A Harvard Psychiatrist & Zen Priest on Why Relationships Are More Powerful Than Any Longevity Hack

What if one of the strongest predictors of a longer, healthier life isn't hiding in your bloodwork, but in the quality of your relationships? After following 724 people for 87 years, the world's longest-running study of adult development uncovered a finding that continues to reshape how we think about longevity.

Description

Robert Waldinger, MD—Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, Director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, Director of the Center for Psychodynamic Therapy and Research at Massachusetts General Hospital, and an ordained Zen priest—joins host Chris Wharton on The LIVING Room Podcast to explore what 87 years of research reveals about happiness, health, and living a longer, more meaningful life.

Together, they unpack the study's two defining discoveries: why taking care of your physical health remains essential, and why the quality of your relationships may be just as important to healthy aging. Dr. Waldinger explains how chronic loneliness influences stress, cortisol, inflammation, and disease; why men from disadvantaged backgrounds lived an average of 10 years fewer than Harvard graduates yet reported similar levels of happiness; why wealth beyond meeting your basic needs has surprisingly little impact on long-term happiness; and how nearly 40% of our happiness is shaped by choices and habits that remain within our control. The conversation also explores meditation, worry, optimism, generosity, and practical ways to build deeper relationships in an increasingly disconnected world.

Robert Waldinger is Director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, the world's longest longitudinal study of adult life, following 724 original participants since 1938 with an extraordinary retention rate. He is a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, Director of the Center for Psychodynamic Therapy and Research at Massachusetts General Hospital, co-author of The Good Life, and an ordained Zen priest. His TED Talk on the Harvard Study has been viewed more than 40 million times, making it one of the most-watched TED Talks ever, and his work has been featured by leading publications including The New York Times.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The finding that we didn't believe at first, it was that the people who lived the longest and stayed the healthiest had the warmest relationships with other people. They were the most socially connected. We didn't believe that because we thought, how could your relationships actually get inside your body and change your physiology? How could that be a thing? The myth that we are sold that wealth will get you happy, right? And that is such a falsehood. Loneliness is a stressor. Isolation is a stressor. And so what happens is there's a low level of chronic inflammation, a low level of cortisol in the bloodstream that shouldn't be there. So those can gradually break down. The immune system, the coronary arteries, the joints. And that's how you can get accelerated diseases of aging in multiple systems through one single cause like loneliness, social isolation.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

This is why I'm always banging on and on about optimizing for physical function and nutrient density and recovery in sleep because I do think they have just tremendous impact on brain chemistry.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

We know that exercise is one of the great mood elevators. It's like the best antidepressant on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I haven't looked at that data recently, but I do know that people who have a positive outlook generally live a longer, healthier life. How much of this is genetic?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Sonia Lubomirsky is a psychologist who's done some good research on this, and she estimates that about 50% of our happiness levels are genetically based. About 10% of our happiness levels today are based on our current life circumstances. Not very much, right? And then about 40% is malleable. We can change our levels of happiness.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

What actually makes for a good life? Now the findings of the study are beautifully simple. And in this age where we're more digitally connected than ever, yet often feel more disconnected from real life than before. I think this conversation couldn't be more relevant. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Bob Waldinger. Welcome. Thank you. Um, Bob, you are, and correct me if I'm butchering the nomenclature here, a psychiatrist, a psychoanalyst, and an ordained Zen priest. Yes. That's an odd mix.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

It's a very odd mix.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

How did that end up happening?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I don't think that that combination exists in the world except for me and maybe one or two other people. I think I'm a strange unicorn.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

What order in which explain to me how that ended up happening? What was the order in which that occurred?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Okay. The first that occurred was psychiatrist. So I went to medical school. I realized that I was super interested in psychiatry. That was the most fascinating part of medicine for me. So I did a residency in psychiatry. And then I realized that I loved talking in-depth with people about their lives. And at that point, the way to get in-depth training in how to do serious exploratory psychotherapy was to do psychoanalytic training. So I did that. Well, I'd have to get training in research methods and then gather groups of people and study it on a larger scale. And so I went back and got trained to do that.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

And then But but sorry, so so that's psychoanalytics.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Well, that's psychoanalytic training and then research training, which are separate.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

So there's a fourth pillar.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah, it's a fourth pillar.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

And then I started practicing Zen and I got completely hooked. I thought I was just looking for meditation to relax me. And it was like so much more. It wasn't about relaxation at all. It was about a really deep dive into who am I and what's my place in the universe and all of that. How long ago was that? Twenty years ago. Wow. I I wandered into a meditation group five minutes from my house and wasn't looking for Zen in particular. And was suddenly captured by this whole way of looking at everything that was so radical and so helpful to me that I just kept wanting to do more, going on retreats, meditating every day. Um my wife was a little worried that I'd been sucked into a cult. And then she met all the people I was meditating with and she realized, oh, they're lovely people. No, it isn't a cult. Does she practice Zen? She does not. She's not interested in meditation at all, but she really supports me doing it. That's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to get into that. We're going to get into the meditation and zen and and mindfulness. We have in many uh on many occasions in the past. And so I want to unpack some of that with you. Um, but why don't we start with the the the research? Yeah. You know, it is widely known. I mean, I I would say the adult development study at Harvard, the the long study, I mean what, 80 years now? 87. Is 87 years.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah, it started in 1938.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

That must be the longest study on human happiness, would you say?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

It's the longest study of the same people, following them their whole lives. So from their teenage years all the way into old age. Um, and and the reason why it's the longest is because most long studies fall apart. They have to stop because too many people drop out. Yeah. And we were lucky, and my predecessors were just dogged. And we've only had 22% of our people drop out over 87 years. That's unheard of. Usually half the people drop out in the first five to 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

So that's a crazy retention rate. Yeah, it is. Let's begin by maybe explaining the the foundation of that study because it's been so insightful for so many other researchers who are studying this concept of, you know, living a good life.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

So maybe, maybe let's start there. How did it come about? What's the what is the adult development study?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Okay. It came about as two separate studies that didn't even know about each other. They were started at Harvard, each one, by coincidence, in 1938. One was a study of Harvard College undergraduate students, sophomores who were 19 years old. Their deans nominated them to be in this study as fine upstanding young men. And um it was meant to be a study of normal development from adolescence to young adulthood. So, of course, if you want to study normal development, you study all white men from Harvard. Like, no, but at that point, that's what they did. Yeah. And then the the other study was started at Harvard Law School. And it was started as a study of juvenile delinquency. And the question was: how do kids who were born into really deprived environments and really troubled families? How do some of those children stay on good developmental paths, stay out of trouble and grow up well? So ironically, they were both the Harvard study and the inner city study were both studies of what goes right in development. And that was rare because normally we study what goes wrong so that we can fix things, right? We study disorders, we study problems. So this was a study of what goes well.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Both of them were studies of what goes well, but they had no idea about one another.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

No, no. And then my predecessor, so I'm the fourth director of this study. My predecessor, George Valiant, said, let's study these groups together. They're so different. And yet we've followed them both groups through their whole lives. This will be an amazing way to compare privilege and lack of privilege. And he was absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I'm assuming none of the original participants are still alive.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

A few are still alive. So there were 724 original participants. About 10 are still alive. All are over age 100. Yeah. But their kids are people we've studied. They're all baby boomers. Like 1,300 of them. And so they're very much alive, most of them, and and we're still in touch with them. Are you studying their kids' kids? We are not. Oh, yeah. Because, well, if you if you notice in your own family, generations spread out in age. Yeah. So I have cousins who are like 20 years older than I am, right? And so what we found in the third generation was that the youngest person in the third generation hasn't gone to preschool yet. And the oldest person is in their 50s.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

So how do you do a generational study? What questions do you ask of a preschooler and a 50-year-old that are kind of going to be relevant to both? So we decided this is probably our time to let other studies carry the ball further down the field.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Are there other such studies equivalents?

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yes, there are. And in fact, the UK does a really good job of this. There are longitudinal studies in the UK that are good. Also, um, New Zealand has a study, the Dun Eden study, which is really good. Um and so there are other studies. No, none of these studies are the same because they're different directors, they ask different questions, use different measures, but they are often pointing in the same direction. So many other studies have found things that are similar to what we have found. And actually that gives us a lot more confidence in our research findings.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Let's talk about some of those things.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Um, your book is called the which is specific deep dive into the study itself and many of the outcomes. It's called The Good Life.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

How do we live the good life, Bob? And let's let's talk first about what you found over that remarkable study. Like I mean, it's there's one of a kind.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah. I mean, we've we've published hundreds of papers, but I could really boil it down to two major findings. One isn't going to surprise you at all. In fact, at Wonder Health, it's it's exactly what you are doing, which is the finding that if we take care of our bodies, if we take care of our physical health, makes a huge difference, not just in how long we live, but in the number of years of healthy living we have, disability-free life years, they call it in my field. So it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Wait, what do they call it? Disability.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Disability-free life years.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

It's a mouthful. Why don't they call it healthy lifespan?

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Healthy lifespan. That's good. Yeah. But we need to, we need to make it sound more technical to be sure. Because we're scientists, right? And so um so true. It's so true. So so they so they found that. But that wasn't even a surprise when our findings were coming out because so many studies kept finding, you know, that it was about adequate sleep and adequate health care and exercise and diet and um not smoking, not misusing drugs or alcohol, all that stuff. Yeah. Um, but the finding that we didn't believe at first was the other major finding. It was that the people who lived the longest and stayed the healthiest had the warmest relationships with other people. They were the most socially connected. We didn't believe that because we thought, uh, you know, yeah, we know the mind and the body are connected, but how how could your relationships actually get inside your body and change your physiology? How could that be a thing? And then other studies began to find it too. And that's when we began to say, okay, this is real. It's not just a fluke in our sample that it's real. And of course, now it's been corroborated over and over again. And what we've done is tried to look into how this works. So, you know, when you do research, you don't want to just see, okay, A is correlated with B. You want to know, well, how does that happen? What's the mechanism by which um relationships change our physiology? So we've been studying that in our lab, and many other labs have been studying it. In fact, you have a whole stress biomarkers group of advisors that talks about their work in this area.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. Do we know that relationships change our physiology, or does our physiology change our relationships, or is it both?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Well, that's key. Yes, it's both. You are asking exactly the right question because, you know, when you follow people along their lives, it's very difficult to prove causation. Like which comes first, the chicken or the egg, which comes first, the good health or the good relationships. We can do some of that, but what we know, for example, is that if your health is not good, you don't feel like connecting with people as much.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Or sometimes you can't because you're not mobile. There are many reasons why poor health makes it harder to connect with other people. So we know that it works in that direction, but we also know that it works in the direction I'm talking about, where good relationships keep us healthier.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

How, but how do we know? So, so so I think it makes perfect sense that, you know, a great example is if you were senior um individuals that trip and fall, break a bone, find it, I mean, find it very difficult to then recover, you know, there's shocking statistics. You know, um over the age of 65, I think, you know, you trip and break a femur or a hip, like a big percentage of those, I think about half, don't are not alive in 12 months. Yeah. Right. And like I need to fact check that that exact stat, but it's a frightening amount of of people find that don't actually make it out of hospital. And then I think the those that do at times will suffer this really tremendously quick physical decline through sarcopenia and lean tissue loss and loss of mobility, yeah. And then they become isolated. Right. Right. And I think that is catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Um, and so you can understand why when someone loses uh physical capacity that they lose the opportunity to build relationships, sadly. Yeah. Um, but how then the other way around, I guess, I guess great relationships encourage physicality as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

So well, they do. And you know, the mechanism we think biologically has to do with stress, that that relationships help us manage stress. So stress happens to all of us, yeah, you know, all day long. I mean, an hour from now, something really stressful might happen to me. And, you know, my heart rate will go up and my cortisol level will go up and all those physical changes, right? The fight or flight response. And then, as we know, the body is meant to go back to baseline, to a baseline equilibrium once the threat is over or the upsetting thing has passed, right? What we think happens when people are isolated or lonely, which is the opposite of social connection. If you're isolated, lonely, that you never quite go back to baseline, that loneliness is a stressor. Isolation is a stressor. We know that. And so what happens is there's a low level of chronic inflammation, a low level of cortisol in the bloodstream that shouldn't be there, that um that gradually breaks down body systems. So those can gradually break down the immune system, the coronary arteries, the joints. And that's how you can get accelerated diseases of aging in multiple systems through one single cause like loneliness, social isolation. You know, and on the other side, being socially connected with people, you know, if I have something upsetting happen, I can talk to my wife, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

I could talk to you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Problem shared, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah. You know, and and problem shared is so hugely impactful. And you can, you know, you probably remember when you when you can talk to somebody who's a good listener and you could really complain about your upsetting day, you can feel your body start to calm down. Yeah. And we think that's the mechanism by which all this works.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Huh. Did that was that the case across those these sort of two very broad socioeconomic groups?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

No difference.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Well, what were the differences? That's a good question. So the inner city guys died on average 10 years earlier than the Harvard guys.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Now they did have more stressful lives, many of them. So that's part of it. Part of it is that we think that the more educated Harvard guys got the messages sooner about taking care of your health. Yeah. Which began to come out in the 70s, 80s, you know, about not smoking. And um. And so we think that those differences in privilege, in stress levels, and in education probably access to health care as well. Access to health care, yeah. Almost certainly. So, but so the the Harvard, the inner city men died ten years earlier, but they were no less happy on average in their lives than the Harvard guys. And that's really important because their level of happiness did not regardless of income. Regardless of income. That you can be rich and very miserable and you can be not rich, even poor and pretty content. Not that I mean wealth matters in that well, having your basic material needs matters. We know that. Like you're happier if you have a basic income, if you have a roof over your head, all that. But that to go from, you know, maybe a hundred thousand a year to a hundred million a year in income doesn't move the needle very much. And it's certainly not a route to happiness. If you're not happy, you know, at a lower level of income, you know, chances are you're not going to be happier at a higher level. Wealth doesn't make you happy. Um getting your needs met, right? That makes us happy, right? But then beyond that, the the yacht, the extra house doesn't really contribute to happiness that substantially compared with, for example, a warm marriage, right? A good relationship.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

So much more important than that private jet.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. And I think one important thing to understand is this concept of hedonic adaptation.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Right. I think probably we've probably all experienced that, right? You just adjust to the lifestyle that you lead. Exactly. So you get the new car or the house, or you know, I can imagine the yacht or the private jet. And then then what?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, exactly. And actually, one one of the things that happens many times when people come into money, they will start by spending money on the things that they've always longed to have. And then often they realize that doesn't quite do it for me. I mean, it could be nice to, you know, to have that extra home, but that it doesn't really bring what they hoped it would bring. Um, they've actually done research on this. So they've they've studied how we spend our discretionary income. And the question the researchers asked was, are we happier if we pay for material things or if we pay for experiences? And as you can guess, the best things in life aren't things that it turns out we're happier and we stay happier longer if we pay for experiences.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

The best things in life aren't things.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I would say though, and I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here. Go ahead. That it's kind of easy for people to say when, you know, they have all their needs met and more. And I I know this is a real thing, right? Like if we can't afford to pay our rent, then of course. Like we're going to be happier when we can pay our rent.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And like the I guess the trouble is that feels like for young people, especially that that's getting harder and harder to meet your needs. You're right. W relative to the work you have to do, right? And the inflation and the cost of living and so on. Yeah. And so, you know, I think there was there was a it used to be like I think it was like $75,000 was the number that was put on that. There's just no world in which that is enough.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

No.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

You know, for for someone to, you know, I the way I like to think about this is if you can meet your needs and a bit more, right? Like I think everyone wants to be able to take their wife on a date a couple of times a month and go on a couple of holidays a year and you know, be able to afford vet bills and have an emergency fund and you know, and not have to be constantly thinking about income. Totally. Um, so I suspect that number is a lot higher than the research suggests. Yes. And actually, I I think this, I think it's there's is it the Easter Limb paradox? Is there's a name for that number, or beyond that, there's no linear improvement in happiness.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

But I do think that's difficult to study, right? Like how, you know, how would would a researcher go about studying that?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Well, you can actually look at levels of income and look at levels of happiness, and you can look at change in income and how it affects happiness. And they've done some of that. And so, you know, I think that really the point we're trying to make is that getting your basic needs met is a key to happiness. Yeah. But that the myth that we are sold, yeah, that wealth will get you happy. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

That that's the myth that we want to call out and name. Sure. That that because many young people, of course, they want to be able to have a place they can live and they want to be able to have enough to go on holiday, all that. But that many people are sold the myth that if you become a billionaire, that's when you will be happy. And that is such a falsehood that can and people can direct their whole lives to that.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

I mean, I've I some patients come to me for therapy and they're unhappy. And I'll say, young people, and I'll say, well, what, you know, what are you hoping to do with your life? And and some people will say, I want to become a billionaire. And my first question will be, okay, and what will the money be for? What will you do with it? Most of them are deer in the headlights. They they have no clue. They just have the sense that if I become a billionaire, that's when everything will be good for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Oh, so that the concept of being a billionaire or what to spend it on.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

It's the concept. And this is so much more common than any of us would imagine. Like they do surveys where huge percentages of young people believe this.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

I mean, I guess you could argue that if they it those people could help a lot more people. Yeah, you could. That does make that does make us happier. It does make us happier. If we got good science on that, that sort of selfish, selflessness, giving, the the act of giving.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

We've discussed this in depth in the past. And you know, I think everyone would feel this uptick in happiness or mood, however we define that, yeah, from helping other people.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Is that hu is that part of human nature, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Well, I'm gonna go to my Zen now. The the Buddha is famously quoted as saying if people understood how good it feels to give to others, they would never let a meal go by without sharing it. You know, because what what we find when we do practice generosity is that it actually feels so good that you want to do more of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I but I guess that is kind of the paradoxical nature of wanting to earn more or get more. Because because if there is a this mindset of scarcity, yeah, which you know, rightly or wrongly we all have at times, you probably don't feel like you have enough to give. And maybe, maybe I'm just pinning that all to finance like economic giving, and there's there's other ways to give.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

But well, but there are, as you know, there are multimillionaires and billionaires who give nothing to charity, perhaps out of belief, out of a personal conviction, but often because they don't feel like they have enough. You know, I also know from my work as a psychotherapist that how we experience money is often not based on our bank balance, right? Like whether we feel like we have enough or whether we are anxious about money all the time often depends more on our sense of security about life in general, how our families handled money when we were growing up, many, many things that don't have to do with how much money we actually have in the bank.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah. We we've had this discussion for many hours over the last few months, I think, yeah, about about this concept of happiness and you know being content. And I think there are a myriad, there are myriad ways to define that, right? And I think um, but it's something that we all that that I would say is the one common goal that we all have. Would you say that is true? Like everyone wants to feel happier. Absolutely. And so like that feels like something that we're all aiming for. One way or another, that's the reason we're working harder or or we have a passion or or or project that we're working on, or an ambition or motivation or desire to do more, is that the ultimate outcome is we want to feel happier, right? Or we want to have help other people feel happier. One of those two. Yeah. Are we meant to be happy all the time? I don't know if that's even possible. We can't. It's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I mean, think about your own life. I'm not happy all the time. No way. I mean, some mornings I wake up grumpy, something will happen that really annoys me. I'm not happy all the time. Um, and I'm a Zen teacher, right? You know, um and people often say to me, Well, you must be happy all the time. And I say, No way, that that's not human life for anybody. Anybody. So it's not that. And that we uh that's another myth that we sell each other that if you just do all the right things, you can be happy all the time. No, and that's okay. Uh, you know, there is there's unhappiness, there's suffering in everybody's life.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

One thing that you taught me um was about how to sort of sit with that unhappiness sometimes, and and you know, like those those moments of suffering and and you know um uh what's the word I'm looking for? Anodenia. Anhedonia. Anadonia. Those anodonic feelings. Is that a real word? Anodonic? It is. Yeah. How to sit with that. Can you maybe for the listeners give a sort of high-level perspective on I think you we used an analogy with clouds. I see.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a there's a a Zen teacher who talks about um the idea that the blue sky is always there. Sometimes it's covered by clouds. Don't worry about the clouds. The blue sky's always there. And what he's trying to point to is the idea that things happen and and moods happen to us and and we're gonna be grumpy. But there's a basic okayness that's there, that's always there about our life. And then sometimes we feel it because the weather's great and we're feeling good, and it's like life is good. But even when we're feeling bad, that basic okayness is still there.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

And so you and so just sit with that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah. Also, you know, when we're feeling grumbling, like one of the things I've been taught and is really helpful, is to just be curious about the feeling. Like if I'm sitting here feeling irritable, like I can ask myself, okay, where do I feel it? Where do I feel it in my head? Do I feel it in my chest? What what is it like? And is it getting stronger? Is it getting weaker? And and does it shift? And when I get interested in in the feeling itself and the bodily sensations of the feeling, eventually the feeling's just kind of gone. And what you realize is that feelings don't stay. They feel permanent, but they don't stay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

So hard though. It's so hard. Oh it's so hard. Sometimes I'll even kind of half enjoy being grumpy. Yeah. Maybe I think as I've got a bit older. And and I'm not searching those feelings out, but like things will I'll find myself being a little more reactive to things for no real reason. Yeah. And I think there's a bit there's some personality traits I would say that I have, and I I've noticed in other people who are uh, you know, always on, like very busy, like always driven by doing something that they sometimes search those feelings out. Would you say that's true?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah, because sometimes irritability can feel like energy, and it is energy of a certain kind, right? And so sometimes if you feel irritable, you you're at least you're not bored, right? And you could feel energized.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

And so some people do seek and maybe that's it, like just avoiding boredom. Yeah. Hard to be bored now. Like it's not hard to become bored, but it's hard feeling bored because we're just always on. Yeah. And like I and we again, we've spoken about this where you know, I mentioned in the past that I find it really difficult to put a phone down or to not be doing something or not, you know, um feel like I'm making some kind of progress at work or in or socially or doing something. How like sitting with that stillness I find really, really challenging, more challenging than ever before.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

And I and I imagine a lot of people feel that way with this, yeah, you know, given how much access we have to these this technology now. And it's it's engineered to be addictive.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Absolutely. Absolutely. One of one of the things, though, that meditation does is it trains you to focus in on the ordinary and get really interested in it. So let's say this glass. So what if I spend five minutes looking at this glass and feeling this glass and feeling and watching how the water, you know, jiggles in it and how the light reflects and all the different ways. Like suddenly a glass can become super interesting, a glass of water that mostly we just ignore, right? And boy, if you look at a flower, oh my gosh, or if you watch a bee in a flower, it's like amazing. And so what meditation can do is train you, first of all, never to be bored, because there's always something to pay attention to, even the boredom.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Um, and be curious about well, what is what does boredom actually feel like? And what is my mind doing? And you know, and so one of the greatest gifts for me about meditation is that it teaches me to appreciate the ordinary and find what's amazingly cool in it. Yeah, I'm jealous of that.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

I think, again, I hope that that there's a lot of people listening that um will have tried meditation at some point, right? We're all I I don't think there is, I think we're all uh of the opinion that if I could be good at this, it would be helpful. I don't I don't think it's that we don't believe that it works. It's just that it's really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Right. And the problem is how we approach it. Right. So we approach it, and I do this too. I certainly did this when I started, with the idea that, well, if I'm good at meditating, my mind will quiet down. I won't have thoughts or I'll have many fewer thoughts. That is not the object. The object of meditation is to be present for whatever is happening, including wild mind, right? So the first time I sat down to meditate, my mind just exploded. Well, actually, it wasn't true. My mind didn't suddenly explode. It's that my mind is always doing that. Yeah. I had what we call monkey mind. So many people come to meditation feeling like if I'm good at it, my mind will be quiet. I'll feel peaceful. When truly, if you're good at it, all you do is you're present for anything that happens to be there: irritability, wild thoughts, knee pain, anything. That's all. So you can't you can't do it badly. That's that's the whole meditation. It's simply being present for whatever is there, including distractability.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

But what how is that any different to just being like to just not meditating? Okay, because the the exercise is to keep coming back to the present.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

So I'll sit here, I'll start to meditate, and my mind will carry me off and I'll think about what I'm gonna have for dinner and right.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

And then eventually I'll remember, oh, wait, I'm supposed to be meditating, and then I'll remember and I'll come back to the present. And it's that exercise of just bringing yourself back to the present moment again and again that is the practice. And each moment that you do that, each time you remember, oh, I'm I'm meditating and I'm gonna come back to my breath, for example, is a moment of waking up to the present. And that's it. That's the whole practice.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Isn't it ironic that we are spending so much of our time and energy and money trying to extend life span and health span when we do such a terrible job of living in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Absolutely, absolutely. And we lose most of the present moment, which is really the only thing we have. But we're most of the time our minds are lost in the future or thinking about the past.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah. Bob, can I ask you a question about worrying? Yeah, worry in general. It feels like um, again, part of the human condition. I think we all worry to some degree, but often we're worrying about things that either haven't ever happened and will never happen, yeah, or things that have already happened. Or I guess a third category is things that are out of our control and are no there's no point worrying about anyway.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

How do we stop doing all of those, please?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Well, we don't stop, right? You can't just tell yourself to stop worrying. What you can do is notice it sooner.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Like, oh, I'm worrying about this thing. And then the teaching in Zen is if I can do something about it, then I will get up and do something about it. And so I don't need to worry. I just need to take the action that that would work in this moment. If there's nothing I can do about it, then worry is useless. And I may as well rest in the acceptance of a situation that that's uncertain, that I don't know how it will come out. Um, that either way, the goal is to step back from worry and to say, either I can do something about it, or I can do my best to let it go. And that's just doing your best, right? It doesn't mean you can automatically let it go. It just means every time you start to worry about it, you step back and say, Well, okay, it's gonna be what it is. I mean, I'm really worried about my country right now and what's happening here. Yeah. And so I have to pull myself back and say, I can't know what's gonna happen. And so I I can, and that's uh turns out to be really helpful to me because otherwise I would go down a rabbit hole all day, every day. A rabbit hole of worry and despair.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

And so this practice really helps me.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Is that something that you've got better at over time? Is that a skill that you've developed? Yes. And is that through meditation?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

It is, it's a skill, and and also this just this perspective shift. Like this will happen to me walking along the street, you know. Um, and it's really allowed me to rest in what we call in Zen not knowing. Right. Like, which is really hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

To say, I just don't know. And I'm not gonna know until it happens. And so I'm just gonna go on, put one foot in front of the other, try to be as present as I can for what's here now.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Um some people are so brilliant at that. Maybe natural, maybe that they're just naturals at like letting go of worries, living carefree, very optimistic, glass half full. How much of this is genetic? Strikes me that you know, there are some people that are just born that way. Absolutely. I mean, um, you know Winnie the Pooh, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Not personally, but yeah. Okay. But there was Tigger, who was bouncy all the time, no matter what was happening, and there was Eeyore, who was this depressed donkey. Yeah. And and there are, we know that genetically we're born with a certain temperament, and some of us are Eeyores, and some of us are Tiggers, and most of us are something in between.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

And they've uh Sonia Lubomirsky is a psychologist who's done some good research on this, and she finds that about 50% of our happiness levels are genetically based. About 10% of our happiness levels today are based on our current life circumstances. Not very much, right? And then about 40% are is malleable. We can change our levels of happiness, and you can either think of that as a lot or a little that's changeable. But it seems really important to note that you know, some people are just gonna be more gloomy about life. That is just their perspective.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Uh but that 40%. So for those people that, you know, are have been dealt a tough card with that genetic element of their happiness, 40% is still a big chunk, right? And so, you know, this is why I I'm always just banging on and on about optimizing for physical function, yeah, and and nutrient density and recovery and sleep, because I do think they have just tremendous impact on brain chemistry. And I would argue that you know, so uh such a a big product of that is the way we interact with the world, our mood, our energy levels, our levels of optimism. Is that accounting for most of that 40% and social connection included?

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yes. Um, yes. And so, for example, we know that exercise is one of the great mood elevators. It's like, you know, it's like the best antidepressant on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Literally.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

And um, and we know that it's possible to change our moods based on, you know, what we do, our activity, what we eat, how sleep, all the things you named. One of the ways I learned about this was on it on Zen retreats. Because what happens on Zen retreats is you're meditating from early morning till late at night. And early morning, you have energy. Like I'm bright and my thoughts are more optimistic. And like late afternoon and early evening, I would find myself having all these gloomy thoughts. And I was wondering why. You know, it wasn't like my life had changed. I'd just been meditating all day long, nothing had changed. But I realized that as my physical energy decreases, my mind starts reaching for gloomier thoughts. And that it really showed me that my levels of tiredness, my uh, you know, my energy level makes a huge difference in the content of my thinking.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah. And so true.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

That that exercise does the same thing. If I if I get out and I and I exercise, my mood will be boosted and I'll start thinking more optimistic thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yep. Yep. Almost every time, right? I think I I actually notice it more on the days that I don't exercise, that I'm thinking slightly more negatively than I do when I do. I mean, I'm exercising with with a pretty frequent regularity. I'm pretty disciplined on that front, albeit short sessions. So that that is a great way to stabilize my mood. And I I think it the same applies for everyone, right? I think it absolutely, you know, we know how to how that um impacts our brain chemistry, and I think that is so powerful. Yep. You know, but one thing that's been really interesting for me so far with these podcasts, and actually kind of surprising, is that you know, I ask every one of the scientists during every episode, you know, what is the most underrated longevity hack? You know, what is the the number one that we are um you know not optimizing for where we should? And and every one of them has said, or nearly every one of them has said joy or social connection or happiness.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

And so I found that really fascinating because it feels to me like certainly with social connection, and and I I guess that the study proves this, right? Is that that is not something that is reserved only for the rich or the accessible and you know the wealthy can get that and the and the rest of us can't. Um and at times actually it it can be the reverse, right? I mean, yeah. We work personally with a number of individuals that are in, you know, find that on occasion quite difficult. We've talked in the past about, you know, um founders, CEOs, people in the public spotlight. It's kind of lonely sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Half of CEOs are lonely, according to a great big survey.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so if that is the thing that the world's leading scientists on living a healthier, longer life are saying is the most underrated. Yeah. Um, and there is no sort of socioeconomic barrier to that. Right. Well, relatively. Right. What would be the like really practical tips for people that are listening to actually go and achieve that?

SPEAKER_01 44:24

One is how do I stay in touch with the people who are already in my life? How do I strengthen those connections? And then the other question is, how do I bring more people into my life if I feel like I'm too isolated? I don't have enough people. So the first, how do I strengthen the connections I already have? Is really, and we learned this from our best, our most socially connected people in our study, was that those are the people who were just constantly staying in touch. So they were constantly, at that time they didn't have texting, but they were constantly calling people on the phone. They were making sure that they made a date to have coffee, or they had a regular poker night, or they, you know, whatever it might be. And so, so these were the people who stayed in touch day after day after day with the people that they wanted to keep current with in their lives. That most of us think, oh, my relationships are fine, my friendships are fine, my family's fine. I I don't have to do much. That'll take care of itself. Turns out that's not true. And that the people who were the best at this were much more active in staying in touch, making plans. Okay, so that's what I would recommend to listeners. Like, think about how could I, you know, maybe, maybe on your commute, you just decide you're gonna text somebody every day. You know, just one small thing, take you two minutes.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Um, you mean sort of like schedule it, make it intentional. Yeah, make it intentional.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Make it intentional. Or, you know, for example, I have three phone calls every week with people who I want to be in touch with. We talk every week, and because they don't live in the same city, and I want them to be in my life and I want to be in theirs. So it's in our calendars. Like we have to cancel. One of us has to go out of our way to cancel if we're not gonna talk on Fridays at 10 a.m., right? And that means you're gonna do it by default. So make it automatic if there's like a best friend who you say, look, I don't want us to fall out of touch.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

You know, do that.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

It's so true because if you, if you get just out of the blue a message from someone you haven't heard of from a long time who you because I don't think I think a lot of the time we we intend to do it, but life just gets so busy and you know, throws spanners in the works. Absolutely. Every now and then you'll get a message from someone who you, you know, and we go through these chapters in life where we spend a lot of time with different people. Doesn't mean that we no longer love them or no longer want to spend time with them. It's just, you know, the cyclical nature of social connection. And I think when you get those messages, it's actually like puts a big smile on your face.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Absolutely. Absolutely. So then the other side, so the other side is what how could I bring more people into my life if I feel too isolated? And it's sort of like, and they've done research on this too, that the easiest way to make friends is by doing what our parents would tell us to do when we went to a new school, right? They'd say, join clubs.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

So join, do some activity that you care about that you really like that's meaningful to you, but do it with other people. Yeah. And because what happens then is if you go back to this activity again and again and you see the same people, you have something in common already, which is this interest. So there's a a conversation starter. And some most of those people won't become your friends, but a few of those people may become friends as you develop richer conversations.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Uh is that is there's evidence that the deeper the friendship, the more yield, the more value for our happiness? I mean, uh, that sounds kind of stupid to say out loud, but what I mean by that is is there value in these acute moments of connection? So if I go to a new club and you know, I I'm surrounded by people, and then we have these little micro moments where I'm meeting new people and sharing anecdotes and you know, um building connection, is there value in that? Or is it the is does the value come from truly knowing someone?

SPEAKER_01 48:33

It's both. That truly knowing someone has a kind of essential value. Like we know that everybody needs one or two people at least in their lives who they could call if they were really in trouble, who they know they can lean on, right? That's that deeper kind of friendship. But then what we know is that that the the friendly relationships, the the more superficial, if you will, relationships actually give us little hits of well-being. They help us remember that we belong and that you know we're part of the world. So um cultivating, you know, multiple relationships can be the right thing for many people. If you're an introvert, you don't need to do that. Introverts get stressed out by having a lot of people around. So for them, it's better to just have a few relationships. And that's not unhealthy. That's fine. Because actually, for an introvert, cocktail parties are hugely stressful, right? Yeah, yeah. So you want to tailor it to your own temperament.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

That's actually a really interesting thought. I never thought about it in that way, in that you know, you have these two polarizing personality types. Like I I really, and it's something I try and work on, I really dislike being on my own for any amount of time. Like I'd I'd I'd sooner be with another person every hour of the day. Yeah. Which which is something I think in is not is something that needs work, right? But there are people at the other end of that spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Well, what about for the people who are like right at the other end of that spectrum who who just don't like being around other people?

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Well, and that's okay if you're not in distress. I mean, there are many people who really like being on their own a lot, and that's fine. That's that's totally healthy. Um, what what we do think is that everybody needs one or two securely attached relationships where, you know, who could you call, you know, if you were in trouble. Yeah. But that beyond that, it's it's really personal preference and temperament. Um, so for you, being with people gives you energy, it makes you feel connected. And that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you might like the capacity to be alone and be comfortable. No. You don't want to acquire it.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Oh, oh, oh, I'm no, not really. I have no I'm not sure. So maybe you don't need to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Maybe you don't need to.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Yeah, I know, but sometimes you have to be on your own.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. Like I I, you know, I I have to, I have to, it's an effort.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Sometimes I've exhausted all of my contacts and no one's around.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

No one's around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or, you know, I'm in a a strange city and I need to go out to dinner all by myself. And, you know, it's okay. I just I don't love it, but I can I can do it.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Do you think there is value in, you know, trying to sharpen that sore, you know, spending time alone, you know, being in cities, like traveling and eating dinner alone or going to the movies alone. Is there value there, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 51:33

I don't know. You know, it depends.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

It feels like it could build some resilience.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Well, you could. I mean, it depends on what you need to do in your life. Some of us don't need that. Like we're not in positions where we have to be alone much of the time. Right. Some of us do need to be alone. And, you know, and I found like as I've been traveling more in recent years, I need to be okay being alone more because there's a lot of traveling that's being alone.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Um so I think it depends on what you need to cultivate. There's so many things we could work on, right? That that you probably want to see what it is that you need given what your life right now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Can we talk about um some of the carryovers from I think from social connection, but from like how do we cultivate more joy in general? Because um, and again, we've we've mentioned this already on the podcast, but the the scientists that we've already spoken to, you know, more joy, more happiness, more time with people. Yeah. And I think that is an a thread that we are beginning to speak about more in the media. Um, but to what end are we trying to live longer for if the time that we're alive is not full of joy, right? And full of um, you know, uh full of health, should I say? Yeah. How do we compress morbidity? Yeah. Because I think, I mean, we know this today. We are living a lot longer than we were 50, 100 years ago, a tremendous amount from 100 years ago. But the average amount of time spent in ill health with two or more co comorbidities now is like 16, 17 years. Really? It's 20%. Yeah. 20% of the average human lifespan. Wow. And so, you know, what good is it adding 16 years if they're spent in physical and cognitive decline?

SPEAKER_01 53:20

No, that is so important.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

And so obviously, we we have a a bunch of tools now to help slow down that process, compress morbidity. There are some tremendous developments going on with the detection and treatment of disease and illness. I I could not be more bullish about the future of compressing morbidity. But then the thing that concerns me is how do we fill that time with joy in a world where we are so bombarded with stress and distractions. Yeah. Um that that's I think something that we're going to have to, you know, yeah. This in real life human connection is not trending in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

No, it's not. It's not.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Especially with the advent of these AI tools.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah. Well, you know, one of the basic things we can do is tune into what brings us joy or brings us peace or satisfaction, right? Because one of the things that I think happens to all of us is we get conditioned from the time we're small to suppress the signals we get about what we like and what we want. You know, like I mean, how many times are we told to sit still? How many times are we told you have to wait until the bell rings to get out of class? You know, we're just we're told to sit on it, to not not to pay attention to all those impulses to run and jump and play and right. I got told of a lot for that. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

So one of the things that can happen is that we're we're we get so good at behaving, we get so good at meeting social expectations that we screen out the signals we get of, oh, I really like this. Or this really energizes me. And that doesn't, you know, and often it's not the stuff that other people value. It just happens to be what you care about. And so what I would say is one thing that we can keep getting better at is that skill of paying attention to the signals we get.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

We get because I get signals all the time. I get it about activities, I get it about people. Yeah. I get signals where I say, I really like that person, or I want to step away from that person. And to my peril, I ignore those signals, right? Like, you know, sometimes. And and I've ignored those signals about work. Now I've taken jobs that other people thought were prestigious. And then I realized I don't like this at all.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

And I might have known that in advance, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you probably did. I probably did. But everybody was saying, this is so great.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Sure. And you should be so honored. And right. That's so interesting because there's there like a societal expectation of what success looks like or happiness looks like. But you knew.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

And but I knew often. So what I would say is the thing, the skill we can get better and better at is just paying attention to those signals that our gut signals, energetic signals about.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

I've got one challenge to that.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

I've got two. Okay. One's not a challenge, but one challenge is what about when the things that bring us joy we know are detrimental to health? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

That's a really that's a really good that's a really good challenge.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

And I'll give you two examples. You know, sometimes, you know, the most enjoyable foods are not the foods that are best for our metabolic health or our body composition. Um I'm I love desserts. I'm just crazy about sweets. You got a sweet tooth, Emma. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

I could I could just eat dessert all day long.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

But but that's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

We use the example of our of our uh our we have a friend in common who says um you know his favourite food groups are crispy, crunchy, and fried.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Um and and actually he's one of the happiest people I know. Like I and and as it is in great shape as well. And he's quite healthy, really. Very healthy.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Um, so you know, can we carve out moments? I mean, I think I already know the answer here, but like should we be carving out moments to because I think so so much about eating those, like having those moments, eating those foods, if we do it in the right context, can bring so much joy and so much human connection as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Like it's not often that we're out eating dessert on our own.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

So maybe that is the maybe I've just said the solution out loud.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

And the other thing is that it it's the variety. Like, for example, I mean, I really couldn't eat dessert all day long. I imagined that I could, yeah, but I would get tired of it.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

And really it is the variation. So sometimes I will let myself indulge in a bacon cheeseburger because I really love bacon cheeseburgers. They're bad for me. Yeah. But if I have one every three or four months, it's a pleasure. Yeah. And it's not going to do that much to harm my health. Right. I think what you're pointing to is the problem that some things make us feel good in the moment and they really do drag us down. Uh alcohol can be one of those things. Yeah. Right. Um or various drugs, addictive drugs. I mean, one of the reasons people become addicted is they're trying to make themselves feel okay, yeah. Better. And so it really is a very tricky problem to figure out, okay, how do I pay attention to the signals of what brings me pleasure, what brings me joy, but not those signals that are short-term gain and long-term pain.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yeah. And I think there's also just like um if you go to any end of that spectrum to the extreme, both of the things that we know are good for, like exercise is a good example. You go, you, you exercise in an extreme fashion, or you know, tracking your biomarkers in an extreme fashion can equally be detrimental as the other end of that spectrum. So like there's moderation across these things. Like with um that thrill-seeking behavior specifically, we see this big deficit of dopamine, so you don't return to baseline. Yeah. And so you have this huge spike, and then you'll go back to below baseline, which is why you see this sort of cyclical nature of addictive behavior, or one of the reasons at least.

unknown 59:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

Okay, the second element of that question was what about when we have people in our lives? I think we've all got examples of this, who are adding to our social connection, but not in the right way. Yeah. You know, people that, you know, bring so much negativity or pessimism. Yeah. How do we get rid of them?

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Well, well, that's, you know, I mean, it turns out that that some relationships should be stepped away from, right? Yeah. You know, because we're stepping away from relationships all the time. I mean, how many of your grammar school mates are you still close buddies with? Lots, actually. Really? Yeah. Oh, good for you. Yeah. I'm not. I mean, most of the people I know are not. And and like, so how many of your uh, you know, high school mates or your, you know, I mean, this actually do you stay close to everybody who's ever been in your life? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

Um, no, no. Specifically for my friends from from school, yeah. This is such a great proof of concept for your uh sort of proof of principle for reaching out. We had a we had a we have a shared WhatsApp group or a group that we've had for maybe 15, 20 years. So like we've all been very close for 30 years. That's fantastic. Yeah. And so that I that is the primary reason why and we see each other every year. I I don't get to go as much now, obviously, but a lot of them are in the uh in the UK. But we still stay in in contact. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

But there must be relationships that that come and gone, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

That were well, I would say most of them come and go, right? And like exactly that I don't think that is is indicative of them being good or bad. I think sometimes it's just you know, life.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

Life, it's life, and we grow in different ways, and our lives take different paths, right? So, so in other words, we we do step away from relationships sometimes deliberately, but often just naturally. Yeah, you know, and so to say this person really saps my energy. And so, unless there's some important reason to stay involved, and there could be like a family relationship or whatever, but if there isn't, then it's okay to let that go. And in fact, what they find as people get older is they do more of that. Like when we get into our 50s, 60s, 70s, we let some of those relationships that feel more like obligations, we let them go. Right. And people get happier as a as a result.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

What about if it's someone that you know you've known for a long time, you really love, and they have got a bit older or they've they've become a bit more pessimistic, or life has thrown some really shit cards at them, and you know, they've let it get them down. Is there not a responsibility for you as a friend to help them out of that? And and and if so, like you know, like you still love them, still believe in them, you still want them around, but they are sapping your energy. Like, is there a is there a delicate way that you can approach that and maybe tell them?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Well, the difficulty is we can't just tell someone to cheer up. It doesn't help, right? So the question is Yeah, that's true. You know, you like and and and it is hard because sometimes people really do bring us down. I mean, I have people who bring me down and sorry. Um, well, no, not you, not you. I'm really enjoying this conversation. Um, but you know, I think sometimes we can't stay with everybody who who's like that. We just sort of let it go. Sometimes we can help people to be in situations where they might be more cheerful. I mean, we can facilitate that sometimes. Um it's highly variable, but it doesn't mean I can't save everybody, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Just as they can't save me. Um so there are, you know, there are some people who will really hang in there, but I can't hang in there for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Um tough to know, tough to know though, Bob. I mean, some yeah, because there are some people that do need saving.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Yeah, there are, but but mostly we can't save people. We can, you know, we can create the conditions and we can, you know, lead the horse to water, if you will. But um, you know, pe we know this about addiction. I mean, addiction is the classic example where you can't make someone stop.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

No, but my my pushback there would be they need some that they need people to believe in them and enough times, you know. Like I don't know many people who have been through that cycle who haven't needed to be pulled out.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

You know, because it's so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Exactly. You pull them out, you help them get back on their feet. Yeah, it's tough. They relapse because relapse is a natural part of this process.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

And you never know when eventually the getting sober is going to be the last time they need to get sober because they stay sober, you know? So it's not that we abandon people who are in trouble, but there are limits to what you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

I mean, you know, you gotta protect your own piece as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

I've had to advise parents when their opiate addicted child starts stealing from them that they have to change the locks.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

When their opiate addicted child takes the the title to the car and sells it, right? You know, um, that that there are these, there is tough love and there is limit setting. Yeah. And so all of this is so complicated, and we never do it right. We we can never get it right. Life's complicated. Life is very complicated. And I don't want, you know, as we're talking, and I'm giving my ideas, some of them research based. I don't want to give the impression that I've got all this figured out because I don't, and nobody does. We're all just trying to get it right over and over.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

You know, I think that's really nice to hear, actually, for for me, for the audience, maybe is that like, because I do think that there is just this crazy amount of pressure to optimize right now. And like, look, I don't want to speak myself out of a a career or a job. Like we that is, you know, we do we do very deep phenotypic diagnostics and we're looking at a lot of data data all day, every day. But the truth is, like, it's very easy to get bogged down in. In numbers and wearable data and you know, CGM monitors and these things, you know, your whole career is just a superb case study for why there is more to life than constantly measuring everything. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

And I and I say this on nearly every episode that we film that like it just feels really overwhelming right now on on podcasts and media, that there is just so much we need to be thinking about and tracking and optimizing for. And I do worry that um kind of sucks the fun out of life a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Well, it can. And and the problem is that, you know, life ends in decline and death, right? That's just the truth. Doctors have terrible trouble with this. You know, my profession is really bad at it because we often consider that when someone dies, it's our failure, when our patient dies. Right, yeah. When no, it's that there are lethal illnesses, everybody gets old, everybody dies, right? And so optimizing, there's no such thing as finally optimizing for health, because finally we're all gonna have no health, right? Yeah, and that's really important to keep in mind. Um, I'm at my Zen group, every week, one of our chants is I am of the nature to die. There is no room, there's no way to escape death. And that's and and some people run screaming from the Zen group saying, I don't want to hear that. And but other people say, My God, finally somebody's telling the truth, right? And so even as we say we want to try to live healthier longer, let's not pretend that you can optimize or you should optimize, and if you do everything right, you'll live forever and you'll never feel pain. Because it's just not true.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah. And it depends what your definition of optimize even means, right? Like, I do think there is so much that we can be doing to delay that onset of physical and cognitive decline. We know that that's not an argument. No. Um, but to what end I think is the real, you know, what do we want out of this? Yeah. Yeah. Very short period of joy.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

How do you think I'd like to have more discussions like this?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Okay. Hey, is there a question where you where you when you go on a podcast? Is there is there ever a question that you wish someone asked you?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Well, you've asked a couple of them. So I really like the question, can you be happy all the time? And I love getting to say no. Um that's probably the most important one. Um and one of the things we've talked about is is what I do like when people ask, which is how has it changed your life? So, so my research has changed the way I live my life because I'm trying to take my own medicine, right? Like if I say social connection matters, I've got to get better at doing that myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

And so I've actually been more intentional about making plans with friends and doing all those things. And so I think those are the things that I really want to be sure to touch on in this kind of conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Yeah. Well, what one belief do you have that your peers would disagree with?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

I think some of my peers would disagree that fame and wealth and high achievement can make you happy. Because I come from Harvard, where we're a whole bunch of overachievers. And many people believe that you can just achieve your way into happiness, but you can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

What is one thing that you used to believe that you now don't?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

I I used to believe that I would be happy if I achieved a lot. And now I don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

I mean, I am pretty happy, yeah, but it's because of these other things in my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Do you think you're happier because of those things, but even happier because of the success?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

I l the success is helpful. I like it. You know, I feel grateful for it. Um, but the other things are so essential. Like my relationships are really key, right? And and and doing things that I care about that have meaning to me. Like if I that I do. So, for example, my job is a job where I actually get to help people.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

Thank goodness. You know, I'm not making weapons of mass destruction.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

Um, and so I feel like these are more important than any particular achievement, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

One thing I've been marinating on throughout this conversation is that I wonder how much of this is an evolutionary trait to always be on the lookout for hardship, you know. And if we were to, you know, those people that have become more successful over time and are always thinking, I'm no real, I'm not really that much happier because of the success. If you were to then strip them of that success and put them back where they were, I would wager that they would then be a lot sadder. Maybe it could be. So is part of that, is part of that adaptation, that hedonic adaptation, an ever evolutionary trait because we've, you know, over millennia had to always be on the lookout for danger.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Yes, yes, I think that's right. Good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

Hey, what would you say the most underrated tool or strategy from your field is for living the good life?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Oh, relationships. No, but one specific strategy. One specific strategy. Um being curious about people.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

Interesting and interested. I think we were discussing this the other day. Yeah. That's a great approach to a conversation. Like be interested in people as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

Really, really ask questions about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Such a good tool. And people will love you for it, right? People love to be interested, you know, to to to feel your interest.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:51

And it will get you so many things, so many good things brought to your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

Everyone, I love this one. I think it might have been you that told me this, but maybe not. That everyone loves the sound of their own name, right? And like when you when you're in a conversation with someone, you meet them for the first time, and you you reiterate their name and you say it more than once. One, that is a great way for you to like embed that into your memory. But also, like it's really nice to hear that someone is interested in you. Yes. And I actually really like that as a tool. What would you say the most overrated thing that you hear about in the in the media for longevity is? An overrated hack.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Well, I think that you know, if I could give you a category instead of a thing. Yes. It's the category of unproven hacks, unproven supplements, unproven diets, unproven procedures, where you just have so-and-so is an influencer and he's got this great diet. Or he does 12 cold plunges a day. Yeah. Or, you know, and and everybody starts following that. I think that is the most overrated um and potentially harmful thing we do to ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

Yeah. Anything without like a robust evidence. Yes. Yeah. What's the one what's one thing that, you know, this is this study has been going on for decades, nearly nine decades. Yep. During your tenure, what's one thing that's really surprised you? One thing that you found, and you're like, huh. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

Yeah, I think it's how many different ways there are to live a good life, like to live a life that you feel satisfied by. Like I read about these lives, and I you literally you can read through somebody's whole life in our study, flip through pages and pages. And whatever some people are living lives that I would hate and they love, right? Lives where they're so satisfied and so happy, and I go, ooh, I would hate that. I mean, um, and and that gives me so much pleasure to see, right? That there are all these ways of being in a life that that are not what I would choose.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Yeah, don't let anyone else's path define your happiness, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Exactly. There's a there's a great, there's a Joseph Campbell quote. I've probably said this to you, but it's if the path before you is clear, you're probably on somebody else's path.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's path. Huh.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

I'll probably steal that and start using it. Do it as my own. I do that with you quite frequently. Bob, I think a lot of people who are listening will have, you know, parents of the age where, you know, they're moving into that category or are already firmly in that category, where at that they're really at risk of losing human connection, social connection. Yes, yes. You know, and I think so many, if I think about my peers and colleagues and the people we work with, I'm sure would love to spend more time with their parents, but for geographical reasons or for you know time constraints where they have a young family of their own, they can't do as much as they'd like. Is there any is there any advice that you could give to those people to help encourage more social connection for maybe parents or family members that are isolated?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Yeah. It's tough because often when we age, we have to make decisions about are we gonna, for example, stay in our homes, uh, maybe homes that make us feel safe, um, or are we gonna move to a setting where it's easier to get care, but it's also easier to socialize, like a community living situation for older people. Um and I think one of the things that middle-aged people, children, old adult children can do is just help their parents sort it out. We can't make those decisions for anybody else. So some people tear their hair out. My parents won't go to a community living situation. Well, then they don't. They don't want to. But to help parents then stay connected in other ways. So maybe we help them get the technology and learn to use simple technology to make those video calls, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

To be connected in ways, you know, really spend the time helping older people with the tools that they might feel needed.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:35

I love that. That that's a great strategy. Like help them set up because you can get these giant Zoom TV screens and with great big buttons. You can like remove the barriers to entry for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

And you can you can make the print big on your the font big on your phone and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:49

Make it easier for them to make that connection.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:52

They have technology specifically designed for older people. Yeah. And so it's worth checking that out and seeing. And and there are also people who specialize in helping older adults learn those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:04

Yeah. Invest in them, invest in removing the friction for them. Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:09

Yeah. Because I bet there's so many people who, you know, and quite rightly, people want their independence like at every age. Absolutely. So the idea of being like, you know, forced to go into a home, I think, is is kind of a frightening one for people.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Exactly, exactly. And you cannot make people do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

You know, okay. Do you have two more questions?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:28

If you knew everything that you knew right now, on the first day of your career, how would you approach it differently? Your own health. How would you approach your own health differently? Your health. Yep. Not your work. So you know everything you know now about this industry, this field.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

I think you know what I would have invested. So I've I've always exercised from the time I was in my 20s. But I think I would have invested more in flexibility, mobility, balance, as opposed to the, you know, the weight training, which is important and the aerobics are important. But those, those I saw, those were the shiny objects. Sure. I could see, but the more subtle things, you know, I'm one of the least fat flexible people on the planet, physically. And I really wish that I had spent more time on flexibility and mobility.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

I disagree that you're the least flexible. I think you, I think you're in great shape.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Well, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

You've been through you've also done some great improvements in the last six months.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:29

That's true. That's true. Thanks to you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

Yeah. Thank you. Okay. If people were to tune in right now to the last 60 seconds of this episode, what would be one takeaway action strategy tool that they could do right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

Right now? Um, think of somebody you want to be in touch with more often and you miss, and text them, email them, call them on the phone. Just do that, and you'll get a little hit of well-being because most of the time you will get something very positive back from that person.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

So pull out your phone if you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:06

Think of someone that you'd love to either reconnect with or you've been meaning to connect with, and then text them. Maybe share a podcast link. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

Bob, thank you so much. It has been a pleasure, a privilege, as always. And I I can't wait for episode two, chapter two for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

Because what happens always after these is that I will then go home and I'll think, shit, I should have asked all these questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:30

And I'll think of all the things I should have said. So we'll so we'll do it again. Yeah. Yeah. You're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:35

You're the best. Thanks, Bob.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:36

It's a pleasure.