Episode 7 - The Silent Grief of Survival - with Nathan Darvill

In this deeply personal episode of Grieving Greatly, Jenelle sits down with Nathan Darvill — Director of Expressive Mind Therapy, friend, colleague, and someone who has quietly carried many layers of grief throughout his life.

Together, they explore a kind of grief that often goes unseen:

The grief of surviving.

Not just grief through death, but grief through trauma, identity loss, mental health struggles, relationship breakdowns, chronic stress, physical health challenges, and the parts of ourselves we lose along the way.

Nathan shares openly about:

•  Military life and identity loss 
•  Mental health and invisible grief 
•  Relationships, divorce, and isolation 
•  Weight loss and body image 
•  Chronic stress and survival 
•  AFL as both connection and lifeline 
•  Learning how to keep going when life changes you forever 

This episode is for anyone who has ever felt like they lost parts of themselves while trying to survive life.

Because grief isn’t always about losing someone.

Sometimes it’s about losing who you used to be.

If this episode resonates with you, please share it with someone who may need it.

Support Services:
 • Lifeline Australia — 13 11 14
 • Grief Australia — 1800 642 066

Harrys Helping Hands Grief & Loss Counselling - Jen Connors - 0431212575

#GrievingGreatly #GriefPodcast #MentalHealth #Trauma #IdentityLoss #InvisibleGrief #MensMentalHealth #Healing #SuddenLoss #GriefSupport

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

No one tells you that grief doesn't just come from losing someone you love. Sometimes it comes from losing parts of yourself. The version of you that felt safe, the version of you that felt strong, and the life you thought you were going to have. And the hardest part, you're still here, expected to keep going, even though something inside you didn't make it through. Hi and welcome to Grieving Greatly, a space for the parts of grief we don't always say out loud. Today's episode is a little different because we're going to be talking about a kind of grief that often goes unseen and unrecognized. Not just grief from death, but grief from life. A grief that comes from trauma, from losing identity, from relationship breakdowns, from health challenges, or from the quiet accumulation of things that change you forever. And to explore this, I'm joined by someone who has lived through all of those layers. Today I'm joined by Nathan Darvel, Director of Expressive Mind Therapy, and a valued friend and colleague who has been my main supporter over the years. Nathan has experienced significant life challenges, including his time in the military, mental health struggles, changes in identity, relationships, and health. And I want to explore today is not just what happened, but the grief underneath it all. Nathan, thank you so much for being here. For people who may not know your story, can you share a little about your journey and what life has looked like for you over the years?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Hey Jen, thanks for having me on the podcast today. Yeah, look, um, I've been on this earth for 43 years now and I've had a lot of time to reflect on where I've come from and where I am now. Um and unfortunately, I look back in that reflection and and see um a lot of tr a lot of trauma. Um dating back to early childhood trauma of uh parents um separating, um that being quite a messy, abusive uh breakup, uh to not having a father figure in my life after separation, um to being uh effectively kicked out of home at the age of 16, um having no support, no financial backing, no roof over my head, um, to joining the military as really a last uh ditch effort to put a roof over my head to have financial stability um and and to obviously progress in my life in a positive way. Um and then uh early on in my military career being deployed to Iraq in 2004 uh and unfortunately seeing uh the side of the military that's not pleasant to see through um through death, um through terrorism, uh as well as on top of that deploying uh to Northern Australia um in doing border protection operations and having to to pull bodies out of the water um in very challenging sea conditions. Unfortunately, asylum seekers thought there was no other option but to um gain asylum in Australia through transiting um the rough waters that are at Northern Australia and uh up towards Indonesia. Um and then having my own relationship breakdowns um in my first marriage, um messy court cases with um my eight-year-old son, who's eight now, um, with another ex. Um and and since then just a real lack of capacity to be resilient um as a result of all that and not having the same capacity to recover um from life's challenges has has been a real big struggle. And even now as I sit here today, I still ride the waves of um really strong emotions that I feel uh I find it really hard to just get out of bed in the morning and and live a relatively normal life like other people do.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, it just sounds like there's been some really huge, significant moments of change in your life. When you hear the word grief, what does that mean to you personally?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I think that uh grief is not a word that I really understood or or uh recognized within myself upon ref upon reflection. Um and even in the moments when I struggle, I don't often relate to the word grief. Um but I think now, um now you know, post my professional journey as well as my strong ability to reflect now. Um grief to me is more of like a feeling or emotion for me personally and my journey of um what am I what have I lost and what am I missing out on in particular? Um for me it's more the latter, it's what am I missing out on? And uh a small example would be, you know, having really poor um parental guidance throughout my life and not having them as avid supporters in my journey, not having um, not being able to rely on my my parents to be there and support me when that's just is what most kids expect. They expect to have their parents close by and and supporting them through life's challenges. So um I feel like grief to me is that feeling of loss or separation from normality. Um, and that's what I'm really struggling with still at my age, um, halfway through my life.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, definitely a huge impact from your childhood and also your time in the military, the impact of that and who you felt you became afterwards. Can you explain a bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, um I think when when I was younger, I didn't really understand the challenges that I was going through. Um you don't quite understand the feelings and emotions, you don't understand how strong you were back then versus how weak you are now. Um I I think I'm a complete different person to what I was when I was younger. And obviously I understand the concept that um I'm I was still developing as a child. Um I still hadn't built the resilience, the strength, and all that. But I felt like back then I was such a strong individual. Like when when things would affect me, it would feel like I had like Ned Kelly armor on, that things would bounce off me and I I I I was able to move on to the next thing. And there just became a time and I couldn't I couldn't pinpoint a date or a time, but it would have been um probably around 2015 when I started to really suffer with my mental health, that I started to realize that I I had didn't have the capacity that I once did in being resilient and that everything felt like it just affected me. Uh even small things would affect me. And at that point I really struggled to look myself in the mirror and see the same um person I was when I was younger because I couldn't deal with things small, big, medium. I couldn't I I was struggling to get out of bed and deal with the day. These are things I'd never dealt with growing up, and all of a sudden, one day I wake up and bang, all this stuff just on top of me, and I didn't know where to turn. So yeah, I definitely saw a different person in the mirror now than I did back then. I just feel like a different person and I don't necessarily see that as a good thing either.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

No, it sounds like it feels like there was a sense of losing the person you used to be. Um, what parts of yourself do you feel you had to grieve after that experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Sorry, I missed that part again.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Um what parts of yourself do you feel you had to grieve after that experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Um I think um I think just uh the grieving over the sense of not being the person that I thought I needed to be. Um also um, and this is going a little deeper than the surface level, it's there's an expectation as a as a male and a man that you're the strong one, um, that you both emotionally, meant to mentally, physically, you're I don't want to use the word superior, but you know, like that we're just meant to be that rock. Um and I don't think anyone necessarily taught me that, but that's those social norms that you know I talked about. So for me, um, when I looked in the mirror like now, I don't always see a man. I I still I see a broken person, but I don't see a man. And and for me, that's the grieving part. I don't feel like I'm where I need to be um individually as a man, um husband, parent, and everything. So I I I kind of feel like I'm in a sense of constant grief because of those feelings.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, it sounds like such a deep loss of identity or an identity you felt like you should be. Um definitely knowing you and your life, I think that you don't give yourself enough credit. And I think you are at least recognizing it as grief, um, sometimes that invisible grief. In amongst all of that, what's it been like living with the mental health challenges that followed?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Oh um very challenging. Um as I said, 2015 was about that moment, and now that I've managed to go, like I said, been through that professional um journey as well as my own personal development, I I I can see that my past trauma doesn't necessarily affect you in the moment all the time. Sometimes it comes later down the track. That was the biggest surprise for me. Is come 2015, all of a sudden, everything felt like it just dropped on top of me. Um and and and I couldn't handle it. Um and it was in those moments that I hit a really dark hole. Um, and I was talking about this in a previous podcast about that feeling like I've been swallowed up into a hole, and as I'm looking up, I can't even see the light anymore. It's just completely dark, and that hole um was so dark that I felt like the only option was to exit life. Um it's even really difficult to even think about and talk about now. Um, sort of I guess maybe eight to ten years uh uh after the fact. But um in that moment, there were two occasions where I tried to end my life. Um I couldn't I couldn't handle the pain, I couldn't handle feeling like I was so lost and I didn't know where to turn. Um therapy didn't seem to work in that moment. Um I now know the benefit of therapy. Um, but back then I really struggled. I just didn't feel like I was even capable of sitting there and and dealing with my problems. So um, yeah, I I really struggled in that moment. Um, but I I'm I'm I'm grateful that I'm still still sitting here and able to speak up about this and hope that anything that I mention may just help one or two people would be would be great.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, and I definitely want to highlight the part about it, it could can take years, and I think in amongst that time we're pushing it down a lot, we're trying to deal with it, and um a lot of people in those times where we should be over things or moving forward is where it hits hardest. Um, do you think there was a sense of grief in losing things like obviously your peace or even your sleep or your sense of safety in your own mind?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'll be honest, I'd never really thought about it, but in that context before. Um I think that yeah, now that you mention it and sort of just briefly reflecting on it, um, yeah, definitely there's there's so many things that I've lost in my capacity to be a human being based on my experience of the past. And the funny thing is, they're just everyday things like some of them that you mentioned, like you know, your peace and sanity and stuff like that. I just don't have that anymore. And that's just stuff that you think every human's entitled to and every human should have. But you know, when you're hit really big mental health challenges, um, you lose a lot of things about yourself. Um, and I guess the worst version is what I just mentioned of being in that dark hole and feeling like you just want to end it all. Um but if you can sort of identify early on those things that you're grieving over, you you can try to lay a bit of a platform of how you're gonna move past it to some degree through a lot of professional help and other things, but I don't think I had the capacity back then to understand and to deal with those complex grief emotions.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

And did you feel ever like people didn't fully understand, no matter what you said or how you talked about it, what you were carrying?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah, um, I think that's a really fantastic question. I think it's um I think it's something I want to highlight is that um lots of people can go through similar types of grief, I guess, but no one can ever truly understand the journey you're on. Um and I think yeah, there was added pressure that I put on myself, like no one's gonna understand me, no one's gonna be able to help me here, like who the hell would have ever walked in my footsteps? So you kind of close yourself off a little bit to that support and and and the help, but I think at the same time, um, there are lots of people who have walked in your shoes and can understand, but grief is such a journey I've now learned that you know me and you could deal with the exact same death, for instance, but the way that you deal with your grief is going to be so different to mine, and um, I guess that thought process has been very challenging to understand, to take that concept on um and to run with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, I really think there is a kind of grief in feeling unseen and in holding something that others can't fully understand. But do you agree we all have those different capacities or resilience levels or what we've been through in the past, an accumulation of grief on top of grief can just, you know, make us all deal with it in a different way. Um, and we've spoken, well, you've spoken to me about your weight journey and what did that chapter represent for you emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Um yeah, um look to expand on that topic. Um I've always played sport my whole life. Sport's been a huge part of what what I am, my identity. Um, I guess early on I recognized that I was athletic and I had a really good ability to play sport. Um, so it's something I spent a majority of my time invested in. Um it wasn't until well, so going back to when I joined the military at 17, I joined 85 kilos. I was very fit. I look at my photos from graduation day and I'm skinny, and um, you know, as much as I had some childhood dramas at the time, I was pretty proud of where I was at at that moment. Uh, but then fast forward down the track, when I started to get really impacted by my mental health journey, I I ended up on a lot of medication, um, and that medication caused weight gain. Um at one point I got to 143 kilos. Um, it almost repulses me to look at the photos of myself when I was at that weight. I can't believe I got into that state. Um, and it's only now um that I've gotten sort of back to a fairly consistent, happy weight. But I look back at to myself and I go, you know, yeah, I was I was living life. Like I was still playing football, I was still doing things, but I wasn't really living at that moment. I was um depressed all the time. I'd look at myself in the mirror and be upset with myself. I'd then continue to overeat, to overcompensate. Um, I wasn't able to effectively influence football games like I used to because of my weight. I was still performing okay, but not the level that's expected. I missed out on opportunities with things because of my weight. Even like I think the one moment where it really smacked me in the face. I was at um I was on the Gold Coast and I went to a theme park. It was um White Waterworld next to Dream World. Yeah. And I was um I was lined up for um that slide where you sort of stand up with your legs crossed and your arms across your chest and the floor drops and you drop and go down the far slide. Yep. The issue was is that they don't allow you to go on the slide over a certain weight. I think it's 120 kilos. And at that time I was around that, and but I didn't really, I didn't really think about it, I didn't think they'd take it too seriously. I didn't had no idea it was a safety concern or whatever. So I it took me about 20 minutes to get to the front of the line, and then I realized they actually had scales right at the start of the slide. Got on there and they said, Look, you're you're a few kilos over, we just can't allow it for safety reasons, you're not gonna be able to slide. And this is me a mature adult being told I can't go on a water slide. Yeah, that was a real moment where my heart sunk, and I really thought to myself, I've got to do something about this and change my life. And I'm back to sort of in I'm um right now I'm at the 90 kilo mark, which is fairly good for my age and height and everything, and I'm I'm fitter than I was when I joined the Navy, and I'm just I feel really good about myself, but it wasn't an easy journey to get here. It's still not. I still have to work so hard on my fitness to maintain this. Um, but yeah, I mean I'm in a good headspace when it comes to that side of things now.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting to point out that even positive change can still carry that grief on how you explained that for who you were and what what you had to go through in terms of how difficult it was. And you mentioned that you've also experienced relationship breakdowns in terms of your family of origin, but as well as a partner and the subsequent challenges surrounding that. What was that time like for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Well, I'd had um I'd had my parents' um relationship breakdown. I I think as a child you see your parents break down a little differently to how you see your own breakdown, because you don't quite understand the relationship context as a child with your own parents. You can see that they're fighting and not getting along, and I think a lot of kids go off, God, why are they together? you know, like they don't even like each other, don't get along, but that's about the surface level sort of thoughts. But it was when I um when I had my first sort of marriage to um my then wife Wendy, and I've got my two older kids, which are um uh Cooper and uh Rachel, um I was in the military and I was spending a lot of time away from home. Um and I didn't spend a lot of time with my kids growing up. It would have been they were 11 months apart, so it was kind of like having two newborns at the same time, and it put a lot of stress on my then wife. Um so I can see how some things um you know caused an issue for that relationship, but I think when the relationship ended, it was more the circumstances around why it ended that was the problem. And I certainly take uh blame myself for the relationship breaking down because it takes two to tango in a relationship, and I've I've always been forthcoming with my what I believe I contributed to the relationship breakdown. But obviously the hardest part for me was that um Wendy had had cheated essentially and and then moved this person into the house that we owned a couple of days after I'd moved out. Um so dealing with the fallout of that, um I had a real I had a real obviously like most relationships, I had a sense of loss from not having a partner anymore, you know, that I could talk. To and was a part of my life. But I think uh headspace-wise, I went to a dark place after that because I just saw how easy it was for her just uh discard me and move on to someone else. Um I still, up until probably I met my current wife, I still couldn't get past it, I still couldn't understand it. Um I now can put some context around it. For her, she had she'd already had a kid to someone else before me. Then she had the two kids with me. She had three kids, two different parts, two different exes. She saw another guy who was having problems in his relationship and saw the opportunity to connect with him. He was happy to take on that baggage, as I would call it. Um, and she took that opportunity when it came about, it just came about that we were still together at the time. We weren't in a good space, but we were together. So that really, on top of my childhood trauma of not being able to trust my parents, it was almost like my trust had been busted again. So a whole new grieving process. And then that had a flow, a backtrack flow and effect to bringing up my childhood as well. So it wasn't just that it was affecting me then and there on that incident, it triggered me from my past as well with my childhood trauma. So that's what I found the most challenging is you could be dealing with a a grief issue, but that can trigger so many other grief issues you've had in the past, and that's where I really find it hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

That's right, especially if you haven't had an opportunity in in any way to work through the grief from the past, then you're adding layers on top of that. Um, did you just feel really alone in that whole experience?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah, I think in the early stages, I I think that anyone that breaks up in a relationship um has that sense of loss and alone straight up. Um because you're so used to living in a co-dependent relationship, if you want to call it that, where you rely on each other and then not having anyone uh kind of yeah, isolated me a lot. And because I was in the military and always moving around, I didn't really have a cool group of friends because we'd just moved into the um South Coast region at that point. So I didn't really know too many people, didn't have a lot of people to rely on. Obviously, like I've mentioned, my parents were non-existent, so yeah, deeply alone in that moment. Um, it took me a very long time to even get the capacity to do anything in life, really. I just yeah, I didn't know what to do with myself.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah, I feel like those kinds of losses would be incredibly isolating, especially when life around you keeps on moving and you're just there dealing with it alone. Um, what about today? Um, any challenges ongoing, whether it's pain, sleep, or mental health, that how does it impact your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah, look, um I think I mentioned before about roller coaster. I would describe my life like a roller coaster. There are some really, really good ups in life, and like I think you mentioned before not giving yourself enough credit. I mean, I try to give myself credit where credit's due, um, but before I have time to really sit in those positive moments, it feels like that dip in the roller coaster comes so quickly and completely breaks me again. Um, and this is an issue that I have, is that um, and I relate it um not in a positive way, but to give context, is with like people who have drug addictions, for instance, they're always looking for that next hit because they feel like that next hit um makes them feel positive or makes them feel a good feeling. It's the same with my mental health, is that every time I go into the dip, I try to take on heaps of stuff to try to give me that next positive hit, like I'll apply for an award or something to be recognized, or um I'll try to do some random act of kindness to give me a boost. But what I found is no matter how many positive achievements, they only seem to last a small period, and then back I'm back at the grind again trying to find the next positive hit. Um it's it's brutal. Like the last few weeks I've been in such a dark hole again, not to the extent of thinking I need out of life or anything. It's just I just know that I'm really struggling in this moment. I'm in that downward dip, and I I need to figure out how to get back up and out again. So it's a constant battle with my mental health. And um, yeah, I also have the added issues around pain as well. Um I I spent 20 years in the Navy, and I'm sure you can imagine, but lugging um massive heavy ammunition boxes, up and down tight stairs in ships, um, lots of sport, obviously, because you've got to remain fit if you want to be in the military. Got fitness tests and all sorts of things. So yeah, I got a lot of arthritis in the body, a lot of injuries, and yeah, it has a really big impact on my ability. Yeah, I do still um play sport, but I'm still hindered significantly compared to the average Joe Bo playing sport. So it's very challenging. And then the pain mentally makes you feel weak, makes you feel like you're not contributing to your full capacity, makes you feel like you're not you're like a third-class citizen. So yeah, it's been really tough.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah, and you have spoken to me a lot about how important AFL is as being part of your life, almost like a lifeline at times. Um, what does that give you that maybe nothing else has over the time?

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, AFL's been a very constant thing in my life since I was six years old. Um I was telling the story recently about um I was living with my parents in um southeastern suburbs of Victoria, uh, Melbourne in particular, and heard the whistles blowing at the local field. And when I went down there, there was a whole lot of um kids from my school there who I knew. I wasn't really best mates or any, just knew them and yeah, eventually got um invited down to come to training. And as soon as I picked up the ball, kind of felt at home straight away. It's weird to say that about a an oval ball, but uh it's um it's just something I connected with straight away. As soon as I kicked the ball, you know, the initial kicks were natural, like they they were good, like I was good at it, and that sense of achievement gave me a positive boost straight away. And I think now that I reflect back on it, I wasn't a popular kid at at primary school, but because I was good at football, people naturally gravitated to me. I was invited to play in at lunch times in the local schoolyard footy. Um, the principal was offering me a can of coke for every goal I kicked, and you know, you just there's something about it that just gave me a real positive boost, and that's had a flowing effect all through my life to the point now where just being apart and connected with people and enjoying a game that you all love and having that camaraderie, it gives me that boost and that energy that I need. And I probably overdo the footy at my age these days, but while I'm still fit enough and enjoying it, I don't see an issue with it. I'm just I'm just really enjoying the journey and I hope it doesn't end because it's a huge part of my life. And I am super, super emotional when I think about having to hang the boots up when I'm not physically capable anymore, um, or it just becomes too much on my body. So yeah, um there's a lot that I'll lose when I eventually stop, but I'm hoping I can push it as close to uh the end of my life as I can, so I'm still doing it forever.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yeah, it definitely does sound like it's represented so much beyond the game it itself over the time, and really am mindful from not what you just said then, but we've spoken about it over time that sometimes the things that do help us survive can also be the things that we worry about losing. And I am wondering from what you just said, have you ever thought about what that transition might look like for you when AFL isn't in your life the same way as it is right now?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Of course I've had thoughts about what it looks like. Um but right now I can't see an alternative. Um I just love the game so much. I've this year I've trans well, I haven't transitioned, I'm still playing, but I've sort of started taking up coaching again. Um I've done umpiring, I've played, I'm now coaching again. I really do love imparting my knowledge. Um 36 years of playing footy, I've got a lot of it, and I want to impart that knowledge on the next generation of footy players, and I still enjoy being part of the football club structure. And it's not just the getting on the field part, it's the training, it's the social events, um, it's all of it. It does it is very time consuming, but it's something that I'm passionate about. So I think if I was to continue on in the game um post-playing, and it'd be as a coach, as an umpire, still remaining a part of the game because you still get the camaraderie as well. So I yeah, I I can't see myself stepping away from AFL the game totally ever.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

No, and it's good to still keep that connection because I think sometimes the things that do save us over time are also the things we're quietly fearing to lose, and if you can still be part of it in that way, uh that's you know really beneficial. What would you say to someone who feels like they've lost everything but they don't even realise they're grieving?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Oh, that's a good question. Um I think for me I I now sort of rest on my professional knowledge as well as my own personal knowledge, but I would say that you can still be going through a grief and a loss journey. Um, but at the same time you can still have a lot going for you in life as well. And the grief and loss for me has kind of felt like a smoke curtain that blocks out your ability to realize that yes, you're going through a tough time, you've lost something, whether it be a person, an animal, or even just your identity in some way. But there is so much to live for, and there is so much positivity around your life. It's just sometimes a matter of reminding yourself what that is. So, and I've realized that by doing that, it does help in the grief process. Not that there's a set schedule for that process, but that um reminding yourself of the positive things in your life can help that grief process um not be as drawn out or not be as painful at times. No one's going to tell you at what level that looks like. It's just for me, I found that that has been something that I now that I now go to when I'm in in some sort of a grief or loss situation is that I will remind myself of the positivity around me, whether it's, you know, my wife who's extremely supportive, or I've got kids who have got things coming up to sort of refocus myself on some of those other things as well. But I would say um to anyone that if you're dealing with grief and loss, don't be hard on yourself. Um, the process is a process, but it's not the same for everyone. And don't judge yourself on your own processes because um what gets you through your journey is unique to you and that is okay. It's always okay to go through the journey yourself in your way.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Definitely. And just to acknowledge everything that you've spoken with us about today, at the at your lowest point, what do you think you could advise people to do uh to have that hope to continue on like you have and to be able to see any positives?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Um well I would I would like to think that um people could uh reach out for help a lot earlier than I did. Um obviously I'm very lucky to be here because I tried to follow through with not being here and uh luckily it I didn't manage to get that far. But um I now know and I'm extremely r reflective of my own feelings and emotions now. So no matter how small your depression, anxiety, or mental health feelings and emotions are, reach out, talk to somebody. Um if it's if it's like low-key depression and anxiety, it's you know, it's just some light, light feelings and emotions in the body, reach out to a trusted friend, a family member, let them know that you're struggling so that they're there, they can support you. But most of all, if you mention mental health or a family, a friend, they're probably gonna give you the advice you need, and that's go get some professional help, talk to someone. Um, and if it's and you if you can know that you are getting really bad, that's when you really need to be strong enough and say, I want to live, I've got a lot to live for, I'm gonna go reach out and get this help. And don't ever feel like you're not a real human being, whether it's from getting professional help from a psychologist or a counselor, or even ending up in a mental health war, which I have done myself, that is not a weakness, that is you investing in your own uh positive mental health journey to get back to where you want to be or where you feel like you need to be to live a valuable and fun life going forward. Because the message I say to everyone when I speak about this is that life is so bloody short. Um, you know, a hundred years if you live that long seems like a long time, but it goes quickly, and we don't always live as far as we want to. So you've got to make each moment count. And no matter what age you are, you have still got so much to give to this world, to your family, your friends, and society. So never feel like you have to give up. Get help and move forward.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Thanks so much, Nathan. And I know um you've always been there for me in my down periods and hearing about how your struggles are still ongoing, but you are able to provide hope to others, and you know, your professional as well as our friendship journey has always helped pull me through those times as well. And I feel like what stands out most from your story is that grief doesn't always have to come from death, and sometimes it comes from everything that you had to survive. And I really appreciate you uh being here in my podcast for today and everything that you've shared, and hope that it reaches the right people. If this um episode did resonate with you and you've been through things that have changed you, or you've lost parts of yourself along the way, I want you to know that your grief is real, even if no one has named it before. You are allowed to grieve and the life you thought you'd have, or the person you used to be, and the parts of you that didn't make it through. And even here, even in that, you are still here, and for us that matters. For Harry and for anyone learning to live in a world that kept going, thank you for being here. And before you go, I want to leave you with this. You'll always be enough for me, and you'll never be too much. I'll be here with you in the next episode, and just a gentle reminder: if today brought up anything difficult, please reach out for support. You can contact Grief Australia on 1-800-642-066, Lifeline Australia on 131114, or reach out to me directly on 0431 212 575. You don't have to go through this alone. Thanks again, Nathan, so much for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Thanks, Jen. Appreciate it. You have a lovely day.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Thank you. Bye.