Are you play deprived?

When did you last play? Not rest. Not scroll. Not exercise with a target or socialise with an agenda. Actually play. Purposeless, unscripted, a little bit ridiculous.

In this episode Caitlin and Chantelle get into one of the most radical things an adult can do: absolutely nothing useful. We explore what play actually is, why we stopped doing it, what it's costing us, and what it might feel like to let ourselves have it back.

We get into:

• The gendered conditioning that turns women's leisure into productivity - the exercise class, the book club, the dinner party
• Why pure unstructured play gets coded as childish, self-indulgent, or wasteful.
• The dopamine trap that makes play excruciating for high achievers, because the brain that's wired to chase a goal genuinely doesn't know what to do when there isn't one.
• The grief of lost play, and the version of yourself who used to move through the world with more lightness, before you learned that your value was your output.

And they ask the question that might undo you: Is there a version of you that used to play freely that you miss? What happened to them, and do you want them back?

Play isn't the reward for getting everything done. It's part of how you stay human while you do it.

You don't have to earn it. You just have to give yourself permission.

If you’re curious about having more play in your life - here is the play quiz we discuss in the episode! https://playstyles.nifplay.org/

DM us once you have done it! We’d love to hear what play style you got and how that resonates for you.

We go wherever connection lives.

If anything in this episode stirs something big, please bring it to a friend, a therapist, or someone who loves you.

Made with intention by Meus Studios.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hello, hello, welcome to Existential Thread. I'm Chantelle. And I'm Caitlin. We got some feedback that we should introduce ourselves so that you know who's squawking at you. So thank you, Gabby. We would also like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land in which we chat, learn, and share, and welcome any First Nations people listening to our episode. So we went to an Irish dancing class a few weeks ago, and it really reminded us how fun it was to be shit at something.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Just to have a little laugh, just to play around, just to learn something while you're playing around, uh, and just meet some other people in a really fun way.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Giving some people some context, we actually have a series of one right now. There will be more, but it is called If You Do It, I'll Do It. And basically, Caitlin came up to me one day and had two pieces of paper in her hand. One had Irish an Irish dance class on it, and the other one had trained for our next half marathon. Luckily, I chose the Irish dancing class because Gil is not ready to be training for anything anytime soon. And so we we made good on the promise. We looked up a class and showed up. It was a bit of a false start the first week because it was 34 degrees or something like this, and the woman didn't show up. Cancelled in a heat wave. Cancelled in a heat wave, which was, you know, both a blessing and a curse. But we went back the next week and we did it, and it was so much fun. Dripping in sweat, learning choreography, and so many giggles.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

And then practicing our jig on the way home.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Oh my gosh, yes. In public. What cringe. Who feels embarrassed? Don't know her. Don't know her at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I don't feel as embarrassed as I should. Maybe that's the encouragement that we should do more of those things because it gets you out of caring about embarrassment.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Oh, 100%. I feel like our like perception or our thought of something that could be embarrassing is always so much worse than what it actually is. This, the Irish dancing and everything, made us uh think about play and our relationship to play. And I'm curious, outside of the Irish jig, when do you think you last play? Because I think you're a playful person. Both of us are playful people. But as we were researching for this episode, basically play bait tells us that it's not exercise, it's not necessarily hobby you're good at, it's like play, it's almost purposeless. So I'm curious, when do you last play?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah, so it can be sport, but it's not like weightlifting. There are there's got to be imagination and creativity and some other fun things, and we can get into that. I definitely just rely on being a playful person in my life as a default, as opposed to just seeking out a lot of structured play. And I did go to an Afro Beats dance thing on the weekend, but I that's probably still not play in that sense. I think the most playful thing that I've done was when I was in the British countryside and I was just running down different trails and I was going over water, and I had this little game with myself about following different paths and see where they would take us. And I had the full moment of like hands in the air, spinning in circles, smiling and giggling out loud.

unknown 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

You know, it's play.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

That's yeah, if it's not, I'm miserable because that's that's that stands out as a fun thing. So if I'm still at a loss for play, then there's definitely an absence of play in my life.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

And there's definitely a version of that story for people that would be miserable running through trails, up hills. I don't think they would be swirling and twirling and dancing and singing and laughing about that. And so I think you know, you you hit on something perfect there around it's about what it does in your body and how you feel about it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yes, yes. And also, the for me, there was that connection to something that I did as play as a child, too. And so it's conjuring up a lot of other things in the moment that was part nostalgia, part present day. Um, but what about you? What was your last play moment?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Um, it's interesting that you bring up the nostalgia piece all like back to when you were a kid, because I wrote this silly little story on the weekend for absolutely no reason. And it was about the first time that I stole something, and it was a packet of tic-tacks, by the way, and it was done unintentionally. And I sent it to my mum because I thought it would make her chuckle. And in the story, I basically say, now I don't know what happened after I stole said tic-tacks. I think I might have kept it quiet from my mum. And I only realized once I got in the car because I had this cute little pocket on a new jacket, and I that I was so amazed that the tic-tacks fit in my pocket. I was like seven years old or like six or something. So I was like, oh my gosh, mum said I could have this little treat and it fits in my pocket. This is so cool. And then lo and behold, I walk out of the store with the Tic Tac still in my pocket, not knowing that I'd done it. So then I get in the back seat and I realize, and I'm like, and I'm and my mum's reply is I think if I had known about it, you know I would have walked you straight back into that store and made you pay for it. And so I was like, I'm sorry to be challenging your integrity, mom. But it was very funny that I remember this. She was like, I don't know about no stolen tic-tacks.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

So this is new to me. But my the big takeaway here was there was not like there was no intent to steal. No, there was no intent. As soon as you said uh I stole something, I was like, Oh yeah, I had sticky fingers when I was a teenager. And then you were like, oh, I accidentally walked out with tic-tacks, and I was like, oh, retreats back into the bush. We're on a different, we're on a different page.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Do not tell that story. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I feel like um I I think I'm still like this as an adult today, of like, if I'm holding something but it's out of like if I'm holding a lot of different things, and let's say one of them's my phone, and then I've got an object underneath my phone, that doesn't exist to me anymore. That is like that's in my Yes, yes, that's now part of me. Yeah you know, and you just walk straight out, or like that's yeah, that's definitely happened to me a couple times. If I ever get caught shoplifting or there's a picture of me on a on a um shop front saying this woman stole something, don't let her in anymore, she's banned from the premises, it's gonna be because I didn't realise I was holding it.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, look, I feel like there would be a lot of people that would relate to that. I feel like that one's easy and easy enough to do, enough to do. But okay, back to the writing part of that though. As much as it is to learn about. Okay, back to the back to the writing component of that playful part. That play that felt inherently playful.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yes, because I was chuckling as I was writing it, and I also had given myself like I didn't want it to be long. It was purposeless because I wasn't using it for content or anything like that. Because I think that's the other thing. That writing is something that's always been a part of my life as a child. Um, and actually in this story, I write about the fact that it wasn't about the Tic Tacs that I actually remember from this. It was that I looked at a magazine as as we were going through the checkout, which is the reason why I think I forgot about it. Is I was looking at the magazine list and I told my mum, I'm gonna do that one day. And she was like, What? Magazines? And I was like, No, I'm gonna write a book. I don't know where I got this from. And there must have been like children's books. You know the golden ones? Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

With the golden spine? Yes, exactly. The golden spine line. Yes, yeah. There must have been those at the checkout. And I said, no, I want to be an I want to, I wanna write books. What is that called? And she was like an author, and she like chuckled and was just like, oh, we'll have to find your publisher soon enough. So I've always been interested and wanted to write, but sometimes I do it for a purpose, and sometimes I do it for absolutely no purpose. And so I feel like that's when it feels playful for me. I don't know if that's the correct way that Dr. Stuart Brown, who has been studying this for a very long time, would say that this is determined to be play, but that feels playful to me, and I get a lot of joy out of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I feel like we have so many parallel stories of our like writing as we were kids and our aspiring writing hopes and ambitions, um, which is why I still believe that we're gonna co-author a book as well together at some point in time. So I have no doubt. I have absolutely no doubt. The criteria for play, and you meant you referenced uh Stuart Brown and through the research that he's done over decades, play and then to get all of the benefits that we'll get into around play. The definition of it actually includes so it's self-chosen or self-directed. So like you had some sense of agency in this. Yes, forced fun can become fun eventually, but this is like you've actually you've self-chosen or it's self-directed, uh, it's intrinsically motivated. So that is um the uh more value is placed on the process and it's an internal motivation versus the outcome and a reward that sits outside of you at the end, which is an extrinsic motivation. So I'm gonna get paid for this as an example, would be something that doesn't count. So it was is the motivation coming from something that purely exists inside of yourself? Uh, is it structured or ordered based on rules in the player's mind? And this is probably the one that I had to grapple with a little bit um in terms of getting to the understanding of the definition, because this is where you've created a game and you're setting rules. Or so, in the example of your story, you've probably set some parameters around what the story needed to exist within. Um, and it's imaginative, so does it have a creative component to that? Like, does your mind actually get to imagine, create, dream, the other possibilities? Uh, and then and just being in a playful state of mind. So, are you engaged? Um, free from stress is probably a hard uh place for many adults to actually sit in. Um, but that is part of just being in a playful state of mind. So those are the things that make up actual play from an academic perspective.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, I think the playful state of mind there as well, like the free from stress and judgment or external consequences is such a big one. I I think that part is a lot easier for some people to access than others. And I think both you and I play is a trait for us. We move through the world with an underlying level of playfulness. We are optimistic, curious, and we get through most situations, probably even some darker situations, through humor and level levity. Right. And so I think having that as a trait, there are certain parts of like that play definition that I feel like we almost have an unfair advantage to access almost all of the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yes, yes, because one does tend to lead to the other. It's not that it's a prerequisite by any stretch, but you just have those entry points into something when you're kind of in that more receptive place, I guess, is almost how to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah, and I and I do think with the play stuff, it's not just about being funny or flippant or carefree. You know, it's it's genuinely about, I think personally, around like the adaptability and how you uh engage with challenge, your resilience, all of these things. I think you can navigate some of your most challenging times with a little bit of playfulness when it's your when it's like almost a personality trait.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, so maybe this will start to come up, but also is the the trap in being a playful person is that actually you believe it plays a big role in your life, but maybe there isn't as much play as you realize. So both sides of the coin. So it's a natural advantage, yes. But then if you think about the definition that we just heard, there could still be an absence of play.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

A non-center. Yeah. What do you do in your life that you think constitutes this play?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Well, this where I got really stuck on the structured or ordered part of that. I thought that there was a lot of play in my life. I and I think part of the reason why I miss being alone a little bit is like I'm dancing when I'm by myself, I'm singing when I'm by myself. I'm like, Sunny, I cackle with Sunny all day. I think it's also why I miss Sunny so much because I just played with him a lot. Um, like the trail running part was fun for me, and um, and we'll probably get to this, but there's a play quiz that we'll get our listeners to do. Um, but it was actually in looking at that, where it talks about one of my play default stars is this dreamer concept. And the one part in particular that really resonated was this concept of being an observer, and it gives you little suggestions of something that you can do. And for and it talked about it's not just that I observe the world, but I like observing people in play. And what was really cool about that was like it's like book a ticket, go to a concert, do a thing, and it made me, and it's like I was like, this is why I love live sport. I love watching live sport. I go to a new city or a town, I have no idea. I have no idea right now I'm in Lisbon, I could not tell you a single tourist thing to do. Because for me, the funnest thing is just to go sit and observe people. Like I went to the concert on the weekend. My favorite clip from that is I actually have a video when I'm facing away from the music and I'm recording my friend's face. Like I'm watching her watch the show, and that was just the funnest moment for me. So I think that that is something that is a really playful part of me. But again, I don't know if there's enough structure to call play. So maybe I maybe I'm play deprived. Who knows? The more that the more I look into the research, I'm like, should I be like, am I play deprived? But yeah, but you go, you go, and we'll get into play deprivation, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Um, I would say when I was doing it, I haven't found a studio here, but pottery for sure, because it's so messy, you make shit for no reason. Um, I would make pieces and then just break it just for the sake of like being in the process. There's also like step-by-step rules, or not rules, but there's there is a step-by-step process. Like you need to need the clay before you put it on the wheel, and then you need to do all of the things before you can make your cylinder. Um, and I also made up my own rules around having to fight against being good at it, and then resisted once I became actually quite good at it, uh, to turn it into a business. And there I had made over a hundred pieces, and so many people were like, you can start selling this, you should start doing markets. And I was like, dug my heels in. I was like, no, this is gonna be fun. As soon as you as soon as you add money to something and it becomes a business, you take out that level of playfulness. And even I'd made a few gifts for friends who had asked me to make like wedding gifts for people. And I was just, as soon as, and whilst I loved doing it, it was a totally different air as I was creating those pieces versus the ones that I'm like, let's see where this goes. What's this gonna do? What's this glaze gonna do? I was like, oh my gosh, please don't put this in the kiln next to something that is bright red and mine is cream, because then it's gonna come out pink. And there's just so many things that go into um uh your piece coming out the way that you imagined it. And honestly, it's just like sending it up to the kiln gods and being like, whatever's gonna be will be. And that actually taught me a lot about my recovering perfectionist ways. And I learned so much about being yeah, showing up to something that you're quite shit at initially, and then once you get over that hump of being relatively good at something, to keep showing up, to learn new things, and to not get stuck in the desire for everything to want to be good. Keep your keep your exploration. I feel like that was that was my challenge to keep it as play.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

The idea of controlling the outcome too. The I the idea you had to totally succumb to this idea that you could control uh an outcome as well. And so I and that's almost forces you then to enjoy the process, which is a little bit like yoga for me. I'm like, I'm so bad at yoga that I had to just learn to love the process because the outcome was never gonna get me over the line. But it is then I it's almost like you have to be doing something where you can't, no amount of just thinking about it, force, or going four days a week. I mean, obviously, you start to improve in both of these things, and we speak all the time about being gifted people, this idea that just with enough grit or resilience or whatever it might be, you should therefore be good at it more quickly and you want that gratification earlier. And then when you're into a situation where you just it's too bad, it's so sad, you then thought actually like, okay, wait, maybe I could just enjoy the process instead.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Oh, 100%. And I think for me, the gifted part was actually I should be good at it without trying. And so for the things that I had to try for, I was like, uh resilience, where are you? I don't know what you are. I don't what? What do you mean I'm not good at it straight away? So it was even just like the commitment to coming back to something. I I could I feel like I could write a whole thesis on what pottery taught me about life and people and myself. It was a whole situation.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

I'm sure you will at some point, yeah. And you mentioned the explor you mentioned the explorer, which was what you got in the play piece.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, in the play quiz, I got the explorer, which honestly does not surprise me at all. I also feel like when you layer in the fact that my sun sign is a Sagittarius and that my human design is a manifesting generator, but the explorer to be my number one and the organizer to be my last play play thing, I am not surprised. But the explorer is about adventuring, researching, tinkering, entrepreneurial stuff, and emotional explorer. So I don't, I don't know if there could have been one that summarized my experience um more adequately, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Well, and what's interesting, and maybe this is where and it's important to not get hung up on the definitions, because what's fascinating to me is when you go into the examples of explorer, like hiking and traveling in new environments, just in general, uh really do they count as play in this situation. But with hiking, I wouldn't have necessarily put it into that category of meeting all the other parts of the definition. And so it's really just like the pursuit of pleasure in ways that get you creative and force you to be present and and something where it is more about the internal process rather than external reward. I feel like the most accessible parts of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

And I think also as adults, we've got a lot of stories about play. We we did an episode recently about our stories and and what we hold on to and whether they're helpful or hindering. But I also think that play is a huge one that we have stories around. Um because as we grow up, there are certain things that we learn are acceptable or unacceptable. But I'm curious if there's actually something that you would love to do but won't because of how it would look.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

I definitely have versions of that from when I was younger, and so I know that this idea of uh uh something being embarrassing or a fear of judgment has definitely been something that has influenced decisions for me, especially around to play as I was when I was younger. I think now it's interesting because the combination of going and then traveling and being new places all of the time, I default to a lot of my play being a much more of a solo endeavor. And so it's not something that I'm consciously thinking about, oh, I wish I could do this, and having that fear of judgment that maybe I had when I was younger. That being said, if I think about play that I would like to do and I can start to feel that discomfort, there is a part of me that that's going there knowing, oh, I'm going to be uncomfortable doing that because I am going to have to get through that fear of the the judgment of not being good at the thing in public. So I don't think it's necessary, I haven't got a thing that might really want to do it, but I'm not. That being said, there are things I really want to do more dance classes in general. Like there are a few things that I know that once I'm in that situation and I want to do more of that in my life, that I am going to have to get over an old hurdle.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Yeah, I think that's interesting because it's what I'm hearing is that there's nothing that you wouldn't, there's nothing that you wouldn't do. It's just that you feel that you want to do something and that there is going to be this challenge of the discomfort and getting over the discomfort of not being good at something, but it's not enough to stop you. Whereas there's a version of you where it might have stopped you.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Definitely when I was younger, I really wanted to play AFL when I was a kid, and I didn't because I was too embarrassed to do that. I think about like drama or singing or certain things in the past, there were versions of me that would have just fucking loved. Like just absolutely frothed having that as part of my life. Uh, but I didn't go down that path. That yeah, exactly. I would do it anyway, but I know that uh I would be bright red.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yes. My little face. Yeah, and I think that's also the cost sometimes. Which is so cool. I think being in those scenarios, that's where that discomfort gets to turn into, oh, I can do this and I didn't die. You know, I I always think of it. I always think of Mr. Chow jumping out of a boot and being like, but did you die in the hangover? I think it's the hangover channel. It's just like, oh, were you hungover? We would like, did something happen to you? But did you die? Because he died for like a little bit or something. Anyway, it's just, I just, it's his voice in my head that's just like, but did you die? And I think that's when I'm if I'm nervous about something, or if I know I'm gonna have to do something that stretches me and puts me in my comfort zone, there's always like that Mr. Chow voice that's like, yeah, but are you going to die? Just like go and do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yes. And also people really don't give a shit about us as we think that's.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Oh my gosh. I know, I know, exactly right. There's a story that's coming to my mind when Hayden and I were in Mexico, and he's always the biggest cheerleader for me to like go and get content. And for me, content was something that got me out of my shell, and doing stuff in public was always pretty tough for me. And it's less tough now, but there's still a little shy kid in me that comes out every now and then where I get a little bit small and I'm like, I don't want to. And Hayden's always like, go on, go do it, go like get it, go do the thing, and I'll I'll capture it for you. Which speaks to like a having a cheerleader in your corner. So amazing. Person you choose really matters in that. And just getting over yourself sometimes and knowing that no one's thinking about you as much as you are, and if you want it, just go and get it.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And be in the room where the people are just so fucking happy that you're trying something. Do you know what I mean? That's in such a different room. I think that's the other thing. Like when we did that Irish dancing one, they were so happy. There was another girl there, and she was happy. And you know, when you think about going into spaces where they actually appreciate people trying things, they actually couldn't give a shit that you're good or not. They just think it's so cool that you showed up. And that is they're the spaces that we need to create more. I mean, they exist everywhere, but they're the spaces that we need to put ourselves in.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Definitely. It makes me think of language learning. Like when I was trying to learn German, awful at it, but I still had to show up, talk to strangers. Like, that's the type of thing that I consider as the risk feels higher going into social scenarios in a city where you don't know as many people, where you don't know how it's going to be interpreted, where you could say, like, I want to lick your face accidentally instead of saying, Can I have that donut? You know, like there's just there's so many things that could go wrong, or like even just like a different accent or like tone or whatever it is completely changes the sentence. But as soon as you say, because I've um very dibble-dabbled in Spanish and German, as soon as I say I'm learning and I'm practicing, I hope you don't mind, and like approach it really open-mindedly, the the the the recipient, the person on the other side is generally not so much in Germany, but the generally is really happy to give it a go with you. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yes. Well, and I also read something around the idea that you're so concerned that other people are judging you more prevalently in the people that have high judgment within themselves. So like it's almost like uh I'm judging myself, you know, therefore I assume other people have the more judging thought processes, if you will. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

That's yes. I've worked with clients before on that where they have a particularly around content because small business owners often their whole thing with content, they're like, oh, I don't want to put myself out there, this is like too much. And some of the judgments that they have about it, I ask them to reframe or tell me about how do they respond to other people doing it, because that's gonna teach you a lot as well around why it's hard for you. If you'll look so like the opposite of what you are saying. If if if you find yourself being judgmental to others on certain things, that's gonna be rebounded back to you tenfold. And so address the thing internally and be cheery, be cheerleaders for them instead, or be like, oh wow, that's a that's a real skill to be able to do that. That's a there's a craft in that, and start to shift your mindset towards it and it will become a little bit easier for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah, and there's almost layers to that, right? Because I think about that in the context of leadership as well, and I don't want to go too far off track, but it's this idea of this generation and this idea I want to decondition leaders. So the first layer is like, can you encourage it in other people? And then, and I think this is where a lot of people get stuck. So it's sort of as a leader, can I encourage my team to rest? Do I understand that they don't need to earn their rest? Do I understand that they should have boundaries? Do I understand that 80% is good enough on certain things? Uh, there are so many things that I inherently understand for my team. But it's like you've got these competing reward systems. One that you've learned kind of it's the no better, therefore I can teach people differently. But then there's the actual metabolizing it and being able to apply it to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah, 100%. I also feel like your ability to be able to do all of those things doesn't exist in a vacuum. And so even just by you saying the corporate side of things, at the end of the day, shit's still got to get done. There's still deadlines, there's still people, there's still people waiting on you on for certain things. When you have the crossover between structures and society and what's required of you, I do think that you have to respond differently, which I think we spoke a lot about girls being socialized differently. And so gender being the structure and what that means for play and your ability to access it. Because girls, I I'm I have two older brothers. I was growing I grew up with two older brothers, much much older than me. So then the play was a little bit difficult and um not difficult, I should say, but they were just old enough that they didn't want to play with me when I was a certain age. Um, but regardless, uh you as a girl, you're socialized generally out of that rough and tumble, risk-taking play much earlier than boys. Um and by the time you're probably in your mid-teens and then into your, what is it, late teens? We've learned that our play should be social, uh contained, look a certain way and be useful to people. Um and I'm curious because you grew up not in a city and with boys. So what did what what did what did your play look like? Because I feel like it would have looked different to me in the city.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

You mean you weren't sliding down giant rock piles on sheets of corrugated metal and no I probably didn't even know what that shit, what what corrugated iron was.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

You know, like a fence?

SPEAKER_02 29:09

You know, like yeah, I know what it is now because of that arm painzad. Yeah, the rains in here.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Exactly. I have the most vivid memory. We found like the back of our house, there were paddocks, and there were multiple paddocks, but some of this is developed now because it's you know a long time ago, and the town was less developed then. Uh, but there was a paddock, and it was but you know, like old um water tanks, big water. Someone had a half of a water tank. We all went and found this and we rolled it out down the streets and rolled it through the paddocks, and we got home and we flipped it upside down and we turned it into a lizard enclosure. And so we went and we like got dirt and trees and everything like that. And then we went out and we found blue bottle, uh blue bottle, blue tongue lizards and um uh god, the dragon one, frill necklace lizards. Yeah, and we had this whole little lizard enclosure in our backyard. So yeah, maybe maybe a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Yo gal. I used to look forward to the sighting of the blue-tongue lizard that lived between our neighbours' fence that happened every now and then. There was in no way, shape, or form where I was finding a discarded half water tank and creating a home. A mini zoo for some zers. That did not quite happen, you know, in my supervision.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

But to your point of of getting of being out of it, uh moved out of it. I definitely was um so I have a sister now, but I grew up with just two brothers, and I have so many memories of just wanting to play with the boys, and they didn't want to play with a girl, and there's sort of those sorts of things, but this idea definitely as I got older, I was really into motorbikes, and that became, you know, thankfully it had a couple of other girlfriends that really they had motorbikes and they did that, but I tried to convince my dad to get me a motorbike. I mean, yeah, I didn't think he was going to be able to do that one. But anyway, the point was he said no on the basis of me being a girl.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Also, I would not give my child a motorbike full stop because I those things in my head are just like little death contraptions. I cannot get around them. Also, the sound of them, I'd have to be around them and I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah, but I so I lived in town, but some of my friends lived on farms. So we would go for, we would do like they had the four-wheelers and the motorbikes. That was just part of play when you went to other people's houses. And so we had a lot of that, but I definitely, as I got later teens, probably because we were in a smaller town, so some of it I think came a little bit later because you just it was a bit more of a way of life. But I definitely think as I've gotten older, uh this idea of just like going out and climbing, I make a point now of trying to climb a tree because this reckless, like being in my body, I think about that now, about the relationship to the way that we're conditioned into disconnecting from our bodies as a play thing. So I don't know if it's so directly, oh, I taught not to play, but when I think about a lot of the play that I love the most requires you to be a bit in your body, that's where I think that we are so disconnected so early, in any sense of exploring our body, whether that's pleasure or or what our body has to look like. We're trained so young to shape it and sculpt it and whatever else it might be. I think starting to think about my body differently and it being almost other to me got in the way of a lot of the types of play that I think I would have done otherwise. Because I don't even know how. Honestly, sometimes I've like, I don't know how to just be totally free in my body sometimes. It's like it actually takes a lot of conscious wiring for me to get free, which is why turning on the music and singing is a part of it. But I uh the idea of just, yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I'm rambling now, but I just think the relationship to the bodies and the relationship to play is where conditioning probably showed up the most for me. Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

I don't know what that what was your Yeah, I can I can see that pipeline for sure. Like there's nothing unclear to that for me, but that's also because we've had such similar experiences with our relationship to our body. Um I I think for me what comes up is like this whole unbecoming thing of like what's meant to show a lady in good light, or you know, that's it's it's how you should be, and there's that I don't know, that you should be quiet and meek and small. And I think there's this really big, I don't know, almost a rebellion against that now. Like be messy, be contradictory. Uh we spoke, I don't know which podcast we spoke about this on, but it was almost like people are rediscovering women who run with wolves and trying to be our wild feral selves. Like you see this so much in copy and stuff now. And yeah, I just hope people actually live that way and think about yeah, think about all of the ways in which we are conditioned so much. You don't have to change it all. Conditioning is good in some instances, and there are ways in which you become trapped by it, and then you don't get to do the things that you want to do and live the fulfilled life that you want to be living in. And that's where I think conditioning needs to be examined, when there's actually something underlying that is stopping you from living the life that you want to be living, rather than just saying, oh, conditioning is bad conditioning. It's it's so much more nuanced than that. But the part that I'm really curious about is is there a version of that like the way you lit up just then, talking about your lizard farm and your not a farm because you I don't know, are you breeding them? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Did they have babies? They have babies so cute.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Um, yeah, okay, your lizard farm, I stand corrected. It wasn't fun. Um, yeah, was there a version of you that used to play freely like that that you miss?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

I yeah, I mean, uh it's yes, and my relationship between my playful self that was inherently seeking and just being more playful in the activities that I did, also my brain starts going to like the burnt out self. And I don't know if that's actually my playful self versus play, but I have this such vivid memory. I was in my first year at my grad job, and I really pissed people off because I was just honestly painfully happy and pay like painfully excitable. And I was like, I was just having the time of my actual life, and I was having so much fun, and there was two women, one of who I'm quite good friends with. They said to me and a friend of mine who are you know similar, like just like honestly, like little cheerleaders just running around with their pom-poms, and they said, Oh, I give it a couple of years, and you'll be jaded and miserable like us. And I remember just thinking, I don't know how to be jaded and miserable. Like, that is not even who I am as a person. You know, this isn't just this tired state. Then there have been stages throughout burnout where I'm like, oh, I miss her, and then she happened to be someone who played a lot. And so, to your point, for not everyone, playing and being playful aren't necessarily the same thing, and one doesn't need to be a conduit to other. But I do think for me that's how it has evolved, and so now I'm bringing in more structured play, and that's in a hope that actually it brings out the playful self more, and so maybe I am gonna like reverse engineer my way back to myself.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Which, hey, I think there's a whole bloody industry based on that, girl. So you if you want something, you gotta figure out how to get it. There's but the space from A to B has to get there somehow, and if it's not innate and it's not, you know, easy for you to reach for and access at any given time, there does have to be a little bit of structure added to it.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

And intentionality, intentionality, yeah. If the strategist can't reverse engineer something, then what have I been doing all the time?

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Who can? Quite honestly, if you can't, who can? But I think that's also what's your version? Um I don't I really relate to being just a playful person. And I don't know if there is a version. Yeah, I don't know if there's a version of me that I miss because I feel like that's been the one thing that I feel like I could count on maybe my whole life. Of just and I even think about it as I was thinking about this episode, I was thinking about even with strangers, I will be playful and silly with people I don't know. It's it's not just reserved for people who are near and dear to me and that I feel safe with and that I trust. It's it's it's almost like my olive, not my olive leaf, but like it's almost like my invitation to connect. Oh, I'll yeah, I'll be silly and playful, and if you want to join, you can join. And I think about this story of how I met one of my dear, dear friends, Eddie, where we're at a New Year's Eve party. I probably had a couple of wines, I wasn't super wasted or anything like that, but I didn't really know that many people there. And her and I locked eyes across the dance floor, and we're just like mirroring each other and dancing and gesticulating wildly, I'm sure. And then we get down on all fours and panther crawl to each other in the middle of a dance floor, and I just that is the version of me who like I'm not surprised by that that that's something like that happens in my life. And Eddie's now one of my like very good friends. We don't have to talk all the time, but it's just one of those soul connections. And I it makes me think about when someone meets you in playfulness, there's so much about the research that tells us what's happening there around the neurotransmitters and all of the science-y things happening in your brain at a neurochemical level. And this story, I feel like, is the perfect example of that because when her and I were mirroring each other, oxytocin increases your trust and closeness with someone. So then when we get on the floor and panther crawl to each other and meet in the middle of the dance floor, that's essentially created a bond for us that's like, holy shit, this person's willing to take a risk like this in a room filled with people. I see you, I see you. And like, what a strong foundation to create um a friendship in. And I think the really cool things about play is that there's so many benefits to it. I don't think I realized the scientific rigour of play until we decided to do this episode and actually look into the research. I know that it's important, I know that there was research. I didn't realize the depth of all of the goodness.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yes, it's like we instinctively know this to be true for all of the reasons that you said, and that we move through the world of playful people, we invite people into our world through humour and play in general, and so you can see and understand the benefit, but to know that so much research exists around it, but also the what the absence of it does, and that the there is a correlation between an absence of play and depressive states um to um mental rigidity and inability to adapt to different environments, like you actually can just be sadder and more stuck through an absence of play. And and there is actually a term called play deprivation.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah, I had no idea that there was actual terminology and studies about all of this. And even as we were reading through some of it, basically it said play can be as important to your well-being as sleep, which that statement alone, we think about it. How much time or energy or whatever it is do you think about like getting a good sleep? I know, even just from the idea of sleep hygiene, no screens before bed, all of these little no caffeine after one o'clock or midday, all of these little things that we do to protect our eight hours of unconsciousness as we hit that pillow. Imagine what that would look like for play. That feels that feels unrealistic to me. Not unrealistic, but like it feels just so far away for us to think about play like that as a society. And I feel like I I don't want anyone to think like, oh great, now play has to be put on my to-do list. But because gosh, we don't need any more of that. But I do think about But I do want it to be put on people's list. Exactly. I do want you to think about play, I do want you to have fun, I do want you to cackle.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yes, yeah. Oh, and just laughed. I mean, God, laughter is the best medicine almost came out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

And but it is it did come out of your mouth, girl. I heard it. The listeners are gonna hear it too.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

I know, but people love our podcast because we laugh, and like we laugh freely, like freely at the world at means that like it's laughing, yeah. At ourselves, all the time, truly. I could just be by myself, cackling away.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

I've witnessed this, I've watched you in the kitchen, just like looking at your phone, cackling. I'm like, what is this bitch laughing about? What is going on? At least I'm looking at my phone.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

You don't see me when I'm just standing there just laughing. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

True, true.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

But but yeah, but I think that's also this one thing probably I think we also have in common is we don't believe that, you know, let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but we don't believe that play has to be productive, and we don't believe that we need to earn play. Absolutely not. And so that's a hurdle to your point about being playful people, that there are so many other barriers for someone to have to I have to earn it. Okay, so once I've done X, Y, Z, then I get to play. Once I've catered to everybody else, and coming back to the gendered thing, once I've catered to everybody else's needs and I make sure everyone else is good, then I get to play. And the play has to be something that I can look back and go, that was a good use of my time.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Oh, the good use of time, that's an interesting one. I I do think that people's relationship to productivity probably tells them a lot about their relationship to play. And so if play feels inaccessible for people to think about as a construct or a concept or whatever it is, think about your relationship to productivity. Because I I don't actually think productivity rules my life in the same ways that it might others. Like I like doing shit, um, and I don't like sitting still for too long, but that's not out of like photo. That's not out of fear of missing out. That's truly for the enjoyment of new experiences, like as the explorer and the play type that I got. And I think that's different to someone who is someone who gets a lot of, who experiences a lot of FOMO. Because one is positive reinforcement, like I'm being pulled forward by the opportunity of doing something new. And then the other one is negative reinforcement. I'm being pushed to do something because I want to avoid the discomfort. And I think that's an interesting lens for people to think about because if you're doing something because you're being pulled towards it for the opportunity of what it might give you versus being pushed, I think that has like a very different behavioral psychology element underpinning that.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah, the push one is to avoid it discomfort. Tell me more about the avoiding discomfort because my mind went somewhere else to what was going to be on the opposite side of the positive.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Oh, yeah, gotcha. So it pushes you to do the exercise, I guess it pushes you to go to that event, to go to that thing, so that you don't feel uncomfortable for sitting there watching it happen without you.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Oh, the FOMO piece. Shaw, sure, sure. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, I get you. Because I was gonna say, I think for um people around the productivity component, or say, like, I have to go do the thing, for some people it would be they it's almost play, sits on the other side of rest for a lot of people. Also, you going to do all of those things. For some people, it would be also because the the negative is they had they they'd be resting, and then that might be lazy or unproductive. So if you know what I mean, it's almost like a productive thing sits on the other side of also a relationship to rest. So, like so the person has to go out and keep doing something every day, some people would feel guilty doing nothing.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yes. Because they're that's the negative reinforcement of them being pushed towards having to do something, so they avoid the discomfort of their internal mind telling them they're lazy. The discomfort is the laziness and the perception self-perception of laziness.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yes, yes, yes, yes. As inverse to FOMO, which is the negative, the push to do it, is the discomfort in staying, is because they're not getting to do the thing. But either way, whether it's because of the discomfort of not doing it or because they don't, they're judging the absence of not doing it. Yep. Does not doing it mean you feel some sort of shame, guilt, discomfort, etc. Is there a negative emotion, whatever it might be, attached to the absence of it?

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Um, yeah, so play asks you to just be like a silly sausage and be in an experience and for that to be the purpose rather than chasing that shiny thing at the end. And I think about the moments where that has felt easiest for me, and it's when I felt really confident in myself. I've felt like I had the skills to navigate a situation. So I feel like play has so much to tell us about resilience, about confidence, learning, motivation, all of these things. And I feel like it's almost like the forgotten, the forgotten child in the corner that people don't talk about when they're talking about all these things that people want in regards to confidence and motivation and achieving things. And they don't realize how important play is in all of that.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Well, and risk taking as a type of play, if we go back to the thing about being kids and what we also we've learned that um parents will actually start intervening in young girl children earlier than they will boys, so they'll start monitoring them climbing a tree earlier and oh, that looks risky earlier, and so, but risk-based play gives children and ultimately adults all of this confidence to move through a situation differently. Oh, I know what it looks like to take a risk in a playful setting, and then they actually have uh a whole different skill set when it comes to actually navigating risk or doing a thing and it not working and reversing back, they can just shrug something off differently than maybe what we could otherwise with an absence of that. And so also just like risk-taking-based play, and it doesn't have to be risk-taking play to give you that. There's other types of play that just like, oh, I'm used to just being in uncharted territory. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Like improv. I feel like improv is such a great I've got such a boner for improv, I swear. I haven't done a class for a very long time. I did one in Berlin years ago. It was like a um an improv. Like two people came to our company and we did an improv class and it was like a half-day workshop. And it was just so much fun. The silliness in it, the relationships formed during it. There was someone in that class who I had never really spoken to before. And in the exercise and in the activity, basically, yes and is an improv sentence that you build on. It's all about never poo-pooing someone's idea and always just going. We say yes and all the time. And like in the corporate setting, you learn that that's how you build versus break and all types of things. But basically, you have to just go along with everyone's scenario. Even if they said something completely different to you, even if you would have taken it somewhere different, you go, yes, and I'm gonna grow a mermaid tail and jump into that ocean. Yes, and I'm gonna capture you, and you're gonna get in my car and I'm gonna take you to meet my mum. Yes, and my tail is stuck in a car door.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

We really need to, we really need to pull over.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Yes, and get me to the hospital. So improv is on our. I'll do it if you do it, Liz, and I'm so excited. I'm thinking I'll just start on that one early.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Which makes me grateful for our friendship because to be able to do this stuff with you, and some of the things I feel like might be a little bit in you more in your camp, and some things might be a little bit more in my camp. But even with Alanis Morissette, we went to go see Alanis Morissette, and I think I mentioned that I was like, oh yeah, cool. I can see that you are so excited about this. Let's go. I'm booking tickets right now. And I think it's so important to have friends that do shit with you, aren't just like, mm-hmm, that's not my thing. You go alone. Like, I don't know. I feel like relationships and play also have a really big crossover with a Venn diagram. Um, do you have any friendships or relationships outside of me? Uh, because you know, it doesn't start and end with me, I understand. Um, that is defined like by play or that it's just a super playful relationship.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Well, I mean, and just quickly back to your point of like that Alanis Morosco thing, you then obviously ended up having a really great time. And so I think that's the other thing. In going to things with other people, you actually get to learn about yourself. Like you get to put yourself in things you wouldn't choose, and so oftentimes because you had no expectations, because you were just going with something that you actually get to. But in terms of relationships, it's funny, I've been thinking a lot about people that come into your lives as you get older and older, and what starts to be missing from certain relationships. And we are really lucky because we such playful people that still then is part of our relationship. But I think about like, I think as friends I've made as I've gotten older, I hug less than the friends that I had from when I was younger. Not in a I will hug them higher, but but just physically more affectionate. There was just so much more affection when you were younger. I don't there's certain things as adults when we start to interact with each other. Um, and so I think when I go back to memories of or relationships where there's a lot more play, they actually tend to be my longer relationships.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah, interesting. When you say play, do you mean touch or play?

SPEAKER_01 51:30

No, I just mean play in general and I've been thinking about the intimacy piece in relationships. And then it was interesting, then thinking about the play piece. I'm like, oh, actually, the relationships I think probably outside of us, where I'm like, oh my god, we are so playful and we are laughing the whole time and everything is hilarious, are actually friends that I have, say from uni. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe when the responsibilities of life, I don't know, evolve and you're meeting people in different settings or what it might be, but I just feel like my uni friendships probably are the ones where I'm like, like I immediately are thinking one of my friends who probably has my favorite sense of humor. Just I can't not laugh when she's talking.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yes, I love that. I absolutely love that. I also feel like friends that have seen you through different stages of life just have a different. I don't know. I have another, I have a friend that's coming to my mind as well, where it's just so silly. And we just send each other the dumbest memes. We might not ever talk about anything serious. I don't think I know what's going on in her life, except for she bought a house kind of recently. And I will still just message her this meme. I messaged her this morning with a meme of Jimothy, the little raccoon that has no real second half of his body who I absolutely adore. And it basically said, like, I know I was weird and it will happen again. And it's that sort of stuff that her and I send each other all the time because she is. She's my weird drama kid friend. We met in high school. And yeah, I just think there are certain friendships that have withstood the test of time that you can be a different, weird and wonderful version of yourself with.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

And I wonder you'll be what you mean. We talk about the cookies and the cookie jar, but I I think you've there's almost this, you just know these people. You've seen each other to your point in so many different things, but also at your worst or whatever it might be. The judgment in the friendship is gone. Truly. It really doesn't matter what I do in this friendship. I mean, obviously, sorry. Treating that person well, being a good person, you know. I mean, I'm I'm very this is a continuous.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

In our scaffolding of normalcy.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

In our scaffold of like being a good person. And I don't mean good girl, I mean integrity and like values led. Yeah. Values led. But even that, like the friends that I'm like, hey, I've after.

unknown 53:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

And actually, hey, that was a that was even even what was a values miss. Like the friend you're gonna call and be like, oh, I did a I've had a bad judgment call. Yes. They're just gonna love you anyway. They're gonna be you just and so I think with play too for me, because I'm always wondering what that person's thinking, I'm always thinking about what they're playing back to me, and there's that second voice in my head. Whereas I think there are certain friendships where I just that voice is completely quiet, and therefore you just play so much more in those relationships.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

You can be so much more present, yeah, 100%. And you're not worried about how everything is going to be perceived.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah. Well, that was part of the definition, right? That you're actually in a playful state of mind, and part of that requires you being present. And so if you're the overthinkers, then that can get in the way of certain relationships if you haven't either it's not been established long enough or there isn't that kind of sense of safety that there might be. And then that does get in the way of certain play. Play that, play that, you know, we're not not performing laughing, like just like no, just be laughed a valid.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Oh silly, yes, rolling about and just talking about the silliest stuff, and even just you know, one of my favorite things is when you almost just like look over at someone, and then you're both just in absolute shambles, cackling, almost weeing yourself, and you're like, wait, what are we even laughing at? And it's like, I don't know. And I think like as adults, that happens less and less. And it's I think it's sad. I think I think we should be able to cackle more. And obviously, there are very real things that happen as you get older, whether it's grief, whether it's life, whether it's being tired from a job that you hate or just capitalism in general sucking your soul. Don't let play get sucked out of you. I think that's that's maybe the the little takeaway. Um, and that we don't want it to be a to-do on your list. So then what do we want our listeners to think about as they leave? As they as they are now going back into their lives, thinking about play and wondering, how does one play? Do I even play? Do I have any friends I want to go and play with? Should I go and knock on the front door and say, hey, is Caitlin home?

SPEAKER_01 56:05

I want to play.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

What are some what are the questions that you would like people to be thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Definitely thinking about childhood play. Were there things that were centered for you when it came to play as a child? Something maybe that you've abandoned now. Um that would definitely be one question to have fun exploring. Um, what's another one?

SPEAKER_02 56:26

What has to be true for play to be unproductive for you? And to allow it just to be for the sake of being. And then who can you do it with? Yeah. Who who in your life do you actually want to play with? Uh, who do you already play with? And maybe savouring a little bit of that gratitude for them.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Yeah, I will send out the the quiz for the play quiz ones too, because there are certain maybe there might even be types of play that you were trained out of thinking that were fun. So do the quiz. Depending on the different play themes that come up, it will give different prompts of things that you can do. Uh, and whether the results are the top ones or the bottom ones, it just might be play categories that you're curious about, and it will give little prompts for each of them. So uh yeah, get curious about different types of play.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

Oh, yay! All right, well then I'm not doing any more work for the rest of the day. I'm gonna go be unstructured and imaginative. Okay, love you bye. Love you bye.