SHOP TALK - Episode 12: Why People Stay Injured Longer Than They Should

In today's podcast, Trevin and Tyler discuss the issue with injury duration, rehab, and how to manage variables related to recovery to aide in injury prevention.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Shop Talk. I'm Trevin. And I'm Tyler. We are here to break down the latest trends in rehabilitation, strength, and conditioning all through the lens of evidence-based practice. Our goal is simple cut through the noise in the fitness industry and talk about what actually works, why it works, and how you can apply it. On today's podcast, we will be discussing why most people stay injured longer than they should. So, Silver, go ahead and take it away. All right.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Well, everyone, we're back on Zoom again because our schedules are a little wild. So thanks for being patient with us because you know, Trevin's in Pocatello. I'm here in Idle Falls, and we're both busy, both with work and then everything else. Summertime just gets really busy with friends, family, everything like that. So we still try to put up, you know, as many episodes as we can. But thanks for being patient. So um on today's topic of why do people stay injured longer than they should. I want to start with basically a question for you, Trevin, or any of the listeners. I'm sure they've heard this too with their buddies or any gym friends. How many times have you heard somebody say, Oh, my shoulder's feeling good? So I'm gonna max out on bench today.

unknown 1:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Um then they start benching and they're like, Oh man, my shoulder, every time I bench, it hurts. And it's like, okay, well, what have you done to try to fix it rather than just give it rest, right? Because that's usually their their answer for everything. When I talk to people, even here at the gym, they're like, Yeah, every time I bench, my shoulder hurts, you know, so I just I don't I don't do a whole lot of it anymore, right? I go, Well, what have you done to try to like work on it? And they say, Well, you know, I rested for a couple weeks and then, you know, I came back and it still hurt. And it's like, okay, well, that's probably the worst thing that you could do. If you're trying to get over an injury and you just let it chill and you're not exercising that joint and getting it stronger, that's one of the worst things that you could do. Cause then what happens? You jump back into your normal workout routine or your normal like warm-ups, or maybe you're trying to go heavy on bench again and you're gonna flare up that tissue again. Whether it's a tissue kind of thing or it's a biomechanical issue with the glenohumeral joint or the scapulothoracic joint, whatever it might be, there's so many different things at play. And it's like just taking rest isn't gonna fix the problem, right? And I try to educate as many people like in my gym that I can because people always approach me, like even when I'm working out and they're just like, hey, like what would you do for like shoulder pain on bench or like hip pain on squat? And it's like, it goes so much deeper than that. You know, it's not just, oh, let it rest and then come back, right? Sometimes that can work if it's a very minor issue and they rest for a week or two and then it feels better. That's fine. Sometimes tissues just need a little bit of a break. But I ask things like, okay, have you actually tried to address like weaknesses, right? A lot of people don't realize certain weaknesses, let's say with like rotator cuff or periscapular musculature, anything like that, right? So a lot of people don't realize they have these weaknesses, so they don't know what to really target. That's kind of where PT and strength and conditioning can kind of take over, which is nice. But you can also uh do so many better things than just rest, such as decreasing load, decreasing volume, decrease the range of motion with uh like a block press or a spoto press where you're stopping like two inches off the chest, or you could switch to something more stable like a machine press and then slowly work back into like a barbell bench press, right? And for all the listeners, I'm just using barbell bench as an example here because it could be really any movement that causes pain for people. And oftentimes people push really hard on bench, right? They want to bench a lot of weight, they're trying to keep up with their buddies or whatever it might be, they want to put up big numbers. And it's like what happens when an injury first arises and they're like, man, I really hurt my shoulder, blah, blah, blah. Let's say they take a couple weeks off, they come back, and then they try to do the exact same thing. They try to jump into that same load or that same volume. And it's like, why do you think you you took this rest to give that tissue a little bit of a break and help with that injury, let it recover a little bit? Why do you think that you can just jump right back in and everything feels perfectly normal again? Right. Why wouldn't you warm up a little bit for let's say two-week break, but then for the next two weeks after that, work on really, really light motion, right? And like smooth and building a little bit more fine motor control and neuromuscular re-education with your pressing movements, right? Jumping right back into it will actually keep you injured much longer than if you were to take a break, do a little bit of rehab, take care of your shoulder or whatever might be happening, whether it's the pec or something in the back, whatever. Taking care of that and doing some, you know, very intentional movement and then progressing from there, right? Not just, oh, I'm gonna get back under the barbell and try to bench 315 again, right? Just because your shoulder feels good. That's one of the worst things you can do. So I hope, you know, that wasn't too repetitive, but that's the first thing that I wanted to tackle is like there are different ways to return to something if you enjoy doing it, right? Benching, squatting, whatever, whatever movement might be painful, but you're like, oh, I want to get back to it. It's like, okay, then let's do the right steps to get back to it. Let's not just avoid the movement. Let's not just, you know, uh only do it when it feels good, kind of thing. It's like, let's fix the issue, is kind of what I'm after here. So that's a big thing I see gym-wise and PT-wise, is most of the time people just jump in way too quick, and our bodies need a little bit more time and love and care than you would think, than most people think.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of, and you probably see this a lot. We have a lot of guys that used to be free sport athletes or just very active individuals, let's say late teens, early 20s, and then we get out of playing sport and we get a nine to five job, and we are a lot less active than we used to be. And then we join a rec league basketball group and you know, pop an Achilles, or pull a hamstring, or even going into the gym, like you said, and loading the bench up with two plates and jacking up your shoulder because that's what you used to do without any forethought of like, hmm, I probably have a significant amount of atrophy that has happened because I haven't done this for a really long time.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

And that's not to fault anybody. I I think people have a pretty big m misunderstanding of how quick you lose like mass and strength. Like it's not super quick, but when we're talking about like years and years of not training a specific movement pattern or specific movement patterns at high velocity, how prone you are to injury when you just go from doing nothing to going max effort right away.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

And and same thing can happen with with the injury aspect of it too, right? Because yeah, people will take a break or whatever and then assume, like you said, without any forethought of thinking, okay, things are probably a little tender. I probably lost a little bit of strength or a little bit of like neuromuscular control. So maybe I should back off this weight a little bit and just work on like form or like a little bit higher rep stuff today or anything like that, right? It that's the best thing that you could do, honestly, instead of, oh yeah, I'm just gonna go balls to the walls now that my shoulder feels good again, right? Because this is a really important quote is that people usually feel better before they're actually better, right? In PT, and I'll I'll let you continue, but this is a really common one where people will be in a sling for like six weeks, right? But they stop wearing the sling after like three or four weeks because they're like, Oh yeah, my shoulder's good. Like it feels great, right? The tissue has not healed. There is a reason there is a time frame for you to stay in that sling, right? And I I've seen it multiple times, right? One of them was like a clavicle fracture that they plated and then had to do some other reconstruction. And then other ones were like shoulder dislocations too, right? So they have to sit stay in this sling for like six weeks, and it's always these young guys that are like, Well, no, it started feeling good. So, you know, I just haven't been wearing the sling. And I'm like, that's not the purpose. It's not just like, oh, once it feels good, you're fine to stop wearing it. It's like that tissue inside the joint and like supporting that joint has not healed yet. So anyway, that's a that's a really big topic. But um, yeah, I agree that people just need to have a little bit more awareness of like where their body is at. And I feel like most people don't know when they start jumping back into exercise again or anything like that, and it leads to injuries.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, it's almost like people think that they are the exception to the rule.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, yeah. They're the one percent, they're the one percent.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Like, nope, not me. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, and like I said, we see it every day, and you probably get some of it yourself, but even now, like going and sprinting and doing you know, plyometric work and agility work, it's hard to get back into those things if you haven't done it in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

And this has happened to me where I've overdone it on the training volume with running or plyometric work, and then I start getting patellar tendinitis or Achilles tendinitis, and I get frustrated when I know the answer is that it was just too much volume too quick, and I didn't have the capacity to handle that. Or I look back to when I was playing college football and it's like, dude, I was sprinting every day, max effort all the time, and had a little to no injury there. And so it kind of messes with you a little bit, thinking like, ah, well, I used to be able to do this, why can't I do this now? And it just happens to be that you just aren't aren't training it. It really is a use it or lose it.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

100%. So and and to go along with that too, I think a big issue um is that when people do start working out again, whether it's lifting or running or whatever, their body can handle it. Their body usually does fairly good, and they're like, okay, I'm still feeling pretty strong, or like, yeah, that makes sense that I'm not like where I used to be in my 20s or whatever, but like they're doing good. They're strong. The difference though is that they're not recovering the same, right? Their stress level isn't the same, right? When you're in your young teens and your 20s or whatever, it's like, dude, you're living life, like you have a ton of energy, you can recover well, you sleep like a rock. Like all of those things play into recovery. And when you get older, those things get a lot harder. You're not sleeping as much, you're stressed from work, like that all plays a factor into the recovery aspect. That yeah, that's probably why you can't do as much volume anymore, right? You can't just run miles and miles or do sprints or change of direction, agility drills, jumping, plyos, whatever, because your body's not recovering at the same rate that it used to. So once again, injury risk, right? So it's all about, like you said, pacing a little bit and not doing too much too too soon.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah, and that's a good segue into maybe just a short discussion on why having a good coach or following a sound strength and conditioning program is really important just because of the progression you have to follow in order to recover appropriately from that training stress.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

So you can't just throw every single person, every single person in the same training program and expect the same result with no injury. Everyone's gonna have a different fitness level, different training age, different experience, different tolerance for different loads and intensities that we have to make sure when we're coaching and instructing that we're giving them enough dose to you know stimulate adaptation, but not enough that they're getting injured. And this is something that I had heard um in a different podcast, but it was I would rather go a mile too short than an inch too far. And I love that. It's it's in my opinion, too, I would much rather lean towards minimal effective dose and make sure that person can consistently show up on a day-to-day basis and to include myself in my own training than going really, really hard two or three times a week. And now I'm dealing with nagging aches and pains, and then my my volume and intensity actually decrease chronically because I'm always in this over-trained, over-stimulated, oversympathetic state all the time, and I'm not giving myself the time I need to appropriately recover from that training stress.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

So understanding when to push it and when to pull back is extremely important. And a lot of times you need a coach for that because us as individuals, especially people that are high performers, it's really hard for us to pull ourselves back from that because we just want to go, go, go, go, go. And in reality, the majority of us can't just do that. There's there's a run into a reason in terms of like undulating your training throughout the week and modulating your volume and intensity so you're not just going false to the wall every single day. Like there's a reason for that. It's not because we're lazy, it's not because you know, whatever else. It really is to reduce injury risk, right? To improve our ability to recover and to get chronic long-term adaptation, not necessarily, you know, get better today. It's get better two weeks from now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

So dude, that's a really, really cool, like, I guess, quote is what you're saying from this podcast in terms of a mile short versus an inch long, because even this much overtraining really can lead to an injury. And I'm not trying to scare anyone who's listening where it's like, you better be careful, dah, dah, dah, because most people aren't really pushing to that level. But if you're chronically pushing to that level, right, then that's where it's like, okay, you're just gonna hurt yourself, right? There's absolutely no purpose. You're probably not even recovering from your previous workout, right? And a big thing in PT too, when people come to work with me, they are ready to go. They're like, man, I'm so excited, like my body's feeling good today. Let's really push it, right? And I'm like, okay, yep, but I don't go just because they're feeling good, I'm not skyrocketing more volume, a ton of different load. It's all based on what they've done previously, right? And once again, why and why coaching and periodization is important. But then on the bad days too, they're like, Well, I still, I still want to push it, but I'm hurting a little bit today, right? Whether it's a joint issue or something like that, like with my low back pain patient that I just saw today. She's like, Yeah, I definitely slept weird. My back is achy, like it's not great. But she's like, But I'm ready to go because it's Friday and then I have the weekend to recover. I'm like, that's not the point, right? On days where it's not feeling good, we don't have to push to that level. We really don't. We don't have to push that. It's okay to really pull things back a little bit and work on some different movements or some lighter load stuff. And that way, like you said, over time, over a longer period of time, their recovery is much better. Rather than just hammer forward, hammer forward, like just keep going, push through the pain, blah, blah, blah. That's not what it's about at all. It's actually pretty detrimental.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

So yeah, and it is gonna be different with athletes, right? Um, athletes are typically younger, right? So their capacity to handle high amounts of stress is a lot better than, let's say, general population.

unknown 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

All right. So that's that's one thing that's important to understand. But in terms of like the strength and conditioning side of things, this is why I really like an undulated training approach where you are manipulating your intensity and volume throughout the week to give yourself a chance to recover from those training sessions and just remember that you really are training for tomorrow, not today.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

So you should be training at a level that allows you to show up consistently the next day and the next day and the next day. And again, like it's way better to be a mile too short than an inch too long. Like, I just love that. And yeah, I would love to drive that point home for people. You just want to be able to consistently show up, and nothing is worse than a nagging, nagging ache or pain that keeps you out of the gym, especially for somebody that loves the gym, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, and and that goes directly into our topic of why people stay injured longer than they should, right? Because it's this nagging injury. So then they're just like, well, I'm just not gonna go to the gym because it hurts, right? Or I'm gonna stop doing squats because it hurts. So they stop doing these movements. And once again, that's the worst thing that you can do. So it's like, let's just pull back, even if it's a mile, even if it's two miles, like pull back even more than you would think, right? That's a conversation that I also have with my patients where I'm just like, listen, everyone wants stuff instantly nowadays, right? Like things are great. You want to feel better immediately, right? And I say to them, I'm like, you will progress quickly, right? Your body is doing like it's working day in, day out, right? It's working 24 hours a day to get you better. But it's going to take more time than you think, right? Like tissue healing times, bone healing times, disc healing times, that takes longer than what most people assume. Cause they're just like, oh, well, if I just take a break for a week, like it'll, it'll be better, right? Or if I work on PT stuff for a week, it'll be better. And it's like, no, like you said, it's so that you can continuously keep showing up because it's it's for the long game, right? So that's how you actually make good changes that don't just, you know, bury people in the dirt and make them not want to show back up to training or anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, and there's a huge difference between rest and rehabilitation, right? You might be, and you could probably speak to this way better than me, but like sure, you might get better with a little bit of rest, but what are we gonna do in a month from now when that injury starts to reoccur? Right. That's where you said looking at weaknesses and finding where you can actually improve and then attacking it instead of avoiding it with like, oh, I'm just gonna take a couple days off every single time my fatal artendinitis shows up. I'll just take a couple days, but then it just reoccurring, you know, keeps showing back up again and again and again instead of attacking the problem for what it is and maybe making improvements.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah. So yeah, dude, two ultra runners that I'm treating right now. Um, dude, first of all, they're they're impatient, they're high performing athletes, right? And they they push their bodies to the limit, don't get me wrong. And I tell them, I'm like, listen, PT stuff is not gonna give you that adrenaline and that high that you get with your running or your biking or your swim, whatever, right? Because they're ultras, they also do triathlete, everything like that. It is boring. It is boring stuff. Like, don't get me wrong. I make it as engaging as possible. I try to make the exercises as applicable as possible to their sport, all of those things. But rehab is getting really, really good at basic things and getting really, really strong and getting really, really good control with basic movements so that when you go to push your body, it's ready for it, right? So that's the biggest thing that I would say is like it's boring, but it's it pays off in the long run to do these little things, right? And it takes longer than you think. Takes longer than you think. Like for a patellar tendinitis, man, like that's a hard injury to recover from. But if you just ignore it and expect it to go away, it's like that's not doing anybody any good, right? If anything, that's probably causing more damage because you're just trying to push through it. So anyway, yeah, definitely big difference between rehabilitation and rest for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, it's kind of like seeing the check engine light on your car, and you're just like, nope, it'll just go away.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

It'll just go away.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

It'll just go away.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

No, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

That's a perfect analogy there because I've actually used this with my people. So at this point, let's say their check engine light has been on or whatever, right? And yeah, I'm not saying you need a new car. I'm not saying you need a new engine. I'm not saying that, right? But like, let's refill the wiper fluid. Let's refill the oil a little bit, like change the oil, right? Let's make sure the tire pressure is good. These little maintenance things, which is rehab and targeting those things, will help the engine and the car run much smoother, right? When it is going for long drives or going off-roading, whatever, right? That's a perfect analogy of our body where it's just like, yeah, this maintenance it sucks and like it's ongoing and it takes a while, whatever, but it's so much better than just ignoring it and saying, Oh, I'll worry about it next week or next week or whatever, and just keep pushing that off because eventually the car's gonna give out, right? So I don't know. I love that. I love that. I love that analogy a lot.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, and before we move on, I I'd written something down that I wanted to say, and this is something that I use in my own training and with any clients that I would have was you should feel better leaving the gym than you did when you showed up as a gauge for how hard did I go too hard or did I not go hard enough?

unknown 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

There are definitely gonna be times, especially if you're training for a specific sport or event, that you're gonna have to overreach a little bit and you're gonna feel pretty fatigued after a training session. But for 80% of your training sessions, I would argue that you should be feeling way better, more energized, in a better mood after you leave the gym than you did when you showed up.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And if that's not the case, I would argue that you probably went a little bit too hard.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

So that's something I like to use as something I push on friends and family that are training. It's like, well, how did you feel when you were done? It's like, oh, well, dude, I felt tired and I was extremely hungry and I was exhausted and I couldn't perform the rest of the day. I had to take a nap, like all these other things that are now affecting your life outside of the gym and Like, okay, well, now we're just losing you know track of what the point of exercise is in the first place, and that's to improve your quality of life. And so now we're actually disrupting your quality of life because we are overdoing it in the gym.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So absolutely. And one other topic, and you mentioned this was probably 10 minutes ago, but it just reminded me that I did want to speak to that. Like I'm not a huge advocate for group classes, right? I love the morale and I love the community and all of that. Um, and it's something that I might implement here in the gym at some point. But you were talking about the ceiling effect and the floor effect, right? Everyone has different ranges of like what they can tolerate. That's the the scary part about like CrossFit and other group training sessions. It's like not everyone needs a okay, let's say they're all fine with this specific exercise. Okay, that's fine. That's great. They can all do box jumps, that's awesome, right? But if one person is brand new, let's say, to CrossFit and only been doing it for a week versus somebody that's been doing it for five years, right? That volume is going to be very different on what is like actually appropriate for their tendons or joints and everything like that. That's why group classes just kind of scare me sometimes, right? So if we do any group classes here, it's like we're we're gonna try to keep it really small, like three to five people, like anywhere in there. And because honestly, there needs to be a lot of changes or being able to regress or progress whatever exercise based on the person's training age. So I just wanted to mention that because that's important to me too. Because oftentimes people might show up to the group classes and they're like, well, that was a really easy day. Okay, there's the floor effect, right? And then ceiling effect is like, okay, you're bumping into, okay, that's way too much, right? For somebody, it doesn't really make sense for them to be doing that amount of volume or that load.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

So yeah. Well, even in terms of like proper adaptation, if I'm running a group training class and the stimulus that I'm wanting to provide is like a zone two stimulus, well, that zone two stimulus for like Karen over here might actually be like zone four, zone five, and they might not be able to actually do the entire workout because they're going so hard, their high rate is through the roof, which would be fine for different adaptation. But a 30, 40-minute workout at a zone four, zone five is like pure torture, and this Karen chick's gonna be sore shit and probably get injuries after a couple training sessions because she's gone way too hard.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

But she's gonna be probably looking at her friends and everybody else in the group that are just doing these exercises and not having any problem with it, right? But she's gonna continue to do it anyways because of her friends, and then there's peer pressure, and then there's uh, well, I just need to do more, more, more, more, more. Like I'm just, you know, people just don't understand, right? Because they're not they're not in the world of fitness, they're using fitness to improve again their their quality of life, but they don't understand it to the level uh that we do, and that's why we need good coaches, right? Yeah, that are slowing people down and getting them to understand, like, you know what, we're gonna we're gonna pull you back a little bit while we're gonna progress somebody else over here. And that's why I think that small group training is a way better approach for group training. So you can actually manage you could easily three or four people in terms of adjusting their volume and intensity, whereas you've got 10, 15, 20 people plus, you're gonna get lost trying to get that message across to people, especially when we're in a competitive environment like CrossFit, where even as a coach, if you tell somebody like, hey, I need you to take the load down, like increase the weight on the bar, they're probably just gonna give you the burden, they're gonna do it anyways. Yep. So it's super tough.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

It is. And I know we can talk shit on CrossFit quite a bit, right? There's people that love it, and I respect them because movement is movement, right? And they can get stronger, they can get more fit, that's great. But when you introduce time limits or like max reps in a minute and things like that, when you introduce chaos of any form into lifting, especially when there's 20 freaking people, a coach cannot keep an eye on all of those people, period. I don't care how good the coach is, right? And the goal is eventually, which I like, that the people are pretty independent, right? Uh but then at that point, it's like well, if you have this workout uh written on the board, is that workout even gonna challenge that person that's completely independent with their squats or their deadlifts or their box jumps or their pull-ups? It's like, is that workout even gonna be challenging to them at that point? I don't know. There's a lot that goes into that, man. It's it's weird. I I struggle with it because it's like there's some things that I I like. I like the camaraderie, I like people being motivated to go and they're like, oh yeah, that was a tough workout. But you see it all the time where people just get absolutely smoked with like the CrossFit open. And it's like, okay, what are we doing? Was that really good for your training? Was that good for for your body? Honestly, it probably caused more aches and pains than anything.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

So yeah. Well, being a good cheerleader and a good motivator doesn't necessarily make you a good coach, right? You can sit there and rah-rah, whoever's in the gym all you want to, but being a good coach is being able to recognize when you should pull somebody back and when you should maybe push them forward, right? That's what good coaching is. So, and I think not just CrossFit, but a lot of gyms are like people want to be coaches because they just want to be the hype man and the cheerleader for people in the gym, but that's not what coaching is. Yeah, right. Coaching entails like a really in-depth, you know, education and understanding of how you can actually breed adaptation and not injure somebody, right? And give them the results that they're actually looking for. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with being a motivating coach or somebody that likes to cheer people on, but you also need to know when to push and when to pull back.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

So but hey, one more thing before we move on to the the next topic. Yeah um, this is something I also use in my training, and it's actually called flexible daily undulation. So, what that means is I'm adjusting my volume and intensity on a daily basis based off of how I'm recovered that day. So, to keep it simple, most people could just use an RPE scale. So you wake up one morning and you're feeling like an eight out of 10, like you're feeling great. Well, you can go probably pretty hard and high intense, like with hot training with high intent that day, because it recovers really well. Well, the next day you might be like a three or a four. Well, then maybe just bring your training intensity down that day. So, what I like to use, right, is I use my Whoop, right, which is just a fitness tracker that's giving me metrics for my sleep and my recovery and everything like that. So if I did have like a higher intensity training day planned, but my recovery is like in the yellow or even in the red where it's not very good, I will just make daily adjustments based off of my recovery to change that. So it's matching my readiness for the day. Yeah. So I'm not going on the paper like, well, I have to do this training session because that's what the program says. I'm actually stepping in and taking more control of that training by saying, like, well, my body doesn't want to do that today, and it's not gonna give me the results that I actually want. So I'm just gonna pull it back a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

So yeah, daily undulation is something that I would really push on people that have really busy schedules and have a really hard time controlling how well they recover, whether that's their sleep or nutrition or other things, all these other variables that affect how you recover. Daily undulation, like using a flexibility approach like that, I think is is the best for most people. So that way you're not sticking to like a concrete plan of like, nope, you have to do this, you have to squat heavy today. Well, my recovery's in the shit. So should I actually be squatting at a three RM today? Probably not. We're just gonna end up getting hurt and we're gonna be even more underrecovered for the next day. So we're just in this vicious cycle of under-recovery and minimal adaptation, probably. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yep. So I love that, right? So I'm I love linear periodization as much as the next guy, right? Like I think it can be really useful. And especially if we talked about like younger age groups, right, can really benefit from that because they they recover well, they sleep well, they're eating lots of food, they're growing, like that kind of stuff. But for somebody like you said, who's really, really busy, being able to undulate is a fantastic tool. So, my question for you then is do you think every person in the gym could benefit to it or or from that form of training? Or does it need to be like, okay, you're you've been training for about three years, right, or so, or it could be less. I don't know, I'm just throwing a number out there. Do you think that it's appropriate for everyone to use? I guess is my question, right? Or does it need to be more skilled people who understand um what their recovery looks like and how to still pull things back while still getting good adaptation, like you talked about minimal effective dose? Or my worry is that too many people might use that and they're not no, they don't know how to pull back the volume enough, right? Or they're like, okay, I'll just do one less set, but I'm gonna keep the weight just as heavy, or things like that, right? Do you think everyone can do that and benefit from it?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I think everybody can benefit from using some kind of metric to track their recovery on a day-to-day basis because nothing gets as individualized as that.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

So even if you're at a high level of training or a low level of training, I think getting insight into how well, for one, your program's working, because a good undulated training program is going to have fluctuations throughout the week where you're highly recovered and also low recovered because you need training sessions that do push you. So being able to look back and chronically see, like, oh, throughout the training week, like I had a couple green days where I was well recovered. I had a couple moderate days where I was kind of in the middle, then I had a couple days where I was in the red. So that's kind of what you want when you're programming or doing like a periodized training approach, is you want some undulation and intensity and volume as well as recovery, because we can't expect to be green all of the time. So I just think having some kind of insight, whether that's using HRV or an RPE scale or even just your resting heart rate every day to just kind of gauge how well your body's recovering.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Because you can look back, right, and be like, holy cow, like I've been two weeks and I haven't had one training day where I was like in the green. To me, that would say, like, hey, I'm not giving myself enough time to recover between training sessions, or I'm doing too many high-intensity training sessions throughout the week.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

And I think you can even use this approach for any kind of periodization model too. I don't think it necessarily has to be this flexible daily undulation that I use. You can still use it on a linear periodization model. You're just gonna decrease volume and intensity on a daily basis based off of how well you're recovered. And I would say the only exception to this would be I would say if you're in a peaking phase for an event, you're probably gonna have several days where you're pretty well or pretty low recover because you're trying to push that limit, right? Right before you um deload, right? So, yeah, I would say for most people, I would say try to find a way to get some individual, individualized insight into how well your training program's working in terms of its ability to allow you to recover and adapt based off the volume intensity that you're using.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

So you're not worried too much, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, yeah. No, it did for sure. I guess you're you're not too worried then, because about like people being able to pull back the volume or pull back the intensity on certain days, you're not too worried about how that looks for them because then they can track the recovery the following day and see, oh, I'm still in the yellow or I'm still in the red. So I still went too hard. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, yeah. And I I think I think just gaining insight, because it's gonna be a lot easier for people that are, I guess, are more fitness fanatics and that understand what the metrics actually mean when you're looking at it. Um, but no, I don't think it's a disadvantage at all, other than the fact that I think some people might just ignore it anyways, because we talked about people thinking that they're exception, not the rule. They might be looking at their metrics and say, well, whatever, I'm still gonna go hard anyways, right? But I would argue that those are the kind of people that are gonna run into your overtraining or like, you know, injuries, right? Like the micro injuries that you're gonna get through overtraining, like the tendonitis type stuff. So I think it takes a lot of discipline to use something like a whoop that is telling you, like, hey, you went really hard today, maybe pull it back a couple notches the next day. And I even struggle with that myself, right? Like I will wake up with uh a red recovery, and it's basically like I should probably just go for a walk today. And I had like a so the discipline needed to use something like a whoop or some kind of guided metric for your training. It you're gonna run into problems when you're dealing with high performers because I think a lot of times they're just gonna ignore it.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

So, like, again, for me and my own training, it's really hard to get excited and amped up for a training day the next day and then wake up and you're getting a notification like, well, sorry, dude, like your recovery was really shit. You didn't sleep very well, your HRV is is low, your resting heart rate's elevated. And so to avoid injury and to allow you to train harder later in the week, you need to probably hold back today. That's extremely hard, especially for people that are really excited for those hard training sessions. So that is the only concern that I would have is people just ignoring the inside, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah. And do you think it's ever worth it to push on those days that you're not well recovered? Right. I'm not saying every single time, no matter what, you're just ignoring the red or the yellow or whatever your recovery is. But do you think there are benefits to, okay, this is gonna be a hard day, but I know what I want to do and like I've been training for this and whatnot, right? You think that's beneficial?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, if I'm trying to super compensate and I'm in like a peaking zone, like let's say I'm, you know, two weeks out from training low to jaw, and I know that I have to get a couple century rides in before I do that, and my recovery is not great. I still have to go do those rides anyways, right? Right. I'm trying to super compensate, I'm trying to force adaptation. Is it gonna be most optimal? Maybe, maybe not, but I still need to get those rides in and I'm still trying to force adaptation. And your body can handle a high level of stress, you just don't want to do it chronically. So I think there are brief amounts of time where you can train on a red or a yellow day where you're not feeling super good. Sometimes you just have to do the shit anyways, right? But I would I would save that for times where you're super close to competition and you really are trying to force adaptation.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Same thing with powerlifting, right? Like if you're getting close to peak and getting close to competition, you know, in your program, like you have to start hitting those higher intensity loads, right? You can't just avoid those because you didn't get enough sleep last night, especially if your lack of sleep is because you were out the night before drinking with the bros and you didn't get enough sleep, right? So there are definitely times where I think you have to push it, but that's going to be more towards a conversation of like athletes that are actually competing. When we talk about like general public type people, I don't think it's really ever necessary to push yourself on days that you're super low recovered. Like, what's the point? Like, yeah, you might force some adaptation, but I would say it's just creating poor training habits and making you think that you're unstoppable and that you can just ignore the signs of overtraining or under-recovery.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah. So yeah, I think that's important because honestly, it's not like we're saying, oh, if you're just general population, if you're not like an athlete, then you don't have to worry about it. But it's like, no, if you are training for the long term and you are still trying to make gains and feel comfortable and like, you know, lift for life is basically what I like to say, right? If you're trying to lift for um, you know, improved functionality and feeling good, maybe a good body, whatever, it's like this is more than just a day, you know. Like you said, it's it's a chronic thing, it's a long-term kind of game that you're playing for. So yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, and one thing that I always ask myself personally is do I want to compete healthy or do I want to compete optimally with injury? Yeah. So what I mean is if if I'm pushing myself too hard and I show up to like a race day and I'm injured, that's not gonna be very fun. And I'm not competing at a high level. I just do this shit for fun, anyways. I'm not gonna have a really good time traveling to go do some kind of a race if I'm dealing with an injury the entire time. Yeah, okay, cool. Like I got a couple really good rides in during my training peaking week. Like, who cares? Like, this is the day, like this is race day, and now I feel like shit and I'm injured. Like, that's not any fun. Right. That's not anyone. Yeah, and that's where I stick with the I would rather be an inch too short, you know, than you know, or a mile too short than an inch too far. Like, I want to feel healthy, I want to feel good, I want to feel like I can compete that day. I don't want to just, you know, train for my training days. I want to train for the event. So cool. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, man. I love it. So I think the one of the last things I wanted to touch on a big reason people stay injured longer than they should. And and I know you that you want to talk about sleep and nutrition, and you just touched on recovery and overtraining and everything like that. Um but a big reason for this is because they become uh fearful of movement. So this is super, super common in PT where if people had a very significant injury, sometimes a recurring injury or something that required surgery, big or small, they become terrified to do uh certain movements again, especially like back pain patients, right? Like if they herniated a disc. Like that's a that's a pretty rough injury to come back from. But then they get this like mental block of I shouldn't move this way, or I shouldn't do this too quick, or I shouldn't lift too heavy, or whatever it might be. And it starts to basically cause this like downward spiral. I think I've talked to you about this before where it's like, oh, people stop moving, so then it gets worse, and then they stop moving even more because they're scared, and then it gets even worse, and it's just downward, right? And it just keeps going. And that's a really scary thing because it's like what I try to teach as a PT to my patients is like, no, the movement isn't the issue, but maybe it's the intensity or the load, or that your body wasn't ready for that. It didn't have the capacity for that yet. It wasn't able to tolerate whatever movement you did. So our job now is to build that tolerance. I say that day in and day out. It's like my biggest job is to build your tolerance so you can get back to moving, like how a normal human should be able to move and not be fearful of it. Right. So anyway, that's that's a big topic for me because that's what keeps people injured longer than anything, in my opinion, is they become fearful and they're just like, no, I don't want to do that movement. So then they never do it. But then in real life, right, when they're not training in a gym or a safe place like this clinic, in real life, they go to do that movement and they hurt themselves again. So it's like you avoiding that movement in the gym is uh what the worst thing that you could do because it's in real life, our bodies have to move and be functional and lift and turn and twist, whatever. So it's like training those in a controlled environment and starting at a really uh tolerable level and building from there just to build capacity, period. It just teaches us that uh we know how to move and we have to trust that movement again. So anyway, that's uh that's huge. I will say this is that our bodies like to move and they need to move, period. Like our bodies do not like stationary positions, so it's like when people become fearful of movement of doing anything too intense, it just gets worse. That's what I want to leave that at because after that it starts getting a lot deeper.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

So no, I and I've seen that more on the strength training gym side of things where people will avoid certain lifts because they aren't good at it or they're weak in those positions. So they just avoid it altogether. Yeah. And so, like you said, it's like, okay, well, when you actually come into a point where you have to utilize that movement pattern, whether it's in a sport or just in general life, and then they get injured doing that movement, anyways, they would have been better off just doing that movement at a lower intensity, lower volume in their training sessions and just avoiding it altogether.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah, and when you have a coach around or a PT around that understands that movement and how to progress it safely or break the movement down so it's more comfortable, it's like that's the best way you could possibly do it. So then when you go out to the real world and you actually have to do that shit, then it's like, oh, my body knows what to do. Like it's easy, right? Once again, building tolerance is my biggest job.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

So yeah, no, I love that. I mean, and I I'd have written this down as a question for you, but how often as a PT is your prescription for recovery or rehab to do nothing?

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Not once in my career, not once.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

No, yeah, just yeah, do nothing, just avoid it altogether. Don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yep, but there's docs that say that, right? There's docs that say that all the time. They'll, of course, like, you know, refer to PT or whatever. But then there's a lot of doctors that I've heard this firsthand from patients. I'm like, okay, so you went to the doc, you had x-rays, whatever. I'm like, what did they tell you to do or like start working on? And they're like, well, they just said to rest it for a few weeks. And I'm like, ooh, like, that's the opposite of what we want, right? Because then it's like, if it's a knee issue, it's like, you still got to use your knee to walk. So what does resting really even mean? Right. I don't know, man. It it's it's interesting, but I don't think I have ever told anyone, hey, go home, rest in bed, don't do anything. My thing when people walk out of this door, 99% of the time, I'm like, hey, keep moving, stay walking, right? If you feel like uncomfortable and take breaks, like do what is needed. But here's your exercises, right? And with my home exercises that I send home with people, I'm uh fairly strict depending on the condition, because once again, if we can increase week weekly volume, weekly frequency, then better adaptations a little bit quicker, right? If I'm just doing one thing a week with my PT patients, that's not gonna do very great, right? So with home exercises, it's not like I'm sending them home with like 10 things. I send them home with like two exercises to work on, but I'm like, yeah, you should do this every single day. And it's gentle movement, like with a back pain patient, as lame as this is, because I tell them, go home, do cat cows, for example, right? And then do low trunk rotations. There you go. That is nice, gentle, offloaded movement. It helps with motor control. And then because you're doing the easy shit at home, when you come see me, that foundation is already there. And then we don't have to worry about doing that in the clinic anymore. We can start doing more functional things, if that makes sense, or more intense things.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah, no, it's the same thing in like the strength and conditioning literature in terms of active recovery, right? It's more beneficial and more advantageous to go for a walk or do some kind of low intensity, low volume type of exercise than it would be to just sit your ass on the couch all day and not do anything.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Say for the people in the back, too, that um you know, want to do ice baths or they want to do sauna. Sauna is great, has good benefits, don't get me wrong. But guess what? For like soreness, like you just talked about, the best thing you can do is go move, right? Like walking is literally one of the best recovery tools that you could ever do.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah. Maybe walk, maybe eat some food, like something, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Just move around a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah, put some fuel in your tank, get some good sleep, move around a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yep. Cause dude, I can't stand when when docs or PTs or Kairos or strength coach or whatever somebody has a little bit of an injury, a strain, whatever, doing a little bit of rehab, and they say, Okay, well, just go rest. I'm like, dude, you're getting rest when you sleep, right? Like, if you're getting good quality sleep, that's when your body's rebuilding and doing all of these cellular like adaptations that are actually helping you recover and repair tissue and everything like that. It's like, we don't need you to go home and lay around all day. It's like you need to move, you need to get comfortable with that, right? Don't, of course, like I said, take breaks when needed, blah, blah, blah. It's all dependent on the patient. But don't just go lay around because guess what? You get enough of that when you sleep.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Yeah, no kidding. So no, you brought up sleep, and I actually had looked up some research in in terms of sleep and recovery. And so research is basically the majority of it is showing that you're getting a reduction strength uh in strength and power with lack of sleep, right? But more importantly, you're getting an increased perceived effort, it slows recovery and increases the risk of injury. So I think in terms of being an athlete and looking at sleep as a recovery tool, if I know if I'm getting less than seven hours of sleep, I'm getting a reduction in power output strength, my perceived effort is higher, meaning if I'm supposed to be doing an easy workout, it's going to seem like it's harder than it actually is. And then I'm getting an increase for injury risk. Like those are all very terrible things. And the majority of research is showing that with anything less than six or seven hours a night, which I mean, I don't even know if I get eight hours consistently every night now, just with how how crazy life is, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Like sleep is just so, so important. And I did actually see something that showed that you get a 10 to 15% decrease in daily testosterone when you're less than five hours of sleep per night. So for those people that are just sprinting to the doctor's office for their you know TRT, but they're not getting any sleep. Maybe let's try getting some sleep first before you start, you know, injecting testosterone into your body when you might not actually need it.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yep. Sleep and whole foods, dude. I mean, the effects on testosterone, progesterone, estrogen, everything like that, when you actually have good fuel and you're getting good recovery goes through the roof, dude. That's one of the best ways to naturally boost your testosterone. There we go. There's our free advice for the day because you know, those ads that pop up, it's like how to naturally boost your testosterone. Doctors hate us, right? Like that whole thing. So yeah, dude, just sleep.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Freaking sleep. Yep. Yep. I'm not a doctor, but I have no issues with my testosterone. And I just tell you, I make sure I get enough sleep, eat enough food, and train hard.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

So, and everyone's different. Obviously, there's people that definitely need you know, testosterone replacement.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

But yeah, if it's like a pituitary gland thing or whatever, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

But I think we could both agree that the prescription of testosterone right now is like ridiculously overemphasized right now. It almost seems like that's the current trend.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Oh, it is a trend, absolutely, because guess what? Everyone's tired, everyone's exhausted, everyone is groggy. Like everyone thinks that they're the most tired person on earth, right? Everyone thinks that they're working harder than everyone else and that they shouldn't feel this way, right? Or man, I just, I just don't have energy at the end of the day, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, yeah, that's kind of how life works. We get tired. We're humans, we need sleep, we need rest, we need recovery, right? It's like, that doesn't mean you should just start blasting gear. That's not what that means at all. That's usually not the reason why. So I'm not a huge, huge advocate for testosterone unless it's like medically needed.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

So yeah, yeah, I'm not if you if you need it, obviously it's it's extremely important. But I just again, people looking for the quickest way to the you know, to the result or to the finish line. And I think that's the answer for some people. So instead of, I mean, it's a lot harder to force yourself to get more sleep, force yourself to eat better, force yourself to train hard in the gym. It's way easier to just go get a prescription, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:18

So but we should we should look up the article. Um, this is from Jeff Nippard. I watched this video probably 10 years ago. Okay, but there is an actual paper out there, and we should find it. This should be like our task for like the weekend or something, where there was a group that did no training but injected testosterone. There's a group that did training with testosterone, and there's a group that just did training no test, right? Dude, the lowest muscle mass, I guess, improvement was the one that had no testosterone. So they they were saying that if they injected testosterone and didn't even train, they put on more muscle mass in untrained individuals than people who trained without testosterone. I thought that was the most ridiculous thing. And there is a paper out there because he talked about it in a full-length video. It was like a 30-minute video. It was wild, dude. So we'll have to find it because yeah, it that's the quick, easy shortcut. But hey, man, that's gonna fuck up your hormones and your emotions for the long term.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

So yep, yep. Yeah, well, hey man, I mean the last thing I got in terms of like nutrition and sleep was just so when we look at the biggest factors um that determine adaptation, recovery, and injury risk, the literature is pretty consistent, saying that we need appropriate training load and volume, like we talked about, sleep, energy intake, specifically protein and carbohydrate availability. Those are going to be your biggest bank for the buck in terms of reductions in injury and increases in performance, is focusing on load management within the gym. How are you manipulating volume and intensity and recovery? Um, second to that is are we getting enough sleep? We're getting eight hours um a night of sleep, and then energy intake is make sure you're eating enough food. Like you see that time and time again where people aren't fueling properly for the you know, for the training that they are actually doing.

unknown 52:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

So I love it. Yeah, I think those are your biggest hitters. If you just focus on those, I think you're gonna be in a much better spot than you were previous.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

100%. I think that's a great place to leave it off, man. That's perfect. Oh yeah, it's perfect. Oh yeah. Well, I appreciate you jumping on the Zoom and still getting an episode done this week. And yeah, we will tune in again next Monday, you know, scheduling, you know, permitting at least. So we will see. But thanks everyone for tuning in, and hopefully you learned something today. So that is it. Audios.