The Missing Piece: Cracking Therapy's Toughest Cases

Everyone Loves Mr. Nice Guy (But No One Knows His Pain)

• Heleen Woest • Episode 3

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 In this episode of The Missing Piece, we dive deep into the "Mr. Nice Guy" profile with our guest, Licensed Professional Counselor Dillon Robertson. We discuss the men who have spent their entire lives showing up for everyone else while neglecting their own needs. We clarify that this isn't a weakness, but a learned behavior—one that can quietly erode relationships and build deep-seated resentment. Listen in to discover what this pattern looks like, where it originates, and actionable steps to break the cycle while remaining true to yourself. Connect with Us:

· Guest Bio & Contact (Dillon Robertson ): https://www.waypointpdx.com/dillon-robertson

· Support Groups: https://www.lifesolutions.io/groups  

· Blog: https://www.lifesolutions.io/blog 

· Podcast Page: https://www.lifesolutions.io/podcast



Welcome And Guest Background

Welcome to the Missing Peace. Today I'm joined by a licensed professional counsellor who is also a very good friend, Dylan Robertson. He works with a very specific kind of man, one who has spent his whole life showing up for everyone else, and somewhere along the way forgot to show up for himself. We're talking about the Mr. Nice Guy, not a bad man, most certainly not a weak man, but a man who learned earlier that faith and beliefs don't matter. And that belief quietly destroys relationships, breeds resentment, and keeps him trapped in a cycle he can't even make. Today we're getting into what that pattern actually looks like, where it comes from, and what it takes to finally break free from it without becoming someone you're not. If any part of this sounds familiar, or if you have encountered clients like this, then this episode is for you. Let's get into it. I'm joined by my colleague, Dylan Robertson. Dylan is a licensed professional counselor at Waypoint Counseling Services in Tiger. He is part of the BIPOC community and identifies as male. Do I have that right? Yes. He works with teens and young adults, and he is one of the rare therapists who loves to work with couples. Who knew? Um, he and his lovely wife, Quinn, adopted a special needs kiddo a few years ago. And uh what I've heard from Dylan is uh it was an incredible and meaningful journey, but also very complex. Um, they also have a little girl, so life at the Robinson household is full and busy. We'll have Dylan back to talk more about adoption, DHS, and the complex and emotional terrain of that world, which I know nothing about and would love to hear more. Um, but today I'm thrilled to have him here to talk about his life, his work, and the men's groups he and I are hoping to launch this summer. So, welcome, Dylan. Hi, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Of

What Nice Guy Syndrome Looks Like

course. Um, so Dylan, let's start with the nice guy syndrome. Um, the issue that plague miss the nice guy is usually codependency and lack of identity. But this shows up in what Dr. Glover calls the covert contract. So the contract goes, I keep you happy and let you walk all over me, and then you give me sex and love. Uh different way of saying this I'm responsible for all your emotions, and in turn, you're supposed to be responsible for all mine. So, do you see men like this in your work? And how do we help a client who's not even aware of this pattern and believes that he's just really a nice guy? Yeah, I see this in uh almost every guy I work with, uh, especially the guys that are married for a long time, in relationships, find it really hard to draw a line between what are my needs and how do I ask for those? And then what are her needs? Well, they must be more important than mine, because again, happy wife, happy life. It's if my partner, if my girlfriend, fiance is happy, then I can do what I want, I can get what I want. Getting sex, getting the freedom to, hey, can I go do this thing separate of you? Oh, have you earned enough credits with me to purchase this time away? So a lot of that is across the board in relationships, and it often shows up with men, sometimes the other way around

Covert Contracts And The Fawn Response

too. When we look at this through a trauma lens, you know, what we're really talking about is a fawn response. Pete Walker, he actually came up with this fawn, and he says that some children learn early on that they stay safe, and the way to do it is to appease the people around them to become useful or to delete the word no from their vocabulary, right? So, how do you see this childhood survival strategy playing out in adult relationships? Yeah, it seems to be adaptive in the moment, keeps the kid alive, helps them to survive, and then it becomes maladaptive pretty quickly as they start to develop deeper friendships, relationships, usually between middle school and high school. Like you said earlier, I work with a lot of that age range, middle school, high school, early, mid-20s. And what I see is that becomes a I'm going to do everything for everyone else if I get rejected, if I don't get what I want, if I feel as though I've done so much and I'm not seeing the fruits in this relationship. There is a lot of resentment that comes up and frustration. There's some explosive anger that comes out of nowhere seemingly, but it's built up over time because this person has been trying to serve everyone out of a, I would say, so to speak, an empty cup.

Resentment, Empty Cups, And Trained Expectations

Okay. I like the empty cup analogy, yes, because I actually have a teacup in my office that I believe sometimes with the saucer, you know. And uh and I do do this analogy of like if we um if we pour into that cup, that that cup is our vessel. But if we don't, we miss it and we pour everywhere around on the table, maybe spat a little in the saucer, but there's not a lot in the cup. We think that we're doing a good thing for others, but then we come with our empty cup to our spouse or to our partner. Could you fill my cup? And they're like, No, I'm filling my own cup. What's happening with you? I wonder if you've seen some of that, that it's then sort of like an obligation of like now I need somebody to fill me because I am there for everybody else. Yeah. It's a systemic issue with the Mr. Nice Guy expectation. So when people start relationships and they want to invite the other person in and make themselves look appealing. So, oh, I will overlook these things, I'll do extra, I'll, you know, classic chivalrous move. I'll open the door, I'll do these things, I'll pay for this. That doesn't ever change, shift, become equitable or equal, whatever you want to call it. And over time it develops into a problem where the, in let's say in my case, I or the guy will choose to do all these things. And if I don't have the energy at the end of the day, and I don't do something, I don't bring the water or open the door, then my partner is frustrated, like, well, you usually do that. What's the deal? Like, oh, I'm tired. And then it becomes a frustration because you've built this routine and habit of how you do things. And it came from that, I'm a nice guy, I'll always do it no matter what. And then when I get more comfortable, don't have the energy, kind of low, and then it's like, oh, I can't do it. Then that frustration from the partner comes in because they're expecting it because I trained it. Right. I taught my wife in this case. I taught her I'll do this. And when I don't do it, she's like, What's wrong? What did I do? Then it becomes a question of what's wrong with the relationship, not oh, he's tired. That's where the identity problem comes in because my whole identity and value was in whatever I can do for my wife, whatever I can do for other people. And now if she's not happy with me, now I feel like I'm I'm a failure. I'm not doing the thing I'm supposed to do. And then it's again that whole thing of, well, uh, let me pull myself up by the bootstraps and do better because I've got to be the perfect husband, right? Have you been listening to my house conversations? That's crazy. You never know. Yeah, iPhones don't listen. Right. Yeah, that is a that is a big problem with, and again, it can be on on either gender, either side, any person. In general, I've I've seen this frustration come up of like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I must be a failure, I can't do this, I can't do that. And I'm hearing that in the kids I work with as well, of 13, 14-year-old boys. Mom says something they're not doing necessarily right, and the kid can't do anything right. And that becomes a catch-all statement of this hurts. I don't know what to say, I don't know how to fix it. So I'm just gonna end the conversation by saying, I must suck, I must be the worst, and then walk off. Exactly, right? So the little bit of a victim thing that you throw there to, yeah, I am just the worst, yeah, worst wife in the world. What can I do? You're not. You're great. You're great. Well, you know, we have to ask my husband about that. We'll do that.

Gender Roles, Equality, And The Pendulum

Let's talk for a second about just um proletarian, right? Because I feel like you guys as generation are doing it so much better than we did. Uh, I'm from Gen X, and we had a different take still on it because definitely what we grew up with is the man is the head of the house, he's the strong one, the wife is sort of childlike and and weak. And um, but she, you know, she has the uterus, so she takes care of the kids, all that stuff. And um, the husband comes home, and from my culture, too, where it comes from, and for those of you who don't know, I'm from South Africa. I remember my grandma said, I just make like a peanut butter sandwich for my husband gets home. She's like, honey, he worked hard. You cannot do that, right? And and she was meaning it very well. She wanted me to stay married and to be happy, right? So it came from such a good place. But there was also the thing for women of like, um, put some lipstick on before your husband gets home. You know, you have to do that thing. And now we're getting into a total different subject. But I'm bringing it back to Mr. Nice Guy as far as do you feel like there's at least it's going better because of egalitarian households and people, uh, thanks to the queer community, too, much more of like equality, right, in the household. Or is this still something that maybe comes from childhood and is very much rooted in people? Yeah. Unfortunately, it is often the pendulum, and I don't often see it stay for long in the middle. And actually, you can look at each family and their generational problems, and you know, here's what my grandpa and their grandpa and all those things. And oftentimes, with especially with the clients I'm working with, it is more of the how do I figure out how to help my wife, how to keep her happy and make sure that I can go to work and make the money and do the things that are required of the male head of the home. The other side of that conversation, anecdotally, as well as with some of my other coworkers, having the discussion of what does it look like to create healthy boundaries to make sure each person is empowered, as opposed to, well, here's your gender role, here's my gender role, and there we go. Right. Being able to identify uh whether it's in a faith practice of like, hey, a Christian male head of the household, it doesn't matter who's the head of the household as long as someone's making the bread and someone's taking care of the home, even the identification of the sex organs. And it's like, well, because you are able to give birth, you must stay at home and you have to rear the children. I'm having these same conversations with my wife. I'm like, hey, how do we identify what is good and helpful for all of us, not just me, because I'm coming home tired from work. Right. And she's been home all day with the kids. She's not making money, but if she didn't do what she was doing, I couldn't make money. Yeah. She, you know, she can't be tired, possibly. I mean, she's been napping all day long and then looking at the body. Eating bonbons and watching Netflix, you know, that's all we do when we have little kids at home. Yes, that's all. That's all. I have to say, right, that I have been at home with my kids when they were little and actually for a long time. And now that I'm working full-time as a therapist, this work is nothing compared to raising kids. Nothing. And I'm working with trauma clients, right? And it's can be really hard. But I have told my husband, I'm like, you have been lying to me. This is not so hard to have a job is not as hard. But you know, we're talking about then the uh comparing, and I think most importantly, for us to just play to our strengths, right? Instead of comparing with how much did I do and how much did you do, all that kind of stuff.

Birth Order And Identity Scripts

Um, I want to bring us back just to uh I want to go hunting in the past a little bit. So some of these guys were raised by very strong controlling or even abusive mothers. Some had emotionally checked our dads. Um there are other factors too. You know, how does birth order come into play, like being the oldest child or the middle peacekeeper child? Yeah. What what can you tell us about that? What do you think about, you know, the past? So birth order is very interesting because any of the research I've done and classes I've taken, it talks about just the nuclear family and that birth order. So from for my sake, I have adopted a son, and that throws a whole different wrench into that, which is like, well, what research do we have into blended families? So that's a totally different conversation. Yeah. I have an older son with a younger daughter who is my biological daughter, who then she acts like the firstborn, and then he especially, right? So that's a whole different story. Yes. Um, but when we think about just a typical um nuclear family and what that looks like, it often is the first child is the guinea pig. So the parents are often more times more strict, have more rules, are higher expectations, communicated or not. It's that idea of, oh, this is who my parents are and this is what they're doing. I must live up to that. For sure. Then the second kid, like you said, becomes the peacemaker, especially if they're the middle child. It usually says, I need to be quiet because my older sibling is this, my younger sibling is that. I'll just, I'll exist and I'll be okay, even when they're not. Uh, even with some of our own coworkers hearing some of the stories of, like, yeah, this middle child don't ever know what's going on. And then the youngest, uh, we'll just say in a family of three children, the youngest gets kind of treated just like the baby forever. So not only is it more coddling, less rules, it also becomes a level of entitlement. And then take all three of these aspects up into adulthood. And all of them present differently, of course, but let's just say from the male side of things, looking into relationships and how that plays into the Mr. Nice Guy, it really becomes the lens in which I view things. How do I become the nice guy in this way? So I need to be the leader. So I'm going to tear myself down if I can't lead well. I'm the peacemaker. Well, if I can't keep the peace, then I must have failed. And then the youngest one, I I need to get what I need, and I want what I want, and I can't do that. So I have failed, right? Each time it kind of changes the story, but it the outcome often looks similar of X happened, I failed. Right. Exactly. So value is so tied into that, right? Yeah. Value tied into those roles. Um yeah, I and you know, it's not that we just want to say males are the only ones who have this problem. It's just like I feel like I work with uh sort of 50-50 male and females because in the trauma world there's a lot of first responders and veterans that typically have more male um people. So it's it's women definitely have this problem too, but for men, it feels to me like it's more hidden. It hasn't been talked enough about, you know, this specific thing that I had a controlling mother, uh, and now I'm with my partner. I I look at them and I'm thinking, like, they're just like my mom, they're just like my dad, whatever

Controlling Parents And Rewriting The Story

it is, right? As somebody that was really controlling in your life, um, and we always hear that we marry our parents, but I think that can actually sometimes happen to the nice guy. Uh, and as therapists, we can see it. Yes, it's hard to call it out immediately, but we can see it, and we're thinking, like, I don't think if you say that about your wife, you're talking about her. Really talking about mom, you know. So, um, so what do you think about that part? You know, just moms being very controlling. We don't want to put this all on moms. Of course. Nope. For this particular Mr. Niceka, it seems like there was sometimes a controlling even use of mom in picture. Yeah. Yeah, to quickly address um all of these things can be shifted to any person, any identity type, of course. It just depends on who they are, where they're at, what the relationship looks like. So for the sake of this conversation, we'll looking at the male-female, especially because that's where I can come from. Um, I see especially a couple of my own clients working through here's what my relationship was with my dad, and my dad was horrible, and here was my mom, and she did everything come out of a year later and was like, holy moly, I was abused, I was controlled and manipulated, I was used as this like emotional offload by my mom, and now I can't talk to her anymore because I realize, oh my gosh, she villainized my dad because she didn't get what she needed from the ideal man at that time. Right. And now, well, I'll mold you, son, into what I need to meet my emotional, to meet my physical, to whatever it would be. Um, so I think what I what I unfortunately get to work with, I I appreciate working with these people, but it does suck because a lot of these guys have ideas of what a woman is supposed to be like and what's supposed to look like based on what culture says. And then when they come up against that with their own experience, they're running into this wall of like, I don't understand why I'm not getting this woman that I want. And I'm also fighting this woman. And it where is this coming from? Yes. So a lot of the work uncovering that identifying like, what was the use a lot of narrative work. So what was the story I learned and was told, and like this is what the world is like. And then how do I look at that and say, ooh, that that was wrong? Wow. That is a that is a manipulation and a controlling of who I was. And then, of course, in your 20s, you learned that years ago. So now it's like, oh, I got a lot of years to undo. And that work can take some time. But on the other hand, I've seen a few guys that I've worked with to really push in and work through it and with their with their girlfriend, fiance, partner, like really work through it in a way that is hard and takes time, but they can continue to work and grow and progress and make that relationship much more healthy. Never perfect, never looking for perfection, of course. Right. But being able to start redeeming those pieces of masculinity, femininity in both people. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot

Emotional Incest And Parentification Patterns

of sense. I um I heard you talk about also the part where the dad was not really there or emotionally unavailable, sort of in the background, and the oldest boy steps into that role for the mom, which we call emotional incest, which is a different kind of beast, right? Because um not only do they feel responsible for her, but they start to feel like a partner. I've actually seen this um in working with childhood sexual abuse, is that there's definite guidelines that you can follow and say, okay, this person has this and it fits. But many times they have those exact symptoms, but they have never been sexually abused. And I keep looking for it, you know. I'm like, it looks like they have maybe been sexually abused by a mother figure or, you know, maybe a babysitter who was female, and then we don't find anything. And so later I I learned about emotional incest and all the parts of that, and that for a child, it's very hard to connect to mom as now I'm your partner, you tell me all your emotional stuff, you tell me how bad my dad is, you do all that stuff, and I feel for you, and you even cry on my shoulder, all of that, and to to take that and put it in a little box, it's impossible. It's then I am your partner, and that means sexually too. So even if there was never anything between that person and their mom, yeah, um, there might have been dreams, they might have been feelings about their mom that they're so ashamed of that they shut down. Yes, but at the same time, it's really it comes from emotional incest, which is a it's a whole different beast, like I said. Yeah. It it becomes one of those scary things where as a man or a woman becomes older and they had that relationship. How do you identify that? And again, that shame, especially as a kid, you don't even know the word shame really. Um, these days, I guess we're teaching younger and younger better ways to identify things. But I'll say for some of the guys in their 20s and 30s right now, like I don't know what that looks like, but a lot of the absent fathers, whether it's workaholics, alcoholics, like anything out of the home or moms that way, it became that child, that child's role to, like you said, be the partner, take care of them. And I'll even give it to both of them. Like it wasn't intentional, but they're both missing a need. This figure is gone. What do we do? Oh, we can do that for each other. That becomes healthy and normal and good at that moment, but it continues to spiral out. And that's where now we have language for it, and there's more identification of like how to create healthy boundaries. But a lot of the work I've been doing, there wasn't anything there. It was like a lot of absent dads, a lot of moms and sons who are like, I guess we'll we'll hang out, we'll be together. And it becomes the hey, we're in almost every way together. Yes, because oh, your your needs are missing, mom, and I feel bad. I'm here to protect you because dad's not. And like you said, then it becomes that emotional incest, and that that becomes really hard for. the guys that I work with and other guys I've heard about to like kind of sort that out and figure out again like well how do I connect with my own partner because I don't know how to differentiate that. I don't even remember what that is. I've suppressed it, whatever it is. Right. But I did learn that if I'm a partner I have to take care of this person's emotional well being which is the part and sexual well-being may maybe now that we're married or now that we're a couple. But the the emotional part I think is the one that's so draining that brings us back to like you are responsible for my emotions and then I will be responsible for yours or vice versa. Right which just can't it can't work. If we look at the cup illustration it's like that cup needs to be filled in order for us to then flow over into the saucer who's maybe our husband and our kids and then flows over onto the table now we're talking friends and family right and further down but what we tend to do is um throw the water everywhere or the tea in this case throw it everywhere and hoping somebody else will fill my cup so we don't start with taking care of ourselves. I'm wondering if if you feel like this is also um something that's that's prevalent with single moms. I mean what an incredible hard journey for women to especially if you have more kids you know than just one and then the oldest kid will very very likely step into that role because they see mom struggling she's trying to make a living and take care of everybody and they'll step into that role of like caretaker and let me do it for my mom. It's my it's my responsibility and get a lot of actually accolades for it. You know it's like thank you you are my number one you are my star the mom would say stuff like that meaning it really well because I mean we can all agree that that's a horrible situation for anybody to be in to be single parent, right? But do you see some of that with single parents? I I will say I get the privilege to be trusted by a lot of moms with kids. And I would say in the last couple of years I've worked with a lot of single moms with at least one to like three or four kids who have been estranged, divorced something from a dad who has some sort of I don't even say what they have. But yep, they're just gone for whatever reason. So I've gotten to work with that. It is very sad to see that because what ends up happening it's it's a little nuanced. It's interesting because depending on how the dad presented, it actually comes out in different ways with the kids. A few of the dads have put these like very unhealthy, I'll say patriarchal misogynistic ideas into the boys and then the boys treat mom very poorly and disrespectfully and also then hold that like well I do have to protect mom and take care of her. And there's this weird dynamic of I don't know how to get what I want so I'm gonna be rude. And I also don't want anyone else to mess with my mom so I'll be aggressive and protective. And it's this weird dynamic that I've done a lot of work over the years with how do we help a mom to become the mom again, not the partner, not the buddy, not the friend because again if the mom is missing out on her partner and then the kid well he's upset he's sad let's be friends let's hang out all well and good in the moment but over time it creates a habit and a pattern of we're equal. Right. And the kid doesn't have a context and doesn't know how to work in that. So it's like oh well you don't tell me what to do you need to brush your teeth you need to go eat like simple required things for everybody. It's like you can't tell him what to do. Now I have zero hygiene because you tried to tell me what to do and we're buddies. Yeah. So that that's one dynamic. Yes. And then if there was whatever the other dynamics of of a dad leaving so that fatherlessness which is huge for whatever reason then it becomes whoever the oldest is often is the one to try to bear the burden of the single parent and it it is really taxing on the single parent trying to figure out how do I maintain my not even trying to be the authority but like I need to be in charge for the reason of safety and whatever. Yeah you need to be parent. Yeah and then the kid being like well me too and especially if there's multiple siblings you can't tell me what to do I'm gonna tell my siblings what to do. Right. And then this person acts like this towards the oldest and then this oldest acts like the same way towards the younger and then everyone's confused like what's my role? Why are you acting like this? I don't know why everyone's mad at each other. Exactly we're all mad we're all hurt yes yes oh wow yeah I wonder if um if

From Doormat To Stand Up Guy

we look at Mr. Nice guy and we said it's usually a genuinely nice guy. So it's more your empathetic type guy and um as a kid if this is like the oldest kid and he's more empathetic then if the dad is aggressive like that the opposite would happen. He would like hate that and never want to be like that and just want to be kind to mom and do everything good. And if he gets angry like that then that's a failure. That's a problem right so he needs to just be so nice and take care of everything with mom and it's a parentification right that we talk a lot about these days uh that kid like you just said they became equals and so if we're equals now then um you know where do I go from here? I've never just been taken care of so it's hard for them to be taken care of. They feel like their whole identity is about taking care of others taking care of mom taking care of my wife taking care of my kids this is all on my shoulders which is a very heavy burden to the bear. Yeah it becomes this really um it's it's a it's the idea of the in my brain at least comes the toxic masculinity toxic femininity because what happens is we can villainize the one and then hero wise I don't know what the other side is. But it becomes like the this one's bad this one's good therefore I will act more like this like you just said like oh dad's bad so I need to be good. And again that explosive anger well where does that come from well I I can't be angry. Right. Rather than learn healthy language, healthy boundaries hey I I'm really angry right now mom. It's like ooh mom can't handle that okay I can't tell her my emotions anymore. And then later it comes out in a relationship two years, three years down and you're freaking out and you're like I don't even know why I'm so mad. And she's like what is your deal? Like why are you freaking out all of a sudden you're like I guess I've been bottling all this up. Right? I guess you have yeah it's like putting a mentos in the diet coke and it's like whoa that's the blast from the past yeah my kids love to do that. You know yes I I'm so glad you brought this up this was on my talking points but we went off of it. So there you go. That uh toxic masculinity right that plays into that too. And I think um what I've seen a lot with just Mr. Nice guys is that they they genuinely want to take care of people. They feel like this is my value this is what I'm here for. I'm supposed to do this. So I want to bring it back to the good and bad that you were saying uh and me and you are going to do these groups right we call it the stand-up guy because we didn't want to call it no more Mr. Nice guy just because it makes the makes the partners really mad if we're gonna make this guy into not a nice anymore. But um but what we're talking about here is not a jerk and not a pushover but a stand-up guy right and it and it's sort of it seems like an unfamiliar concept when I talk to um Mr. Nice guys about it it is uh it's really hard for them because they uh they don't get it they're like that it's hard for them to ask for what they need yeah and it's hard for them to say I've enough I've had enough or no or you know I'm not responsible for this those kind of things and then they keep it up keep it inside keep it inside they're not feeling great they keep on doing doing doing doing and all of a sudden it just explodes right now I'm a jerk. Now now I'm like everybody hates me and now I have to go back to being a doormat. So what if what are we talking about when we talk about a stand up guy? What is the difference you know yeah the again that that whole pendulum of like I'm a doormat or I'm exploding it's like well where's a middle ground? Yes. So and it goes again back to the how do we teach our children and in in this conversation exactly like how do we have a mom hopefully a healthy dad but if not a mom teaching a son how to express themselves well. So if the example is this explosive mean angry drunk whatever dad then it unfortunately then becomes the mom's job to teach a boy how to be a boy and like how to express emotion and culturally and by and large guys are supposed to be like stronger and protectors and women are you know supposed to be the caregivers and whatever it's like well everybody has the masculine and the feminine traits and it's not like a guy versus girl. It's like we all have the ability to nurture and love. We all have the ability to be strong and protect. Right. So then when it comes to how do you teach someone today, let's say someone in their 30s or 40s hey you've been this way and that's not healthy or helpful for you or your spouse push back. I can't push back because that'll make her upset. Right. What's okay then we get really deep into this but okay why is it a problem if she gets upset? Do you you know I'll ask the question like so you don't think she can handle it. Like well no I know she can then then challenge her. Don't be a jerk about it, right? Then we teach the language like how do you express this like you just got to back off. No, that's aggressive and then this person gets defensive. But learning how to express using those I statements like you know very classic communication style things like hey I'm feeling really frustrated because of this and then you open that door and say like hey how do we have a conversation I had someone a therapist of my own before say hey strike when the iron is cold.

Scripts, Boundaries, And Practicing Discomfort

Don't try to bring stuff up when you're both pissed. That is a problem. So true hey I was thinking about this and I don't want to have this conversation but here's what I'm struggling with. Right. And even just don't point the finger to say I'm having a hard time learning how to communicate right so trying to teach people I'll say in this case in some of the men I work with I'm like it's okay to be vulnerable it's okay to share and also you're changing the script. This person is not going to accept it quickly or easily I we can't control them you can control you. Yes. So how do I express to them hey I'm learning something new I'm gonna try doing this. Yes. And it's not going to be comfortable and easy. And that's where I think we run into a hard place of how do we help people sit in the discomfort for a a short time. It is temporary if you can be consistent enough. And it's again not perfect. But hey I'll try a couple times a week to express my needs. Yes. Dang that one didn't go well. Hey let me try that again right there's so many different ways to address that. Getting that first foot in and especially I guess I'll say where couples work comes in I get to help both of them come up with language I and I reserve the right I'm like I will I will stop you I will stand up I literally like get between people like hold on stop you leave take a walk you're good couples guys but I'll make them stop. It's like hey this is this is you're going in the crazy world let's not do that. What you're trying to say is this yeah what you're trying to say is this yeah cool use this language I'll straight up here is the script say that to each other look at each other get the practice because this is not it's gonna feel very artificial because if you've never learned it you've never done it well then yeah you've got to practice it. Exactly yes and practice like you said staying in that uncomfortable place that I'm not gonna die. They're not gonna die this is uncomfortable they're not happy with me but because yeah if we um if we start to put up boundaries and stuff people aren't used to that and that's some secondary gains out of us not setting boundaries so when we do it there's a lot of people usually that's not happy and um yeah I'm glad you brought this up and definitely have to get you back here so we can talk some more because we and you are just going all over the place. But with our groups I know that um we talked about this that this will be part of it like putting boundaries in place teaching people how to sit with the uncomfortable yeah and maybe even setting goals of the guys to uh say okay you're gonna have buddy up with this one and you're gonna call them right after you put that boundary up because you're gonna have boundary remorse right you're gonna feel like oh this is uncomfortable I haven't done this ever with my wife and she's gonna say who are you right it's gonna be weird. So um but putting those things in place I've seen through the years with women at least women's groups that I had that it's helpful for them to learn to like you say have the script and say this is what I'm gonna do to in order to say I have needs to I matter to and this is what I need because if we don't do it we definitely hope that somebody will see that we need that. Usually our spouse our partner can't they see that I am tired? Can't they see that I need food? Why aren't they giving it to me? Again the empty cup I didn't give it to myself I didn't ask for it but now you have to give it to me because look what I've been doing you know all that thing so initially um I think when we go through groups like this it's always like finding out can you stand up for yourself? Have you ever asked what you really need those kind of things which it can be incredibly hard for Mr. Nice guy because it seems mean it seems mean to put up a balance and as you're sharing this it makes me think well what is the first issue like why do we not just share it and it's like well there's a vulnerability piece and I don't want to piss you off. Right. So we have I'll I'll say we um a lot of the men I work with it's this odd like unspoken thing with men in therapy of like well I can't tell anybody what I'm learning I just have to do it. I have to show it. I have to be secretive about it. It's like no I tell everybody I work with like tell your tell your partner hey Dylan my therapist told me to say this to you and he wants me to work on this. And then I say if things blow up just blame me and like yep hey he made me do this. But we have to break into this world of hey Mr. Nice guy guess what? It's okay to tell your partner to tell your wife girlfriend fiance whatever hey I know I don't know how to do this. I'm gonna try something new. That way you're even setting the stage for her to be more successful in how you guys respond to each other. Rather than like why the hell is this coming from it becomes more of a okay like that's a weird but sure you're practicing this I hate that that sucks. It's like oh well what do you want me to say different? And being able to work with the couples, I can do that right there with both of them or if it's just the guy, it you know I'd love to see like weekly and like how did it go? What'd you do? Like rate this stuff. Yes. But it really comes down to the like just as vulnerable as you can be doesn't mean you're crying and weeping on each other but it means like hey this is super uncomfortable for me and I'm going to screw this up but can you help me learn how to express my boundaries like that sentence is like have you tried it yet? It's been four or five weeks I still haven't said it. Because there's that fear I don't I don't want to lose them. I don't want to piss them off and then kind of getting into that like limbic response of oh I'm gonna die if this goes wrong. Right. So also no you're not unless well hopefully you won't depending on who who you're with but being able to find that that language the person needs how do you express it to this this partner of yours that can be the hardest part and once we've kind of broken through that initial layer of like oh my partner is my partner for a reason they do love me there's just some bad habits we're gonna work on. Right. Then that kind of opens the door for much more progress. But kicking that door down of well I have to be nice and I can't hurt her or him or whatever it's like oh the door just opened and they let me in with a little arguing but we got there. We got there yes I love that Dylan I love what you just said about um giving them the verbiage and blaming the therapist. I do that all the time too I'm like just just tell them it was me you know because uh it's it's no no nose of my skin or no skin of my nose right but um but I do think that when it comes to Mr Nice guy again you know that we want to acknowledge that uh if you haven't done it all of your life like you said if you've never put up boundaries if you were the guy who was always flying under the radar you were the guy even in school we're just sort of like being don't talk just stay stay back keep the peace let's not rock any boats um then it is difficult to step into that it's difficult to learn that and I think but basically that's what what our goal is with these groups are to help people get

Culture, Race, And Modern Masculinity

there. Yeah to literally tell them I want you like you said to tell your wife we're doing this I'm I'm learning okay bear with me to have sort of like a prescript if you will to the argument um but uh because yes I I tend to do that with clients too I will say okay Monday night you're gonna do this because I see you Tuesday morning I'm gonna talk you through it I'm gonna talk you through that like oh I'm gonna take it back I don't want to say it but that kind of thing so um yeah well we are getting to the end here and I think we we have you know just touched on so many things that I have here I want to ask this one thing that particularly I think um you can tell me I definitely don't know much too much about this I am from a different culture yeah um but I'm also part of the privileged white race you know so sure um I want to bring another layer into this different cultures have different ideas of what it is to be a man right and how can these factors compound the nice guy syndrome or the struggle to find your authentic identity also you know how does being a man of color like yourself add anxiety to performing to performing in a culture that's already hostile towards you you know yeah I will be very honest and say I am pretty pretty whitewashed myself uh I'm half Vietnamese half white um my mother very much assimilated all the white culture so I was raised very white but because I am a person of color it also then plays into the people that I come in contact with and the friends and the groups I am invited into there's a couple of buddies that it's weird if there's a white person around because we're just all hanging out and it's Mexican, Guatemalan, um half American all over the place, Asian, like all of us, um especially us guys, when we do talk about things and if we can get past all the stupid jokes and we talk about those relationships, what we often find is other cultures sometimes are well, some are stuck in the past and then very like man is in charge here's the traditionalist and how I'm gonna tell you what to do. But even in that there's some level of well I can only do that if I again like I said earlier like earn those credits. How did I what did I do? How did I meet her need? How did I do this thing on the house? Oh I'll do this task therefore have I earned enough hours to do this thing. Right. Right. So that's unfortunately seems kind of cross-cultural in a lot of ways. I I know from information I haven't worked with people like I've heard with like some of the Asian cultures are very much like extremely hierarchical and the man is in leadership and the woman is subservient and that is not by and large across the board everybody, but typically you'll see that in in some of those Asian cultures um actually a lot of cultures really my culture for sure. Yeah but as it stands with like a nice guy perspective and and what that looks like for a person of color especially coming from like being raised culturally different, it can be kind of a culture shock of especially like I'll say in the feminist era that we have been in and are coming on like not necessarily the other side of but women who are extremely strong and happy to express themselves and then even where the whole culture is now is like I'll do what I want when I want how I want and screw you. It's like a lot of guys are like what the hell do I even do with that and so it requires either you have no one because you're holding these like very strict boundaries of here's what a man is or I guess I have to become a a doormat so to speak to get into a relationship. And then again then you're hiding this part it becomes resentful you explode where did that come from you've always been so nice and it unfortunately kind of seems to always work out in the way of something's been hidden and then I get resentful so I get pissed. Right, right. Wow yeah that's a whole different avenue that we can explore you know with the um just the Me Too movement and feminist movement and all of that um I can tell you that in my culture some of my family members told me you really need to go live in America because you are so such a feminist right and it was not said in a good way. It was definitely not a compliment at the time but um but yeah here I am so I want to say about that you have seen Mr. Nice guys who goes the opposite then is um it's hard for them to be spontaneous now. As Mr Nice guy didn't plan on you know perpetrating any women that he wants to be respectful towards women but it can go the other way where that thing of him not asking for what he needs becomes bigger. Now he even more doesn't want to ask because is she really giving consent if she says yes maybe she doesn't want me is she sure she knows what she wants you know it looks like even a more sticky situation. So yeah no there are so many ways we can go with this but I have to end us out here and um you know just thank you so much to the insight and your experience I'm definitely having you back here my friend because we're a lot of more things to talk about. Yes we do thanks for having me I

Resources, Groups, And Farewell

appreciate it. Oh of course if you're listening to this and recognize yourself or your clinician and you recognize some of your clients please check out my blog where you'll find more of the missing pieces of this complicated puzzle. This is definitely one of those things we don't talk enough about the Mr. Nice Guy Syndrome. Also in the notes below this podcast I put a link to Dylan's profile and contact form uh he's currently taking new clients and as you heard he loves couples and uh there's also a link to sign up for the stand up guy groups that we hope to launch this summer. If you find this episode helpful please uh subscribe to the Missing Piece on Apple Podcasts or Spotify um it helps other people also find these conversations um until next time take care of yourself and your loved ones uh I'm Helene and this is the missing piece thank you for joining me I'm Helene Hood and this is

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Heleen Woest

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