Beyond Your Bubble: Dr. Tania Israel on Cognitive Bias, Political Division, and Workplace Civility

In this episode of the Civility Matters podcast, psychologist Dr. Tania Israel, author of Beyond Your Bubble and Facing the Fracture, joins the conversation to explore the psychology behind political division and how cognitive bias keeps us locked in an "us versus them" mindset — in society and in the workplace.

Dr. Israel breaks down how our brains are wired to create division, why cognitive biases are so difficult to overcome, and what we can do to bridge the gap across political and ideological differences. Whether you're navigating polarized conversations at work, in your community, or across the family dinner table, this episode offers practical strategies for building understanding and fostering civil discourse in an increasingly divided world.

What we covered:

• What cognitive bias is and why it plays a central role in political division
• How "us versus them" thinking shows up in society and workplace culture
• Why political polarization makes civil discourse and collaboration harder
• Practical strategies for breaking through cognitive bias and bridging divides
• How the insights in Beyond Your Bubble and Facing the Fracture can help you navigate division in everyday life
• What leaders and individuals can do to foster civility and understanding across differences

If you're struggling with political division, workplace conflict, or simply want to understand why we're so divided — and what to do about it — this conversation with Dr. Tania Israel is essential listening.

Here is more information about Dr. Israel: 

Tania Israel is a Professor Emeritus of Counseling Psychology at UC Santa Barbara and award-winning author of Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide and Facing the Fracture: How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation. She has received honors from Congress, the California State Legislature, and the American Psychological Association and has shared her expertise on bridging divides with the TODAY show, the New York Times, NPR, and dozens of other media outlets.
You can hear more from her on her podcast, Ready to Be Strong, and TEDx talks such as How to Win a Political Argument and What Halibut Fajitas Taught Me About Bridging the Political Divide.

Explore more of Tania’s books, TEDx Talks, and podcast at TaniaIsrael.com.

Below are direct links including links to some of the resources Tania mentioned during the live session, in case they are helpful to include. 

Tania's Podcast

TedX Talks: 

How to Win a Political Argument | Dr. Tania Israel | TEDxSanLuisObispo

What Halibut Fajitas Taught Me About Bridging the Political Divide | Tania Israel | TEDxUCSB

Tania's Books

Other resources:

AllSides.com

Join the Listen First Project

For more on my work on rudeness and incivility, you can find information at:

www.activatesuccess.org

www.rudenessrehab.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmobrienphd/

https://www.youtube.com/@RudenessRehab

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Welcome to Civility Matters, the podcast that seeks to answer the important question why you gotta be so rude? Welcome to the show. I'm your host, John O'Brien, author of the book Rudeness Rehab: Reclaiming Civility in the Workplace and Your Home Space. So I'm very excited to have you joining us today, and I'm very double, very excited to have the guest that I have for you today, who's going to help us navigate the current political divide that we are experiencing in our country. This is going to be a not-to-miss episode. But first, as I travel around the country and speak to groups about what I am describing as the pandemic of rudeness and incivility in our society, I often hear from people that they agree that that is happening and they're concerned about the rise of such uh levels of rudeness in our society. But they usually follow that up with asking, but John, is it really that bad? So this has motivated me to start off each episode with a few startling statistics for each month. And since this month's theme is the political divide in our country, I thought we would start off with a few statistics about that. So from Gallup 2021, 80% of US adults say Americans are greatly divided on the most important values about what's important in life, while 18% say that our country is united. 72% of Republicans and 62% of Democrats say the opposing party is immoral and more immoral than other Americans, which shows a significant strong affective polarization or dislike of the other side. And that's from the Pew Research Center 2022. And finally, a majority of Americans say polarization is harming our country. For example, the Listen First Project cites polling, which says that 87% of Americans say political polarization is a threat to America. And 86% say that they just feel completely exhausted by this level of division. And again, that's from the Listen First Project 2026. Those statistics are probably no surprise to you. They certainly weren't surprising in many ways to me. So I guess I'm undoing my startling statistic, but it does highlight the fact that our country remains significantly divided. And today's episode of Civility Matters is to look at this concept of us versus them and how we might be able to navigate ourselves away from such a strong polarization. So today's guest is Dr. Tanya Israel. And let me tell you a little bit about her and her expertise. Dr. Tanya Israel is a professor emeritus of counseling psychology at UC Santa Barbara and award-winning author of Beyond Your Bubble How to Connect Across the Political Divide and Facing the Fracture, How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation. She has received honors from Congress, the California State Legislature, and the American Psychological Association. And she has shared her expertise on bridging divides with the Today Show, the New York Times, NPR, and dozens of other media outlets. But as I have told her, that was all really the warm-up band for the featured event, which is the Civility Matters podcast. You can hear more from her on her podcast, Ready to Be Strong, and also 10x talks that she has done, such as How to Win a Political Argument, or my favorite, what Halibut Fajitas taught me about bridging the political divide. Let's all give a very warm welcome to Civility, a civility matters welcome to Dr. Tanya Israel.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Hello, John. It's so good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

It's good to see you. Oh my gosh, did we hear that the large audience was clapping there? So it's just amazing the far reach that we have. So as we get started, I would like to ask if you could share one fun fact about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Oh, oh, what a great question. Well, I am uh I am a huge Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan. I mean, I I realize I have here's Buffy right here, always looking over my shoulder, making sure I am slaying the demons. Uh and actually, um, well, spoiler alert, I end my most recent book with a speech from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And my my podcast is named after that speech. I am uh I'm a huge fan, and it just seeps into everything that I do.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

There we go. Great. Well, um, thank you for that. I'm I look forward to hearing more about your um connection to Buffy.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Um, that could be a whole separate episode.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

We'll have to do a whole separate episode on that. Um okay, so um let's start with um having you tell the listeners about your expertise um in regard to you know civility and the political divide and how you came to specialize in that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So um I am a counseling psychologist, which is how we met, and I was a professor of counseling psychology for for um 27 years until I retired last year. So a lot of what I did was on LGBTQ psychology. I was really interested in how do we best help people who are vulnerable or on the margins, and uh, but I also did things like teaching listening skills and stuff. And so after the 2016 election, I was like, we are not doing a good job in this country of connecting across the divide. And I thought, all right, I've been teaching listening skills for all these years. I've had lots of opportunity to connect with people who disagree with me in my work on LGBTQ psychology. And I thought maybe there's something I can do to help. And so that's when I started creating resources for people. I started with something that I call the flow chart that will resolve all political conflict in our country. Like spoiler alert, it has not yet resolved all the countries. I think it's just a distribution issue. So everyone should just get it for free for my website and send it to everybody they know, and then we're gonna be just fine. Great. Yeah. So anyway, so I made workshops and I made books, and so that's really how I've um gotten focused on this area of how do we navigate political division?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Great, great. Um, well, I want to talk more about your books in a little bit greater depth, but first I wanted to ask in terms of your um, you know, expertise and how it can apply to the workplace, um, and just also more generally from your own experience too, what's one experience that most changed how you think about your work and about people at work?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

So we're gonna go back a few years to the mid-90s.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Oh, yeah, I know. So rewind, um, I started a group to bring together pro-choice and pro-life people to have dialogue with each other. And I've apparently always been an optimist because I thought, well, this will, you know, we'll just do this and this will be great. And the fact is, it was great because we brought together the people from each side who wanted to actually have a conversation with each other. And it was a transformational experience for me. It didn't change anything about how I felt about abortion, but it changed so much about how I felt about people who disagreed with me on it. And yeah, it was it was incredible because what I realized I had been doing before that was I was evaluating their conclusions based on my values and my experiences. And then their conclusions didn't make any sense. But when I heard them talk about their own experiences, their own values, and I could see then how their conclusions led very clearly from those things. And I gained so much insight, and it it just made it possible and easier for me to be respectful toward them, to be um understanding toward them, and to not think of them in these narrow, stereotypical and really skewed ways that I had been.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Sort of judgments about them simply based on belief without understanding, you're sure saying where that belief came from.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

And seeing them as whole people, and then therefore that perspective taking allowed you to have a different view of them. Yeah, exactly. Cool, which probably served as the foundation for books. Oh, look at that. I just happened to have your books here. Your books Beyond the Bubble and Facing the Fracture. Was that not a good plug? Huh? Um, so let's let's start with describing your work in Beyond the Bubble.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Sure. So as I was creating resources um and I did the flow chart, and then I was like, oh, maybe people just don't know how to do the skills that I'm suggesting they do in the flow chart. So I made a workshop that was to help people to develop skills like how to listen and perspective taking and how to tell your story. And then people just kept wanting more. So I was like, all right, I guess I'm just gonna write it all down and make a book. So I wrote this book, Beyond Your Bubble, which is very much about how to have dialogue across political differences. And some people were like, this is great, it's exactly what I need, because I provide, you know, like here's examples of what this looks like and all of this, and people could really get a handle on it and see how it'd be useful. So some people loved it. And then some people said, Well, it's all very well and good that you wrote this book about how to have dialogue, but I don't want to talk to those people, but I'm but I'm still kind of losing it. So what do you have for me? And so I was like, all right, this is a great question. And when I listened to the challenges that people were facing in this time of division, I was like, I can see, especially as a psychologist, what people need to support their mental health, their relationships with other people, and actually even our democracy. And so facing the fracture really does look at all of these different things that are challenges for us. And how can we not only like get through this time of division, but how can we actually take advantage of these opportunities to develop skills and abilities and relationships and communities and a democracy that are going to really help us to thrive in the future?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Uh-huh. So laying the foundation for both individual emotional intelligence, but also then being able to have what's that thing called, empathy for other people and being able to kind of remind ourselves of the fact that like um there's we have more in common if we step back and realize in terms of what we want as society. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

And we're actually stronger together than we are when we're divided. Uh so it helps. And you know, there's even things like there's so much talk right now about what do we do about cell phones and about social media. And yeah, it's one of the things that's really contributing to political division. But even if there weren't political division, it's having an impact on us and it's having an impact on our mental health. There are some good things, but there's a lot that's problematic. So this is one of the opportunities that I'm seeing. It's like if political division can bring our attention to an issue like how do we consume news wisely? How do we deal with social media intentionally, then that's not only going to help us in terms of how we navigate these difficult times, but it's also gonna just it's it's a social issue that it's the time for us to figure out. And this can bring our attention to that.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

That's a great point, I think, that it's a that the political division is more kind of a symptom of a much larger issue, which is the role that cell phones and social media are playing in our lives and the stress or havoc that they can create. So many people in our culture feel as if we're divided into two camps only: Democrat or Republican. But the Pew Research Center actually found that there were nine different groups along the political continuum. And it was actually in a presentation you gave at the American Psychological Association a few years ago, where I was in attendance, one of the biggest fans. Um, and it I was shocked to hear about this. So, can you talk about this reality of division in our society?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Absolutely, yes. And this is something that has been found across a number of studies. There's the the Pew Research folks have found this. Also, the organization More in Common, which is just one of my if if people want to find really good research about where we actually are as a society in terms of political division, go to the More in Common website. It's so good. Um, but one of the things that they found, they're like, okay, well, what if we look at all these different characteristics of people? Let's look at their values and their voting behavior and their opinions about things, and we'll see how people cluster together. And they found that indeed there are some people who are, you know, farther on the political right. There are some people who are farther on the political left. And then you've got like traditional Democrats, traditional Republicans. Most people are in what they call the exhausted majority. Yes. And you know how exhausted people are, and what they're exhausted by is actually the vitriol that they're hearing between people on the left and the right. And it's making them check out of politics, check out of our democracy. They don't want to vote, they don't want to hear anything about it or have anything to do with it. And here's the most interesting thing about that group, the exhausted majority, because you would think, wow, well, then they are the least informed people in our society. Like, like, would we even want them voting, you know, if they don't really know what's going on? Shouldn't we pay attention to those people on the left and the right who are the news junkies who have the news on constantly in the background at home and in the car? So when you ask people about what they know about people on the other side of the political spectrum, people on the left and the right have what we call a perception gap. That people think that folks on the other side are way more extreme than they actually are. They also think that they're more hostile than they actually are. They don't know like what's the demographic composition of people in the other party, and they think that people in the other political party are more willing to subvert democratic norms than they actually are. And when we think that other people are going to subvert democracy, then we're like, oh, well, well, we'd better do it too. We better get out in front of that. And so so what we see is that there's this perception gap where we're misperceiving people on the other side of the political spectrum. Do you know who has the most accurate perception of people on those extremes?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Please tell us.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

It's the people in the middle, it's the exhausted majority. The people who are watching the least news, and when they're watching news, they're not watching cable news, they're watching network news. And but these are the people who are like, oh yeah, I know what people on either side think. I don't think that they're that extreme. I think, you know, they have an accurate perception. So this says to me, we think that the more news we watch, the more informed we're going to be. But it turns out that the more immersed we get in the news, then the less accurate our perception of people who disagree with us about that news.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So that sounds like a great teeup. Nicely done. To my next question, which is about cognitive biases. So this is kind of what you're talking about. What are some examples of cognitive bias and the role they play in keeping us divided?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Now we're psychologists, so I believe we're legally required to talk about cognitive bias.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Absolutely. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

So there are three biases. So I think about cognitive bias as flaws in our operating system that cause us to perceive ourselves and other people in a skewed way. It distorts our perception. So one of these cognitive biases that really contributes to political polarization is called confirmation bias. This is the one where we focus on information that supports what we already believe to be true, and we ignore or dismiss information that conflicts with our existing beliefs. So this is one that leads us to be very certain that we are right and that they are wrong because we just keep seeing the news that says we're right, because that's what we're choosing to see. And somebody says, Yeah, but what about this other thing? And we're like, Well, I've never heard of that, I've never seen that. That can't possibly be true. And the more we see something and the more we hear it, the more we true we think it is. So that's one of them is confirmation bias. Another one is called naive realism. And naive realism is where we think that we are objective, and people who disagree with us are biased. We all think this. Um we can't possibly all be right. Um, although it turns out we are all right. We're all right in thinking that people are biased. We're just wrong in thinking that we're objective. We all have some bias. Right. Sorry. Um, but I'll tell you the bias that I think is most corrosive in our society right now is one called motive attribution asymmetry. This is the one, yeah, I know. It's quite a mouthful. It's very mouthful, yeah. It's the one where we think that we are motivated by benevolence, by protecting vulnerable people. We are motivated by good. And people on the other side, they are selfish, they are corrupt, and they are hostile. And this is the one, it's so whatever they're doing, it's not about what they do, it's about what we think is behind it. What do we think is motivating it? And that's where that's where I think incivility really rears its ugly head. Because we don't just, you know, the other ones we think they're stupid and biased, but this is the one where we think they're evil.

unknown 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And if you think someone's evil, then you're like, not only should I not be civil with them, but I should take them down. I should, you know, be battling against them.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Uh huh. Okay. And the name of that bias again is motivational.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Motive attribution. Asymmetry. I think we really kind of missed an opportunity here because they could have called it like motive attribution dissimilarity and then it would have been mad. And I think that would have made that would have been members.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

But I think that that's such, yes, that's I think such uh an important focus on that bias. Because if you believe that these other people are evil and they're trying to spread evil, well then you just feel ethically and morally compelled that you have to do everything you can to block them, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yes, exactly, exactly. Because you think that they're trying to harm you and the people you are trying to protect.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yes, right, right. So um given the cognitive biases you just described, um, and we think about that that can lead to um incivility. Maybe just describe a little bit of how it leads to incivility, you know, in politics, but more generally in our lives and how that plays out in workplaces. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

You know, I think you really nailed it when you said people feel like they're morally and ethically obligated to to fight against that. And so that really relates to this sort of tribalism that we're seeing in our society right now, that relates to our political stances or our ideologies, you might think about it. And so people evolved, humans evolved living in these small groups of people or tribes where, you know, we're like, we're in one tribe, you're in another tribe, you're trying to kill us, and we're trying to protect each other. And so, and and then we're really using, you know, that's when our brains developed as humans. So that's kind of the way we perceive the world. Well, we're we're overlaying that tribal nature that we have onto our political and social uh divisions right now. So this has to do with, you know, when you talk about the workplace, people are like, well, we shouldn't be talking about politics in the workplace. We should keep politics out of the workplace. Like maybe you're gonna have a disagreement with your cousin or with your friend. Um, but let's just we leave that at the door, you know, when we come into work. But people come into work and they have conversations like, what did you do this weekend? Um, and people have done things that have that have tribal signifiers, you know. Oh, I went to a a same-gender wedding, or I, you know, went hunting. You know, people have, and these lead people to think, oh my gosh, you're in that tribe. Right. Um, people sometimes drive to work in a car. That, you know, is it an electric vehicle? Is it a pickup truck? Is it a minivan? Like, like who are you? And maybe you got a bumper sticker on your car, and then we're going to know even more about you. So these tribal markers set people off. I mean, people can't even walk by somebody's house with a lawn sign on it without freaking out these days, you know. So we um so we're having these visceral reactions sometimes to these markers that we're seeing in people, and we're trying to figure out are you in my tribe or are you trying to kill me? And uh so it it becomes much more heated. So there's that, there's that part of it, which is, you know, that affects our working relationships. But there's another thing, too, that I think is really important in the workplace. People are, and again, I'm gonna go back to what we're doing with our phones, like and social media. People are on their phones and social media a ton. And a lot of that right now is about politics. So people are really drawn to it. They have to know what's going on right away because they have to have an opinion about it, and they have to then express that opinion to show that they're in this tribe or that tribe. So it's really drawing people a lot away from, I mean, frankly, from their from their goals, from their productivity, from their relationships with other people in the workplace, in their homes, in their community. And so all of um the incivility that we're having because of our political division, it's it's corrosive on so many levels in terms of just being able to live our lives um in a world with other people.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Well, I think that this is such an important point because, again, we know kind of from research that the more activated people get emotionally, the less they're able to access rational ability. And so when you talk about people getting so activated uh and that these are immoral people, they're trying to kill me, they're trying to take out members of my tribe, that's going to lead people to get more to their emotions. Um absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And interestingly, the more we are afraid uh for our lives, which you know, people really are these days, um, then the more biased we get toward other people. Like it really activates our biases.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Right, right. Um, so I I wonder if um, you know, we looking ahead now with our society as it is, um, you know, what do we need to do to try to reclaim civility around these issues or what coping skills? I know you have a chocolate block, your books are chock a black full of them, but could you maybe highlight one or two that listeners could use? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Well, I I know I keep coming back to social media because I feel like if we're getting all of this toxic input, it's really hard for us to get to some level of equilibrium, even to start with. So I'm gonna say, everybody, just right now, turn off your news notifications. Like you don't need to know that right now. Um, and and when you do look at the news, notice what the narrative is. Notice not only the facts that it's giving you, but who is it telling you is right, who is it telling you is wrong, what is it telling you their motivations are? Because your news is probably biased. It's all kind of biased, but you need to know that you're being told a story. It's not just and and that's gonna help you to understand the other people. The website allsides.com is so great for being able to see how a particular story is being covered uh from sources across the political spectrum. So allsides.com. And I that helps me to go, oh, this is why they think that. And sometimes it helps me to go, oh, there's some information that I wasn't getting from my news source, and it's helpful to you know know that also. So those are just a couple of things about how we're dealing with the news that I I think can be helpful, and there's a lot more. I'm gonna also tell you, if there was one thing I could have every single person in the United States do, it would be volunteer in your community. Uh-huh. And I don't care what you're doing. You might be doing literacy tutoring at the library, you might be doing a park cleanup, whatever it is that you're doing in your community with other three-dimensional human beings, that's going to be beneficial for your own mental health, for your community, and ultimately for our democracy.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Um, so we are growing short on time, but I do want to ask you this important question, which is um, given all the political instability in our in our culture, it's hard to remain optimistic. But can we remain optimistic? Do you remain optimistic? And if so, how?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I am so optimistic. I am more and more optimistic the more I do this work. And I'll tell you one of the main reasons for that is that there is a bridging movement in this country. There are over 500 organizations working on um strengthening social cohesion and our democracy. And if you go to Listen First Project, you can sign the Listen First Pledge, and then you're gonna get more information about all of these organizations. But there's so many people who are engaged in this. We're not hearing enough about it in the news. So I think it's so helpful to tune in so that you're aware of how we really are coming together as a country and people are making it happen. And it makes me so optimistic about our future.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

So that the exhausted middle is actually becoming more aware, more active now in terms of bridging community.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Well, and I think even people on either extreme are like you can actually continue to hold your strong and even more extreme views and still be interested in bridging our division.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah, good point. Good point. So, um, how could viewers connect with you after this podcast? What's the best way to uh reach you?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Well, take a look at my website, tanyaisrael.com. Uh, it has I put resources on there. You can sign up for my monthly newsletter. I will try to keep you informed about things that are going on and information that you might not know. You can also follow me on uh on Tanya Israel PhD, and that's also gonna, you know, I try to put content out there that might not be what you're hearing everywhere else, but it's all evidence-based and it's optimistic like I am.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Wonderful. Well, listen, thank you so much, Tanya, for taking the time um out of your schedule to join me on um civility matters. I do hope that you will consider um coming back to um join the show again because this was such a great conversation, and I think we could probably have more conversations. So I hope to see you in the future. Um, I also want to thank my viewers for joining us live, or maybe you're listening to this recording afterwards. Um please know how much I appreciate your support, and I hope that you'll come back to hear future conversations about a topic that's near and dear to my heart, which is civility. So, in closing, I would invite you to recall the old adage how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is just one, but the light bulb has to want to change. So when it comes to the tidal wave of rudeness and incivility in our society, what kind of light bulb are you gonna be? Until next time, I'm John O'Brien, and remember, civility matters.