my mum won't mind me saying, but my parents were separated. That wasn't uh that wasn't an amicable situation for a long time. And so I think you just build these connotations with how do we handle things, which is the Australian nonchalant shove under a carpet and move on. And then eventually one day it just kind of blows up as something else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. There's that saying um if you don't deal with it, you'll end up leading on someone who didn't cut you. I know again, graphic, but um, it's it's just so yeah, I think it's really illustrative of those types of situations that if you don't do that internal, I don't like like the internal work type of thing, but you know what I mean. That if you don't take the time to understand yourself with the self-inquiry and understanding your patterns, they are just set to repeat and they'll repeat in places that you don't want them to repeat, and then you'll feel that feeling that you explained before of like that ah, that's not what I was trying to say or trying to do, and that wasn't not my intention. And I think that really speaks to the the focus of this season of the me and talking about how we as individuals show up in the world and what level of self-inquiry is you know a good amount or a supportive, positive amount, and when does it tip over into what we talk about in one of our first episodes around self-obsession, where we're actually not shifting into the okay, so what? Now you have all this information, you have all these tools, you have all this stuff, what are you doing with it? You need to be practicing and you need to be contributing. And so I think that the initial reaction that we all have in ourselves when disagreement or tension comes up, that's something that we should all know how we respond. What is a way that you respond? What's like your signature?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and yeah, it was actually going through my mind as you were speaking. Um, I have a very defensive coping mechanism, I would say, in the moment. Like I can handle, you know, and I've been in a leadership position for a long time. And when I tell you I have sat in rooms and had to navigate deep tension and conflict on deep ethical issues in a professional setting, in certain settings, I'm much more equipped. But I would still say if I feel like my back is up against a wall, I don't even have to be banged. But like if my the back of my shirt is starting to sense that something's up, I think the fastest way out of here is a quick whip. And then I'm I'm closing the door the hard way. And that would be it. That's got less and less with time. However, interestingly, it's taking me to learn how to apologize for that to be able to do it differently.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So the hindsight needs to come forward. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I because I really struggled with apologizing because I didn't even have the skills to start the conversation that I would be worried would be confrontational. And I think people confuse their ability to yell with their ability to deal with confrontation and conflict. I think some people be like, oh, I yell all the time, we fight all the time. And then you can associate that with I'm fine with conflict. I'm fine with confrontation. It's actually, they're very different things. And it's the softer stuff that's much harder. Like, fine, go back in and yell. But to actually go back in quietly and be like, hey, that wasn't my finest moment. Yeah. Creating that safety that way actually has created more permission for me, whether that's in myself or in the relationships in general, to actually navigate the moments differently. I don't know, something about it's you know what I mean? It's almost like people think that that moment comes first. Whereas I for me, it's actually having to learn how to apologize. Yes. And that skill set is actually helping me to navigate it better in the world.
SPEAKER_00The initial. Yeah, 100%. That's like the look back to look forward type of situation where um and I think that also is such a reflection on how you've had to practice because, as you said, you've been in leadership positions, things get tense when you're particularly in the role that you were in and the conversations you're having to navigate and how quickly things have to get done and how much is changing at any given moment. We're all human. We're allowed to have human reactions to things, and it's how you come back that actually builds the trust. I could guarantee that anyone who has worked with you, that you've had to come back and be like, hey, that wasn't my finest moment, would hold you in higher regard because you did that than if you just like got it right the first time.
SPEAKER_03Oh, and vice versa. I actually had a new boss out that long ago, and that didn't end up being a um a place that I wanted to stay. But they had one of those moments, and they called me the next morning and was like, hey, that wasn't my moment. That wasn't it. And I'm like, you're right, wasn't it? But God, I appreciate this phone call.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think that's the it put cookies in the cookie jar, as you say. It put cookies in the cookie jar. And I think if you've never had an experience of that, you don't learn that relationships can hold that level of um honesty or yeah, tension without breaking. Because if you've only seen things break and not repair, how are you meant to know it's even possible?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And what does it look like for you?
SPEAKER_00Uh I definitely shut down, which is which is interesting because you'd think from my personality, I wouldn't. Or I have the impression that I people would assume I would fight back, but I definitely get very quiet and just disappear into the hedges and make peace. I will deal with this later, or not at all, depending on how much I trust you.
SPEAKER_03Do you think that the part of this is I think you and I are both very good at we'll jump in if we're advocating for someone else or something else. Yes. But when our own feelings get, also to quote you, butthurt. Uh that's a fundamentally different thing.
SPEAKER_00So different, so so different. And it's funny because like I have done some inner child stuff in the past with a trained therapist who was very good. And I have this image when that happens, of like a maybe four-year-old me climbing into my lap. And it it's so vivid, I can feel, I can genuinely feel when it happens. And it's almost like it's almost it's become a little signal for me now. Like when that happens, that's when I have to talk about it. Or like that's when I have to share what her, or that's when I have to sit with it for myself, journal through it, think about whether this is a me thing, 100%, or whether it's a relationship thing, and if the person would benefit from knowing that this is a me thing, not because they have to be responsible for it, but because if they notice something that happens in a situation and they see this pattern, they can either know to adjust to whatever feels good for them. Yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um without taking that responsibility as being their own, because we talk about that a lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And because especially if you are people that are in tune to other people, you are picking up on some things. And people, we are inherently, what is it, myopic beings? Was it Rachel? And we do tend to assume that it was something to do with us uh when we're noticing a different in someone else's behavior. And actually they're just working through their own thing, they've realized it's themselves. You're not responsible, but just like, hey, I'm noticing something, I'd love to get closure. Look, oh, I'd love to understand uh what is actually happening here. And speaking of coming off the back of a neuro spicy or sorry, neurodivergent episode, rejection hypersensitivity is huge. That's a huge one for me. And I actually haven't told you this yet, Chatelle. And you're putting your hand up saying, yes, me too. Right, no, yeah. Last night I saw this woman. There's some really cool research that's coming out around ADHD. And sidebar, ADHD can bring forward perimenopause symptoms by up to a decade. Let's pull, we have to do a whole other episode on that, but I learned that this week, and that is mind-boggling to me because perimenopause also heightens um brain fog and a bunch of other things that you can struggle with as part of being neurodivergent. And so, anyway, sidebar. But this woman, she shared a story. She's a clinical practitioner in this space, has huge amounts of expertise, and she shared a story that she was in the car with her husband and she gave him wrong direction. And she spent the next hour having the deepest intense breakdown that this would be like a moment where they're going to like have a type of feeling about them. This is her partner, by the way. This is a long-term, like healthy relationship. And she just like, I have spiraled in the most intense way that this relationship is over, like this person. And she's like, because I went the wrong way at the street. And we, Chantel and I, had a similar moment on a road trip in Seattle one time. And the extent to which I internalized making a mistake as being something like, all right, the friendship's over. I mean, we should probably just pack up. Do you even need to do this trip?
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna get out. You take the car, I'll figure out how to get home. So far. I deserve to walk after that. I actually don't even remember that. It was in Seattle when we went the wrong way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know, but it wasn't multiple persons. Oh, from that perspective, from that very early in the trip. Yes, we had to happen that we got stuck in the traffic. Yeah, we had to go for like 25 minutes in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_03We were trying to get to a um a ferry, and it was consequential in my head. And anyway, but the thing is of like hypersensitivity re-rejection, if you think about that, the context of tension, um, how you think about your own feelings and how important it is actually to share something which with another person, which is like, hey, I'm having this reaction.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03But understand that going the wrong way is probably not cause for divorce, but it doesn't feel that way right now.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't divorce you over that. I know you're probably talking about the person, but I'm talking about us. I wouldn't divorce you over that. I'd I'd have to think about what I'd divorce you over, but we'll we we can come back for that different part. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well no, maybe it's good to good to know in the first. Oh, yeah, true. And yes, because love shouldn't be unconditional. Yeah, exactly. It's not people, yes. Um, okay, what's really cool maybe at this point is we've seen tension, there are different types, and some come within an individual. So that's like an interior discomfort. That tension can come from so many different ways. It can all come in learning and practice of all sorts of things. But if we think about it in the context of this episode, something in you is experiencing a disruption or a discomfort versus an encounter, which is actually between two people. So there's something about this disagreement, which is testing our trust and what this dynamic is in this relationship. And then there's more systemic things, which bring in group dynamics, group norms, group values, and things that tend to bring up broader conflict. Um, so there's almost like interior discomfort, relational disagreement, and then group conflict.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I really like the fact that those words are discreetly tied to different things. So the discomfort is the internal one, the disagreement you require another person to be in disagreement. Like, well, sometimes you can disagree with yourself. That's a whole other kettle of fish. Is that this kettle of fish? Anyway, then conflict is within groups. I feel like having those in our head, because I feel like a lot of these things feel synonymous and get interchanged, but I feel like there's almost like a nice little okay, I'm feeling discomfort within myself. When I'm uncomfortable, when I notice this discomfort, maybe that's a signal that I need to reflect on this before I bring it into an encounter where there may be disagreement. Yes. So I can ready myself for the disagreement and navigate that if that's something that is typically difficult for you as an individual, which I don't think I know many people who are like, yeah, easy, let's go. That have a level of self-awareness and willingness to be in like tight relationships. Do you?
SPEAKER_03I'd need to think about that. Yeah. I need to think about I I think like I yeah, I definitely think it's it would be hard for the majority. It would come down to how well practiced it is in within that particular relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yes. How what trust do you've uh tested, essentially?
SPEAKER_03How many cookies in the jar?
SPEAKER_00How many cookies are in the cookie jar? Hopefully lots.
SPEAKER_03Well, and to your point, you have the moment itself and working out whether that's actually the moment to talk about it or not. Um, we had our own. We we did the app not long ago, the co-creator app, and we're like, we haven't hit a single snafu. Like business wise, yes, but relationship-wise, no. And we had our first like London's heat wave, just really was tipped.
SPEAKER_00Took us out. Took us out the whole week. There was like three days where we were just like, fuck my life, what is going on? Everything feels hard.
SPEAKER_03And there was just no, for me, there was just no difference. I went to a shaman and he explained people where he talked about the candle and there being a wick, right? And you light a candle.
SPEAKER_00I thought you were saying that you went to a shaman after this experience.
SPEAKER_02After every wave.
SPEAKER_03If someone could get the heat out of my body, I feel like it hasn't left. Truly, I I lay on the couch and I just think my feet are so hot. It is so hot. Oh man. Back to the show, but back to this. He talked about the candle and the candle wick. And I've just, it's it's not a perfect one, but I it's easy to visualize. Light the candle wick. And your regulation, your capacity to process before you respond is the wick. And sometimes you are lighting a candle with no wick. And I feel like that week was lighting any candle was being lit where there was no wick. Yes. And so you hit things that would have been a conversation, aren't a conversation in those moments. And so we had our first moments where the dynamic wasn't working, we were getting frustrated with each other, things weren't feeling coming up. And we have an end-a-week reflection, which I could encourage anyone to do that has any kind of like really important relationship dynamic where you're working through things very regularly and at velocity, or just in general, they're healthy, but we have reflections. We talk about our own individual reflections for ourselves, our reflections for the business, and then our reflections on the co-founding dynamic specifically. And all of a sudden, shit was just coming up for me in an unprepared way. And we still managed to get through the conversation with a lot of love and tenderness, but we didn't get to a full resolution in that particular conversation. We're also time bound, but it was like it felt like a movie scene.
SPEAKER_00We were at the train station. I walked you to the train station. It really felt like the ending, I'm not even at the ending of a movie, but it felt like a moment in a movie. It was like the we got into the denu what the new one was the end of the the the top bit where everything's the crescendo. That's the one. And yeah, I had to hug you and watch you walk away into the chain station.
SPEAKER_03And I never looked back. No, I did. I'm sure I did and waved. Yeah, I think we waved. But we were going to then have it the next day. And I'd gone out and had an unexpected night out with a friend, and then you had something the next day, and we ended up having the follow-up on Monday instead of the planned Saturday morning because we're living together, so we couldn't do it Saturday morning. And as someone who would identify as having an anxious attachment style, for me to sit between a conversation and a resolution for 72 hours in the past would have been unbearable for me. But I went about that weekend. I mean, we had a check-in at one point, being like, hey, yeah, good right to do this on Monday. It wasn't just this thing we put under the carpet. And we had a version of a conversation Saturday morning because some things had come up for you, but like that got us into like, hey, did you you're good to sit, like we can have this conversation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think the key part of that was when we were, I was getting ready for the wedding. I was doing my makeup, and it was a really Yeah, you were sitting on the toilet.
SPEAKER_01Lid was shut. I was actually just in there sitting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do have some boundaries within our relationship. Um, but to be fair, I wouldn't have cared. Either way, you were sitting on the toilet, Lyd was shut, I was doing my makeup, and it was basically this really lovely peak girlhood moment of just but almost like mature, let's ladyhood, womanhood, whatever moment where it was just like, do you feel better after us actually sharing it? And do you feel like okay enough in this? Like, I love you. There's only moving forward from here. And I think for any attachment style, that's helpful to hear. Facts. And I I have this vivid image of us in that moment, and I'm like, yeah, that was where we knew that things we could go about our weekend just fine and have a lovely time, knowing that we're gonna come back to our Monday. And yeah, we might bring up some other things that are getting into a level of specificity that will get under our skin and feel uncomfortable. And I know I can navigate it because the end goal is clear, the end goal isn't rocky, nothing's gonna be pulled out from underneath me. And I think when we're younger and in less mature relationships, whether it's friendships or like romantic relationships, for me, there's always been this fear of, oh, this is gonna be the thing that ends it. They're gonna walk away, they're gonna leave. Or I'm going to. Yeah. Because once I'm done with something, I'm done. So then there's the fear of it being done for you because you can be that way. And then there's also the fear that someone's gonna do that to you. So yeah, I just wanted to call out that one specific moment because I do think that was really pivotal in our relationship. And that uh it highlights that moment where you have added load to a relationship, you pressure tested it, and it's held.
SPEAKER_03And also the inquiry to go further into it, because you said a comment, and then I think the thing that followed that was some like that sense of feeling overwhelmed. And those also are the moments that you can be like, yeah, that's really tough, and not ask more questions because you're worried about what it would do. But there are so many little openings when both people are in a good place to take those moments and then have conversations and ask the questions. And this isn't the conversation we still need to have, but it's created the space for it. And also, I don't know how you felt, but I felt like it was more important that I had reflected before the conversation happened than the timing of the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Agreed. Yeah, and it's the setup of those conversations. Oh, sorry, you go.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, you go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's the setup of those conversations of like, is this the right time and place to open Pandora's box? Because I I think deferring, which we did in that moment, was supportive. Deferring that through us, like I was conscious that you were going to meet a friend. I wanted you to have a lovely evening. You were really excited to see this person. I wanted you to know that we were going to be good so that you could enjoy your night. And then the same thing um for the weekend. Like, obviously, I also didn't want to be sitting there thinking about it as well. And I also would uh would say that I I identify with having an anxious attachment style, and so that was just good for both of us that morning. But I do think that deferring can be supportive and it's not the same as disappearing, which is an important distinction to make. And I think there's a level of I don't know, emotional maturity, self-inquiry, willingness to be in hard things, love for the other person that all comes together to say, like, hey, I'm not disappearing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And also just again, more moments that tell you actually, if I voice how I feel, this relationship gets better. You know, this is not even an equalizer. This is oh, actually, this gets better. Oh, I get to be sooner next time. We don't have to hit these things. Oh, I get to share more, oh, I can share a lot more things about flaws or how I'm feeling, and and know that it becomes less of an event.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. It becomes less of a big deal because there's little micro moments rather than you're waiting for the eruption. I do think something that really helps with this as well, or that I've noticed within us that has helped me a lot, both of us are super perceptive and we read each other's face and bodies constantly. And so we're traversing into new grounds with each other, and we're navigating new conversations, new concepts, new frameworks, new whatever a lot. And so sometimes both of us go into our own little heads and we're off in like Pluto, and I don't know where you've gone. In my head, you hated what I said, and off you popped, and you're on a different planet now. Whereas you're just like, oh, this is a really cool idea that I could see going in about 800 bazillion directions, and I'm just processing that. And so I do remember early on in the piece, one of us said to each other, I don't remember who, what's going on for you right now? Because I'm telling myself a story that you hated what I said, and then it was like a no, absolutely not. This is where I was going. And that was such a lesson for us that I do think we have to keep reminding ourselves of, because I think we still do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, of they don't hate my idea, they're just thinking.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes, yes, yeah. We know perfect yet. Yeah, no perfect yet. I and we're not going for it. No, and we are very expressive beings. Uh, and so then when we don't, when there's no expression, yeah, we assume bad things as opposed to thinking face or whatever it might be, but it is just having all of those tiny little cues. Um also, this is all in the context of assuming that the tension is a choice. There are so many relational dynamics, and I want to caveat all this. We're not talking about violence, by the way. Just for I don't know if you just draw without saying, but yes, the there are so many layers to that type of dynamic. And the caveats and the types and the things that we shared earlier, it's not on this spectrum. It's a whole other category of thing that we're talking about and requires different skill set and different tools and a different level of support to navigate. So we'll just put that to the side if Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We're in a baseline healthy generally. We're in like the coaching realm of like things are pretty good and they can get better, not in the things are not okay and dysfunctional.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and we're starting to go now into I think like there are certain um workplaces, there are certain communities, there are certain causes, issues, etc., when the point of the coming together is inherently uh the tension is part of what the group is solving for. The group is coming together to solve things where people sit on different edges. There are things that have ethical or value based, there are social impact work. There are so many spaces where tension is inherent in the actual place itself. And so this idea as well of how we think about it as actually like a generative thing. Yes, there's the individual relational component of that. And then actually, there's a lot of research around being in a group experience where the group moves through tension, has like all of these really, really cool benefits around how the individual actually learns and how sustain that changes, but also certain things we kind of actually experience as individuals and you have to go through as a group. And then so much research around when a group has almost been through something together as well, and you've been able to resolve that and the cookie jar builds and trust builds, and you can create really, really um, I don't want to use the word language high performing because I've clearly just put my work hat on as soon as I started thinking about it. But you create these really um uh constructive environments where people get to thrive, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I actually think the workplace is a really good example of, you know, people talk shit about working in corporate and working in companies, and you know, everyone should just work for themselves. And it's like, yeah, well, then who's gonna pick up your rubbish if everyone works for themselves? We need people in full-time jobs, okay? Um, but I do think that something that I've noticed from doing both and working for myself for four years, then going back into corporate and then coming back out again, is the level of feedback that you are getting, not even just from performance reviews and frequent feedback that's like built in, just every day in meetings when you're bumping up against maybe a differing in opinion or difference in strategy, or just someone you don't particularly like, but you are on the same team and you're moving towards a similar outcome or the same outcome even. The way you have to navigate those situations, I think you learn a lot faster than when you're on your own in your own brain for a whole day, not doing that. Like there's just so much more input that you're having to calibrate and then change your behavior based on. And it's something that I think about a lot because I work with creative teams. Creativity is so inherently vulnerable. One of the things that I learned through one of the leaders that I worked with uh is that Pixar does this thing where uh their senior creative team, it's called the Brains Trust. I don't know, you've probably heard of it too, from a leadership perspective. But basically they bring together their senior creative team for an unfinished movie, they talk about uh what it should look like, what should happen, but the director always has the final say. So they can take all of their peers' feedback, take all their ideas, have everything pressure tested, and at the end of the day, they still feel like they have the autonomy to do what they want to do with their film, but they're building this beautiful dynamic and relationship of hey, bring your unpolished things here. Let's figure this out together and let's make this the best it can possibly be because we all want that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then as an individual and as a creative, that makes you better too.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And also what I'm hearing there is that there are structures in place that allow the creative to be most free. And one of the things that comes up is the absence of tension, and we think everything's peaceful all the time, and then people have the most spaciousness. And that's actually not true. Deliberately creating those structures where you know you're going in and this is what you're gonna get, you've been able to prepare yourself, you've been able to get yourself into that moment, you're contributing to other people, so it feels like it's not just all this stuff coming at you. You're getting to also constructively help other people's creative process, but like you have created the container where, to your point, trust and vulnerability can thrive. But then all of the flow and effect of that, of who's benefiting, is the creativity then gets to actually come to the front instead of all of the other things that the creativity can get hidden behind.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. When there's conflict or dissent, which we haven't quite tapped into yet, but dissent is this courageous tension. And we really like this phrase of courageous tension because that's kind of what we're talking about here, because it improves group thinking and it might go against the dominant view. And so when we think about psychological safety, you brought up high-performing teams. I always remind people that the purpose of psychological safety is to create high-performing teams. That's where the research came from. And I think a lot of people forget that because it's been spoken about so much as one of those things where it's almost like you've lost its origins because it's become something else and applied in so many different ways. But high-performing teams require psychological safety because you need to be able to go against the dominant view. You need to be able to say I disagree. You need to be able to put an idea out there that is completely outside of the box and feel safe and secure enough to do so. Uh, and so I really like this idea of dissent because dissent sounds sounds a bit scary. It sounds like an uprising.
SPEAKER_03A rebellion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03The courageous tension. I can get behind that. We can get behind that. And also it has to be acknowledged that there's so much inherent privilege in, and to your point of psychological safety, because power structures exist, especially at work. And so there is an inherent privilege that can come with, am I actually safe to share? And even as you start to put those things in place that we've said, different people are still going to experience those barriers to sharing and feeling safe differently. Um, and I actually writing without discernment the ability to say no, that is like it actually takes me. I I'll maybe tell a story. Uh towards the end of my last role, I got a phone call about something, and I remember just saying, I'm not fucking doing that. And they said to me, Caitlin, you have to understand, like, this is actually a this we're not coming to you for your perspective opinion on this. Like this is actually a decision. And I said, then I guess you'll have to execute it. You can tell the team that that decision's been made and you can get them to redo the work.
SPEAKER_04I remember this.
SPEAKER_03I'm not. I'm just not. And look, don't get me wrong, I have been on all ends of a spectrum around like my how much I've agreed with a decision that I've had to, whatever. But there's a difference between do I disagree with this person? And is there a values and integrity alignment piece? And again, that's also on a spectrum. And sometimes businesses, you have to make really tough decisions. But this had gone into a place that I just could not physically execute on. And that was with one stakeholder. And then another one called me to be like, hey, you've heard. And I had to like commit into this. But I remember being like, I'm willing to get fired. And what a privilege is that that I have over the past whatever in actually in preparing for us to be able to do this. But I'd created that financial safety for myself that I could say no. And so there is this courageous piece, but there's also inherent privilege in the layers. And so what we will get into is how do you create those places that bring down more and more of those layers for people?
SPEAKER_00100%. Because the other part of leadership that I feel like a lot of people, and we spoke about this in the previous episode, around leaders coming in and just saying, This is my leadership style, and you have to act accordingly. The best leaders know how to be flexible and to flex with the needs of their teams. And this is all part of the psychological safety piece of high-performing teams. It's in this uh group dynamic that we all understand we are marching towards the same goal. We are in this together. And I might not always get it, it might not always pan out the way I want it to. We might not go with my idea, but my commitment to the vision is greater than the commitment to myself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And similar to what we were speaking about earlier, it's often rightly or wrongly, it's easier to practice in that space advocating for other people. Like I think my conviction, for example, came from it wasn't actually me that was going to be impacted. And that courageous dissent, often, if I think about going against the dominant view, sometimes we're advocating for ourselves and somewhat times we're actually advocating for a lot of people. And uh in flexing that muscle, that can lead to then more confidence to be like, oh, now I actually I get to do that for myself too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I also think though, with what you just said around you were not going to be the one impacted, yes, by their decision, but you also had uh you have a level of self-inquiry where you know where your values are, you know where your integrity starts and ends, and you were going to be impacted by this. Yes. And so, yes, from the scenario that you're talking about, because I know which one you're referring to, yeah. It wasn't necessarily you, but yes, it was you also in a really big way. And I remember having the integrity conversation with you when you were like, uh this no bueno. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know the ins and outs, but more so from the integrity piece of where you were sitting. And this is an important thing to have. What we're touching on now, you've got disagreement, conflict, dissent, all these things. But at the heart of all of that is knowing who you are, having your internal compass, and knowing that when things go sideways, which they will, because life, oh life, uh you know how you're gonna want to act and that you're not gonna regret moving, moving in a particular way. And all these things are learnings, but yeah, the internal compass piece is really important here too.
SPEAKER_03Totally. And I it is also just this practice thing with all of this, because then there were other conversations, and actually on that one, we're able to get, I wouldn't say the best outcome, but we're able to actually get a better outcome. Yeah, went into so many different conversations after that, in a grounded way, more assertive on certain things, and then also coming out into friendships to a point, it's a great place to practice. The conviction that I gained in that period of time, really practicing this particular muscle around sitting in just my own discomfort, having disagreements, group conflict because there was values alignment, all of the different types of tension that we've talked about, kind of they were all at play at some point over this kind of time period. I actually do feel more confident in my own ability to assess how I feel, structure that conversation, go in and have it differently in my personal life.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03100% more sensitive to your point that workplace is actually being a place where you can just practice it for certain people. Again, I mentioned this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's up to every individual to understand what your low risk and high-risk environments are. And again, not talking about violence, talking about from a particular level of safety, for lack of a better word. Um, when I'm coaching people and we're talking about them venturing into new spaces and they have to practice new skills, I always encourage them to practice in places where they feel really confident and comfortable first. So either with your best friend or with your partner, one of the ones that I always use as an example is the idea of asserting myself and saying, like, oh, I want X, or I don't want to do that. I'd rather do this. I've always been a little bit more go with the flow. Even if I wanted to do something, I'll be like, ah, I won't upset the Apple cart. But it got to a point where it was just like, I am actually really bothered that I didn't say it. And so I just started practicing with Hayden. And I don't know, if he wanted Chinese for dinner and I want an Indian, I'd be like, no, I don't want Chinese, I want Indian. And just like full stop. And that doesn't mean we got it, but I still said it. And even things like particular emotions that were coming up for me. I now just say to him, I'm angry and I need to talk to you later. Or I'm angry. I'm feeling angry right now, and it's gonna go away. But right now, that's how I'm feeling. See, it's a practice space in the safe space. Exactly. And so I always recommend people to do that. So just know where your practice grounds are and know where your battlefields are, and don't practice and try not to, if you can, practice in battlefields. That's where the outcomes can be the yeah, the most dicey.
SPEAKER_03And it can be practicing, which is what I was also hearing with the Indian and then Chinese example with what's for dinner. It's actually just practicing that your needs and feelings and desires and boundaries and whatever it is, they matter. They matter, they matter so much. And I think sometimes we question that so much, or I know in the past I've questioned that so much that it's come out in the way it wasn't intended because it's brood. Yes. And so you're trying to tell yourself that it's fine, it doesn't matter, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it does. And so actually, it's like how do I practice along the way? Um, even going through the process of working out how you think or feel, but also just starting that communication to your point. And that's not even the disagreement dissent, because we said there's that internal discomfort. So I can have a conversation with you about my internal discomfort, and then that builds to me having more conversation with you, handling my stuff. Then I get to start talking to you about you and me. And there's that layered piece to it as well.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And I think a lot of people in that moment, when what's an important watch out, I would say, from people, I think two people who are both reasonably emotionally mature, I would say, um, hair flick, uh, who still have difficult moments and still have this uh disagreement and discomfort. When someone is telling you about their own discomfort, try not to take it personally. When they're giving you the gift of sharing their discomfort with you, this is real-time regulation for you to be able to sit back and say, This person is giving me a gift, I'm gonna respect this. When we get to the conversation where it's about both of us, then we hash it out. But right now I'm going to listen. And I think that's something I'm definitely practicing as someone who also has a low tolerance to perceived rejection. Yeah. Yep. Uh, and just as a sensitive sod, you know, that's something that I'm really sitting with of taking off my myopic lens and being this is not about me right now. This is a discomfort that my friend is experiencing, or this is a discomfort that Hayden is experiencing, that I need to just sit with. Yeah. Respectfully, this not about you, girl. Aimed at me.
unknownYeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Aimed at myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aim. Hey, hi, it is me. I am.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there's so many things. I think what we're what we're getting at with all of this is that there are so many things that happen in a split second. And with practice, you get to regulate yourself in real time, you get to metabolize what's happening, you get to navigate things and conversations in meaningful ways, but it's not going to be pretty every time. It's going to be messy, it's going to be hard, it's going to feel really difficult. But when you learn, when you reflect on it and you are committed to doing better next time, that's where the best relationships live.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100%. If we were going to start, maybe I'm with like an encouragement that for people. And I think mine would be practice saying sorry. Practice that re-engagement. And I don't mean taking responsibility for shit that is not yours and a performative apology to try and get things back to and taking on other people's shit. That's not what I mean.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_03But if you look back and go, that wasn't my finest moment, those moments where you get to go in, put so many cookies in that jar for both people.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So look where you can say sorry this week or just say, This is not my, that wasn't my finest moment. I think that's a really, really smooth way into it. It doesn't feel like it assumes responsibility of the whole thing. It just says that wasn't my finest moment. And it's a great conversation opener. Mine edge for the week is look for moments where you might have disappeared and see if there is something that you can do to defer instead. Is there a is there something you can communicate to signal to the person that you're not disappearing, you're in fact deferring because you need time to think, or you need something else, or just not the right moment to bring this up. So yeah. Happy relationshipping, friends, because it's wild out there.
SPEAKER_03And connection and deeper connection lives on the other side of the discomfort. And sometimes that discomfort is tension and all the different types that it takes up. And a quick little plug: we have built a resources hub that's sitting alongside the podcast. Some of the episodes we've been building our own resources to specifically get you to work through or help you to work through some of the moments we've brought up in the pod. Sometimes it's sharing resources that already exist out in the world. But please check it out if any of these things are tickling your brain. And if you want to see more resources in certain areas, we would absolutely love to hear from you. Perfect.
SPEAKER_00Okay, love you bye.
SPEAKER_01Okay, love you bye.