Mystery Illness - "It's all in your head"

 Guest: Rachel Ward, PMHNP 

Have you ever known something was wrong with your body, only for doctors to tell you "you're fine" or "it's just anxiety"?

In this episode of The Missing Piece, psychiatric nurse practitioner Rachel Ward shares her personal and professional experience with mystery illnesses. We discuss the frustration of being dismissed by the medical system and validate the experiences of those who feel unheard.

Whether you're a patient seeking answers or a professional looking to better support your clients, this episode is for you.

🔗 Links & Resources:

Connect with Rachel Ward: https://www.somethinghumanhealth.com 

• Visit Heleen's Blog to learn more about this topic and the research behind it: https://www.lifesolutions.io/blog/
  
  
• Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/@heleenwoest/videos
  
  
• Explore upcoming topics that are dropping soon on The Missing Piece: https://www.lifesolutions.io/podcast/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Missing Peace. Today I'm joined by Rachel Ward, a psychiatric nurse practitioner and a good friend. And someone who has lived the very experience we're about to dive into. This episode is for anyone who has known something was wrong with their body, gone from doctor to doctor looking for answers, and have been told it's all in their head that it's just anxiety, that they're fine. Rachel was there, she got seriously ill, the medical system failed her, and she kept getting worse. Today she's on the other side of that, and she's here to talk about what she learned and what clients who are living this right now actually learn to hear. As always, this podcast is for therapists who want to learn more, as we put our heads together to figure out some difficult cases. But also for those listeners out there that have felt dismissed, unheard, or like your body is a mystery no one wants to solve. This conversation is going to matter to you. Have a listen. I'm your host, Helene Bost, and I'm a licensed professional counselor. Thank you so much for being here to just share your story with us and your expertise. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I'm very happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Well, Rachel is a board-certified psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner, quite uh mouthful, and the founder of Something Human Mental Health here in Portland, Oregon. Rachel's approach to psychiatry is truly unique. She specializes in short-term stabilization for patients with complex histories. The exact people who have been told their cases are too complex by other clinicians, maybe, or who have cycled through providers without success. Now, to me, she is truly a kindred spirit because, like myself, she loves to solve puzzles, right? Yes. So do you want to maybe say a little bit more about what you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think you summed it well. It's really a joy to see when people have struggled for years and years and then see them finally have that the diagnostic or the medication or the um lifestyle change, the relationship change, whatever it needs to be for them, and put that last little piece together and help them to achieve their highest self. There's nothing greater.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I agree. No, I agree 100% with that. So, Rachel, are we talking about a mystery illness? Now, I read on your blog that you had debilitating symptoms for over a decade. You lost 40 pounds from vomiting, developing hives. Um, you were repeatedly told by doctors that was stress and anxiety. Uh, can you tell us a little bit more about that experience? That sounds really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah, I mean, I think there's multiple factors, multiple places where the journey was hard. Um, but uh, you know, the the first time that I went in, I went to see multiple doctors. We were at MIT and some of the supposed to be some of the best doctors in the world.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Um, and I, you know, and endoscopies, all kinds of things. And I at the end of the day, the doctor told me it was anxiety. So that sent me on a journey of treating anxiety, um, you know, being on mood stabilizers, all kinds of things, and never really actually having success in treating anxiety. Um because it wasn't that. It wasn't anxiety. Yeah. And um I had all kinds of nebulous physical symptoms. It was really, you know, joint pain, um GI problems, uh cycling of like is this IBS? We don't know. Um finally that started to escalate after I was actually a COVID nurse. Um, you were?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I did not know that.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, in uh 2020, I I was ventilator trained and I was working in the hospital. And so I was voluntoled to the COVID unit um at OHSU. And I my husband got laid off. Um and so we ended up going travel nursing and we did COVID chasing for a whole year, went across the country, did all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I did not know about this. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Um, which was wonderful for my family, but created a lot of trauma for me. Oh, I'm sure. Um and subsequent to that trauma, my immune system just collapsed. Um, and I had I started I got continuous hives that just wouldn't go away. Um I finally I did get in to see an allergist and we did testing, and um I got onto Zolaire, which is an immune stabilizer supposed to help with idiopathic anaphylaxis and hives. Um and I stabilized for a month or two and then started to get worse, progressively worse, um, to where I couldn't leave my house. I was having difficulty breathing all the time. And then I I kept having recurrent anaphylaxis and I couldn't really figure out what was going on. Um and then finally went had an appointment where I was in the allergist office and they administered the zolair injection, and I had anaphylaxis to the zolair. Um and for better or for worse, my my allergist, she she saved my life. Um if I if I had gone to the hospital, I would have died because I'm allergic to polysorbate 80, which is in Zolair, but it's also in IV solution. And so, you know, before before it was figured out, and before I had gone and done the research to figure out everything that polysorbate's in, that that would have like it almost killed me and I don't it it was very cl came very close.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Wow, what an experience. Um yeah, so but then following that she she f put the pieces together and found the the source of the allergen, which is very difficult. Most people who have an MCAS, um, they don't ever really figure out what the source of like of the allergen is. There and a lot of times their immune system gets so sensitized that really they're allergic to everything in their environment. Um and that's where I was at that time. I I became so sensitized that I um I I didn't leave my house for an entire year, except for to go to doctor appointments. My husband's an engineer and he he designed me a positive pressure face mask so that I could leave the house to go to my doctor appointments.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Oh, it was that bad. Yeah. You could literally not go to doctor appointments.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, it was really, really hard. We had to, we got rid of everything in our house. Um and and the other really limiting part is your your immune system gets so sensitized that even things that aren't the primary allergen you start to react to. So I was I had 12 safe foods, and that's including salt and pepper. And um yeah, it was I was very limited, I would say. And so I I went on a journey. I I think I think a lot of times as I treat patients with MCAS or immune disorders, like how the the reason I'm here is because of my my medical knowledge and sheer force of will. I always joke.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

I've heard about that. I've seen it, actually.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Um but you know, I sat down crying with my mother-in-law. We made a this huge spreadsheet of all the things that I was reactive to and cross-reactive and what I possibly could be reactive to, and just waited. So when when your immune system is that sensitized, you have to have a hundred percent avoidance and wait for it to calm down. Uh, myologist would say like emptying out of the bucket.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, that makes sense, right? And then slowly put it back one by one.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

And then slowly put it back one by one. It was an arduous process. Um, and I would for a while I was I would have anaphylaxis like once a week by accident.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Oh my goodness, you must be carrying epipens with you everywhere you go then.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, I do. I do. I have I have my R2D2 backpack actually.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

It's full of EpiPens. So cool. Full of EpiPens. Full of EpiPen.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Um interesting. Yeah, yeah. So um the turning point actually was and I because the problem is that polysorbate is not regulated by our government very well. Um it's all over the place. It's not required to be um listed on anything. And um even like organic fruits and vegetables can be can the wax can have polysorbade, or if somebody had it on their hand in a lotion and they touched it in the store. So this is why I was having reactions all the time. And I was like, I need and I was watching a documentary about um bomb bombdogs in the airport.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Bombdogs, oh, that sniffs out the bombs.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Sniff out the bombs, and I was like, I need a bomb dog.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Ha.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I need a bomb dog.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

It makes sense, right? Because it's literally a bomb and you don't know when it's gonna go off.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

And you don't know when it's gonna go off. That's exactly right. Yeah. So um, but the problem was that that point I was so sensitized that I couldn't even have a dog. So I had to get well enough that I could have a a dog in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Well, that brings us to Molly. And that brings us to Molly. Yeah. She has Molly here with us. Yeah. And uh she is just a beautiful dog. Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about that, how all that worked out once your body was stable enough to get a dog. Yeah. Because you were also allergic then to anything adults. Animals, animals, and stuff. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah. So I but I did I was able to get well enough with complete avoidance of everything. Um and I called around because this isn't a thing that people do is to train for allergen detection. Oh, it isn't. No. So I called probably, I don't know, 50 trainers, all in the the Pacific Northwest in California, asking, do you think that you could train a dog to do this? Um I found somebody that is his name's Tristan. He works with Charlo Training. Um and he trains the epilepsy dogs at OHSU. And he said it's a similar skill. Um, he said, actually, I think it would be easier because it's like a princess. Like rather than having to find it in the environment, you you you present the things to her and see he calls it princess work.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

That's so cool. Yes, I've seen you do that.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

How you present the foods to her and she will Yeah, she smells it, yeah. And so that was the turning point for me. It's when when Molly got good enough at detecting polysorbate, then I was able to a hundred percent avoid it, and then I just got better from there.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Wow. Well, Rachel, it's how do people do this without a dog? It seems impossible.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

It it is impossible.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Um I mean, if if your primary allergen is something that you can see, then you could theoretically avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Because there's peanuts, I shouldn't be eating those.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, yeah. Well, even peanuts is hard because you know, if you get it on your hands and then you touch a doorknob and then it's like so. If you can imagine, then your your system is on full alert at all times, and the the trauma from that is very intense.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Just like the nervous system is the nervous system is so sensitized, hyper-vigilant all the time, just to keep you so keep you alive.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Exactly, because it's a PTSD reaction, really, right? It's your body who's felt it, knew it almost died, and now is really sick. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah, yeah. So to answer your question about the mental health part that earlier on talking about anxiety, I had to go off all of my medications during this time because we didn't know what um Yeah, what was causing it. So I had gone off of anxiety medications in the meantime. And I finished my graduate school at home during that time. And um I started my practice. Um when I got to the place where I could, because I could also control my environment there. Yes. Um and then I started using this software to test for ADHD. Um, and I had one of my patients, I she took the took the test, and she goes, Rachel, that is the most terrible thing that you're doing to people ever. You should take it.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

You should feel how it feels.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, you should feel how it feels.

unknown 13:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

So I took it, and lo and behold, I had severe ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Really? On top of everything else.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Well, you know, speaking of medical gaslighting and all these things, getting told that you have anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Um, say, would you take a gist for ADHD?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Nobody. And in fact, when I went to my prescriber and I said, Look, I have this, you know, I have data, objective data that I have ADHD. He said, You don't have ADHD. No.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Oh my goodness. Yes, it it's gaslighting. It's gaslighting. It's like you don't know what you're talking about. And this, you being actually a medical professional yourself. So that there was a little bit of like, maybe we should really listen to this woman if she says she thinks she has it.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I took um took um stimulants for the first time and my anxiety went away.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Really? Wow. Yes, and we will talk more about that and um when I see you next. But it's it's amazing to me that this is the one thing I could not understand. I was like, okay, so somebody with anxiety using a stimulant seems so wrong. How could that possibly do it? How can you think about yeah, we're thinking about benzos and stuff, and so um, and you discovering even that piece of the equation has helped so many of your patients, right? Just to to realize, well, actually, if you have neurodivergence, uh this could help you. This could help this is different a lot, right? It myths actually work different with the brain.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Completely different in a neurodivergent brain. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Well, I would love to hear all about that for sure, too. We'll have to talk about that. That's a whole other different topic. Yeah. Definitely. Yes. No, we will. We will. Well, um, I want to just bring us back a little bit to what we just said about the gaslighting. So this is definitely something I've experienced, you know, um, not not of myself, but um some of my clients actually, you know, they come from a lot of just like you. They've been actually doctor hopping, if you will, and try and figure out what is wrong with me. Um, and get just here over and over again, it's all in your head, it's anxiety. You should see a therapist, right? And then that's how they end with me. And and many of them, um, they I ask them, what do you think? What do you believe? And they would say, I don't think I'm crazy. That there is something not right in my body. Right. And so I believe them. And so I would um help them advocate for themselves and stuff like that. But then there is also always that component where I'm wondering, hmm, am I doing them a disservice? Because maybe there is some somatic symptoms, and sometimes I feel like that actual gaslighting and stuff caused somatic symptoms, you know. So now it's not just now it's a complex thing. Now it's really something physiological in their bodies, it's not been discovered yet, and in the psychological component on top of that. Yes. So that is so difficult. You being at both sides of this, you know, being um a clinician for patients coming with something like this, and then also going through it yourself. Um, how do you handle this?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Well, the first thing I always tell people is that somatic symptoms are physical symptoms. Um, it's just that the healing happens via the brain, typically. Um and uh the I I I detest the idea that uh yeah, I even hate the word psychosomatic. Um, but detest the idea that that it's it's all in your head. Um because it's not. There is a certain extent where it's healed in the mind. But that's top-down processing, right? Like if we're talking about polyvagal therapies, that's that's top-down processing, and that is only gonna get you part of the way. And and usually, especially in like high masking women who are very intelligent, um, they're they're gonna be doing, they are able to intellectualize and tell you every single thing about their body and their mind and everything that's going on. They tend to be very high like hyper-aware and know themselves actually quite well. Yes, but they are not seated and rooted in their body. And this is where the the feeling, the the somatic symptoms are coming from. And so the key is actually to help people come into their body.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

And there's many, many ways to approach that, but um it's you know, A, symptoms are symptoms, regardless of where they originate. And B the therapy is also release in the body, not just release in the mind.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. You've said a lot there that my head is spinning, but I totally agree. Because uh, if we think about um just you know, we the body keeps the score, that book goes around, everybody knows about that, and it is held in our bodies for sure, but what you just said makes a lot of sense to me. I have a lot of intelligent women, specifically clients, who are um well, I call it their floating head because they literally are living in their heads and they're not in touch with their body. Exactly right, and so it's like a whole process of realizing if I ask them, would you EMDR and I'm asking where do you feel in your body? And then like they can't tell you, yeah. I don't know. So I even give them a list. I'm like, any of these. Um even then, even then, it's hard for them sometimes to struggle, yeah. Yeah, I I want to come back also for a second to the the whole thing when you were saying like psychosomatic, how you detest it, right? Yeah, and I hear what you're saying because for me, um it it really makes me angry that there's still such a stigma surrounding all that stuff. That's right, it's huge, and yet the brain is the final frontier of the human body. We just not really know all the things, but it's part of the body. So even if there's something wrong in your mind, it's still in your brain, it's still part of who you are, right? It's almost like people want to chop it off, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yes, and say psychosomatic is like the the modern word for hysteria.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

It is, and the gaslighting that goes with it, yeah, right? Yeah. You are right. Hysteria of the all. But yeah. Yeah, no, I can see that for sure. And it's really difficult. Um, if you trust your doctors, you trust your clinicians, the medical system you want to, and yet something like that is being said to you. Um, would you think it would be better in a case like that for a clinician to say, let's do a wraparound thing, where we also get a therapist or psychiatrist on board and we deal with all the things because they all interact.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Well, and that's usually about what I do. Um so I usually do very intense medical screening. I uh the question I ask is tell me every medical thing that's happened to you, even if you think it's not important. Wow, yes. Um, because a lot of times, like a perfect example is hay fever. People may be like, oh yeah, I have seasonal allergies. They're not gonna tell their doctor about that because they think it's not important. But actually, if you're having seasonal allergies, that means you're having discharge of your mast cells in this that season. And then when you're dis when your mast cells degranulate or explode, you're you're just you're dumping all your neurotransmitters that are held within the mast cells out into your blood space. Those are metabolized, and then now you're getting you start to become anxious and depressed during those seasonal changes.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Oh, and then it's what do we call it? Sad. Sad. Yeah. Yeah. Seasonal effective disorder.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, yeah. So I'm that's why I'm like any any medical thing that seems, even if it seems unimportant, I mean, you know, if there's GI stuff, maybe they're having like bowel things that are going all the time. If you think about the gut brain access and the importance of how much serotonin is manufacturing, 90% of your serotonin is manufactured in the gut.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yes, yes, I've heard that. I've read that recently actually. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And so, yeah, so okay, so going through the whole physical body of symptoms, but then adding on people must have a therapist. They must have a therapist to build skills and increase em emotion distress tolerance. Okay. Um, but they must also be working with their body in some way, whether that's massage or yoga or um sexuality or in some way that moves the body, lubricates the fascia, and moves that trauma out of the body.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Exactly. Yes, that is so important, right? In fact, yoga is evidence-based treatment for trauma. Exactly. And um also uh but also all the other things. I've really um seen clients use things such as um rock climbing, weight training, dancing, yeah, almost any everything where you also have to have the left brain involved, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Because bidirectional has to be you have to be moving across the midline. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yes, um, like EMDR 2.0 that I use often in clients where if somebody comes in and they just had a sexual assault. So I get sometimes clients as soon as the day after um government organization that I'm teamed up with that send them to me. And that I have to like use EMDR 2.0. We can't even go there, they can't think about it right now, their bodies are so activated. Yeah, so and a way to start taking it out of the body is literally connecting the left brain and do something with the body as well, you know. So um, I tell them to do something as simple as hold ice cubes in your hands while you're counting backwards in make it hard threes from 99, you know, and to um to just focus in and feel something in your body. But like you said, more activity is even better. Yeah, the more you can do while you're thinking, like dancing. I love that. Dancing's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Cleaning, this is why rage cleaning is is all the rage. Yes, it's bi-directional movement, it's putting your environment to rights.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Um I never thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Oh, yeah. Oh wow, and I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yes, yes, everybody does. That is so funny. Yes, of course, that's what it does, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, it's very good for the brain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yes, we have to talk definitely more about crossing the line, you know. Midline crossing the middle line. Midline crossing. I want to hear more about that. I want to bring us back a little bit to one word that you use that actually I think most people like myself have no idea what you said, and that is the mast cells. Could you say more about that?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Mast cells. Oh, those darn mast cells. Okay. So mast cells, the immune system. I I mean, I I've I've been to a lot of school to know understand the body, but even after I was diagnosed, I found that I really was deficient in knowledge of the immune system. Because our immune system, I think the immune system is as complex as the brain. Maybe more, I don't know. Wow. That that might just be because I've studied the brain more. But anyway, um, mast cells are one component and they're they are located in the in all the all of your tissues, actually along your meridian points. If you're familiar with acupuncture, acupuncture works by stimulating mast cells. Oh wow. Um so mast cells, their function is essentially to be a little balm in your body. They're full of uh pro-inflammatory things, um, which is is good. You you want inflammation, like in the case of a fever, or um, you know, when you're cut, you need you need that inflammatory response in order to release the fibrinogens to heal. And when when you are ill, you want inflammation. Yes. Um, there's many different types of mast cell disorders, but essentially the mast cells can become sensitized to something in the environment. Um, and and it like in the case of allergies, for example, they may become sensitized to peanuts. Um and then when you come in contact with the peanuts, they degranulate or explode and release all of their pro-inflammatory elements. But the thing that really blew my mind in terms of psychiatry is that inside of your mast cells contain all of the neurotransmitters that are also in the brain. So if you think about that throughout your whole body, um, if you're just dumping norepinephrine out into your body randomly, you're gonna have trouble with your blood pressure suddenly. That's why you have blood pressure responses when you're having anaphylaxis. Um I mean, there's so many different implications to the mast cells and mental health, but really just those little bombs going off everywhere in your body.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

And there's also a link to the brain, then of course.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah. And there's also a link. Um, there was a huge groundbreaking study, uh, meta-analysis, um, Cochrane review meta-analysis in 2020 about mast cells connecting, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, um, POTS, mast cell disorders. There was like 20 uh that are in this category, and autism.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Autism is in there. Wow. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yes, we could talk about that for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

But yeah. We're coming back to that. All of that.

unknown 27:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Well, it is so fascinating just picking your brain, Rachel. You're a super smart person and I love picking your brain. Um, I do want to ask something emotional here as well, you know, coming back to some of the emotional aspects of being gaslit, uh having an illness like this. Um, this podcast, you know, I'm creating to help other therapists, hopefully, and other clinicians to find that missing piece. Um, but I think sometimes we're just not sensitive enough to find the piece, you know, it's there's something going on, and it's so much easier to just blame it on this or that instead of staying, staying with our clients and keep on finding, helping them find new pathways to to reach that place where they know what's going on with them. Um, because I've seen some of my clients just the incredible self-doubt, the incredible pain of like something is wrong with me and nobody can find it. So, can you speak a little bit more about that just to you know give other clinicians an idea of what it feels like on the other end of this?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

I think as clinicians, we hold we can we hold a sacred space. Um and if someone is coming to us because they're experiencing pain, regardless of where that pain is originating. It's our duty to maintain fortitude. Um And I mean I think about think about the level of trust that it requires to come and tell another person you that you're suffering. Especially somebody you've never met before.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Um and so it's important that we as clinicians treat that with the sacred goodness that it it holds. Yeah and and continue forward until until we find the solution.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you. It is a sacred space, and unfortunately not everybody sees it as such, you know. Um it can so easily just become a job, something I do. Um, but uh and I I see it a lot, especially uh in burnout in physicians or clinicians, you know, it's like they're just so burnt out, so much work, um, which bring us to having to take care of yourself, right? And so I'm wondering how you did all of this, like healing from all this, and then starting something human mental health, by the way. Love that name for your business. Uh starting that, you said it was helpful to you in a way, because now you could control your environment, right? To make sure it's not full of all these allergens. Um, but it was a lot, it was a lot to deal with, you know. And so probably hard because you also have four children. It's not like you go home and there's no challenges, right? It is a lot. Um, I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit, uh, maybe even give people hope out there that it can be done. And and what you did, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, I wanna I the create a little pause around the statement because um I have done a lot. Um, and I've also recently been in a season of learning to slow down and heal. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, yeah, as the next next stage of healing is is to take it easy. Take it easy, yeah. Um, and so like yes, I've done a lot and I've started a company and I had a lot of kids and all the all those things, and there are a lot healing can look a lot of ways. It doesn't need to look the way that I did it.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Um each I mean each person's journey is unique. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

And um, I'm so grateful for the people that did cross your path that were actually really empathetic clinicians, right? That helped you in the end figure this thing out because you did. You actually, with other people that helped you, saved your own life here by figuring it out.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I don't know that I found empathetic clinicians to help me. You didn't. No. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Wow, that is a hard thing to hear. Yeah. You know, because you're not alone. Yeah. I've definitely had some of my clients say, I do not trust the medical profession at all anymore. Yeah. I will not go see a doctor, right? And I want to encourage them, oh, let's let's try more things. Let's go to OHSU. Yeah. Something so we can figure this out. And they're just terrified of doctors at this point or really hurt, really angry, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Well, and that's that's why I opened my clinic actually. Is it we we we approach care so differently there. Um, and I wanted to create the space that I couldn't find.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Um, so that's part of the reason, you know, we have uh we have a couple other clinicians there. Um and why I hold the space for the the complex case stabilization. Because when you're when you're a provider, there's kind of a balancing. When you're a provider, you need to the clinic needs to make money at the end of the day. Like we we have to feed our families too.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Right. It's a business.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

It's a business, yeah. Um and so somebody has to hold hold the space where you're doing appointments, right? And if everybody is is the moneymaker, if everybody is holding that space and turning things through quickly, there's nobody to hold the space for complexity. Because complexity takes time.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

It does.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Takes a lot of time.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

And time is money.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

And time is money. Right. Yeah. And so we don't make as many, much money as we would. We could, I guess, but that's not what I value. Right. Um healing happens in in that space. And there you can't have healing if you also have speed. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

It makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah. Yes. And in the same sense, then calming your client down to let's it's take it slow. Tell me everything. Tell me everything you think is maybe not even important, like you said before, right? And um, and just taking the time to be there for them. It is it's really important. I see it as a therapist all the time. It's sometimes I have to let the next client know that I've got to bump them a little bit because this client needs more than I can give them an hour, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Well, and healing doesn't happen on the clock, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

It doesn't. Exactly. It doesn't, yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Wow, yeah. And um, I have some experience with your clinic, and yes, I can say truly, what you said is true. It feels like a place where people are hurt. Where um, and we'll talk more about my daughter actually has gone to your clinic and she had the same kind of puzzle piece uh missing, and you actually helped us find that, which is amazing. Um, so I'm so glad you started that clinic. I'm so glad that you hold that space for people of we're gonna find it, it's all relevant, right? None of this is just something that doesn't matter. I'm gonna listen. Um, yeah, and uh maybe a word for clinicians out there. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I would say find the thing that brings you joy to come to work because then you'll have the energy to continue like a dog with a bone. Right. Um Yeah, we need the resilience ourselves. The resilience, yeah. But then also creating a lot of space for yourself outside of work because the healing can't happen if you like you can't provide that space for somebody if you haven't already provided it for yourself first.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah, very true, very true. Yes, something I'm still struggling with is to calm things down and also take the time to race. And so we will definitely have to talk more about that. Yeah, sure. So many topics that we want to cover. Yeah, so many. Well, I'm so grateful for you just being here today and just talking to me about this. I think it's a very emotional topic, that of MS3 illness, where there's just no answers. Um, a heavy topic too, you know. And so thank you for just giving us a little bit of a um a look on both sides of the desk, you know, if you will. Both sides. That was actually super interesting and helpful. And um, I hope to have you back here. Thank you again so much. It's a big topic, and I appreciate that, Rachel. Yeah, happy to be here. Well, you guys who are listening, uh, you can find Rachel's blog post about her journey. Um, wonderful blog post. She's a good writer, it's totally worth reading. Uh, learn more about her practice at somethinghumanhealth.com, right? Somethinghumanhealth.com. And I will provide links for all of that in the show notes below. And um until next time, I'm Helene Burst, and this is Missy.