Episode 2 - Every Child Matters: Bringing Children Back to the Centre

In this powerful episode, Jannine Perryman is joined by Jo Roberts, founder of the Every Child Matters campaign, for an unflinching conversation about what happens when children stop being the focus of education systems.

Drawing on their shared experience as teachers, SEND advocates, and parents, Jannine and Jo explore how the original child-centred principles behind Every Child Matters have been diluted over time, replaced by data, targets, stretched systems, and battles families were never supposed to have to fight.

Together, they discuss:

why children’s needs must come before systems
the reality of EHCPs, tribunals, and diagnosis pathways
school distress and attendance difficulties
why education does not always have to look like school
the growing shortage of educational psychologists
that parents are the experts in their own child
the widening gap between SEND law and SEND practice

At the heart of this conversation is a shared belief that children are being failed not by their needs, but by systems that treat those needs as inconvenient.

This is a candid, thought-provoking episode for parents, professionals, and anyone invested in creating education systems that put children, not data, back at the centre.

And yes, after all that, Jannine and Jo finally discover the one thing they disagree on: cats.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to ADHD Wise Podcast. I'm Janine Perryman, and this is a space for open conversations about ADHD and neurodiversity, bringing together lived experience, professional insights, and the questions that help us move forward. Wherever you are in your journey, you are welcome here. Hello everyone and welcome to ADHD Wise Podcast. I'm Janine and today I have with me Jo Roberts. Hello, Jo, how are you doing? Hello, Janine. I am okay, thank you. Quite excited to be here. Oh, I really appreciate you being here. Now I met Jo when she was running a campaign that I got involved in. Jo, do you want to tell us a little bit about that campaign? Because it's quite topical, isn't it? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Um I run the Every Child Matters campaign. Um it is based on a government incentive that was alive in the early 2000s. And when I started teaching, it was it formed the basis of many of the interview questions that I was asked. Um, and essentially it was in response, I think, to the Victoria Klimbay um incident, and it was designed to ensure that every child was supported, um, and every child thrived, and every child had an opportunity to achieve. Um, so I started the campaign because I wanted to bring people together. I wanted to bring all of the voices in the send community together. Um, and I kept it sort of deliberately loose, if you like, um, in terms of stance, because lots of campaigns are doing lots of very specific things. And I wanted to just show how many voices were united in trying to strengthen support for our children and young people with Send, um, regardless of of which particular avenue they were going down. Um, and so really the campaign was designed to unite campaigns. Um and just recently we've been talking about, well, we've we've held a real national conversation on SENT, which is ongoing actually. I'm sort of doing a couple of podcasty type things with people, just catching up with them if they perhaps couldn't make us on the day.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So glad to impart it there. It ends up being quite a number of us in the end, didn't there? Because you kind of you kind of and I think you had to stretch the window of um of what you were doing as well to incorporate everybody because there are so many of us who are saying the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's um yeah, there's there are a lot of us with some real concerns, I think, about the way that the government is sort of the trajectory that they 100%.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

And and similar to you, I've I've I was sort of like um very appreciative of the Every Child's Matters initiatives when they were when they were there, and you could see the progress was being made. And the ideology I had as a teacher was was built upon that framework. And I and I believe yours was as well, because you were also a teacher, weren't you?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, absolutely. I taught for 17 years. Um and yeah, it was very much when I first started teaching, we were using that framework to support our young people. Um, I did seven years in mainstream, and actually I left mainstream um when that framework was discarded um because of the damage that was being done by the new curriculum and the the testing and the the assessments and the everything else that just took the forefront. Um, because all of the children that I'd worked with, and I've always gravitated towards those who were, you know, struggling. Um, but all of the children that I worked with, they they were I just didn't feel like it was about the children anymore. I felt like it had completely gone back to to data sets and not the children.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Well children have become data, haven't they? They're they're um the the actual outcomes of children are less important than than the data that relates to those children because we're only valuing what we measure.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, absolutely. Um and even, you know, even in special schools, unfortunately, that is still the case. Um it's not every special school. There are some really, really good ones who absolutely put the children at the heart of it. But I think, and particularly I think where there are multi-academy trusts, um, it is all about data. It's all about progress. Um and it's not about progress in the right areas, it's always, always about something academic.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I think because one of the things that came out from the campaigns we were talking about, um, or I know I spoke about the um the Warnock report, and and the things that came out from that were that the needs of the child were supposed to be central to everything, and that that's just got diluted over time. Um and that's actually really, really problematic because that means that we're actually prioritizing money over need, and the need doesn't go away just because it's inconvenience to the system, and therefore the need grows because we're adding trauma onto the existing need, and therefore the the provision that children get by the time they get to a specialist provision, and you and I are examples of teachers that have worked in alternative provision, and I think lots of parents are afraid of what alternative provision might look like. It kind of looks like us. Or it can do, it doesn't always, but it can look like us, and I think lots of parents are afraid of what it looks like. Well, you know, maybe this kind of helps you to think actually there's some professionals out there doing the the work of teaching in in those schools that you know really do make a difference. Um and so there there is that. What was it that made you leave teaching?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I really struggled in almost every school I worked in um to consistently perform in the way that it was expected that I did. I basically well, I don't know how many cycles of burnout I hit, but I hit burnout over and over and over again. Um and the last time that I hit burnout, I I I pulled myself out just before, just before I hit rock bottom. Um, and that gave me the space and the time to really reflect on what was causing it and where could I go from here. Um, you know, I have an inherently strong sense of justice. Um and really? I haven't noticed. Um and I really struggle when I feel that things are unfair. Um not just for me, but particularly, you know, for my team or the the children that I was working with. Um and in advocating for people, I made myself incredibly unpopular over and over and over again. And I could never stay in a job longer than a couple of years. Um and every time I I moved on, I sort of thought, oh, it'll be better, it would be better. And I thought, you know, I I convinced myself that it would be better, and it never was. It never was. Um and so my son has also struggled um since he started school. He didn't make it through reception in his first school. He didn't, well, he he he managed okay in year one in his second school, which was a tiny village school. Um, but actually he couldn't cope with year two. He's been at home since November, and I could sort of see the signs in him. Um, so yeah, when when I last hit burnout, I thought I'm just not gonna do this to myself again. I'm gonna try to support people to understand neurodivergence better. I'm going to try and support settings to understand neurodivergence better. And I'm going to try and support both me and my son better. Um, and do do this a different way.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yay! So we've got that in common. We've got that very, very much in common. Um, because obviously now we're we're both um you obviously have your service, which you're absolutely welcome to plug. Um, and obviously I have I have mine, and there's kind of like overlaps in the in the things that that we do. How are you how are you finding it? You find in schools are receptive and wanting that kind of input?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I have I have had a mixed bunch. Um I have had some who have been really grateful for the support. I have had others who have um really not wanted me anywhere near it. Um, and I have been issued things like cease and desists. Um because I've been requesting information on behalf of families that they have every right to have. Um so yeah, a real mixed bag. I've had some really interesting conversations with um educational providers who aren't schools actually, who are quite interested in working with me and being able to refer to me and things like that. Um, and certainly some of the community projects around here have have expressed an interest in being able to refer people over for my service, particularly for the advocacy side of things.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Okay, so bearing in mind that the mission of this podcast is the north star of this podcast is to um to is to consider what people need. When you think about parents who are um in this journey and they've got children who are struggling for whatever reason, what do they need to know that you know, a bit of wisdom that you can pass on that is you you you hope useful for for parents who have been through, who are going through what we have been through, or professionals even who are going through what we've been through to get to this point.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

I think um you are the expert in your child. That is first and foremost. You are the the expert. You'd know when they're not okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

You do, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Absolutely. And your job as their parent is to safeguard them, um, to ensure their safety, and that includes their mental health. So if they are struggling, mental ill health is just as valid a reason to not be in school as physical and ill health. Um I think one of the biggest things, yeah, I know people worry, oh yeah, but they're gonna be behind. There's no such thing as behind. It's an absolute rubbish, you know, statement. Um, because apart from anything else, if you force a child into school, if you force a child into an environment where they're dysregulated, they're not going to learn anyway. No, they're not. Get them back to a place of safety where they feel safe and they will learn. And education doesn't have to look like school, does it? No. No, we're hardwired to learn. You know, I that's what our brains do. We are they are processing units, they take in everything. And when you're in a good place and when you're interested in the subject matter, you will learn. Agreed. All right.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So parents sort of remember and absolutely never doubt it, you are the expert in your child. I say that all the time as well. And I wish somebody had had told me that. I um I remember when I was trying to get support for Becca, who's my youngest one. She's gonna be one of the one of the one of the early guests actually on this podcast, um, and I was struggling to get support for her. Um, Her Senko accused me of trying to pathologise my child, and that happens quite a lot to professionals, you know. Um, because you're a professional, you're trying to pathologize your child. And it's just like, and I stopped and I thought, am I? Am I? And I think back and I think that probably cost us about nine months of extra pain, where Becca suffered, I suffered, the whole family suffered really, um, because I was gaslit, actually, um, into doubting myself. And I think that I want parents to understand that, you know, when we say you are the expert in your child, if that can happen to us as professionals in terms of being making you doubt yourself, it can easily happen to you. So really, you know, sort of like recognizing that. And I'm big on saying to parents, you don't you're not expected to be experts on neurodiversity, on send, on needs, on cognition, on learning, but you are the expert on your child. And actually, when you put the the wealth of knowledge that professionals are supposed to have together with the knowledge that the parent has got, the child wins.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

It's not what we're seeing, is it? We often see sort of like meetings where the parents are diminished.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah. It's that yeah, everything is blamed on the parenting, isn't it? And then they send you on a parenting course, or they try to. Um, and the parenting course is essentially ABA dressed up as support. But I think, you know, one of the things when when I was when I first started wondering about my son's neurodivergence, I think he was about two, and I was working in a special school, and he was really, really struggling with transitions to the childminder. Um, and and then out again the other end. And I I almost convinced myself that because I did what I did, um I was just looking at it too closely. You know, I I g gaslit myself essentially, but was very much helped along the way by people like my head at the time, who said, Oh yes, but he'll just be feeding off your anxiety. Or um, he's only two, they all they all do that at two, and things like that. And you just and and when you get that from a professional in the same space, um, and your family, and all the other people around you, you kind of go, Oh, well, maybe I'm just yeah, thinking too hard about this. When he then went to preschool, I was really, really lucky in that the one of the um earliest practitioners had autistic children and recognised the signs in him because that the childminder hadn't recognised, that everybody else was just telling me, Oh, that's just normal, you know, small person behaviour. And I sent them a list of really early sort of ADHD signs and said, Are you seeing any of these? And a bunch of early sort of autism things. And they came back and went, Yes. And I thought, oh, thank God for that. I'm not being completely mad. Um I'm I can now do something with this. That enabled me then to push and ensure that he had an EHCP in place for when he was um for when he started reception. And we got the diagnosis. Well, he went on a diagnostic pathway, he was on it for three years, but we did eventually get that diagnosis last June. So yeah, I think it's it's it's really easy to be duped into thinking that you don't know what's going on with your child.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, absolutely that. And I think that I've I've sat in meetings as well, and parents will get upset and um and they'll say sorry as they're dabbing their eyes. And I always say, No, don't apologize for being emotional about your children. As a professional, we would be more concerned if you weren't. And you kind of watch, or I do anyway, everyone in the space sort of like switch and think about that because we're sort of like um I think trained um to consider that when someone's being emotional, that their view is less valid. And actually the role of a parent is actually to be emotional about their child. That's actually the protective thing. I mean, and going back to the Mary Warlock report, which AHDPs and statements before were built upon, she actually predicted that we'd have this situation where local authorities and schools were trying to cut corners and the parents would have to advocate. It was it was expected, and and the parents would have to be a safeguard. It's unfathomable when that then that you see parents in this thing and you see them being referred to as usually mum. I do have I do support some dads as well. Um, just to sort of like put that out there. There are some sort of like proper power parents who were uh dads as well. Um, but the you have that sort of like, oh well, what does what does mum think? Well, mum thinks this, and it's just like hang on a second, mum has a name. Um, and actually that there's there's an expert in the room on that child who has spent more time with them than anybody else, um who knows what they're like when they are have got their guard down, who knows what they're like when they're in the safer space. And if we are not giving the proper weight to the perspective of parents, we are failing the child.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Um and I think that the the most frightening thing for me is just how much is blamed on parenting. There is a real lack of understanding and it's almost a deliberate lack of understanding. It's a no, we don't want to hear this, so we're not going to hear it. So we're right, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

But there's a point of law, isn't there, that if they're if the child has got an identifiable need, the school has an obligation to meet the need, and therefore they will deny the need because if they accept it, they have an obligation to at least try and meet it, right? And so I think they kind of shut down on it. And I don't think parents realise that's part of the agenda.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think a lot of that is um driven by local authorities. Uh the um the number of schools that I have been in that have they say, oh no, we can't do that because they won't accept it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They need to meet this threshold, they need to do that. And and actually the the law as it currently stands for statutory duty is very, very low. You know, the thresholds are low deliberately. If a child may have additional needs, if a child may need um additional support, that is the statutory test for uh an EHCP, or for certainly for an ex assessment.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Okay, but just oh, should we be a bit controversial? Should we be a little bit controversial and just run something here? Um, all right, so say you were say you're a a a local authority and you want to not spend lots of money on providing for what's stated in the HCPs. Mind you not fund, not support ed psych recruitment because then there's no definite evidence and you can play not on waiting lists, but actually you create the situation where you haven't done the recruitment. I mean, there is no waiting list, and you haven't, and when I say not done the recruitment, I don't just mean giving people jobs, I mean providing training opportunities because I wanted to train as an ed psych when I left the classroom. Um, I was doing my psychology training and I wanted to go and train as an ed psych. But I realized that the process meant I would have to be owned by the system for a significant amount of time. Um, and the process was was madly difficult, and I probably wouldn't be at liberty to always act in the best interest of children. And in my soul, I knew, and I still know, and I still hate that I wasn't able to do it, but I still know that I couldn't have done it, is I would not have been able to suspend the my need to always be acting in the best interest of a child, to be ha to be to be beholden to the politics of the situation. I've known, I think, actually, in the in in my in my area, that no matter who is funding me, whether it's local authority, whether it's the school, whether it's the family, or whether it's not at all, because I do some sort of social enterprise work as well, I will always do what I believe is in the best interest of the child. And when you're training as an ed psych, you don't always have that liberty. I was able to uh I read some stuff by the Dr. Joanne O'Reardan. I think it's it's it reordan? Reordin'. I got that name wrong. Reordan, I think. Riordan. Okay. Um she's she is great. Her stuff is her stuff is is great. Um and um she was saying about being able to push. Back within the authorities that she's worked for. But that isn't the case everywhere where you can push back. And in so many situations, they they own you for a long time. And if you if you if you leave, or if they fire you because you did what you were supposed to do for the child versus what you're supposed to do for the job, which unbelievably are two different things, then you have to pay it back. So if you leave or if they fire you, you have to pay back your what they what they paid for you to have done the training. Um and you have to have been doing it for a certain amount of time in order to be able to use the title of ed psych. And so we have so we have so few.

unknown 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

And actually, who does that serve?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And especially I'm sorry, that's really cynical. It's naughty of me. I said that you did and I did.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

But also I think um, you know, this shortage of educational psychologists will be partially driven by the fact that, yeah, like you say, what doing the best thing for the child is not always doing what the job entails, um, and vice versa. And there is a huge amount of governance or lack of governance, but um huge amount of editing um that happens once an ed psych report has been initially submitted to local authorities. So one thing that I've noticed particularly um in the last year or two is the people that I am supporting. The the ed psych reports that I'm seeing are becoming more and more and more diluted. They don't say what I think an educational psychologist wrote. They say what I think a caseworker has adjusted. Um and maybe it's not casework, maybe I mean I know.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It's the same with the DWP system, isn't it? That's what they do. So it would not surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

No, absolutely. Um and they're all, you know, they they're coming back saying similar things. They're not naming types of provision, they're not naming um specific and quantifiable, or they are, but it's almost like there's been a direction uh a directive that only that that's above ordinary available provision. And who knows what that looks like in reality, because quite frankly, it's yeah. So I think, yeah, that there's no if I was an ed site, because I looked into it and I very quickly shut it down for the same reasons you did, because I just thought, no. I can't work for the man. Well, yes. I can't be beholden to someone, and I cannot, in all honesty, say that this is the right thing for that child if it's not.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And this is then part of the problem because private edsychs who've who have blessed them and full credit to them, gone, put themselves through that process, coming out the other side, and they're now at liberty to write private edsych reports that stand up. There's so few of them. There are so few of them. And then you have schools and local authorities. I'm gonna say local authorities rather than schools, because I think you and I would both agree that actually there's too much with sort of like teachers blaming parents and parents blaming teachers and other education staff when actually wouldn't it be amazing if we all kind of clubbed together and said, actually, this is completely unacceptable, looked up and actually tackled what needs to be tackled. I think it's deliberate that we pitched against each other. And I've got ADHD, so I've just lost my track. What was I saying before I kind of like um I've got ADHD as well?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

I've got no idea. We were talking about Edsykes and the private ed psyches and there being so. Yeah, the private ed psyches, they there's so few of them.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

There are so, so few of them. But who does it serve for there to be few of them? And I think that I I mean I'm 52 and I was never this cynical. Um, and I am an idealist, and my idealism has got me into scrapes, I'll be honest. Um, however, I'm not prepared to compromise on my ideals, so that's kind of like where we are on why I couldn't possibly put myself through the edside process. Um, please understand that is not me knocking anybody who has. I trained to be a teacher, recognising that teaching was was challenging and that I may not stay all that long. Um, so I'm not knocking that people who've gone through that process and if I'm praising them for the fact that they have. Um, but it's it's the pain for longer-term gain that I knew I just wouldn't be able to do, um, but have a lot of um respect for those that have managed to. But the reality is there's just not enough private edsyches. So what they do is, this was the point I got to before I had my little tangent, is they will then demonize private diagnosticians and diminish the the merit of them because what they're what the professionals are saying doesn't meet the objectives of the local authority, even though they do meet, they do identify and meet the needs of the ch of the child. So they're in the best, they're written in the best interest of the child. Um and that's what an ed's like is at liberty to do. Um and the fact that there are so few of them, I think, is deliberate.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm 42, nearly, um, and I've always been this cynical.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I don't really want to change though, Joe. I kind of like that um I have a good hold of what things should be like, what things could be like. Um and then I think that I've got hopefully enough realism that it's like, okay, what is a fa what is possible to do under the current climate? And I think that we we probably have that in common, don't we? But I think and I think we also agree that the EHCP process is not actually broken. The problem with it is that it's the reason the tribunals come down on the side of families is because the the law is written in the best interest of children, and therefore the law is right, and therefore parents are right, parents are going to win the tribunal. Absolutely. It's just astonishing that parents and local authorities are at odds when you think about it. And I know when I went into when I've when I first when I've been a parent since I was 19, would not recommend, but you know, that's kind of like I wouldn't undo it either because it's kind of like the way it is, and I'm 52 and an empty nestor. There's a lot to be said for that. Um, but it's like just being in that the sort of thing of oh no, I've lost my train of thought again, Joe. What was I saying? I need to stop doing this to me. I'm busy listening. 52, 42, cynical, realism, optimism. Idealism with it's gone.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

It's going to be so funny listening.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

It was the law. It was the law, wasn't it? We were talking about the law. The law as it stands is absolutely correct and it just needs to be followed. Um, this is my concern with the children's well-being and schools bill, um, because that paves the way for secondary legislation without the proper scrutiny, or certainly without the scrutiny that you know it has at the moment. Um, and especially in light of the the school's white paper and send reform proposals, um, where they are essentially a we need to phrase this carefully, I think. Um, but they're introducing thresholds um for things like complex needs without defining what complex needs actually are. Um and it's it's basically rewriting the law as it currently stands um whilst diluting children and families' legal rights. And the the the sort of the state overreach within the children's well-being and schools bill is terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, I agree with you. I am I'm I'm very concerned because what we're basically saying is okay, a child can have a provision, but only if it's a provision that we that we already provide. Whereas the current system is what is the needs of the child, what is the best fit provision-wise for that child, and then what adjustments do we need to make to that provision in order to accommodate the child, and the School's Wellbeing Act will will just wipe the floor with that.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah. And and it takes away um parents uh well, the freedom of home. It's it's really frightening. You know, people don't pull their children out of school because they want to. They pull them out of school because they're broken, because they are hurting, because they can see the damage that school is doing. And forcing them back into school and actually giving local authorities more power when they can't.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Done well with the power they've got. They've given them more is is madness. And they police themselves, they're not answerable to anybody. Yeah, it's just bonkers. I don't understand. The only person that local authorities are currently answerable to is the tribunal via the parents. And with looking to say that can I just just go there again with that? Because I think that's actually, I think, really, really quite fundamental. The only the only modifying factor to local authorities at the moment is the tribunal service. And the only route to tribunal is parents, and they want to dilute the right of parents to get to the tribunal stage because the tribunals will hold up the best interests of the child, because that's where law is with the where law sits. Because I think that's where I mean I I I know we we've obviously spent six hours talking about it collectively at your amazing event. Is it five hours? Eight. Eight hours, okay. Eight we've already said for eight hours. Yes, you were. Well, I mean, that's the good that you know okay. Okay, let's go there with that a minute. Let's go there with that. Now I don't have school age children anymore. And I'm not a teacher anymore. And yes, I earn a proportion of my income from supporting families going through this, but probably in terms of the time that I invest in doing that, I'd be on less than minimum wage for like that whole thing. And then that then Bridget Phillipson made that comment about um, well, of course, um professionals who uh who are making money from this process object to this. And it's just like, and I don't think she was particularly having a pop at the likes of us because obviously she's thinking more about solicitors, but parents don't spend money on solicitors just because they want to. They spend money on solicitors and us and whoever else because they can't navigate it for themselves, and so they they find the lowest possible price option that means they can fight the system to get their child's needs met. I know what I was gonna say, or before I got one of my other tangents, and that was when I became a parent, the last thing I thought I was gonna have to do was fight for the rights of my children. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you think that's a given.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah. Yeah. It's just uh, yeah. And how hard you have to fight. It's it's the level of literally every single thing you have to fight for. You have to fight for the referral for diagnosis, you have to fight for the referral for an EHCNA, you have to fight then to have um the uh provision put in place. You have to fight for the right school, you have to fight for the right level of support, you have to fight everything, and then you end up with your child at home because the provision isn't in place, and it's never been in place, and they just about were managing it, and now they can't anymore. Um and I think one of the I know that governments have short-sighted goals because it's all about trying to keep them in power for the next term. Um, but the short-sightedness of the current proposals really baffles me. Um predominantly, because what do they think our workforce is going to look like in 10 years' time? You know, we've already got, you know, and they're blaming all of the money on send on disability and welfare and blah blah blah blah blah. But not once have they looked back and considered what's happened since the global financial crash in 2008, 2007, eight. Um and then, you know, how that the years of austerity that followed, the fact that then the curriculum changed, um, and the um, you know, we went from statements to EHCPs, and the law changed for the better, but has never been followed. But then you've got um Brexit and how much money that cost and still costs, and then you've got COVID, where we really should have gone bust. There you go, gone bust, but yet miraculously we kept our economy afloat. We've got all these really highly influential factors as to why there is in their terms no money, but we're also a sovereign currency. So from a from an economic point of view, if they need money, they can create money and then find a way to you know wiggle it out.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I really every time sorry, every time they have said it will be our children that pay for this, and they've said that as it's kind of like gone along, oh, it'll be our children that pay for this. Well, hello, here is our children paying for it, and we already always said they would. What we do is we blame parents and we blame teachers, and I I wouldn't go back. Um, I did you know the the the the um the way treat teachers are treated is absolutely appalling. Um, so we blame parents, we blame teachers, and we blame students, and it's like so many conversations I've had with schools, we've been saying, you know, and they're like, Well, I can't do I'm trying to do this, and I've got all these children that I've got to support, and that means I can't do what this child needs me to do, even if it's in an EHDP. And I'm like, okay, but that's not the child's fault. And you watch as the professional sort of takes a stick sit back and thinks, oh. And then they realise that that both teachers and students have been set up to fail. Children's needs don't go away just because they're inconvenient to an overstretched system, to an overstretched teacher. So you that comes out as behaviour, and then the child is at fault. So the child fails at mainstream when actually they've been failed by mainstream, and we're actually saying there's going to be no provision for them.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think with the falling birth rate, and they keep predicting, oh, we're not going to need all these teachers. Well, why don't we reduce class sizes then? Reduce class sizes, stop closing all the little small village schools and utilize them as that that in-between. You know, let let's let's use the resources that are already available. Um, you know, it really bothers me that we we are still and this school's pay white paper um pushes it even further. But it's everybody must do GCSEs and everybody's going to do this, and everybody's going to do that, and this percentage of people are going to be an education. But hang on a minute. We've got so many different qualification destinations. Um we there are functional skills, there are vocational qualifications, there are all kinds of things. They are already out there. You know, there is um, you know, why don't why don't we look at, rather than um GCSEs, why don't we look at everybody doing a or working towards a level one qualification at 60, regardless of what that looks like. Um I don't know if it's level one I want either, but you know what I mean with the levelling system, because it w all of the things are already there. It's all and and the thousands upon thousands of teachers who've left the profession because of the unrealistic workload, the unjustice of the situation, the fact that it is not about the children anymore, it is all about the data. If I was offered an opportunity to work in a little school with a broader range of parameters meeting the needs of the children, I'd think about it. I would think about it. Um, you know, if if we could determine actually, right, this is what we're doing, this is da-da-da, we are going to focus on progress that is um based on outcome not outcomes, um, individual interests and independence and all of those kinds of things, I would think about it. And I think there would be lots of teachers around the country who would be prepared to get back on board with education if education changed in a meaningful way for our children.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Yeah, I think that's I think that's fair. Um I I know that I wouldn't. And and one of the things I said to you at the beginning of this is like, can we try to think of something that you and I might disagree on? Um and I and that that uh other than the fact that I I wouldn't and you would, I think I think that possibly is kind of possibly it. I don't know if you've got any other things that because I wanted to uh one of the things I want this podcast to do is to normalise having discussions with people who you're not completely aligned with. Um but I think we probably are too aligned for that. But do you because is there anything that you think that we might disagree on?

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Um I don't know. I mean I don't it's cats and dogs.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

I I I love both cats and dogs, and I I lost a cat this year. Um so that's heartbreaking, but I'm I am more of a dog person, but I do love cats too. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Well, I'm a dog person and I don't really love cats. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

See, I can't understand why people Okay, there we found something. I can't understand why people don't love cats. One thing that blessed Toby, he was the most amazing cat, and I miss him loads because he used to come and sit on my lap while I was talking to children, and that used to sort of soften the conversation quite a lot when you're talking to children online and a cat just comes on and goes, Well, at you, it softens children um and softens me, and I miss him loads, but I don't miss the fluff. I don't miss I I like the fact that if I leave a pair of black jeans on the on the bed or on the floor drobe because I bit I'm I have chair drobe, a floor drobe, and the bedrobe and um I drive my other half mad with that sort of stuff, and it matters less now because I haven't got the cat that is going to leave fluff around. Otherwise, I kind of understand people don't like cats.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Well, I had cats at one point in my life. Um, it wasn't ever really a plan, um, and it wasn't a high point of my life, and they just used to continuously wake me up um by knocking things off the sides onto tiled surfaces and stuff like that. Um and my my husband, um, who I wasn't with at the time, um, is massively allergic to them. So there's a very good reason not to have cats. Um and I just think I got f a bit fed up with them constantly sticking their bottoms in my face.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah, they do do that. Okay, you f yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm not switching sides and I I'm still definitely a cat lover, but I do agree that them sticking their bottoms in their faces um is is not their best trait. Okie dokie.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

And when they knock your Amarillo on the floor at two o'clock in the morning and you've got to be up at six, it's really annoying.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Yeah, waking up at night is another thing they do. Yes, we definitely did have to keep the the door shut. So, alright, okay. Joe, thank you so, so much for coming and spending some time with us today. I want ADHD Wise to be a podcast where people can just kind of like listen and feel like we are talking about their stuff. The target market is neurodivergent people or neurodivergent the parents of neurodivergent children, probably both, and the professionals that support them, and maybe sort of like people who are supporting their partners and that sort of stuff. So um, I really appreciate you coming on today, sharing your perspective, and um thank you everybody for listening and um see you next time. Thanks. Thank you for listening to ADHDwise podcast. ADHD Wise exists to help bridge understanding and support for people exploring ADHD in broader neurodiversity. If you would like to know more about us and our services, please visit www.adhdwise.uk. Follow ADHDwise UK on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn. Take care and we'll see you next time.